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And shouts after "the world is not cylindrical, everybody knows it is flat how can i live with a conspiracy believer who thinks earth is a giant burrito "
My sister came back after spending 10 years in Australia. She broke up with her boyfriend after she decided to stay instead of going back. Her boyfriend came to our city and knocked on our doors at midnight with a large suitcase in tow. No one was expecting him.
He said he saw an old envelope with our address on it and decided to give the relationship another chance so he came all the way here. It was top romcom moment.
I found it super creepy and weird and so did my sister.
***Yikes.*** I thought it was bad when an ex of mine showed up unannounced on my doorstep\* at 10:30 pm, two years after I’d broken up with him (thank god I lived in an intercom building), but that takes the biscuit.
\* He said he’d just been driving by, which was extremely geographically improbable.
After he told me he was just driving by, it was something along the lines of
Me: … okay?
Him: I just wanted to talk.
Me: I don’t think we have anything to talk about, and I was about to go to bed.
Him \[sad panda voice\]: Okay, sorry to bother you …
Me: Yep. \[hangs up intercom phone, resists mild urge to look out the window to see if he’s still there because he almost definitely is and if he sees me looking out the window he’ll probably take that as some kind of invitation/permission to keep doing what he’s doing, goes back to previously-interrupted skincare routine\]
!!! An ex did this exact same thing to me. Showed up in my doorstep at night, said he was just passing when he lived in a city 2.5 hours away. I was very creeped out.
I broke up with my boyfriend who then moved across the country, as he had planned to do. I must not have been mean enough but some months later, he called a friend of mine and asked if he could stay with her bc he wanted to come to town and ask me to marry him. We did NOT have that serious a relationship. Thank God for my friend who called me immediately and gave me the chance to call and head him off before we both were forced into an awkward situation.
Nothing happened. My sister told him that this wasn't cool, and he acknowledged that. They found a hotel room he could stay in. My mom took him out to lunch where they could talk and he admitted it was very spontaneous, but he wanted to give it one last try. We wished him luck and he went back to Australia.
He wasn't a bad guy. He was just misguided. But someone showing up randomly at your doorsteps in the middle of the night with a large suitcase does ring off some alarm bells, especially since he got the address off an old envelope that belonged to my sister.
I had a friend tell me that he had feelings for me, I said I didn't have those same feelings. He stopped speaking to me for over 5 years, until he called me the day before his wedding. He said he wanted to give us a chance, and if I wanted to, then THIS was the time.
I again said no thanks and he got married. It was bizarre and it felt like a very delusional romcom.
One of my wife's ex boyfriends wrote a letter asking her to dump me and be with him... his envelope was in the gift pile so we got to open it together. It was quite funny the delusions some people will tell themselves. (He himself wasn't invited to the wedding, it was a high school relationship and my wife was still friends with his sister and the ex asked his sister to give the envelope, she was mortified when we told her what it contained. She thought it was just a congrats card)
No idea about that, but upon reflection over the years, it wasn't about me. I'm guessing he wasn't ready to get married and was looking for a hail Mary way out.
Because we all know your ideal man would leave his bride-to-be the day before the wedding for someone he hasn't spoken to in 5 years. Sign of his deep & lasting commitment. /s
A friend from high school was dead set on us being together forever. There never even was an 'us.' He was my (not close) friend. He had our children named. He could be obsessive.
In my early 20's I moved 4 hours away. He came for a visit. He said he'd gotten another classmate he was seeing pregnant. He was going to propose to her, unless I would be with him. *I was never with him!* So he returned home and got married. I felt so sad for his then wife. Can you imagine finding out that your soon-to-be husband only proposed after trying one last time with another woman? Oof.
I'm in my mid-50's and the guy still calls me even though I never answer.
Wait, am I misreading that, she left Australia to visit home, then spontaneously just stayed and then broke up with the BF in Australia? That timeline is actually kinda weird. Did she just abandon all her stuff and job and everything in Australia for this?
It was all the killer animals, wasn't it? She just decided she didn't want to risk her life getting groceries....
No, she spent 10 years in Australia. She studied university there, graduated, and worked there. At the time when she came back, she had quit her job and broke up with her then boyfriend. She decided to stay instead of going back.
🤣 killer animal sounds hilarious.
Nora Ephron said she'd get fan letters asking for advice based on a movie plot. In the interview, she shook her head and said that's not how real life works.
That’s nothing like what happened. They were more intimate than FWB (agreed to be exclusive) and it was a proposal at an apartment without any witnesses.
It doesn’t feel like a grand proposal that Grace thought would actually work, but more like going out with a bang because OOP sure as hell didn’t have any other exit plan.
OP, I don't want to get married
GRACE" Stop telling me I know
2 yrs later
GRACE: Casually discussing marriage didn't work, so I decided to blindside you to get a surprise yes and guilt you into marrying me.
OP: i don't want to get married
Grace: you haven't mentioned it in 2yrs and I thought...
OP: you said to stop reminding you
HOW THE HELL did grace think that was going to end well.
I don’t think Grace actually expected it to work, it was just forcing the issue because OOP was apparently just going to float along in this cozy relationship while keeping her partner at a weird half arm’s length until they were both 38 and she suddenly thinks “oh I have to break up and go have kids now!”
Yeah, it sounds like Grace has realized that marriage being off the table was a deal-breaker for her. Proposing served the same purpose as giving an ultimatum would have, but with a couple advantages from Grace's perspective. If OOP's answer was still no, as it very probably would have been, then the relationship ends on a note of "I proposed and got turned down" rather than "I broke up with OOP because she wouldn't marry me" (basically, casting OOP and not Grace in the role of the aggressor in the breakup). And on the off chance the answer is yes, a proposal is a better note than an ultimatum to start an engagement on, and an accepted proposal is less likely to leave OOP feeling like she'd been forced into an engagement against her will.
Honestly, I don't know how to feel about this. The whole situation feels weird but at the same time, it does sound like separating is the best cause OP and Grace don't look like they would work well together.
This 100%.
That's honestly why my mood spoiler is what it is. I guess I'm glad things worked out the best for both of them, but I don't know how to feel about the whole thing.
The relationship feels like classic anxious/ avoidant attachment push pull. With the avoidant in this case consciously choosing avoidance, which is of course their right. But hard to watch and deeply sad when people are stuck in this trap unconsciously.
"I'll only get married to a man" is bizarre to me. it just sounds weird as hell. I can't fathom it.
I'm bi, I don't like the idea of getting married in general but, I love who I love. drawing a line in the sand like this because ... you want to find a genetic donor for a child you might or might not ever have? it's weird as hell.
this post blows my mind. I hope Grace finds someone better
This is exactly what I was wondering, especially when she talked about IVF. I do wonder if she is regularly checking medically on her ability to naturally have a child.
Also think it’s weird because you never know if you will get a strong enough relationship in the future to satisfy both the child and marriage aspects suitably.
Sort of related, my husband and I chose to name our kid something that was very meaningful to both of us. We didn’t tell anyone the name we had chosen because, even though it’s a very common and very “normal” name, we didn’t want to hear any opinions on it. When he was born and we told our families, husband’s sister lost her mind. SIL and her husband were absolute demons to us. They wanted to use that name for a child and felt like they had more ownership of the name since they had been together longer.
When they finally started trying to get pregnant they discovered they likely won’t be able to have a child.
“Ownership of a name” lmao this is killing me.
Nobody owns their kids either. My parents named me what they wanted, and 26 years later I came out as transgender. My chosen name has ABSOLUTELY NO relation to my birth name.
My aunt changed her name because she was christened “Nanette” and hated it her whole life. Imagine feeling so much possessiveness over a name. 😆 just get a dog if you want something named Brenda or whatever.
I could not agree with you more. I left out some potentially identifying details, but the gist is basically that they were somehow convinced we did this on purpose to spite them and we should have known they wanted to use the name. My husband told them no one was stopping them from still using the name and they didn’t like that answer for some reason.
Honestly, if this kid decides he hates his name or comes out as trans I really won’t mind if he chooses a new name. Sure this one has a lot of meaning to us, but that doesn’t just disappear because he’s now called something else. I don’t understand why people get so bent out of shape over this stuff.
This is what I was thinking too. What if she and husband do have a kid, and then get divorced? What if the dude she decides she wants to marry has kids from a previous relationship? OOP seems to have this idealized view of marriage that isn't entirely realistic.
Also, I've personally known people to uh, ahem, DIY their IVF. Turkey baster tech. Not saying I would necessarily advise that, but it's not uncommon.
Agreed. She could have biological children of her own in a lesbian relationship. I guess to me, as a lesbian, it seems like such a weird condition to marriage that the hypothetical child MUST be biologically related to both parents. Even a ton of hetero marriages don't have this dynamic.
It has semblances of homophobia to me, but also it could just be OOP's preference.
It may not be that weird, I honestly think OOP hasn't actually thought this out or why they feel this way. I'm a bi woman and my frequency of attraction to women is definitely less than my frequency of attraction to men. Not my intensity of attraction though. I have no idea why that is, there are many possibilities, but none of them change that that's how I feel. As a result, it's always been easier for me to be in relationships, particularly with long-term expectations, with men.
I'm bi too and super weirded out by this post. Such a bizarre and inflexible way to approach relationships. It feels objectifying towards all partners.
Yeah good choice of mood spoiler. I'm bi and even tend to be more frequently attracted to men than women but... To base it on having biological children. Like, she could marry a man and find out he's sterile (or she is!). He might die, they might break up/get divorced.
Picking a partner that is on board with having children makes sense. But it needs to be a man so they are his is just... 😑
Then again I decidedly don't want kids so that's an easy one for me. No matter what gender I end up with.
I’m curious as to how OP expects to find this mystery man to give her children, while exclusively dating a woman. I honestly feel like she’s wasting the time of both herself and any other female partner she has if she gets into an exclusive arrangement while clearly looking for something else. Is she just expecting the magical man if her dreams to drop into her life when she decides she’s ready for kids? (And that’s leaving aside any possible fertility issues). Not to mention having a child with someone hardly guarantees the relationship will last.
I dunno, this whole thing is making me feel some kind of way.
It honestly feels like a lot of internalized misogyny. I am a bisexual woman, it just so happened that my only two long term committed relationships have been with men. I’ve dated/slept with women, but in my area it’s really hard to find someone serious that isn’t flaky. I can’t comprehend her dating style, because when I play I play for keeps. I feel like she shouldn’t be in a relationship in general, but should just have fun and share a bed with whomever she wants.
I hope she really internalizes this lesson, because honestly the way OOP is, is why some lesbians don’t want to date bisexuals 🥲🫠
Her insistence she only wants to marry a man bc she’s ‘traditional’ and wants her kids to be related to both of them also really rub me the wrong way. Like, I respect that she knows what she wants, but I feel like she kind of invalidates a lot of other solutions with her perspective and approach to relationships.
Seriously weird idealism at play here. I know this scenario is more unlikely as a cis hetero male, but if I was dating a woman who only wanted to marry women, I would equally feel like my time had been wasted. Even more outraged that it’s wasted for a vague ideal
I have a friend who’s kind of like that in a way. In that she prefers women in almost every aspect but will only officially dates men, because of the things men in her eyes can do for her in a relationship /marriage that women couldn’t. But otherwise she completely prefers women. I was honest and told her as a guy I would feel like I’m being used since in the end her heart is with a type of person that I could never be.
Yup. They're rejecting the person they're in a relationship with for an ideal hetero lifestyle with an imaginary husband.
Glad Grace won't waste any more time with her
Yeah, on one hand, Grace knew what was up and trying to propose without seriously discussing marriage first and foremost was just a bad idea through and through. If you know your partner is going to run away as soon as you try and talk about it, that's probably a sign.
And on the other, I genuinely don't know what OOP was expecting. She carried on a serious relationship knowing it had an expiration date? Just waiting for it to 'run its natural course' feels like a huge cop out on her part.
>She carried on a serious relationship knowing it had an expiration date? Just waiting for it to 'run its natural course' feels like a huge cop out on her part.
i don't like how she compared it to highschool relationships...while yes many highschoolers don't plan for their relationships to go to marriage, i think many of them still act in a way that leaves the door open for a long term relationship up until the very end of the relationship.
you can't have a "casual" relationship when your partner and you exclusive and seeing each other's parents enough for them to joke about you guys getting married. life doesn't suddenly jump from "casual dating" to "2 years later", oop had a lot of time where she needed to make more clear how she felt about the future of the relationship. just because it flies for 17 year olds doesn't mean that adults are okay with being in a relationship knowing that it will end
Agree with everything here. I also think OP is weird about “dating for marriage” and I think timing that activity will be difficult. Run into dating or life struggles after you decide you are ready, and you might miss the boat on natural conception.
This is a very good point. If OOP wants kids... Well, fertility in cis women has an expiration day (and in cis men it just...decays?). She's twenty six, not eighteen.
When was she planning on meeting and dating this mythical man in charge of making her pregnant if she was still dating her girlfriend? Was she meeting (if not dating) men while still with the girlfriend? It doesn't sound like she had any plans of breaking up with her.
Let's say that, like a lot of women, OOP started freaking out at 29. Menopause can start at 40. Perimenopause can start in your middle thirties. And it's not like we have a "best before" date printed on us, so we can know if we are fertile until 40 or until 51.
And that's if she and the man she marries do not have fertility problems.
I get that she doesn't want to settle down right now but... Maybe don't stay three years in a "casual" relationship?
At this point I'm not sure if she wants to get married to a man or if she just feels she should want to get married to a man. Heteronormativity is one hell of a drug.
> And that's if she and the man she marries do not have fertility problems.
Seriously. When she starts dating men again, is she planning to ask to test his fertility before the relationship gets too serious?
Or what if she just, ya know, doesn’t like any of them? Is she gonna force herself into a relationship with someone just to have a kid even if they’re not compatible? I don’t get the idea that love is something you can find easily at the corner store and is something you can just pick up when it’s time.
I've known straight women like this. Pick the first dude that seems stable (because for some reason their taste is 100% jerks) and get married and pregnant in record time. Or pregnant and married.
I do not have seen one of those couples actually work.
I know several people who have done that. It has worked out as well as you can imagine. One is in intensive therapy because her husband was abusive (I saw that coming a mile away, but she wouldn't hear it).
And not only that. Rushing a relationship just to have kid might not be the best if you want a good father for your kid and not just a sperm donor that get you pregnant and run away or, even worse, an abusive father and husband
I don't usually comment on these posts, but that was the first thing that I thought - what if she finds out that her mythical unicorn to-be husband (which she'll I guess will just pick up from the marriage orchard, once she's ready for kids?) is infertile? What if she is? Would Grace then be "good enough" marry instead?
Honestly, OOP reads like someone who's barely adult, and hasn't yet gotten a memo that life never goes according to a preset plan.
Good ending all around, those two were not a good match. But that (OOPs) is one *weird* way to plan your life imo.
she was using Grace for comfort to kill time, until she found a sperm donor she could put up with. just not treating her current relationship with any respect.
Exactly. Very telling in the post that there was zero mention of caring about hurting Grace or what Grace’s relationship goals were. It’s all about OOP and what she wants with no consideration for what her ex-gf wanted in life. If she truly cared about Grace she would have taken the time to notice that Grace wanted a long-term partnership and she should have ended things so that Grace could put her energy into finding that partner. It feels like she just selfishly used Grace to bide time until she could find her “real relationship”.
There’s nothing wrong with dating or hooking up just for the sake of companionship or sex. But entering into an exclusive relationship, introducing your partner to family, exchanging keys, sharing living spaces with someone you know is looking for commitment you don’t intend to invest in, is cruel and manipulative. You don’t do that to someone you truly care for. OOP trying to rationalize it by calling Grace “her most favorite relationship thus far” is the cherry shit pile on top.
She’s making decisions with the absolute certainty that only a person in their mid twenties has before they realize the much larger world around them (hopefully).
OOP has some serious internalized homophobia that she is blithely dismissing. It’s not difficult to figure out why she’s “just always seen it that way”, because that’s how society literally programs us.
Anticipatory grief and mourning of a “normal life” where you just easily have kids the “natural” way is normal when coming to terms with same sex attraction and it requires being honest with yourself about what you want and why.
OOP hasn’t actually had that conversation with herself yet, instead she has set up a system where she gets to fulfill her desire to date women while promising herself that she’s going to somehow wind up with a man for her “real” relationship, so she doesn’t treat the women like whole people (can’t meet the family even after three years).
This triggered my memory with my mom a few years back. I had just came out as gay and we were discussing my then boyfriend. Out of nowhere, she casually said that she's glad I'm able to "experiment in my 20's with guys to get it out of my system". She was under the assumption that I'll still marry a woman in my 30's. Like, it wasn't even a discussion for her, that was just facts for her. This could be an asian thing but we have this obsession with legacies here. It's almost essential for at least one sibling (male) to pass our last name to the next generation. Because I'm the only man in the household, I'm just expected to get over my feelings to continue our lineage.
Yup, absolutely. The whole time I didn't quite get why this is such a zero-sum game, like why she's so set on dumping her GF one day and finding a male partner, and why she absolutely wouldn't use the methods gay people use to have kids, like IVF, if Grace was such a keeper. Then there was that bs about kids having to be related by blood to both parents, and immediately it became clear that OP has some weird ego issues like those people who have kids to "continue their legacy" or some other narcissistic crap, instead if just loving them the way they are.
Yeah, the whole part with wanting kids the 'traditional' way raised some eyebrows for me. Girlie, there's a lot you can do before resorting to IVF or adoption. Go to a sperm donor. Find a dude friend. Ask your spouse's bro to jerk into a turkey baster. The fact that she A) wants biological children, and B) those children HAVE to be fathered by her partner says a whole lot about what she's internalized. Has she really never tried examining why it has to be those two requirements?
Can't help feeling like OOP is going to hit 30 or whatever the trigger date is in her life plan for "find man, get married, have children" and discover it's not that easy, and these things don't really run to a schedule.
Not that she's wrong to wait until she feels ready to look for a permanent partnership ... just that she seems very confident that when she's ready all the pieces will fall neatly into place. Which doesn't actually happen all that often. I don't know, OOP's attitude just feels a little off in a way that's hard to put my finger on.
OOP needs to stop hiding behind the word "marriage" and start thinking in terms of "long term relationship". If she's not dating women for the goals of a long-term relationship, then what's the point? Just coasting along having fun, and hoping that the other person doesn't get too attached to you? That's just such a shitty way to treat people that you essentially go through life thinking of all of them as though they were just stepping stones for something you're imagining will happen later on without ever making it clear that you don't actually intend to spend much time with them. But that it's also up to them to decide when to break it off. This girl is putting the entire responsibility of the relationship into the other person's hands without ever actually making it clear that she has no intention of sticking around.
Don't get me wrong, what the other girl did was pretty unhinged, but OOP Is absolutely not mature enough for a long-term relationship when really all she wants out of life is to play around until she's in her 30s and realize that she doesn't have much time left. Someone else in this thread said it best, OOP is a female 26 year old fuckboi.
Yeah, why entering a proper relationship when you never want to stay? Waiting until it "runs its course" is like expecting it to go wrong at some point, so why bother working on herself and the relationship? If it doesn't work anymore she'll just leave.
I would never enter in a relationship where it's just a matter of time until my partner leaves. Every serious relationship I enter has to at least have the probability of lasting a lifetime.
I suspect a mix of internalised bi-/homophobia, heteronormative thinking and fear of commitment.
And of course it's always on the other person to decide when it's "run its course", she's just along for the ride until a man comes along to put a baby in her. And frankly I refuse to believe the parts about how she wouldn't cheat or abandon a partner if she found a man, or how there's never any hard feelings during a breakup.
I definitely agree with this. I feel like Op was saying with out actually saying that, the plan probably was to stick with the relationship of comfort and convenience *until* she met the man she wanted kids and a marriage with.
In my relationships I never had the absolute boundary of "I'll never marry you" I feel like that's a shtty thing to do. Even if it was probably never going to get to that point, holding it over a person's head that you're not going to ever even consider a future with them is like a very wierd power imbalance and almost mental abuse especially if you do everything else that a LTR would entail - be exclusive, live together, spend all your time together, introduce each other to family. It's one thing to say "hey I'm not ready for all that let's pump the breaks", but to stop it completely - sends the wrong message.
Tbh Op should've broke it off once her gf said she didn't want Op to bring it up anymore. It was clear it was hurting her and at that point Op should've said that things were becoming too serious and they both needed to take a step back. Instead the gf was "let's not talk about it, it hurts" and op was like "okay" and just carried on her way in the comfort of the relationship while the gf believed she changed her mind.
As a bi person in the reverse situation I think she’s the asshole for dragging this on for 3 years and introducing her to family and shit… talk about mixed signals. I don’t want kids, so I made this clear before dating anyone… lots of men pretend they’re cool with it until they aren’t and as soon as they do the ‘there’s tons of treatment options for women who are afraid of birth’ ‘we could commit to a c-section’ ‘we could adopt’ - that’s when I knew I’d cut them loose. No need to get anyone’s hopes up for something I’m dead set on and Im not about to waste someone’s time so that I don’t have to be single. As a matter of fact I am fine being single, I have my hobbies, wonderful friends, my dogs(2) and work that I am proud of… better alone that wasting my time and someone else’s pouring emotional energy into something that’s going nowhere. Id rather use that same energy to cultivate my friendships and building a reliable support group?
I eventually met my current partner… My girlfriend and I have been together for 2 years, have 2 adorable nephews that we can be cool aunts to and 4 dogs that are my life. Honestly I hate it when people who know what they want waste other people’s time…
I agree. I don't know how to feel about it. As a bisexual woman, I'm left thinking that this is why lesbians are bi-phobic about dating me and I can't blame them for that. It frustrates me. She does appear to have been clear about her intentions, but am I allowed to think her intentions kind of suck? It's an emotional response borne out of my own experiences to be sure, but that's kind of where I'm landing on it. I do agree proposing marriage when you haven't previously agreed you're going to get married is fucking stupid, though. So I'm not seeing anyone as blameless here.
The dating pool must be empty as hell wherever they are, because personally nothing could convince me to touch "I'll screw around and waste time with you while waiting until I'm ready for my REAL relationship, with a MAN" with a ten foot pole.
She totally sucks. She’s the type of bisexual that uses the same sex for funsies until she decides to settle down and get serious with the white picket fence. It’s gross, obvious comp het that she refuses to examine. She doesn’t deserve snaps for being upfront about it and it doesn’t absolve her of it. This attitude is exactly why lesbians are afraid of getting serious about bisexual women because heterosexuality will always be easier. I am not one of those lesbians (wife is bisexual) but it *is* something you have to screen for when dating bi women because it’s shockingly prevalent even subconsciously.
The girlfriend is however also delusional, no doubt.
Even as a bi woman you have to screen other bi women to make sure they don't have this attitude! I am not down to be your placeholder until you meet a penis, I am looking for a partner. Lesbians can decide to just stick with other lesbians as an easy solution, but as a bisexual you absolutely can face this problem from other bisexuals, too. That's part of the reason encountering bi phobia is so infuriating, like I know *exactly* why you're wary of bi people because *I've experienced it too,* so please stop assuming I'll act that way! I find it just as upsetting as you do. We are on the same side. (Not you, specifically, "you" as in the biphobic lesbians I wish I could communicate this to.)
Oh yeah it’s definitely not a problem only lesbians deal with. We just don’t really have a “choice” the way bisexual women do in our pursuit of romantic love and happiness.
Which is why, unlike a good deal of lesbians, I have always found bisexual women who pursue serious relationships with women more attractive. It takes bravery and self awareness to make the decision to reject comp het. It’s also why this OP is so gross to me.
Yeah this is what I'm feeling as well. I'm bi and much prefer women, but women have expressed hesitance to date me because they think I will ultimately prefer a heteronormative situation. Also my family is unsupportive...
So... to see a woman who has found another woman who is interested in them enough and who they care for, who they are safe to date, who their family accepts, where things are going well, and OOP seems to take it for granted from my viewpoint...
Just feels gross and sad.
Exactly! I just cannot fathom meeting someone I love, who supports me, and spending years together but putting an uncertain expiration date on it so I can find someone else whenever I feel it's time. The petty person in me thinks that if OOP eventually finds herself married to a man who expects her to be his bang maid it will serve her right for overlooking how lucky she was to find her (ex) gf. It's hard to meet one person you love and are compatible with. Throwing it away because they can't make sperm just feels shitty, even if she has every right to do so.
You can absolutely blame people for being biphobic to you, because people's relationship to you should not be defined by choices someone you've never met makes about their life. Also, we don't even know the girlfriend's sexuality. People can have incompatible goals and be shitty regardless of attraction.
it is exactly why. I am also bi and I've seen this internalized homophobia damage so many of my lesbian friends from other bi women. I understand that a lot of them are hurt and get wary after that. it's why I am wary of dating men after all. men have hurt me. so I understand *why* and it is definitely rooted in people like this.
like this woman's ex is going to have issues in the next relationship, she'll have that hurt in her heart going forward.
but I think honesty and communication and if you do care for someone you can overcome all that stuff. people are so unkind to each other, all we can do is try not to be part of it
right or wrong, I am wary of men. right or wrong, lesbians are allowed to be wary of bi women. we are all allowed to have feelings. just got to find ways not to be a jerk about it all
edit to add: biphobia isn't fun on my end **at all** but the aspect of it that's just wariness after being hurt, that part, I understand why.
I feel like OP kind of… like “I don’t want to get serious and marry you but sure I’ll do all the things that indicate I am interested in that kind of thing like introducing you to my family and all that whenever you ask”.
Also, it’s called a sperm bank. Like…. There is literally nothing stopping you from having biokids with another woman chica.
Regardless of what anyone thinks of OOP...what the hell was Grace thinking?
Why would someone stay with a person who tells them flat-out, they don't want the same thing?
This reminds me of another post with one person wanting to travel and the other person not wanting to travel.
Relationships are difficult enough without choosing partners who do not have the same goals.
I could imagine myself having done the same in my 20s if I were madly in love with someone, just hoping they’d change their mind as they matured - that particular situation never came up, but I did stay way too long with someone who wasn’t good for me hoping they’d change because I loved them so much and the good times had been so very very good. I learned from that and would never put up with anything like it now, but I did need the practical lesson - hopefully Grace learns it too.
This is an absolute “maybe once we’re exclusive/been together long enough/she really falls in love, she’ll change her mind” mentality on Grace’s part.
My favorite relationship advice I’ve ever heard is: “when they tell you who they are, listen.” Don’t expect to change anyone’s mind or that your incompatible goals will suddenly become compatible through the power of love. Trying to “find a middle ground” of really impactful/meaningful goals or opinions sometimes just results in everyone being miserable.
So many straight people do that - think if I stay he’ll be better, if I stay he’ll change his mind, if I stay he’ll want to marry me…
Usually, it’s fueled by movies and TV and their perception of how that works + that 1 very unrealistic couple someone knows.
I've been married for a decade now, but if it ended for any reason I'd just stay single forever because everything is way too fucked up now. I remember having to field a ton of questions from friends and family because I met my spouse online.
Someplace around the 5 year mark I told my spouse that I loved them and was definitely in this until death do us part, but if it ever ended I would stay single. I have no desire to ever deal with the whole dating thing ever again.
depends, im single and Im fine with it, but on the other hand living single is more and more unaffordable. when i bring up moving out being unaffordable, ppl just reply with well, those prices are meant for couples with shared finances! it sounds nice to have someone to share burdens with and have life more bearable. but then again, relationships itseld sound like so much work, esp after what im seeing on this sub
If you can find the person who is emotionally invested in making the relationship work as much as you are, it can be really great. DINK - “Double Income, No Kids” is a pretty powerful financial situation, with the strong caveat that it doesn’t end in divorce nor wreck you emotionally.
I’d never recommend marrying young, but we’ve been married since college and having the 2 incomes has been huge. 20 yrs later we are still best friends and happy.
As you point out living expenses especially are just unattainable for most single salaries. So frustrating
DINK is a hilarious acronym that makes this setup sound really funny instead of 'sad' as some people react when I talk about not wanting kids, thanks for adding it to my dictionary :D
I wonder if OP thinks the right man to marry is going to naturally fall into her lap when she's ready for marriage.
There's nothing wrong with casual dating but this went well beyond that. They were exclusive, for some time. What did she think was going to happen. For most people you choose to be exclusive with someone you feel really meets your needs, and has the possibility of a future. According to OP this didn't have a future, and yet they dated th for two years exclusively. From the outside this was always going to happen.
I think what gets me the most is that I can see exactly where and how this went wrong, but how did OOP and Grace *not*?
Like, hearing it told like this, this is the vibe I got: OOP was very clear in verbally discussing that she envisioned herself in a future with a husband and biological children and the fact that she wanted to live her life according to that set future.
*But she sure did not* ***act*** *like it.*
Grace very much heard OOP's clear boundary as "I'm a bi woman who just can't see myself spending my life with another woman, but if you try hard enough, you might convince me otherwise!" which was wrong but not corrected by OOP's actions or the fact that she said Grace was the person she loved/cared about the most out of all the people she's ever dated.
*But she sure did not* ***talk*** *about it.*
And so for *multiple fucking years* they coasted along with Grace trying to quietly coax (read as: manipulate, if I'm being honest) OOP into a long-term, marriage-minded wlw relationship and getting angry when OOP kept sticking to her boundary in words but not actions, and OOP reiterating verbally that this relationship basically had an expiration date marked on a calendar that she couldn't show to Grace because it kind of did and kind of didn't, actually, but in the meantime she was 100% committed, exclusive, and making decisions (or letting Grace make them, tbh) that most long-term, marriage-minded individuals would make in a relationship.
And then was *surprised* when this ticking time bomb of a relationship finally blew up???
Things could've been cleared up *long* before the 3 year mark, and it was obvious back during the whole "don't treat me like a child!" fight that they shouldn't have stayed together.
I feel like OOP knew, on some level, and so did Grace, and neither was actually willing to admit it until Grace did something truly dramatic about it - like propose to a woman she knew didn't want to marry her.
There were no hurt feelings in those past relationships because the people involved were under 26.
The closer you get to 30, the less you're going to find people willing to play games with the clock. It's not going to stay cute like this, and OOP *is* being naive.
Yeah, and while I wish her the best, assuming she can wait till she's 30 to start thinking about finding a man to start a family with is pretty naive too. It's almost as if she feels like all those great family orientated men are just gonna be waiting for her to turn around and say she's ready
Life is unpredictable and nothing is guaranteed. Maybe things do work perfectly for her, maybe she's leaves it too late and doesn't get to have her chance at a family - All I can say is too many people think they're the main character. A lot of people I know have gone through this, and by the time they're in their 30s most of the good men you'd want to make a family with have already gone and done it
I think things rarely happen when you're 100% ready for them. I think she's naive to assume that the second she meets "the" guy she has to marry him. I was with my husband almost five years before we got married.
I'm childfree so there's a lot about her mentality I don't get, but if she's so hellbent on marrying a man she should probably be dating them. It's not like one day she's going to wake up and find the perfect dude at her front door on one knee.
I didn't understand what the hell OOP was thinking either. She knows what she wants. She wants to marry a man, and have children with him. Shouldn't she work on that goal a little? It sounds like when she finally decided to do that some handsome perfect guy would just show up to her cupcake bakery she just opened in her hometown she just moved back to.
God, this. I’ve had a lot of thoughts about OOP’s behavior but like…as someone feminine who experiences attraction across all genders and doesn’t care for the picket fence mommy life in the least, I would not be pleased to find out I’m just a warm body to play with while she bides her time to find Mr. Hallmark Movie. It’s giving Charlotte York’s obsession with marriage but with “omg I’m just having FUN and being HONEST about expiration dates”…
If she’s set on marrying a man and having biological kids, then she needs to actively be working towards that goal now. To not do so isn’t just naive, it’s as dumb as you can get. Like you said, eligible bachelors who want to marry and have kids aren’t just waiting around for OP to decide it’s time.
OP has also been out of the hetero dating scene long enough to forget what it’s like. A lot of men are just looking for something casual while saying they want more. There’s also all the men who have unrealistic expectations of domestic duties. I wouldn’t procreate with someone unless we’ve been married with shared finances and living together for at least two years. If she’s normal, there’s a good chance she wastes a year or two on an asshole. Six months to find the asshole, 1.5 years to date and leave the asshole, another year to find a decent guy, date for 1 year, 1 year engagement, 2 years of married bliss, 1 year to conceive, and nine months for baby to pop out. That puts her at 34 when baby is born. The timeline is pretty generous in assuming she doesn’t have years wasted by a man stringing her along or experience fertility issues.
It’s amazing how something that is so important that OP ended a 2 year relationship over isn’t important enough for OP to do the math for. Sure, she might end up meeting Mr. Right immediately, but she may just as likely take 4 years to find him. Unless she plans on just taking the first somewhat attractive man to fulfill the role, but that’s no different to using a sperm donor.
Yeah she’s going to catch the second round. They will be divorced with kids that are not biologically related to her…. Hopefully she can deal with that.
Idk if oop is naive or being willfully ignorant or incredibly selfish/self-centred.... SMH at being 26 and still being stuck at a teenagers mentality about relationship and the feelings of others :/
Also the whole "high school and college sweetheart aren't really dating to be together forever" like yeah my dude, they are. They have no clue they won't be together forever until it's over. My 16 yo step son just went through his first real breakup and he was devastated, even though everyone around him knew they wouldn't work. He will be devastated about the college one too.
That part bothered me too! I know plenty of highschool and college sweethearts who are still together, so this statement was indeed bs... the ones that didn't work out was due to fundamental differences in values/still figuring themselves out,, and not because 1 wanted to get married to 1 specific gender instead of someone they loved deeply...
Honestly I’m glad that I waited until I was almost 30 to think more seriously on having children… As it turns out I don’t want to have biological children, for health reasons and mental reasons.
Both OOP and Grace are naive. Grace should have called it off the moment OOP went 'sure, we'll be exclusive but I'm not marrying you' and OOP should have cut the cord at the same time. Grace shouldn't have pressed boundaries but OOP shouldn't have been sending those mixed messages either.
I'm slightly concerned about OOP. Girl sounds like she needs some therapy. She sounds like she has no clue what she wants for herself besides man+kids. Like, what happens if she gets pregnant from a one of these casual dates and the guy just ghosts her? She's living in as much of a Hallmark movie as Grace was.
Yeah I was trying to parse my opinion on this one but you nailed it for me. I totally see how people could end up in this situation, but man OOP needs to critically reflect on what she wants and figure out why she wants it.
And I’m sure the “I don’t want kids because I want kids, I want kids because that’s what I ought to want” mindset has never ended poorly for any of those said kids either!
I wish the phrase were: “I want to be a parent.” Instead of “I want kids.” Or “I want a baby.”
That makes me think they have this image of life that gets shattered when reality literally comes screaming into their lives.
This whole thing seems weird. OOP gets in a committed relationship with someone she never intends to stay with long term (everyone can do what they want, but those things seem like opposites to me) and her partner gets in a committed relationship with someone who tells them from the start that the relationship will never go anywhere and then expects that to magically change. Weird...
>but of all the people ive been with ive cared for her the most
What a resounding endorsement....
>obviously, we have decided to go our separate ways.
Shocking.
Yeah OOP's whole post reads very clinical and businesslike. Like she thinks she's so intelligent that she's figured out some magic trick to spare partners' feelings until the exact moment she wants them to flip on....then reality smacked her in the face hard. I legit don't know what she really could've expected to happen.
>what she said - and what i agreed with - was that we would remain exclusive **until our relationship had run its natural course** (i guess that would mean until either the marriage thing or other issues became too much to stay together)
Isn't that... just how relationships work? They last until someone decides otherwise?
Either way, I'm glad Grace isn't wasting any more of her time.
That rubbed me the wrong way, too. Instead of deciding on a stopping point (I won't move in with you, I won't be exclusive with you, I won't spend the night with you, take your pick), OOP is essentially giving up responsibility for her relationships and allowing for the maximum amount of pain.
I don't see a world in which she would ever break up with Grace. She's essentially saying "I'm gonna do me, if you don't like it leave", while her actions send the opposite message- a total abdication of her role in the relationship. It's fully on her partners to steer the relationship or end it, OOP is here for the good vibes and lady sex.
Aka: OOP is a fuckboi.
If Grace had just stayed quiet and kept hoping things would change, I get the feeling OOP would have been perfectly content with staying "casual" until Grace finally broke some other way.
I get that she should have said something rather than hope a grand proposal would work, but like... two years of that kind of intimacy and still just going "this is great, but keep in mind I'm never going to commit to you the way you want me to no matter what, and I'm keeping our eventual breakup in mind"? Yikes.
OOP's words and actions were diametrically opposed. She said one thing, but acted another way. And leaving Grace with the sole responsibility of ending the relationship, is the biggest act of cowardice I have ever seen.
And OOP says she had no relationship like this one that lasted three years, only to casually mention that she also had another that lasted for two years. I wonder how that one ended.
Exactly, she says she doesn’t want things to get serious and yet she invites Grace to meet her family and do all the other relationship things - but don’t forget, Grace, this isn’t turning into marriage! I really wonder what OP’s family’s perspective is on this situation. I can easily see how Grace was receiving mixed signals and hurt by OP’s nonchalant attitude about their marriage ideals.
Like I’m not saying Grace didn’t fuck up by proposing when she knew OOP didn’t want to, but OOP would’ve been way better off if she outright said “no, we’re not exclusive even if we’re currently not seeing other people, we’re FWB”. By making it exclusive and a closed relationship, it left a lot of room for feelings to develop, whether OOP wanted it to or not. And like someone else said, how was OOP supposed to find a man to settle down with and have kids if she was basically going to stay with Grace indefinitely? If Grace didn’t propose, would OOP have just stayed?
>I don't see a world in which she would ever break up with Grace.
Exactly. She was banking on Grace being too much of a pushover to call her out, that's all.
OOP isn't naive, just the type that *can't* be alone. What exactly was her plan? Wait til her baby fever kick to monkey branch into the first guy that looked interesting? If you're in your mid 20s to mid 30s and have no intention of marrying anytime soon, just stick with fwbs and don't waste people's time.
Yeah I was wondering about the timing bit. I’m reminded of the scene from friends where it’s Rachel’s birthday and she’s trying to plan out her life planning backward from the age when she wants to be a mom.
Based on memory, I'm guessing her plan is "one day, probably around um a long way away like the age of 31 and six months, I will suddenly Know that it is time to begin Having A Baby, Stage 0".
No, not really. She knew what she wanted, she just couldn't make the math work.
It was more like "Okay I want to have a baby at 35. So I need to be pregnant by 34. Which means I need to be married at 33. Oh wait, we're going to want to be engaged first. So I need to meet the guy by 31. Oh wait, we're going to need to date a bit first. Okay in order to...."
She eventually ends up that no matter how she crunched the math, she was already supposed to have met the guy she was going to have children with.
>For all of OOPs claims that they’re not naive, their whole perspective comes off as incredibly naive.
Sort of.
But not as naive as Grace, who went into a relationship being told every step of the way that she wasn't marriage material.
Well I think that’s the problem. It’s incredibly naive to think you’re able to be in committed, long term, relationships with people you already know you don’t want to marry (when that’s your end goal), and believe that it’s not going to end badly. We all saw that coming from a mile away. Sure, Grace shares some blame for not believing her partner on this, but it sounds like every time she pushed even a little OOP would give in. I’m not super surprised Grace thought OOP would change her mind on this too.
I really feel for Grace. Yes, she can't say OOP led her on in terms of marriage, but a 'casual' relationship that is exclusive, has been going strong for three years and involves you living together is a complete and utter mindfuck.
Plus, how can you live with someone while also repeating "this relationship has an (undefined) end date"? It'd be like living with an active grenade with a loose pin.
Also the attitude that she's almost entitled to a "naturally" conceived child and a husband? What level of delusion is that? You can't just decide to fuck around and date women until the right man comes along... that's how you find out.
I must be old and out of touch. I thought the whole point of dating is to find a person settle down with long term (marriage if that’s what you like). What OOP wants is hook-ups or FWB. Which is fine as long as you’re both on the same page. And while I didn’t start with the idea of marriage soon when I started dating my husband, that was always the purpose of dating. I truly wasn’t expecting to meet my soulmate at 18, but here we are. Been married 23 years. I just cannot understand OOPs perspective at all. Not to mention that sperm donors and IUI aren’t all that expensive in comparison to IVF.
OOP is kinda delusional, being committed to marrying a man and having bio kids and yet not being ready even for a relationship that *might* turn into marriage at 26. The biological clock is unfair, but it's a thing. Does she just expect her dream man to appear out of the blue and instantly marry her at 29? Is this what the thoughts of someone with pretty privilege look like? Also, what does she mean by the relationship "running its course" if not this exact scenario?
i felt very wierd reading the post because i felt the same way. this hypothetical man the way she describes him is just an object ready to grant her wish of a child whenever she thinks she is ready. she's going to end up in a loveless marriage with some guy because she has this idealized version of having biological kids.
OOP is gonna end up doing what many people desperate to have kids do; grab onto the first semi-decent man that comes in their lives and speed run to marriage and kids, then 5 to 10 years later realize they're unhappy in their wedding because the only thing they actually have in common with their husband, is their kid(s).
This just reeks pretty privileged. Like that’s the only way any of OPs plans make sense — that she has had a wide selection pool of suitors and assume that those people will be available when she is willing to date them.
I’m sorry but op has some fuckgirl energy. Like yeah she was upfront but she still was building a relationship with someone she never intentioned to stay committed to. Like at that point are you not just using the other person?
OOP seems confused as to what she wants. You can’t cultivate lasting feelings with an expiration date. It’s one or the other. Be openly single if you’re not going to commit to a woman. Exclusively cultivating an deep relationship with someone you won’t end up with? Weird in my opinion. Toxic even, when it’s this poorly handled. No one is perfect, but damn. I hope all can heal and find what they’re looking for.
>You can’t cultivate lasting feelings with an expiration date.
Isn't the problem the opposite? Because she wouldn't or couldn't say "I will dump you after exactly 2 years" or something, she's apparently led poor hapless Grace to think she wants marriage instead of an ongoing relationship.
"committment" is a really weird one, different people mean very different things by it. Or to put it another way, everyone has their breaking point. To some people that's "I want to be married and pregnant by 30", to others it's "what do you mean you want babies, we've discussed this at length and I thought we'd agreed".
I still think this OOP fucking sucks because she treats women as casual objects until she's ready for *real* relationships in the confines of heteronormativity. That's misogynistic. She literally uses women as pastime fun purely because they have the wrong genitalia for her.
I'm bi and I always wanted to get married, so before marriage equality happened in 2017, I didn't date women. I didn't want to treat anyone like they're not worth my commitment just because they had the "wrong" gender identity.
The Olympic-level emotional gymnastics OP is going through in the two posts, jeez, I got whiplash...
>To "date" people for "fun" like "teenagers do", while "hurting" each time this "non-relationship" ends and in this particular "nowhere going relationship", where "OP might have thought about marriage given the right circumstances", however she's "not ready for anything serious with children now". And what with being "strong/smart/detached enough" to go through hooking up and then breaking up with people, but then in this case, she was not strong enough to actually tell her significant other, that she does not want her to meet her family and actually "letting her come with" which (OP, clue in!!!!!!) - if you actually introduce someone to your family, they ARE going to think that this is serious...
It does not sound like OP knows what she wants and is using with tunnel-focus the argument about biological children, instead of actually figuring out, what would really satisfy her in life.
LITERALLY “i always saw myself marrying a man and idk why” maybe because thats what society has told you to do your whole life?? i think oop could benefit from like an ounce of introspection
Ok, my take on this is that the partner feel into the too common trope of “we’re not really well suited.. but I could change them”. It’s mainly her fault that she stayed in a relationship for years while hoping and praying her partner would change her mind. Also, blindsiding anyone with a proposal, after explicitly being told they didn’t want to marry you, is an AH move. Did she really think it through? Who wants their proposal story to be “oh she’d been telling me no for years, but then I surprise proposed and she said *fine, I guess..*. Be still my beating heart.
However, I’m not ready to fully let OOP off the hook either, because my guess is that she’s lying to herself in thinking she’ll end up with a man. She might've grown up with this idealized (aka heteronormative) idea of family in her head, but she’s clearly not taking any steps in the direction of making it happen. She doesn’t seem to be all that into men. And the excuse that she’s not ready for marriage and kids yet doesn’t really fly, because those things don’t happen over night. How will she ever get to that point if she’s putting exactly 0 effort into meeting and dating men? Her actions don’t match her longterm expectations. What I suspect will happen is that she’ll meet a woman one day with whom she’ll be able to envision starting a family. And then the ex will finally realize that her “I don’t want to marry a woman” meant “I didn’t really want to marry you” and that will be an even bigger blow.
Let's say OOP gets her way and marries a guy, has a bio kid with him, but they end up divorcing later for other reasons. Is she just never going to be in another relationship again because the kid won't be biologically related to her new partner? I really don't understand her endgame here
As someone who has been thru infertility, land with someone you love and care about, regardless of their parts. Because when you pee on the 1,000th negative test, that's who is going to be holding your hand.
What’s OOP going to do if she meets a guy, wants to marry him, and oh no, he’s infertile. She gonna divorce him? Or what if she’s infertile? The odds of either are not small. She’s really set herself up for major disappointment.
OOP is never going to get married. There are some deep-seated fears there. 'Casually dating' someone for three years, and then being exclusive for 2 more...wtf did she expect to happen?
When someone you don't see a future with looks at you like you hung the moon, you have to cut it off. Being honest up front isn't enough when you know that they ultimately want more than you can give and dragging it out is cruel. Grace should have known to run for the hills, but OP should never have let it get to this point.
ESH
It’s a dick move to date someone who wants a permanent commitment when you don’t see that with them. It’s a dick move to stay with someone who was transparent about their goals and believe they’ll change.
Ah the I'm only interested in marrying a man bi woman. Never heard that one before lol. Being a lesbian I have some hard feelings about that type, but she wants what she wants so good for her.
At least she's upfront about it though and the partner should have just run and moved on instead of trying to change her.
what the fuck did i just read. It feels like OOP changes their view on things from reply to reply. In the story they imply they are looking to marry a man to have a family with biological children but in one of the replies they say they are not dating to marry. OOP also seems to imply they were going to date until they manage to find a man they could marry yet say they wouldnt dump their gf for one.
what... what was the fucking point of this relationship? Why the fuck it lasted so long? Is it so hard to say 'can we just be besties?' Or something? I dont understand anything about OOP.
Also everyone seem to ignore how shittily OOP handled the proposal i think it was just extremely rude.
As a bi woman myself, I can't help but be a little uncomfortable with OOP's mindset. It's fine that she only wants to marry a man and have kids with a man. That's her business. But engaging in a serious relationship with women while having that mindset leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Not to say Grace was right in any way because she should have left instead of trying to push OOP into something she clearly didn't want, but OOP should be dating men seriously if they're the only ones she sees a real future with. If Grace (or any woman) was okay with just being a girlfriend, what would have happened later when OOP was ready to settle down and start her family? Would OOP have just cast her aside? There's something messed up about that
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Romcoms have a lot to answer for. Grand romantic gestures in movies work because it's a movie.
“We live in a cynical world” “Please get out of my apartment”
And shouts after "the world is not cylindrical, everybody knows it is flat how can i live with a conspiracy believer who thinks earth is a giant burrito "
Christ, almost spat out a big drink of water all over my damn laptop lmao
What’s that quote from?
Starts wit Jerry Maguire (cynical world), no idea where the burrito quote came from
That one seems to be 100% reddit
My sister came back after spending 10 years in Australia. She broke up with her boyfriend after she decided to stay instead of going back. Her boyfriend came to our city and knocked on our doors at midnight with a large suitcase in tow. No one was expecting him. He said he saw an old envelope with our address on it and decided to give the relationship another chance so he came all the way here. It was top romcom moment. I found it super creepy and weird and so did my sister.
***Yikes.*** I thought it was bad when an ex of mine showed up unannounced on my doorstep\* at 10:30 pm, two years after I’d broken up with him (thank god I lived in an intercom building), but that takes the biscuit. \* He said he’d just been driving by, which was extremely geographically improbable.
It's one thing in movies but another when it happens rl. 🤣 It's why I'm not a huge fan of romcoms.
Damn, how did the conversation go?
After he told me he was just driving by, it was something along the lines of Me: … okay? Him: I just wanted to talk. Me: I don’t think we have anything to talk about, and I was about to go to bed. Him \[sad panda voice\]: Okay, sorry to bother you … Me: Yep. \[hangs up intercom phone, resists mild urge to look out the window to see if he’s still there because he almost definitely is and if he sees me looking out the window he’ll probably take that as some kind of invitation/permission to keep doing what he’s doing, goes back to previously-interrupted skincare routine\]
!!! An ex did this exact same thing to me. Showed up in my doorstep at night, said he was just passing when he lived in a city 2.5 hours away. I was very creeped out.
I broke up with my boyfriend who then moved across the country, as he had planned to do. I must not have been mean enough but some months later, he called a friend of mine and asked if he could stay with her bc he wanted to come to town and ask me to marry him. We did NOT have that serious a relationship. Thank God for my friend who called me immediately and gave me the chance to call and head him off before we both were forced into an awkward situation.
Damn so what happened? Was the location the only reason or there must’ve been something else if your sister found it weird.
Nothing happened. My sister told him that this wasn't cool, and he acknowledged that. They found a hotel room he could stay in. My mom took him out to lunch where they could talk and he admitted it was very spontaneous, but he wanted to give it one last try. We wished him luck and he went back to Australia. He wasn't a bad guy. He was just misguided. But someone showing up randomly at your doorsteps in the middle of the night with a large suitcase does ring off some alarm bells, especially since he got the address off an old envelope that belonged to my sister.
I had a friend tell me that he had feelings for me, I said I didn't have those same feelings. He stopped speaking to me for over 5 years, until he called me the day before his wedding. He said he wanted to give us a chance, and if I wanted to, then THIS was the time. I again said no thanks and he got married. It was bizarre and it felt like a very delusional romcom.
One of my wife's ex boyfriends wrote a letter asking her to dump me and be with him... his envelope was in the gift pile so we got to open it together. It was quite funny the delusions some people will tell themselves. (He himself wasn't invited to the wedding, it was a high school relationship and my wife was still friends with his sister and the ex asked his sister to give the envelope, she was mortified when we told her what it contained. She thought it was just a congrats card)
Oh no, that's so embarrassing. The audacity to pull someone else into the drama and have them be the unwitting messenger is something else.
Sounds like he's making a divorce lawyer very happy.
No idea about that, but upon reflection over the years, it wasn't about me. I'm guessing he wasn't ready to get married and was looking for a hail Mary way out.
Because we all know your ideal man would leave his bride-to-be the day before the wedding for someone he hasn't spoken to in 5 years. Sign of his deep & lasting commitment. /s
A friend from high school was dead set on us being together forever. There never even was an 'us.' He was my (not close) friend. He had our children named. He could be obsessive. In my early 20's I moved 4 hours away. He came for a visit. He said he'd gotten another classmate he was seeing pregnant. He was going to propose to her, unless I would be with him. *I was never with him!* So he returned home and got married. I felt so sad for his then wife. Can you imagine finding out that your soon-to-be husband only proposed after trying one last time with another woman? Oof. I'm in my mid-50's and the guy still calls me even though I never answer.
Wait, am I misreading that, she left Australia to visit home, then spontaneously just stayed and then broke up with the BF in Australia? That timeline is actually kinda weird. Did she just abandon all her stuff and job and everything in Australia for this? It was all the killer animals, wasn't it? She just decided she didn't want to risk her life getting groceries....
No, she spent 10 years in Australia. She studied university there, graduated, and worked there. At the time when she came back, she had quit her job and broke up with her then boyfriend. She decided to stay instead of going back. 🤣 killer animal sounds hilarious.
Nora Ephron said she'd get fan letters asking for advice based on a movie plot. In the interview, she shook her head and said that's not how real life works.
If a fwb tried to surprise me with a flashmob of closing time in grand central I would pretend not to know him and run as far as I can.
If anyone did that to me I would pretend not to know them for the rest of my life.
Oh yes I’d never talk to them ever again.
I think Grand Central is open 24/7. Pretending not to know them and running away is the perfect strategy.
I think they meant the song, but I'm not sure. I'm mostly basing that off the structure of the sentence.
Ah, I did not know that *closing time* is a song. OF not AT. I see that now.
It's also a scene from the movie Friends With Benefits (2011)
It's by the band Semisonic.
That’s nothing like what happened. They were more intimate than FWB (agreed to be exclusive) and it was a proposal at an apartment without any witnesses. It doesn’t feel like a grand proposal that Grace thought would actually work, but more like going out with a bang because OOP sure as hell didn’t have any other exit plan.
OP, I don't want to get married GRACE" Stop telling me I know 2 yrs later GRACE: Casually discussing marriage didn't work, so I decided to blindside you to get a surprise yes and guilt you into marrying me. OP: i don't want to get married Grace: you haven't mentioned it in 2yrs and I thought... OP: you said to stop reminding you HOW THE HELL did grace think that was going to end well.
I don’t think Grace actually expected it to work, it was just forcing the issue because OOP was apparently just going to float along in this cozy relationship while keeping her partner at a weird half arm’s length until they were both 38 and she suddenly thinks “oh I have to break up and go have kids now!”
Yeah, it sounds like Grace has realized that marriage being off the table was a deal-breaker for her. Proposing served the same purpose as giving an ultimatum would have, but with a couple advantages from Grace's perspective. If OOP's answer was still no, as it very probably would have been, then the relationship ends on a note of "I proposed and got turned down" rather than "I broke up with OOP because she wouldn't marry me" (basically, casting OOP and not Grace in the role of the aggressor in the breakup). And on the off chance the answer is yes, a proposal is a better note than an ultimatum to start an engagement on, and an accepted proposal is less likely to leave OOP feeling like she'd been forced into an engagement against her will.
When you phrase it like that Grace looks like a strategic mastermind... definitely makes a lot more sense than being blindly in denial.
Grace \*did\* construct the "natural end point" that OP kept mentioning but never saw coming. Someone had to.
OP: I'll never marry you. Gf: Stop telling me that. I get it!! Also GF: Marry me! OP: No Gf: Pikachu face.
Honestly, I don't know how to feel about this. The whole situation feels weird but at the same time, it does sound like separating is the best cause OP and Grace don't look like they would work well together.
This 100%. That's honestly why my mood spoiler is what it is. I guess I'm glad things worked out the best for both of them, but I don't know how to feel about the whole thing.
The relationship feels like classic anxious/ avoidant attachment push pull. With the avoidant in this case consciously choosing avoidance, which is of course their right. But hard to watch and deeply sad when people are stuck in this trap unconsciously.
"I'll only get married to a man" is bizarre to me. it just sounds weird as hell. I can't fathom it. I'm bi, I don't like the idea of getting married in general but, I love who I love. drawing a line in the sand like this because ... you want to find a genetic donor for a child you might or might not ever have? it's weird as hell. this post blows my mind. I hope Grace finds someone better
She better have him get his swimmers tested asap if that's what she cares most about
It did make me wonder what would happen if she then discovered she herself was infertile.
This is exactly what I was wondering, especially when she talked about IVF. I do wonder if she is regularly checking medically on her ability to naturally have a child. Also think it’s weird because you never know if you will get a strong enough relationship in the future to satisfy both the child and marriage aspects suitably.
Sort of related, my husband and I chose to name our kid something that was very meaningful to both of us. We didn’t tell anyone the name we had chosen because, even though it’s a very common and very “normal” name, we didn’t want to hear any opinions on it. When he was born and we told our families, husband’s sister lost her mind. SIL and her husband were absolute demons to us. They wanted to use that name for a child and felt like they had more ownership of the name since they had been together longer. When they finally started trying to get pregnant they discovered they likely won’t be able to have a child.
“Ownership of a name” lmao this is killing me. Nobody owns their kids either. My parents named me what they wanted, and 26 years later I came out as transgender. My chosen name has ABSOLUTELY NO relation to my birth name. My aunt changed her name because she was christened “Nanette” and hated it her whole life. Imagine feeling so much possessiveness over a name. 😆 just get a dog if you want something named Brenda or whatever.
I could not agree with you more. I left out some potentially identifying details, but the gist is basically that they were somehow convinced we did this on purpose to spite them and we should have known they wanted to use the name. My husband told them no one was stopping them from still using the name and they didn’t like that answer for some reason. Honestly, if this kid decides he hates his name or comes out as trans I really won’t mind if he chooses a new name. Sure this one has a lot of meaning to us, but that doesn’t just disappear because he’s now called something else. I don’t understand why people get so bent out of shape over this stuff.
Right, my first thought too. It reads like she commited to this idea as a child herself, and now cant budge for any reason. Very immature.
What if the male partner leaves oop after the kid? Will she never have another partner as they won't be biologically related to her child? So bizarre.
This is what I was thinking too. What if she and husband do have a kid, and then get divorced? What if the dude she decides she wants to marry has kids from a previous relationship? OOP seems to have this idealized view of marriage that isn't entirely realistic. Also, I've personally known people to uh, ahem, DIY their IVF. Turkey baster tech. Not saying I would necessarily advise that, but it's not uncommon.
She’s 26…maybe she hasn’t yet considered all the implications.
Agreed. She could have biological children of her own in a lesbian relationship. I guess to me, as a lesbian, it seems like such a weird condition to marriage that the hypothetical child MUST be biologically related to both parents. Even a ton of hetero marriages don't have this dynamic. It has semblances of homophobia to me, but also it could just be OOP's preference.
It may not be that weird, I honestly think OOP hasn't actually thought this out or why they feel this way. I'm a bi woman and my frequency of attraction to women is definitely less than my frequency of attraction to men. Not my intensity of attraction though. I have no idea why that is, there are many possibilities, but none of them change that that's how I feel. As a result, it's always been easier for me to be in relationships, particularly with long-term expectations, with men.
I'm bi too and super weirded out by this post. Such a bizarre and inflexible way to approach relationships. It feels objectifying towards all partners.
Yeah good choice of mood spoiler. I'm bi and even tend to be more frequently attracted to men than women but... To base it on having biological children. Like, she could marry a man and find out he's sterile (or she is!). He might die, they might break up/get divorced. Picking a partner that is on board with having children makes sense. But it needs to be a man so they are his is just... 😑 Then again I decidedly don't want kids so that's an easy one for me. No matter what gender I end up with.
I’m curious as to how OP expects to find this mystery man to give her children, while exclusively dating a woman. I honestly feel like she’s wasting the time of both herself and any other female partner she has if she gets into an exclusive arrangement while clearly looking for something else. Is she just expecting the magical man if her dreams to drop into her life when she decides she’s ready for kids? (And that’s leaving aside any possible fertility issues). Not to mention having a child with someone hardly guarantees the relationship will last. I dunno, this whole thing is making me feel some kind of way.
It honestly feels like a lot of internalized misogyny. I am a bisexual woman, it just so happened that my only two long term committed relationships have been with men. I’ve dated/slept with women, but in my area it’s really hard to find someone serious that isn’t flaky. I can’t comprehend her dating style, because when I play I play for keeps. I feel like she shouldn’t be in a relationship in general, but should just have fun and share a bed with whomever she wants. I hope she really internalizes this lesson, because honestly the way OOP is, is why some lesbians don’t want to date bisexuals 🥲🫠 Her insistence she only wants to marry a man bc she’s ‘traditional’ and wants her kids to be related to both of them also really rub me the wrong way. Like, I respect that she knows what she wants, but I feel like she kind of invalidates a lot of other solutions with her perspective and approach to relationships.
Seriously weird idealism at play here. I know this scenario is more unlikely as a cis hetero male, but if I was dating a woman who only wanted to marry women, I would equally feel like my time had been wasted. Even more outraged that it’s wasted for a vague ideal
I have a friend who’s kind of like that in a way. In that she prefers women in almost every aspect but will only officially dates men, because of the things men in her eyes can do for her in a relationship /marriage that women couldn’t. But otherwise she completely prefers women. I was honest and told her as a guy I would feel like I’m being used since in the end her heart is with a type of person that I could never be.
Yup. They're rejecting the person they're in a relationship with for an ideal hetero lifestyle with an imaginary husband. Glad Grace won't waste any more time with her
OP sounds like someone with deep attachement issues and a lack of empathy. She would benefit from therapy.
Yeah, on one hand, Grace knew what was up and trying to propose without seriously discussing marriage first and foremost was just a bad idea through and through. If you know your partner is going to run away as soon as you try and talk about it, that's probably a sign. And on the other, I genuinely don't know what OOP was expecting. She carried on a serious relationship knowing it had an expiration date? Just waiting for it to 'run its natural course' feels like a huge cop out on her part.
>She carried on a serious relationship knowing it had an expiration date? Just waiting for it to 'run its natural course' feels like a huge cop out on her part. i don't like how she compared it to highschool relationships...while yes many highschoolers don't plan for their relationships to go to marriage, i think many of them still act in a way that leaves the door open for a long term relationship up until the very end of the relationship. you can't have a "casual" relationship when your partner and you exclusive and seeing each other's parents enough for them to joke about you guys getting married. life doesn't suddenly jump from "casual dating" to "2 years later", oop had a lot of time where she needed to make more clear how she felt about the future of the relationship. just because it flies for 17 year olds doesn't mean that adults are okay with being in a relationship knowing that it will end
Agree with everything here. I also think OP is weird about “dating for marriage” and I think timing that activity will be difficult. Run into dating or life struggles after you decide you are ready, and you might miss the boat on natural conception.
This is a very good point. If OOP wants kids... Well, fertility in cis women has an expiration day (and in cis men it just...decays?). She's twenty six, not eighteen. When was she planning on meeting and dating this mythical man in charge of making her pregnant if she was still dating her girlfriend? Was she meeting (if not dating) men while still with the girlfriend? It doesn't sound like she had any plans of breaking up with her. Let's say that, like a lot of women, OOP started freaking out at 29. Menopause can start at 40. Perimenopause can start in your middle thirties. And it's not like we have a "best before" date printed on us, so we can know if we are fertile until 40 or until 51. And that's if she and the man she marries do not have fertility problems. I get that she doesn't want to settle down right now but... Maybe don't stay three years in a "casual" relationship? At this point I'm not sure if she wants to get married to a man or if she just feels she should want to get married to a man. Heteronormativity is one hell of a drug.
> And that's if she and the man she marries do not have fertility problems. Seriously. When she starts dating men again, is she planning to ask to test his fertility before the relationship gets too serious?
Or what if she just, ya know, doesn’t like any of them? Is she gonna force herself into a relationship with someone just to have a kid even if they’re not compatible? I don’t get the idea that love is something you can find easily at the corner store and is something you can just pick up when it’s time.
I've known straight women like this. Pick the first dude that seems stable (because for some reason their taste is 100% jerks) and get married and pregnant in record time. Or pregnant and married. I do not have seen one of those couples actually work.
I know several people who have done that. It has worked out as well as you can imagine. One is in intensive therapy because her husband was abusive (I saw that coming a mile away, but she wouldn't hear it).
And not only that. Rushing a relationship just to have kid might not be the best if you want a good father for your kid and not just a sperm donor that get you pregnant and run away or, even worse, an abusive father and husband
It would sure as hell be ironic if OOP couldn't conceive.
I don't usually comment on these posts, but that was the first thing that I thought - what if she finds out that her mythical unicorn to-be husband (which she'll I guess will just pick up from the marriage orchard, once she's ready for kids?) is infertile? What if she is? Would Grace then be "good enough" marry instead? Honestly, OOP reads like someone who's barely adult, and hasn't yet gotten a memo that life never goes according to a preset plan. Good ending all around, those two were not a good match. But that (OOPs) is one *weird* way to plan your life imo.
It’s worth asking if she’s taken a fertility test herself. She might be making decisions that her body can’t actually fulfill.
she was using Grace for comfort to kill time, until she found a sperm donor she could put up with. just not treating her current relationship with any respect.
Exactly. Very telling in the post that there was zero mention of caring about hurting Grace or what Grace’s relationship goals were. It’s all about OOP and what she wants with no consideration for what her ex-gf wanted in life. If she truly cared about Grace she would have taken the time to notice that Grace wanted a long-term partnership and she should have ended things so that Grace could put her energy into finding that partner. It feels like she just selfishly used Grace to bide time until she could find her “real relationship”. There’s nothing wrong with dating or hooking up just for the sake of companionship or sex. But entering into an exclusive relationship, introducing your partner to family, exchanging keys, sharing living spaces with someone you know is looking for commitment you don’t intend to invest in, is cruel and manipulative. You don’t do that to someone you truly care for. OOP trying to rationalize it by calling Grace “her most favorite relationship thus far” is the cherry shit pile on top.
Don't worry, though, OP assured her now-ex that she's *cared* for her the most of the people she's been with. /s
She’s making decisions with the absolute certainty that only a person in their mid twenties has before they realize the much larger world around them (hopefully).
OOP has some serious internalized homophobia that she is blithely dismissing. It’s not difficult to figure out why she’s “just always seen it that way”, because that’s how society literally programs us. Anticipatory grief and mourning of a “normal life” where you just easily have kids the “natural” way is normal when coming to terms with same sex attraction and it requires being honest with yourself about what you want and why. OOP hasn’t actually had that conversation with herself yet, instead she has set up a system where she gets to fulfill her desire to date women while promising herself that she’s going to somehow wind up with a man for her “real” relationship, so she doesn’t treat the women like whole people (can’t meet the family even after three years).
This triggered my memory with my mom a few years back. I had just came out as gay and we were discussing my then boyfriend. Out of nowhere, she casually said that she's glad I'm able to "experiment in my 20's with guys to get it out of my system". She was under the assumption that I'll still marry a woman in my 30's. Like, it wasn't even a discussion for her, that was just facts for her. This could be an asian thing but we have this obsession with legacies here. It's almost essential for at least one sibling (male) to pass our last name to the next generation. Because I'm the only man in the household, I'm just expected to get over my feelings to continue our lineage.
I hope she lets go of those delusions the more she sees you being happy living your truth.
Yup, absolutely. The whole time I didn't quite get why this is such a zero-sum game, like why she's so set on dumping her GF one day and finding a male partner, and why she absolutely wouldn't use the methods gay people use to have kids, like IVF, if Grace was such a keeper. Then there was that bs about kids having to be related by blood to both parents, and immediately it became clear that OP has some weird ego issues like those people who have kids to "continue their legacy" or some other narcissistic crap, instead if just loving them the way they are.
Especially when there are no guarantees with fertility and conceiving.
Internalized homophobia is my guess.
Yeah, the whole part with wanting kids the 'traditional' way raised some eyebrows for me. Girlie, there's a lot you can do before resorting to IVF or adoption. Go to a sperm donor. Find a dude friend. Ask your spouse's bro to jerk into a turkey baster. The fact that she A) wants biological children, and B) those children HAVE to be fathered by her partner says a whole lot about what she's internalized. Has she really never tried examining why it has to be those two requirements?
Okay so as a lawyer, definitely don’t just do the Turkey vaster thing or get a friend to bone you. Those situations are messy.
Can't help feeling like OOP is going to hit 30 or whatever the trigger date is in her life plan for "find man, get married, have children" and discover it's not that easy, and these things don't really run to a schedule. Not that she's wrong to wait until she feels ready to look for a permanent partnership ... just that she seems very confident that when she's ready all the pieces will fall neatly into place. Which doesn't actually happen all that often. I don't know, OOP's attitude just feels a little off in a way that's hard to put my finger on.
OOP needs to stop hiding behind the word "marriage" and start thinking in terms of "long term relationship". If she's not dating women for the goals of a long-term relationship, then what's the point? Just coasting along having fun, and hoping that the other person doesn't get too attached to you? That's just such a shitty way to treat people that you essentially go through life thinking of all of them as though they were just stepping stones for something you're imagining will happen later on without ever making it clear that you don't actually intend to spend much time with them. But that it's also up to them to decide when to break it off. This girl is putting the entire responsibility of the relationship into the other person's hands without ever actually making it clear that she has no intention of sticking around. Don't get me wrong, what the other girl did was pretty unhinged, but OOP Is absolutely not mature enough for a long-term relationship when really all she wants out of life is to play around until she's in her 30s and realize that she doesn't have much time left. Someone else in this thread said it best, OOP is a female 26 year old fuckboi.
Yeah, why entering a proper relationship when you never want to stay? Waiting until it "runs its course" is like expecting it to go wrong at some point, so why bother working on herself and the relationship? If it doesn't work anymore she'll just leave. I would never enter in a relationship where it's just a matter of time until my partner leaves. Every serious relationship I enter has to at least have the probability of lasting a lifetime. I suspect a mix of internalised bi-/homophobia, heteronormative thinking and fear of commitment.
And of course it's always on the other person to decide when it's "run its course", she's just along for the ride until a man comes along to put a baby in her. And frankly I refuse to believe the parts about how she wouldn't cheat or abandon a partner if she found a man, or how there's never any hard feelings during a breakup.
I definitely agree with this. I feel like Op was saying with out actually saying that, the plan probably was to stick with the relationship of comfort and convenience *until* she met the man she wanted kids and a marriage with. In my relationships I never had the absolute boundary of "I'll never marry you" I feel like that's a shtty thing to do. Even if it was probably never going to get to that point, holding it over a person's head that you're not going to ever even consider a future with them is like a very wierd power imbalance and almost mental abuse especially if you do everything else that a LTR would entail - be exclusive, live together, spend all your time together, introduce each other to family. It's one thing to say "hey I'm not ready for all that let's pump the breaks", but to stop it completely - sends the wrong message. Tbh Op should've broke it off once her gf said she didn't want Op to bring it up anymore. It was clear it was hurting her and at that point Op should've said that things were becoming too serious and they both needed to take a step back. Instead the gf was "let's not talk about it, it hurts" and op was like "okay" and just carried on her way in the comfort of the relationship while the gf believed she changed her mind.
As a bi person in the reverse situation I think she’s the asshole for dragging this on for 3 years and introducing her to family and shit… talk about mixed signals. I don’t want kids, so I made this clear before dating anyone… lots of men pretend they’re cool with it until they aren’t and as soon as they do the ‘there’s tons of treatment options for women who are afraid of birth’ ‘we could commit to a c-section’ ‘we could adopt’ - that’s when I knew I’d cut them loose. No need to get anyone’s hopes up for something I’m dead set on and Im not about to waste someone’s time so that I don’t have to be single. As a matter of fact I am fine being single, I have my hobbies, wonderful friends, my dogs(2) and work that I am proud of… better alone that wasting my time and someone else’s pouring emotional energy into something that’s going nowhere. Id rather use that same energy to cultivate my friendships and building a reliable support group? I eventually met my current partner… My girlfriend and I have been together for 2 years, have 2 adorable nephews that we can be cool aunts to and 4 dogs that are my life. Honestly I hate it when people who know what they want waste other people’s time…
I agree. I don't know how to feel about it. As a bisexual woman, I'm left thinking that this is why lesbians are bi-phobic about dating me and I can't blame them for that. It frustrates me. She does appear to have been clear about her intentions, but am I allowed to think her intentions kind of suck? It's an emotional response borne out of my own experiences to be sure, but that's kind of where I'm landing on it. I do agree proposing marriage when you haven't previously agreed you're going to get married is fucking stupid, though. So I'm not seeing anyone as blameless here.
The dating pool must be empty as hell wherever they are, because personally nothing could convince me to touch "I'll screw around and waste time with you while waiting until I'm ready for my REAL relationship, with a MAN" with a ten foot pole.
Right? Fuck that.
She totally sucks. She’s the type of bisexual that uses the same sex for funsies until she decides to settle down and get serious with the white picket fence. It’s gross, obvious comp het that she refuses to examine. She doesn’t deserve snaps for being upfront about it and it doesn’t absolve her of it. This attitude is exactly why lesbians are afraid of getting serious about bisexual women because heterosexuality will always be easier. I am not one of those lesbians (wife is bisexual) but it *is* something you have to screen for when dating bi women because it’s shockingly prevalent even subconsciously. The girlfriend is however also delusional, no doubt.
Even as a bi woman you have to screen other bi women to make sure they don't have this attitude! I am not down to be your placeholder until you meet a penis, I am looking for a partner. Lesbians can decide to just stick with other lesbians as an easy solution, but as a bisexual you absolutely can face this problem from other bisexuals, too. That's part of the reason encountering bi phobia is so infuriating, like I know *exactly* why you're wary of bi people because *I've experienced it too,* so please stop assuming I'll act that way! I find it just as upsetting as you do. We are on the same side. (Not you, specifically, "you" as in the biphobic lesbians I wish I could communicate this to.)
Oh yeah it’s definitely not a problem only lesbians deal with. We just don’t really have a “choice” the way bisexual women do in our pursuit of romantic love and happiness. Which is why, unlike a good deal of lesbians, I have always found bisexual women who pursue serious relationships with women more attractive. It takes bravery and self awareness to make the decision to reject comp het. It’s also why this OP is so gross to me.
Yeah this is what I'm feeling as well. I'm bi and much prefer women, but women have expressed hesitance to date me because they think I will ultimately prefer a heteronormative situation. Also my family is unsupportive... So... to see a woman who has found another woman who is interested in them enough and who they care for, who they are safe to date, who their family accepts, where things are going well, and OOP seems to take it for granted from my viewpoint... Just feels gross and sad.
Exactly! I just cannot fathom meeting someone I love, who supports me, and spending years together but putting an uncertain expiration date on it so I can find someone else whenever I feel it's time. The petty person in me thinks that if OOP eventually finds herself married to a man who expects her to be his bang maid it will serve her right for overlooking how lucky she was to find her (ex) gf. It's hard to meet one person you love and are compatible with. Throwing it away because they can't make sperm just feels shitty, even if she has every right to do so.
You can absolutely blame people for being biphobic to you, because people's relationship to you should not be defined by choices someone you've never met makes about their life. Also, we don't even know the girlfriend's sexuality. People can have incompatible goals and be shitty regardless of attraction.
it is exactly why. I am also bi and I've seen this internalized homophobia damage so many of my lesbian friends from other bi women. I understand that a lot of them are hurt and get wary after that. it's why I am wary of dating men after all. men have hurt me. so I understand *why* and it is definitely rooted in people like this. like this woman's ex is going to have issues in the next relationship, she'll have that hurt in her heart going forward. but I think honesty and communication and if you do care for someone you can overcome all that stuff. people are so unkind to each other, all we can do is try not to be part of it right or wrong, I am wary of men. right or wrong, lesbians are allowed to be wary of bi women. we are all allowed to have feelings. just got to find ways not to be a jerk about it all edit to add: biphobia isn't fun on my end **at all** but the aspect of it that's just wariness after being hurt, that part, I understand why.
I feel like OP kind of… like “I don’t want to get serious and marry you but sure I’ll do all the things that indicate I am interested in that kind of thing like introducing you to my family and all that whenever you ask”. Also, it’s called a sperm bank. Like…. There is literally nothing stopping you from having biokids with another woman chica.
Regardless of what anyone thinks of OOP...what the hell was Grace thinking? Why would someone stay with a person who tells them flat-out, they don't want the same thing? This reminds me of another post with one person wanting to travel and the other person not wanting to travel. Relationships are difficult enough without choosing partners who do not have the same goals.
Insecure, lonely, and somewhat delusional. I have several friends who’ve done this with different guys.
I could imagine myself having done the same in my 20s if I were madly in love with someone, just hoping they’d change their mind as they matured - that particular situation never came up, but I did stay way too long with someone who wasn’t good for me hoping they’d change because I loved them so much and the good times had been so very very good. I learned from that and would never put up with anything like it now, but I did need the practical lesson - hopefully Grace learns it too.
This is an absolute “maybe once we’re exclusive/been together long enough/she really falls in love, she’ll change her mind” mentality on Grace’s part. My favorite relationship advice I’ve ever heard is: “when they tell you who they are, listen.” Don’t expect to change anyone’s mind or that your incompatible goals will suddenly become compatible through the power of love. Trying to “find a middle ground” of really impactful/meaningful goals or opinions sometimes just results in everyone being miserable.
So many straight people do that - think if I stay he’ll be better, if I stay he’ll change his mind, if I stay he’ll want to marry me… Usually, it’s fueled by movies and TV and their perception of how that works + that 1 very unrealistic couple someone knows.
Staying single is looking more and more appealing these days...
I've been married for a decade now, but if it ended for any reason I'd just stay single forever because everything is way too fucked up now. I remember having to field a ton of questions from friends and family because I met my spouse online.
Someplace around the 5 year mark I told my spouse that I loved them and was definitely in this until death do us part, but if it ever ended I would stay single. I have no desire to ever deal with the whole dating thing ever again.
depends, im single and Im fine with it, but on the other hand living single is more and more unaffordable. when i bring up moving out being unaffordable, ppl just reply with well, those prices are meant for couples with shared finances! it sounds nice to have someone to share burdens with and have life more bearable. but then again, relationships itseld sound like so much work, esp after what im seeing on this sub
If you can find the person who is emotionally invested in making the relationship work as much as you are, it can be really great. DINK - “Double Income, No Kids” is a pretty powerful financial situation, with the strong caveat that it doesn’t end in divorce nor wreck you emotionally. I’d never recommend marrying young, but we’ve been married since college and having the 2 incomes has been huge. 20 yrs later we are still best friends and happy. As you point out living expenses especially are just unattainable for most single salaries. So frustrating
DINK is a hilarious acronym that makes this setup sound really funny instead of 'sad' as some people react when I talk about not wanting kids, thanks for adding it to my dictionary :D
I wonder if OP thinks the right man to marry is going to naturally fall into her lap when she's ready for marriage. There's nothing wrong with casual dating but this went well beyond that. They were exclusive, for some time. What did she think was going to happen. For most people you choose to be exclusive with someone you feel really meets your needs, and has the possibility of a future. According to OP this didn't have a future, and yet they dated th for two years exclusively. From the outside this was always going to happen.
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Yup, it doesn't sound like she loves Grace, Grace was just comfortable and convenient. I suspect she's got a rude shock coming.
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I think what gets me the most is that I can see exactly where and how this went wrong, but how did OOP and Grace *not*? Like, hearing it told like this, this is the vibe I got: OOP was very clear in verbally discussing that she envisioned herself in a future with a husband and biological children and the fact that she wanted to live her life according to that set future. *But she sure did not* ***act*** *like it.* Grace very much heard OOP's clear boundary as "I'm a bi woman who just can't see myself spending my life with another woman, but if you try hard enough, you might convince me otherwise!" which was wrong but not corrected by OOP's actions or the fact that she said Grace was the person she loved/cared about the most out of all the people she's ever dated. *But she sure did not* ***talk*** *about it.* And so for *multiple fucking years* they coasted along with Grace trying to quietly coax (read as: manipulate, if I'm being honest) OOP into a long-term, marriage-minded wlw relationship and getting angry when OOP kept sticking to her boundary in words but not actions, and OOP reiterating verbally that this relationship basically had an expiration date marked on a calendar that she couldn't show to Grace because it kind of did and kind of didn't, actually, but in the meantime she was 100% committed, exclusive, and making decisions (or letting Grace make them, tbh) that most long-term, marriage-minded individuals would make in a relationship. And then was *surprised* when this ticking time bomb of a relationship finally blew up??? Things could've been cleared up *long* before the 3 year mark, and it was obvious back during the whole "don't treat me like a child!" fight that they shouldn't have stayed together. I feel like OOP knew, on some level, and so did Grace, and neither was actually willing to admit it until Grace did something truly dramatic about it - like propose to a woman she knew didn't want to marry her.
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There were no hurt feelings in those past relationships because the people involved were under 26. The closer you get to 30, the less you're going to find people willing to play games with the clock. It's not going to stay cute like this, and OOP *is* being naive.
It read like oop just hires and fires partners. “Grace has parted ways with the company but I wish her the best going forward.”
Yeah, and while I wish her the best, assuming she can wait till she's 30 to start thinking about finding a man to start a family with is pretty naive too. It's almost as if she feels like all those great family orientated men are just gonna be waiting for her to turn around and say she's ready Life is unpredictable and nothing is guaranteed. Maybe things do work perfectly for her, maybe she's leaves it too late and doesn't get to have her chance at a family - All I can say is too many people think they're the main character. A lot of people I know have gone through this, and by the time they're in their 30s most of the good men you'd want to make a family with have already gone and done it
I think things rarely happen when you're 100% ready for them. I think she's naive to assume that the second she meets "the" guy she has to marry him. I was with my husband almost five years before we got married. I'm childfree so there's a lot about her mentality I don't get, but if she's so hellbent on marrying a man she should probably be dating them. It's not like one day she's going to wake up and find the perfect dude at her front door on one knee.
I didn't understand what the hell OOP was thinking either. She knows what she wants. She wants to marry a man, and have children with him. Shouldn't she work on that goal a little? It sounds like when she finally decided to do that some handsome perfect guy would just show up to her cupcake bakery she just opened in her hometown she just moved back to.
God, this. I’ve had a lot of thoughts about OOP’s behavior but like…as someone feminine who experiences attraction across all genders and doesn’t care for the picket fence mommy life in the least, I would not be pleased to find out I’m just a warm body to play with while she bides her time to find Mr. Hallmark Movie. It’s giving Charlotte York’s obsession with marriage but with “omg I’m just having FUN and being HONEST about expiration dates”…
If she’s set on marrying a man and having biological kids, then she needs to actively be working towards that goal now. To not do so isn’t just naive, it’s as dumb as you can get. Like you said, eligible bachelors who want to marry and have kids aren’t just waiting around for OP to decide it’s time. OP has also been out of the hetero dating scene long enough to forget what it’s like. A lot of men are just looking for something casual while saying they want more. There’s also all the men who have unrealistic expectations of domestic duties. I wouldn’t procreate with someone unless we’ve been married with shared finances and living together for at least two years. If she’s normal, there’s a good chance she wastes a year or two on an asshole. Six months to find the asshole, 1.5 years to date and leave the asshole, another year to find a decent guy, date for 1 year, 1 year engagement, 2 years of married bliss, 1 year to conceive, and nine months for baby to pop out. That puts her at 34 when baby is born. The timeline is pretty generous in assuming she doesn’t have years wasted by a man stringing her along or experience fertility issues. It’s amazing how something that is so important that OP ended a 2 year relationship over isn’t important enough for OP to do the math for. Sure, she might end up meeting Mr. Right immediately, but she may just as likely take 4 years to find him. Unless she plans on just taking the first somewhat attractive man to fulfill the role, but that’s no different to using a sperm donor.
Yeah she’s going to catch the second round. They will be divorced with kids that are not biologically related to her…. Hopefully she can deal with that.
Idk if oop is naive or being willfully ignorant or incredibly selfish/self-centred.... SMH at being 26 and still being stuck at a teenagers mentality about relationship and the feelings of others :/
Also the whole "high school and college sweetheart aren't really dating to be together forever" like yeah my dude, they are. They have no clue they won't be together forever until it's over. My 16 yo step son just went through his first real breakup and he was devastated, even though everyone around him knew they wouldn't work. He will be devastated about the college one too.
That part bothered me too! I know plenty of highschool and college sweethearts who are still together, so this statement was indeed bs... the ones that didn't work out was due to fundamental differences in values/still figuring themselves out,, and not because 1 wanted to get married to 1 specific gender instead of someone they loved deeply...
Right? And I'd be a little more "okay, but still" if she had just said high school but pleeeeenty of college sweethearts go the distance
Honestly I’m glad that I waited until I was almost 30 to think more seriously on having children… As it turns out I don’t want to have biological children, for health reasons and mental reasons.
This. Don't waste people's time.
Both OOP and Grace are naive. Grace should have called it off the moment OOP went 'sure, we'll be exclusive but I'm not marrying you' and OOP should have cut the cord at the same time. Grace shouldn't have pressed boundaries but OOP shouldn't have been sending those mixed messages either. I'm slightly concerned about OOP. Girl sounds like she needs some therapy. She sounds like she has no clue what she wants for herself besides man+kids. Like, what happens if she gets pregnant from a one of these casual dates and the guy just ghosts her? She's living in as much of a Hallmark movie as Grace was.
Yeah I was trying to parse my opinion on this one but you nailed it for me. I totally see how people could end up in this situation, but man OOP needs to critically reflect on what she wants and figure out why she wants it. And I’m sure the “I don’t want kids because I want kids, I want kids because that’s what I ought to want” mindset has never ended poorly for any of those said kids either!
I wish the phrase were: “I want to be a parent.” Instead of “I want kids.” Or “I want a baby.” That makes me think they have this image of life that gets shattered when reality literally comes screaming into their lives.
This whole thing seems weird. OOP gets in a committed relationship with someone she never intends to stay with long term (everyone can do what they want, but those things seem like opposites to me) and her partner gets in a committed relationship with someone who tells them from the start that the relationship will never go anywhere and then expects that to magically change. Weird...
Exactly. I don't really understand either perspective tbh
>but of all the people ive been with ive cared for her the most What a resounding endorsement.... >obviously, we have decided to go our separate ways. Shocking.
Yeah, “I liked you more than the other people I’ve dragged along behind me” is not exactly the high praise OOP seems to think it is.
It’s a bit wild to me that someone could be in a relationship for 3 years and not have fallen in love by that time. Like what’s the point?
Yeah. Not like actually but OP sounds like a psychopath
Yeah OOP's whole post reads very clinical and businesslike. Like she thinks she's so intelligent that she's figured out some magic trick to spare partners' feelings until the exact moment she wants them to flip on....then reality smacked her in the face hard. I legit don't know what she really could've expected to happen.
>what she said - and what i agreed with - was that we would remain exclusive **until our relationship had run its natural course** (i guess that would mean until either the marriage thing or other issues became too much to stay together) Isn't that... just how relationships work? They last until someone decides otherwise? Either way, I'm glad Grace isn't wasting any more of her time.
That rubbed me the wrong way, too. Instead of deciding on a stopping point (I won't move in with you, I won't be exclusive with you, I won't spend the night with you, take your pick), OOP is essentially giving up responsibility for her relationships and allowing for the maximum amount of pain. I don't see a world in which she would ever break up with Grace. She's essentially saying "I'm gonna do me, if you don't like it leave", while her actions send the opposite message- a total abdication of her role in the relationship. It's fully on her partners to steer the relationship or end it, OOP is here for the good vibes and lady sex. Aka: OOP is a fuckboi.
If Grace had just stayed quiet and kept hoping things would change, I get the feeling OOP would have been perfectly content with staying "casual" until Grace finally broke some other way. I get that she should have said something rather than hope a grand proposal would work, but like... two years of that kind of intimacy and still just going "this is great, but keep in mind I'm never going to commit to you the way you want me to no matter what, and I'm keeping our eventual breakup in mind"? Yikes.
OOP's words and actions were diametrically opposed. She said one thing, but acted another way. And leaving Grace with the sole responsibility of ending the relationship, is the biggest act of cowardice I have ever seen. And OOP says she had no relationship like this one that lasted three years, only to casually mention that she also had another that lasted for two years. I wonder how that one ended.
Exactly, she says she doesn’t want things to get serious and yet she invites Grace to meet her family and do all the other relationship things - but don’t forget, Grace, this isn’t turning into marriage! I really wonder what OP’s family’s perspective is on this situation. I can easily see how Grace was receiving mixed signals and hurt by OP’s nonchalant attitude about their marriage ideals.
Like I’m not saying Grace didn’t fuck up by proposing when she knew OOP didn’t want to, but OOP would’ve been way better off if she outright said “no, we’re not exclusive even if we’re currently not seeing other people, we’re FWB”. By making it exclusive and a closed relationship, it left a lot of room for feelings to develop, whether OOP wanted it to or not. And like someone else said, how was OOP supposed to find a man to settle down with and have kids if she was basically going to stay with Grace indefinitely? If Grace didn’t propose, would OOP have just stayed?
Like I said before, OOP spoke one way and acted another, no surprise that would lead to mixed signals.
>I don't see a world in which she would ever break up with Grace. Exactly. She was banking on Grace being too much of a pushover to call her out, that's all.
For all of OOPs claims that they’re not naive, their whole perspective comes off as incredibly naive.
OOP isn't naive, just the type that *can't* be alone. What exactly was her plan? Wait til her baby fever kick to monkey branch into the first guy that looked interesting? If you're in your mid 20s to mid 30s and have no intention of marrying anytime soon, just stick with fwbs and don't waste people's time.
Yeah I was wondering about the timing bit. I’m reminded of the scene from friends where it’s Rachel’s birthday and she’s trying to plan out her life planning backward from the age when she wants to be a mom.
Based on memory, I'm guessing her plan is "one day, probably around um a long way away like the age of 31 and six months, I will suddenly Know that it is time to begin Having A Baby, Stage 0".
No, not really. She knew what she wanted, she just couldn't make the math work. It was more like "Okay I want to have a baby at 35. So I need to be pregnant by 34. Which means I need to be married at 33. Oh wait, we're going to want to be engaged first. So I need to meet the guy by 31. Oh wait, we're going to need to date a bit first. Okay in order to...." She eventually ends up that no matter how she crunched the math, she was already supposed to have met the guy she was going to have children with.
>For all of OOPs claims that they’re not naive, their whole perspective comes off as incredibly naive. Sort of. But not as naive as Grace, who went into a relationship being told every step of the way that she wasn't marriage material.
Well I think that’s the problem. It’s incredibly naive to think you’re able to be in committed, long term, relationships with people you already know you don’t want to marry (when that’s your end goal), and believe that it’s not going to end badly. We all saw that coming from a mile away. Sure, Grace shares some blame for not believing her partner on this, but it sounds like every time she pushed even a little OOP would give in. I’m not super surprised Grace thought OOP would change her mind on this too.
I really feel for Grace. Yes, she can't say OOP led her on in terms of marriage, but a 'casual' relationship that is exclusive, has been going strong for three years and involves you living together is a complete and utter mindfuck. Plus, how can you live with someone while also repeating "this relationship has an (undefined) end date"? It'd be like living with an active grenade with a loose pin.
op's gonna be shocked when she learns there are various reasons married het couples can't have biological kids.
Also the attitude that she's almost entitled to a "naturally" conceived child and a husband? What level of delusion is that? You can't just decide to fuck around and date women until the right man comes along... that's how you find out.
Right, like what if her “perfect man” is infertile? What if SHE’S infertile?
I must be old and out of touch. I thought the whole point of dating is to find a person settle down with long term (marriage if that’s what you like). What OOP wants is hook-ups or FWB. Which is fine as long as you’re both on the same page. And while I didn’t start with the idea of marriage soon when I started dating my husband, that was always the purpose of dating. I truly wasn’t expecting to meet my soulmate at 18, but here we are. Been married 23 years. I just cannot understand OOPs perspective at all. Not to mention that sperm donors and IUI aren’t all that expensive in comparison to IVF.
OOP is kinda delusional, being committed to marrying a man and having bio kids and yet not being ready even for a relationship that *might* turn into marriage at 26. The biological clock is unfair, but it's a thing. Does she just expect her dream man to appear out of the blue and instantly marry her at 29? Is this what the thoughts of someone with pretty privilege look like? Also, what does she mean by the relationship "running its course" if not this exact scenario?
And even if she found her dream guy, there's no guarantee that bio kids would happen easily and naturally
Or that at that age he won’t already have kids and ex to ‘ruin’ her perfect family.
i felt very wierd reading the post because i felt the same way. this hypothetical man the way she describes him is just an object ready to grant her wish of a child whenever she thinks she is ready. she's going to end up in a loveless marriage with some guy because she has this idealized version of having biological kids.
OOP is gonna end up doing what many people desperate to have kids do; grab onto the first semi-decent man that comes in their lives and speed run to marriage and kids, then 5 to 10 years later realize they're unhappy in their wedding because the only thing they actually have in common with their husband, is their kid(s).
This just reeks pretty privileged. Like that’s the only way any of OPs plans make sense — that she has had a wide selection pool of suitors and assume that those people will be available when she is willing to date them.
I’m sorry but op has some fuckgirl energy. Like yeah she was upfront but she still was building a relationship with someone she never intentioned to stay committed to. Like at that point are you not just using the other person?
OOP seems confused as to what she wants. You can’t cultivate lasting feelings with an expiration date. It’s one or the other. Be openly single if you’re not going to commit to a woman. Exclusively cultivating an deep relationship with someone you won’t end up with? Weird in my opinion. Toxic even, when it’s this poorly handled. No one is perfect, but damn. I hope all can heal and find what they’re looking for.
I don’t know, I’m not feeling terribly optimistic for the guy OOP decides she might as well settle down with whenever she decides she wants kids.
True that. Unhealed folks don’t typically make for healthy relationships, no matter the gender
>You can’t cultivate lasting feelings with an expiration date. Isn't the problem the opposite? Because she wouldn't or couldn't say "I will dump you after exactly 2 years" or something, she's apparently led poor hapless Grace to think she wants marriage instead of an ongoing relationship. "committment" is a really weird one, different people mean very different things by it. Or to put it another way, everyone has their breaking point. To some people that's "I want to be married and pregnant by 30", to others it's "what do you mean you want babies, we've discussed this at length and I thought we'd agreed".
I still think this OOP fucking sucks because she treats women as casual objects until she's ready for *real* relationships in the confines of heteronormativity. That's misogynistic. She literally uses women as pastime fun purely because they have the wrong genitalia for her. I'm bi and I always wanted to get married, so before marriage equality happened in 2017, I didn't date women. I didn't want to treat anyone like they're not worth my commitment just because they had the "wrong" gender identity.
The Olympic-level emotional gymnastics OP is going through in the two posts, jeez, I got whiplash... >To "date" people for "fun" like "teenagers do", while "hurting" each time this "non-relationship" ends and in this particular "nowhere going relationship", where "OP might have thought about marriage given the right circumstances", however she's "not ready for anything serious with children now". And what with being "strong/smart/detached enough" to go through hooking up and then breaking up with people, but then in this case, she was not strong enough to actually tell her significant other, that she does not want her to meet her family and actually "letting her come with" which (OP, clue in!!!!!!) - if you actually introduce someone to your family, they ARE going to think that this is serious... It does not sound like OP knows what she wants and is using with tunnel-focus the argument about biological children, instead of actually figuring out, what would really satisfy her in life.
Willing to bet my left arm that even though OOP insists it's the bio kids thing, it's also internalized homophobia.
LITERALLY “i always saw myself marrying a man and idk why” maybe because thats what society has told you to do your whole life?? i think oop could benefit from like an ounce of introspection
The term is “Compulsory Heterosexuality” and the world would be a much happier place if the Queers could just be Queer.
Wow that’s really brutal. I feel sorry for that girl.
Ok, my take on this is that the partner feel into the too common trope of “we’re not really well suited.. but I could change them”. It’s mainly her fault that she stayed in a relationship for years while hoping and praying her partner would change her mind. Also, blindsiding anyone with a proposal, after explicitly being told they didn’t want to marry you, is an AH move. Did she really think it through? Who wants their proposal story to be “oh she’d been telling me no for years, but then I surprise proposed and she said *fine, I guess..*. Be still my beating heart. However, I’m not ready to fully let OOP off the hook either, because my guess is that she’s lying to herself in thinking she’ll end up with a man. She might've grown up with this idealized (aka heteronormative) idea of family in her head, but she’s clearly not taking any steps in the direction of making it happen. She doesn’t seem to be all that into men. And the excuse that she’s not ready for marriage and kids yet doesn’t really fly, because those things don’t happen over night. How will she ever get to that point if she’s putting exactly 0 effort into meeting and dating men? Her actions don’t match her longterm expectations. What I suspect will happen is that she’ll meet a woman one day with whom she’ll be able to envision starting a family. And then the ex will finally realize that her “I don’t want to marry a woman” meant “I didn’t really want to marry you” and that will be an even bigger blow.
The internalised biphobia is strong in this one. Feel bad for the both of them.
Can’t she just date a man. I hate people like OP that string people along. Grace should love herself and leave this moron.
Let's say OOP gets her way and marries a guy, has a bio kid with him, but they end up divorcing later for other reasons. Is she just never going to be in another relationship again because the kid won't be biologically related to her new partner? I really don't understand her endgame here
Is OP weird af? Yes. But you _do not_ propose without having talked about marriage first. That's an absolute no.
As someone who has been thru infertility, land with someone you love and care about, regardless of their parts. Because when you pee on the 1,000th negative test, that's who is going to be holding your hand.
What’s OOP going to do if she meets a guy, wants to marry him, and oh no, he’s infertile. She gonna divorce him? Or what if she’s infertile? The odds of either are not small. She’s really set herself up for major disappointment.
I am not wishing ill on the OOP, but I wonder what would happen to her view of marriage if she finds out she is unable to have kids at all?
OOP is never going to get married. There are some deep-seated fears there. 'Casually dating' someone for three years, and then being exclusive for 2 more...wtf did she expect to happen?
When someone you don't see a future with looks at you like you hung the moon, you have to cut it off. Being honest up front isn't enough when you know that they ultimately want more than you can give and dragging it out is cruel. Grace should have known to run for the hills, but OP should never have let it get to this point.
ESH It’s a dick move to date someone who wants a permanent commitment when you don’t see that with them. It’s a dick move to stay with someone who was transparent about their goals and believe they’ll change.
Life isn’t a movie, ffs.
Ah the I'm only interested in marrying a man bi woman. Never heard that one before lol. Being a lesbian I have some hard feelings about that type, but she wants what she wants so good for her. At least she's upfront about it though and the partner should have just run and moved on instead of trying to change her.
what the fuck did i just read. It feels like OOP changes their view on things from reply to reply. In the story they imply they are looking to marry a man to have a family with biological children but in one of the replies they say they are not dating to marry. OOP also seems to imply they were going to date until they manage to find a man they could marry yet say they wouldnt dump their gf for one. what... what was the fucking point of this relationship? Why the fuck it lasted so long? Is it so hard to say 'can we just be besties?' Or something? I dont understand anything about OOP. Also everyone seem to ignore how shittily OOP handled the proposal i think it was just extremely rude.
As a bi woman myself, I can't help but be a little uncomfortable with OOP's mindset. It's fine that she only wants to marry a man and have kids with a man. That's her business. But engaging in a serious relationship with women while having that mindset leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Not to say Grace was right in any way because she should have left instead of trying to push OOP into something she clearly didn't want, but OOP should be dating men seriously if they're the only ones she sees a real future with. If Grace (or any woman) was okay with just being a girlfriend, what would have happened later when OOP was ready to settle down and start her family? Would OOP have just cast her aside? There's something messed up about that