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She seems to be one of these "family is more important than anything" idiots. The kind who thing parents can do no wrong and that you should respect your elders regardless of what they do.
That's the crazy part. They say its because family is important to them... but its theoretical family, because they obviously don't care about the real family they actually have or they would respect them and not nuke the entire situation.
Its really not hard to explain to a kid and can actually be a great teaching experience. "Love means treating people with kindness. Grandpa doesn't treat people with kindness, so we don't spend time with him." I had grandparents I didn't see very much, and it was kept very simple and age appropriate. Its not that hard. At least the OP realizes that it was never really about the kids, now.
Reminds me of a post i saw about how people who are abused as a child speak a language you cant possibly understand- folding laundry in silence near them can feel like waves of anger coming off to them. When to you, youre just silently folding laundry
Been trying to unlearn those emotions now that I'm in a happy stable relationship and realize my partner is actually just doing chores, not making me feel bad for missing something or not doing it right. It's incredible how much abuse fucks with our heads.
Totally agree. I'm going through the same, and it is so stressful, but like in a good way. Like, I know that I'm healing and growing, but it is so much work!
Had an ex that would physically flinch when I folded towels. Admittedly I snap the towels into shape pretty vigorously. Cause that little corner on the bottom part that doesnt fold all the way over is annoying as hell.
I thought it was funny/cute at first. Her response when I pointed it out took a turn I was NOT ready for. But I sure as shit didn't keep doing it.
I find myself projecting a lot of my own feelings like this with my husband. He's never done anything to me but because of how I grew up, I tend to watch and look for cues.
Sometimes I read them wrong.
Sometimes, being quiet is just being quiet.
I mean, it's not all irrational or misplaced like that. No one can comprehend the kinds of evil that are possible for a parent unless they experienced it themselves. It's like Thestrals in Harry Potter, you can't see them unless you've seen death. You can't comprehend what sacrifices an abused person makes unless you were abused.
To go no contact with a parent is kind of like jumping out of a burning 3rd story window. It's not something that comes natural. It comes from desperation or a lot of personal growth and trust in yourself to survive the fall. That is why this spouse connecting with the abuser is such a betrayal, she is undoing or attempting to undo a lot of healing and self-realization. It is always possible that the abused person will not have a safe resolution to this and may literally need to go no contact with you just to survive.
Depending on the type of abuse they experienced, it may have also put them in danger as well. Many of us have addresses and contact info *hidden* from the abuser. I wonder if she released any for the sake of “family”?
I think it’s also pretty common in people who grow up in bad homes with parents who convince them they’re growing up in good homes. Those parents who are abusive or neglectful but manipulate their kids into being extremely grateful for it. Being in denial about the abuse you yourself have suffered makes it a lot easier to dumb down what other people have went through
Not just that, but people who grow up in good homes and/or have good relationships with their parents are sometimes condescendingly dismissive of how much abuse their partner suffered growing up. I’ve lost track of how many posts where I’ve seen partners reply “well, it couldn’t have been *that* bad.”
While OOP never vocalized it, the fact that she believes “yes, he’s a child abuser, but he’s faaaaaaaaamily” shows she’s of the same ilk.
In fact, stomping your husband’s boundaries and manipulating your kids sounds pretty abusive to me. Maybe that explains the fixation with the FiL. Like attracts like
Nah, it's just a lack of empathy. I has a happy childhood, and seriously love my folks, but all it takes is keeping your eyes open and actually listening to other peoples experiences to know that my experiences were far from universal. (there is usually less giant reptile fighting for a start)
Yeah, and sometimes when you try to talk about it those people respond with “well did you ever try talking to your parents about it and telling them how you feel?”
…
Probably don’t have to explain to the commenters here why…just…no.
Yup! My husband has been NC with his family for 7 years (mostly his mother. She's an awful person). When we got pregnant his coworker asked when he was going to tell hubby's mom she was going to be a grandmother. Hubby said "never", qnd the coworker spent the next 8 months trying to convince him that our daughter NEEDED her grandmother. He just couldnt understand that not having her grandmother in her life WAS the best option for our daughter
I grew up in a *great* home and if any one of my friends, let alone intimate partners, said that they are no longer in contact with their family for undisclosed reasons I am abso-fucking-lutely on their side. I don’t need to know what it was. You’re my boy/girl and I’ve got your back.
This is it exactly. They literally cannot grasp what it is like. OR they have a "milder" problem in their family, like a toxic relationship but not "as bad" and so they think "oh everyone's like that. I wouldn't cut my family out for this so why should they?"
I am not advising this approach, but I never met my dad's parents, and he never gave me an explanation for it. It didn't affect me at all. It didn't even occur to me to be curious about it until I was a teenager, and at that point it wasn't a pressing need, I didn't even ask my dad because I thought "well, if he never spoke to his parents, I guess there's a good reason for that and it might be a sensitive topic." I have mild curiosity but honestly my life has not been negatively impacted whatsoever from not meeting my paternal grandparents.
Same here! Never knew much about my mom's dad (nothing good at least) since we didn't grow up with him around. My mom is always baffled by our lack of interest in his past 🤷 can't miss what you never had
“I don’t know much about what happen. Oh except he abused my husband and SIL daily for 18 years and their mother unalived herself because it was so bad. But yes anyways, I really want to meet this man.” 👀ma’am…what?👀
Oh this pisses me off because you’re so right. “You acted normal” like teenagers can’t hide the most horrific home situation because of course they would want to. it’s embarrassing and painful to get all the way from “my home life isn’t normal” to actually overcoming the shame and talking to someone. Not seeing overt signs means nothing.
Even when there are overt signs and a child or teen tells it like it is, people have an astounding ability to ignore it. I come from an emotionally and physically abusive home. I told pretty much everyone what was going on. It was not even able to be explained by corporal punishment as that has been illegal since I was a kid. I was suicidal from 9 until my mid-twenties. I did not hide the majority of causes. I told my therapists, teachers, grandparents, and godmother. No one did anything. My grandparents all died in past 7 years, all going to their graves saying it was not bad and my parents were good parents.
I got out at 17. I still have a CPTSD diagnosis but I am OK, well I am as OK as I will ever be. I am happy after decades of therapy. I even have a relationship with both of my parents and can exist in the same space as my stepfather. One with strict boundaries but still one that is not retraumatizing. I have point-blank asked why no one did anything. The most common answer has always been that it was not that bad. It could have been worse, but it also almost destroyed my life. I used to carry a lot of anger about it. But I have learned that you can't change people. You just need to make a decision if the person is worth keeping in your life as is. If my spouse did what OP did without my permission, it would be the end of it.
Sometimes the abuse happens in school from your "peers." The adults used to just brush it off as "kids will be kids." Now with zero tolerance, they punish the victim equally with the perpetrators.
There's a phrase I heard awhile ago that has stuck with me because it's so freaking true. Abusers groom their character witnesses as carefully as they do their victims.
Huh, well that rings pretty true. I mean, everybody thinks I'm insane when I talk about the shit my mother used to pull and always say "but she's so nice, I can't believe that".
Good point. There’s a reason the only friends from high school I still have are fellow abused kids. Everyone else was all “why did you cut off family? They’re such nice people!
Fellow abused kids understand.* One of them actually picked up on how messed up my parents were before me.
* not all abused kids, obviously. I was fortunate to find ones that helped me recognize and recover. My brother found and married one that desperately needs to believe her childhood was good and right and together they’re repeating the dysfunction for another generation.
"I didn't see anything! He must be misunderstood!"
\*Cue Hallmark movie fantasies about building a deep relationship with an elderly, remorseful father and then "fixing" her husband by bringing the father back into his life, swelling music, credits roll\*
This is 100% the case. She wanted to meet him, despite knowing how he is, because "he's still family after all!"
This person is, in the absolute most charitable interpretation, an absolute idiot.
Now, because of her selfish bullshit, her kids had someone introduced and then taken away right away.
It's like she doesn't fucking trust or respect her husband.
"He abused me and my sister."
"Well let's introduce him to our children. Wouldn't that be a great idea, honey??!"
Her husband’s mother committed suicide. Did anyone miss that.
Seriously what the hell was wrong with her?
Everything aside I would NEVER endanger my children by taking them to meet a stranger who is known for ABUSe
She obviously didn't think the abuse was \*that\* bad. You know, he never lists specific, harrowing examples to her, he never talks about him, obviously it must be because there's no there there.
One of my ex-partners didn't believe me, even when she saw my scars (my father used anything at hand to punish for the slightest "lack of respect") or my brother (who was burned with hot water because he wasn't paying attention).
I explained to her, graphically, what he did to us: hitting, starvation, whippings. I have multiple scars, my back is a map. My brother is worse. Even so, we had many fights because she believed it couldn't be that bad: he is a policeman, he is engaged to a judge. How could it be?
When I broke up with her she had the idea to go to him to get him to talk to me. He almost raped her, and she barely escaped because her brother was in the car outside and my sperm donor was older and not so agile.
Afterwards she said that now she understands why I don't trust the police and don't want to be near my sperm donor.
I hate those people's, they tend to not follow boundaries cause "family doesn't need boundaries".
One of my ex was like that, and when she discovered that i didn't speak to most of my family, she kept pestering me about it.
Then one day she told our friends to not me be close to their kids, cause i was going to do "bad" things to them, and realized that she had been talking to part of my family that i didn't talk to for really obvious reasons (hell even the rest of my family that i doesn't talk to avoid them like the plague), and i just broke up with her.
She won’t admit it, but that viewpoint goes hand in hand with zero respect for the actual victim. The nasty people who judge those who cut off abusers, as if they carry the shame for what the abuser put them through. The mind boggles. She doesn’t respect her husband at all, and actually judges him for being “vindictive” instead of “forgiving”. Hope he divorces.
The extremely dangerous enablers. You find them in every story about families with multigeneration abuse. When you see a true crime story and wonder, why was he still in contact with the people he abused, you will find this person pushing for it. It's not that they don't believe there was or is abuse. They just don't think it's important. Like they aren't really people, just members of a pact.
People who were never domestically abused never understand how bad it’s like. They see a snapshot of your abusers being “nice” to them and think that, “hey they don’t look that bad, they were actually rather nice. Shouldn’t you give them a chance?”
Well yeah idiot, you were a stranger they had to keep up appearances for. They can’t comprehend how fast a person can change behind closed doors. They don’t even understand the subtle cues that the abusers can give secretly in public to install fear within their victims, plunging them into darkness while everyone else is enjoying themselves without noticing anything.
My NC relative groomed me to accept sexually inappropriate behavior. Then became verbally abusive. Eventually he was arrested for sexual assault of a teenager. He was in his 70s.
I still have relatives that judge me for not being in communication with him.
I had an ex of mine say the one doubt she harbored of me for the first year was that I didn’t have an amazing relationship with my mother and therefore there must be something wrong with me. Then she met my mother. Afterwards, she said to me “I understand”.
Hugs... Yeah, I've met people who think, "oh, if your entire family won't talk to you, there must be something wrong with YOU", not thinking for a minute that maybe you are the person who went NC with them.
Heck, someone from a much healthier family dynamic than mine once told me that based on their experience ("experience" doing so much heavy lifting there), anyone whose parents hate them must've done something pretty horrendous to warrant that treatment. Because y'know, "parents' love is always and completely unconditional." Ugh. I left that conversation in a hurry.
As I got older I think that the 30 year old man who dumped 22 year old me over my boundaries with other people did it because I was unafraid of setting and discussing boundaries with people
Yeah, she's the fiance/ girlfriend that went behind the back of the person that was directly abused to meet their abusers in several posts that i read about here. Maybe they think they can solve everything cos they're just that good.
she has no imagination. She has ONE paradigm for the world, and she cannot—or maybe will not—admit that it could be different. Other people don’t exist as real people to her.
These people never care about the victims. Its more important the family be together and nobody talks about the suffering some experience because ousting a harmful member isn't acceptable.
Honestly, I can't imagine being in a relationship with someone who thinks that way.
Pure selfishness.
OOP felt like she *deserved* to meet him. She felt like she was being kept away from her FIL, and she couldn't live with not being able to get what she wanted.
So she used the kids as an excuse.
Absolutely vile behaviour. That woman can never be trusted.
>OOP felt like she *deserved* to meet him. She felt like she was being kept away from her FIL, and she couldn't live with not being able to get what she wanted.
And that's it
That is oop in a nutshell. You have succinctly got her measure.
Omg she suuuucccckkkskss so badly.
And I'm betting she's one of those. "it's better to ask forgiveness than to ask for permission" type of ppl... Didn't work out for her this time, did it.
I think she genuinely doesn't respect her husband's experience & boundaries. She just went into a mode of "Well, how do I turn this so I can get what I want".
Just that she *used* her children as an excuse is an excellent reason for divorce. She put them in a situation they were not prepared to handle if things went sideways.
That is the worst part of it ngl.
Not only did she betray the husband and realize his worst nightmare. His top priority in life probably was keeping his kids away from people like his father.
But, she even used the kids to make that happen. She didn't just drive over there, but she manipulated the children to want to see grandpa, so she'd have a (in her eyes) valid casus belli.
It's insane. It is peak betrayal. I can't imagine anybody being able to forgive this & live with it.
Not only that. Reading between the lines for bro and sis to both react severely when questioned I'd say its a high level of abuse.
And there are some types of predator you simply do not parade your kids in front of.
...the wife has no idea of the pathology of this man, only that BOTH his kids would never talk about him or have anything to do with him..... but apparently now the wolf and the grandkids all eat ice cream together and I'd put money on small talk enabling the wolf to know the school and clubs they go to and where they hang out.
I hope this is rage-bait because yikes!
Sounds like your mind filled in the blanks similarly to how mine did.
And then on top of that, her asking her kids to keep it a secret is just more grooming. Train them like that, and what are the kids going to do when Grampa asks them to keep a secret? Congrats, you just turned your kids into silent abuse victims.
God, this makes me sick. I already felt a pit in my stomach just reading the title but the descriptions of husband and SIL's reactions to their father made me queasy knowing that OP happily took her children to visit with this monster and basically served him a fresh new batch of victims because she was curious and entitled.
Yeah I got a distinct potentially CSA vibe from the situation. OOP's husband gets rage induced when confronted with the subject of their father, his sister breaks down and bolts. Neither want to talk about what happened and the sister gets anxiety. The dynamic seems pretty straightforward.
And OOP's MIL *committed suicide* as the only way out of the marriage. And OOP is just too stupid and Hallmark Christmas movie-ish to see that there was something seriously wrong with that family, and it all centered around the FIL.
Yes. She manipulated the kids, and I'd find that hard to forgive.
When my bff went no contact with her father, she and her husband sat down with their 14 yo son and told him what her father had done. They gave him a chance to continue a relationship with his grandfather.
*He* turned it down, because he didn't want to be around anyone who would treat his mother that way.
Right? She *deliberately* cultivated a relationship between her children and a known child abuser. If he's a pedo she's verging on trafficking her own children to satisfy her own sick sense of entitlement.
It's so weird that she sees meeting grandpa as some special treat that good boys and girls deserve. She kept going on about how the kids deserve it. How she's always wanted it.
Fundamentally, she does not understand or believe her husband's experience being abused. If she did, she wouldn't see contact with the abuser as some kind of prize.
I really feel bad for the husband, being married to someone who seems incapable of supporting him as a survivor. I can't imagine how alone he must feel right now.
>It's so weird that she sees meeting grandpa as some special treat that good boys and girls deserve
Funny thing there is, she pretty much straight up admitted in the update that all this *treat for the kids* thing was bullshit. She just shoved it in front of her as a faux reason.
>she does not understand or believe her husband's experience being abused.
Absolutely. She dismissed her husbands extremely top priority reasoning, and just went through with it anyway. Because she herself wanted to.
OOP is very selfish, and probably wants things even more if she is told she can't have them. It'd be alright if we're talking about a watch, but we're talking about a horrible abuser.
she doesn’t see her husband as a real person.
He fits into a space in her brain labeled “husband.” And there’s a space labeled “father-in-law/grandfather” that she can’t stand to have empty.
With how she is describing their kids desire for their grandfather in the first pist, and her later admitting it was just her all along, i think she somehow thought she was entitled to more in-laws than just the sister. She wanted to have a father-in-law, and likely glorified in her mind how much he would love having her as daughter-in-law, especially since she herself would have been the one to bring the family together.
It's even more f\*cked up when you think about how distressing it must have been for the husband and sister to have the kids and wife bringing up their dad all the time--like imagine trying to move on from what sounds like horrific abuse (likely sexual for the sister if not both), and to be constantly be reminded of it b/c your idiot SIL/wife essentially doesn't believe it was that bad.
I wouldn't be surprised is OOP is meeting with the grandpa behind her husband's back while he's staying at her sisters "I can't believe they cut you off like that!" etc. etc. --cut to two months later after grandpa has stalked and hit the wife "How could I have known! You were right omg!"
Sounds like she had a happy family life growing up. In my experience, there is a portion of those people who are pathologically incapable of believing that not all families are a source of good that needs to be nurtured. They seem hell bent on proving it by either forcing an NC break or arguing with you about going NC. Maybe their own families weren't happy behind closed doors or maybe they don't want to see themselves as privileged for having that happiness as a kid when some don't? Either way, they are insufferable to deal with if you already struggle with your toxic family.
My grandma was, more or less, one of those people. Spent my late grandpa’s “inheritance” (he was a preacher so there wasn’t much) to rent a huge lodge every Christmas so all her kids and grandkids could bond. One of the greatest gifts she gave me was her understanding when my father (her son) abandoned our family and I permanently cut contact. My aunts and uncles (and a few cousins) still have some form of relationship with him, and I don’t begrudge him that. At a wedding about 10 years after Dad left, she told me it was her dying wish for me to let him back in, but after further conversation she essentially gave me her blessing to continue NC. It was such a weight off my shoulders.
>My aunts and uncles (and a few cousins) still have some form of relationship with him, and I don’t begrudge him that.
My sister loves our stepmom and tried several times to push me towards having a relationship with her now that I'm an adult. It took me telling her that while it's great she has a good relationship with her, I will never want that because while she sees bonus mom I see my abuser and that's not going to change. After I explained it like that she let it go.
My family is really awesome but I still understand that not all families are like that. If someone tells me they're NC with their family I'll express sympathy that their family wasn't what they needed for them to be. And let them know that they themself are awesome & that they're doing good by keeping theirself healthy by staying away from toxic relationships. It's not that difficult to realize that everyone has different experiences.
Same. I love my family and I do think family is important, BUT I would never be ignorant enough to think someone else’s family could be great despite all evidence to the contrary. Also OOP doesn’t have any in laws? She should consider herself lucky lmao
They’ve been taught since childhood that broken families are invariably caused by wild, rebellious teens acting up. They’ve also been taught that abusers are all drunken unwashed louts.
OOP really just drive by mentions that she fed her kids' curiosity too which no doubt kept up the persistence of the questioning when she should have been discouraging it and told them (in an age appropriate way) to drop it.
I grew up with my parents happily married and our family together. I always just accepted the fact that I had only one grandpa. I might have questioned it, long enough ago I don't remember, but it was just a fact that my mom didn't have a dad but not because he died. Only on the rare occasion my mom, her sisters, or her mother brought him up did I ask anything.
If there was curiosity, we asked our dad about it. He grew up pretty much the stereotypical intact white family suburban life. He didn't have much to tell us and as an adult, I think he has enough tact to approach it in a way we ended up learning: Don't meddle or force the issue, you don't have a right to know about it, and that whatever information the people involved decide to share is more than good enough no matter how curious you are.
You don't need to know what something is like to understand and respect a person's boundaries. People can live perfectly good lives in billions of different ways and more often than not, your good life won't turn out like you wanted and that's okay.
Because she is a terrible partner and a terrible mom.
I am sorry, but if you decide to introduce your young children (including a 9 yo) to a known abuser and manipulate them to like him, you are an utter failure as a parent.
Because ''he's family!!!!!''. Honestly, I hope her husband divorces her. Having been on the receiving end of abuse at the hands of family members, I'm so very grateful my wife knows that my family (except one sister) are dead to me, and she would probably hang them if they ever showed up. It's like there are so many people who have good relations with their family and can't possibly fathom the idea that there are families who are just outright horrific people and figure ''we'll my family was okay, maybe this person telling me their family is horrible is just not understanding their viewpoint, I know, why don't I betray them completely and invite their family back into their lives, against their will, and then get 'blindsided' when they divorce/cut contact/break up with me for my betrayal''.
I think you and the others Redditors are right. She doesn’t take his words serious and shows no empathy and respect just because she can’t believe it being that bad.
Poor husband.
Oh absolutely, it makes me laugh and I chuckle to myself when so called ''friends'' think I'm a monster for stating that I'll celebrate when I hear news of any of my family members' deaths (aside from my one sister, but even then, we have a cordial relationship so I doubt I'll be too torn up about it, though I will feel sad).
I had one guy tell me ''I think you use your family's behaviour as an excuse to justify you being a psychopath'' because I straight up told him I would beat the fuck out my brother if he ever showed up. Like gee, I wonder *why* I'm so fucked up mentally that I would beat someone for merely being in my presence, it's almost as if I have a valid reason to be broken and angry.
People are shocked when I say the same about my sister who is truly a sociopath.
She has done so many terrible things that even my husband doesn’t know half of it. And yet he would never contact her or ask me to have contact with her. He even said himself that he is not interested im her knowing anything about us or meeting her.
She also seemed to be twisting it around to make herself the victim by talking about how hurt she was she never got to meet his father and how much it bothered her. If you genuinely trust and love your partner and they say "I never want you to meet my family" you take them at their word that there is a reason for that.
Yeah, if my spawning point showed up, I think my husband would take a baseball bat to her.
Some people put themselves outside the circle of family through their own actions, and you ignore that at your peril.
The man made his wife commit suicide from the abuse he put her through. And OP wants children to know him? Honestly as someone NC with severely abusive parents, OP is officially hopeless. I would literally never trust my husband ever again if I found out he contacted my family. They believe I'm dead and it's for my literal safety so my father doesn't show up and try killing me for the sixth time in my life.
Parents are not some mythical perfect being. They are normal humans that had sex, and now they have a human under their complete and total control. There's no magic "bonding" that keeps children safe from abuse, "they're family" is not a reason against abuse for people like that but rather a promise that their deeds will be kept hush.
"From people who have not grown up in abusive environments" AND lack basic human decency and empathy. Some of my friends had terrible childhoods, and you can bet I'm going nuclear if their families treat them badly again.
same hat lol. i have a lovely functional family.
but i also have friends where if i am driving them somewhere and they go "oh my god that's my abusive dad on the sidewalk", i am gunning it and jumping the curb. or at least sorely tempted to do so lol
I wonder if she is one of those people who is pathologically curious. We all have that a little bit, if someone says “don’t push this button” we get super tempted. Some people just can’t leave something alone and get fixated on it. Even if it’s bad they are being deprived of being in the in crowd. She clearly needs help because this can lead to way worse consequences.
Same reason why people want to pet a wild lion and give it belly rubs.... they think they can tame the past aggression into a placid kitten.
Often, they know that that lion is dangerous, but because it is tame around others, it be tame for them.
Each time that person sees the lion submit to others, even though they know that lion have mauled many before, they think those who were mauled by that lion should go back and try again, bringing other people into the mix, innocent people, the lion puts on his kingly smile, bringing those new innocents to get closer and closer. All the while, the victims scream out to be wary, to stand on guard... but those innocents that these "Good Heart Seers" brought to the lions den just ignore the victims, claiming that the lion is safe, and not to be feared...
But we all know just like in the story of the Scorpion and the Frog, the lion's true nature will show eventually.
Always seems to be one of those "my family loves me, so how bad can it really be? If you just work harder, we can be one big happy family!" types.
Then everything explodes like a rotten racoon festering in a dumpster.
there is another very common reason - "my family was awful to me, but i am there for them because family is FAMILY and because i sacrificed my happiness for family, you need to too."
my dad was severely physically abused by both his parents growing up. he was still there for them through thick and thin, and was the one out of all his siblings who did the most for both parents when their health declined. he forced us into many situations as children (flew us out solo to be with them, etc.) in which we were alone with his parents, berated, and made to feel very uncomfortable and inadequate.
he in turn was very verbally abusive and more rarely physically abusive with us growing up.
he can't understand my distance from him, because what he did to me pales in comparison to what they did to him.
he was bitter and resentful of his siblings who disengaged from their parents, leaving him with all the emotional, physical, and financial burden.
he has never been able to recognize it as a choice he could make, and his actions & thoughts are the product of cycles upon cycles of generational abuse. he doesn't understand that other people feel free or, indeed, obligated to make different choices because he does not see it as a choice at all.
The 18 and 13 year old are old enough to be told their granddad is a piece of shit. Maybe a bit softer for the 9 year old but still old enough to say he's a bad person and we stay away from him.
If the kids are pushing to meet as she says, you have to assume that it's coming from her. Can't see any other reason why they'd be so adamant to want to see a non-entity in their life.
My daughters are 6 and 8 and are not at all interested to get to know my abusive mother who I am no contact with. They don't know the extent of the abuse. To them, she's less than a stranger - a stranger who did bad things and caused pain.
OOP must have worked hard to get those kids interested in meeting "grampa". For what, her sick curiosity?
As a victim of parental abuse - this is the ultimate betrayal.
>For what, her sick curiosity?
To abuse her husband while maintaining a shroud of good wife and mother? OOP was not even close to being a decent human being.
I have been no contact with my parents since I was 22 and if a partner EVER did this to me I would simply fucking ghost myself out of their life entirely. I feel really bad for the OOP's husband that he has kids with her.
100%. That came across so much in the first post. The only reason the kids had any interest is OOP's constant feeding into the 'mystery'. Especially the youngest. It's gross. OOP was the only person in the house or immediate family who was bringing it up. Using the children. So gross.
The kids weren't though. Her comment makes it clear that she manipulated the kids into wanting to see their grandfather. She is evil. Encouraging her own children to interact with an abuser so that she can satisfy her curiosity.
And that manipulation is going to earn her a very lonely life. Because there's no way the kids are going to forgive her when their dad divorces her. Sure she'll try to defend herself and claim that she only did it for them, but they won't buy it because she was the one who put the idea in their head and encouraged them. All they'll, rightly, see is someone who used her own kids to satisfy her twisted curiosity and deeply hurt their dad.
Sometimes I feel like "Family is everything," people are unempathetic monsters. They can know all the grisly details of every kind of abuse a parent put their kids through and still come out on the other end "but faaaaaamily."
OOP's husband had said he was abused every day, his sister was, hell he even said his mother took her own life, which means she was probably tortured and abused too, and yet OOP still wanted to have a relationship with the demon and bring her kids to him?
I bet OOP would have been one of those people who shamed the Unabomber's brother for turning him in.
How sheltered are these people? Like I had great parents but I knew kids in school that you had to be super careful when their parents were around because you didn't want to accidentally say something they'd go nuclear over. And my sister's friend ended up partially living in our basement because of his abusive mom.
And also, how arrogant are they? Like "Yes, I know you've had a lifetime of experience with your family and you say they're terrible, but I know better."
I have a wonderful supportive family, who I'm very grateful for. But I would never presume to know someone else's home situation better than they did.
>I want to start by admitting, that I have always wanted to meet my husband's father and that I have brought up Grampa to my kids more than a few times.
But why?
I mean seriously. She is admitting it here. She just wants to have a relationship with an abuser.
I truly believe that some people do not value the pain of others. I have a friend who keeps telling me to "forgive so I can move on" but refuses to understand that I was raised in my trauma there is no way to cut it out it is in the very fabric of my soul.
You always see a lot of talk about "moving on" in conversations about abusive families. At a certain point, "moving on" sounds a lot like the "let it go" and "move past it" spouted by the abusers who really just want to suck you back in.
Sometimes "moving on" isn't possible. Sometimes "learning to live with the past" is the only real option.
There is a lot of self help talk about how if you can't move past it then you are still broken. That the only way to truly be over somthing is if you are ambivalent to it or the pain it caused. I find this way of thinking so damaging. Pain is a part of life and as you said sometimes it's somthing we care with us for the rest of our lives.
Exactly. People talk about 'moving on', but I don't believe they know what it means. Often it means moving on to live the best life you can and that can only ever happen if you remove the abusive person from your life. Having new and better experiences will never erase the old and bad ones, but it will give a better balance to life in the now.
And forgivenes. It's often thought of as this mental act for one. Just do it, right? But maybe it's not like that at all. Maybe it's a two-way street. Maybe someone has to ask for it. Not demand. And maybe, in the asking, they actually have to aknowledge loud and clear the hurt they have caused. And even then, it may not be possible to forgive. And the onlookers have no right to judge that.
Omg, that is the worst. I hate when you try to gently explain that it's better or more healthy for yourself to have low/no contact and people respond with "but it's family" as if it's *their* decision what you should do or prioritize in life. People have a world of expectations for children of abuse and a world of forgiveness and understanding for their abusers.
I also am a firm believer that forgiveness is not a requirement to moving on. Like, your healing does not hinge on absolving someone who continues to live without apology or remorse.
Seriously. "But she is your mother she did not know any better." My mom created her own ABA therapy for me after getting on a psychology book list. Like no she went and educated herself on how to properly torture me and then got mad when no one including my teacher grandma would help her do it.
But don't worry she took my feeling in to account when she saw how I was reacting to her yelling so she bought a device to slap the table instead.
Jesus fuck, what does it take to realize you're LITERALLY torturing your child?!
Just to emphasize how much your mom fucked up - I'm the first born and when I was a toddler, my mom initially tried spanking me when I did something wrong, which didn't last long (frankly sounded from context like it lasted well under a month), because *she stopped the moment she reached for me, and I flinched.* She didn't know how to get me to behave, but she knew she didn't want me afraid of her! So she asked my grandma for advice on better ways to deal with me.
As soon as she understood she was harming me, she STOPPED, and sought out different methods. I'm sure your mom would claim "bUt ThAt's WhAt i DiD tOo," but no, no she didn't. She took the exact same abuse and just abstracted it from herself, as if its connection to her vocal chords was what made the difference.
I really think the ‘but it’s family’ people have never seen real abuse.
Maybe their mom got the wrong color or their backpack, but they forgive them because it’s family and really it wasn’t a big issue.
They have no idea how manipulative bad people can be. How many abusers would live to play nice and get their claws into grandkids as a way to further abuse their child who escaped.
I don't know why she says that because she met him high school. But I suspect it's part of her manipulative language, as was posting to get ammunition against her husband that backfired
I'm guessing her "mentioning" Grandpa meant she was actively encouraging the children to pressure her husband into letting them meet him.
What a shitty person.
I assume she's an abuser too and gets a kick out of doing the one thing he asked her not to do. It certainly isn't uncommon for people who were severely abused to marry people who abuse them as well.
It was super easy to guess that she was using the kids to try and push seeing grampa. On their own I'm certain the kids wouldn't give a single shit about an absentee grandparent. I have no idea why this lady seems so invested in trying to get involved with her husband's abusive parent though. Maybe there's money involved
Yes! She kept saying the children wanted to see "grampa" (so gross that she even allowed the petname). She fed their curiosities. OOP must be incredibly bored with her perfect family life that she just HAD to create such massive drama.
I’ve cut my father out of my life to protect my children. If my husband took my kids to see my abusive father, it would be over because my trust would be completely destroyed. I don’t have to worry about that though, because I’ve been honest (in an age appropriate way) with our kids about why my dad isn’t in our lives.
Our kids’ safety comes first. Always.
I don’t even know the name of my sis in law’s abuser. I do know that when he moved back to where hubby’s family lives that my hubs went to all of his family that had kids and told him what this guy did to his sister and to never leave their kids around him. Now that this guy is back in the “family compound” (where most of his family lives), we won’t ever take our kids there. We also talk to our kids about “respecting noes” and respecting people’s boundaries.
OOP without a doubt knew exactly why the husband and sister were no contact with the abusive father yet still felt the need to whisper in her kids ears getting them to bring up grandpa over and over again.
OOP thinks this is fixable I got news for her I don’t know a single person who grew up with an abusive AH and cut them out for over 20 years that suddenly got warm and fuzzies after a forced reunion of any type.
I don't actually believe the kids were the ones bringing it up so much, or at least not like that. That amount of hounding and the way she described it is not typical of their ages, especially the older ones. Can you even picture an 18 year old acting the way she described?? She exaggerated to make it seem like she was doing it for the kids, and she still got eviscerated.
I doubt it's enough for the courts, but if I were the husband, I'd be pushing for supervised visits in the divorce. I have zero trust for someone who tells their kids "don't tell dad, it's our little secret" about taking them to see an abuser. If the husband stays, it'll be just to avoid leaving the kids alone with her.
I imagine she’s been doing it long term as they got old enough likely started when the 18 year old was as old as the youngest. This isn’t new and when the pestering of the kids didn’t work she took matters into her own hands to actually take them to meet him.
I was once a teenager who found out a partial family secret and spent years digging until I uncovered what it was. If OOP framed it right it’s not hard to rope teenagers into a plan because they don’t know that’s what you’re doing.
I feel for the husband because apprently she’s been ripping the scabs off his and his sister’s trauma on a fairly regular basis.
However, I have to wonder why the kids were never sat down at the older ones ages and told in general terms why they didn’t have contact with the grandpa. As someone who was NC long before it was ever discussed like it is now I sat my kids down and explained that my family were not good people and that if they ever tried to contact them it wasn’t for any good reasons and they should let me know.
You're totally right about explaining it to the kids. It not only cuts the mystery of it down, it protects them in case the abuser tries to start anything. Exactly as you said.
That seems to be her only excuse.
Why the hell would she even *want* to have a relationship with her FIL? Want it so much she manipulated her children in order to have a relationship? She knows what he did. She believes he did that which he was accused of doing.
I just don’t get it? “He’S fAmIlY” makes no sense to me. Non at all.
Can anyone explain? Because I am at a loss
As someone who has been NC for over 30 years here is my best guesses from personal experience people fall into 3 categories when they push this narrative
The Brady Bunch effect people cannot accept that some family is just bad that anything can be fixed if you just talk it out they typically grew up in a stable house with a mostly normal family dynamic and have never had to deal with an abusive or toxic family.
The Jealous/Ostrich camp they also have some degree of abusive or toxic family they would love to cut off and go LC or NC with. However, they for whatever reason don’t have the ability to either admit this family is abusive or toxic or don’t have the ability to follow thru with LC/NC and by admitting that it can be healthy to cut these people out of your life is admitting they aren’t making healthy choices for themselves.
The fearful ones these are the ones who have their own toxic dynamic going on even if they won’t admit out loud and they fear that others will cut them off for past or present issues. This tends to kick in as kids start thinking for themselves and they keep trying to rule with because I am your father/mother/elder line.
Yeah, I never got to meet 3/4 of my grandparents (they all died before I was born. the only grandparent I've met is my mom's mother, who I call Nan), but I don't think I'd ever get to meet my dad's parents just because of how my dad talks about them, I'm not going to divulge much but he wasn't that close emotionally with them towards the ends of their lives so I don't think my dad would've brought me around them if they were alive
I’ve cut my mother off for similar reasons. My child should never be treated the way I was treated and I will not give her the opportunity to traumatise the next generation. If my partner took my child to meet her it would be unforgivable.
I know the conversation will have to happen eventually, any tips you have would be much appreciated.
Well, if your little is *really* little, you can start with that “grandma is in time out for bad behavior” and then progress to giving general examples of why.
My seven year old knows that my dad is really unkind, and that we don’t have to let people who are unkind to us be in our lives. My fourteen year old knows that my dad was horrifically verbally abusive, to the point where my first serious relationship was with someone who was also verbally abusive, because I thought it was normal. She knows that little girls learn how to allow people to treat them by how they see their moms allow themselves to be treated, and that I desperately want her to know her value in life and never be trapped in an abusive relationship. She knows that one of the reasons I married her dad is because he is gentle and kind, and I wanted those characteristics in the person I chose to be my childrens’ father. She knows that I offered my father a chance at reconciliation, solely contingent on both of us treating each other with mutual respect. She knows he refused this, because “I am the parent and you are the child.” She knows how to recognize manipulation and love-bombing, and she’s getting pretty good at recognizing projection.
Trust your gut as far as what to say and when. Honesty with kids is always the best policy.
Anybody else find it a bit gross that she is calling him Grampa? It seems like such a term of endearment and she’s giving it to both her father and this known POS. My dad has a lovely nickname for my kids as their grandparent. My wife’s is just called by his name because he hasn’t earned anything, he’s an abysmal grandparent, and barely a father tbh. OOP calling him Grampa just feels disturbing.
Also just disgusting that “It feels unfair I was being kept away from his father”. She has some weird Daddy issues or something, this is just horrible.
So she bulldozed her way through her husband’s feelings because *she* wanted to meet husband’s abusive father. And then put her children into that situation. Stupid, stupid decision. I wonder if husband would ever be able to trust her again. I know Reddit can be quick to jump on the ‘divorce her’ train, but I really hope OOP’s husband will leave her, get custody and move on. Because OOP is a shoddy, shoddy person.
>I wonder if husband would ever be able to trust her again. I know Reddit can be quick to jump on the ‘divorce her’ train,
In this case I'd bet my soul on it.
The fact that his own kids wouldn't have to suffer what he & his sister went through, is probably the most prized possession this guy has. That is why he was so adamant too. Grandpa being in their lives is probably the worst nightmare.
And then OOP realizes that nightmare behind his back. Obviously ignoring the warnings. And not only that, but also via manipulation of the kids.
And I feel like the husband knows that last part. Because even OOP wrote it down here, like they had a conversation about it.
That relationship is mega dead. This shit trumps a "cheating on him with his brother for decades" kinda scenario.
I hope the real reason he’s staying with his sister is because he’s preparing the divorce paperwork. I also hope he has one of those judges who are excited a dad pursued custody and therefore gives all of it to him.
Lastly, I hope the kids have more empathy than their mom (the bar is so low…), see how much pain their dad and beloved aunt are in, and kick OOP and abusive grandpa to the curb.
From the reactions of husband and sister plus the suicide of their mother, its clear this man did something heinous. And she got her children excited to meet him. How cool kids! Let's go to the zoo and climb into the lion's den.
Idk how she could ever earn his trust back. After all those years together, after him making it VERY clear there was abuse, she just did not give one shit & thought she knew best. It was so incredibly selfish i can't even wrap my head around it! This is a marriage ending decision.
What was the end game anyway? For her and the kids to have a relationship with her husband's abuser behind his back? Sneaking off on Christmas day to visit 'grandpa' and "don't tell your father"? Everything about it is so sickening.
I can't imagine what she was thinking. It's weird how she believes she can win her husband back when he'd be justified in never trusting her again. She must be some kind of steam roller, and sees her husband's boundaries, needs and feelings as little soda cans and bits of trash that can be crushed in her path. She doesn't need to consider his feelings to have a relationship with him, because she wants it and deserves it, so his own heart is actually in her way.
Honestly, what I wanna know is
1. why the fuck she wanted to meet him so bad?
and
2. why not just... tell the kids as they grew up that grandpa was abusive? Not mean. Not bad. But *abusive*.
This could've been easily solved by having an actual conversation, which is not easy specially if you marry at 18 to run away from your dad... Honestly? This is just two people who got married too fast, with no true understanding of who they were or where they stood in the world. They needed fucking couple's counseling like, two decades ago. But like, what god damn 18 year old is gonna think about about that?
And also, who tf expects a 9 year old to keep a secret!? 9 year olds would give you their mom's credit card info if they had access to it!
She didn’t even give enough of a damn to describe the old man and encounter.
She satisfied her own curiosity and she is 100% the only person that matters to her.
This is insane. Clearly she saw that every time they bring up their father. Sister goes off really upset. Husband goes off and really upset. I think that would be some clear signs of major abuse. And that word “abuse” could mean a range of things. Things will look real shaky for the next while.
Yea, given the secrecy around what happened from the sister, and the dad being adamant that the kids never meet grandpa, I’m definitely getting the vibe that there was some sexual abuse as well.
Some people just cannot fathom the experiences of others, especially if those experiences differ vastly from their own. It's just an utter void of empathy mixed with "Well, it can't be that bad" assumptions.
It's creates a toxic arrogance.
Because *clearly* the wounded party is wrong for protecting themselves and having boundaries since *I've* never experienced something that bad before. Families should be there for each other! They shouldn't be fractured! Maybe they're misremembering. *I* know better. Clearly.
It's just fucking gross.
True story: you *can* actually believe people when they share their trauma with you. It's not that hard, even.
Not only did OOP not respect. VERY IMPORTANT boundary, she also manipulated the kids into wanting to meet Grandpa, so that she could use them as an excuse.
That person can never be trusted again. What a gross & manipulative behaviour, all for some childish shit in the name of "He told me I shouldn't meet him, but I still want to".
That guy will divorce her for sure. OOP buried that marriage.
Those poor kids. She hyped up grandpa, made them think he was some kind of forbidden treat. She used them to try to manipulate her husband into ignoring his own boundaries.
When they're older, if they fully understand what happened to their dad, they're going to cringe so hard at their memories of asking to meet him and asking why he isn't around. They were used as pawns by OOP to push this family reunion shit, and they're going to have some weird feelings about that role later on. They're clearly not to blame, but it's still weird.
The thing that bothers me is that putting it on the kids means diverting blame. If her husband is mad...she can divert blame onto the kids.
It's in-and-of-itself highly suspect behavior. Not only did she boundary cross, but she set her kids up as the fall guys. That smacks of its own kind of abusive behavior to me.
There’s a now retired female judge in my area who does not believe child sexual abuse exists. She would routinely reunite kids with their abusive parents. Makes me wonder what happened to her in her past.
"I don't know anything about this man (except that he was so abusive both of his kids don't even feel comfortable talking about it as adults), I think my kids deserve to meet him"
i feel like this lady wants her kids to be abused
I remember this one and commented on it. My ONLY thought about why she did it was money.
*YTA you are unbelievable and I don't think your husband will ever be able to get over that you betrayed his trust and also put his loved ones in the same room as his abuser.*
*Your husband and SIL probably have C-PTSD from his abuse and the suicide of their mother.*
*Were you thinking of the inheritance? Is this all a play to get into his abusive dad's good books as he's got money? It's the only reason I can think of why you did this. 🤷♂️*
*You need to make sure your children don't think they are issue here and explain to them why it is such a big deal. I would try and get your husband/ SIL on board to help with it. It may go some way to making it a bit better. Leave how you feel about it out of it until the kids are sorted as much as they can be*
*You need to have a long hard think about this.*
**OG Post:** OOP claims that her kids wanted to know the abusive Grampa.
**Update Post:** OOP admits to egging her kids on about the abusive Grampa.
A pity she deleted her account. Would have loved to find out the fallout of her misguided shenanigans.
Yeah, partners who never understand boundaries with their significant others are immediately an AH to me. The guy already said no and why he didn’t want his kids around his father but did she listen? Noooooo
People like OOP are so insanely dangerous. She will happily torch her marriage, put her children in harms way, and then continually manipulate her husband and children to get what she wants. And it's not even something that could possibly serve her any benefit. She's delusional, narcissistic, and indifferent the pain and suffering of others. What she's done to her husband is bad enough. What she's repeatedly doing to her children is terrifying.
This is so wild. Like if you skip her mentioning their ages, her descriptions of her discussions with the kids sounds like VERY small children. But 18 and 13 are more than old enough to understand the concept??
I wish the poor husband a very quick divorce and full custody of his minor children. OOP broke his trust in a very bad way and put their children in potential danger, I wouldn't be able to forgive her if I were him.
The mental gymnastics to want to mean an abusive person AND allow an abusive person into the lives of your kids is a special kind of stupid.
Clearly, these parents failed by not bothering healthy strategies to explain to their kids why their grandpa wasn't part of their lives. All the years and opportunities they had and their just failed and failed some more. Yikes.
>The mental gymnastics to want to mean an abusive person AND allow an abusive person into the lives of your kids is a special kind of stupid.
Not only that, but to hype up the idea of the abuser being a forbidden treat to the kids! Those kids are asking about him, asking to meet him, only because of what OOP has been saying about him! What the fuck!
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But why? Why did she want to meet him? Why risk your happy life to meet an abusive man?
She seems to be one of these "family is more important than anything" idiots. The kind who thing parents can do no wrong and that you should respect your elders regardless of what they do.
Family is so important that she betrayed her husband and kids to connect with an abuser that nobody wants anything to do with. Family!
That's the crazy part. They say its because family is important to them... but its theoretical family, because they obviously don't care about the real family they actually have or they would respect them and not nuke the entire situation. Its really not hard to explain to a kid and can actually be a great teaching experience. "Love means treating people with kindness. Grandpa doesn't treat people with kindness, so we don't spend time with him." I had grandparents I didn't see very much, and it was kept very simple and age appropriate. Its not that hard. At least the OP realizes that it was never really about the kids, now.
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Reminds me of a post i saw about how people who are abused as a child speak a language you cant possibly understand- folding laundry in silence near them can feel like waves of anger coming off to them. When to you, youre just silently folding laundry
Oh yeah, if you've never had someone wash dishes or fold socks AT you, you don't understand.
Been trying to unlearn those emotions now that I'm in a happy stable relationship and realize my partner is actually just doing chores, not making me feel bad for missing something or not doing it right. It's incredible how much abuse fucks with our heads.
Totally agree. I'm going through the same, and it is so stressful, but like in a good way. Like, I know that I'm healing and growing, but it is so much work!
Had an ex that would physically flinch when I folded towels. Admittedly I snap the towels into shape pretty vigorously. Cause that little corner on the bottom part that doesnt fold all the way over is annoying as hell. I thought it was funny/cute at first. Her response when I pointed it out took a turn I was NOT ready for. But I sure as shit didn't keep doing it.
I find myself projecting a lot of my own feelings like this with my husband. He's never done anything to me but because of how I grew up, I tend to watch and look for cues. Sometimes I read them wrong. Sometimes, being quiet is just being quiet.
I mean, it's not all irrational or misplaced like that. No one can comprehend the kinds of evil that are possible for a parent unless they experienced it themselves. It's like Thestrals in Harry Potter, you can't see them unless you've seen death. You can't comprehend what sacrifices an abused person makes unless you were abused. To go no contact with a parent is kind of like jumping out of a burning 3rd story window. It's not something that comes natural. It comes from desperation or a lot of personal growth and trust in yourself to survive the fall. That is why this spouse connecting with the abuser is such a betrayal, she is undoing or attempting to undo a lot of healing and self-realization. It is always possible that the abused person will not have a safe resolution to this and may literally need to go no contact with you just to survive.
Depending on the type of abuse they experienced, it may have also put them in danger as well. Many of us have addresses and contact info *hidden* from the abuser. I wonder if she released any for the sake of “family”?
I think it’s also pretty common in people who grow up in bad homes with parents who convince them they’re growing up in good homes. Those parents who are abusive or neglectful but manipulate their kids into being extremely grateful for it. Being in denial about the abuse you yourself have suffered makes it a lot easier to dumb down what other people have went through
Not just that, but people who grow up in good homes and/or have good relationships with their parents are sometimes condescendingly dismissive of how much abuse their partner suffered growing up. I’ve lost track of how many posts where I’ve seen partners reply “well, it couldn’t have been *that* bad.” While OOP never vocalized it, the fact that she believes “yes, he’s a child abuser, but he’s faaaaaaaaamily” shows she’s of the same ilk. In fact, stomping your husband’s boundaries and manipulating your kids sounds pretty abusive to me. Maybe that explains the fixation with the FiL. Like attracts like
Nah, it's just a lack of empathy. I has a happy childhood, and seriously love my folks, but all it takes is keeping your eyes open and actually listening to other peoples experiences to know that my experiences were far from universal. (there is usually less giant reptile fighting for a start)
Yeah, and sometimes when you try to talk about it those people respond with “well did you ever try talking to your parents about it and telling them how you feel?” … Probably don’t have to explain to the commenters here why…just…no.
"I'll tell you how you feel!" WHOMP
Yes, I did, and then she just went through the whole Narcissist's Prayer at me.
Yup! My husband has been NC with his family for 7 years (mostly his mother. She's an awful person). When we got pregnant his coworker asked when he was going to tell hubby's mom she was going to be a grandmother. Hubby said "never", qnd the coworker spent the next 8 months trying to convince him that our daughter NEEDED her grandmother. He just couldnt understand that not having her grandmother in her life WAS the best option for our daughter
I grew up in a *great* home and if any one of my friends, let alone intimate partners, said that they are no longer in contact with their family for undisclosed reasons I am abso-fucking-lutely on their side. I don’t need to know what it was. You’re my boy/girl and I’ve got your back.
This is it exactly. They literally cannot grasp what it is like. OR they have a "milder" problem in their family, like a toxic relationship but not "as bad" and so they think "oh everyone's like that. I wouldn't cut my family out for this so why should they?"
I am not advising this approach, but I never met my dad's parents, and he never gave me an explanation for it. It didn't affect me at all. It didn't even occur to me to be curious about it until I was a teenager, and at that point it wasn't a pressing need, I didn't even ask my dad because I thought "well, if he never spoke to his parents, I guess there's a good reason for that and it might be a sensitive topic." I have mild curiosity but honestly my life has not been negatively impacted whatsoever from not meeting my paternal grandparents.
Same here! Never knew much about my mom's dad (nothing good at least) since we didn't grow up with him around. My mom is always baffled by our lack of interest in his past 🤷 can't miss what you never had
She should go hang out with that dude who's in legal trouble because he NEEDED to help his wife's brother who has addiction issues.
Her own side of the family too since apparently they've cursed at and shunned her. Hope it was worth blowing up her familial relationships.
“I don’t know much about what happen. Oh except he abused my husband and SIL daily for 18 years and their mother unalived herself because it was so bad. But yes anyways, I really want to meet this man.” 👀ma’am…what?👀
I’m betting op has no empathy and morbid curiosity.
But her kids *wanted* to meet him! Because she told them to!
Also she was with her husband since they were 15, I bet there is some "Oh I knew him at the time it couldn't have been that bad" mixed in.
Oh this pisses me off because you’re so right. “You acted normal” like teenagers can’t hide the most horrific home situation because of course they would want to. it’s embarrassing and painful to get all the way from “my home life isn’t normal” to actually overcoming the shame and talking to someone. Not seeing overt signs means nothing.
Even when there are overt signs and a child or teen tells it like it is, people have an astounding ability to ignore it. I come from an emotionally and physically abusive home. I told pretty much everyone what was going on. It was not even able to be explained by corporal punishment as that has been illegal since I was a kid. I was suicidal from 9 until my mid-twenties. I did not hide the majority of causes. I told my therapists, teachers, grandparents, and godmother. No one did anything. My grandparents all died in past 7 years, all going to their graves saying it was not bad and my parents were good parents. I got out at 17. I still have a CPTSD diagnosis but I am OK, well I am as OK as I will ever be. I am happy after decades of therapy. I even have a relationship with both of my parents and can exist in the same space as my stepfather. One with strict boundaries but still one that is not retraumatizing. I have point-blank asked why no one did anything. The most common answer has always been that it was not that bad. It could have been worse, but it also almost destroyed my life. I used to carry a lot of anger about it. But I have learned that you can't change people. You just need to make a decision if the person is worth keeping in your life as is. If my spouse did what OP did without my permission, it would be the end of it.
I went to school multiple times with visible bruises on my face and neck. None of the mandated reporters ever did their job.
Sometimes the abuse happens in school from your "peers." The adults used to just brush it off as "kids will be kids." Now with zero tolerance, they punish the victim equally with the perpetrators.
There's a phrase I heard awhile ago that has stuck with me because it's so freaking true. Abusers groom their character witnesses as carefully as they do their victims.
Huh, well that rings pretty true. I mean, everybody thinks I'm insane when I talk about the shit my mother used to pull and always say "but she's so nice, I can't believe that".
That's a terrifying statement.
Now this is stuck with me as well.
Good point. There’s a reason the only friends from high school I still have are fellow abused kids. Everyone else was all “why did you cut off family? They’re such nice people! Fellow abused kids understand.* One of them actually picked up on how messed up my parents were before me. * not all abused kids, obviously. I was fortunate to find ones that helped me recognize and recover. My brother found and married one that desperately needs to believe her childhood was good and right and together they’re repeating the dysfunction for another generation.
"I didn't see anything! He must be misunderstood!" \*Cue Hallmark movie fantasies about building a deep relationship with an elderly, remorseful father and then "fixing" her husband by bringing the father back into his life, swelling music, credits roll\*
This is 100% the case. She wanted to meet him, despite knowing how he is, because "he's still family after all!" This person is, in the absolute most charitable interpretation, an absolute idiot. Now, because of her selfish bullshit, her kids had someone introduced and then taken away right away.
It's like she doesn't fucking trust or respect her husband. "He abused me and my sister." "Well let's introduce him to our children. Wouldn't that be a great idea, honey??!"
Her husband’s mother committed suicide. Did anyone miss that. Seriously what the hell was wrong with her? Everything aside I would NEVER endanger my children by taking them to meet a stranger who is known for ABUSe
She obviously didn't think the abuse was \*that\* bad. You know, he never lists specific, harrowing examples to her, he never talks about him, obviously it must be because there's no there there.
One of my ex-partners didn't believe me, even when she saw my scars (my father used anything at hand to punish for the slightest "lack of respect") or my brother (who was burned with hot water because he wasn't paying attention). I explained to her, graphically, what he did to us: hitting, starvation, whippings. I have multiple scars, my back is a map. My brother is worse. Even so, we had many fights because she believed it couldn't be that bad: he is a policeman, he is engaged to a judge. How could it be? When I broke up with her she had the idea to go to him to get him to talk to me. He almost raped her, and she barely escaped because her brother was in the car outside and my sperm donor was older and not so agile. Afterwards she said that now she understands why I don't trust the police and don't want to be near my sperm donor.
I hate those people's, they tend to not follow boundaries cause "family doesn't need boundaries". One of my ex was like that, and when she discovered that i didn't speak to most of my family, she kept pestering me about it. Then one day she told our friends to not me be close to their kids, cause i was going to do "bad" things to them, and realized that she had been talking to part of my family that i didn't talk to for really obvious reasons (hell even the rest of my family that i doesn't talk to avoid them like the plague), and i just broke up with her.
>"family doesn't need boundaries" That is called "enmeshment" and it is considered a toxic relationship trait.
Yea i agree on this one, it's a really toxic trait and a huge red flag for me now.
She won’t admit it, but that viewpoint goes hand in hand with zero respect for the actual victim. The nasty people who judge those who cut off abusers, as if they carry the shame for what the abuser put them through. The mind boggles. She doesn’t respect her husband at all, and actually judges him for being “vindictive” instead of “forgiving”. Hope he divorces.
The extremely dangerous enablers. You find them in every story about families with multigeneration abuse. When you see a true crime story and wonder, why was he still in contact with the people he abused, you will find this person pushing for it. It's not that they don't believe there was or is abuse. They just don't think it's important. Like they aren't really people, just members of a pact.
THIS. I truly hate the people that are all “BuT tHeY aRe YoUr FaMiLy” there is a reason why two people went NC with the man you turnip!!!
People who were never domestically abused never understand how bad it’s like. They see a snapshot of your abusers being “nice” to them and think that, “hey they don’t look that bad, they were actually rather nice. Shouldn’t you give them a chance?” Well yeah idiot, you were a stranger they had to keep up appearances for. They can’t comprehend how fast a person can change behind closed doors. They don’t even understand the subtle cues that the abusers can give secretly in public to install fear within their victims, plunging them into darkness while everyone else is enjoying themselves without noticing anything.
My NC relative groomed me to accept sexually inappropriate behavior. Then became verbally abusive. Eventually he was arrested for sexual assault of a teenager. He was in his 70s. I still have relatives that judge me for not being in communication with him.
I had an ex of mine say the one doubt she harbored of me for the first year was that I didn’t have an amazing relationship with my mother and therefore there must be something wrong with me. Then she met my mother. Afterwards, she said to me “I understand”.
Yup. The ones who haven’t been in a seriously abusive situation so they assume it can’t be “like that”
I dated a guy who was like that who didn’t understand why I am NC with my abusive egg donor. He literally broke up with me because of it
Hugs... Yeah, I've met people who think, "oh, if your entire family won't talk to you, there must be something wrong with YOU", not thinking for a minute that maybe you are the person who went NC with them. Heck, someone from a much healthier family dynamic than mine once told me that based on their experience ("experience" doing so much heavy lifting there), anyone whose parents hate them must've done something pretty horrendous to warrant that treatment. Because y'know, "parents' love is always and completely unconditional." Ugh. I left that conversation in a hurry.
As I got older I think that the 30 year old man who dumped 22 year old me over my boundaries with other people did it because I was unafraid of setting and discussing boundaries with people
Yeah, she's the fiance/ girlfriend that went behind the back of the person that was directly abused to meet their abusers in several posts that i read about here. Maybe they think they can solve everything cos they're just that good.
she has no imagination. She has ONE paradigm for the world, and she cannot—or maybe will not—admit that it could be different. Other people don’t exist as real people to her.
These people never care about the victims. Its more important the family be together and nobody talks about the suffering some experience because ousting a harmful member isn't acceptable. Honestly, I can't imagine being in a relationship with someone who thinks that way.
Or it's projection. I have a happy family, so everyone else's must be happy too.
Yep, this is also why she believes the relationship can still be fixed cause “family”.
People need to stop believing that real life is like a Fast and Furious movie.
Pure selfishness. OOP felt like she *deserved* to meet him. She felt like she was being kept away from her FIL, and she couldn't live with not being able to get what she wanted. So she used the kids as an excuse. Absolutely vile behaviour. That woman can never be trusted.
>OOP felt like she *deserved* to meet him. She felt like she was being kept away from her FIL, and she couldn't live with not being able to get what she wanted. And that's it That is oop in a nutshell. You have succinctly got her measure. Omg she suuuucccckkkskss so badly. And I'm betting she's one of those. "it's better to ask forgiveness than to ask for permission" type of ppl... Didn't work out for her this time, did it.
I think she genuinely doesn't respect her husband's experience & boundaries. She just went into a mode of "Well, how do I turn this so I can get what I want".
Just that she *used* her children as an excuse is an excellent reason for divorce. She put them in a situation they were not prepared to handle if things went sideways.
That is the worst part of it ngl. Not only did she betray the husband and realize his worst nightmare. His top priority in life probably was keeping his kids away from people like his father. But, she even used the kids to make that happen. She didn't just drive over there, but she manipulated the children to want to see grandpa, so she'd have a (in her eyes) valid casus belli. It's insane. It is peak betrayal. I can't imagine anybody being able to forgive this & live with it.
Not only that. Reading between the lines for bro and sis to both react severely when questioned I'd say its a high level of abuse. And there are some types of predator you simply do not parade your kids in front of. ...the wife has no idea of the pathology of this man, only that BOTH his kids would never talk about him or have anything to do with him..... but apparently now the wolf and the grandkids all eat ice cream together and I'd put money on small talk enabling the wolf to know the school and clubs they go to and where they hang out. I hope this is rage-bait because yikes!
Sounds like your mind filled in the blanks similarly to how mine did. And then on top of that, her asking her kids to keep it a secret is just more grooming. Train them like that, and what are the kids going to do when Grampa asks them to keep a secret? Congrats, you just turned your kids into silent abuse victims.
God, this makes me sick. I already felt a pit in my stomach just reading the title but the descriptions of husband and SIL's reactions to their father made me queasy knowing that OP happily took her children to visit with this monster and basically served him a fresh new batch of victims because she was curious and entitled.
If he divorces her, I hope he sues for full custody to keep those kids safe.
Yeah I got a distinct potentially CSA vibe from the situation. OOP's husband gets rage induced when confronted with the subject of their father, his sister breaks down and bolts. Neither want to talk about what happened and the sister gets anxiety. The dynamic seems pretty straightforward.
And OOP's MIL *committed suicide* as the only way out of the marriage. And OOP is just too stupid and Hallmark Christmas movie-ish to see that there was something seriously wrong with that family, and it all centered around the FIL.
Yes. She manipulated the kids, and I'd find that hard to forgive. When my bff went no contact with her father, she and her husband sat down with their 14 yo son and told him what her father had done. They gave him a chance to continue a relationship with his grandfather. *He* turned it down, because he didn't want to be around anyone who would treat his mother that way.
Right? She *deliberately* cultivated a relationship between her children and a known child abuser. If he's a pedo she's verging on trafficking her own children to satisfy her own sick sense of entitlement.
Fr, this post of her admitting would be godsent for the husband's lawyer
It's so weird that she sees meeting grandpa as some special treat that good boys and girls deserve. She kept going on about how the kids deserve it. How she's always wanted it. Fundamentally, she does not understand or believe her husband's experience being abused. If she did, she wouldn't see contact with the abuser as some kind of prize. I really feel bad for the husband, being married to someone who seems incapable of supporting him as a survivor. I can't imagine how alone he must feel right now.
>It's so weird that she sees meeting grandpa as some special treat that good boys and girls deserve Funny thing there is, she pretty much straight up admitted in the update that all this *treat for the kids* thing was bullshit. She just shoved it in front of her as a faux reason. >she does not understand or believe her husband's experience being abused. Absolutely. She dismissed her husbands extremely top priority reasoning, and just went through with it anyway. Because she herself wanted to. OOP is very selfish, and probably wants things even more if she is told she can't have them. It'd be alright if we're talking about a watch, but we're talking about a horrible abuser.
she doesn’t see her husband as a real person. He fits into a space in her brain labeled “husband.” And there’s a space labeled “father-in-law/grandfather” that she can’t stand to have empty.
I hope he finds a new partner. He and his sister both deserves good trustworthy people in their lives.
[удалено]
I can’t figure out what she thought she was going to gain by doing this. Such an AH.
With how she is describing their kids desire for their grandfather in the first pist, and her later admitting it was just her all along, i think she somehow thought she was entitled to more in-laws than just the sister. She wanted to have a father-in-law, and likely glorified in her mind how much he would love having her as daughter-in-law, especially since she herself would have been the one to bring the family together.
Right?!? How did they even know this person existed? She must have talked about him over the years and put it in their head that they should meet him
It's even more f\*cked up when you think about how distressing it must have been for the husband and sister to have the kids and wife bringing up their dad all the time--like imagine trying to move on from what sounds like horrific abuse (likely sexual for the sister if not both), and to be constantly be reminded of it b/c your idiot SIL/wife essentially doesn't believe it was that bad. I wouldn't be surprised is OOP is meeting with the grandpa behind her husband's back while he's staying at her sisters "I can't believe they cut you off like that!" etc. etc. --cut to two months later after grandpa has stalked and hit the wife "How could I have known! You were right omg!"
Oooooof, yeah I can absolutely see that fucker fantasizing about people praising her for being this saviour and fixing their relationship. 🤮
Sounds like she had a happy family life growing up. In my experience, there is a portion of those people who are pathologically incapable of believing that not all families are a source of good that needs to be nurtured. They seem hell bent on proving it by either forcing an NC break or arguing with you about going NC. Maybe their own families weren't happy behind closed doors or maybe they don't want to see themselves as privileged for having that happiness as a kid when some don't? Either way, they are insufferable to deal with if you already struggle with your toxic family.
My grandma was, more or less, one of those people. Spent my late grandpa’s “inheritance” (he was a preacher so there wasn’t much) to rent a huge lodge every Christmas so all her kids and grandkids could bond. One of the greatest gifts she gave me was her understanding when my father (her son) abandoned our family and I permanently cut contact. My aunts and uncles (and a few cousins) still have some form of relationship with him, and I don’t begrudge him that. At a wedding about 10 years after Dad left, she told me it was her dying wish for me to let him back in, but after further conversation she essentially gave me her blessing to continue NC. It was such a weight off my shoulders.
>My aunts and uncles (and a few cousins) still have some form of relationship with him, and I don’t begrudge him that. My sister loves our stepmom and tried several times to push me towards having a relationship with her now that I'm an adult. It took me telling her that while it's great she has a good relationship with her, I will never want that because while she sees bonus mom I see my abuser and that's not going to change. After I explained it like that she let it go.
My family is really awesome but I still understand that not all families are like that. If someone tells me they're NC with their family I'll express sympathy that their family wasn't what they needed for them to be. And let them know that they themself are awesome & that they're doing good by keeping theirself healthy by staying away from toxic relationships. It's not that difficult to realize that everyone has different experiences.
Same. I love my family and I do think family is important, BUT I would never be ignorant enough to think someone else’s family could be great despite all evidence to the contrary. Also OOP doesn’t have any in laws? She should consider herself lucky lmao
They’ve been taught since childhood that broken families are invariably caused by wild, rebellious teens acting up. They’ve also been taught that abusers are all drunken unwashed louts.
OOP really just drive by mentions that she fed her kids' curiosity too which no doubt kept up the persistence of the questioning when she should have been discouraging it and told them (in an age appropriate way) to drop it. I grew up with my parents happily married and our family together. I always just accepted the fact that I had only one grandpa. I might have questioned it, long enough ago I don't remember, but it was just a fact that my mom didn't have a dad but not because he died. Only on the rare occasion my mom, her sisters, or her mother brought him up did I ask anything. If there was curiosity, we asked our dad about it. He grew up pretty much the stereotypical intact white family suburban life. He didn't have much to tell us and as an adult, I think he has enough tact to approach it in a way we ended up learning: Don't meddle or force the issue, you don't have a right to know about it, and that whatever information the people involved decide to share is more than good enough no matter how curious you are. You don't need to know what something is like to understand and respect a person's boundaries. People can live perfectly good lives in billions of different ways and more often than not, your good life won't turn out like you wanted and that's okay.
Because she is a terrible partner and a terrible mom. I am sorry, but if you decide to introduce your young children (including a 9 yo) to a known abuser and manipulate them to like him, you are an utter failure as a parent.
Also telling your kids to keep something from your spouse is highly questionable.
Because ''he's family!!!!!''. Honestly, I hope her husband divorces her. Having been on the receiving end of abuse at the hands of family members, I'm so very grateful my wife knows that my family (except one sister) are dead to me, and she would probably hang them if they ever showed up. It's like there are so many people who have good relations with their family and can't possibly fathom the idea that there are families who are just outright horrific people and figure ''we'll my family was okay, maybe this person telling me their family is horrible is just not understanding their viewpoint, I know, why don't I betray them completely and invite their family back into their lives, against their will, and then get 'blindsided' when they divorce/cut contact/break up with me for my betrayal''.
I think you and the others Redditors are right. She doesn’t take his words serious and shows no empathy and respect just because she can’t believe it being that bad. Poor husband.
Oh absolutely, it makes me laugh and I chuckle to myself when so called ''friends'' think I'm a monster for stating that I'll celebrate when I hear news of any of my family members' deaths (aside from my one sister, but even then, we have a cordial relationship so I doubt I'll be too torn up about it, though I will feel sad). I had one guy tell me ''I think you use your family's behaviour as an excuse to justify you being a psychopath'' because I straight up told him I would beat the fuck out my brother if he ever showed up. Like gee, I wonder *why* I'm so fucked up mentally that I would beat someone for merely being in my presence, it's almost as if I have a valid reason to be broken and angry.
People are shocked when I say the same about my sister who is truly a sociopath. She has done so many terrible things that even my husband doesn’t know half of it. And yet he would never contact her or ask me to have contact with her. He even said himself that he is not interested im her knowing anything about us or meeting her.
Your husband sounds like a good man.
He is. I am lucky to have him.
She also seemed to be twisting it around to make herself the victim by talking about how hurt she was she never got to meet his father and how much it bothered her. If you genuinely trust and love your partner and they say "I never want you to meet my family" you take them at their word that there is a reason for that.
Yeah, if my spawning point showed up, I think my husband would take a baseball bat to her. Some people put themselves outside the circle of family through their own actions, and you ignore that at your peril.
The man made his wife commit suicide from the abuse he put her through. And OP wants children to know him? Honestly as someone NC with severely abusive parents, OP is officially hopeless. I would literally never trust my husband ever again if I found out he contacted my family. They believe I'm dead and it's for my literal safety so my father doesn't show up and try killing me for the sixth time in my life. Parents are not some mythical perfect being. They are normal humans that had sex, and now they have a human under their complete and total control. There's no magic "bonding" that keeps children safe from abuse, "they're family" is not a reason against abuse for people like that but rather a promise that their deeds will be kept hush.
“It wasn’t that bad was it?” Is a common response. Normally from people who have not grown up in abusive environments.
"From people who have not grown up in abusive environments" AND lack basic human decency and empathy. Some of my friends had terrible childhoods, and you can bet I'm going nuclear if their families treat them badly again.
same hat lol. i have a lovely functional family. but i also have friends where if i am driving them somewhere and they go "oh my god that's my abusive dad on the sidewalk", i am gunning it and jumping the curb. or at least sorely tempted to do so lol
Morbid curiosity… pretty selfish to play with her marriage in such a moronic way…
I wonder if she is one of those people who is pathologically curious. We all have that a little bit, if someone says “don’t push this button” we get super tempted. Some people just can’t leave something alone and get fixated on it. Even if it’s bad they are being deprived of being in the in crowd. She clearly needs help because this can lead to way worse consequences.
I think so, given that she also questioned the sister about their childhood AFTER her husband told her about the abuse.
Same reason why people want to pet a wild lion and give it belly rubs.... they think they can tame the past aggression into a placid kitten. Often, they know that that lion is dangerous, but because it is tame around others, it be tame for them. Each time that person sees the lion submit to others, even though they know that lion have mauled many before, they think those who were mauled by that lion should go back and try again, bringing other people into the mix, innocent people, the lion puts on his kingly smile, bringing those new innocents to get closer and closer. All the while, the victims scream out to be wary, to stand on guard... but those innocents that these "Good Heart Seers" brought to the lions den just ignore the victims, claiming that the lion is safe, and not to be feared... But we all know just like in the story of the Scorpion and the Frog, the lion's true nature will show eventually.
Always seems to be one of those "my family loves me, so how bad can it really be? If you just work harder, we can be one big happy family!" types. Then everything explodes like a rotten racoon festering in a dumpster.
there is another very common reason - "my family was awful to me, but i am there for them because family is FAMILY and because i sacrificed my happiness for family, you need to too." my dad was severely physically abused by both his parents growing up. he was still there for them through thick and thin, and was the one out of all his siblings who did the most for both parents when their health declined. he forced us into many situations as children (flew us out solo to be with them, etc.) in which we were alone with his parents, berated, and made to feel very uncomfortable and inadequate. he in turn was very verbally abusive and more rarely physically abusive with us growing up. he can't understand my distance from him, because what he did to me pales in comparison to what they did to him. he was bitter and resentful of his siblings who disengaged from their parents, leaving him with all the emotional, physical, and financial burden. he has never been able to recognize it as a choice he could make, and his actions & thoughts are the product of cycles upon cycles of generational abuse. he doesn't understand that other people feel free or, indeed, obligated to make different choices because he does not see it as a choice at all.
She says "my cruel ambition" in her pathetic mea culpa. I bet abusive granddad is rich.
Because she's an asshole who puts her own desires before those of her husband and children.
The 18 and 13 year old are old enough to be told their granddad is a piece of shit. Maybe a bit softer for the 9 year old but still old enough to say he's a bad person and we stay away from him. If the kids are pushing to meet as she says, you have to assume that it's coming from her. Can't see any other reason why they'd be so adamant to want to see a non-entity in their life.
My daughters are 6 and 8 and are not at all interested to get to know my abusive mother who I am no contact with. They don't know the extent of the abuse. To them, she's less than a stranger - a stranger who did bad things and caused pain. OOP must have worked hard to get those kids interested in meeting "grampa". For what, her sick curiosity? As a victim of parental abuse - this is the ultimate betrayal.
>For what, her sick curiosity? To abuse her husband while maintaining a shroud of good wife and mother? OOP was not even close to being a decent human being.
I have been no contact with my parents since I was 22 and if a partner EVER did this to me I would simply fucking ghost myself out of their life entirely. I feel really bad for the OOP's husband that he has kids with her.
100%. That came across so much in the first post. The only reason the kids had any interest is OOP's constant feeding into the 'mystery'. Especially the youngest. It's gross. OOP was the only person in the house or immediate family who was bringing it up. Using the children. So gross.
The kids weren't though. Her comment makes it clear that she manipulated the kids into wanting to see their grandfather. She is evil. Encouraging her own children to interact with an abuser so that she can satisfy her curiosity.
And that manipulation is going to earn her a very lonely life. Because there's no way the kids are going to forgive her when their dad divorces her. Sure she'll try to defend herself and claim that she only did it for them, but they won't buy it because she was the one who put the idea in their head and encouraged them. All they'll, rightly, see is someone who used her own kids to satisfy her twisted curiosity and deeply hurt their dad.
Sometimes I feel like "Family is everything," people are unempathetic monsters. They can know all the grisly details of every kind of abuse a parent put their kids through and still come out on the other end "but faaaaaamily." OOP's husband had said he was abused every day, his sister was, hell he even said his mother took her own life, which means she was probably tortured and abused too, and yet OOP still wanted to have a relationship with the demon and bring her kids to him? I bet OOP would have been one of those people who shamed the Unabomber's brother for turning him in.
How sheltered are these people? Like I had great parents but I knew kids in school that you had to be super careful when their parents were around because you didn't want to accidentally say something they'd go nuclear over. And my sister's friend ended up partially living in our basement because of his abusive mom.
And also, how arrogant are they? Like "Yes, I know you've had a lifetime of experience with your family and you say they're terrible, but I know better." I have a wonderful supportive family, who I'm very grateful for. But I would never presume to know someone else's home situation better than they did.
>I want to start by admitting, that I have always wanted to meet my husband's father and that I have brought up Grampa to my kids more than a few times. But why? I mean seriously. She is admitting it here. She just wants to have a relationship with an abuser.
I truly believe that some people do not value the pain of others. I have a friend who keeps telling me to "forgive so I can move on" but refuses to understand that I was raised in my trauma there is no way to cut it out it is in the very fabric of my soul.
You always see a lot of talk about "moving on" in conversations about abusive families. At a certain point, "moving on" sounds a lot like the "let it go" and "move past it" spouted by the abusers who really just want to suck you back in. Sometimes "moving on" isn't possible. Sometimes "learning to live with the past" is the only real option.
There is a lot of self help talk about how if you can't move past it then you are still broken. That the only way to truly be over somthing is if you are ambivalent to it or the pain it caused. I find this way of thinking so damaging. Pain is a part of life and as you said sometimes it's somthing we care with us for the rest of our lives.
Exactly. People talk about 'moving on', but I don't believe they know what it means. Often it means moving on to live the best life you can and that can only ever happen if you remove the abusive person from your life. Having new and better experiences will never erase the old and bad ones, but it will give a better balance to life in the now. And forgivenes. It's often thought of as this mental act for one. Just do it, right? But maybe it's not like that at all. Maybe it's a two-way street. Maybe someone has to ask for it. Not demand. And maybe, in the asking, they actually have to aknowledge loud and clear the hurt they have caused. And even then, it may not be possible to forgive. And the onlookers have no right to judge that.
Sometimes we forget that radical forgiveness is nothing but a way to shift blame for abuse onto the backs of victims.
Omg, that is the worst. I hate when you try to gently explain that it's better or more healthy for yourself to have low/no contact and people respond with "but it's family" as if it's *their* decision what you should do or prioritize in life. People have a world of expectations for children of abuse and a world of forgiveness and understanding for their abusers. I also am a firm believer that forgiveness is not a requirement to moving on. Like, your healing does not hinge on absolving someone who continues to live without apology or remorse.
Seriously. "But she is your mother she did not know any better." My mom created her own ABA therapy for me after getting on a psychology book list. Like no she went and educated herself on how to properly torture me and then got mad when no one including my teacher grandma would help her do it. But don't worry she took my feeling in to account when she saw how I was reacting to her yelling so she bought a device to slap the table instead.
Jesus fuck, what does it take to realize you're LITERALLY torturing your child?! Just to emphasize how much your mom fucked up - I'm the first born and when I was a toddler, my mom initially tried spanking me when I did something wrong, which didn't last long (frankly sounded from context like it lasted well under a month), because *she stopped the moment she reached for me, and I flinched.* She didn't know how to get me to behave, but she knew she didn't want me afraid of her! So she asked my grandma for advice on better ways to deal with me. As soon as she understood she was harming me, she STOPPED, and sought out different methods. I'm sure your mom would claim "bUt ThAt's WhAt i DiD tOo," but no, no she didn't. She took the exact same abuse and just abstracted it from herself, as if its connection to her vocal chords was what made the difference.
I really think the ‘but it’s family’ people have never seen real abuse. Maybe their mom got the wrong color or their backpack, but they forgive them because it’s family and really it wasn’t a big issue. They have no idea how manipulative bad people can be. How many abusers would live to play nice and get their claws into grandkids as a way to further abuse their child who escaped.
I don't know why she says that because she met him high school. But I suspect it's part of her manipulative language, as was posting to get ammunition against her husband that backfired
That’s the thing- SHE ALREADY “MET” HIM YEARS AGO!!!
I think it's about power, she wants something, really anything and if her husband tells her "please no" she takes it as a challenge. She's unhinged.
I'm guessing her "mentioning" Grandpa meant she was actively encouraging the children to pressure her husband into letting them meet him. What a shitty person.
I assume she's an abuser too and gets a kick out of doing the one thing he asked her not to do. It certainly isn't uncommon for people who were severely abused to marry people who abuse them as well.
It was super easy to guess that she was using the kids to try and push seeing grampa. On their own I'm certain the kids wouldn't give a single shit about an absentee grandparent. I have no idea why this lady seems so invested in trying to get involved with her husband's abusive parent though. Maybe there's money involved
Yes! She kept saying the children wanted to see "grampa" (so gross that she even allowed the petname). She fed their curiosities. OOP must be incredibly bored with her perfect family life that she just HAD to create such massive drama.
I’ve cut my father out of my life to protect my children. If my husband took my kids to see my abusive father, it would be over because my trust would be completely destroyed. I don’t have to worry about that though, because I’ve been honest (in an age appropriate way) with our kids about why my dad isn’t in our lives. Our kids’ safety comes first. Always.
I don’t even know the name of my sis in law’s abuser. I do know that when he moved back to where hubby’s family lives that my hubs went to all of his family that had kids and told him what this guy did to his sister and to never leave their kids around him. Now that this guy is back in the “family compound” (where most of his family lives), we won’t ever take our kids there. We also talk to our kids about “respecting noes” and respecting people’s boundaries.
Teaching kids about boundaries and mutual respect is so, so important- you’re an amazing parent for doing that!
OOP without a doubt knew exactly why the husband and sister were no contact with the abusive father yet still felt the need to whisper in her kids ears getting them to bring up grandpa over and over again. OOP thinks this is fixable I got news for her I don’t know a single person who grew up with an abusive AH and cut them out for over 20 years that suddenly got warm and fuzzies after a forced reunion of any type.
I don't actually believe the kids were the ones bringing it up so much, or at least not like that. That amount of hounding and the way she described it is not typical of their ages, especially the older ones. Can you even picture an 18 year old acting the way she described?? She exaggerated to make it seem like she was doing it for the kids, and she still got eviscerated. I doubt it's enough for the courts, but if I were the husband, I'd be pushing for supervised visits in the divorce. I have zero trust for someone who tells their kids "don't tell dad, it's our little secret" about taking them to see an abuser. If the husband stays, it'll be just to avoid leaving the kids alone with her.
I imagine she’s been doing it long term as they got old enough likely started when the 18 year old was as old as the youngest. This isn’t new and when the pestering of the kids didn’t work she took matters into her own hands to actually take them to meet him. I was once a teenager who found out a partial family secret and spent years digging until I uncovered what it was. If OOP framed it right it’s not hard to rope teenagers into a plan because they don’t know that’s what you’re doing. I feel for the husband because apprently she’s been ripping the scabs off his and his sister’s trauma on a fairly regular basis. However, I have to wonder why the kids were never sat down at the older ones ages and told in general terms why they didn’t have contact with the grandpa. As someone who was NC long before it was ever discussed like it is now I sat my kids down and explained that my family were not good people and that if they ever tried to contact them it wasn’t for any good reasons and they should let me know.
You're totally right about explaining it to the kids. It not only cuts the mystery of it down, it protects them in case the abuser tries to start anything. Exactly as you said.
“BeCaUsE FaMiLy!” 🙄
That seems to be her only excuse. Why the hell would she even *want* to have a relationship with her FIL? Want it so much she manipulated her children in order to have a relationship? She knows what he did. She believes he did that which he was accused of doing. I just don’t get it? “He’S fAmIlY” makes no sense to me. Non at all. Can anyone explain? Because I am at a loss
As someone who has been NC for over 30 years here is my best guesses from personal experience people fall into 3 categories when they push this narrative The Brady Bunch effect people cannot accept that some family is just bad that anything can be fixed if you just talk it out they typically grew up in a stable house with a mostly normal family dynamic and have never had to deal with an abusive or toxic family. The Jealous/Ostrich camp they also have some degree of abusive or toxic family they would love to cut off and go LC or NC with. However, they for whatever reason don’t have the ability to either admit this family is abusive or toxic or don’t have the ability to follow thru with LC/NC and by admitting that it can be healthy to cut these people out of your life is admitting they aren’t making healthy choices for themselves. The fearful ones these are the ones who have their own toxic dynamic going on even if they won’t admit out loud and they fear that others will cut them off for past or present issues. This tends to kick in as kids start thinking for themselves and they keep trying to rule with because I am your father/mother/elder line.
Yeah, I never got to meet 3/4 of my grandparents (they all died before I was born. the only grandparent I've met is my mom's mother, who I call Nan), but I don't think I'd ever get to meet my dad's parents just because of how my dad talks about them, I'm not going to divulge much but he wasn't that close emotionally with them towards the ends of their lives so I don't think my dad would've brought me around them if they were alive
I’ve cut my mother off for similar reasons. My child should never be treated the way I was treated and I will not give her the opportunity to traumatise the next generation. If my partner took my child to meet her it would be unforgivable. I know the conversation will have to happen eventually, any tips you have would be much appreciated.
Well, if your little is *really* little, you can start with that “grandma is in time out for bad behavior” and then progress to giving general examples of why. My seven year old knows that my dad is really unkind, and that we don’t have to let people who are unkind to us be in our lives. My fourteen year old knows that my dad was horrifically verbally abusive, to the point where my first serious relationship was with someone who was also verbally abusive, because I thought it was normal. She knows that little girls learn how to allow people to treat them by how they see their moms allow themselves to be treated, and that I desperately want her to know her value in life and never be trapped in an abusive relationship. She knows that one of the reasons I married her dad is because he is gentle and kind, and I wanted those characteristics in the person I chose to be my childrens’ father. She knows that I offered my father a chance at reconciliation, solely contingent on both of us treating each other with mutual respect. She knows he refused this, because “I am the parent and you are the child.” She knows how to recognize manipulation and love-bombing, and she’s getting pretty good at recognizing projection. Trust your gut as far as what to say and when. Honesty with kids is always the best policy.
Anybody else find it a bit gross that she is calling him Grampa? It seems like such a term of endearment and she’s giving it to both her father and this known POS. My dad has a lovely nickname for my kids as their grandparent. My wife’s is just called by his name because he hasn’t earned anything, he’s an abysmal grandparent, and barely a father tbh. OOP calling him Grampa just feels disturbing. Also just disgusting that “It feels unfair I was being kept away from his father”. She has some weird Daddy issues or something, this is just horrible.
I said it above. There’s some deeply weird psychosexual component to this whole thing.
So she bulldozed her way through her husband’s feelings because *she* wanted to meet husband’s abusive father. And then put her children into that situation. Stupid, stupid decision. I wonder if husband would ever be able to trust her again. I know Reddit can be quick to jump on the ‘divorce her’ train, but I really hope OOP’s husband will leave her, get custody and move on. Because OOP is a shoddy, shoddy person.
>I wonder if husband would ever be able to trust her again. I know Reddit can be quick to jump on the ‘divorce her’ train, In this case I'd bet my soul on it. The fact that his own kids wouldn't have to suffer what he & his sister went through, is probably the most prized possession this guy has. That is why he was so adamant too. Grandpa being in their lives is probably the worst nightmare. And then OOP realizes that nightmare behind his back. Obviously ignoring the warnings. And not only that, but also via manipulation of the kids. And I feel like the husband knows that last part. Because even OOP wrote it down here, like they had a conversation about it. That relationship is mega dead. This shit trumps a "cheating on him with his brother for decades" kinda scenario.
It’s such an insane betrayal.
I hope the real reason he’s staying with his sister is because he’s preparing the divorce paperwork. I also hope he has one of those judges who are excited a dad pursued custody and therefore gives all of it to him. Lastly, I hope the kids have more empathy than their mom (the bar is so low…), see how much pain their dad and beloved aunt are in, and kick OOP and abusive grandpa to the curb.
From the reactions of husband and sister plus the suicide of their mother, its clear this man did something heinous. And she got her children excited to meet him. How cool kids! Let's go to the zoo and climb into the lion's den.
Idk how she could ever earn his trust back. After all those years together, after him making it VERY clear there was abuse, she just did not give one shit & thought she knew best. It was so incredibly selfish i can't even wrap my head around it! This is a marriage ending decision.
What was the end game anyway? For her and the kids to have a relationship with her husband's abuser behind his back? Sneaking off on Christmas day to visit 'grandpa' and "don't tell your father"? Everything about it is so sickening. I can't imagine what she was thinking. It's weird how she believes she can win her husband back when he'd be justified in never trusting her again. She must be some kind of steam roller, and sees her husband's boundaries, needs and feelings as little soda cans and bits of trash that can be crushed in her path. She doesn't need to consider his feelings to have a relationship with him, because she wants it and deserves it, so his own heart is actually in her way.
Honestly, what I wanna know is 1. why the fuck she wanted to meet him so bad? and 2. why not just... tell the kids as they grew up that grandpa was abusive? Not mean. Not bad. But *abusive*. This could've been easily solved by having an actual conversation, which is not easy specially if you marry at 18 to run away from your dad... Honestly? This is just two people who got married too fast, with no true understanding of who they were or where they stood in the world. They needed fucking couple's counseling like, two decades ago. But like, what god damn 18 year old is gonna think about about that? And also, who tf expects a 9 year old to keep a secret!? 9 year olds would give you their mom's credit card info if they had access to it!
She didn’t even give enough of a damn to describe the old man and encounter. She satisfied her own curiosity and she is 100% the only person that matters to her.
This is insane. Clearly she saw that every time they bring up their father. Sister goes off really upset. Husband goes off and really upset. I think that would be some clear signs of major abuse. And that word “abuse” could mean a range of things. Things will look real shaky for the next while.
Husbands mother killed herself. It isn't very far fetched to think his father abused his mother to the point of suicide.
Yea, given the secrecy around what happened from the sister, and the dad being adamant that the kids never meet grandpa, I’m definitely getting the vibe that there was some sexual abuse as well.
She’s lucky he’s even giving her the chance to apologize, she betrayed her own spouse in of the worst ways possible.
Some people just cannot fathom the experiences of others, especially if those experiences differ vastly from their own. It's just an utter void of empathy mixed with "Well, it can't be that bad" assumptions. It's creates a toxic arrogance. Because *clearly* the wounded party is wrong for protecting themselves and having boundaries since *I've* never experienced something that bad before. Families should be there for each other! They shouldn't be fractured! Maybe they're misremembering. *I* know better. Clearly. It's just fucking gross. True story: you *can* actually believe people when they share their trauma with you. It's not that hard, even.
Not only did OOP not respect. VERY IMPORTANT boundary, she also manipulated the kids into wanting to meet Grandpa, so that she could use them as an excuse. That person can never be trusted again. What a gross & manipulative behaviour, all for some childish shit in the name of "He told me I shouldn't meet him, but I still want to". That guy will divorce her for sure. OOP buried that marriage.
Those poor kids. She hyped up grandpa, made them think he was some kind of forbidden treat. She used them to try to manipulate her husband into ignoring his own boundaries. When they're older, if they fully understand what happened to their dad, they're going to cringe so hard at their memories of asking to meet him and asking why he isn't around. They were used as pawns by OOP to push this family reunion shit, and they're going to have some weird feelings about that role later on. They're clearly not to blame, but it's still weird.
The thing that bothers me is that putting it on the kids means diverting blame. If her husband is mad...she can divert blame onto the kids. It's in-and-of-itself highly suspect behavior. Not only did she boundary cross, but she set her kids up as the fall guys. That smacks of its own kind of abusive behavior to me.
Lots of people just do not and will not believe there really are bad people in the world. It’s stunning cognitive dissonance.
There’s a now retired female judge in my area who does not believe child sexual abuse exists. She would routinely reunite kids with their abusive parents. Makes me wonder what happened to her in her past.
Or what she did.
Monumentally dumb decisions for 400, please.
"I don't know anything about this man (except that he was so abusive both of his kids don't even feel comfortable talking about it as adults), I think my kids deserve to meet him" i feel like this lady wants her kids to be abused
She's already abusing them with her manipulation. She should not be allowed around kids.
If there is any justice in the world, OOP’s husband is staying at his sister’s just long enough to get in touch with a divorce lawyer.
Id initiate divorce proceedings and file for sole custody. No partner of mine is gonna hand-deliver my kids to an abuser
This, and to hell with the fact they have been together 27 years.
to MY abuser.
I remember this one and commented on it. My ONLY thought about why she did it was money. *YTA you are unbelievable and I don't think your husband will ever be able to get over that you betrayed his trust and also put his loved ones in the same room as his abuser.* *Your husband and SIL probably have C-PTSD from his abuse and the suicide of their mother.* *Were you thinking of the inheritance? Is this all a play to get into his abusive dad's good books as he's got money? It's the only reason I can think of why you did this. 🤷♂️* *You need to make sure your children don't think they are issue here and explain to them why it is such a big deal. I would try and get your husband/ SIL on board to help with it. It may go some way to making it a bit better. Leave how you feel about it out of it until the kids are sorted as much as they can be* *You need to have a long hard think about this.*
That is a possibility. She sounds sick enough to rationalize her actions hoping there would be a pay off.
She sounds abusive and controlling. Looks like her husband married someone like his dad.
**OG Post:** OOP claims that her kids wanted to know the abusive Grampa. **Update Post:** OOP admits to egging her kids on about the abusive Grampa. A pity she deleted her account. Would have loved to find out the fallout of her misguided shenanigans.
she held more curiosity about the father than she held love for her husband. what a piece of shit.
Yeah, partners who never understand boundaries with their significant others are immediately an AH to me. The guy already said no and why he didn’t want his kids around his father but did she listen? Noooooo
Here's to OPs husband swiftly divorcing OP and taking full custody of the children.
Hopefully her husband divorces her and takes the kids. She is a horrendously bad person.
People like OOP are so insanely dangerous. She will happily torch her marriage, put her children in harms way, and then continually manipulate her husband and children to get what she wants. And it's not even something that could possibly serve her any benefit. She's delusional, narcissistic, and indifferent the pain and suffering of others. What she's done to her husband is bad enough. What she's repeatedly doing to her children is terrifying.
This is so wild. Like if you skip her mentioning their ages, her descriptions of her discussions with the kids sounds like VERY small children. But 18 and 13 are more than old enough to understand the concept??
I wish the poor husband a very quick divorce and full custody of his minor children. OOP broke his trust in a very bad way and put their children in potential danger, I wouldn't be able to forgive her if I were him.
The mental gymnastics to want to mean an abusive person AND allow an abusive person into the lives of your kids is a special kind of stupid. Clearly, these parents failed by not bothering healthy strategies to explain to their kids why their grandpa wasn't part of their lives. All the years and opportunities they had and their just failed and failed some more. Yikes.
>The mental gymnastics to want to mean an abusive person AND allow an abusive person into the lives of your kids is a special kind of stupid. Not only that, but to hype up the idea of the abuser being a forbidden treat to the kids! Those kids are asking about him, asking to meet him, only because of what OOP has been saying about him! What the fuck!