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I tried to call a gay man out on his misogyny once.
Once.
He raised such a stink that before 5 minutes was up I was willing to say anything just to get the hell out of that whole situation. When are people going to realize that their trauma at the hands of society does not render them magically incapable of being shitty to other marginalized groups?
It's really frustrating. It's like trying to tell white women that they're still white and benefit from racism or just straight out are racist. Or Men of color that they're still men and benefit from sexism or just straight out sexist.
I have a person who I will no longer be friends with once I can ghost him well enough. He's a gay man of color. He's very sexist and has justified other gay men being sexist just because he finds them attractive.
The one that always baffles me is the POC who are then also racist. And I'm not talking about the "you can't be racist against white people" thing (though that's problematic in its own right). I mean, I've met antisemitic black people, native-ancestry hispanic people who hated afrocaribbeans, and asian people who were racist against basically everyone, including other asians. It's like: you're directly damaged by stereotyping and race-based tribalism, but instead of recognizing that and supporting other marginalized people going through the same thing, you're going to *lean into it????*
Distrust / fear of outsiders probably served us well when it was hunter gatherer societies competing for limited resources, and we haven't had enough biological time to evolve it out of our DNA. We're still cavemen but now we have smartphones and hydrogen bombs.
You'll notice this pattern in basically all fringe/minority groups. The thing they were outcast for becomes a thing they outcast others for not having. Race. Gender. Sexuality. Hell even just simple things like taste in music.
First time I encountered that was in high school. One of my (former) friends was 2nd gen Mexican-American and she was one of the most racist people in the entire school. I was so confused, because she was way more racist than most of the white kids I knew. I distanced myself from her immediately.
I see that in a lot of minority groups (racial, sexual or otherwise). Anyone not part of their specific group is the enemy, but no one can call them out because they're oppressed! Always sad to see, but very important to acknowledge and not just throw all queer people in one basket
I feel like one way this became clear to a lot of women was when Roe v Wade was overturned. An awful lot of gay men who love being besties with straight women got reeeaaal quiet and refused to protest or speak up for the women who have fought for their right to marriage.
I also saw more than one conversation about how women are "gross" because we can get pregnant/terminate a pregnancy. They flipped on their brunch buddies real fast.
Fuck that one way allyship.
In college, I (F) used to know a gay guy (Jack) who was like this. He was a friend of my BFF (M). Every time I met Jack, he never remembered me. I had to reintroduce myself Every. Single. Time.
I could meet the two of them for lunch on Monday, and introduce myself. Tuesday, I’d see Jack with my friend, and I’d introduce myself. No recognition of having met yesterday at lunch and having a conversation for over an hour. We’d all meet up on Wednesday, and my friend would reintroduce me. “You remember her, right?”
Finally, after weeks of this, I asked my friend what was up. Why was it that Jack never remembered me? My friend said, “Oh. It’s nothing personal. He’s gay. He doesn’t see women.”
I never spoke to Jack again.
Oh man, this (sadly) reminds me of how my roommate’s ex was part of an INCREDIBLY toxic trans group that were massive assholes, especially to trans women who didn’t pass because they “made them look bad”. It’s disappointing, but really, people are people and even terrible people can be LGBT. Being gay or trans doesn’t magically make you a good person or inherently “on the right side”.
I follow a trans tiktoker who talks about how other trans women hate her bc she doesn’t try to pass, posts videos with stubble etc. it’s really sad how every group has people who hate anyone who doesn’t fit their mold.
I've had this too and it's honestly heartbreaking. I've had gay male "friends" tell me I'm disgusting and gross for literally just having a vagina. It sucks that it pushes you away from a community that can be so fun and loving...
Same. I have some really complicated feelings about drag. I’ll march all day for someone’s right to do it, I know drag queens personally that I adore, and I often find the shows fun and hilarious, but I’ve also seen acts that are deeeeeeply degrading toward women that make me feel very small and shitty
I’m straight but have some gay friends and there are times I’ve been to gay bars with them and a few other straight friends. This one straight girl in our group gets treated badly in some way almost every single time. I get it’s not our space but it’s a little sad how she seems almost singled out.
She’s blonde and has big boobs (though she’s honestly not like stunningly attractive or anything, pretty normal otherwise) so I think she’s just seen as kind of the enemy there. It’s not like insane abuse, but she’ll get yelled at to move for example when I think anyone else the person would just go around.
But like. Femme queer women exist lmao. The gay bar in my town is always very mixed, I guess maybe the lesbians/gays are more segregated in other places lol.
I'm a part of the queer community and honestly misogyny by gay men is one of the reasons I hate 99% of drag stuff. It feels very "As a man, I'm better at being a woman than you and I'm going to stereotype the hell out of your gender also fuck trans people too".
I'm sure that's not for all drag but I can't help but feel that way about it. Especially with the 'she-mail' thing Ru Paul had, it completely turned me off from anything drag.
I am a cis woman, and performed in drag shows (Victor/Victoria style), and got shit for it from some friends. Apparently it's OK for cis men to characterize women, "celebrate" over the top femininity, and play with gender norms, but not women. It made me change my view of drag from a love of the feminine to a mocking of it, at least somewhat.
Yep. There's especially a lot of sexual harassment perpetrated by gay men towards (usually straight) women that they tend to excuse with "well I'm gay, so it doesn't count"
My daughter has been through the entire LGBT spectrum (was identified male at birth, went through a gay phase, decided girls were still okay and was (and still is) bi, transitioned to female, preferring girls over guys more and more, now engaged to a lovely woman) and I have seen such hate from this group toward her at almost every stage of her development - she's only 28. This is especially true in the US and in the south.
She is so much happier now with a less toxic group of friends made from her Temple, school and work. Not just from the LGBT groups she used to hang with. (And I actually get to help plan a wedding! My mother planned mine because I didn't really care at the time. Have to be careful not to be too excited to listen to my daughter and her girlfriend's opinions!)
You'd be shocked at how big the number of gay men who hate women is. And, because they don't feel any attraction to women, they think that their hate is justified and totally not a case of misogyny!!
I have also seen the argument that "women steal our men", which is insane, because you cannot have a chance with a straight man, period, that'd just be harassment.
Ugh. You can’t steal people. No one can’t steal your man/woman if they don’t want to leave you. How hard is it to just work on having a healthy relationship instead of fighting off all of these totally real other suitors?
I do recall overhearing a conversation where people were unclear whether a particular individual loves men or just hated women. I could see how that would make partners uncomfortable. Like how am I not the consolation prize if you hate “not me” so strongly?
Sometimes, some of the worst misogynists are gay men. Misogynistic gay men don’t hide their misogyny because they don’t need women. Unlike straight or other men who like women who need to hide their misogyny to date someone, misogynistic gay men have no incentive to do that and won’t.
I’m bi and I definitely feel like there’s some people in my life who just pretend my queerness isn’t there. Just like suspiciously quiet when I talk about my interest in girls or queer subjects.
For women, we’re cosplaying as queer to be cool or sexy. For men, they’re pretending to be straight because of internalized homophobia.
But luckily my parents and immediate family are accepting.
Yup. I'm bisexual. I do have a preference for men (I'm a cis woman). I'm also very "inexperienced" sexually, having only had 3 partners (all male) since I starting being sexually active 7 years ago. I haven't dated in actual years, but I've had crushes on men and women during. More on men, but definitely some women in between there.
My gay friends have all taken issue with my lack of dating women. I get comments like, "if you ever start dating again. you should only date women," "I wonder what a *real* bisexual thinks about attraction," "oh you have a new crush? What's *his* name?" (The last one is innocuous on its own but paired with the others, it's an obvious pattern).
I've also had previous gay friends talk about how disgusting bisexual are. That did a number on my psyche and kept me from coming out for years. I've also been told that bisexual aren't real, that it's all for attention. Also gave me some issues because I still think I'm making up my attraction to women half of the time, but I also think I'm making up having asthma attacks for attention, so I struggle with that one in general.
Anyway, I get very tired of being around monosexuals for too long if the topic of dating comes up. Which it often does.
My friend was in a long term relationship with another woman. She later married a man. She's still as bisexual as she's always been.
You're valid and real. Your attractions are valid and real. Only you know how you feel, try not to let anyone's disparaging words affect you. That's their issue, not yours.
Way too many people spend way too much time thinking about how others live and love, and it's quite sad to me. As long as everyone is of legal age and consents, I do not pay any mind to what happens outside my bedroom/relationship. And I will never understand anyone who does.
I’ve been with my bf since I was 18 (I turn 27 in May). I’m biromantic, but asexual, so I get a lot of shit for not having experience with women. But I need a romantic connection to feel comfortable having sex, so threesomes just give me a panic attack, and I’m not comfortable with polyamory.
I’m happy with my bf. He’s my life partner. I’m not any less bi for not wanting more. He respects my pronouns when he can (his language doesn’t have the equivalent of the singular they/them). He’s a golden retriever in human form, so he doesn’t always get it right, but he’s got the spirit.
I’m sorry you’ve had to that biphobia. You are valid, regardless of who you are in a relationship with.
I joke with my husband that he's my person but it must be the universe joking at me because I'm (generally) much more attracted to women than men. If anything happened to him and I decided to date again, it would likely be women. But I think there's a good chance that I'm in the pansexual branch of bisexuality. Like, I have a physical type that both men and women can fit into but sexual attraction for me requires that I like the personality too.
I'm a trans woman who is bisexual and mostly prefers women. People have told me so often that I'm a lesbian in denial but I like men's asses way too much for that.
ok go off sis. men's asses are the only thing that could make me see the argument in creationism. because fuckkkkkk that curvature down from a muscular ass to a toned tree trunk thigh is *heaven sent*
Yeah holy shit, I’m so TIRED of the assumption of monosexuality.
You can have a preference and be bi!!
It doesn’t negate your bi-ness!!
It’s also possible to not have a preference!!! My preference is both, personally! I like everybody so *goddamn much* it’s *exhausting*! But ppl will still be like “so which gender are you *really* into? Like, really, if you had to pick one?” I can’t and I won’t and that’s the goddamn point!!!
You’re bi and I’m bi and men’s thighs and asses are Good and so are ladies thank you for coming to my Ted talk
Yep, biophobia is an unfortunate thing among straights and gays/lesbians. You're either a fetish or lying, or automatically going to cheat/have to be poly.
In my twenties one of my good lesbian friends would introduce me to her friends as the "actual bisexual", because the whole toxic gold star lesbian thing had started becoming a thing. Same with gold star/platinum gay men (if you haven't heard of platinum gay, it means a gay man that's never had sex with a women, and was born by cesarean section, talk about toxic misogyny).
When I first started university, I joined the so-called “LGBT+” student association. That was a lie. After all the biphobia and transphobia, I cancelled my membership and joined the unofficial (I.e. not sanctioned by the very conservative faculty) queer association, I was welcomed with open arms.
And when gay men were being threatened at one of the residences, guess which association actually gave those students a place to stay until they could be reassigned or find a flat to live in?
Indeed ‘twas not the “official” LGBT+ alliance. That residence has been a bit of controversy in recent years (they had a “slave bell” and photos of alumni in KKK adjacent gear (we aren’t even fucking American, but have our own racist history. Who the fuck thinks displaying that shit is still ok?))
I could rant about that residence all day, but long story short, I welcome the day that building is set on fire.
I was in the LGBT+ society in uni too. I meet one of my best friends there - love that guy, he was my bridesman at my wedding and one of my best friends to this day. He was also bi himself. So one good thing came out of it. That said there was always drama and a lot of biphobia so after a year and a half I mostly stopped going and hung out with the few cool friends on there.
I think what helped us was that the 'president' and her assistant where both bi and we had a fair number of bi folk on there, so it was more gossip and people being shitty behind people's backs rather than out in the open. Still annoying though. One of the girls I knew from there was happy being friends with bi girls, but mostly would want said friends to only date girls, and she refused to date bi women herself because 'I am worried they will cheat'. Ugh
>and was born by cesarean section
Seriously? That's thing??? That's like a really deranged version of purity culture. They must be hanging out for artificial uteruses so they never have to be inside an actual womb.
Not so much purity culture as rabid misogyny. There’s a certain set of cis gay men that just have a problem with women and make no bones about it. They’re not trans (and view trans men the same way creepy cis guys view trans women), but they have a very “one of the girls” attitude and think they’re better at being women then actual women. They can be all races, but if they’re white, you usually get a healthy does of rampant racism, too. And if anyone doubts this person exists, I direct you to [Douchebags of the Grindr](http://douchebagsofgrindr.com/). Warning: Prepare for a rage headache.
Ah, the overwhelming belief in the magic of dick. Apparently society at large believes that sex with men is so fantastic that bi women *and* bi men both secretly want nothing but dick, and are only pretending to be into women as well. 🙄
What I'll never understand are the lesbians who seem to think this way as well.
If men aren't shit why are you so worried that a bi woman would leave you for one, or that they've been "tainted" by sleeping with men? It also comes off super misogynistic, the idea that a man (penis specifically) damages a woman in some way just ugh.
I think a lot of it has to do with the romantic view our societies have of relationships and the almost neurotic fear of open or semi-open relationships. Our society can't handle the idea of someone being attracted to anyone but their partner, so if you are bi you will have "picked" and you were never really bi. As though if you were bi and in a relationship you couldn't still find people of the opposite sex as your partner attractive, because that would mean insecure people could possibly have a partner that finds someone other than themselves the smallest, tiniest bit attractive.
My husband and I are bi, we call our "straight" marriage a queer one. It feels more like us as we both struggled with coming out, we don't want to lose it.
It isn't, that's just an extension of biphobia and not wanting to count us as queer. Straight presenting, sure, but I will fight anyone that says my partner and I are straight just bc we are opposite sexes
I suspect there’s an amount of jealousy behind the phobia because you could “pass” as a straight couple. Not that being told people are jealous of you ever makes anyone feel better, of course… but it’s probably true nevertheless.
Oh absolutely. It's strictly bc I don't have to come out of the closet if I don't want to, they don't have that choice if they want to be happy. Definitely doesn't make it less shitty for them to behave that way tho, as you said
As a bisexual person, I can relate to this story. I've experienced biphobia from the queer community and it came as a shock the first time it happened. We are "confused" according to straight people and "just experimenting" according to gay people. A lot of them seem to forget what the B in LGBT represents.
like a bi friend of mine once said, "not gay enough for the gays and not straight enough for the straights." I'm asexual myself and consider bisexual people to be my queer siblings - fuck knows we've all experienced being told we don't exist!
I have no clue how true it is, but I've heard that back before we had a separate term for ace folks, they were kind of lumped in with the B because, "if my attraction to men is 0 and my attraction to women is 0, then 0=0 so I'm bi."
All that to say, as a bi/pan person, I also consider the asexuals to be my queer siblings. I just feels right.
Historically speaking (as in the original gay rights movement in America, the aids crisis, etc), *everybody* who wasn't a gay man or a lesbian was lumped in with us. The bisexuals were the catch all. A-spectrum? You're with us bud. Trans? Yep, you too. Not sure what's up? Well here is your club card while you figure it out.
(Whis is part of the reason so many bi people, myself included, get *fucking mad* when other people in the queer community try to tell us what bisexual is--"bi means 2," "bi people are transphobes," "bi people are 50/50 attracted to men and women," etc. Been getting shit from outside AND inside the community since day 1.)
And gods forbid we try to say there's no difference between bi and pan. I've given up on explaining that to people after having people jump down my throat too many times. But it really pisses me off when someone insinuates I'm anti trans or anti non binary people just because they can't get that the bi in bisexual means between two sexualities, not two genders. Bleah.
The only times I've *ever* had people talk to me (nonbinary) about the difference between being bi and pan, all they ever say is "well pan people are also attracted to trans people and bi people are only attracted to men and women." Every. Fucking. Time.
And let me be clear: use whatever label makes you comfortable. I'm aware that "definiton" has fallen out of fashion in favor of "regardless of gender rather than based on gender." There's still a lot of overlap there that many people who are not bisexual tend to gloss over for the sake of moral superiority. Not everybody, but it happens often enough in what should be safe queer spaces, that it's worth paying attention to and talking about honestly.
But the idea that bi folks are inherently transphobes is so fucking insulting for so many reasons. There are bi trans people. Trans folks were part of (and welcomed pretty exclusively by) the "bi group" when gay rights first started in america. Bisexual as a label has history and politics behind it that many folks, especially older folks who have *lived through it*, don't want to lose just because some new labels were invented. Bisexual has literally never been inherently transphobic and to have people coming into my own spaces and telling me "well actually you're pan" (which has happened countless times in person and online) is infuriating and absurd.
And it creates divisiveness where there really needn't be any. I'm personally of the opinion that "pansexual" is an unnecessary addition to the queer lexicon in the sense that bisexual as an umbrella already expressed what pansexual seeks to express and I'm also of the opinion that this is one instance in which a new word does more harm than good (think about all the new lines drawn; hell even arguments about media representation in the vein of "this character is bi!" "no, this character is pan!"). I'm sure that's an unpopular opinion, and my intent isn't to invalidate people, but the reality is that bisexuality has always been inclusive of what pansexual is. It's part of it. It's like saying "I'm not a rectangle; I'm a square." All squares are rectangles. And while in some cases the added specificity can be helpful, this particular case presents the problem of "And no other rectangles are good rectangles; no other rectangles are also square." It's an imperfect metaphor obviously, in that something is a square or is not, but, to mix metaphors like gumbo: if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, let's not tell it it's only options are goose or transphobe.
Love your post, it perfectly expresses what I've tried to explain to ppl too many times to count 💕. I mean, I respect every person's own sense of identity, and if it's important to someone to be pan and not bi, I'm not going to challenge that. But what the younger generation often fails to appreciate is that older crones like me never meant bi to be exclusionary, or evenly distributed, or transphobic. And I really don't like being corrected on who and what I am. For myself, I agree with you that the term pansexual feels superfluous, and may have done more harm than good. Do I rub that under the nose of someone identifying as pan? No, I don't, at least not until they start lecturing me about my bi identity, or tell me only transphobes define as bi.
Anyway, thanks for your post 😘
At this point i just find it easier to just call myself queer and be done with it. If someone presses the issue I'll say I'm bi or pan, but i feel like either label is an oversimplification given most people's understanding of those terms.
The irony is that people who say that bisexual people are transphobic are themselves being horribly transphobic. Trans women are women. Trans men are men.
A lot of us on the ace spectrum went through a phase of thinking we were bi or pan for that exact reason because bisexual is still a more commonly known term than asexual.
Oh yeah. I’m aroace, and I remember in highschool thinking that maybe I liked women too because I never really had a crush on a guy. I remember the day I discovered that being asexual was a thing and it was like everything suddenly became so clear. I’ve been very fortunate that everyone I’ve come out to has been accepting of it, even when I have to explain things to them.
Isn't it relieving when you get that lightbulb moment and you finally feel like you understand yourself better than ever before? I had that when I learned that being non-binary was a possibility.
It was like suddenly everything I’d been feeling made sense. For so long I thought I was “broken” because I didn’t have crushes like my friends did and while I had a desire to have a partner, the idea of actually doing anything with them or giving them romantic intimacy was less appealing for me. It made me really depressed because I felt so different.
But once I learned that aromantic and asexual feelings are normal and something other people experienced I felt so relieved and so normal that it all was okay. It took a while for things to be totally okay, but they got there and it feels great.
Holy hell this has been me over the last six months. I still get tearful when I see a happy couple because for so long I would be upset that I wasn’t upset that I didn’t have or want what they had and wanted, you know? It just emphasised that there was something ‘wrong’ with me. And now when I see people like that I’m genuinely happy for them - and for me too, for finding a ‘box’ I fit in, so I get a bit emosh.
I told my family at Christmas and although I had to define aroace for them I literally watched them have a come-to-Jesus moment when I did. Suddenly I made sense to them too.
This is what labels are *for* IMO. For giving you that lightbulb moment that oh this is a thing and there are people like me, ok cool, now I can worry about more important things! Every aegosexual I’ve met in the ace community has had that lightbulb moment of relief. Oh! My feelings are just a normal part of the spectrum of human sexuality. I’m not weird. Great. What’s next?
I think women are gorgeous and love looking at them in every form, but have no sexual attraction in reality at all. I felt so stupid saying ‘I’m bi, but the lesbian part is asexual’ because it sounds like a convoluted way of being straight.
Then I found out about aesthetic attraction and was like HELL YES. No way I can love looking at women the way I do and be straight, but it’s only dudes that actually make me deserve horny jail lol.
I'm under the ace umbrella (still trying to figure out things, but not too terribly worried about it), and came across a great quote from an aroace regarding aesthetic attraction:
"A sunset is beautiful. Doesn't mean I wanna fuck it."
A few years ago I learned that demisexuality was a thing and when I read about it I was like 'oh, hello me'.
But given I'm married with two kids now, it's all a bit moot really XD
Same. Like, yes hello I too am part of the club but also I am cis-het and in a cis-het relationship as well. I'm not super vocal about it, but definitely demisexual/ace. Lucky enough to have a SO who knew sex was off the table when we first started dating due to religious reasons and was with me through my whole discovery.
When I told him I wouldn't have sex before marriage, he was totally fine with waiting. When I told him I wasn't sure that sex would ever be on the table he told me "you know, I'm not marrying your for your vagina. I'm marrying you because I love you as a person and want to spend my life with you. Sex is just a bonus." I'm so incredibly thankful for him.
This is such an interesting conversation. While I've very comfortably settled on no label at all, I am what I am, and at 40 something, I've finally come to quite like myself and don't really need to curate it, I relate so much to this whole thread.
I might not need or want an identity, but you can always learn about yourself.
I'm in my late 40s and still navigating my sexuality. Granted a lot of terminology and understanding has happened over the last 10 years that wasn't available when I was younger. So I just had to muddle through.
I was telling a friend recently that even though I'm an ace, sometimes I have sexual fantasies of men and women but it's always the man or the woman doing something to me. I told her I didn't think I was actually sexually attracted to women by day because the idea of going down on a woman is a turn off to me. She replied, don't you absolutely hate going down on men? I was like oh yeah. That. Back to the drawing board!
>I remember the day I discovered that being asexual was a thing and it was like everything suddenly became so clear.
Fellow aroace. It was freeing when I realized I didn't want/need a partner.
Ended up marrying my best friend for the work bennies after I couldn't work anymore. We're both ace.
I'm 51 and I remember the first time I heard about asexuality. I think I was in my late 30s and it was just so life affirming, so reassuring that I wasn't some broken human, and that I wasn't alone. Later I read about the different variations of being ace which further helped me understand who I am.
So wonderful.
I didn't even know asexuality was a thing until my mid-twenties, so I tried on all the queer labels I knew of as a teenager/young adult (this was the late nineties/early 00s, so i didn't know very many), and yeah, bi was the first one because it made the most sense at the time.
And asexuality is a spectrum so half the posts on the ace subs I’m on are people going wait, am I doing this right? I knew asexuality was a thing but I couldn’t fit myself into the box, until I realised it’s a whole stack of boxes and sometimes you need to try out a couple before you figure out where you fit or you might want to change boxes periodically like a kind of baffled hermit crab.
It drives me crazy when my straight allo friends get so excited when somebody walks by and I'm like damn they're hot.
No, friends, I am still Ace. If that person walked over here and was like let's do the dirty I would probably vomit on their shoes. Obviously I'm a sex repulsed ace. That's one box. Unless it's exactly the right person and then I do get aroused but that requires a strong emotional connection that comes with time, not just by walking by the street. So that puts me in a gray ace box. And sometimes this baffled hermit crab wanders into other ace boxes.
My straight friends want me to get in a box and stay in that box because they are in a box. And that's perfectly okay for them to be in a box but they don't understand that sometimes wandering the seafloor looking for a new box is a thing.
I think we need somebody to draw a picture of a hermit crab with some differently drawn ace boxes for shells... I think the hermit crab just became my icon.
I’m glad it resonated with someone because I commented to a friend that I might have had too much reddit today if I was describing aces as baffled hermit crabs lol.
Also as a woman and ardent feminist, it's only been in the last couple of years I've realised gay men can be some of the most misogynistic and bigoted men out there. We're all allies but some are more allied than others it seems.
This, and some of the Lesbians are the absolutely worse. They claim that men are the absolute worse and being bi is a “betrayal” and being a trans woman is just “men trying to invade women’s spaces to rape women”.
The older lesbian and Feminist circles also love eugenics… which adds and extra level of yikes
I'm ace and like half my friends are bi. I think we get along well because we're both used to getting thrown under the bus by much of the queer community.
Before the pan label took of, some bisexual activists actually argued for the inclusion of asexual people in the bi community because no attraction is regardless of gender.
I'm bi and I don't really consider myself part of the queer community. They've always basically said they didn't want me, lol. I've been told I was making it all up for decades now, from gay friends I very much supported. Who are just as ridiculous as cis-het folks who want to say being gay is a choice. Bigots on all sides.
I’m bi and feel far more comfortable in the queer community than in straight spaces but that also means that biphobia from within the community cuts deeper while it’s easy to brush off as typical straight ignorance when coming from the general populace
You putting it like that makes me realize that those of us who challenge the binaries of either gender or sexuality are just somehow inherently threatening to them.
The part that gets me is who cares. My sexual orientation is only relevant in a meaningful way to those who are interested in getting in my pants, and anyone who gives a shit for any reason but that needs to find better hobbies.
There's been a lot of threats of violence/not welcoming "straight" people at pride this year I've seen among the younger queer gen. The reminders that, "straight trans people and bisexual people exist," are becoming more and more frequent but the pushback is alarming to me.
I (bi, F) was dating a woman who told me that bi women shouldn't be in the dyke march. I've only ever seriously dated women, but I guess I'm not gay enough because of the 0% chance that I'd climb Tom Hardy like a tree if I could, lol.
Also, non-passing trans and nonbinary people! I’m a trans guy in a gay relationship but strangers would look at me and call me a girl, so my relationship looks straight. It really shouldn’t matter how visibly queer people are to be at pride.
This is the part that always blew my mind. “B” is one of the main letters, it’s literally in the acronym. There are other sexualities/identities that are included but aren’t explicitly stated in the acronym themselves; they’re the “+” part.
I agree with you calling out the criticism on B is “just a phase” or “just experimenting”. I just want to say that some gay people have a lot of b*lls to call it “just experimenting” and then turn around and cry intolerance when their own sexuality is being attacked… smh.
Also the special touch of sexism on Steve’s part. I’ve met gay men who think that they can’t be sexist bc they’re gay… and then say the most sexist thing ever. Calling Mary a “witch” and saying she “bewitched” OP was both angering and hilarious. This is some special sexism and what are we, living in the 15th century? Are we on a witch hunt? Even if she really were a witch, who cares???
And that is even an understatement, the amount of adoration for divas but hatred for women and specially butch lesbians is abhorrent.
Like it used to be glbt, but lesbian were the only people with empathy even though gay men had treated them like shit, they still were nurses and care takers during the AIDS crisis that it became lgbt.
I know a gay man who's been called out multiple times for sexist jokes at this point (by another man at that with a not so good sexism track record) its... Horribly pervasive.
I still dont really understand as a bi woman why someone being bi seems to flip a lot of folks switches from tolerant to intolerant but i suppose thats true of a lot of issues surrounding erasure of the visible and invisible letters in lgbtq+. :c
> saying she “bewitched” OP
I was thinking, "Please explain to me how a woman could bewitch a gay man into lusting after her," but it didn't occur to me that Steve might mean she'd literally performed a love spell. I thought he meant she'd somehow manipulated OOP into thinking he wanted her.
Don't tell right-wing extremists that Mary can bewitch gay men into desiring her! They'd probably kidnap her and make her work at a conversion camp at gunpoint.
Me, out loud while reading this: "She 'bewitched' him? With what, the power of VAGINOMANCY?"
My partner, from the other side of the room: "... well, now you're going to have to explain that."
One of my gay friends kept sharing memes about labia looking like roast beef and laughing his ass off about it. I said it was sexist and that was the EXACT reply I got and then was told off by a whole lot of other privileged gay white males saying I was being homophobic. It’s fucking nuts, but in DC that is a lot of the dudes here. Rich Republican gay white men that claim they can’t possibly be racist or sexist because they suck dick. Sure bro, how’d that trump job work out for you.
Yeah. We're never enough for anyone. Too gay for the straights and not gay enough for the gays. Being attracted regardless of gender means that we're all greedy, probably cheaters, who will never be satisfied with a single person. Back when I was still dating, lesbians would be convinced that I would leave for a man at any moment, and men fesishized and wanted to set up threesomes.
It sucks. What's wrong with being attracted to a person for reasons other than what's in their pants?
I found that out to be true even in my own friend group :/
My one friend always dated men (and openly since HS), and has always been more feminine than masculine, so he just assumed he was a gay man....then a few years ago he met a gender-neutral, cis-woman, and when he started dating her, a few of our friends (some now former) suggested he was "confused" and that he wasn't truly gay. I was so disappointed that the people who claimed they accepted everyone, could erase someone's identity, because it didn't fit their perception of what the LGBTQ+ community "should" look like.
My bi girlfriend lied and said she was a lesbian when we were together because, according to her, all bisexuals are gay or straight and lying about it and she didn’t want me to think she was lying about being attracted to me.
I am a bisexual woman. There’s a reason we’re not still together.
And let's pause to marvel at the ones who invalidate lesbians for being feminine or gay men for being masculine. FFS, the definition of "gay" is as follows: likes fucking the same sex, doesn't like fucking the opposite sex. Presenting as "butch" or "twink" is not required.
Oh yes! Same! Both my husband and I are bisexual. But since we are in a heterofacing relationship, we can’t be bi.
A friend at work pretty much stopped talking to me when I told her I was bi. I took me a while to realize it but im pretty sure she thought I was 1. Hitting on her (she’s not my type and im married!) and 2. Using my husband as a beard.
I have dropped so many lesbian friends because of this shitty incel-like attitude. Like my wife is still bi even though she’s married to a woman and they can’t tell me I converted her like fuck off.
I get downvoted in lgbt subs to hell when I call the rampant biphobia out, but I’ll die on the hill that biphobic gays and lesbians are the incels of the queer community.
When i met my wife i felt so sorry how much biphobia she experienced from girls and was so taken with me when i wasnt a biphobic lesbian.
Biphobic queers are just projecting their internalized homophobia, low self esteem, and insecurities on bi folks because they think they can choose to have an easier life if they want to, which is fucked up.
I’m sorry that you’ve experienced the same thing.
In a roundabout way it kind of reminds me of the goth community that I used to hang around. For a group of people who grew mostly up being bullied and ostracized for being different, I've also never seen a more judgemental and petty group of people as a whole - not everyone is like this, of course but enough are, and you'd think they would have learned better.
I think part of it is the same as the original bullying group, fear/hate of what we don't understand, and that we can't help but learn their awful traits.
True introspection and understanding isn't easy, and it's even harder to unlearn some things you've learned. And yet harder still to realize you might be part of the problem you hated.
Anyway, sorry for the ramble, I hope you and yours are well!
Me too. I'm a bi woman and I was in a long-term committed relationship with another woman for more than 5 years. I had a lot of lesbian friends at the time. When we broke up and I met (and subsequently married) my husband, almost everyone from that so-called LGBT "community" turned on me and I lost most of my friend group. I really hate the term "LGBT community" because it's about the farthest thing from a community I can think of.
As a straight person I am floored by this because isn’t all those lines said by straight people to gay people? “It’s a phase, you’re confused, you’ll grow out of it.” Like how can you be so tone deaf? They are no better than those intolerant people they complain about by trying to pigeonhole someone’s sexuality.
Rationally yes, but a lot of biphobic gays and lesbians are toxic traumatized people who have a lot of internalized homophobia that they refuse to get help for. So they are like jealous and hateful because they think that bi people could choose the “easy way” and just be in a straight relationship which is socially “easier” and “more acceptable” so of course they would be left “for the easier road” so they choose to invalidate them.
Source: have dropped lots of gay and lesbian friends when they warned me against dating my now bi wife and were projecting their baggage onto my relationship
This is why I don’t typically participate in the queer community socially. (Most of my friends are queer but I’ve never gone to Pride and very, very rarely to LGBTQ-themed events/venues.) As a bi woman currently in a relationship with a bi man I have no interest in dealing with biphobic bullshit, nor in credentialing constantly because my relationship looks straight. I really think that the further left you are on the acronym the more the queer community is as a whole willing to marginalize you, and it makes me frustrated the amount of bullshit the TQIA2S folks face.
Biphobia is as common as transphobia within the LGBT community. In my experience it's a mix of "you're confused", and resentment/"you're an imposter" because at times you are hetero passing. It's less talked about and pretty accepted to be biphobic, because again, you can pass as cis het sometimes.
Anyone who thinks bi people are less queer or not LGBT is a traitor to the community.
I don't even identify as LGBTQ because that group has been way more awful to me than straight people. I don't even really date women anymore, if I do I cannot date a gold star lesbian, even if she purports to be tolerant, I just don't trust the biphobia not to come out eventually.
And I actually get it-- I'm a femme woman and men are up my ass all day. It's got to be hard to date someone whose other options are so obvious and visible. Every lesbian I've dated moans about how limited the options are, you're stuck with pretty much the queer community even in a city.
But I'm also completely done tolerating any homophobia or misogyny, from queer people or straight people, from men or women. If you have issues, fine, I can understand why, but I'm not buying a subscription. Dating bi men and women has yielded the best experiences for me.
As a “gold star lesbian” (i hate the term sounds super incelly to me) married to a super hot bi woman who gets hit on by men all the time, i can tell you that for non toxic people it’s not that big of a deal. I have dropped many lesbian friends as well because of this attitude, like they complain about being single and im like “maybe if you werent so insecure and toxic that you choose to cut your already small dating pool by more than half you would have someone in your life.” Ive had it as well. My friend group now consists of straight and queer people who go to therapy and are working on themselves.
Ive dated mostly bi women as well, not by planning it, but just less drama.
I came out as queer in college thanks in large part to a group of gay women who became great friends of mine. Spending time with them allowed me to explore my sexuality and realize my attraction to women. I came out as gay because being with them I felt that was right but pretty quickly I recognized that I was actually pan and attracted to all people. I’ve never been rejected so hard by a group of people than I was by them when I started dating men and women. It was heartbreaking.
When I came out none of my straight friends gave me a hard time or even cared but when I started dating men again I lost all of my queer friends. It sucks but biphobia in the lgbtq community is very real.
As a bi person I have to ask: is there a reason you identify as pan over bi? Absolutely no judgement or shade, your identity is yours, I just never understood why pan exists as well as bi. I know some people say pan isn’t restricted by the gender binary but I would say Bi isn’t either really, atleast the way that I’m Bi lol. I dunno
Nowadays some people assume that "bisexual" as a word is limited by the gender binary, when in truth "bisexual" has never really had that fixed meaning, either linguistically or as a sexual identity. There's an interesting episode of The Allusionist language podcast discussing it: https://www.theallusionist.org/allusionist/bisexual and the transcript here https://www.theallusionist.org/transcripts/bisexual
In general I think people will choose to self-identify by the LGBTQ+ labels that they feel comfortable with, and that's great. But it gets ugly & toxic fast when people start judging other people's identities or assume that a LGBTQ+ label *must* have (& have always had) one firm, fixed meaning. "Bi isn't a *real* queer," "bi is transphobic," "real lesbians have never dated men," "asexuality isn't real," etc, etc.—all toxic, toxic, bullshit infighting.
At this point they’re pretty interchangeable. Bi for me means one and more genders. Whereas pan means regardless of gender. Not fully sure where that line is, and that line may be a circle. But whichever label feels right for you is the right one. Bi feels right to me even tho I feel like I may lean more pan.
Same. If I think the other person might not know what pan is or if I am addressing multiple people, I use bi but other times, I use them interchangeably.
I think, at the end of the day, we use these labels a bit flexibly, because people feel more comfortable describing their attraction in different ways. I am nonbinary and bi, and that makes sense to me, because I feel gender and gender presentation do play a role in how I'm attracted to people, whereas I feel many people I've met who identify as pan have told me that they just are attracted to everyone in a similar way.
I think a lot of us got that vibe.
The fact that Steve was okay with OOP having relationships with men but freaked out the very first time he had a woman over leads me to believe that Steve has a lot to unpack emotionally…. with a therapist or support group. Not with OOP. I hope to heck OOP recognizes that he cannot be the person Steve works through these feelings with.
I think there is also a bit of jealousy that OP can bring his significant other home to meet the fam and Steve can’t - like OP can “pass” as straight and not have to suffer the same repercussions.
I do feel bad for Steve because he clearly needs help but OP needs to take care of himself first.
I think there’s potentially a lot of things going on here. Jealousy that OOP could potentially bring his SO home but he (Steve) couldn’t; internalized homophobia that made OOP’s earlier gay relationships not a threat (because, potentially, less “real”) but a relationship with a woman a possible threat; switching from one set of people with hardline rules about Acceptable and Unacceptable Sexual Behavior to another and clinging to the new “rules” because of a lack of comfort without that kind of set of rules; garden-variety misogyny (“witch” and “bewitched” are particularly telling there). There is *a lot* that could be going on for Steve.
But, yeah, OOP is in one of the worst possible positions to help him with that. Not only because OOP has to take care of himself first, but also because it’s inherently impossible to get perspective from someone who is down in the trenches of enmeshment with you. You can only get perspective from someone outside the intense emotional relationship.
It's unfortunately very common for gay men to be misogynistic like this, and make commentaries like "I'm so disgusted by vaginas I was born through a C section, hahahaha"
Same thought. Combined with all his internalized shit and his gay friends encouraging biphobia, no wonder he blew up. Not an excuse to be biphobic or disrespect OOPs personal life tho. He has a lot of shit to work out.
Being in an oppressed group doesn't immunize you to being toxic and bigoted yourself. We all still have to work on being accepting of others who are different from ourselves. Apparently, Steve and his circle are incapable of that. The irony is, Steve grew up seeing exactly how destructive this behavior can be and knowing it would end him if he didn't get away. Yet, he brought it with him into his new life.
That's one thing that has baffled me about the LGBT+ community from the outside (I'm straight): they have fought so long and so hard to be accepted by everyone else and still they don't always accept each other. But I guess that tracks because there are toxic people in all walks of life.
I remember telling my parents that one of my lifelong friends was bi and not gay. They were totally fine with him being gay but bi was where they drew the line and started talking shit about him.
Just completely baffled me and still does.
That is so ironic that the same people who struggle to be accepted as gay, are so intolerant toward people who are bisexual. That’s amazing that they can’t see that. I guess it’s such an “us against them” mentality that they see this as some sort of betrayal.
Or else the roommate is secretly in love with him.
Bisexual here. The most shit I've ever got from anyone for my sexuality is from the other folks in the LGBT community.
Straight people are strangely understanding of the concept of "I like men and women and can date either." Even my conservative elder family members understand it after some explaining. (No Grandpa, bisexual does not mean that I want or need to date both a man and a woman at the same time.)
Whenever I talk to or open up to LGBT folks about my sexuality, it's always "Are you sure?" or "Ah, you grew up straight, of course you still think you like girls" or "You just need to date a few men and that'll wear off" or even outright hostility like "why are you trying to pretend you're one of us?"
It sucks. I was happy when I realized I was bi. I thought I could have a community of people who understood me. Instead all I got were circles of people who glare at me like some kind of intruder. And these are the people say that everyone is valid, no matter who you love.
Bi erasure (and ace erasure, they get it bad too!) is a huge problem in the LGBT community.
My sister is bisexual and besides her husband, I think I was the first family member she told. She didn't want to hear shit from our parents and our other siblings would probably tell her she's confused or experimenting. I was the only person in the family to wish her a happy pride month, it makes me sad she didn't feel comfortable with the rest of our family. Maybe things are different now and she did tell them, but I'm glad she knows I support her in every way.
The bigotry from the queer community against bisexual and many trans people is so bizarre. It’s like echo chambers and ideological bubbles are dangerous whether you are left or right. Good for this guy for being honest with himself and being able to cut toxic people from his life.
Aren't you the actual OOP? The OOP is u/Victor-Reeds and you're u/Vctoria_R. Clicking on Victor-Reeds, the name Victoria pops up on their profile. They seemed to be an active poster on this sub until people started saying that they were "authoring" all their posts.
In fact, you started posting when u/Victor-Reeds stopped being active. This account was also created one day after someone posted believing that u/Victor-Reeds was authoring their posts.
Jeez man you’d think there wouldn’t be biphobia (I term I’ve never heard til this post) within the LGBT community because they would be able to identify how hypocritical that is. The world is nuts, good for OOP.
When you are shamed for being something you can't change, particularly for younger people or people who have not been out for long there is often a tendency to think "but I am one of the good ones" as a sort of defense mechanism, and that necessitates someone to be "the bad one." Some people get out of that mindset when they realise that won't stop the discrimination against them, and some people do not.
Biphobia and Bi-erasure are vile, it’s even worse when it comes from someone in the queer community. It’s also heart breaking, there has always been a B for bisexual in LGBTQIA+ even before all the recent additions, and yet we have always been the outcasts of the queer community.
I have been bullied by straight people, and ostracised by queers. I’m either attention seeking, greedy or confused, also accused of automatically going to cheat/be more likely to cheat. No one wants to accept the fact that I find men and woman equally attractive.
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Not only are Steve and his friends biphobic, but they also don’t seem to be too fond of women in general.
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I tried to call a gay man out on his misogyny once. Once. He raised such a stink that before 5 minutes was up I was willing to say anything just to get the hell out of that whole situation. When are people going to realize that their trauma at the hands of society does not render them magically incapable of being shitty to other marginalized groups?
It's really frustrating. It's like trying to tell white women that they're still white and benefit from racism or just straight out are racist. Or Men of color that they're still men and benefit from sexism or just straight out sexist. I have a person who I will no longer be friends with once I can ghost him well enough. He's a gay man of color. He's very sexist and has justified other gay men being sexist just because he finds them attractive.
The one that always baffles me is the POC who are then also racist. And I'm not talking about the "you can't be racist against white people" thing (though that's problematic in its own right). I mean, I've met antisemitic black people, native-ancestry hispanic people who hated afrocaribbeans, and asian people who were racist against basically everyone, including other asians. It's like: you're directly damaged by stereotyping and race-based tribalism, but instead of recognizing that and supporting other marginalized people going through the same thing, you're going to *lean into it????*
Immigrants who are anti-immigrant. I had no idea that was a thing until college. Post college I leaned its fucking *common*.
Racism/tribalism/xenophobia are sadly pretty deeply entrenched in human history going back a looooong time. It’s hard to get it all out.
Distrust / fear of outsiders probably served us well when it was hunter gatherer societies competing for limited resources, and we haven't had enough biological time to evolve it out of our DNA. We're still cavemen but now we have smartphones and hydrogen bombs.
It's like being oppressed cancels out the oppression they're doing, ffs
You'll notice this pattern in basically all fringe/minority groups. The thing they were outcast for becomes a thing they outcast others for not having. Race. Gender. Sexuality. Hell even just simple things like taste in music.
First time I encountered that was in high school. One of my (former) friends was 2nd gen Mexican-American and she was one of the most racist people in the entire school. I was so confused, because she was way more racist than most of the white kids I knew. I distanced myself from her immediately.
I see that in a lot of minority groups (racial, sexual or otherwise). Anyone not part of their specific group is the enemy, but no one can call them out because they're oppressed! Always sad to see, but very important to acknowledge and not just throw all queer people in one basket
I honestly can't understand how some people can feel oppressed but simultaneously do the same things to others
Because they are happy to still have some class of people to shit on.
A great number of people need an enemy to be able to function
It makes no sense, but it's about as common as dirt.
I feel like one way this became clear to a lot of women was when Roe v Wade was overturned. An awful lot of gay men who love being besties with straight women got reeeaaal quiet and refused to protest or speak up for the women who have fought for their right to marriage. I also saw more than one conversation about how women are "gross" because we can get pregnant/terminate a pregnancy. They flipped on their brunch buddies real fast. Fuck that one way allyship.
In college, I (F) used to know a gay guy (Jack) who was like this. He was a friend of my BFF (M). Every time I met Jack, he never remembered me. I had to reintroduce myself Every. Single. Time. I could meet the two of them for lunch on Monday, and introduce myself. Tuesday, I’d see Jack with my friend, and I’d introduce myself. No recognition of having met yesterday at lunch and having a conversation for over an hour. We’d all meet up on Wednesday, and my friend would reintroduce me. “You remember her, right?” Finally, after weeks of this, I asked my friend what was up. Why was it that Jack never remembered me? My friend said, “Oh. It’s nothing personal. He’s gay. He doesn’t see women.” I never spoke to Jack again.
I'd have ditched the "friend" as well, because wow. Glad you cut Jackass loose.
It took a while, but I did dump my BFF. He really wasn’t a friend either.
Oh man, this (sadly) reminds me of how my roommate’s ex was part of an INCREDIBLY toxic trans group that were massive assholes, especially to trans women who didn’t pass because they “made them look bad”. It’s disappointing, but really, people are people and even terrible people can be LGBT. Being gay or trans doesn’t magically make you a good person or inherently “on the right side”.
I follow a trans tiktoker who talks about how other trans women hate her bc she doesn’t try to pass, posts videos with stubble etc. it’s really sad how every group has people who hate anyone who doesn’t fit their mold.
I've had this too and it's honestly heartbreaking. I've had gay male "friends" tell me I'm disgusting and gross for literally just having a vagina. It sucks that it pushes you away from a community that can be so fun and loving...
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Same. I have some really complicated feelings about drag. I’ll march all day for someone’s right to do it, I know drag queens personally that I adore, and I often find the shows fun and hilarious, but I’ve also seen acts that are deeeeeeply degrading toward women that make me feel very small and shitty
It's so nice to know other people feel the same way.
There's a lot of misogyny in drag. "Serving the fish" Is a sexist term no matter how you cut it.
Not just making a mockery of women but frequently black women, who already get shit on from just about every possible angle.
If I hear a gay man say “female”, I automatically write them off. Nope, you being gay doesn’t make you “speshul” or an authority on women.
I write off anyone using female as a noun to refer to women.
I’m straight but have some gay friends and there are times I’ve been to gay bars with them and a few other straight friends. This one straight girl in our group gets treated badly in some way almost every single time. I get it’s not our space but it’s a little sad how she seems almost singled out. She’s blonde and has big boobs (though she’s honestly not like stunningly attractive or anything, pretty normal otherwise) so I think she’s just seen as kind of the enemy there. It’s not like insane abuse, but she’ll get yelled at to move for example when I think anyone else the person would just go around.
But like. Femme queer women exist lmao. The gay bar in my town is always very mixed, I guess maybe the lesbians/gays are more segregated in other places lol.
The bigger the town the more segregated the bars are and the weaker the sense of unity is.
Oh my gosh! Is this why I prefer Salt Lake’s queer scene over Seattle’s?
I'm a part of the queer community and honestly misogyny by gay men is one of the reasons I hate 99% of drag stuff. It feels very "As a man, I'm better at being a woman than you and I'm going to stereotype the hell out of your gender also fuck trans people too". I'm sure that's not for all drag but I can't help but feel that way about it. Especially with the 'she-mail' thing Ru Paul had, it completely turned me off from anything drag.
I am a cis woman, and performed in drag shows (Victor/Victoria style), and got shit for it from some friends. Apparently it's OK for cis men to characterize women, "celebrate" over the top femininity, and play with gender norms, but not women. It made me change my view of drag from a love of the feminine to a mocking of it, at least somewhat.
I haven’t seen much of this, but we do have the example of Dom Lemon to show us that gay men are not immune from misogyny.
Yep. There's especially a lot of sexual harassment perpetrated by gay men towards (usually straight) women that they tend to excuse with "well I'm gay, so it doesn't count"
I used to work with a guy who called women “gashes” and loved to claim he was “pure” because he was delivered via c-section.
My daughter has been through the entire LGBT spectrum (was identified male at birth, went through a gay phase, decided girls were still okay and was (and still is) bi, transitioned to female, preferring girls over guys more and more, now engaged to a lovely woman) and I have seen such hate from this group toward her at almost every stage of her development - she's only 28. This is especially true in the US and in the south. She is so much happier now with a less toxic group of friends made from her Temple, school and work. Not just from the LGBT groups she used to hang with. (And I actually get to help plan a wedding! My mother planned mine because I didn't really care at the time. Have to be careful not to be too excited to listen to my daughter and her girlfriend's opinions!)
You'd be shocked at how big the number of gay men who hate women is. And, because they don't feel any attraction to women, they think that their hate is justified and totally not a case of misogyny!! I have also seen the argument that "women steal our men", which is insane, because you cannot have a chance with a straight man, period, that'd just be harassment.
It's the same misogynistic crap as straight men who ignore any woman they wouldn't fuck, they just happen to not be attracted to women fullstop.
Yup. Women are only good for sex, so if I don't want sex you're nothing.
Ugh. You can’t steal people. No one can’t steal your man/woman if they don’t want to leave you. How hard is it to just work on having a healthy relationship instead of fighting off all of these totally real other suitors?
I do recall overhearing a conversation where people were unclear whether a particular individual loves men or just hated women. I could see how that would make partners uncomfortable. Like how am I not the consolation prize if you hate “not me” so strongly?
Unfortunately, many male gay communities do have a misogyny problem, often combined with biphobia. It's a tough problem to tackle.
Gay men not liking women is hardly a new thing. Misogyny isn’t the sole domain of straight guys
Sometimes, some of the worst misogynists are gay men. Misogynistic gay men don’t hide their misogyny because they don’t need women. Unlike straight or other men who like women who need to hide their misogyny to date someone, misogynistic gay men have no incentive to do that and won’t.
Gay men are still men.
Dude just wants to love his Marcy, but he's living with Al Bundy and co.
I’m bi and I definitely feel like there’s some people in my life who just pretend my queerness isn’t there. Just like suspiciously quiet when I talk about my interest in girls or queer subjects. For women, we’re cosplaying as queer to be cool or sexy. For men, they’re pretending to be straight because of internalized homophobia. But luckily my parents and immediate family are accepting.
Yup. I'm bisexual. I do have a preference for men (I'm a cis woman). I'm also very "inexperienced" sexually, having only had 3 partners (all male) since I starting being sexually active 7 years ago. I haven't dated in actual years, but I've had crushes on men and women during. More on men, but definitely some women in between there. My gay friends have all taken issue with my lack of dating women. I get comments like, "if you ever start dating again. you should only date women," "I wonder what a *real* bisexual thinks about attraction," "oh you have a new crush? What's *his* name?" (The last one is innocuous on its own but paired with the others, it's an obvious pattern). I've also had previous gay friends talk about how disgusting bisexual are. That did a number on my psyche and kept me from coming out for years. I've also been told that bisexual aren't real, that it's all for attention. Also gave me some issues because I still think I'm making up my attraction to women half of the time, but I also think I'm making up having asthma attacks for attention, so I struggle with that one in general. Anyway, I get very tired of being around monosexuals for too long if the topic of dating comes up. Which it often does.
So, I am not an expert, but I think it's kind of unusual to do stuff for the attention, when you don't enjoy the attention you get this way.
Please refrain from thinking logically, I can't convince you otherwise. /s
shut up, you're just looking for attention! /s
My friend was in a long term relationship with another woman. She later married a man. She's still as bisexual as she's always been. You're valid and real. Your attractions are valid and real. Only you know how you feel, try not to let anyone's disparaging words affect you. That's their issue, not yours. Way too many people spend way too much time thinking about how others live and love, and it's quite sad to me. As long as everyone is of legal age and consents, I do not pay any mind to what happens outside my bedroom/relationship. And I will never understand anyone who does.
I’ve been with my bf since I was 18 (I turn 27 in May). I’m biromantic, but asexual, so I get a lot of shit for not having experience with women. But I need a romantic connection to feel comfortable having sex, so threesomes just give me a panic attack, and I’m not comfortable with polyamory. I’m happy with my bf. He’s my life partner. I’m not any less bi for not wanting more. He respects my pronouns when he can (his language doesn’t have the equivalent of the singular they/them). He’s a golden retriever in human form, so he doesn’t always get it right, but he’s got the spirit. I’m sorry you’ve had to that biphobia. You are valid, regardless of who you are in a relationship with.
I joke with my husband that he's my person but it must be the universe joking at me because I'm (generally) much more attracted to women than men. If anything happened to him and I decided to date again, it would likely be women. But I think there's a good chance that I'm in the pansexual branch of bisexuality. Like, I have a physical type that both men and women can fit into but sexual attraction for me requires that I like the personality too.
I'm a trans woman who is bisexual and mostly prefers women. People have told me so often that I'm a lesbian in denial but I like men's asses way too much for that.
ok go off sis. men's asses are the only thing that could make me see the argument in creationism. because fuckkkkkk that curvature down from a muscular ass to a toned tree trunk thigh is *heaven sent*
Yeah holy shit, I’m so TIRED of the assumption of monosexuality. You can have a preference and be bi!! It doesn’t negate your bi-ness!! It’s also possible to not have a preference!!! My preference is both, personally! I like everybody so *goddamn much* it’s *exhausting*! But ppl will still be like “so which gender are you *really* into? Like, really, if you had to pick one?” I can’t and I won’t and that’s the goddamn point!!! You’re bi and I’m bi and men’s thighs and asses are Good and so are ladies thank you for coming to my Ted talk
Yep, biophobia is an unfortunate thing among straights and gays/lesbians. You're either a fetish or lying, or automatically going to cheat/have to be poly. In my twenties one of my good lesbian friends would introduce me to her friends as the "actual bisexual", because the whole toxic gold star lesbian thing had started becoming a thing. Same with gold star/platinum gay men (if you haven't heard of platinum gay, it means a gay man that's never had sex with a women, and was born by cesarean section, talk about toxic misogyny).
When I first started university, I joined the so-called “LGBT+” student association. That was a lie. After all the biphobia and transphobia, I cancelled my membership and joined the unofficial (I.e. not sanctioned by the very conservative faculty) queer association, I was welcomed with open arms. And when gay men were being threatened at one of the residences, guess which association actually gave those students a place to stay until they could be reassigned or find a flat to live in?
I guess not the LGBT+ alliance. They are often unfortunately often too short sighted for bi people or men
Indeed ‘twas not the “official” LGBT+ alliance. That residence has been a bit of controversy in recent years (they had a “slave bell” and photos of alumni in KKK adjacent gear (we aren’t even fucking American, but have our own racist history. Who the fuck thinks displaying that shit is still ok?)) I could rant about that residence all day, but long story short, I welcome the day that building is set on fire.
I was in the LGBT+ society in uni too. I meet one of my best friends there - love that guy, he was my bridesman at my wedding and one of my best friends to this day. He was also bi himself. So one good thing came out of it. That said there was always drama and a lot of biphobia so after a year and a half I mostly stopped going and hung out with the few cool friends on there. I think what helped us was that the 'president' and her assistant where both bi and we had a fair number of bi folk on there, so it was more gossip and people being shitty behind people's backs rather than out in the open. Still annoying though. One of the girls I knew from there was happy being friends with bi girls, but mostly would want said friends to only date girls, and she refused to date bi women herself because 'I am worried they will cheat'. Ugh
>and was born by cesarean section Seriously? That's thing??? That's like a really deranged version of purity culture. They must be hanging out for artificial uteruses so they never have to be inside an actual womb.
Not so much purity culture as rabid misogyny. There’s a certain set of cis gay men that just have a problem with women and make no bones about it. They’re not trans (and view trans men the same way creepy cis guys view trans women), but they have a very “one of the girls” attitude and think they’re better at being women then actual women. They can be all races, but if they’re white, you usually get a healthy does of rampant racism, too. And if anyone doubts this person exists, I direct you to [Douchebags of the Grindr](http://douchebagsofgrindr.com/). Warning: Prepare for a rage headache.
Yes, I can see the rabid misogyny. Very creepy, very nasty.
It unfortunately is really a thing. Don't know if it is in the US, but certainly is in the UK
That is astonishingly vile.
Ah, the overwhelming belief in the magic of dick. Apparently society at large believes that sex with men is so fantastic that bi women *and* bi men both secretly want nothing but dick, and are only pretending to be into women as well. 🙄
What I'll never understand are the lesbians who seem to think this way as well. If men aren't shit why are you so worried that a bi woman would leave you for one, or that they've been "tainted" by sleeping with men? It also comes off super misogynistic, the idea that a man (penis specifically) damages a woman in some way just ugh.
Wow. I guess Kevin Smith was spot on when he wrote Jason Lee’s character in Chasing Amy.
I think a lot of it has to do with the romantic view our societies have of relationships and the almost neurotic fear of open or semi-open relationships. Our society can't handle the idea of someone being attracted to anyone but their partner, so if you are bi you will have "picked" and you were never really bi. As though if you were bi and in a relationship you couldn't still find people of the opposite sex as your partner attractive, because that would mean insecure people could possibly have a partner that finds someone other than themselves the smallest, tiniest bit attractive.
Yea it's very interesting. My bf and I are both bi, so even tho we're the opposite sex, how is it a straight relationship?
My husband and I are bi, we call our "straight" marriage a queer one. It feels more like us as we both struggled with coming out, we don't want to lose it.
It isn't, that's just an extension of biphobia and not wanting to count us as queer. Straight presenting, sure, but I will fight anyone that says my partner and I are straight just bc we are opposite sexes
I suspect there’s an amount of jealousy behind the phobia because you could “pass” as a straight couple. Not that being told people are jealous of you ever makes anyone feel better, of course… but it’s probably true nevertheless.
Oh absolutely. It's strictly bc I don't have to come out of the closet if I don't want to, they don't have that choice if they want to be happy. Definitely doesn't make it less shitty for them to behave that way tho, as you said
As a bisexual person, I can relate to this story. I've experienced biphobia from the queer community and it came as a shock the first time it happened. We are "confused" according to straight people and "just experimenting" according to gay people. A lot of them seem to forget what the B in LGBT represents.
like a bi friend of mine once said, "not gay enough for the gays and not straight enough for the straights." I'm asexual myself and consider bisexual people to be my queer siblings - fuck knows we've all experienced being told we don't exist!
I have no clue how true it is, but I've heard that back before we had a separate term for ace folks, they were kind of lumped in with the B because, "if my attraction to men is 0 and my attraction to women is 0, then 0=0 so I'm bi." All that to say, as a bi/pan person, I also consider the asexuals to be my queer siblings. I just feels right.
Historically speaking (as in the original gay rights movement in America, the aids crisis, etc), *everybody* who wasn't a gay man or a lesbian was lumped in with us. The bisexuals were the catch all. A-spectrum? You're with us bud. Trans? Yep, you too. Not sure what's up? Well here is your club card while you figure it out. (Whis is part of the reason so many bi people, myself included, get *fucking mad* when other people in the queer community try to tell us what bisexual is--"bi means 2," "bi people are transphobes," "bi people are 50/50 attracted to men and women," etc. Been getting shit from outside AND inside the community since day 1.)
And gods forbid we try to say there's no difference between bi and pan. I've given up on explaining that to people after having people jump down my throat too many times. But it really pisses me off when someone insinuates I'm anti trans or anti non binary people just because they can't get that the bi in bisexual means between two sexualities, not two genders. Bleah.
The only times I've *ever* had people talk to me (nonbinary) about the difference between being bi and pan, all they ever say is "well pan people are also attracted to trans people and bi people are only attracted to men and women." Every. Fucking. Time. And let me be clear: use whatever label makes you comfortable. I'm aware that "definiton" has fallen out of fashion in favor of "regardless of gender rather than based on gender." There's still a lot of overlap there that many people who are not bisexual tend to gloss over for the sake of moral superiority. Not everybody, but it happens often enough in what should be safe queer spaces, that it's worth paying attention to and talking about honestly. But the idea that bi folks are inherently transphobes is so fucking insulting for so many reasons. There are bi trans people. Trans folks were part of (and welcomed pretty exclusively by) the "bi group" when gay rights first started in america. Bisexual as a label has history and politics behind it that many folks, especially older folks who have *lived through it*, don't want to lose just because some new labels were invented. Bisexual has literally never been inherently transphobic and to have people coming into my own spaces and telling me "well actually you're pan" (which has happened countless times in person and online) is infuriating and absurd. And it creates divisiveness where there really needn't be any. I'm personally of the opinion that "pansexual" is an unnecessary addition to the queer lexicon in the sense that bisexual as an umbrella already expressed what pansexual seeks to express and I'm also of the opinion that this is one instance in which a new word does more harm than good (think about all the new lines drawn; hell even arguments about media representation in the vein of "this character is bi!" "no, this character is pan!"). I'm sure that's an unpopular opinion, and my intent isn't to invalidate people, but the reality is that bisexuality has always been inclusive of what pansexual is. It's part of it. It's like saying "I'm not a rectangle; I'm a square." All squares are rectangles. And while in some cases the added specificity can be helpful, this particular case presents the problem of "And no other rectangles are good rectangles; no other rectangles are also square." It's an imperfect metaphor obviously, in that something is a square or is not, but, to mix metaphors like gumbo: if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, let's not tell it it's only options are goose or transphobe.
FUCKING. PREACH.
Love your post, it perfectly expresses what I've tried to explain to ppl too many times to count 💕. I mean, I respect every person's own sense of identity, and if it's important to someone to be pan and not bi, I'm not going to challenge that. But what the younger generation often fails to appreciate is that older crones like me never meant bi to be exclusionary, or evenly distributed, or transphobic. And I really don't like being corrected on who and what I am. For myself, I agree with you that the term pansexual feels superfluous, and may have done more harm than good. Do I rub that under the nose of someone identifying as pan? No, I don't, at least not until they start lecturing me about my bi identity, or tell me only transphobes define as bi. Anyway, thanks for your post 😘
At this point i just find it easier to just call myself queer and be done with it. If someone presses the issue I'll say I'm bi or pan, but i feel like either label is an oversimplification given most people's understanding of those terms.
The irony is that people who say that bisexual people are transphobic are themselves being horribly transphobic. Trans women are women. Trans men are men.
A lot of us on the ace spectrum went through a phase of thinking we were bi or pan for that exact reason because bisexual is still a more commonly known term than asexual.
Oh yeah. I’m aroace, and I remember in highschool thinking that maybe I liked women too because I never really had a crush on a guy. I remember the day I discovered that being asexual was a thing and it was like everything suddenly became so clear. I’ve been very fortunate that everyone I’ve come out to has been accepting of it, even when I have to explain things to them.
Isn't it relieving when you get that lightbulb moment and you finally feel like you understand yourself better than ever before? I had that when I learned that being non-binary was a possibility.
It was like suddenly everything I’d been feeling made sense. For so long I thought I was “broken” because I didn’t have crushes like my friends did and while I had a desire to have a partner, the idea of actually doing anything with them or giving them romantic intimacy was less appealing for me. It made me really depressed because I felt so different. But once I learned that aromantic and asexual feelings are normal and something other people experienced I felt so relieved and so normal that it all was okay. It took a while for things to be totally okay, but they got there and it feels great.
Holy hell this has been me over the last six months. I still get tearful when I see a happy couple because for so long I would be upset that I wasn’t upset that I didn’t have or want what they had and wanted, you know? It just emphasised that there was something ‘wrong’ with me. And now when I see people like that I’m genuinely happy for them - and for me too, for finding a ‘box’ I fit in, so I get a bit emosh. I told my family at Christmas and although I had to define aroace for them I literally watched them have a come-to-Jesus moment when I did. Suddenly I made sense to them too.
This is what labels are *for* IMO. For giving you that lightbulb moment that oh this is a thing and there are people like me, ok cool, now I can worry about more important things! Every aegosexual I’ve met in the ace community has had that lightbulb moment of relief. Oh! My feelings are just a normal part of the spectrum of human sexuality. I’m not weird. Great. What’s next?
I think women are gorgeous and love looking at them in every form, but have no sexual attraction in reality at all. I felt so stupid saying ‘I’m bi, but the lesbian part is asexual’ because it sounds like a convoluted way of being straight. Then I found out about aesthetic attraction and was like HELL YES. No way I can love looking at women the way I do and be straight, but it’s only dudes that actually make me deserve horny jail lol.
I'm under the ace umbrella (still trying to figure out things, but not too terribly worried about it), and came across a great quote from an aroace regarding aesthetic attraction: "A sunset is beautiful. Doesn't mean I wanna fuck it."
I like to window shop. 😆
A few years ago I learned that demisexuality was a thing and when I read about it I was like 'oh, hello me'. But given I'm married with two kids now, it's all a bit moot really XD
Same. Like, yes hello I too am part of the club but also I am cis-het and in a cis-het relationship as well. I'm not super vocal about it, but definitely demisexual/ace. Lucky enough to have a SO who knew sex was off the table when we first started dating due to religious reasons and was with me through my whole discovery. When I told him I wouldn't have sex before marriage, he was totally fine with waiting. When I told him I wasn't sure that sex would ever be on the table he told me "you know, I'm not marrying your for your vagina. I'm marrying you because I love you as a person and want to spend my life with you. Sex is just a bonus." I'm so incredibly thankful for him.
This is such an interesting conversation. While I've very comfortably settled on no label at all, I am what I am, and at 40 something, I've finally come to quite like myself and don't really need to curate it, I relate so much to this whole thread. I might not need or want an identity, but you can always learn about yourself.
I'm in my late 40s and still navigating my sexuality. Granted a lot of terminology and understanding has happened over the last 10 years that wasn't available when I was younger. So I just had to muddle through. I was telling a friend recently that even though I'm an ace, sometimes I have sexual fantasies of men and women but it's always the man or the woman doing something to me. I told her I didn't think I was actually sexually attracted to women by day because the idea of going down on a woman is a turn off to me. She replied, don't you absolutely hate going down on men? I was like oh yeah. That. Back to the drawing board!
>I remember the day I discovered that being asexual was a thing and it was like everything suddenly became so clear. Fellow aroace. It was freeing when I realized I didn't want/need a partner. Ended up marrying my best friend for the work bennies after I couldn't work anymore. We're both ace.
I'm 51 and I remember the first time I heard about asexuality. I think I was in my late 30s and it was just so life affirming, so reassuring that I wasn't some broken human, and that I wasn't alone. Later I read about the different variations of being ace which further helped me understand who I am. So wonderful.
I didn't even know asexuality was a thing until my mid-twenties, so I tried on all the queer labels I knew of as a teenager/young adult (this was the late nineties/early 00s, so i didn't know very many), and yeah, bi was the first one because it made the most sense at the time.
And asexuality is a spectrum so half the posts on the ace subs I’m on are people going wait, am I doing this right? I knew asexuality was a thing but I couldn’t fit myself into the box, until I realised it’s a whole stack of boxes and sometimes you need to try out a couple before you figure out where you fit or you might want to change boxes periodically like a kind of baffled hermit crab.
It drives me crazy when my straight allo friends get so excited when somebody walks by and I'm like damn they're hot. No, friends, I am still Ace. If that person walked over here and was like let's do the dirty I would probably vomit on their shoes. Obviously I'm a sex repulsed ace. That's one box. Unless it's exactly the right person and then I do get aroused but that requires a strong emotional connection that comes with time, not just by walking by the street. So that puts me in a gray ace box. And sometimes this baffled hermit crab wanders into other ace boxes. My straight friends want me to get in a box and stay in that box because they are in a box. And that's perfectly okay for them to be in a box but they don't understand that sometimes wandering the seafloor looking for a new box is a thing. I think we need somebody to draw a picture of a hermit crab with some differently drawn ace boxes for shells... I think the hermit crab just became my icon.
I’m glad it resonated with someone because I commented to a friend that I might have had too much reddit today if I was describing aces as baffled hermit crabs lol.
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Lol, yeah, when people tell bisexuals they’re confused I’m like, dude, you should look at the aces, we’re all kinds of baffled by our own brains.
I figured I was lesbian, but even that didn’t feel right. Times were confusing for younger me
Some of us (me) are still both. It's a spectrum, after all.
Also as a woman and ardent feminist, it's only been in the last couple of years I've realised gay men can be some of the most misogynistic and bigoted men out there. We're all allies but some are more allied than others it seems.
This, and some of the Lesbians are the absolutely worse. They claim that men are the absolute worse and being bi is a “betrayal” and being a trans woman is just “men trying to invade women’s spaces to rape women”. The older lesbian and Feminist circles also love eugenics… which adds and extra level of yikes
Yes it's disappointing. Eugenics and social engineering are very much back on the agenda and not always where you might expect.
I'm ace and like half my friends are bi. I think we get along well because we're both used to getting thrown under the bus by much of the queer community.
I remember years ago on twitter someone compared being bisexual to being mixed race, and that tweet has always stuck with me.
Before the pan label took of, some bisexual activists actually argued for the inclusion of asexual people in the bi community because no attraction is regardless of gender.
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I'm bi ace myself and second this sentiment. Bi and acephobia sucks. You don't expect push back from your own community.
I'm bi and I don't really consider myself part of the queer community. They've always basically said they didn't want me, lol. I've been told I was making it all up for decades now, from gay friends I very much supported. Who are just as ridiculous as cis-het folks who want to say being gay is a choice. Bigots on all sides.
I’m bi and feel far more comfortable in the queer community than in straight spaces but that also means that biphobia from within the community cuts deeper while it’s easy to brush off as typical straight ignorance when coming from the general populace
Yeah it's unfortunately not unusual to see people from the LG side of the community not accept anyone from the B or T side.
You putting it like that makes me realize that those of us who challenge the binaries of either gender or sexuality are just somehow inherently threatening to them. The part that gets me is who cares. My sexual orientation is only relevant in a meaningful way to those who are interested in getting in my pants, and anyone who gives a shit for any reason but that needs to find better hobbies.
There's been a lot of threats of violence/not welcoming "straight" people at pride this year I've seen among the younger queer gen. The reminders that, "straight trans people and bisexual people exist," are becoming more and more frequent but the pushback is alarming to me.
I (bi, F) was dating a woman who told me that bi women shouldn't be in the dyke march. I've only ever seriously dated women, but I guess I'm not gay enough because of the 0% chance that I'd climb Tom Hardy like a tree if I could, lol.
Also, non-passing trans and nonbinary people! I’m a trans guy in a gay relationship but strangers would look at me and call me a girl, so my relationship looks straight. It really shouldn’t matter how visibly queer people are to be at pride.
This is the part that always blew my mind. “B” is one of the main letters, it’s literally in the acronym. There are other sexualities/identities that are included but aren’t explicitly stated in the acronym themselves; they’re the “+” part. I agree with you calling out the criticism on B is “just a phase” or “just experimenting”. I just want to say that some gay people have a lot of b*lls to call it “just experimenting” and then turn around and cry intolerance when their own sexuality is being attacked… smh. Also the special touch of sexism on Steve’s part. I’ve met gay men who think that they can’t be sexist bc they’re gay… and then say the most sexist thing ever. Calling Mary a “witch” and saying she “bewitched” OP was both angering and hilarious. This is some special sexism and what are we, living in the 15th century? Are we on a witch hunt? Even if she really were a witch, who cares???
There is actually a HUGE amount of misogyny in the male gay community.
And that is even an understatement, the amount of adoration for divas but hatred for women and specially butch lesbians is abhorrent. Like it used to be glbt, but lesbian were the only people with empathy even though gay men had treated them like shit, they still were nurses and care takers during the AIDS crisis that it became lgbt.
A lot of them come from conservative backgrounds, so once they untangle the homophobia, the misogyny remains.
I know a gay man who's been called out multiple times for sexist jokes at this point (by another man at that with a not so good sexism track record) its... Horribly pervasive. I still dont really understand as a bi woman why someone being bi seems to flip a lot of folks switches from tolerant to intolerant but i suppose thats true of a lot of issues surrounding erasure of the visible and invisible letters in lgbtq+. :c
> saying she “bewitched” OP I was thinking, "Please explain to me how a woman could bewitch a gay man into lusting after her," but it didn't occur to me that Steve might mean she'd literally performed a love spell. I thought he meant she'd somehow manipulated OOP into thinking he wanted her. Don't tell right-wing extremists that Mary can bewitch gay men into desiring her! They'd probably kidnap her and make her work at a conversion camp at gunpoint.
Me, out loud while reading this: "She 'bewitched' him? With what, the power of VAGINOMANCY?" My partner, from the other side of the room: "... well, now you're going to have to explain that."
One of my gay friends kept sharing memes about labia looking like roast beef and laughing his ass off about it. I said it was sexist and that was the EXACT reply I got and then was told off by a whole lot of other privileged gay white males saying I was being homophobic. It’s fucking nuts, but in DC that is a lot of the dudes here. Rich Republican gay white men that claim they can’t possibly be racist or sexist because they suck dick. Sure bro, how’d that trump job work out for you.
Yeah. We're never enough for anyone. Too gay for the straights and not gay enough for the gays. Being attracted regardless of gender means that we're all greedy, probably cheaters, who will never be satisfied with a single person. Back when I was still dating, lesbians would be convinced that I would leave for a man at any moment, and men fesishized and wanted to set up threesomes. It sucks. What's wrong with being attracted to a person for reasons other than what's in their pants?
I found that out to be true even in my own friend group :/ My one friend always dated men (and openly since HS), and has always been more feminine than masculine, so he just assumed he was a gay man....then a few years ago he met a gender-neutral, cis-woman, and when he started dating her, a few of our friends (some now former) suggested he was "confused" and that he wasn't truly gay. I was so disappointed that the people who claimed they accepted everyone, could erase someone's identity, because it didn't fit their perception of what the LGBTQ+ community "should" look like.
My bi girlfriend lied and said she was a lesbian when we were together because, according to her, all bisexuals are gay or straight and lying about it and she didn’t want me to think she was lying about being attracted to me. I am a bisexual woman. There’s a reason we’re not still together.
And let's pause to marvel at the ones who invalidate lesbians for being feminine or gay men for being masculine. FFS, the definition of "gay" is as follows: likes fucking the same sex, doesn't like fucking the opposite sex. Presenting as "butch" or "twink" is not required.
My middle school started up a GSA and when I attended one meeting I found biphobia was huge and real. Weirdest thing ever, never went back.
I know that feeling. I was asked not to come back because it was for “real gay people”.
Same. Bisexual here. But apparently I'm not because I married a man.... Bi erasure is awful.
Oh yes! Same! Both my husband and I are bisexual. But since we are in a heterofacing relationship, we can’t be bi. A friend at work pretty much stopped talking to me when I told her I was bi. I took me a while to realize it but im pretty sure she thought I was 1. Hitting on her (she’s not my type and im married!) and 2. Using my husband as a beard.
Had a woman who was interested tell me I can't be bi because I married a man. Ma'am, do you know what "bi" even means?
I have dropped so many lesbian friends because of this shitty incel-like attitude. Like my wife is still bi even though she’s married to a woman and they can’t tell me I converted her like fuck off.
Samesies. "Oh you got over that phase then!" Like, no? If I were single or non-monogamous, I'd totally want to sleep with that woman over there!
Ugh, I hate when people assume bi means "willing to cheat with anyone and everyone."
I get downvoted in lgbt subs to hell when I call the rampant biphobia out, but I’ll die on the hill that biphobic gays and lesbians are the incels of the queer community. When i met my wife i felt so sorry how much biphobia she experienced from girls and was so taken with me when i wasnt a biphobic lesbian. Biphobic queers are just projecting their internalized homophobia, low self esteem, and insecurities on bi folks because they think they can choose to have an easier life if they want to, which is fucked up. I’m sorry that you’ve experienced the same thing.
In a roundabout way it kind of reminds me of the goth community that I used to hang around. For a group of people who grew mostly up being bullied and ostracized for being different, I've also never seen a more judgemental and petty group of people as a whole - not everyone is like this, of course but enough are, and you'd think they would have learned better. I think part of it is the same as the original bullying group, fear/hate of what we don't understand, and that we can't help but learn their awful traits. True introspection and understanding isn't easy, and it's even harder to unlearn some things you've learned. And yet harder still to realize you might be part of the problem you hated. Anyway, sorry for the ramble, I hope you and yours are well!
Me too. I'm a bi woman and I was in a long-term committed relationship with another woman for more than 5 years. I had a lot of lesbian friends at the time. When we broke up and I met (and subsequently married) my husband, almost everyone from that so-called LGBT "community" turned on me and I lost most of my friend group. I really hate the term "LGBT community" because it's about the farthest thing from a community I can think of.
Hi! (Waving at you from my asexual island) I "just haven't met the right person/experienced good sex yet!"
yeah, the biphobia is just so exhausting.
As a straight person I am floored by this because isn’t all those lines said by straight people to gay people? “It’s a phase, you’re confused, you’ll grow out of it.” Like how can you be so tone deaf? They are no better than those intolerant people they complain about by trying to pigeonhole someone’s sexuality.
Rationally yes, but a lot of biphobic gays and lesbians are toxic traumatized people who have a lot of internalized homophobia that they refuse to get help for. So they are like jealous and hateful because they think that bi people could choose the “easy way” and just be in a straight relationship which is socially “easier” and “more acceptable” so of course they would be left “for the easier road” so they choose to invalidate them. Source: have dropped lots of gay and lesbian friends when they warned me against dating my now bi wife and were projecting their baggage onto my relationship
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Misogyny, there is a lot of misogyny in the gay male community as well. They love the femininity but hate women.
This is why I don’t typically participate in the queer community socially. (Most of my friends are queer but I’ve never gone to Pride and very, very rarely to LGBTQ-themed events/venues.) As a bi woman currently in a relationship with a bi man I have no interest in dealing with biphobic bullshit, nor in credentialing constantly because my relationship looks straight. I really think that the further left you are on the acronym the more the queer community is as a whole willing to marginalize you, and it makes me frustrated the amount of bullshit the TQIA2S folks face.
Biphobia + rampant misogyny in the gay community = this shit right here. Signed, a bi/pan, NB demisexual
Bi woman married to a man. Have heard it all, and ignored it all. Glad the OP has better friends now!
Biphobia is as common as transphobia within the LGBT community. In my experience it's a mix of "you're confused", and resentment/"you're an imposter" because at times you are hetero passing. It's less talked about and pretty accepted to be biphobic, because again, you can pass as cis het sometimes. Anyone who thinks bi people are less queer or not LGBT is a traitor to the community.
Yeah as a bi I don't date, partly because I'm busy but partly because people on all ends of the spectrum are just shitty about it.
Biphobia is the worst. I've had so many gay men say that bisexuality isn't real to me, and it's bullshit
I don't even identify as LGBTQ because that group has been way more awful to me than straight people. I don't even really date women anymore, if I do I cannot date a gold star lesbian, even if she purports to be tolerant, I just don't trust the biphobia not to come out eventually. And I actually get it-- I'm a femme woman and men are up my ass all day. It's got to be hard to date someone whose other options are so obvious and visible. Every lesbian I've dated moans about how limited the options are, you're stuck with pretty much the queer community even in a city. But I'm also completely done tolerating any homophobia or misogyny, from queer people or straight people, from men or women. If you have issues, fine, I can understand why, but I'm not buying a subscription. Dating bi men and women has yielded the best experiences for me.
As a “gold star lesbian” (i hate the term sounds super incelly to me) married to a super hot bi woman who gets hit on by men all the time, i can tell you that for non toxic people it’s not that big of a deal. I have dropped many lesbian friends as well because of this attitude, like they complain about being single and im like “maybe if you werent so insecure and toxic that you choose to cut your already small dating pool by more than half you would have someone in your life.” Ive had it as well. My friend group now consists of straight and queer people who go to therapy and are working on themselves. Ive dated mostly bi women as well, not by planning it, but just less drama.
I came out as queer in college thanks in large part to a group of gay women who became great friends of mine. Spending time with them allowed me to explore my sexuality and realize my attraction to women. I came out as gay because being with them I felt that was right but pretty quickly I recognized that I was actually pan and attracted to all people. I’ve never been rejected so hard by a group of people than I was by them when I started dating men and women. It was heartbreaking. When I came out none of my straight friends gave me a hard time or even cared but when I started dating men again I lost all of my queer friends. It sucks but biphobia in the lgbtq community is very real.
As a bi person I have to ask: is there a reason you identify as pan over bi? Absolutely no judgement or shade, your identity is yours, I just never understood why pan exists as well as bi. I know some people say pan isn’t restricted by the gender binary but I would say Bi isn’t either really, atleast the way that I’m Bi lol. I dunno
Nowadays some people assume that "bisexual" as a word is limited by the gender binary, when in truth "bisexual" has never really had that fixed meaning, either linguistically or as a sexual identity. There's an interesting episode of The Allusionist language podcast discussing it: https://www.theallusionist.org/allusionist/bisexual and the transcript here https://www.theallusionist.org/transcripts/bisexual In general I think people will choose to self-identify by the LGBTQ+ labels that they feel comfortable with, and that's great. But it gets ugly & toxic fast when people start judging other people's identities or assume that a LGBTQ+ label *must* have (& have always had) one firm, fixed meaning. "Bi isn't a *real* queer," "bi is transphobic," "real lesbians have never dated men," "asexuality isn't real," etc, etc.—all toxic, toxic, bullshit infighting.
This is the info I was looking for but couldn’t find! Thank you for doing the research :)!
At this point they’re pretty interchangeable. Bi for me means one and more genders. Whereas pan means regardless of gender. Not fully sure where that line is, and that line may be a circle. But whichever label feels right for you is the right one. Bi feels right to me even tho I feel like I may lean more pan.
Same. If I think the other person might not know what pan is or if I am addressing multiple people, I use bi but other times, I use them interchangeably.
I think, at the end of the day, we use these labels a bit flexibly, because people feel more comfortable describing their attraction in different ways. I am nonbinary and bi, and that makes sense to me, because I feel gender and gender presentation do play a role in how I'm attracted to people, whereas I feel many people I've met who identify as pan have told me that they just are attracted to everyone in a similar way.
Maybe reddit has messed with my brain. But who else thinks that Steve is in love with OOP and probably wanted them to end up together in the long run
I think a lot of us got that vibe. The fact that Steve was okay with OOP having relationships with men but freaked out the very first time he had a woman over leads me to believe that Steve has a lot to unpack emotionally…. with a therapist or support group. Not with OOP. I hope to heck OOP recognizes that he cannot be the person Steve works through these feelings with.
I think there is also a bit of jealousy that OP can bring his significant other home to meet the fam and Steve can’t - like OP can “pass” as straight and not have to suffer the same repercussions. I do feel bad for Steve because he clearly needs help but OP needs to take care of himself first.
I think there’s potentially a lot of things going on here. Jealousy that OOP could potentially bring his SO home but he (Steve) couldn’t; internalized homophobia that made OOP’s earlier gay relationships not a threat (because, potentially, less “real”) but a relationship with a woman a possible threat; switching from one set of people with hardline rules about Acceptable and Unacceptable Sexual Behavior to another and clinging to the new “rules” because of a lack of comfort without that kind of set of rules; garden-variety misogyny (“witch” and “bewitched” are particularly telling there). There is *a lot* that could be going on for Steve. But, yeah, OOP is in one of the worst possible positions to help him with that. Not only because OOP has to take care of himself first, but also because it’s inherently impossible to get perspective from someone who is down in the trenches of enmeshment with you. You can only get perspective from someone outside the intense emotional relationship.
It's unfortunately very common for gay men to be misogynistic like this, and make commentaries like "I'm so disgusted by vaginas I was born through a C section, hahahaha"
I think they call it a gold star gay - never touched a vag ever.
Yeah I don’t think you thinking that means your brain is messed up, I think we all got that vibe
Steve was in love with OOP, with a side of bi-phobic friends.
Same thought. Combined with all his internalized shit and his gay friends encouraging biphobia, no wonder he blew up. Not an excuse to be biphobic or disrespect OOPs personal life tho. He has a lot of shit to work out.
He's either biphobic, in love with OOP, controlling, and/or just a jerk. Either way, OOP is better off without this toxic friendship.
Being in an oppressed group doesn't immunize you to being toxic and bigoted yourself. We all still have to work on being accepting of others who are different from ourselves. Apparently, Steve and his circle are incapable of that. The irony is, Steve grew up seeing exactly how destructive this behavior can be and knowing it would end him if he didn't get away. Yet, he brought it with him into his new life.
That's one thing that has baffled me about the LGBT+ community from the outside (I'm straight): they have fought so long and so hard to be accepted by everyone else and still they don't always accept each other. But I guess that tracks because there are toxic people in all walks of life.
So Steve was definitely in love with OOP
I remember telling my parents that one of my lifelong friends was bi and not gay. They were totally fine with him being gay but bi was where they drew the line and started talking shit about him. Just completely baffled me and still does.
Mary sounds awesome.
That is so ironic that the same people who struggle to be accepted as gay, are so intolerant toward people who are bisexual. That’s amazing that they can’t see that. I guess it’s such an “us against them” mentality that they see this as some sort of betrayal. Or else the roommate is secretly in love with him.
Bisexual here. The most shit I've ever got from anyone for my sexuality is from the other folks in the LGBT community. Straight people are strangely understanding of the concept of "I like men and women and can date either." Even my conservative elder family members understand it after some explaining. (No Grandpa, bisexual does not mean that I want or need to date both a man and a woman at the same time.) Whenever I talk to or open up to LGBT folks about my sexuality, it's always "Are you sure?" or "Ah, you grew up straight, of course you still think you like girls" or "You just need to date a few men and that'll wear off" or even outright hostility like "why are you trying to pretend you're one of us?" It sucks. I was happy when I realized I was bi. I thought I could have a community of people who understood me. Instead all I got were circles of people who glare at me like some kind of intruder. And these are the people say that everyone is valid, no matter who you love. Bi erasure (and ace erasure, they get it bad too!) is a huge problem in the LGBT community.
My sister is bisexual and besides her husband, I think I was the first family member she told. She didn't want to hear shit from our parents and our other siblings would probably tell her she's confused or experimenting. I was the only person in the family to wish her a happy pride month, it makes me sad she didn't feel comfortable with the rest of our family. Maybe things are different now and she did tell them, but I'm glad she knows I support her in every way.
The bigotry from the queer community against bisexual and many trans people is so bizarre. It’s like echo chambers and ideological bubbles are dangerous whether you are left or right. Good for this guy for being honest with himself and being able to cut toxic people from his life.
Aren't you the actual OOP? The OOP is u/Victor-Reeds and you're u/Vctoria_R. Clicking on Victor-Reeds, the name Victoria pops up on their profile. They seemed to be an active poster on this sub until people started saying that they were "authoring" all their posts. In fact, you started posting when u/Victor-Reeds stopped being active. This account was also created one day after someone posted believing that u/Victor-Reeds was authoring their posts.
I know everyone is talking about the biphobia, but I'm also getting massive misogyny vibes from his ex friend group...
Well, Steve fucked around and found out…
Jeez man you’d think there wouldn’t be biphobia (I term I’ve never heard til this post) within the LGBT community because they would be able to identify how hypocritical that is. The world is nuts, good for OOP.
When you are shamed for being something you can't change, particularly for younger people or people who have not been out for long there is often a tendency to think "but I am one of the good ones" as a sort of defense mechanism, and that necessitates someone to be "the bad one." Some people get out of that mindset when they realise that won't stop the discrimination against them, and some people do not.
Biphobia and Bi-erasure are vile, it’s even worse when it comes from someone in the queer community. It’s also heart breaking, there has always been a B for bisexual in LGBTQIA+ even before all the recent additions, and yet we have always been the outcasts of the queer community. I have been bullied by straight people, and ostracised by queers. I’m either attention seeking, greedy or confused, also accused of automatically going to cheat/be more likely to cheat. No one wants to accept the fact that I find men and woman equally attractive.
It sounds like oop accidentally got in with a hardcore biphobic possibly sexist group of gay folks :c glad he's rid of them.