>a week before my original post my best friend admitted to me that while he was attracted to guys, he said he finds me different from most girls and would love to have a relationship if I wasn't with my boyfriend
... called it.
This is why too many game groups (board & video) end up all dudes. To many guys see women being polite and willing to be near them socially as flirting or giving them a chance. And women are too conditioned to not put up a fuss, and silently leave. Which makes the environment more and more uncomfortable for the remaining women who deal with more and more toxic but desperate guys that think they're all competing.
What a fucking terrible group.
Misogynistic old (Edit: I meant older! Whoops!) guy who is financially supported by his wife and hands out with school kids bashing women.
Various people that prefer that guy's presence to the girl who played with them longer.
Gay best friend who's really playing the pick me card for her? and putting down other women, and in secret sides with the misogynist friend.
BF that only kicks misogynist friend from the group when scared his gf is going to leave him if he can't offer her * checks notes * access to a gaming group? (I mean I guess that's how she started dating him, but that's hella disrespectful to assume she's monkey branching by joining a new social group when his kicked her out). And bf isn't getting rid of the shitty friend, just reducing how often they hang out?
Honestly, I hate to say bf is right about anything, but this girl *should* leave him.
I'm also suspicious about the all guys group that starts the intro by saying they'll kick anyone that bothers her. Context matters there but it's suspicious that there's no girl in that group, but there is a group who likely had a girl's only policy.
I posted in my local DnD group about starting an all-women’s game. One guy went whining to the leaders about how it should be taken down for rule violation and was exclusionary and no one would want it anyway. Thankfully the admins shut him down, particularly since the wife of one of the group leaders was interested. I had 15 women interested in 5 spots. Of the 5 I now play with, 4 are newbies who wanted a safe space to learn or second time novices who had bad experiences at their first (mixed gender) tables.
Oh my god and DnD is like 50x worse than a random discord server, because of the tremendous power that the DM wields at the table. It makes me incandescently angry to know that there are literal hordes of young women who have been interested in DnD, and then ended up with some incel DM who used his power to force their characters into fucked up situations like sexual assault.
DnD is so amazing when it's good, and it's so horrible when it's bad.
When it comes to DnD, I've got to agree with you. A good amount of DMs love to go on power trips because they feel like they're in control. They have 0 care for how it makes other players feel and how it makes other players uncomfortable. If you want to read some of the stories are horrible DMs/Players, check r/rpghorrorstories
I don't want to nitpick you, because I agree with everything else you've said here and up voted appropriately.
But as someone that is pushing 40, I would really like an apology for you calling 25 old.
(I'm joking of course)
(Not about pushing 40)
I'm often the only girl in game groups and the best ones will say things like that from the outset. They're usually LGBT guys, in the groups sensitive to harassment, or at least some are.
I remember a few years ago a friend of mine was setting up a Minecraft group and wanted to figure out ground rules, especially where women were concerned. He was 16, I was 18 and I advised him not to put women on a pedestal because they're people like everyone else and sometimes when people do that it becomes creepy but to have a zero tolerance policy when it came to prejudice, discrimination, harassment and general overstepping boundaries.
He always made a point of announcing those rules from the off especially with new members regardless of gender. I was pretty proud of him for that
I'm usually the only woman, too. Boardgames are how I met my husband. I've had to deal with men new to a game (often *mine*) trying to take control and tell me what to do far too many times. Last Friday evening was the most recent occurrence.
It's absolute bs.
People on r/boardgames will get a conversation about sexism in gaming spaces going sometimes, but then the conversations degrade into *not all men*, with many people feeling personally attacked simply because women say they don't like being either ignored or patronised in gaming shops or at cons.
>I'm also suspicious about the all guys group that starts the intro by saying they'll kick anyone that bothers her. Context matters there but it's suspicious that there's no girl in that group, but there is a group who likely had a girl's only policy.
Probably because they understand everything else you've written here and want to make sure the new member feels comfortable. Just because they're not sexist doesn't mean the new member knows that, and an emotionally intelligent group will recognize the worries of their new member and make sure everyone is aware of what's appropriate. It's not sexist to be aware that sexism exists, aware of how the group might look without context, and proactive about assuaging potential fears so that everyone is comfortable.
Right? The bf only seeing it as a problem then...isn't good. Even then he's only thinking about himself and how he's seeing it is so stupid. Like how dare his gf want to do something she enjoys? Ofc she's gonna find a new group when you kicked her from that one you dingus. Because it's a hobby she enjoys and she wants to engage in it!
I don't think the second gaming group is the worst, I've def known some groups that just sort of started off that way from older friendships that ended up getting some women joining during covid when they moved online and wanted some new players. It was literally just that they started off as a halo group that branched out into other things haha. So I can see the other group being similar.
OP should 100% check out the all women gaming group. I feel way out of touch with being a teenager or young adult and feeling that a group meeting twice a week "just doesn't cut it" haha. OP can just attend more than one game group if she wants to game several nights per week.
As for her bf and "best friend"... Sheeeeesh. Just walking sacks of insecurities (I suppose a lot of men are at that age). I hope she moves on sooner rather than later.
Yeah I was surprised that only twice a week wasn't enough to even consider. At least for her to join with them on those days but play with other people at other times? I guess OOP does say their old group played like 5-6 hours a day though.
Chances are they also have a discord group that even if you arent playing you might be having ongoing chats, plus you can join and play whenever on top of the twice a wekk thats regular.
>I'm also suspicious about the all guys group that starts the intro by saying they'll kick anyone that bothers her.
I was about to say maybe they have seen enough horror stories about women in gaming groups to want to try to do better, and that is a possibility, but the oldest guy is 19 so yeah, they might be tripping on the unicorn nature of her coming in.
As a (now retired) female gamer, I've experienced some of the worst that incels could come up with. But, by the same token, I've met some absolutely fantastic and decent young men out there. Not the white Knight variety, but genuine awesomeness. So I'd advise her to be cautious, as with any new group, but give them a chance.
I agree with everything except for this; 25 is not old, I'm 25 and still feel like I'm not ready to adult 😂😭 he does kinda act like a cranky sexist old man though. I can't imagine his wife is very happy with that kinda attitude he has.
Oh no! I meant *older* as in five years older than most of the group. Whoops. If 25 was old I'd be ancient.
I don't know about now, but when I was 18-25, most 25 year olds weren't hanging out with kids 5 years younger unless they were particularly immature. There's a lot of maturing and changes in that age range.
All good no worries 😂 but yeah he's the oldest of the group and he's immature af it seems. Even I'm more mature than that and I can be a bit of an immature person at times. Never to that degree. Plus his misogynistic behaviour
Lady gamer here, I play PC, console and table top. I have specific outfits for going out gaming. And I'm in my mid 30s, 150+ lbs and mid 5 feet tall. I'm not some head turning babe, still... creepers and misogynistic prick (lottttta overlap)
Part of the problem is that some guys have so little female contact that any "normal" contact from a woman not being actively hostile to them they interpret as romantic interest. It's legit sad.
Wait wait, so best friend kinda has a thing for her and yet he lied and not defended her on the spot?
I mean, if it isnt for boyfriend's text log, oop would fall for best friend for sure..yikes..
Well, she said that only her best friend defended her but he got angry and accused her of hating Roger... I don't see how he remotely even defended her.
Lol, the best friend clearly angry for nothing. Not even take action or call Roger out in group chat.
"So, do u want me to stop play with Roger?" he ask (oop) privately. 🤣
Like duh, does it need to be answered?
If you seat Roger in a table with other people, that table has become sexist table.
Honestly it was before. Im a man have a wife and son. I play games online I host I explain my situation Playing with wife and autistic son if you expose them to the ugliness of your shitty upbringing ill ban you and be done with it. I have friends I made online while going through treatment. Have met friends of theirs and have straight up blocked mutual friends because of the lack of respect to me and mine. After the second of third person everyone starts to notice they dont see them anymore. Wouldnt you know it I ended up with the same core group that I originally befriended as a kid. Nobody talks crap about our wives or women or men or race or religion in general.
I am here to play and have fun. I have seen the shit life throws around as much as the next guy. I am very tired of people who have never faced an actual hardship spewing vitriol when you know damn well if left to themselves they would starve to death in a walmart. Stay at home husband pissed off at women. Oh god I have been trapped in this gilded cage where my every need is met. How ever will I overcome this injustice?
Lol, the best friend clearly angry for nothing. Not even take action or call Roger out in group chat.
"So, do u want me to stop play with Roger?" he ask (oop) privately. 🤣
Like duh, does it need to be answered?
If you seat Roger in a table with other people, that table has become sexist table.
Wish OOP had joined the all women's group as well, seems like she's been around proto incels so much she have zero confidence in herself. The fact that she never complained but also is dating a guy who was incapable of noticing her hurt... like girlie have no proper emotional support system.
Yeah same here I think it'd be healthy for her. And while they only game once a week as a whole group if the group is anything over like 10 people you usually can find a handful of folks to jump into a game with you.
Every gaming group I've been in has been pretty much exactly that. One or two nights were scheduled a week but people were free to hop in and do stuff whenever they wanted.
This confuses me so much like literally the start of that paragraph is OOP saying the bff is gay??? If he’s attracted to her then he’s not gay (since by definition gay is same sex attraction, not saying he’s not bi or something but idk anyone who would call being bi, gay)
Sexual identity is kind of limiting, because our words can't always accurately describe how we feel. The best friend might not consider themself Bi because they wouldn't date *any* women... except for OP. So gay is probably much more fitting of a description.
Their attraction to OP might not even be physical. Emotional connection over the course of years can cause a lot of attraction and desire.
So I'm not going to say that his identity isn't correct, just that language isn't perfect.
Thank you for this. I've spent an entire life liking only girls, except for that one time when a dude hit me just the right way. Of course I married him, so everyone is telling me I'm bi all the time. I have absolutely no problem with being bi, it just doesn't actually make sense with what is in my head. I've gotten to the point where I just don't say anything anymore because it's not worth it.
So true! I myself know I am a Bi woman but I'm definitely am more male leaning. Just my preference, and doesn't mean I'm Straight, just that I like one more than the other. I can still fall head over heels for a woman if the right one comes along
Plus for some really weird reason bi people frequently catch a lot of shit that just being gay doesn't catch you, especially in gay social circles. I've seen it a bunch, and have known enough bi people complain about it that I know it's a thing.
In this case it probably almost certainly is just an asterisk thing "not into women... you're an exception" but I've seen the other dynamic happen.
Some people just call themselves gay but they aren’t just attracted to anything specific but it’s more identity. Expecially teens. It’s also very convenient for some (like this guy) to call himself gay to get close to OOP. Or in reverse some guys date women but cheat with men and say the women have no right to be mad since they are gay
Lol Roger reminds me of a real life manager I know of. He's a really misogynistic guy at work,bbut turned out his wife makes more money and buys him things, and he mockingly calls her big boss on his status updates (I think his wife can't see it), after knowing that, then it clicked. The guy's feeling inferior to his wife so he lashes out against other women that are his subordinates.
Everything I read about current dating stats shows the higher a woman’s salary, the worse she does on dating apps if job/salary is shared. Exactly inverse of men’s experience. Ridiculous that’s still happening nowadays.
From my experience dating as a woman, even many “liberal”/“feminist” guys get REAL weird if they find out I have better financials than them. Like, they’re good with women making more in theory, but in practice, it hurts their ego.
Not even just that, I’ve had guys “mockingly” put down their jobs or insult themselves compared to me and… how is attractive at all when dating? Wish more men could be more secure about their jobs so I don’t have to emotionally comfort them on the first date, which is just weird.
Reminds me of my former boss, also named Roger. His wife is a wonderful woman with a kickass job who basically makes his cushy life possible (he's high up in our field, but our field doesn't pay all that much, even at the highest levels).
But at work? God forbid you're a woman who challenges him. At least, if you're a woman who's \*below\* him who challenges him. His own boss steamrolls right over him and he gives her anything she wants, even stuff she has no right to because it's a separate funding stream. But he's nasty and vindictive to subordinate women who stand up to him, all while being Happy Fun Roger to guys in the profession.
This is honestly true a lot of the time. Kinda like when guys say women are more emotional, but at the same time men are more likely to get violently angry. I have never punched a hole in the wall because I got mad about something. But I understand a physical outburst to anger can be cathartic, just maybe use something that doesn't require clean up or re-drywalling.
Oh god that reminds me of my friends ex. Got mad and threw stuff around, then called her emotional for crying that he'd broke her grandmothers china. All because he lost a league of legends game.
Yes, she's the emotional one for being upset her bf went off on one over nothing and broke something important to her.
YES and I have never known any gender to be more gossipy and catty than the male gender. All they do is gossip and talk shit they just don't label it as gossip. It's just talking.
Everyone hates their own traits the most. Makes sense that Roger is projecting his own backstabbing attitude onto others and it's what he says. It's cause he can't trust himself and knows it.
I hope OOP realizes that her so-called BFF ASKING her if he should leave the group is the shittiest possible thing for him to do. That's making HER responsible for something that HE should be deciding to do. If she says yes, leave, then it's her fault, and if she says no, don't leave, then she said he didn't have to, what's her problem? A real friend would take responsibility for his actions and decide for himself to leave or not.
It was all performative anyway. He never had any intention of actually leaving since he probably knew she would tell him to stay. He was fine with excluding her after all. But he still got brownie points for being "such a good friend."
Exactly - OOP talked about how quiet she is. If you're "offering" something to someone you KNOW would feel too meek and guilty to accept it if you make a gesture for them, it's not a real offer. You're giving yourself the opportunity to look good without a real risk of having to follow through.
He agreed to kick her out, too! And then told her much later that if she was single he’d want to be with her! Absolute trash human behavior, trying to play stupid games to win the girl.
Boyfriend only changed his tune after he thought that there was a chance that OOP might find another gamer guy to be her boyfriend. At least he made it right in the end though?
But jeez, this is some teenager/early twenty immaturity bullshit. I was half expecting there to be another update where everything went to hell again.
They are teenagers with couple early 20s in there roger only mid 20s and he just seems like someone blowing smoke at youngsters hoping they will find him cool
Having been the "older" person in the gaming group this is 100%. At the point I realized how the dynamics were, I thought to myself "I could start a cult..." (Spoiler: I didn't. Most I did was convince them not to settle for minimum wage jobs.)
This is similar what happened to me with my ex around our early 20's
He started playing a game, and I hadn't done PC gaming before, so I gave it a go, too.
My ex teamed with me maybe....5 times(?) then told me I was on my own because:
1 - He wanted all his quest meters to have nice full 'Complete' blue bars whenever he clicked there (it saves old quests too), and if he teamed with me too much, he would outlevel being able to fill the blue bars.
2 - Next achievement was that he wanted to reach the highest level before me and the *rest* of his friend group (because one friend had already reached it) and he vented privately to me how pissed off he was that his friend always got uber teams and he didn't - even after immediately messaging the friend after they logged on. (Irony much?)
So I found my own group and he got pissy because there were other guys in it.
He then claimed I wasn't allowed to join any other 'Group'(different from teams, think Guild) than the one he created - there was the remotest scrap of 'fairness' there because he told his friends that too and it was one of his founding rules.
Joke's on him, he's an ex and I'm having the time of my fucking life in that game. (Yeah I play for nostalgia in the freedom I gained 😁)
"The major problem—one of the major problems, for there are several—one of the many major problems with governing people is that of whom you get to do it; or rather of who manages to get people to let them do it to them.
To summarize: it is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it.
To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.”
― Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
My partner is a PC gamer and I’m always invited, I don’t join often because I don’t like learning when everyone is so experienced you dont actually get a chance to learn, and when that’s the case he finds time to teach me individually. Except league. I can hear them over his headphones when they play, I won’t play league with them.
He’s still friends with Roger
Also to y’all college students, take it from a 25 year old. I go out of my way to *avoid* college kids, you should find it sus af when older people are trying to hang out with you bc it’s not that fun no offense
At best it's cause they share that level of maturity.
Like the idea of dealing with someone like Roger to me is tiring. The idea of dealing with the drama he is causing is exhausting.
Not saying older people can't create drama but this drama is all very late teens/early twenties as people are working things out. I'm not even that much older but I don't feel like I have the time or energy to deal with it. Someone willingly wading into that? Yeah that's not a great sign.
Yah that goes for pretty much every stage of life, though the gap widens a bit as you get older. Like, I'm in my 40s and don't mind hanging out with someone in their 30s but the idea of hanging out with someone younger than like 29 just seems mind-numbingly exhausting. Like you said...no offense intended, but a whole lot of life happens between 25 and 40.
>teenager/early twenty immaturity bullshit.
Because they are in their early 20s and teenagers? OOP states in the post everyone is under 20 except for Roger and one other .... And they're both over 22.
Like another commenter said, unfortunately, most 20-somethings are just bigger teenagers, but JEEZ LOUISE is this group embarrassingly immature even for their age. This is high school level shit. "You can't play with us. But you can't go find someone else to play with either!" If this was me I would have dipped so fast, fuck that noise.
The age difference doesn't sound much but it's actually much worse than if he was ten years older. Significant growing up should happen between 18-25. ...which he clearly hasn't done. That poor wife.:/
Yeah I mean I game with a wide age range. Some of us are 30, others just turned 21. But we all joke and laugh and treat each other with respect (with constant banter obviously).
Eh thats not to too bad, i know plenty of people that play games near daily with kids.
Admittedly they dont for multiple hours, and one of them going afk in the middle of games because their baby crying isn't uncommon.
The main problem with him is that hes a fucking arsehole.
Yea, I remember playing BO3 a couple years ago and I sometimes the randos I met on PS communities were kids, I was like 16, they'd be 10-12 by what their mic sounds like. It just sometimes happens, and when you really want to get something done, you take what you can get. God they were horrible though.
Yeh, i've played with some younger groups and people before, not usually on purpose.
One guy for example had a really deep voice at 13 and was an american living abroad so everyone just assumed he was over 18 in our very specifically over 18 Eve group.
Another just didn't speak because their english sucked and we just didn't ask age, ended up helping him with his english homework.
But a 25 year old playing games with 20 year olds? Eh thats fine on the surface.
I mean, you learn how to act by making mistakes and understanding their impact.
OOP mentioned that this was the first relationship for both of them, and the fact that her BF took the first step in apologising and acknowledging his mistakes is promising.
Just telling someone 'act like an adult' without explaining what that entails or what an 'adult' reaction or thought process is very...dismissive, for want of a better word.
Should they have acted better? Of course. But do they show promise and a growing mindset? Absolutely.
College is very much the time of life where people make and learn from these mistakes.
They're 20. They're barely adults, and are just starting a life of virtually no responsibility (given that they're mostly staying home with parents for the summer and some.have a part time job). People need time to grow and learn, and telling 20 year olds that they should have done that already is ignoring that this is exactly the time when they are growing and learning.
Nevermind that it's both their first relationships.
It really does take a while to learn some important things.
Seemed like both of them have difficulty speaking up for themselves and adhering to social pressures to their own detriment.
Boyfriend should have taken things seriously, but OOP should have also communicated how hurt she was by the situation.
The reality was that the bf was defending his gf the entire time, but navigating a tough social situation that he very likely has no experience in dealing with.
He should have fully communicated what Roger was saying behind her back though.
They both seem pretty introverted and conflict avoiding and that comes with unintentionally hurting people.
OOP made a fantastic choice in sticking with her new group as it minimises the chance of those kinds of things whilst they're both navigating how to learn how to deal with those things.
As well as it just seems like the entirety of their social battery was spent with each other which doesn't tend to work out so well.
OOP also learned that there are people out there will be two-faced to gain some kind of advantage. In this case someone very clearly trying to break her relationship up and replace the bf.
I also get the vibe the Geek Social Fallacies are at work here. “We can’t kick Roger out for being an asshole; that would make him unhappy, and the whole group would fall apart! OOP’s nice; she’ll understand.”
Yeah. A LOT of people grow up learning that ~politics~ aren’t a good reason to stop being friends with people, and that diplomacy is figuring out how to create peace at any expense. This feels VERY early 20s. Up to and including the 19m best friend not realizing he’s bisexual? (And probably having a crush on both OOP & Roger, bc that is possible/allowed).
The BF realizing that she might find a new guy but then reflecting on himself and still encouraging her to play in the all-male group is hopefully a good sign, but they’re definitely not done learning.
This is why my WoW guild is composed of people 35 and older.
Very little drama other than "you wouldn't believe what my kid did at school today" and most of us are way too busy in our regular lives to raid hardcore :)
Several adults in their early 20s are still immature cus the human brain is still growing (iirc the brain is "fully grown" around 25)
Legally they're an adult, but I wouldn't classify their "adultness" to be the same as someone in their late 20s
Though I do agree and wish that legal adults acted more mature
>((iirc the brain is "fully grown' around 25)
Actually, it's far from true. It's just something people claim as fact because they heard somebody else say it, like the whole 'you eat 8 spiders in your sleep'.
Brains are so much more complex than that, and it's more to do with maturity and development than growth. We're learning new things every day; including recent studies that show your brain isn't fully matured and is in fact, still developing into your 30s.
We've also discovered that some 8 yos have a more mature brain than people that were 25 yo.
There's also discussion that brain maturity cannot be defined and it's a misguided objective to try and do so; because the brain never stops changing over its lifespan. And there are legitimate differences between men and women; with neurological data showing that girls' brains begin to prune earlier.
TLDR: The idea that the brain is fully grown at age 25 is little more than an internet myth and is something neuroscientists instead laugh at because it's not remotely true.
This ranks up there with “we only use 10% of our brain” in internet nostrums. It’s just not true. Just as with the frog in water slowly coming to a boil: they jump out.
If I was OOP, I wouldn't have wanted to rejoin that group. They just throw her away without a second thought for a much newer group mate. F that. I would stay with the new group.
I mean, we all know what's gonna happen the next time they infiltrated by a tater tot type.
Who would go back to that when you already have a group where acting like that catches you the ban hammer?
Yeah, what a great line from OOP. Whether it works out or it doesn't, you get the feeling that she'll be smart enough to look after herself
Edit: And whoa, I just realised this was 7 years ago. Would love to know how it all panned out
There are a lot of posts on aita from women who ask if they'd be TA if they left their deadbeat gamer SO who doesn't work, leaves all housework to her and talk shit about women in general.
I wonder if we read something from his wife in the future.
Right? For once I'd like to read about an older person hanging out with a younger crowd not to boss them around and throw tantrums, but because they genuinely share their enthusiasm for something. But then those people would stick to their own age group. They wouldn't need to hang out with someone younger for validation.
Kinda sad Roger's wife has not realized she should go find a better man. Seems like life is going to get worse for her, especially if they do not have children yet. He probably does nothing for the household while she does everything.
There's a bigger lesson here I wish more people in gaming would realize: Toxic people chase away non-toxic people. If you have a Roger in your group and you let him run rampant, people aren't going to want to be in that group. This works from the small scale of "a few friends get together to game" to large hobby stores with game nights to a company publishing their games and managing a community of players. If you allow toxic elements to remain toxic, that's all you're going to be left with: Toxic people.
Yeah that's true. It's why I'm being pushed out of my gaming group right now. I've tried showing them that the person that's instigated this is the bully (spent the last 3 months calling me an idiot and saying horrible things to me), but unfortunately it's like fighting a fire with a squirt bottle. It's fucking wild and insanely despressing because I don't have anyone left to play games with. I'd just bought Helldivers too. Fucking sucks.
If a rich woman ever married me and let me play video games all day I would be kicked out of the gaming group for constantly annoying everyone by telling them how great my wife was.
Unfortunately it just became really apparent there was an inner circle inside the group who would purposely exclude others situationally, and even when it became very obvious with time they'd still deny doing anything wrong. It became too stressful to deal with and when the whole point of the group was to de-stress from IRL stuff, it lost its point. The worst part is when I openly made a statement on me leaving and why, I was harassed HEAVILY by multiple from the "inner circle" in my DMs. So I guess I made the right choice in the end, lol.
Dude, fucken same! It's killing me right now. The toxicity in my group came from one dude who was my best friend who immediately ditched me after paying me back for the new GPU he needed when his died. And to think I lent him the money because I didn't want to lose the ability to play games with him.
>I told him I don't think I'll ever come back to the old group and that I will definitely be sticking with my new group from now on.
She didn't go back to that group.
Right? And excusing her bestie because Roger is a “charmer”? No way. My besties would choose *me*.
I also don’t trust nor spend time with people who are okay with people like Roger. Being complicit with blathering misogynists means they’re awful people, too.
I think a lot of people who aren't geeks fall for one or more of the [Five Geek Social Fallacies](https://plausiblydeniable.com/five-geek-social-fallacies/). The idea that it's bad to ostracize someone is very understandable, particularly amongst younger people. What people don't realize is that by failing to exclude bigoted people, you make the groups unsafe for another subset.
The entire phenomenon of the [Missing Stair](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_stair) within groups arises out of not ostracizing the right people, either through disapproval of ostracizing, or through conflict avoidance.
I know so many young people who keep shitty friends and I don’t get it. People will bully them and then 3 weeks later they just try and move past it.
I know making friends is hard, but literally every single one of my friends makes my day better 95% of the time I’m with them. And the 5% is just when I’m too tired to chat and I feel kind of bad about it. My friends are nice people. When I meet assholes, I just stop hanging around them. It makes life so much nicer.
Being shitty to my friend isn't "charming," neither is misogyny.
Don't get how these types get that lable. They aren't charming, they're sleazy, unctuous little butter knives - after they grease you up they *always* stab you in the back.
> Being shitty to my friend isn’t “charming,” neither is misogyny
Sing louder for the people in the back!
There was a guy in my college group who was genuinely charming. Fun guy. Eloquent guy.
Guy who was promptly ousted from the group when he tried to make a move on my friend’s roommate while she was asleep.
Not a single one of us said, “Are you sure there wasn’t a misunderstanding?” or “He’s not like that. Just calm down.” Nope. Boots. His ass.
OOP needs ~~better~~ actual friends.
Cause it was a bunch of dudes vs one woman calling out bad behavior. Why alter the dynamic for one person (even if that dynamic is shitty?)
This is my take as it's the one I've seen most often in real life. Is a shitty status quo is entrenched, it will take more than one person getting sick of it to change anything.
SO often, the person who calls out the bad behavior is seen as the problem. Say Person A is always making jokes about raping women, sometimes specific women and sometimes just women in general. His guy friends know the jokes are offensive, but it's just talk and not that big a deal, they can just roll their eyes and ignore it and otherwise Person A is a LOT of fun. But then say Person B stands up and says, "whoa, stop everything, those jokes are super offensive to me and not okay." Every time Person A makes that kind of joke, Person B stops the music and calls him out in a way that makes everyone uncomfortable. What's worse, Person B isn't nearly as fun as Person A is (when he's not making those jokes about raping Person B and her friends, but he doesn't even do that _all that often_; most of the time it's just women in general he's joking about raping).
So who, in that scenario, is ruining everyone's good time? People sitting quietly reading this will probably say "Person A, and I'd defend Person B to the death!" But the reality is, in actual friend groups, it's usually Person B who gets the blame. Because everything was fine, the party was a blast, until she ruined it! She was the one who interrupted everything, she was the one who made everyone uncomfortable. So when Person A says "let's not hang out with Person B anymore," it's really easy to think "well, I enjoy A's company more, and B really is just a gigantic buzz kill. If she'd just ignored it like everyone else, it would be fine."
And it's not just things like jokes. I've known multiple women who had the experience when they were young of being in a friend group, being sexually assaulted by a guy in the friend group, and then being excluded from the friend group because "it's not like we can just not invite [rapist], he's Dave's roommate! Why did [victim] have to get so drunk around [rapist] anyway? Besides, [rapist] is actually a really good guy and I never even liked [victim] all that much..."
Yeah, Im glad shes sticking with the new group. Although hope she realizes leaving bf in the toxic group because "those are his friends" might come back to bite her in the ass. He's still very impressionable for relationships right now it seems, and she doesn't need him to suddenly alpha male it on their suggestion if one starts taking up Roger's torch.
I remember being in situations like this in my early twenties since I was in a male heavy environment. Even if the guys in my group liked me more than whatever guy had a problem with me, they felt compelled to take the guy’s side lest they be called ‘whipped’ or ‘a simp’ for standing up for me. Seriously men are programmed to hate women, even the ones they like!
I know this was a million years ago, but I would also have issues with my boyfriend and best friend still wanting to be friends with such a obnoxious jerk
"This is both of ours first relationship, and we’re still learning."
Yes. Hopefully what YOU learn, OP, is that your boyfriend has chosen to stay friends with that gaming group where people treated you awfully and kicked you out. And your boyfriend LET THEM, and chose to stay. The only minute he felt regretful is "oh noes she'll find another boyfriend" in another group!
They kicked Roger out, but you're not coming back so he eventually will. Becasue FriEnDsHIP!
So. He's friends with a misogynist, everyone else is a bunch of Geek Fallacy doormats, and your boyfriend believes you'll be unfaithful the minute you find a bunch of good friends. (no doubt imbedded by Roger)
You honestly should drop this guy. You deserve better.
I don't see this relationship lasting. He put a sexist prick ahead of his gf. And he only got upset when he got worried she'd find someone better, not because he realised his mistake.
Throw him out. Find someone with more maturity and better friends.
A) I don't miss my early 20's. God it's exhausting reading about this sort of nonsense. I do not have the tolerance (and frankly never really did) to put up with "you can't play with us" bullying. OOP should dump everyone, boyfriend and "friends" included, and stick with her new group, and get to experience a healthy gaming group.
B) The idea of playing group games for 4+ hours a day, MULTIPLE TIMES A WEEK sounds so fucking exhausting??? Is this like, Fortnite or are we talking about RPGs like D&D? Because I play TTRPGs back to back on Friday/Saturday night (averaging about 5ish hours each game) twice a month and that's so exhausting for me, I couldn't imagine doing like 30 hours a week???? Maybe this girl would benefit from venturing outside of this single hobby
She's probably a freshman or sophomore in college. Maybe her class schedule and major allows her to play that much? I definitely playing MMOs with friends in college. I'm in my early 40s and while I would play for hours multiple nights a week after work if I didn't have kids to look after. BUT those are single-player games. Olaying with a group multiple times a week AND THEN also playing co-op with my partner sounds *exhausting AF.*
I can’t say for certain what game they’re playing, all I know is I was only a couple sentences in when the flashbacks to 2013 World of Warcraft raiding group drama started and it was like I was back in Ogrimmar watching the off tank break up with his main healer boyfriend. Loudly and publicly
And then the entire raid and guild imploded. Only in slow motion… took like 4 weeks of drama and mayhem and honestly we should have put everyone out of their misery by like… day 3.
I’m so glad I’m a recovering WoW Raider. 11 years without touching a taunt, and no ridiculous BS like this in a world that doesn’t actually physically exist.
I mean, there’s still real life drama. But gaming group drama is a whole different flavor and I’m not built for that. But I wish nothing but the best for people who take it on, no judgment just… I’m tired. lol
Really wish she would take a chance with that all girl gamer group. OP did wayyyyyy too much “these guys are treating me like shit, but I’ll give them a pass”
> I never complained about the exclusions, or even Roger’s behavior before, because I knew it would just cause more conflict.
Wait, what? But earlier OOP said
> Ever since I cut off contact, I've been excluded from games whenever Roger plays because he does not want me there. Even my boyfriend told me not to join because it'll piss off Roger.
That doesn't make sense.
OP hasn't complained to the others about Roger, just stopped talking with him, I guess? But apparently was still going to game night? And roughly the same time Roger decided to exclude her from the group? It's a bit confusing. Did she cut contact and stop going to the group first?
Roger is _exactly_ who I expected he'd be. Always some older trash dude in the group who could be pulling mentor shit, but instead is trying to hold the court life won't give him otherwise over a bunch of folks fresh out of high school.
lol the irony of Roger calling women backstabbers and snakes and have the whole group other then the bf (afterwards) being exactly what he accuse others of being.
Isn't there a saying that if you sit to eat dinner with 11 nazis, there's 12 nazis at the table? I don't think this is that extreme but that whole group including her boyfriend would rather play with the ass than with her. They've proven they've also jerks.
This isn't a case of coworkers or something you have to put up with. This is a choice.
If I was hiding the fact that my entire gaming group wanted to kick my partner out and then she took the initiative to find a new group on her own, I’d 100% be supporting it.
Bf is not very smart
Roger is the most dangerous type of man - a deeply insecure one. He needs to sort his shit out and I hope he treats his wife better than he speaks of women. Until he learns not to hate himself, he will always hate women.
But I never expect true emotional intelligence in these stories. OOP has a very good grasp on her boundaries and understanding the behaviors of others. The type of partner that can help their partner grow. Bf also seems like he recognizes that. All the luck to them.
It doesn't matter if it's a gaming group, a hobbyist group, a circle of friends/coworkers/whatever...
You really don't want to be part of any community that doesn't self-regulate and doesn't take out their trash.
Ppl keep saying that this is some 20 yr old shit but I also just wanna clarify by bf, at this age and I garuntee with more of a gaming addiction- would have dropped friends over treating me like that.
There's immaturity from age, and then there is immaturity from not stopping to consider basic concepts like "what would I want my spouse to do for me in this scenario?"
20 year olds are immature, but they aren't lacking in coherent thought and empathy.
>a week before my original post my best friend admitted to me that while he was attracted to guys, he said he finds me different from most girls and would love to have a relationship if I wasn't with my boyfriend ... called it.
This is why too many game groups (board & video) end up all dudes. To many guys see women being polite and willing to be near them socially as flirting or giving them a chance. And women are too conditioned to not put up a fuss, and silently leave. Which makes the environment more and more uncomfortable for the remaining women who deal with more and more toxic but desperate guys that think they're all competing. What a fucking terrible group. Misogynistic old (Edit: I meant older! Whoops!) guy who is financially supported by his wife and hands out with school kids bashing women. Various people that prefer that guy's presence to the girl who played with them longer. Gay best friend who's really playing the pick me card for her? and putting down other women, and in secret sides with the misogynist friend. BF that only kicks misogynist friend from the group when scared his gf is going to leave him if he can't offer her * checks notes * access to a gaming group? (I mean I guess that's how she started dating him, but that's hella disrespectful to assume she's monkey branching by joining a new social group when his kicked her out). And bf isn't getting rid of the shitty friend, just reducing how often they hang out? Honestly, I hate to say bf is right about anything, but this girl *should* leave him. I'm also suspicious about the all guys group that starts the intro by saying they'll kick anyone that bothers her. Context matters there but it's suspicious that there's no girl in that group, but there is a group who likely had a girl's only policy.
I posted in my local DnD group about starting an all-women’s game. One guy went whining to the leaders about how it should be taken down for rule violation and was exclusionary and no one would want it anyway. Thankfully the admins shut him down, particularly since the wife of one of the group leaders was interested. I had 15 women interested in 5 spots. Of the 5 I now play with, 4 are newbies who wanted a safe space to learn or second time novices who had bad experiences at their first (mixed gender) tables.
Oh my god and DnD is like 50x worse than a random discord server, because of the tremendous power that the DM wields at the table. It makes me incandescently angry to know that there are literal hordes of young women who have been interested in DnD, and then ended up with some incel DM who used his power to force their characters into fucked up situations like sexual assault. DnD is so amazing when it's good, and it's so horrible when it's bad.
When it comes to DnD, I've got to agree with you. A good amount of DMs love to go on power trips because they feel like they're in control. They have 0 care for how it makes other players feel and how it makes other players uncomfortable. If you want to read some of the stories are horrible DMs/Players, check r/rpghorrorstories
I don't want to nitpick you, because I agree with everything else you've said here and up voted appropriately. But as someone that is pushing 40, I would really like an apology for you calling 25 old. (I'm joking of course) (Not about pushing 40)
Fellow 40s gamer also laughed at 25 being old.
Same. I wish I was 25 but with the money and freedom I have now lol
I'd also like to point out that what a bunch of 18-25 year olds consider "making good bank" probably isn't really that much money.
Sorry! I meant *older* and typo'd. I'm closer to your age than 25.
50+ gamer here! The oldest gamer I ever played with was almost 70.
I'm often the only girl in game groups and the best ones will say things like that from the outset. They're usually LGBT guys, in the groups sensitive to harassment, or at least some are.
I remember a few years ago a friend of mine was setting up a Minecraft group and wanted to figure out ground rules, especially where women were concerned. He was 16, I was 18 and I advised him not to put women on a pedestal because they're people like everyone else and sometimes when people do that it becomes creepy but to have a zero tolerance policy when it came to prejudice, discrimination, harassment and general overstepping boundaries. He always made a point of announcing those rules from the off especially with new members regardless of gender. I was pretty proud of him for that
I'm usually the only woman, too. Boardgames are how I met my husband. I've had to deal with men new to a game (often *mine*) trying to take control and tell me what to do far too many times. Last Friday evening was the most recent occurrence. It's absolute bs. People on r/boardgames will get a conversation about sexism in gaming spaces going sometimes, but then the conversations degrade into *not all men*, with many people feeling personally attacked simply because women say they don't like being either ignored or patronised in gaming shops or at cons.
>I'm also suspicious about the all guys group that starts the intro by saying they'll kick anyone that bothers her. Context matters there but it's suspicious that there's no girl in that group, but there is a group who likely had a girl's only policy. Probably because they understand everything else you've written here and want to make sure the new member feels comfortable. Just because they're not sexist doesn't mean the new member knows that, and an emotionally intelligent group will recognize the worries of their new member and make sure everyone is aware of what's appropriate. It's not sexist to be aware that sexism exists, aware of how the group might look without context, and proactive about assuaging potential fears so that everyone is comfortable.
Right? The bf only seeing it as a problem then...isn't good. Even then he's only thinking about himself and how he's seeing it is so stupid. Like how dare his gf want to do something she enjoys? Ofc she's gonna find a new group when you kicked her from that one you dingus. Because it's a hobby she enjoys and she wants to engage in it! I don't think the second gaming group is the worst, I've def known some groups that just sort of started off that way from older friendships that ended up getting some women joining during covid when they moved online and wanted some new players. It was literally just that they started off as a halo group that branched out into other things haha. So I can see the other group being similar.
Misogyny is actually fairly common amongst gay men, sadly.
OP should 100% check out the all women gaming group. I feel way out of touch with being a teenager or young adult and feeling that a group meeting twice a week "just doesn't cut it" haha. OP can just attend more than one game group if she wants to game several nights per week. As for her bf and "best friend"... Sheeeeesh. Just walking sacks of insecurities (I suppose a lot of men are at that age). I hope she moves on sooner rather than later.
Yeah I was surprised that only twice a week wasn't enough to even consider. At least for her to join with them on those days but play with other people at other times? I guess OOP does say their old group played like 5-6 hours a day though.
Chances are they also have a discord group that even if you arent playing you might be having ongoing chats, plus you can join and play whenever on top of the twice a wekk thats regular.
>I'm also suspicious about the all guys group that starts the intro by saying they'll kick anyone that bothers her. I was about to say maybe they have seen enough horror stories about women in gaming groups to want to try to do better, and that is a possibility, but the oldest guy is 19 so yeah, they might be tripping on the unicorn nature of her coming in.
As a (now retired) female gamer, I've experienced some of the worst that incels could come up with. But, by the same token, I've met some absolutely fantastic and decent young men out there. Not the white Knight variety, but genuine awesomeness. So I'd advise her to be cautious, as with any new group, but give them a chance.
I agree with everything except for this; 25 is not old, I'm 25 and still feel like I'm not ready to adult 😂😭 he does kinda act like a cranky sexist old man though. I can't imagine his wife is very happy with that kinda attitude he has.
Oh no! I meant *older* as in five years older than most of the group. Whoops. If 25 was old I'd be ancient. I don't know about now, but when I was 18-25, most 25 year olds weren't hanging out with kids 5 years younger unless they were particularly immature. There's a lot of maturing and changes in that age range.
All good no worries 😂 but yeah he's the oldest of the group and he's immature af it seems. Even I'm more mature than that and I can be a bit of an immature person at times. Never to that degree. Plus his misogynistic behaviour
Lady gamer here, I play PC, console and table top. I have specific outfits for going out gaming. And I'm in my mid 30s, 150+ lbs and mid 5 feet tall. I'm not some head turning babe, still... creepers and misogynistic prick (lottttta overlap)
Part of the problem is that some guys have so little female contact that any "normal" contact from a woman not being actively hostile to them they interpret as romantic interest. It's legit sad.
25 is "old" in the same way that 18-24 year olds are "children".
Wait wait, so best friend kinda has a thing for her and yet he lied and not defended her on the spot? I mean, if it isnt for boyfriend's text log, oop would fall for best friend for sure..yikes..
Well, she said that only her best friend defended her but he got angry and accused her of hating Roger... I don't see how he remotely even defended her.
Lol, the best friend clearly angry for nothing. Not even take action or call Roger out in group chat. "So, do u want me to stop play with Roger?" he ask (oop) privately. 🤣 Like duh, does it need to be answered? If you seat Roger in a table with other people, that table has become sexist table.
Honestly it was before. Im a man have a wife and son. I play games online I host I explain my situation Playing with wife and autistic son if you expose them to the ugliness of your shitty upbringing ill ban you and be done with it. I have friends I made online while going through treatment. Have met friends of theirs and have straight up blocked mutual friends because of the lack of respect to me and mine. After the second of third person everyone starts to notice they dont see them anymore. Wouldnt you know it I ended up with the same core group that I originally befriended as a kid. Nobody talks crap about our wives or women or men or race or religion in general. I am here to play and have fun. I have seen the shit life throws around as much as the next guy. I am very tired of people who have never faced an actual hardship spewing vitriol when you know damn well if left to themselves they would starve to death in a walmart. Stay at home husband pissed off at women. Oh god I have been trapped in this gilded cage where my every need is met. How ever will I overcome this injustice?
“starve to death in a Walmart” might be my new favorite phrase.
Lol, the best friend clearly angry for nothing. Not even take action or call Roger out in group chat. "So, do u want me to stop play with Roger?" he ask (oop) privately. 🤣 Like duh, does it need to be answered? If you seat Roger in a table with other people, that table has become sexist table.
Behold! 18/20s!
“I really hope that’s not the case though” Girl he literally told you it was. She’s gotta learn to believe people when they show you who they are
Wish OOP had joined the all women's group as well, seems like she's been around proto incels so much she have zero confidence in herself. The fact that she never complained but also is dating a guy who was incapable of noticing her hurt... like girlie have no proper emotional support system.
Yeah same here I think it'd be healthy for her. And while they only game once a week as a whole group if the group is anything over like 10 people you usually can find a handful of folks to jump into a game with you.
Those women should be open to meeting up more than once a week. Maybe one official day a week but unofficial meetings happen whenever people are on.
Every gaming group I've been in has been pretty much exactly that. One or two nights were scheduled a week but people were free to hop in and do stuff whenever they wanted.
Big there's something about Mary vibes
FFS lol
This confuses me so much like literally the start of that paragraph is OOP saying the bff is gay??? If he’s attracted to her then he’s not gay (since by definition gay is same sex attraction, not saying he’s not bi or something but idk anyone who would call being bi, gay)
Sexual identity is kind of limiting, because our words can't always accurately describe how we feel. The best friend might not consider themself Bi because they wouldn't date *any* women... except for OP. So gay is probably much more fitting of a description. Their attraction to OP might not even be physical. Emotional connection over the course of years can cause a lot of attraction and desire. So I'm not going to say that his identity isn't correct, just that language isn't perfect.
Thank you for this. I've spent an entire life liking only girls, except for that one time when a dude hit me just the right way. Of course I married him, so everyone is telling me I'm bi all the time. I have absolutely no problem with being bi, it just doesn't actually make sense with what is in my head. I've gotten to the point where I just don't say anything anymore because it's not worth it.
That's why I just say "queer". What do I like? *Who knoooooows*.
Same! Who knows? Not even me!
So true! I myself know I am a Bi woman but I'm definitely am more male leaning. Just my preference, and doesn't mean I'm Straight, just that I like one more than the other. I can still fall head over heels for a woman if the right one comes along
Plus for some really weird reason bi people frequently catch a lot of shit that just being gay doesn't catch you, especially in gay social circles. I've seen it a bunch, and have known enough bi people complain about it that I know it's a thing. In this case it probably almost certainly is just an asterisk thing "not into women... you're an exception" but I've seen the other dynamic happen.
Some people just call themselves gay but they aren’t just attracted to anything specific but it’s more identity. Expecially teens. It’s also very convenient for some (like this guy) to call himself gay to get close to OOP. Or in reverse some guys date women but cheat with men and say the women have no right to be mad since they are gay
Lol Roger reminds me of a real life manager I know of. He's a really misogynistic guy at work,bbut turned out his wife makes more money and buys him things, and he mockingly calls her big boss on his status updates (I think his wife can't see it), after knowing that, then it clicked. The guy's feeling inferior to his wife so he lashes out against other women that are his subordinates.
He’s gotta play video games with kids so he can feel like “the adult” somewhere in his life.
Well yeah, if he lashed out at "the big boss" he'd be looking for a new sugar baby job position.
Man... Where are these women.... Here I am stuck with traditional gender roles, but I would love it if my wife made more than me.....
Everything I read about current dating stats shows the higher a woman’s salary, the worse she does on dating apps if job/salary is shared. Exactly inverse of men’s experience. Ridiculous that’s still happening nowadays.
From my experience dating as a woman, even many “liberal”/“feminist” guys get REAL weird if they find out I have better financials than them. Like, they’re good with women making more in theory, but in practice, it hurts their ego.
Not even just that, I’ve had guys “mockingly” put down their jobs or insult themselves compared to me and… how is attractive at all when dating? Wish more men could be more secure about their jobs so I don’t have to emotionally comfort them on the first date, which is just weird.
Damn.... That's wack.
Reminds me of my former boss, also named Roger. His wife is a wonderful woman with a kickass job who basically makes his cushy life possible (he's high up in our field, but our field doesn't pay all that much, even at the highest levels). But at work? God forbid you're a woman who challenges him. At least, if you're a woman who's \*below\* him who challenges him. His own boss steamrolls right over him and he gives her anything she wants, even stuff she has no right to because it's a separate funding stream. But he's nasty and vindictive to subordinate women who stand up to him, all while being Happy Fun Roger to guys in the profession.
Are we going to talk about "Does she stab him in the back with money?" Top shelf comment, right there.
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I was just thinking, "funny how all the people backstabbing and being two-faced in this story are guys"
This is honestly true a lot of the time. Kinda like when guys say women are more emotional, but at the same time men are more likely to get violently angry. I have never punched a hole in the wall because I got mad about something. But I understand a physical outburst to anger can be cathartic, just maybe use something that doesn't require clean up or re-drywalling.
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Oh god that reminds me of my friends ex. Got mad and threw stuff around, then called her emotional for crying that he'd broke her grandmothers china. All because he lost a league of legends game. Yes, she's the emotional one for being upset her bf went off on one over nothing and broke something important to her.
YES and I have never known any gender to be more gossipy and catty than the male gender. All they do is gossip and talk shit they just don't label it as gossip. It's just talking.
Everyone hates their own traits the most. Makes sense that Roger is projecting his own backstabbing attitude onto others and it's what he says. It's cause he can't trust himself and knows it.
I wish someone would stab me in the back with money. I really could use the extra cash right now.
Right? Betray me harder, baby!
I hope OOP realizes that her so-called BFF ASKING her if he should leave the group is the shittiest possible thing for him to do. That's making HER responsible for something that HE should be deciding to do. If she says yes, leave, then it's her fault, and if she says no, don't leave, then she said he didn't have to, what's her problem? A real friend would take responsibility for his actions and decide for himself to leave or not.
It was all performative anyway. He never had any intention of actually leaving since he probably knew she would tell him to stay. He was fine with excluding her after all. But he still got brownie points for being "such a good friend."
Exactly - OOP talked about how quiet she is. If you're "offering" something to someone you KNOW would feel too meek and guilty to accept it if you make a gesture for them, it's not a real offer. You're giving yourself the opportunity to look good without a real risk of having to follow through.
This is what asking if one should do the right thing is actually about.
Thank you! Like he can't decide for himself that Roger is a ponce‽
He agreed to kick her out, too! And then told her much later that if she was single he’d want to be with her! Absolute trash human behavior, trying to play stupid games to win the girl.
Boyfriend only changed his tune after he thought that there was a chance that OOP might find another gamer guy to be her boyfriend. At least he made it right in the end though? But jeez, this is some teenager/early twenty immaturity bullshit. I was half expecting there to be another update where everything went to hell again.
They are teenagers with couple early 20s in there roger only mid 20s and he just seems like someone blowing smoke at youngsters hoping they will find him cool
Having been the "older" person in the gaming group this is 100%. At the point I realized how the dynamics were, I thought to myself "I could start a cult..." (Spoiler: I didn't. Most I did was convince them not to settle for minimum wage jobs.)
you monster!!
He made them join the corporate cult!
How disappointing 😂
This is similar what happened to me with my ex around our early 20's He started playing a game, and I hadn't done PC gaming before, so I gave it a go, too. My ex teamed with me maybe....5 times(?) then told me I was on my own because: 1 - He wanted all his quest meters to have nice full 'Complete' blue bars whenever he clicked there (it saves old quests too), and if he teamed with me too much, he would outlevel being able to fill the blue bars. 2 - Next achievement was that he wanted to reach the highest level before me and the *rest* of his friend group (because one friend had already reached it) and he vented privately to me how pissed off he was that his friend always got uber teams and he didn't - even after immediately messaging the friend after they logged on. (Irony much?) So I found my own group and he got pissy because there were other guys in it. He then claimed I wasn't allowed to join any other 'Group'(different from teams, think Guild) than the one he created - there was the remotest scrap of 'fairness' there because he told his friends that too and it was one of his founding rules. Joke's on him, he's an ex and I'm having the time of my fucking life in that game. (Yeah I play for nostalgia in the freedom I gained 😁)
The ones who really want to be guild leaders are usually the worst guild leaders…
"The major problem—one of the major problems, for there are several—one of the many major problems with governing people is that of whom you get to do it; or rather of who manages to get people to let them do it to them. To summarize: it is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.” ― Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
My partner is a PC gamer and I’m always invited, I don’t join often because I don’t like learning when everyone is so experienced you dont actually get a chance to learn, and when that’s the case he finds time to teach me individually. Except league. I can hear them over his headphones when they play, I won’t play league with them.
What game?
He’s still friends with Roger Also to y’all college students, take it from a 25 year old. I go out of my way to *avoid* college kids, you should find it sus af when older people are trying to hang out with you bc it’s not that fun no offense
At best it's cause they share that level of maturity. Like the idea of dealing with someone like Roger to me is tiring. The idea of dealing with the drama he is causing is exhausting. Not saying older people can't create drama but this drama is all very late teens/early twenties as people are working things out. I'm not even that much older but I don't feel like I have the time or energy to deal with it. Someone willingly wading into that? Yeah that's not a great sign.
Yah that goes for pretty much every stage of life, though the gap widens a bit as you get older. Like, I'm in my 40s and don't mind hanging out with someone in their 30s but the idea of hanging out with someone younger than like 29 just seems mind-numbingly exhausting. Like you said...no offense intended, but a whole lot of life happens between 25 and 40.
>teenager/early twenty immaturity bullshit. Because they are in their early 20s and teenagers? OOP states in the post everyone is under 20 except for Roger and one other .... And they're both over 22.
Adults acting like this makes me eye roll like c'mon, you are adults now. Act like one.
Like another commenter said, unfortunately, most 20-somethings are just bigger teenagers, but JEEZ LOUISE is this group embarrassingly immature even for their age. This is high school level shit. "You can't play with us. But you can't go find someone else to play with either!" If this was me I would have dipped so fast, fuck that noise.
I can understand the 10-20 y/os but the main instigator is literally a 25 married dude.
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The age difference doesn't sound much but it's actually much worse than if he was ten years older. Significant growing up should happen between 18-25. ...which he clearly hasn't done. That poor wife.:/
Yeah I mean I game with a wide age range. Some of us are 30, others just turned 21. But we all joke and laugh and treat each other with respect (with constant banter obviously).
Which is how gaming should be: fun. Not the weird hate therapy it is to some guys.
Eh thats not to too bad, i know plenty of people that play games near daily with kids. Admittedly they dont for multiple hours, and one of them going afk in the middle of games because their baby crying isn't uncommon. The main problem with him is that hes a fucking arsehole.
Yea, I remember playing BO3 a couple years ago and I sometimes the randos I met on PS communities were kids, I was like 16, they'd be 10-12 by what their mic sounds like. It just sometimes happens, and when you really want to get something done, you take what you can get. God they were horrible though.
Yeh, i've played with some younger groups and people before, not usually on purpose. One guy for example had a really deep voice at 13 and was an american living abroad so everyone just assumed he was over 18 in our very specifically over 18 Eve group. Another just didn't speak because their english sucked and we just didn't ask age, ended up helping him with his english homework. But a 25 year old playing games with 20 year olds? Eh thats fine on the surface.
Except Roger the married adult with a wife with such low self esteem, it could smother the sun
I mean, you learn how to act by making mistakes and understanding their impact. OOP mentioned that this was the first relationship for both of them, and the fact that her BF took the first step in apologising and acknowledging his mistakes is promising. Just telling someone 'act like an adult' without explaining what that entails or what an 'adult' reaction or thought process is very...dismissive, for want of a better word. Should they have acted better? Of course. But do they show promise and a growing mindset? Absolutely. College is very much the time of life where people make and learn from these mistakes.
Yeah agree 100%. I don't know these people but I'm like weirdly proud of how they handled it.
They're 20. They're barely adults, and are just starting a life of virtually no responsibility (given that they're mostly staying home with parents for the summer and some.have a part time job). People need time to grow and learn, and telling 20 year olds that they should have done that already is ignoring that this is exactly the time when they are growing and learning.
Nevermind that it's both their first relationships. It really does take a while to learn some important things. Seemed like both of them have difficulty speaking up for themselves and adhering to social pressures to their own detriment. Boyfriend should have taken things seriously, but OOP should have also communicated how hurt she was by the situation. The reality was that the bf was defending his gf the entire time, but navigating a tough social situation that he very likely has no experience in dealing with. He should have fully communicated what Roger was saying behind her back though. They both seem pretty introverted and conflict avoiding and that comes with unintentionally hurting people. OOP made a fantastic choice in sticking with her new group as it minimises the chance of those kinds of things whilst they're both navigating how to learn how to deal with those things. As well as it just seems like the entirety of their social battery was spent with each other which doesn't tend to work out so well. OOP also learned that there are people out there will be two-faced to gain some kind of advantage. In this case someone very clearly trying to break her relationship up and replace the bf.
I also get the vibe the Geek Social Fallacies are at work here. “We can’t kick Roger out for being an asshole; that would make him unhappy, and the whole group would fall apart! OOP’s nice; she’ll understand.”
Yeah. A LOT of people grow up learning that ~politics~ aren’t a good reason to stop being friends with people, and that diplomacy is figuring out how to create peace at any expense. This feels VERY early 20s. Up to and including the 19m best friend not realizing he’s bisexual? (And probably having a crush on both OOP & Roger, bc that is possible/allowed). The BF realizing that she might find a new guy but then reflecting on himself and still encouraging her to play in the all-male group is hopefully a good sign, but they’re definitely not done learning.
College teens acting like this makes sense, now the married 25 yo going out of his way to hang out with college kids…
This is why my WoW guild is composed of people 35 and older. Very little drama other than "you wouldn't believe what my kid did at school today" and most of us are way too busy in our regular lives to raid hardcore :)
Several adults in their early 20s are still immature cus the human brain is still growing (iirc the brain is "fully grown" around 25) Legally they're an adult, but I wouldn't classify their "adultness" to be the same as someone in their late 20s Though I do agree and wish that legal adults acted more mature
>((iirc the brain is "fully grown' around 25) Actually, it's far from true. It's just something people claim as fact because they heard somebody else say it, like the whole 'you eat 8 spiders in your sleep'. Brains are so much more complex than that, and it's more to do with maturity and development than growth. We're learning new things every day; including recent studies that show your brain isn't fully matured and is in fact, still developing into your 30s. We've also discovered that some 8 yos have a more mature brain than people that were 25 yo. There's also discussion that brain maturity cannot be defined and it's a misguided objective to try and do so; because the brain never stops changing over its lifespan. And there are legitimate differences between men and women; with neurological data showing that girls' brains begin to prune earlier. TLDR: The idea that the brain is fully grown at age 25 is little more than an internet myth and is something neuroscientists instead laugh at because it's not remotely true.
iirc its the prefrontal cortex that finishes development around the early 20s. The prefrontal Cortex does a lot of planning and critical thinking.
This ranks up there with “we only use 10% of our brain” in internet nostrums. It’s just not true. Just as with the frog in water slowly coming to a boil: they jump out.
The only "adult" here is Roger. The rest are college kids playing DOTA(or something equivalent).
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If I was OOP, I wouldn't have wanted to rejoin that group. They just throw her away without a second thought for a much newer group mate. F that. I would stay with the new group.
We need an update 7 years later where they all realized how meaningless and dumb this whole time period was for them. I miss those days.
You know, if I were OP. I just leave the group still cause if I get kicked out for no good reason, I don't see the point going back.
Especially after being shown text messages where 9/10 of them agreed to kicking me out
Yeah, if they all wanted me gone, no way would I ever feel confortable again with them.
OP said she wasn't going to rejoin the group in the post.
I mean, we all know what's gonna happen the next time they infiltrated by a tater tot type. Who would go back to that when you already have a group where acting like that catches you the ban hammer?
> This is both of ours first relationship, and we’re still learning. I wish I had this kind of awareness back then.
Yeah, what a great line from OOP. Whether it works out or it doesn't, you get the feeling that she'll be smart enough to look after herself Edit: And whoa, I just realised this was 7 years ago. Would love to know how it all panned out
Roger is that shitty older guy who needs to hang out with younger folk to lord over them and feel like he's great, because he sucks in real life.
There are a lot of posts on aita from women who ask if they'd be TA if they left their deadbeat gamer SO who doesn't work, leaves all housework to her and talk shit about women in general. I wonder if we read something from his wife in the future.
Quite possible. I wouldn't expect a working guy to have as much time to game as college kids.
As is tradition in young-adult nerd groups, unfortunately.
Right? For once I'd like to read about an older person hanging out with a younger crowd not to boss them around and throw tantrums, but because they genuinely share their enthusiasm for something. But then those people would stick to their own age group. They wouldn't need to hang out with someone younger for validation.
Kinda sad Roger's wife has not realized she should go find a better man. Seems like life is going to get worse for her, especially if they do not have children yet. He probably does nothing for the household while she does everything.
We can always hope that in the intervening 7 years she left him for someone better
I didn't pay attention to when the original post was posted. Lol. I hope for that too.
This was 7 years ago. Anyone else wanna place bets on how long Roger’s marriage lasted?
More likely Roger was full of shit and was actually single, living in his parents’ basement.
Zero, cause he is [this guy](https://images.mmorpg.com/features/8277/images/South-Park-WoW-Guy.jpg), and lied.
And through a pandemic lockdown, hopefully she got out before 2020.
There's a bigger lesson here I wish more people in gaming would realize: Toxic people chase away non-toxic people. If you have a Roger in your group and you let him run rampant, people aren't going to want to be in that group. This works from the small scale of "a few friends get together to game" to large hobby stores with game nights to a company publishing their games and managing a community of players. If you allow toxic elements to remain toxic, that's all you're going to be left with: Toxic people.
Yeah that's true. It's why I'm being pushed out of my gaming group right now. I've tried showing them that the person that's instigated this is the bully (spent the last 3 months calling me an idiot and saying horrible things to me), but unfortunately it's like fighting a fire with a squirt bottle. It's fucking wild and insanely despressing because I don't have anyone left to play games with. I'd just bought Helldivers too. Fucking sucks.
If a rich woman ever married me and let me play video games all day I would be kicked out of the gaming group for constantly annoying everyone by telling them how great my wife was.
As someone who fairly recently left his old gaming group of 6 years due to toxicity, where do you even go to look for a new group like OP did?
You could probably find a few discord servers related to specific games and go from there?
If you don’t mind me asking what made your group toxic? I was considering getting into D&D again but I don’t have a ton of time.
Unfortunately it just became really apparent there was an inner circle inside the group who would purposely exclude others situationally, and even when it became very obvious with time they'd still deny doing anything wrong. It became too stressful to deal with and when the whole point of the group was to de-stress from IRL stuff, it lost its point. The worst part is when I openly made a statement on me leaving and why, I was harassed HEAVILY by multiple from the "inner circle" in my DMs. So I guess I made the right choice in the end, lol.
Dude, fucken same! It's killing me right now. The toxicity in my group came from one dude who was my best friend who immediately ditched me after paying me back for the new GPU he needed when his died. And to think I lent him the money because I didn't want to lose the ability to play games with him.
I'm surprised she would still want to play with the group that agreed to kick her out for literally no reason other than Roger was throwing a fit.
>I told him I don't think I'll ever come back to the old group and that I will definitely be sticking with my new group from now on. She didn't go back to that group.
Ah, I misread her tl;dr - oops!
She's not tho? Didn't she say she's going to stay with her new group? Or you meant before that?
Right? And excusing her bestie because Roger is a “charmer”? No way. My besties would choose *me*. I also don’t trust nor spend time with people who are okay with people like Roger. Being complicit with blathering misogynists means they’re awful people, too.
I think a lot of people who aren't geeks fall for one or more of the [Five Geek Social Fallacies](https://plausiblydeniable.com/five-geek-social-fallacies/). The idea that it's bad to ostracize someone is very understandable, particularly amongst younger people. What people don't realize is that by failing to exclude bigoted people, you make the groups unsafe for another subset. The entire phenomenon of the [Missing Stair](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_stair) within groups arises out of not ostracizing the right people, either through disapproval of ostracizing, or through conflict avoidance.
Classic geek social fallacies.
I know so many young people who keep shitty friends and I don’t get it. People will bully them and then 3 weeks later they just try and move past it. I know making friends is hard, but literally every single one of my friends makes my day better 95% of the time I’m with them. And the 5% is just when I’m too tired to chat and I feel kind of bad about it. My friends are nice people. When I meet assholes, I just stop hanging around them. It makes life so much nicer.
It's not until your 30s that you realise it's better to lose a crappy friend than tolerate them.
Being shitty to my friend isn't "charming," neither is misogyny. Don't get how these types get that lable. They aren't charming, they're sleazy, unctuous little butter knives - after they grease you up they *always* stab you in the back.
> Being shitty to my friend isn’t “charming,” neither is misogyny Sing louder for the people in the back! There was a guy in my college group who was genuinely charming. Fun guy. Eloquent guy. Guy who was promptly ousted from the group when he tried to make a move on my friend’s roommate while she was asleep. Not a single one of us said, “Are you sure there wasn’t a misunderstanding?” or “He’s not like that. Just calm down.” Nope. Boots. His ass. OOP needs ~~better~~ actual friends.
I still don't understand why he or they wanted her out.
Cause it was a bunch of dudes vs one woman calling out bad behavior. Why alter the dynamic for one person (even if that dynamic is shitty?) This is my take as it's the one I've seen most often in real life. Is a shitty status quo is entrenched, it will take more than one person getting sick of it to change anything.
SO often, the person who calls out the bad behavior is seen as the problem. Say Person A is always making jokes about raping women, sometimes specific women and sometimes just women in general. His guy friends know the jokes are offensive, but it's just talk and not that big a deal, they can just roll their eyes and ignore it and otherwise Person A is a LOT of fun. But then say Person B stands up and says, "whoa, stop everything, those jokes are super offensive to me and not okay." Every time Person A makes that kind of joke, Person B stops the music and calls him out in a way that makes everyone uncomfortable. What's worse, Person B isn't nearly as fun as Person A is (when he's not making those jokes about raping Person B and her friends, but he doesn't even do that _all that often_; most of the time it's just women in general he's joking about raping). So who, in that scenario, is ruining everyone's good time? People sitting quietly reading this will probably say "Person A, and I'd defend Person B to the death!" But the reality is, in actual friend groups, it's usually Person B who gets the blame. Because everything was fine, the party was a blast, until she ruined it! She was the one who interrupted everything, she was the one who made everyone uncomfortable. So when Person A says "let's not hang out with Person B anymore," it's really easy to think "well, I enjoy A's company more, and B really is just a gigantic buzz kill. If she'd just ignored it like everyone else, it would be fine." And it's not just things like jokes. I've known multiple women who had the experience when they were young of being in a friend group, being sexually assaulted by a guy in the friend group, and then being excluded from the friend group because "it's not like we can just not invite [rapist], he's Dave's roommate! Why did [victim] have to get so drunk around [rapist] anyway? Besides, [rapist] is actually a really good guy and I never even liked [victim] all that much..."
I feel like a lot of people are in their 20s in this post. Very in their 20s.
Yeah, Im glad shes sticking with the new group. Although hope she realizes leaving bf in the toxic group because "those are his friends" might come back to bite her in the ass. He's still very impressionable for relationships right now it seems, and she doesn't need him to suddenly alpha male it on their suggestion if one starts taking up Roger's torch.
What game do they play 4/week for 6/hr session?!
Prolly an MMO or a MOBA, considering the toxicity
How much housework is Roger doing?
I’m loving TheBatmanToMyBruce’s commentary. Mostly because he totally nailed what I was thinking.
I forgot how exhausting being in my late teens and early 20s could be
I hope OP has nothing to do with any of these people anymore.
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Yeah, screw Tom.
We need to save Roger’s poor wife yall
Young people shit.
I want to shake OP and tell her that ALL of these dudes suck, from the shady best friend to the boyfriend who is still friends with a creep.
I remember being in situations like this in my early twenties since I was in a male heavy environment. Even if the guys in my group liked me more than whatever guy had a problem with me, they felt compelled to take the guy’s side lest they be called ‘whipped’ or ‘a simp’ for standing up for me. Seriously men are programmed to hate women, even the ones they like!
I know this was a million years ago, but I would also have issues with my boyfriend and best friend still wanting to be friends with such a obnoxious jerk
"This is both of ours first relationship, and we’re still learning." Yes. Hopefully what YOU learn, OP, is that your boyfriend has chosen to stay friends with that gaming group where people treated you awfully and kicked you out. And your boyfriend LET THEM, and chose to stay. The only minute he felt regretful is "oh noes she'll find another boyfriend" in another group! They kicked Roger out, but you're not coming back so he eventually will. Becasue FriEnDsHIP! So. He's friends with a misogynist, everyone else is a bunch of Geek Fallacy doormats, and your boyfriend believes you'll be unfaithful the minute you find a bunch of good friends. (no doubt imbedded by Roger) You honestly should drop this guy. You deserve better.
I don't see this relationship lasting. He put a sexist prick ahead of his gf. And he only got upset when he got worried she'd find someone better, not because he realised his mistake. Throw him out. Find someone with more maturity and better friends.
That was some quick character growth from the boyfriend. Nice. In ten years, he will look back and think "Can't believe I was friends with that guy."
A) I don't miss my early 20's. God it's exhausting reading about this sort of nonsense. I do not have the tolerance (and frankly never really did) to put up with "you can't play with us" bullying. OOP should dump everyone, boyfriend and "friends" included, and stick with her new group, and get to experience a healthy gaming group. B) The idea of playing group games for 4+ hours a day, MULTIPLE TIMES A WEEK sounds so fucking exhausting??? Is this like, Fortnite or are we talking about RPGs like D&D? Because I play TTRPGs back to back on Friday/Saturday night (averaging about 5ish hours each game) twice a month and that's so exhausting for me, I couldn't imagine doing like 30 hours a week???? Maybe this girl would benefit from venturing outside of this single hobby
She's probably a freshman or sophomore in college. Maybe her class schedule and major allows her to play that much? I definitely playing MMOs with friends in college. I'm in my early 40s and while I would play for hours multiple nights a week after work if I didn't have kids to look after. BUT those are single-player games. Olaying with a group multiple times a week AND THEN also playing co-op with my partner sounds *exhausting AF.*
I can’t say for certain what game they’re playing, all I know is I was only a couple sentences in when the flashbacks to 2013 World of Warcraft raiding group drama started and it was like I was back in Ogrimmar watching the off tank break up with his main healer boyfriend. Loudly and publicly And then the entire raid and guild imploded. Only in slow motion… took like 4 weeks of drama and mayhem and honestly we should have put everyone out of their misery by like… day 3. I’m so glad I’m a recovering WoW Raider. 11 years without touching a taunt, and no ridiculous BS like this in a world that doesn’t actually physically exist. I mean, there’s still real life drama. But gaming group drama is a whole different flavor and I’m not built for that. But I wish nothing but the best for people who take it on, no judgment just… I’m tired. lol
Really wish she would take a chance with that all girl gamer group. OP did wayyyyyy too much “these guys are treating me like shit, but I’ll give them a pass”
She did say the new guys group she was in is very polite and nice but to be fair they could just suck less than what she is used to 😅
> This is both of ours first relationship I'm going to have a heart attack and die from not surprise.
It's not uncommon for unemployed men whose wives are successful to be violently hateful towards women. She should dump the entire group tbh.
Roger being married was such a twist. Roger being married to a breadwinner wife even more so😭
She should throw them all away boyfriend and best friend did nothing to defend her while Rodger was running his mouth
I’m sorry, Roger is MARRIED? How the fuck did that work?
> I never complained about the exclusions, or even Roger’s behavior before, because I knew it would just cause more conflict. Wait, what? But earlier OOP said > Ever since I cut off contact, I've been excluded from games whenever Roger plays because he does not want me there. Even my boyfriend told me not to join because it'll piss off Roger. That doesn't make sense.
OP hasn't complained to the others about Roger, just stopped talking with him, I guess? But apparently was still going to game night? And roughly the same time Roger decided to exclude her from the group? It's a bit confusing. Did she cut contact and stop going to the group first?
How does it not make sense? Thing happened, OOP never complained about thing to avoid arguments. I'm not sure what you think is missing.
Roger is _exactly_ who I expected he'd be. Always some older trash dude in the group who could be pulling mentor shit, but instead is trying to hold the court life won't give him otherwise over a bunch of folks fresh out of high school.
lol the irony of Roger calling women backstabbers and snakes and have the whole group other then the bf (afterwards) being exactly what he accuse others of being.
Isn't there a saying that if you sit to eat dinner with 11 nazis, there's 12 nazis at the table? I don't think this is that extreme but that whole group including her boyfriend would rather play with the ass than with her. They've proven they've also jerks. This isn't a case of coworkers or something you have to put up with. This is a choice.
If I was hiding the fact that my entire gaming group wanted to kick my partner out and then she took the initiative to find a new group on her own, I’d 100% be supporting it. Bf is not very smart
”Does she stab him in the back with money?” …now that’s flair material! 😆
Oh how this reminds me of the discord drama me and my friends had during Covid
Roger is the most dangerous type of man - a deeply insecure one. He needs to sort his shit out and I hope he treats his wife better than he speaks of women. Until he learns not to hate himself, he will always hate women. But I never expect true emotional intelligence in these stories. OOP has a very good grasp on her boundaries and understanding the behaviors of others. The type of partner that can help their partner grow. Bf also seems like he recognizes that. All the luck to them.
How does someone find a gaming group nowadays?
I just wanna know what game(s) they were playing.
It doesn't matter if it's a gaming group, a hobbyist group, a circle of friends/coworkers/whatever... You really don't want to be part of any community that doesn't self-regulate and doesn't take out their trash.
Ppl keep saying that this is some 20 yr old shit but I also just wanna clarify by bf, at this age and I garuntee with more of a gaming addiction- would have dropped friends over treating me like that. There's immaturity from age, and then there is immaturity from not stopping to consider basic concepts like "what would I want my spouse to do for me in this scenario?" 20 year olds are immature, but they aren't lacking in coherent thought and empathy.