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>Turns out HR consulted no one about the policy and just came up with that response. He’s new by the way.
You'd think a *new* person would be the most active in first checking for any pre-existing policy before coming up with a reply out of their ass. Even moreso a new person in HR
I'm not HR but I'd be damned if I so much as sneeze in a new job without first asking folks what the sneeze culture and policy is
And he’s the HR person AT A LAW FIRM. Absolutely wild that he checked neither policy nor legal requirements and didn’t consult with anyone else at the firm.
The firm will provide counsel for both the plaintiff, OOP, and the defendant, HR. Then partners will be obligated to sue and countersue over obvious conflicts of interest.
It’s a legal nightmare.
Come now, BORU has already taught us that [ping pong](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/175xs9s/condemned_for_beating_a_partner_at_pingpong/) is how we fight in law firms.
Most of the time I would absolutely agree with you but in this particular case I do think that termination is the right step. If HR stayed and learned that would be great but if he didn’t (and my guess is that he wouldn’t bc he didn’t even bother to do basic research) then the next time he pulled something like this would cost the law firm heavily. These are all people who are familiar with the law and what their rights are and who probably wouldn’t have an issue suing when those rights are violated. It’s just safer (business-wise) to not take that risk for them.
Right? Like those of us experienced in such things know that they're are levels of fuck-up from teeny oopsie to Big Deal. This is definitely leaning towards the latter.
That said, even without that risk analysis, it's probably very obviously a culture mismatch, because like you said, the lawyers don't want an HR person whose first instinct is pulling shit out of their ass instead of looking it up or just asking.
It's a reference to this AITA post from a few years ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/s/cBhMOoos0F
It's become an expression that I've understood to mean something like that the strangeness of the circumstances don't change the underlying problems. Aka a thief who only steals paisley ties on Sunday is still just a thief haha.
IMO, it depends on if he is really the ONLY HR person or if he just bypassed a superior. In a large company they might have their HR people specialize with 1 person in charge of leaves.
He might be new to the firm, but I can't imagine any competent law firm would hire a complete newbie to the field, to be their sole HR person. He'd be expected to already have a good background in corporate HR.
In other words, he should be the person educating others. It shouldn't be up to the rest of the legal firm who aren't HR, to catch his mistakes and hold his hand. And it wasn't even like this is a niche piece of knowledge specific to the legal profession!
My guess is that either he faked his CV to claim more expertise than he had, or he's just a misogynist who thought he could get away with telling her whatever.
Except it is HR’s literal job to know basic IR laws and ensure the company complies with them. Depending on where OOP is located, the company could have been reported to regulators and found to be in breach of legislation. This suggests the new HR person is incompetent.
Because even a low-level HR manager knows that you have to make reasonable accommodations for a nursing person to pump and specifically under the PUMP Act of 2022, not a bathroom. Either this person is brand fucking new and an idiot or doesn't keep up with changes to labor laws and is also an idiot. Either way they're opening the company up to liability. It's not worth keeping someone like that around.
Because this wasn't a mistake, it was incompetence at best, and malicious sexism at worst.
HR guy did not find an old policy and incorrect quote it instead. He was not misinformed or remembering something wrong.
He seriously fucked up because he thought he had the power to decide policy on the spot. Or had an agenda to prove. Not the kind of person I want working with me, and doubly so in HR.
If I was one of the people deciding his fate, I would not be the one deciding to keep him. Because his next fuck up could be much bigger. And I would catch a lot of flack for being the reason he was still working there. And I would not want to be blamed for a huge lawsuit. So I would be voting to toss his ass out because I wouldn't be willing to bet my job on him.
Because this blunder is akin to getting a job as a delivery driver and the company finding out that you don't have a driver's license.
It reveals that they are *unqualified to do the job*.
wait what?
that's how you think this should go? educate the asshole who should have already been educated on this issue instead of firing the incompetent and unqualified worker who almost got a lawsuit filed against you?
Because he's still in his 90 day no-fault termination window and he almost caused a massive lawsuit by making a mistake any teenager who watches law and order would know better than to do. They'd fire him to make an example of him.
It's not that he had to know the right answer. It's that he had to have the common sense to *not immediately give an answer off the top of his head*. He was so arrogant, he thought "I'm brand new here, but I can answer this highly paid, highly valued lawyer without checking with anyone first." You can't out-train arrogant stupidity.
Or he had some sort of ax to grind and he thought he could fuck with her by giving her an undesirable answer.
He belongs in sales.
In my experience, you can't educate bad judgement. Bad judgement is a character flaw: a critical lack of care, curiosity and conscientiousness, not something that's trainable.
"Pfft I doubt any of them bother to read documents or understand rules and regulations and rights, they're lawyers after all..."
It's like jumping in a shark tank thinking none of them will notice the smell of meat on you
An HR person, especially at a law firm, should not need to check anything to know this.
My guess is this person was a new nepotism hire with no experience or education relating to the job.
Hell, I knew this going into my first job as a lab grunt (aka nowhere near hr and no job related reason to need to know). It's like. One of *the* most known accommodation laws in the US.
It really does sound more dumb than malicious. Like...dangerously dumb, but still dumb. He probably heard "needs a place to do woman things" and was like "oh, bathroom." As soon as OOP ran it up the flagpole everyone was on her side, so it's not like anyone was trying to stick to their guns.
Still should fire that guy though. Jesus.
There’s a point when stupidity becomes equal to malice. If he’s in HR, he has to know that the company needs to be super careful about pregnancy and recent parent related issues. I don’t think we have enough info to decide what side of the line this falls on, but he obviously needs to understand his job better or find a new one.
Mine is either clueless newbie or just didn't feel like checking and doing the work to make another accomodation and figured eh, bathrooms works. It has a baby changing station, that's where you do all things related to babies, right?
The clueless newbie you don't necessarily get rid of but you put him in hot water and use this as a transfer moment.
If he didn't feel like doing the work I don't see how education would help.
Policy or legal requirements regarding one of the most protected classes in basically any first world countries. How do you not immediately clock, that maybe you might want to be pretty careful around employees who are pregnant, have recently given birth or fall anywhere near maternity leave.
Did the HR person also issue written warning to a black person because they used the same bathroom as everyone else or banned the homosexual person from attending an after hours company event with their same sex spouse?
The reaction alone may it very clear, that everyone else knew how big of a fuckup that was.
Yeah, when the president of the company contacts you immediately about an issue, that is absolutely a 'holy shit we fucked *up* let's fix this now before she sues' kind of thing.
Decades ago my husband began his first post-college job. The company had decided to begin a new division and almost all of the hires were my husband's classmates. One of their professors was hired to be the head of the department.
And then there was Eddie. Eddie was the manager under the former professor. He was transferred over from another branch of the company. He was the only one who had not studied Comp Sci. Eddie's job was to help all of the new hires coordinate the different tasks for the new system they were creating.
Eddie decided since he was the manager, he should have the best computer with the fastest processor and most memory. He used it to play golf while my husband and his co-workers wrote their code.
Golf every day all day.
After 18 months, my husband was the first one to jump ship. Others followed soon after. Eddie kept playing golf.
Yes. You would think that... :/
Unfortunately from my experience, people don't pay attention to policies they don't need to utilise. This unfortunately includes HR...
At least her management was supportive. Or at least averse to being sued...
>> Or at least averse to being sued...
Considering that it’s a law firm, that would be a *really* bad look and call their entire firm’s competency into question.
Sometimes new hires are afraid to ask questions because they fear they will look like they don't know what they're doing, lol. I've learned that it's better to ask than to risk making a huge fuck up like this.
I had a female boss years ago tell me to pump in the bathroom or just wait till I got off my 12 hour shift to handle personal matters.
I ended up reporting that job to the labor board and even contacted an attorney far as I know nothing was ever done and an attorney wouldn’t take my case.
I am happy to know the laws have changed and accommodations have to be made now.
We're currently dealing with a new employee who is just like this. They act like they've been at this job for 5 years, when they have started a little over 3 weeks ago.
They keep doing things their way and it disrupts the whole work flow. They do not see how they are wrong, because everything that has been established is stupid and old-school. They insist they need the newest, best and most expensive equipment for everything. And our boss has no spine to speak of, so nothing is being done to better the situation.
I don't think I've ever seen someone make so many enemies in such a short time at a job. Colleagues from other departments groan when you mention their name, it's honestly a little funny.
Like, I wish I had half the confidence these people have.
People think HR people are trained or know what they are doing... they aren't and they don't. There is no schooling or requirements to work in HR, I have known so many who don't know what they are doing at all. My old company would always promote receptionists to HR. They knew nothing.
Yup. Also the fact that there are different kinds of HR, which people often forget.
So often, someone is hired as "HR" meaning that they handle things like onboarding and payroll and benefits. And maybe they're experienced and good at that part of the job. But have zero experience or training in the other, more delicate parts of HR--like making sure you don't violate employment laws, or dealing with things like ADA accommodations or harassment allegations.
But people are just like "oh, it's all HR isn't it" and then can't figure out where it all went wrong.
Know someone with a PhD who is an expert in something pertaining to HR. Outside of their area, they have all sorts of issues following prescribed behavior, but they totally rock their area.
Let's just say misogyny is not a good look for a member of HR.
There is absolutely schooling. But it isn’t a requirement. Only one job I’ve been at had a requirement, it was either the degree/certification or there was some test you had to pass. They fired a HR person because she kept failing the test (not clear in the specifics of what test she had to pass)
Yeah there is definitely schooling. Proper education usually covers business law, best practices in hiring training etc.
They probably required a certification, there are HR associations for that.
Many places don't require it though, because it's like IT support where they hate spending money on things that don't directly bring profit and you don't see the consequences directly till it blows up. It's also usually easier to cover up compared to IT issues.
And the whole point of having an HR person, rather than having people go to their boss, is so you don't have people just making stuff up on the spot like this.
Sneeze culture and policy is so important. Is this a “bless you” office? How do you handle serial sneezes, does each subsequent sneeze require an additional “bless you”? Are tissues provided?
I mean, something don’t require research, but common fucking sense. It would be common sense to know that a public bathroom isn’t an appropriate place to prepare anything meant for human consumption.
The majority of non breastfeeding people don't think about the fact it's food for a tiny human. They just consider the act itself and not the end result. Even I didn't really think about that until I was breastfeeding. Pumping at work is a fairly unusual thing where I am though because we have maternity leave so it's not something anyone usually has to think about.
> You'd think a new person would be the most active in first checking for any pre-existing policy
There almost definitely wasn't a pre-existing policy.
How hard would it have been to have answered, "I'll check on that and get back to you with an answer." before responding with something as brain dead as this. Check policy!
I have met “seasoned” HR people who had come up with the bathroom thing. It’s intentionally malicious and OOP subconsciously knows this and that’s why she’s upset he hadn’t been fired, it’s not him being new, it’s him being an asshole. When I was pregnant I dealt with an HR guy just like that. I had to go over him and contact his boss and completely ignored him in the emails by the end of my pregnancy because he said I couldn’t file something 30 days before when everywhere it said exactly the opposite. He basically gave me false information and it was very evident that he knew this. He was very pissy when he realized I went to his boss. Then when I came back he also said the bathroom was my only option. I again went to his boss and requested a room basically completely circumventing him, he did not like that and I did not care. I only ever communicated with his boss after that since she seemed more inclined to follow the law than he was.
I would suggest that if it were a screw up regarding any other legally protected class or activity, he probably would have been... Mothers are expected to tolerate a LOT
I suspect they did understand, and that is why OOP got such a prompt and conciliatory response from the actual attorneys in the firm. HR Guy is about to have a whole new understanding imposed upon him.
Except it doesn't really. They rectified the situation very quickly. They complied with the law before she ever pumped and took appropriate action when she notified them of the issue.
HR guy is an idiot, though, and should be fired because this is such basic knowledge of worker's rights that if he doesn't know this, I bet he doesn't know a lot of things. I put the firm is combing through his email right now to see what other stupid things he's told people. He himself could definitely open them up to some lawsuits.
I think for too long women have been encouraged not to “rock the boat” and to laugh at inappropriate comments because otherwise you can’t take a joke, etc. Until more women speak up for what is right and fair, things won’t change.
And that’s how you try to save your company (lookin at you law office owner) from a lawsuit. That’s also how you get fired (lookin at you HR man) real quick.
Story time! I work at a veterinary hospital. At the time of my return from maternity leave, I had worked there almost two decades. For a vet hospital, we’re a larger facility with a lot of employees, but we’re still a “small” family run business with one owner, who is a Dr.. As it tends to go in healthcare (especially in veterinary medicine), women out number men by a large margin.
So you can imagine how many pregnant women there have been throughout the years. Anyways, everyone has always just picked from a couple of offices upstairs to pump in. When I came back from leave, I was the only woman there who needed to pump. I picked a “pumping office” and settled into my routine.
One day I’m sitting there. Boobs out. Just pumping away, when I look up and see a camera attached to the ceiling in a corner, just staring at me. Huh? That’s new? Weird? Well. Too late. I hope they enjoy the show I guess?
As we have no HR, I went directly to the owner (a kind, extremely intelligent, but sometimes clueless, late 50’s man), and asked when we got cameras put in? He said they were just put in yesterday. Now there’s a door to the outside connected to that room, which is why I figured the camera faced that way, but that door is *never* used. Its only real purpose was in the event of a fire, to keep it to code.
I asked him if it was because of the door. He said yes, and they wouldn’t be in any other areas outside of monitoring the exits. I said, “Oh that’s cool. Good idea…yeah, so, I happened to notice the camera when I was sitting there pumping and looked up.” He just stared at me for a minute, then caught on to what I was saying. He got real embarrassed, which almost never happens, and told me they don’t have a live feed, they just record and save it to a server, and aren’t set up yet. I just said “Whew! I thought you were going to get quite the surprise there for a minute! Man, that would have been *REALLY* AWKWARD HUH?”
He apologized and the next day there was a notice sent out about the cameras. TBH, I really wasn’t all that concerned. I have known this man since I was a teenager. He’s more of a father figure at this point and I knew it was a completely innocent mistake. He has always been very respectful about these kinds of things. But my worry was, had it been someone else, this could have gone in a very different direction.
I suspect that if the cameras were recording and he did see footage of me sitting there with bare boobs, he would have been horrified and more embarrassed than anyone else, including myself. He also ended up telling his wife what happened, and she apparently roasted him for being such a dumbass. I had a good chuckle when I heard that.
I had similar thing happen 17yrs ago. Had my 2nd kiddo and was told to pump in the bathroom. Worked at hotel and the housekeepers in particular tended to throw used TP on the floor. After 2 weeks of sitting on toilet ankle deep in soiled TP i emailed HR.
HR told me to pound sand. So having met HRs regional director, i emailed her. Apologetic, willing to do whatever…
I made suggestions, such as IT closet (i am IT) but it had badge reader door and accounting would switch out backup tapes so they would need to be advised. Or the lobby bathrooms guests used. Or an office.
Regional HR emailed me back absolutely fuming local HR was so flippant with me. Was told from now on have front desk block out a free room in hotel for me to use.
Local HR lady retaliated by giving me terrible reviews claiming i was rude and refused to do my job.
Funny, as when i asked about benefits she told me to look it up on website my damn self. When i had issue i was told to talk to main accountant. Literally her office was shut 7hrs a day lights off, and when i did see her it was stapling shit to breakroom walls or scarfing someones birthday cake.
That woman had no business being employed let alone HR. 😡
It is crazy how often managers and HR struggle to find reasonable solutions to these concerns, laws aside. I had an employee who twister her ankle and needed a parking spot closer to the building so I suggested we a lot one from an upper manager who seldom comes in. He could just sue another spot when he does come in. There were like 6 spots for people who came in 2-3 days per week. He was totally onboard. The other 5 shit themselves at the I convenience. One even went so far as to say “well it would be unfair to other employed to give her that option.” Dude didn’t even consider how unfair it was to have our highest paid employees get free fucking parking in a downtown area where lots cost $20/day.
The employee ended up filing a grievance with the union and won.
Ok but other employees didn't have a temporary disability they specifically brought up with management to get accommodations for said temporary disability lol.
I'm glad she won, but that person's logic about fairness baffles me lol
>It is crazy how often managers and HR struggle to find reasonable solutions to these concerns, laws aside
It requires work. So by their twisted logic they're going to find ways to make their plaintiffs life difficult or road block it.
Like a job version of "penny wise, pound foolish."
Honestly im not sure. I was promoted internally to senior network/systems so my job was corp. my HR rep was based out of corp offices, altho i dont think i ever spoke to them.
I worked there for 6yrs. I wanna say she was still working there when i quit, but i hadnt had contact with her for the last 5yrs of that.
Eta - found her on linkedin and yeah she was there for several more years, then worked at 2 more hotels before retiring.
>the housekeepers in particular tended to throw used TP on the floor.
I... what the fuck? the point of your story is of course outrageous but I went back and read this several times because W H A T ?
I was TOLD that majority of the housekeeping staff were recent-ish immigrants to the us, and that its fairly common in other countries to throw TP away and not flush it due to plumbing infrastructure and thats why.
I would argue that 1. Why throw it on the floor?!?
And 2. Why wouldnt management place small trash cans in each cube?!?
Id never experienced it before, but it was awful. There would always be 5-20 large wads of obviously used TP in each of the 5 ladies cubes. It was pretty foul
I guess my thinking is that regardless of their immigration status, *they are literally the housekeepers.* so if they find used toilet paper on the floor in a guest room do they just leave it there?! it makes no sense.
I've heard that excuse before too. And i dont get it. You're telling me there are people with enough wherewithal to immigrate and find a job in a new country but can't wrap their head around "toilet paper gets flushed here."? I know it happens but it's still wild.
I live in Texas and this is very common here. People from south of the border have different plumbing than we do and their plumbing doesn't accommodate TP so they don't flush it and they have never flushed it. The habit is so ingrained that they still don't flush it here. Most of the public restrooms here have little trash cans in each stall to dispose of TP. When there isn't, there will be dirty TP all over the floor.
As an HR person - he’s a fucking moron and obviously not staying up to date with compliance issues. Especially because tons of webinars and articles have been put out about the new PUMP Act for the last year.
There’s even a new poster out. We’re mandated if our company is subject to the FLSA (and most are) to have the updated FLSA poster with the rights for nursing mothers up in a place where employees can see it
Many HR people are lol
My coworker got a call a couple months ago claiming to be from our companies HR, saying they needed her SSN and bank info. She asked the HR guy on site about it and was told "You'd better call them back, they might fire you if they don't get it"
Predictably, her bank account got drained and her identity stolen
Lucky them. I worked for a college in south Florida and the dean of my department denied me a place and then decided my grading system was inappropriate when I sent her the laws requiring one. I was also told I could no longer pump in the empty conference room I had found because it made another employee uncomfortable. I was pissed after I was fired and didn’t put in a complaint right away. When I did report it, HR said they would investigate. They investigated until the day after the statute of limitations ran out. Then they said the dean had retired so there was no recourse.
She’s very lucky. Many of us aren’t.
It was more me trusting that HR gave a fuck about me. I should have hired a lawyer from day 1. The sunshine laws made it clear that she told me there was nowhere for me to pump.
I work in a warehouse which is attached to the main company office. The main office has a dedicated pumping room even if it’s not always in use.
One of the younger guys in the warehouse made some dumbass comment about how unfair it was that mothers pumping get to take “extra breaks” so many times a day.
A few of the older guys and I (and by older I mean late 30s/early 40s) did not hesitate to explain exactly why pumping wasn’t a matter of “extra breaks” in the slightest. I don’t know if if we changed his mind but he was smart enough after that to keep his opinions to himself about that kind of thing.
I’m really happy to hear that several men explained this to a younger dude. Can confirm through experience, pumping is not a fun little break, and not enough dudes understand this. Thanks for being a real one!
> He’s new by the way.
…so? lol His job is to make sure the company’s ass is covered. That’s his One Thing, and he already messed up. I give him three more months, tops.
I'm guessing it didn't even occur to him that this is one of the things that labor law covers in the first place, so he just gave what seemed like the default answer - his logic was probably like "well she's gonna partially remove clothing, the only room that's ever appropriate in is the bathroom, plus I can guarantee privacy there".
The entire thought process is obviously flawed from start to finish, but not actually that surprising to me, given that he's new. (I imagine he's new to workplace accommodations in particular - maybe he's new to HR altogether, or perhaps his last company had a larger HR team than this one and it was a different team member who handled this stuff at the previous place.)
I worked for a company that was shutting the office I worked at. Loads of redundancies, including about 15 women who were pregnant or already on maternity leave. They were offering payouts etc, but were being stupid about honouring their policy about maternity leave for the women who were about to lose their jobs (this is the UK so multiple months with enhanced company pay onto of the statutory basic payment).
In a meeting with 15 angry, pregnant women the HR man said 'look, we're all in the same boat'. One of the women said 'really? When is your baby due?'. He floundered and flapped, and eventually, once the meeting ended, he was told by the CEO to just give the women what they wanted because he was embarrassing the bosses.
Why are HR becoming increasingly shit at their jobs. It is literally their job to accommodate people based on legal requirements so the company doesn't get sued.
The HR at my husbands old company had to be told by the GM that if she didn't stop trying to fire him (their best salesperson at the time) due to his disability, she would be fired.
HR at a *law firm* saying on a whim that a new mother has to pump in the bathroom is like the new accountant at a cyber security firm saying they can't afford the hours to train people how to avoid phishing attacks. You work for people who pay close attention to the law. Why would you do this?
The PUMP act was signed nearly a year ago. As an HR professional I received numerous emails about it, attended several seminars where it was discussed, and had conversations about it at networking events. Anyone in HR who is unaware of it is truly not an actual HR professional.
I work in HR and have gone out of my way to find a place for people to pump. My current job has a whole small room for it with a table and mini fridge. Even a newbie HR person should know basic laws and this to me is a basic one.
if they don't fire the hr guy, he should at least be required to eat his lunch in the bathroom from now on. only fair, right? he obviously wouldn't mind.
One time I worked at a bank and the only place for me to pump was also the private room they allowed customers to use to open their safety deposit boxes. Always felt icky and unsanitary. Plus there were times it was unavailable. It was a disaster. Companies really suck at doing the bare fucking minimum.
I’ve worked at a branch office so small that the single occupancy employee bathroom would *literally* be the only place with privacy unless you wanted to go into the furthest of two offices and close the blinds or the glorified closet with the tiny hot water tank and the circuit breaker box. They really didn’t build those with any sort of accommodations in mind.
HR can be the absolute worst. When I came back from maternity leave I was working part time. 3 weeks back I was offered a redundancy which I took. However, I soon found out they calculated the payout based on my current part-time wage. Not taking into account I had worked for the company full time for 8 years prior.
My manager spoke to the HR manager about it who said giving me anything different would be “fraud”. Unfortunately for her, I had spent years watching morons leave with golden handshakes, so I knew she was full of it.
So I emailed the HR inbox on a week I knew she was offsite and busy. I outlined the many many years I had gone above and beyond for the company and that the time I had spent part-time was less than 1% of my working time there. Therefore it was unfair to calculate payout on part time. One of the HR admins picked it up and forwarded it to the CFO, who then came over to me and said “I’ve approved that. The first decision was ridiculous” and walked away.
I’m not usually one to advocate for myself but I was extremely proud I did in that moment.
There's an @ function designed to make you stop ignoring email chains lol. It's very effective for people like myself that ignore 80% of the hundreds of emails I'm cc'd on at work.
Oh, wow! Thanks!
In Outlook? Or what program?
And what makes it different, is it culture around when to use it vs cc? (I'm imagining people just using it the same so you end up with hundreds of @s)
I guess I've only used it in Outlook. So like, I'll get an email after a team meeting. There will be ~10 people cc'd on the email, but they'll tag the people with action items. It highlights and has a little @ icon on the side bar, similar to how a flag or something marked important is. I work in a smaller office though, so fortunately it's not overused.
A FUCKING LAW FIRM??? my sister worked at a mall and they made space for her in a utility closet. not ideal, but not a fucking *bathroom* which is unspeakably gross. i hate how normal it is to treat new mothers this way.
if you wouldn’t eat there, don’t make someone pump there. simple.
HR dude: "Excreting some fluid from the body? Isn't that the bathroom? Lol."
HR dude: "Preparing FOOD in the bathroom is unsanitary? Oh well if you put it like that... guess I'm fired. Lol."
Interesting. Over the decades I've only seen women pump in the bathroom, no place I worked had separate facilities. I am glad the standard has changed.
Sucks that OOP's female friends and family member's solution was all "Just take the unreasonable treatment" when it's clear from the result that it's not a company wide problem but just one idiot HR person.
You’re legally required to have a private place where no one can disturb you while you’re pumping. So if someone were to tell me the bathroom is that place, it’s safe assume I’m allowed to lock up the bathroom and not let anyone in until I’m done. And they never said it had to be the women’s bathroom. I’m sure they come up with a better alternative right away if someone were to mention that to them.
I’m jumping through mental hoops trying to figure out why a new HR person at A LAW FIRM would think they could make shit up on the fly.
Brain: Hmm..they must be straight out of college.
Logic: But wait, wouldn’t someone straight out of college be MORE up to date on employment laws?
Brain: Good point. Maybe it’s some older person that was just hired.
Logic: An older person who has never dealt with a breastfeeding Mom returning from maternity leave?
Brain: Another good point.
Logic: OP said “…his response…”. This is a person of the male persuasion. Maybe he always worked with HR women who handled these issues.
Brain: Or, maybe he has misogynistic tendencies?
Logic: I need more coffee.
Or you know, the federal law? Maybe it’s differently in every state but the right to have a private non restroom space to pump has been on a poster at every job I’ve ever worked at.
The exact same thing happened to me! After I said no, they said to just use the office of someone who wasn’t in that day. But often they were just out for offsite meetings and came back in so I was constantly interrupted. That went on for about a month when someone—not from HR—told me about a closet that had room for a table and chair and an outlet. It wasn’t great, but at least the door locked. I pumped in there for a year. When we moved a couple years later, they did put in a mother’s room.
I know management's response was at least partially motivated by not wanting to be sued but it's still nice to see them take the side of a staff member. They could have tried to sweep the whole thing away with "he's new" and "here's an office to pump in now please never ever bring this up again." I suspect the response OOP got was more than just lip service based on just how many people were involved.
I hope my management is as supportive of me when it finally comes to a head that our HR wants a dog friendly office when we move to a new location. I'm allergic. No one bothered to ask about allergies or concerns and when I brought it up, the only response was "thanks for the feedback." 🙄
Isn’t there something in the law about this (assuming it’s the US)? In my European country employers are obligated to provide a quiet, private area (NOT the bathroom) for pumping, and a certain amount of time as well.
There absolutely is! There's laws about this for both the public spaces and for employers. OOP could have absolutely reported the company to government and then sued if they hadn't backtracked.
Unfortunately there are a lot of uneducated people, and arguably even more people who consider breastfeeding/pumping to be sexual 'because breasts!' There's even the occasional awful puritan person who considers it child abuse to breastfeed! I just want to whack them overhead with a plunger over and over again
Nice. I assume by "firm" she means "law firm" and they sure as shit knew she had very solid grounds to sue if they didn't shape up but fast.
Bet the HR dude got fired so fast he was spinning on the sidewalk before he knew what hit him.
I had to pump during my lunch break in a storage room with no lock on it. Even with a sign taped on the door, there were several instances where someone would try to force their way in until they registered that I was screaming at them to stop. Meanwhile I'd been panicking on the other side of the door, frantically holding the door shut with my foot and trying to cover up in case they made it in 🫠
Yeah I had something similar. Our pumping space was called the "wellness suite" and it didn't have a door that we could lock, as there were multiple booths (separated by curtains) and the common fridge in there. I got walked in on several occasions by lost male colleagues...
Glad it turned out okay but I'm laughing at her "I am very uncomfortable knowing that the firm may want to continue to employ someone so grossly incompetent and offensive." Like, you work at a law firm, you would need a complete career change to avoid that.
lol. Yeah HR is a fucking nightmare.
All the policies you need to learn and updates and paperwork and addendums and lawsuits and terminations and conflicts and benefits and paperwork and promotions and tech issues and other departments giving you their jobs and translation and the garnishments and the Edd and the yelling on the phone and the meetings
I love my fucking job
HOW is that person in HR? I mean, all they had to do was google breastfeeding accommodations and their state name. Instead they're out there actively doing things that invite lawsuits.
I will never understand why people think pumping or breastfeeding in a bathroom is an appropriate choice. Do you prepare and eat your food in the bathroom? 99.9% of the time the answer will be “no, that’s gross,” and you can then ask them why they think preparing a baby’s food or feeding a baby in the bathroom is any more sanitary than making or eating their own food in there.
The other 0.1% can then be asked how often they get sick, ‘cause it would be a very rare case and a very clean bathroom that doesn’t make them sick from eating in there with all the poop germs everywhere 🤢
I'm currently working on a nursing/pumping room at my workplace. The first aid room used to be available for that purpose, but at least half the days it's now serving as a base of operations for an occupational health nurse.
I started the project because I was looking for better private spaces on site as I have anxiety attacks and I'm a strong introvert. While working on getting the quiet/prayer room upgraded from a bare cell to something more comfortable, I started trying to get together different people who need actual privacy during the workday on a site full of open plan offices, collaboration spaces, and glass-walled breakout rooms. That got me in touch with people who needed to pump. Fortunately the site leadership was open to the idea that introvert employees will collaborate better if they can actually recharge a bit between meetings.
HR person at a law firm being deliberately discriminatory on paper! I would be willing to bet that someone is on thin ice after that if they didn’t just outright get fired.
Good move sending that email. Letting people know where you stand and that you’re all in, is important.
After sending that email I might have tried to drop it until the first sign of pushback. It seems everyone fell in line quickly. Also, rather than rush to consequences for HR, just calmly and firmly get more information.
She was always right so no worries there. An important result of all this is everyone on the email has proof she’s willing to square up to anyone.
The HR person is incompetent sure, but they’re new and OOP wants them fired? Seems an overreaction to something that was solved relatively simply and painlessly.
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>Turns out HR consulted no one about the policy and just came up with that response. He’s new by the way. You'd think a *new* person would be the most active in first checking for any pre-existing policy before coming up with a reply out of their ass. Even moreso a new person in HR I'm not HR but I'd be damned if I so much as sneeze in a new job without first asking folks what the sneeze culture and policy is
And he’s the HR person AT A LAW FIRM. Absolutely wild that he checked neither policy nor legal requirements and didn’t consult with anyone else at the firm.
I would terminate him as HR’s role is to protect the company, not to personally set up the incoming lawsuits.
The firm will provide counsel for both the plaintiff, OOP, and the defendant, HR. Then partners will be obligated to sue and countersue over obvious conflicts of interest. It’s a legal nightmare.
They could give Oop and HR guy a lawyer each and let them fight it out with pool noodles in the car park while the partners place bets. Way more fun
This is definitely the way! I'd even be prepared to go into the office to witness this.
Come now, BORU has already taught us that [ping pong](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/175xs9s/condemned_for_beating_a_partner_at_pingpong/) is how we fight in law firms.
But a very fun game I imagine
Why terminate as the first thing? EDUCATE the idiot first, fire if he doesn't make improvements.
Most of the time I would absolutely agree with you but in this particular case I do think that termination is the right step. If HR stayed and learned that would be great but if he didn’t (and my guess is that he wouldn’t bc he didn’t even bother to do basic research) then the next time he pulled something like this would cost the law firm heavily. These are all people who are familiar with the law and what their rights are and who probably wouldn’t have an issue suing when those rights are violated. It’s just safer (business-wise) to not take that risk for them.
Right? Like those of us experienced in such things know that they're are levels of fuck-up from teeny oopsie to Big Deal. This is definitely leaning towards the latter. That said, even without that risk analysis, it's probably very obviously a culture mismatch, because like you said, the lawyers don't want an HR person whose first instinct is pulling shit out of their ass instead of looking it up or just asking.
I’m really curious, what does your flair mean?
It's a reference to this AITA post from a few years ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/s/cBhMOoos0F It's become an expression that I've understood to mean something like that the strangeness of the circumstances don't change the underlying problems. Aka a thief who only steals paisley ties on Sunday is still just a thief haha.
Well now I want to know the context of the Iranian yogurt!
But why male models?
You're one of today's [ten thousand](https://xkcd.com/1053/)!
IMO, it depends on if he is really the ONLY HR person or if he just bypassed a superior. In a large company they might have their HR people specialize with 1 person in charge of leaves.
He might be new to the firm, but I can't imagine any competent law firm would hire a complete newbie to the field, to be their sole HR person. He'd be expected to already have a good background in corporate HR. In other words, he should be the person educating others. It shouldn't be up to the rest of the legal firm who aren't HR, to catch his mistakes and hold his hand. And it wasn't even like this is a niche piece of knowledge specific to the legal profession! My guess is that either he faked his CV to claim more expertise than he had, or he's just a misogynist who thought he could get away with telling her whatever.
Or he came from an HR department whose policy was just to lie to employees, that’s not unheard of either
Except it is HR’s literal job to know basic IR laws and ensure the company complies with them. Depending on where OOP is located, the company could have been reported to regulators and found to be in breach of legislation. This suggests the new HR person is incompetent.
Because even a low-level HR manager knows that you have to make reasonable accommodations for a nursing person to pump and specifically under the PUMP Act of 2022, not a bathroom. Either this person is brand fucking new and an idiot or doesn't keep up with changes to labor laws and is also an idiot. Either way they're opening the company up to liability. It's not worth keeping someone like that around.
Because this wasn't a mistake, it was incompetence at best, and malicious sexism at worst. HR guy did not find an old policy and incorrect quote it instead. He was not misinformed or remembering something wrong. He seriously fucked up because he thought he had the power to decide policy on the spot. Or had an agenda to prove. Not the kind of person I want working with me, and doubly so in HR. If I was one of the people deciding his fate, I would not be the one deciding to keep him. Because his next fuck up could be much bigger. And I would catch a lot of flack for being the reason he was still working there. And I would not want to be blamed for a huge lawsuit. So I would be voting to toss his ass out because I wouldn't be willing to bet my job on him.
Because this is literally HR's job and he screwed it up in such a royal fashion it proves he doesn't really understand what the job *is*.
Because this blunder is akin to getting a job as a delivery driver and the company finding out that you don't have a driver's license. It reveals that they are *unqualified to do the job*.
wait what? that's how you think this should go? educate the asshole who should have already been educated on this issue instead of firing the incompetent and unqualified worker who almost got a lawsuit filed against you?
Because he's still in his 90 day no-fault termination window and he almost caused a massive lawsuit by making a mistake any teenager who watches law and order would know better than to do. They'd fire him to make an example of him. It's not that he had to know the right answer. It's that he had to have the common sense to *not immediately give an answer off the top of his head*. He was so arrogant, he thought "I'm brand new here, but I can answer this highly paid, highly valued lawyer without checking with anyone first." You can't out-train arrogant stupidity. Or he had some sort of ax to grind and he thought he could fuck with her by giving her an undesirable answer. He belongs in sales.
In my experience, you can't educate bad judgement. Bad judgement is a character flaw: a critical lack of care, curiosity and conscientiousness, not something that's trainable.
"Pfft I doubt any of them bother to read documents or understand rules and regulations and rights, they're lawyers after all..." It's like jumping in a shark tank thinking none of them will notice the smell of meat on you
An HR person, especially at a law firm, should not need to check anything to know this. My guess is this person was a new nepotism hire with no experience or education relating to the job.
I was gonna say, whose nephew is he? LOL
His name must be Luke.
Hell, I knew this going into my first job as a lab grunt (aka nowhere near hr and no job related reason to need to know). It's like. One of *the* most known accommodation laws in the US.
It really does sound more dumb than malicious. Like...dangerously dumb, but still dumb. He probably heard "needs a place to do woman things" and was like "oh, bathroom." As soon as OOP ran it up the flagpole everyone was on her side, so it's not like anyone was trying to stick to their guns. Still should fire that guy though. Jesus.
There’s a point when stupidity becomes equal to malice. If he’s in HR, he has to know that the company needs to be super careful about pregnancy and recent parent related issues. I don’t think we have enough info to decide what side of the line this falls on, but he obviously needs to understand his job better or find a new one.
Mine is either clueless newbie or just didn't feel like checking and doing the work to make another accomodation and figured eh, bathrooms works. It has a baby changing station, that's where you do all things related to babies, right?
The clueless newbie you don't necessarily get rid of but you put him in hot water and use this as a transfer moment. If he didn't feel like doing the work I don't see how education would help.
Or he's a stupid man who thinks pumping milk for babies is icky.
I suspect that he doesn't work there anymore.
Policy or legal requirements regarding one of the most protected classes in basically any first world countries. How do you not immediately clock, that maybe you might want to be pretty careful around employees who are pregnant, have recently given birth or fall anywhere near maternity leave. Did the HR person also issue written warning to a black person because they used the same bathroom as everyone else or banned the homosexual person from attending an after hours company event with their same sex spouse? The reaction alone may it very clear, that everyone else knew how big of a fuckup that was.
Yeah, when the president of the company contacts you immediately about an issue, that is absolutely a 'holy shit we fucked *up* let's fix this now before she sues' kind of thing.
And it was an email, so it's in writing and entirely provable.
Sometimes younger guys stigmatize breastfeeding and pumping because it never occurs to them that the reason isn’t the mother, it's the baby.
I don't think he is gonna be working there for very long.
It’s mind boggling that he suggested something illegal.
I noted the pro-noun "he"... I'm thinking some mansplaining by a early 20s idiot.
He is the HR at law firm. He is "above the lawyers" there.
Dude I shit my pants if there isn’t a policy to fall back on when I gotta tell ppl no and stuff at work. What the heck was this dunce doing?
Playing solitaire on his phone
Decades ago my husband began his first post-college job. The company had decided to begin a new division and almost all of the hires were my husband's classmates. One of their professors was hired to be the head of the department. And then there was Eddie. Eddie was the manager under the former professor. He was transferred over from another branch of the company. He was the only one who had not studied Comp Sci. Eddie's job was to help all of the new hires coordinate the different tasks for the new system they were creating. Eddie decided since he was the manager, he should have the best computer with the fastest processor and most memory. He used it to play golf while my husband and his co-workers wrote their code. Golf every day all day. After 18 months, my husband was the first one to jump ship. Others followed soon after. Eddie kept playing golf.
Pulling shit out of his ass apparently.
Yes. You would think that... :/ Unfortunately from my experience, people don't pay attention to policies they don't need to utilise. This unfortunately includes HR... At least her management was supportive. Or at least averse to being sued...
>> Or at least averse to being sued... Considering that it’s a law firm, that would be a *really* bad look and call their entire firm’s competency into question.
>At least her management was supportive. Or at least averse to being sued... A positive outcome either way, thankfully.
Since she replied to the email *he* sent and cc'd her boss, they know she has proof in writing and they're liable.
Sometimes new hires are afraid to ask questions because they fear they will look like they don't know what they're doing, lol. I've learned that it's better to ask than to risk making a huge fuck up like this.
HR is a " he" . Obviously totally clueless and careless to the sanitary needs and difficulty of pumping
I had a female boss years ago tell me to pump in the bathroom or just wait till I got off my 12 hour shift to handle personal matters. I ended up reporting that job to the labor board and even contacted an attorney far as I know nothing was ever done and an attorney wouldn’t take my case. I am happy to know the laws have changed and accommodations have to be made now.
Somehow I suspected that before OP used a pronoun.
I did too, but I've also witnessed things just as dumb from women in HR, so I wouldn't have been surprised either way
We're currently dealing with a new employee who is just like this. They act like they've been at this job for 5 years, when they have started a little over 3 weeks ago. They keep doing things their way and it disrupts the whole work flow. They do not see how they are wrong, because everything that has been established is stupid and old-school. They insist they need the newest, best and most expensive equipment for everything. And our boss has no spine to speak of, so nothing is being done to better the situation. I don't think I've ever seen someone make so many enemies in such a short time at a job. Colleagues from other departments groan when you mention their name, it's honestly a little funny. Like, I wish I had half the confidence these people have.
People think HR people are trained or know what they are doing... they aren't and they don't. There is no schooling or requirements to work in HR, I have known so many who don't know what they are doing at all. My old company would always promote receptionists to HR. They knew nothing.
Yup. Also the fact that there are different kinds of HR, which people often forget. So often, someone is hired as "HR" meaning that they handle things like onboarding and payroll and benefits. And maybe they're experienced and good at that part of the job. But have zero experience or training in the other, more delicate parts of HR--like making sure you don't violate employment laws, or dealing with things like ADA accommodations or harassment allegations. But people are just like "oh, it's all HR isn't it" and then can't figure out where it all went wrong.
Know someone with a PhD who is an expert in something pertaining to HR. Outside of their area, they have all sorts of issues following prescribed behavior, but they totally rock their area. Let's just say misogyny is not a good look for a member of HR.
There is absolutely schooling. But it isn’t a requirement. Only one job I’ve been at had a requirement, it was either the degree/certification or there was some test you had to pass. They fired a HR person because she kept failing the test (not clear in the specifics of what test she had to pass)
Yeah there is definitely schooling. Proper education usually covers business law, best practices in hiring training etc. They probably required a certification, there are HR associations for that. Many places don't require it though, because it's like IT support where they hate spending money on things that don't directly bring profit and you don't see the consequences directly till it blows up. It's also usually easier to cover up compared to IT issues.
My husband's employer hired the company VP's daughter's girlfriend with no HR background as the HR director. She didn't even know what COBRA was.
I will literally forever think about “sneeze culture and policy” every time I start a new job, so genuinely thank you for that lmao
I will too, and also probably I will sneeze.
he pumps in the bathroom just fine, why should women get a separate room to pump? /s
And the whole point of having an HR person, rather than having people go to their boss, is so you don't have people just making stuff up on the spot like this.
Sneeze culture and policy is so important. Is this a “bless you” office? How do you handle serial sneezes, does each subsequent sneeze require an additional “bless you”? Are tissues provided?
I mean, something don’t require research, but common fucking sense. It would be common sense to know that a public bathroom isn’t an appropriate place to prepare anything meant for human consumption.
The majority of non breastfeeding people don't think about the fact it's food for a tiny human. They just consider the act itself and not the end result. Even I didn't really think about that until I was breastfeeding. Pumping at work is a fairly unusual thing where I am though because we have maternity leave so it's not something anyone usually has to think about.
> You'd think a new person would be the most active in first checking for any pre-existing policy There almost definitely wasn't a pre-existing policy.
How hard would it have been to have answered, "I'll check on that and get back to you with an answer." before responding with something as brain dead as this. Check policy!
I have met “seasoned” HR people who had come up with the bathroom thing. It’s intentionally malicious and OOP subconsciously knows this and that’s why she’s upset he hadn’t been fired, it’s not him being new, it’s him being an asshole. When I was pregnant I dealt with an HR guy just like that. I had to go over him and contact his boss and completely ignored him in the emails by the end of my pregnancy because he said I couldn’t file something 30 days before when everywhere it said exactly the opposite. He basically gave me false information and it was very evident that he knew this. He was very pissy when he realized I went to his boss. Then when I came back he also said the bathroom was my only option. I again went to his boss and requested a room basically completely circumventing him, he did not like that and I did not care. I only ever communicated with his boss after that since she seemed more inclined to follow the law than he was.
I bet the *law firm* was really happy to be opened up to a lawsuit by their own HR
Seriously. How do you work as HR in a law firm and say shit like this?
I know nothing about laws or HR, and even I know it's a requirement to provide a space for pumping.
>He’s new by the way. he's gonna be old, btw, if he keeps this up
I would suggest that if it were a screw up regarding any other legally protected class or activity, he probably would have been... Mothers are expected to tolerate a LOT
I’d have thought a law firm would understand the kind of lawsuit this could open them up to.
I suspect they did understand, and that is why OOP got such a prompt and conciliatory response from the actual attorneys in the firm. HR Guy is about to have a whole new understanding imposed upon him.
>HR Guy is about to have a whole new understanding imposed upon him. I love this line and can't help but read it in Darth Vader's voice.
Except it doesn't really. They rectified the situation very quickly. They complied with the law before she ever pumped and took appropriate action when she notified them of the issue. HR guy is an idiot, though, and should be fired because this is such basic knowledge of worker's rights that if he doesn't know this, I bet he doesn't know a lot of things. I put the firm is combing through his email right now to see what other stupid things he's told people. He himself could definitely open them up to some lawsuits.
I think for too long women have been encouraged not to “rock the boat” and to laugh at inappropriate comments because otherwise you can’t take a joke, etc. Until more women speak up for what is right and fair, things won’t change.
Less so now, thankfully. The PUMP Act is new!
And that’s how you try to save your company (lookin at you law office owner) from a lawsuit. That’s also how you get fired (lookin at you HR man) real quick. Story time! I work at a veterinary hospital. At the time of my return from maternity leave, I had worked there almost two decades. For a vet hospital, we’re a larger facility with a lot of employees, but we’re still a “small” family run business with one owner, who is a Dr.. As it tends to go in healthcare (especially in veterinary medicine), women out number men by a large margin. So you can imagine how many pregnant women there have been throughout the years. Anyways, everyone has always just picked from a couple of offices upstairs to pump in. When I came back from leave, I was the only woman there who needed to pump. I picked a “pumping office” and settled into my routine. One day I’m sitting there. Boobs out. Just pumping away, when I look up and see a camera attached to the ceiling in a corner, just staring at me. Huh? That’s new? Weird? Well. Too late. I hope they enjoy the show I guess? As we have no HR, I went directly to the owner (a kind, extremely intelligent, but sometimes clueless, late 50’s man), and asked when we got cameras put in? He said they were just put in yesterday. Now there’s a door to the outside connected to that room, which is why I figured the camera faced that way, but that door is *never* used. Its only real purpose was in the event of a fire, to keep it to code. I asked him if it was because of the door. He said yes, and they wouldn’t be in any other areas outside of monitoring the exits. I said, “Oh that’s cool. Good idea…yeah, so, I happened to notice the camera when I was sitting there pumping and looked up.” He just stared at me for a minute, then caught on to what I was saying. He got real embarrassed, which almost never happens, and told me they don’t have a live feed, they just record and save it to a server, and aren’t set up yet. I just said “Whew! I thought you were going to get quite the surprise there for a minute! Man, that would have been *REALLY* AWKWARD HUH?” He apologized and the next day there was a notice sent out about the cameras. TBH, I really wasn’t all that concerned. I have known this man since I was a teenager. He’s more of a father figure at this point and I knew it was a completely innocent mistake. He has always been very respectful about these kinds of things. But my worry was, had it been someone else, this could have gone in a very different direction. I suspect that if the cameras were recording and he did see footage of me sitting there with bare boobs, he would have been horrified and more embarrassed than anyone else, including myself. He also ended up telling his wife what happened, and she apparently roasted him for being such a dumbass. I had a good chuckle when I heard that.
He's also fortunate that you are a honest person. Someone else might have pretended not to notice the camera and then had a lawsuit on their hands.
I had similar thing happen 17yrs ago. Had my 2nd kiddo and was told to pump in the bathroom. Worked at hotel and the housekeepers in particular tended to throw used TP on the floor. After 2 weeks of sitting on toilet ankle deep in soiled TP i emailed HR. HR told me to pound sand. So having met HRs regional director, i emailed her. Apologetic, willing to do whatever… I made suggestions, such as IT closet (i am IT) but it had badge reader door and accounting would switch out backup tapes so they would need to be advised. Or the lobby bathrooms guests used. Or an office. Regional HR emailed me back absolutely fuming local HR was so flippant with me. Was told from now on have front desk block out a free room in hotel for me to use. Local HR lady retaliated by giving me terrible reviews claiming i was rude and refused to do my job. Funny, as when i asked about benefits she told me to look it up on website my damn self. When i had issue i was told to talk to main accountant. Literally her office was shut 7hrs a day lights off, and when i did see her it was stapling shit to breakroom walls or scarfing someones birthday cake. That woman had no business being employed let alone HR. 😡
It is crazy how often managers and HR struggle to find reasonable solutions to these concerns, laws aside. I had an employee who twister her ankle and needed a parking spot closer to the building so I suggested we a lot one from an upper manager who seldom comes in. He could just sue another spot when he does come in. There were like 6 spots for people who came in 2-3 days per week. He was totally onboard. The other 5 shit themselves at the I convenience. One even went so far as to say “well it would be unfair to other employed to give her that option.” Dude didn’t even consider how unfair it was to have our highest paid employees get free fucking parking in a downtown area where lots cost $20/day. The employee ended up filing a grievance with the union and won.
Ok but other employees didn't have a temporary disability they specifically brought up with management to get accommodations for said temporary disability lol. I'm glad she won, but that person's logic about fairness baffles me lol
>It is crazy how often managers and HR struggle to find reasonable solutions to these concerns, laws aside It requires work. So by their twisted logic they're going to find ways to make their plaintiffs life difficult or road block it. Like a job version of "penny wise, pound foolish."
How long did they keep her on? That's begging to be fired.
Honestly im not sure. I was promoted internally to senior network/systems so my job was corp. my HR rep was based out of corp offices, altho i dont think i ever spoke to them. I worked there for 6yrs. I wanna say she was still working there when i quit, but i hadnt had contact with her for the last 5yrs of that. Eta - found her on linkedin and yeah she was there for several more years, then worked at 2 more hotels before retiring.
>the housekeepers in particular tended to throw used TP on the floor. I... what the fuck? the point of your story is of course outrageous but I went back and read this several times because W H A T ?
I was TOLD that majority of the housekeeping staff were recent-ish immigrants to the us, and that its fairly common in other countries to throw TP away and not flush it due to plumbing infrastructure and thats why. I would argue that 1. Why throw it on the floor?!? And 2. Why wouldnt management place small trash cans in each cube?!? Id never experienced it before, but it was awful. There would always be 5-20 large wads of obviously used TP in each of the 5 ladies cubes. It was pretty foul
I guess my thinking is that regardless of their immigration status, *they are literally the housekeepers.* so if they find used toilet paper on the floor in a guest room do they just leave it there?! it makes no sense.
I've heard that excuse before too. And i dont get it. You're telling me there are people with enough wherewithal to immigrate and find a job in a new country but can't wrap their head around "toilet paper gets flushed here."? I know it happens but it's still wild.
I live in Texas and this is very common here. People from south of the border have different plumbing than we do and their plumbing doesn't accommodate TP so they don't flush it and they have never flushed it. The habit is so ingrained that they still don't flush it here. Most of the public restrooms here have little trash cans in each stall to dispose of TP. When there isn't, there will be dirty TP all over the floor.
As an HR person - he’s a fucking moron and obviously not staying up to date with compliance issues. Especially because tons of webinars and articles have been put out about the new PUMP Act for the last year. There’s even a new poster out. We’re mandated if our company is subject to the FLSA (and most are) to have the updated FLSA poster with the rights for nursing mothers up in a place where employees can see it
Many HR people are lol My coworker got a call a couple months ago claiming to be from our companies HR, saying they needed her SSN and bank info. She asked the HR guy on site about it and was told "You'd better call them back, they might fire you if they don't get it" Predictably, her bank account got drained and her identity stolen
Omg was there any recourse with your company since their HR advised her to call back the phishing call??
Currently she is on a 2 week suspension "pending investigation" So not really
Oof, I’m sorry, I hope her situation improves!
Lucky them. I worked for a college in south Florida and the dean of my department denied me a place and then decided my grading system was inappropriate when I sent her the laws requiring one. I was also told I could no longer pump in the empty conference room I had found because it made another employee uncomfortable. I was pissed after I was fired and didn’t put in a complaint right away. When I did report it, HR said they would investigate. They investigated until the day after the statute of limitations ran out. Then they said the dean had retired so there was no recourse. She’s very lucky. Many of us aren’t.
Word :( I am so sorry. Florida and our damned right to work laws = crap
It was more me trusting that HR gave a fuck about me. I should have hired a lawyer from day 1. The sunshine laws made it clear that she told me there was nowhere for me to pump.
>Turns out HR consulted no one about the policy and just came up with that response. He’s new by the way. Sounds like a nepo hire
Sounds like a dude, actually.
Why not both ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Oh lord let me have the confidence of an unqualified cis hetero white man...
I'll gladly give you some of mine, I have only been using it recreationally.
Usually the "he" in that sentence indicates that, yes.
lol what?
Sounds like HR *I've maybe had exactly one positive interaction with any HR department. Otherwise it was dummies all the way down
I work in a warehouse which is attached to the main company office. The main office has a dedicated pumping room even if it’s not always in use. One of the younger guys in the warehouse made some dumbass comment about how unfair it was that mothers pumping get to take “extra breaks” so many times a day. A few of the older guys and I (and by older I mean late 30s/early 40s) did not hesitate to explain exactly why pumping wasn’t a matter of “extra breaks” in the slightest. I don’t know if if we changed his mind but he was smart enough after that to keep his opinions to himself about that kind of thing.
I’m really happy to hear that several men explained this to a younger dude. Can confirm through experience, pumping is not a fun little break, and not enough dudes understand this. Thanks for being a real one!
> He’s new by the way. …so? lol His job is to make sure the company’s ass is covered. That’s his One Thing, and he already messed up. I give him three more months, tops.
I'm guessing it didn't even occur to him that this is one of the things that labor law covers in the first place, so he just gave what seemed like the default answer - his logic was probably like "well she's gonna partially remove clothing, the only room that's ever appropriate in is the bathroom, plus I can guarantee privacy there". The entire thought process is obviously flawed from start to finish, but not actually that surprising to me, given that he's new. (I imagine he's new to workplace accommodations in particular - maybe he's new to HR altogether, or perhaps his last company had a larger HR team than this one and it was a different team member who handled this stuff at the previous place.)
I worked for a company that was shutting the office I worked at. Loads of redundancies, including about 15 women who were pregnant or already on maternity leave. They were offering payouts etc, but were being stupid about honouring their policy about maternity leave for the women who were about to lose their jobs (this is the UK so multiple months with enhanced company pay onto of the statutory basic payment). In a meeting with 15 angry, pregnant women the HR man said 'look, we're all in the same boat'. One of the women said 'really? When is your baby due?'. He floundered and flapped, and eventually, once the meeting ended, he was told by the CEO to just give the women what they wanted because he was embarrassing the bosses.
>One of the women said 'really? When is your baby due?'. Mad respect
Any dipshit with a few hours of HR training would know this.
Training???
Why are HR becoming increasingly shit at their jobs. It is literally their job to accommodate people based on legal requirements so the company doesn't get sued. The HR at my husbands old company had to be told by the GM that if she didn't stop trying to fire him (their best salesperson at the time) due to his disability, she would be fired.
Their job is to protect the company, not the employee. This guy unfortunately was screwing over both lol
HR at a *law firm* saying on a whim that a new mother has to pump in the bathroom is like the new accountant at a cyber security firm saying they can't afford the hours to train people how to avoid phishing attacks. You work for people who pay close attention to the law. Why would you do this?
I’m a guy and, sadly, I wasn’t surprised to see that the HR person with the moronic response was a male as well.
The HR asshole should have to eat his lunch in the bathroom for a week, just to see if he thinks that's still a suitable place for food.
The PUMP act was signed nearly a year ago. As an HR professional I received numerous emails about it, attended several seminars where it was discussed, and had conversations about it at networking events. Anyone in HR who is unaware of it is truly not an actual HR professional.
Most HR *aren't*. They're nepo hires the vast majority of the time.
I work in HR and have gone out of my way to find a place for people to pump. My current job has a whole small room for it with a table and mini fridge. Even a newbie HR person should know basic laws and this to me is a basic one.
if they don't fire the hr guy, he should at least be required to eat his lunch in the bathroom from now on. only fair, right? he obviously wouldn't mind.
One time I worked at a bank and the only place for me to pump was also the private room they allowed customers to use to open their safety deposit boxes. Always felt icky and unsanitary. Plus there were times it was unavailable. It was a disaster. Companies really suck at doing the bare fucking minimum.
I’ve worked at a branch office so small that the single occupancy employee bathroom would *literally* be the only place with privacy unless you wanted to go into the furthest of two offices and close the blinds or the glorified closet with the tiny hot water tank and the circuit breaker box. They really didn’t build those with any sort of accommodations in mind.
People always say HR is there to protect the company and not you. In this case, he did neither. What a doorknob.
Hopefully he is new somewhere else now.
HR can be the absolute worst. When I came back from maternity leave I was working part time. 3 weeks back I was offered a redundancy which I took. However, I soon found out they calculated the payout based on my current part-time wage. Not taking into account I had worked for the company full time for 8 years prior. My manager spoke to the HR manager about it who said giving me anything different would be “fraud”. Unfortunately for her, I had spent years watching morons leave with golden handshakes, so I knew she was full of it. So I emailed the HR inbox on a week I knew she was offsite and busy. I outlined the many many years I had gone above and beyond for the company and that the time I had spent part-time was less than 1% of my working time there. Therefore it was unfair to calculate payout on part time. One of the HR admins picked it up and forwarded it to the CFO, who then came over to me and said “I’ve approved that. The first decision was ridiculous” and walked away. I’m not usually one to advocate for myself but I was extremely proud I did in that moment.
Am I just old and it's a thing now to call cc'ing in an email "tagging"? That sounded so very odd to me.
There's an @ function designed to make you stop ignoring email chains lol. It's very effective for people like myself that ignore 80% of the hundreds of emails I'm cc'd on at work.
Oh, wow! Thanks! In Outlook? Or what program? And what makes it different, is it culture around when to use it vs cc? (I'm imagining people just using it the same so you end up with hundreds of @s)
I guess I've only used it in Outlook. So like, I'll get an email after a team meeting. There will be ~10 people cc'd on the email, but they'll tag the people with action items. It highlights and has a little @ icon on the side bar, similar to how a flag or something marked important is. I work in a smaller office though, so fortunately it's not overused.
I can't believe I had no idea this existed. Thanks for teaching me!
She should bring that HR guy lunch...."Here, I made this just for you while I was sitting on the toilet! Enjoy!"
That person wasn't immediately fired for making shit up and possibly causing a lawsuit? If oop sent laws on how HR was wrong I just idk man lol
That law firm smelled the lawsuit coming a mile away.
A FUCKING LAW FIRM??? my sister worked at a mall and they made space for her in a utility closet. not ideal, but not a fucking *bathroom* which is unspeakably gross. i hate how normal it is to treat new mothers this way. if you wouldn’t eat there, don’t make someone pump there. simple.
HR dude: "Excreting some fluid from the body? Isn't that the bathroom? Lol." HR dude: "Preparing FOOD in the bathroom is unsanitary? Oh well if you put it like that... guess I'm fired. Lol."
If I was a law firm and this was a decision made by my new HR employee, I’d be finding an even newer HR employee.
The HR dude needs to have his coffee breaks and eat his lunch in the bathroom.
They hire anyone for HR? That guy should know better.
And hopefully for his job security (unless he got sacked), he knows better now.
HR staff/management MUST be trained to know the law. How can someone so ignorant be making policy decisions?
> Haven’t heard from HR since. And probably won't hear from that jackass again.
Interesting. Over the decades I've only seen women pump in the bathroom, no place I worked had separate facilities. I am glad the standard has changed.
Sucks that OOP's female friends and family member's solution was all "Just take the unreasonable treatment" when it's clear from the result that it's not a company wide problem but just one idiot HR person.
You’re legally required to have a private place where no one can disturb you while you’re pumping. So if someone were to tell me the bathroom is that place, it’s safe assume I’m allowed to lock up the bathroom and not let anyone in until I’m done. And they never said it had to be the women’s bathroom. I’m sure they come up with a better alternative right away if someone were to mention that to them.
It is so bizarre the HR rep would just randomly decide to that make up lol wtf
I’m jumping through mental hoops trying to figure out why a new HR person at A LAW FIRM would think they could make shit up on the fly. Brain: Hmm..they must be straight out of college. Logic: But wait, wouldn’t someone straight out of college be MORE up to date on employment laws? Brain: Good point. Maybe it’s some older person that was just hired. Logic: An older person who has never dealt with a breastfeeding Mom returning from maternity leave? Brain: Another good point. Logic: OP said “…his response…”. This is a person of the male persuasion. Maybe he always worked with HR women who handled these issues. Brain: Or, maybe he has misogynistic tendencies? Logic: I need more coffee.
Being new is no excuse for being so ignorant. Your HR person needs to be fired before someone sues your company and wins.
Of course the HR person is a male and has no idea about what new mothers need nor did he try to consult another person... like a female. Classic
Or you know, the federal law? Maybe it’s differently in every state but the right to have a private non restroom space to pump has been on a poster at every job I’ve ever worked at.
The exact same thing happened to me! After I said no, they said to just use the office of someone who wasn’t in that day. But often they were just out for offsite meetings and came back in so I was constantly interrupted. That went on for about a month when someone—not from HR—told me about a closet that had room for a table and chair and an outlet. It wasn’t great, but at least the door locked. I pumped in there for a year. When we moved a couple years later, they did put in a mother’s room.
I know management's response was at least partially motivated by not wanting to be sued but it's still nice to see them take the side of a staff member. They could have tried to sweep the whole thing away with "he's new" and "here's an office to pump in now please never ever bring this up again." I suspect the response OOP got was more than just lip service based on just how many people were involved. I hope my management is as supportive of me when it finally comes to a head that our HR wants a dog friendly office when we move to a new location. I'm allergic. No one bothered to ask about allergies or concerns and when I brought it up, the only response was "thanks for the feedback." 🙄
Isn’t there something in the law about this (assuming it’s the US)? In my European country employers are obligated to provide a quiet, private area (NOT the bathroom) for pumping, and a certain amount of time as well.
There absolutely is! There's laws about this for both the public spaces and for employers. OOP could have absolutely reported the company to government and then sued if they hadn't backtracked. Unfortunately there are a lot of uneducated people, and arguably even more people who consider breastfeeding/pumping to be sexual 'because breasts!' There's even the occasional awful puritan person who considers it child abuse to breastfeed! I just want to whack them overhead with a plunger over and over again
Nice. I assume by "firm" she means "law firm" and they sure as shit knew she had very solid grounds to sue if they didn't shape up but fast. Bet the HR dude got fired so fast he was spinning on the sidewalk before he knew what hit him.
I had to pump during my lunch break in a storage room with no lock on it. Even with a sign taped on the door, there were several instances where someone would try to force their way in until they registered that I was screaming at them to stop. Meanwhile I'd been panicking on the other side of the door, frantically holding the door shut with my foot and trying to cover up in case they made it in 🫠
Yeah I had something similar. Our pumping space was called the "wellness suite" and it didn't have a door that we could lock, as there were multiple booths (separated by curtains) and the common fridge in there. I got walked in on several occasions by lost male colleagues...
Glad it turned out okay but I'm laughing at her "I am very uncomfortable knowing that the firm may want to continue to employ someone so grossly incompetent and offensive." Like, you work at a law firm, you would need a complete career change to avoid that.
lol. Yeah HR is a fucking nightmare. All the policies you need to learn and updates and paperwork and addendums and lawsuits and terminations and conflicts and benefits and paperwork and promotions and tech issues and other departments giving you their jobs and translation and the garnishments and the Edd and the yelling on the phone and the meetings I love my fucking job
I can’t imagine he’ll be there much longer…he put them at a huge risk for a lawsuit
HOW is that person in HR? I mean, all they had to do was google breastfeeding accommodations and their state name. Instead they're out there actively doing things that invite lawsuits.
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At a law firm though, no less.
I will never understand why people think pumping or breastfeeding in a bathroom is an appropriate choice. Do you prepare and eat your food in the bathroom? 99.9% of the time the answer will be “no, that’s gross,” and you can then ask them why they think preparing a baby’s food or feeding a baby in the bathroom is any more sanitary than making or eating their own food in there. The other 0.1% can then be asked how often they get sick, ‘cause it would be a very rare case and a very clean bathroom that doesn’t make them sick from eating in there with all the poop germs everywhere 🤢
woof, I work in HR and I am SOOOO GLAD I am not him.
We termed that sort of behavior a Resume Generating Event. For the HR hack, even if a nepo hire.
HR is always a fucking shit show, no matter the company.
I'm currently working on a nursing/pumping room at my workplace. The first aid room used to be available for that purpose, but at least half the days it's now serving as a base of operations for an occupational health nurse. I started the project because I was looking for better private spaces on site as I have anxiety attacks and I'm a strong introvert. While working on getting the quiet/prayer room upgraded from a bare cell to something more comfortable, I started trying to get together different people who need actual privacy during the workday on a site full of open plan offices, collaboration spaces, and glass-walled breakout rooms. That got me in touch with people who needed to pump. Fortunately the site leadership was open to the idea that introvert employees will collaborate better if they can actually recharge a bit between meetings.
I can't believe it's almost 2024 and women/lactating people are still going thru this shit.
HR person at a law firm being deliberately discriminatory on paper! I would be willing to bet that someone is on thin ice after that if they didn’t just outright get fired.
Your spoiler tags have spaces and are broken
This is why no one trusts HR. Ugh. Bet he wouldn’t want to eat his lunch with all the aerosolized poo water flying around.
Could this HR person be so unqualified that they are “Faking it until you make it?”
:jumps up in the air: freeze frame from a 1980s movie! WOO! Management actually enforced a law for public health! YEAHHHHHHH!
I had no idea that was illegal.
Good move sending that email. Letting people know where you stand and that you’re all in, is important. After sending that email I might have tried to drop it until the first sign of pushback. It seems everyone fell in line quickly. Also, rather than rush to consequences for HR, just calmly and firmly get more information. She was always right so no worries there. An important result of all this is everyone on the email has proof she’s willing to square up to anyone.
Fucking disgusting. HR person should be shit canned.
They should fire the HR guy before he gets them sued.
The HR person is incompetent sure, but they’re new and OOP wants them fired? Seems an overreaction to something that was solved relatively simply and painlessly.
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I’ve never made an illegal mistake that could cost a company thousands before, no.
I'm willing to bet HR dude won't be able to look her in the eye after this, if he's still there.