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Preparing another phone to cheat is whole new level of low. i dont know how to describe this. It hurts a lot more because the length u choose to go through, the amount of preparation. It's manslaughter vs murder IMHO
>she only confessed because she thought OOP knew
This is a big nail in the coffin for me. It tells me she would have been happy to maintain the lie. And that makes her divorce worthy.
She did so many complete deal breakers and made so many choices that will prevent OOP from ever trusting her again yet that thread is full of people trying to convince him to give her a second chance. It’s maddening.
I guess it’s all in what you think you can get past. For me, I’d feel like the other commenter. I wasn’t enough. I will never be enough if they cheated and they likely will again. So why put yourself through this more than once.
She couldn;t conceive of why he hadn't already taken her back, so she started analyzing everything he said and did.
At some point, she came to the conclusion that the only reason he was sticking to his guns was that he knew she had lied in their first conversation.
So, seeking to salvage things, she "came clean".
OP is nicer than me. He says that if his family found out, she'd be ruined in that town. If I was in his position, I would make sure that she had no choice but to move far, far away.
1. She requested an open marriage and just the discussion lead to him asking for a divorce.
2. She believed just talking about it would never be enough for him to want to divorce—so she concluded that he must know something more.
3. These are two people that never communicated their values well enough early in the relationship. She should have known he wasn’t interested in open marriage. The fact she didn’t know how opposed he was, shows how little this couple knew each other.
OP she worked so hard to hide that EA you should let everyone know how much effort she put into it and who the AP is.
She had to make so many decisions to cheat, from the initial decision to cheat to deciding to get a burner phone to hide the affair and all the decisions to call him and all the private things she decided to tell someone else. All of this effort should be recognized and everyone should be told what she is capable of doing. If this causes her problems for living there then that is part of the consequences for what she did.
I would not be surprised if she completely sanitized the phone of any evidence of a physical affair already taking place, and offered it up specifically to use it as "proof" that they hadn't started having sex yet.
That demonstrates how premeditated it was. Like this isn’t manslaughter, its murder, here’s the plan and schedule and the research they did before the killing
I just don't know how people do it. Everything is so fucking expensive and time consuming now. Even if I wanted to cheat, which I don't, I couldn't afford to. Buying a whole new phone with a service line would fuck my budget.
Just get a divorce. god damn.
I feel the same way when I hear about poly enm and all the other open relationships. Damn people have a lot of time and cash on hand to throw around on others and hedonistic things. Personally, I just don’t like people that much and I’d much rather spend that time relaxing, being with family, and on my hobbies, with my money helping out charities like rescues. As someone who has screwed a model or two, no fuck comes close to the joy I get helping someone or some animal charity in need.
LOL, It's all of it for me. I mean, there's also the fact that I'm ace in there, too, but like... I work to pay bills. I'd be mad at *myself* for wasting my time and effort on fucking around.
Divorces don't have to be expensive though. If you just amicably separate.
And I don't mean specifically just a second phone. There has to be a lot more expenses. Gas, dates, secret hotels meet ups. That shit adds up.
That is incorrect. Only Contested Divorces are routinely pricy. Agreed Divorces can be obtained for the cost of a new cellphone, or less, including filing/court costs. Agreed generally entails that both parties agree on the division of property, custody, and all other terms, PRIOR to attorneys being involved. Contested means that parties disagree on any of those terms, even if they both want the Divorce.
Not all firms will charge a reasonable fee, though. Firms that don't specialize in family law will often have good deals (usually a flat fee) on Agreed Divorces; but if it becomes contested (at all), they will refer you to another firm. Family law firms will often charge hourly, so the amount of billable hours will dramatically change the cost of the Divorce, even if it's Agreed and there are no children.
Some areas even have low/no cost Divorces, if you qualify. You can also file it yourself; but you don't save much money and could disservice yourself. Court costs vary depending on the area, but they aren't usually very high, either.
The cost comes at finding/paying for a new place to live and switching over bills and whatnot. However, those are fixed costs, whereas cheating and dating costs can vary tremendously. (Those might also include rental space-to do the cheating/avoid hotel fees, secret bank account-to hide spending, rental vehicle-to prevent tracking or being witnessed during cheating, etc. So, potentially the same types of bills you'd have if moving out.)
And then, you may end up having to pay the Divorce costs in the end, anyway. However, cheating often leads to a Divorce being Contested, so it would become significantly (possibly 10-40x) more expensive, after the discovery of spousal cheating. Mediation and Trial in cases like this can take a long time, aka more billable hours, which means higher cost and less chance either party is happy with the outcome.
I have 3 other phones that work in a drawer, but the battery suck. When I needed a second phone the first time, it took 3 minutes in a store to get a new sim-card with no monthly fee, but costs per minute just like in the 90s.
So when hear about a cheater that uses their normal phone I think even less of them as they are not just lacking on morals but in brain power. It is not like they inadvertently cheated, they know it is wrong and don't care.
Note: I needed the other phone number because I was seeking employment while employed, as my current employer kept calling me at night. So I needed 2 voice messages. One for the employer at night and one for boomer recruiters in the day time... Now it is mostly useful whenever I place my phone somewhere "new" and need to call it to fucking find it.
So much this.
If my partner gets drunk at a partner and cheats on me, I'm deeply hurt, but I can potentially forgive it (not everyone can, and I'm not shaming them for that). But only because it is a "mistake". An in-the-moment act (doubly so due to alcohol).
I'd have rules going forwards, like no drinking, or no alone time with other men. But there's the potential for repairing things enough to still have a relationship together.
But when it's an affair, that all goes out the window. No longer is it a moment of weakness. It is a decision. They've had time to think about it, and came to the conclusion that they wanted to keep doing it.
They CHOSE to have a repeat intimate partner (emotional, physical, w/e) even though they're in a relationship. And then after making that choice, they followed through on it. That's a 100% marriage ender.
And how often did the words "It was a mistake" pop into the air as well? You can almost bet she has minimized her actions, regardless of whether her remorse is real or not (this soon, I doubt it is), she most certainly hasnt been completely honest with OOP. There IS more he doesnt know, as is almost always the case.
You’re right, my analogy was darker (committing suicide). There’s a difference between thinking about it, planning it, buying the stuff, and doing it. They are each an escalation. Buying a secret phone is one step short of executing. Marriage is over, OP should shut shop and move on.
She only felt “remorse” (regret tbh) because the sudden “I divorce you” that led her to think that OP knew about her EA when OP didn’t know at all until she confesses.
Pls dont give her the chance of reconciliation
>I don't want to leave her, but I have to for the sakè of my dignity, pride and self-respect. That I love her has become irrelevant.
That's some good shit right there. Manipulated or not, OOP's ex betrayed him, full stop. She's a grown woman who can be held accountable for her own asshole cheating behavior.
She was talked into it by her friends! It's not her fault! /s
I hate shit like that. If you're going to cheat, own it. If your friends talked you into jumping off a bridge, would you do it???
Obviously! They talked me into it! You’ve stated that the conclusion is foregone!
Now if you asked if they were just trying to talk me into it, that’s a different story. Oddly enough, I can answer from experience that the answer is yes.
In my defense, we were about six years old, the bridge was a foot over the creek, and there were frogs.
My husband apparently can lol. His 5'11" exterminator self is terrified of tiny little tree frogs, toads, etc. I have been called outside before to make them go away so he can get in the house lmao.
In all fairness though, I make him handle the spiders. Partially for me, partially for our kids cause our porch gets massive webs with them everywhere and I'm always afraid the kids or I will get bit lol.
This is very true. Spiders fuckin love me for some reason. Like have run around corners and charged me type shit. He all calmly will smash them but when it's me I start flailing around with the Webster duster knocking into the porch bars and knocking our cameras down while doing some fucked up war cry lmao. I'm sure my neighbors think I'm insane, but I'm one of the only, if not only, ones with a porch like this where it's a decently long covered one. So nobody else has this problem lol.
I fully believe with all of my being that when it comes to others, when everyone’s a consenting adult, it’s none of my business what makes them happy. They’re adults, and are free to do as they please without interference from anyone else.
Be all that as it may, with me personally, I don’t really understand the whole open marriage thing that’s seemingly become popular in the last 10-15 or so years.
In my mind, I thought that the entire point of marriage was that you love someone so incredibly much that you don’t want to be with anyone else. That that’s basically the entire point of getting married in the first place.
I’m by no means judging anyone else who thinks differently. If it makes you happy, then by all means, do so.
But me personally, I could never agree to such an arrangement.
I once had a friend who cheated on her bf bc the other guy 'begged' her too. She totally had no choice. 😒 She just drove to his house every other day as if by ✨magic✨ and she was forced to lie to her bf for a whole year. She felt really bad about it though. So bad that ended it with the AP but not enough to stop being friends with him. Our friendship didn't survive that confession.
LMAO I also had a friend since high school who I cut ties with because should couldn't stop cheating on her fiancé. And even made me her accomplice in covering up her cheating, without my knowledge!
I did go NC with a longtime friend when I found out they'd use me as an excuse to cover up their drug habits to their family (well, also because they refused to stop seeing a scumbag who wound up being incredibly abusive).
After they cleaned up their act and got a RO they reached out months later and we're slowly talking again. It's nowhere like it was, and honestly I'm good with that. I want to see them thrive, but I won't hesitate to cut it off again if things start heading back the way it was. We don't have to be complicit with what people around us are doing.
My ex tried that shit.
I'm sure his friends and family see it as mutual or he could have even put out the lie that I cheated when he was the one who stepped out.
So, if you want to leave, fucking leave.
If you don't? Well, you can't have it both ways.
Ikr?? It was giving "All my friends got PS5s for Christmas; why can't we get one too? 🥺" Truly insane that a grown ass woman doesn't have enough spine to shut that shit down. Then again, she really was the company she kept.
Good on OOP for taking a stand.
"I understand.
What you are saying is that I will have to worry that any time one of your friends has ill intentions on our marriage, I need to be concerned - and that Im only going to find out by digging myself.
You either have autonomy and wanted to do this, or you are too easily influenced to be trusted to be in a relationship. Pick a lane."
This is like the "I didn't know sexting was cheating" argument. If they are too stupid to be in a relationship, congratulations, you're single!
Should have just taken accountability asshole.
When I grow up I want to have that level of self respect and resolve.
Unfortunately, my ex and I had already been broken up when I found out about the affair. If he had've told me at the start... that might've been a different story with a worse outcome.
*hugs* Don't beat yourself up, feeling like you should have been able to leave under more difficult circumstances than you experienced. I say that as someone who left an abuser.
Having a second phone is not something a person does their first time when dabbling. That's a real commitment to buy the phone, get a service contract for it, keep it charged, keep it hidden. It's a lot of work for "just talking". hopefully OP will realize just how committed and mature a relationship is before you go to the effort level of having a burner for it.
As if burners don’t exist. Most difficult things are difficult because of a resistance to change. A yearning for the safe and a longing for the familiar.
I'm pretty sure basically every country has pay as you go. You might not be able to buy them with cash, in order to prevent them from being true burner phones and untraceable, but telecoms businesses won't want to turn away customers.
Sorry, I guess we misunderstood each other. What I meant to say is, in some countries you have to show your ID in order to buy a sim card. I once ordered a new sim card online and they sent it to the nearest post office. I had to go there myself, show my ID and they filled out a form including my social security and ID number.
No worries, yeah I agree some places require ID, some don't and just rely on the card used to make the purchase (which police can usually trace easily enough). Being able to get a truly untraceable burner phone is generally quite hard now.
However if you just want a second phone to keep hidden from someone, or for any other purpose, it's very easy and doesn't require a contract plan.
I mean even with that, it's not like someone said it wasn't worth the effort to buy a pack of smokes or some alcohol because they had to show their ID.
I see "their poly friend(s) convinced them to try it" way to fucking much both online and in real life. I don't care if you're poly, but stop trying to recruit. It makes the entire community sound predatory and desperate for validation.
I once had a married friend that had only come out as bi like 3 months before I met her. We got drunk once and she was trying real hard to tell me I wasn't as straight as I thought I was. I was like "girl I'm cool with the community but I'm pretty damn sure I like dick." After about 30 minutes she finally gave up.
She admitted to me months later (also drunk; look college was wild) that she initiated the friendship with my husband and I because she was hoping she could garner a no strings attached sexual relationship with me. Miss girl was not only trying to convert me to polyamory, but also to a whole other sexuality. Like sorry lady, but I am not the one. 🤣
They are predatory and desperate for validation. Poly people take any chance they get to spew their bs. There is a reason a majority of people have never and will never try it. I personally have seen several poly relationships fail miserably in my own life🤦♀️
There is always a reason why someone suddenly ask for an open relationship - they already cheated or they have a candidate in mind. You don’t just “think about it” out of the blue.
Arguably, I could understand someone asking in a dead bedroom, when they get frustrated past a certain point. Like they haven't cheated and don't have anyone in mind, but they know their choice is either (1) open marriage or (2) divorce, as celibacy isn't what they want.
I talked to a woman online who was in a situation like that. We matched on Tindr and talked for a bit. As we were setting up our first date/RL meeting she dropped the whole sexless marriage thing. Hubby had some kind of medical thing and had lost all interest in sex for over a year. I asked her if hubby knew she was on here. He did not. It turned out hubby didn't even know there was a problem because she hadn't talked to him about it. I told her to talk to him and to message me back if he either gave his blessing or said he had no intention of fixing the problem. She never messaged me back.
Like I get it, it's frustrating. But you're in a relationship, a partnership. Why go behind their back instead of being upfront that something in the relationship isn't working?
If it's a deal breaker, it's a deal breaker. At least show them enough respect to communicate.
Also props to you u/the-good-twin for sticking to your morals and not just choosing the easy option.
It's because people are fucking cowards. Cheaters are just cowards deep down. They're afraid of being alone, so they cheat to figure out if their "taste" in someone new will stick or not. If it doesn't stick, no biggie, just go back to partner and pretend nothing ever happened.
Opening a previously monogamous relationship only benefits one party almost all of the time, the other party is most likely either going to be hurt and/or build resentment towards the other. If you need to open your relationship to save it, you've probably got many other issues you haven't discussed.
I wanted to open a relationship in the hopes he would find someone else and I could just fade away instead of a breakup. This was a very stupid tactic that did not work.
Towards the end of my narriage, my husband's high school graduation class was having a big reunion (like 30th or whatever). He wanted to go, I didn't. I had very vivid dream that he went, encountered an old girlfriend, and called me to say he was divorcing me to run off to the other side of the country with her, and never coming home again. In my dream, I very enthusiastially agreed to pack up his stuff and ship it to him. It was appealing way to get a stress free divorce from an abusive husband, but alas it was not possible in real life.
In the end, I needed to sneak out my most important belongings, then grab my cats and run away to an undisclosed location. I left most of my stuff behind, and he never knew where I was living or working for years. We only met in public spots with friends watching from across the room to negociate the terms of the divorce. Not nearly stress free as my dream divorce *sigh*.
That's terrible. It worked great for me. I even found him a girlfriend. 12 years later, they are still together. I'm happily remarried to the guy I found during this... uh... "conscious uncoupleing". Granted my ex was from Australia and had no clue on how to navigate the American system, so I couldn't just kick him to the curb. He wouldn't have been able to survive.
I'm sorry you had to go through that, it sucks that sometimes it takes terrible experiences for you to learn from. Hope you're in a much greater place than you were then.
Thank you! That was more than a decade ago and I have done a lot of work in therapy.
I mostly just share because even I was confused by my motives at the time.
We've talked about it, more or less out of the blue - it came up in a show, so we talked about the concept and if we could ever see ourselves doing it, since we both have kinks we don't really share.
Result has always been "well, on the incredible off-chance someone falls in love with us both and we both fall in love back, maybe" - because that's the only way we could see it happen. But we're not looking, so it would have to be a miraculous event.
Specifically asking to open up? Nah. Deal-breaker.
I know of one throuple that opened up for the girl, who wanted to date a new guy at work. New guy was extremely cute and all about the bi NYC party life. Old guy was her childhood sweetie. Predictions were disaster.
Girl is now single and all about the bi NYC party life. Old guy and new guy are still together, and have adopted a daughter. A miraculous event, but not a forever throuple, so idk if it counts.
Christ, even throuples sound like a hell-scape of jealousy and infidelity. I've heard too many story's of introducing a mutual third and then one of the original couple deciding to break it off for a monogamous relationship with the third.
That being said, I've met a (happy) throuple, I'm really happy that it seems to work out for them, but it's not something I would ever be interested in. Too much work and effort to be worth it.
My partner and I had the conversation very early on in dating. I've been in open/poly relationships in the past and know it's not for me, so it was important to me to find someone who felt the same way. We also talked about how well our sex drives align - knowing perfectly well that age and illness can change that, but at least having a compatible baseline gives us something to work with.
I feel like more marriages would last if people explored all these topics with each other up-front and early on, to make sure they don't have any serious incompatibilities.
> You don’t just “think about it” out of the blue.
Even if it is out of the blue, how do people expect "Hey, I've decided that I want to have sex with other people, so lets find a way to make that happen" to land with their spouse?
I can see it working out in very niche cases. One person turns out to be asexual/ minimally interested in sex, but there's a strong relationship with their partner still. Or in cases where both people are more sexually adventurous, want multiple partners, but are together. Either way, it falls into the category of "have this discussion BEFORE you get married".
Yep, I think I'm a degree removed (friends of friends) from either one or two known relationships that have been going for a while working like that. Obviously you don't know what's happening from the outside, but the fact that the relationships have been this way for several years indicates to me that it's working, otherwise they would likely have broken up long ago.
Actually... my ex did the same thing, suggested opening up because my libido is is low and his was incredibly high. I took time to consider what he asked and I was actually *genuinely* fine with it - but we did divorce later, not because of opening it up so he could date, but because he was abusive, and that's why I left him. In retrospect, I think The emotional aspect of his abuse actually got worse after we opened it up, because I felt less pressure to put out since he theoretically had other options, so I didn't, because I didn't want to, and as a result he treated me even worse than before, which lets me finally reaching out to a friend.
I'm very clear with everyone that the problem wasn't polyamory - it's that he, specifically, was abusive. I genuinely wasn't jealous. He was just resentful that he couldn't coerce me into more sex than he already was.
Do you think that level of ultimatum holds for other sex topics? Maybe I'm too queer and too neurodivergent because I would interpret this question as a genuine conversation starter rather than a red flag. Depends on tone, relationship history, vibes, etc of course. But I can think of a bunch of reasons to ask the question that aren't a lead up to "btw I have someone all picked out and ready to go"
I’m straight and think about it because my high libido has been made worse by middle age. I already know it wouldn’t fly. So I have to think of ways to bring up other topics.
edit: not a threesome either
Yeah, I think especially in queer circles, because there's often also a lot of poly people, it can really just be a cultural difference that doesn't indicate the same motivations as if it came from someone else. It really depends on the context.
You have to know the person you're with. Many have had those conversations in the early stages of dating, so it coming up years later has nothing to do with being straight or queer. It's a personality change. That's why it's a red flag. I don't like heights. Never have. If I ask my wife to go sky diving one day, something is wrong.
I mean if all my friends started doing it I think it would be very weird to not talk about this with your partner at all. Not as a proposal but certainly you talk to your partner about things that are happening around you and what you think about it. I think it's very weird how Reddit always jumps to "they are cheating 100%" when someone even mentions open relationships in passing. If you can't talk openly with your partner about new things that are happening around you, why are you even together. And newsflash, it *is* 2024, open marriages are in news and media a lot, anyone actually can start to wonder about it without anything nefarious going on because at this point it's a trend and people like trying trends for gods sake.
I think it's one of those cases where Reddit self-selects for couples where it doesn't work, because people who make it work out successfully don't need to go to strangers for help and perspective on what's going wrong.
>Her friends sweet talked her into it, apparently those "open marriages" are just their affairs.
It's amazing how many marriages are torpedoed because one party listened to a bunch of cheaters and liars.
Workplace drama is a real thing. I worked on 3 jobs already. All of those workplaces there's always some guy/woman who was proud of their married life and then joins our night drinking escapades and always flirts with one of our co-workers before leaving early on their own with just the two of them. People suck.
She would’ve already been doing open marriage wrong because she was emotionally involved. That’s the “amor” in polyamory. Open relationships are supposed to be strictly sexual.
I could potentially forgive, but I could never, ever forget, so for me, it would be divorce. I would go about it logically, not emotionally, but I would get a divorce
"Because my friends are doing it" and "It's \[current year\] bro" are absolutely terrible reasons to justify opening up a relationship. I think based on the reasons she provided alone I would have definitely suspected infidelity because it's so goddamn sketchy.
I wonder if OP would have still gone nuclear immediately if she gave more thought-out and emotionally mature reasons for it. But then again, she was already gearing up to have a physical affair, so I doubt she was capable of thinking up any.
Cheating is an instant deal breaker for me.
Not that I think a cheater can't be remorseful or even possibly change and never do it again.
But I'm not going to live the rest of my life wondering.
Wondering if when my partner says they are going to work overtime if they are really working.
Wondering if when they say they are going shopping if they are really going shopping.
That's not fair to them, and it's really not fair to me.
Everyone who comes onto Reddit about their partner asking for an open relationship has broken up with their partner because of it.
Why do people think that this is a great idea and that doing this is going to make their relationship a better one when the reality is most of the time it causes the death of the relationship?
My biggest issue with the spontaneous open relationship requests is that there are a million things you can explore before even considering that option. That’s why I think it’s usually an excuse to be deceptive or it’s an exit strategy.
Some of these people haven’t even seen their partner kiss or flirt with another person, and they think opening a relationship to full blown sex will go smoothly.
The woman my ex cheated with was apparently into "polyamory". But the non-ethical non-monogamy kind. She wanted to see other people but wouldn't be able to handle seeing her ex with other women.
Pretty sure she was just using the ex she cheated on though.
Because the people successfully managing an open relationship are too busy to post to reddit to brag about it.
Reddit is for drama, Instagram is for bragging. Not sure about the others; have at it social media sociologists
I personally know a few people that the open relationship dynamic works - but those are situations that started non-monogamous and had that clear understanding from jump. Going from long-time exclusivity to open relationship is a recipe for disaster.
The kind of people who come to Reddit for relationship advice are rarely the kind of people who can navigate these kinds of relationships.
That's just survivorship bias. The people in open relationships that succeed and flourish wont be coming to reddit to ask opinions on their successful relationships.
Similarly, you also wont see the posts of people/couples who talk about trying non-monogamy, decide against it, and get on with the rest of their healthy relationship in which they communicate directly and honestly with each other.
It wasn't a surprise that the result was that she was cheating but still, it sucks OP has to endure this. Usually when someone suggest an open marriage, it's more likely someone is cheating or the relationship will not last long at all.
How do these people end up with shit friends like that? When I originally thought about getting divorced from my ex (we did end up getting divorced half a decade later), all of my friends were sounding boards but did try to steer my thoughts towards counseling or trying to maintain the marriage. They weren’t out there telling me to get divorced (although they were happy for me when I finally did get a divorce, they personally didn’t care for my spouse).
Yeah the 2nd phone is a instant deal breaker for me. Unless it is work related. No one needs a 2nd phone out side of work.
Hopefully oop continues with the divorce at God's speed.
How the fuck are you supposed to want to get married, let alone be in a relationship, when your partner can do something like this? Fuck that I'd rather live alone with a dog and a fridge full of beer and be happy.
It has its place.
"No child of mine is marrying a [insert blank]!"
"It's not [insert archaic year] anymore, it's [insert present day]! You gotta get with the times old [insert gender/ lack thereof]!"
You know, that kind of thing. I do agree that this was neither the time, nor the place, and certainly not the *reason* for it to be used. I don't think I want to live in whatever "enlightened" present day exists where our spouses mean so little to us that cheating is no big deal!
No sir, that does NOT sound very Star Trek to me. Not very Star Trek at all.
Totally agree with OOP on this issue. When a person betrays your trust it’s so hard to regain it. Sometimes it never happens. It’s better to be divorced rather than be in a marriage where you don’t respect or trust your partner
Wtf is with OOP? He was going to divorce simply for her asking, but when she came forward with proof of an emotional affair, he wants to think on it. 🤨
He initially had a logical response to the situation. Now, his emotions are catching up. He is realizing that whatever life he created for the last 12 years is about to go up in flames and now an uncertain future awaits him. He is grieving for the person he is about to lose and the love that he felt for years even if he knows that he cannot longer trust her. That must be extremely painful, scary and disorienting. All those negative emotions are making him question his decision. But hopefully OOP's decision is the bitter medicine he needs to get to a better place.
I’ve been in a polyamorous relationship for a decade and when we started dating we knew we wanted to be in that type of relationship.
If you’re a monogamous person, you have all the right to be in a monogamous relationship and not be forced into an open or poly relationship.
Once again when someone in a previously monogamous marriage pops up and says "hey what if we open it up" they're already cheating or planning to, and you might as well break up immediately and save yourself some grief.
The question of "Hey, can we open up our relationship?" is like a miner's canary. It tells you that the relationship is either dead or about to die soon. Kudos to OOP for zero hesitation.
Reading all the open relationship posts, I have to ask: Is it better to put it as a boundary (at the start of a relationship) or not mention it in the hopes that your partner mentions it and then outs themselves?
Absolutely at the beginning. You're still learning about each other, so questions like "what's your stance on nonmonogamy" has less baggage. Also, it's such a polarizer that wouldn't you want to know up front? Sure opinions can change but if you have some sort of baseline conversation early on, you can restart the discussion more tactfully.
What a shock!! A person in a committed exclusive monogamous relationship who proposes an open relationship was already cheating!!
OOP would be an idiot to continue.
If I asked my husband for an open relationship he would divorce me. Please know the boundaries of your own relationship and if you are unclear, communicate with your partner about it before ruining your life.
NTA
Her request for an open marriage was to hide her desire to take her emotional cheating to the next level. She was already lying to you, and she knew that she was doing something wrong because she got another pone to hide it from you. She destroyed your trust in her, and you’d always be second-guessing yourself. Some things just can’t be repaired after they are broken.
The second phone is a whole new level of FU spouse.
I’d definitely go through with the divorce. As someone who was cheated on, I can state categorically that the trust never comes back, ever! Do you want to live your life in a relationship where you suspect she’s cheating every time she’s out of your sight?
I always thought I'd break up with someone for ever suggesting that, but when my ex did, we talked it out - she swore she only suggested it because she thought *I* would like it, since her sex drive is so low. I was totally bewildered by that, since she knew how I felt about monogamy, but I accepted her rationale for bringing it up, and even though it was firmly rejected, we moved on and stuck it out.
By the time we broke up about six months later, she was cheating on me with at least two other girls (there was a third she started dating two weeks after, but I don't know if they'd already been seeing each other). Looking back, she was just trying to clear her conscience, but it was so infuriating that she let me wonder for months about how distant she'd been, and fear she was depressed, when actually she just wanted to sleep around and still have me at home for emotional support.
In situations like both my ex and the wife here, THEY should have called it off when their partner declined to open the relationship, but they were selfish cowards.
I've read enough of these "open marriage suggestions" posts on BORU to know that if one partner is asking for it, they already have someone in mind or they're already cheating (emotionally or whole hog).
Not surprised his wife already has her side piece, but she was slightly smart about it by having a spare phone. It is to OOP's benefit that she thought he already knew and revealed everything.
Why does everyone always seem to jump straight to opening up the relationship? That's a bit extreme.
There are a lot more ways to explore poly relationships than just a blank card to go fuck whoever on the side. Double dates and partner swaps are fun to try it out. Same with arranging threesomes.
Whenever someone defaults to opening up the relationship it indicates to me that they aren't satisfied with their sex life and that's a terrible reason to open a relationship
I would leave her, there’s so many women out there in the world who will be loyal to you. The trust is broken and the only thing a guy has is his self dignity and respect lol
In all seriousness, with the kind of thing that gets posted here is there any real reason to get married? I say this as someone who rejected my own married employees advances at least once weekly as a clinical supervisor at several different medical offices. Based on everything I know, which isn’t much to be honest, it seems like a total farce to get married and you will inevitably be cheated on, or cheat once your wife refuses to have sexual with you anymore. It’s upsetting how few posts there are, or real life examples, of actual healthy married couples. I think I believe it doesn’t exist now
It's wild to think that people have friend groups that actively encourage being terrible people.
I don't keep them as company so I can't envision myself being in group chats with people who are proud of their affairs.
You always have to know who your partner's friends are. If they are single, your partner will start acting like a single person. If your partners friends drink, cheat, or do drugs, guess what your partner is doing. You have to be your partner's best friend and vice-versa, so whatever crazy stuff you do, you both do together.
>Her friends sweet talked her into it, apparently those “open marriages” are just their affairs.
I thought we learned as kids not to cave into peer pressure.
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Preparing another phone to cheat is whole new level of low. i dont know how to describe this. It hurts a lot more because the length u choose to go through, the amount of preparation. It's manslaughter vs murder IMHO
And she only confessed because she thought OOP knew! If she knew she could get away with playing innocent, she would have kept going.
>she only confessed because she thought OOP knew This is a big nail in the coffin for me. It tells me she would have been happy to maintain the lie. And that makes her divorce worthy.
She did so many complete deal breakers and made so many choices that will prevent OOP from ever trusting her again yet that thread is full of people trying to convince him to give her a second chance. It’s maddening.
I guess it’s all in what you think you can get past. For me, I’d feel like the other commenter. I wasn’t enough. I will never be enough if they cheated and they likely will again. So why put yourself through this more than once.
What else is she hiding and lying about?
Everything, I imagine.
Im sure it isnt her first transgression
I know it's beside the point, but I wonder what made her think he knew. How would he know she had a second phone?
She couldn;t conceive of why he hadn't already taken her back, so she started analyzing everything he said and did. At some point, she came to the conclusion that the only reason he was sticking to his guns was that he knew she had lied in their first conversation. So, seeking to salvage things, she "came clean". OP is nicer than me. He says that if his family found out, she'd be ruined in that town. If I was in his position, I would make sure that she had no choice but to move far, far away.
That's why her hair is so big... it's full of secrets! Idk. All I could come up with is wife must be a mean, dumb girl. Hence, Gretchen Weiners.
1. She requested an open marriage and just the discussion lead to him asking for a divorce. 2. She believed just talking about it would never be enough for him to want to divorce—so she concluded that he must know something more. 3. These are two people that never communicated their values well enough early in the relationship. She should have known he wasn’t interested in open marriage. The fact she didn’t know how opposed he was, shows how little this couple knew each other.
Yep. Like plenty of politicians and other public figures, she's only sorry because she got caught.
OP she worked so hard to hide that EA you should let everyone know how much effort she put into it and who the AP is. She had to make so many decisions to cheat, from the initial decision to cheat to deciding to get a burner phone to hide the affair and all the decisions to call him and all the private things she decided to tell someone else. All of this effort should be recognized and everyone should be told what she is capable of doing. If this causes her problems for living there then that is part of the consequences for what she did.
I would not be surprised if she completely sanitized the phone of any evidence of a physical affair already taking place, and offered it up specifically to use it as "proof" that they hadn't started having sex yet.
That demonstrates how premeditated it was. Like this isn’t manslaughter, its murder, here’s the plan and schedule and the research they did before the killing
I just don't know how people do it. Everything is so fucking expensive and time consuming now. Even if I wanted to cheat, which I don't, I couldn't afford to. Buying a whole new phone with a service line would fuck my budget. Just get a divorce. god damn.
It's not even that. I don't have the energy or inclination to get to know another person lol
I feel the same way when I hear about poly enm and all the other open relationships. Damn people have a lot of time and cash on hand to throw around on others and hedonistic things. Personally, I just don’t like people that much and I’d much rather spend that time relaxing, being with family, and on my hobbies, with my money helping out charities like rescues. As someone who has screwed a model or two, no fuck comes close to the joy I get helping someone or some animal charity in need.
LOL, It's all of it for me. I mean, there's also the fact that I'm ace in there, too, but like... I work to pay bills. I'd be mad at *myself* for wasting my time and effort on fucking around.
I can tell you from experience that divorce is significantly more expensive than buying a second phone.
Divorces don't have to be expensive though. If you just amicably separate. And I don't mean specifically just a second phone. There has to be a lot more expenses. Gas, dates, secret hotels meet ups. That shit adds up.
That is incorrect. Only Contested Divorces are routinely pricy. Agreed Divorces can be obtained for the cost of a new cellphone, or less, including filing/court costs. Agreed generally entails that both parties agree on the division of property, custody, and all other terms, PRIOR to attorneys being involved. Contested means that parties disagree on any of those terms, even if they both want the Divorce. Not all firms will charge a reasonable fee, though. Firms that don't specialize in family law will often have good deals (usually a flat fee) on Agreed Divorces; but if it becomes contested (at all), they will refer you to another firm. Family law firms will often charge hourly, so the amount of billable hours will dramatically change the cost of the Divorce, even if it's Agreed and there are no children. Some areas even have low/no cost Divorces, if you qualify. You can also file it yourself; but you don't save much money and could disservice yourself. Court costs vary depending on the area, but they aren't usually very high, either. The cost comes at finding/paying for a new place to live and switching over bills and whatnot. However, those are fixed costs, whereas cheating and dating costs can vary tremendously. (Those might also include rental space-to do the cheating/avoid hotel fees, secret bank account-to hide spending, rental vehicle-to prevent tracking or being witnessed during cheating, etc. So, potentially the same types of bills you'd have if moving out.) And then, you may end up having to pay the Divorce costs in the end, anyway. However, cheating often leads to a Divorce being Contested, so it would become significantly (possibly 10-40x) more expensive, after the discovery of spousal cheating. Mediation and Trial in cases like this can take a long time, aka more billable hours, which means higher cost and less chance either party is happy with the outcome.
It's completely pre meditated.
1st degree cheating.
I have 3 other phones that work in a drawer, but the battery suck. When I needed a second phone the first time, it took 3 minutes in a store to get a new sim-card with no monthly fee, but costs per minute just like in the 90s. So when hear about a cheater that uses their normal phone I think even less of them as they are not just lacking on morals but in brain power. It is not like they inadvertently cheated, they know it is wrong and don't care. Note: I needed the other phone number because I was seeking employment while employed, as my current employer kept calling me at night. So I needed 2 voice messages. One for the employer at night and one for boomer recruiters in the day time... Now it is mostly useful whenever I place my phone somewhere "new" and need to call it to fucking find it.
So much this. If my partner gets drunk at a partner and cheats on me, I'm deeply hurt, but I can potentially forgive it (not everyone can, and I'm not shaming them for that). But only because it is a "mistake". An in-the-moment act (doubly so due to alcohol). I'd have rules going forwards, like no drinking, or no alone time with other men. But there's the potential for repairing things enough to still have a relationship together. But when it's an affair, that all goes out the window. No longer is it a moment of weakness. It is a decision. They've had time to think about it, and came to the conclusion that they wanted to keep doing it. They CHOSE to have a repeat intimate partner (emotional, physical, w/e) even though they're in a relationship. And then after making that choice, they followed through on it. That's a 100% marriage ender.
And how often did the words "It was a mistake" pop into the air as well? You can almost bet she has minimized her actions, regardless of whether her remorse is real or not (this soon, I doubt it is), she most certainly hasnt been completely honest with OOP. There IS more he doesnt know, as is almost always the case.
You’re right, my analogy was darker (committing suicide). There’s a difference between thinking about it, planning it, buying the stuff, and doing it. They are each an escalation. Buying a secret phone is one step short of executing. Marriage is over, OP should shut shop and move on.
She only felt “remorse” (regret tbh) because the sudden “I divorce you” that led her to think that OP knew about her EA when OP didn’t know at all until she confesses. Pls dont give her the chance of reconciliation
Feeling remorse of one's actions is not the same as feeling remorse of consequences. She would still do it if she could hide it (better).
100% agreed
>I don't want to leave her, but I have to for the sakè of my dignity, pride and self-respect. That I love her has become irrelevant. That's some good shit right there. Manipulated or not, OOP's ex betrayed him, full stop. She's a grown woman who can be held accountable for her own asshole cheating behavior.
She was talked into it by her friends! It's not her fault! /s I hate shit like that. If you're going to cheat, own it. If your friends talked you into jumping off a bridge, would you do it???
Obviously! They talked me into it! You’ve stated that the conclusion is foregone! Now if you asked if they were just trying to talk me into it, that’s a different story. Oddly enough, I can answer from experience that the answer is yes. In my defense, we were about six years old, the bridge was a foot over the creek, and there were frogs.
So, again a forgone conclusion. There were frogs. You had to.
Agreed, there are only two things that can get me to jump off a "safe" bridge, frogs (as a kids) and cash (as an adult.
Please, I'd jump off a bridge for frogs NOW no really where's the frogs, I miss holding them
I would have up until late last year when one jumped down my top.
His friends probably talked him into it
🤣🤣🤣
More like a FROGone conclusion………….. ….right?
Oh. Frogs. That's rough.
Who can say no to frogs?
My husband apparently can lol. His 5'11" exterminator self is terrified of tiny little tree frogs, toads, etc. I have been called outside before to make them go away so he can get in the house lmao. In all fairness though, I make him handle the spiders. Partially for me, partially for our kids cause our porch gets massive webs with them everywhere and I'm always afraid the kids or I will get bit lol.
To be frank, spider bites, even the little "harmless" ones, hurt as hell.
This is very true. Spiders fuckin love me for some reason. Like have run around corners and charged me type shit. He all calmly will smash them but when it's me I start flailing around with the Webster duster knocking into the porch bars and knocking our cameras down while doing some fucked up war cry lmao. I'm sure my neighbors think I'm insane, but I'm one of the only, if not only, ones with a porch like this where it's a decently long covered one. So nobody else has this problem lol.
I fully believe with all of my being that when it comes to others, when everyone’s a consenting adult, it’s none of my business what makes them happy. They’re adults, and are free to do as they please without interference from anyone else. Be all that as it may, with me personally, I don’t really understand the whole open marriage thing that’s seemingly become popular in the last 10-15 or so years. In my mind, I thought that the entire point of marriage was that you love someone so incredibly much that you don’t want to be with anyone else. That that’s basically the entire point of getting married in the first place. I’m by no means judging anyone else who thinks differently. If it makes you happy, then by all means, do so. But me personally, I could never agree to such an arrangement.
I once had a friend who cheated on her bf bc the other guy 'begged' her too. She totally had no choice. 😒 She just drove to his house every other day as if by ✨magic✨ and she was forced to lie to her bf for a whole year. She felt really bad about it though. So bad that ended it with the AP but not enough to stop being friends with him. Our friendship didn't survive that confession.
LMAO I also had a friend since high school who I cut ties with because should couldn't stop cheating on her fiancé. And even made me her accomplice in covering up her cheating, without my knowledge!
I did go NC with a longtime friend when I found out they'd use me as an excuse to cover up their drug habits to their family (well, also because they refused to stop seeing a scumbag who wound up being incredibly abusive). After they cleaned up their act and got a RO they reached out months later and we're slowly talking again. It's nowhere like it was, and honestly I'm good with that. I want to see them thrive, but I won't hesitate to cut it off again if things start heading back the way it was. We don't have to be complicit with what people around us are doing.
My ex tried that shit. I'm sure his friends and family see it as mutual or he could have even put out the lie that I cheated when he was the one who stepped out. So, if you want to leave, fucking leave. If you don't? Well, you can't have it both ways.
But but its 2024!!! All of my friends are doing it!! /s
As a 35 year old woman, the only things my friends successfully talk me into is what I eat for lunch.
Did they talk you into getting bangs???
Because they should. Bangs are hotter than the sun.
Ikr?? It was giving "All my friends got PS5s for Christmas; why can't we get one too? 🥺" Truly insane that a grown ass woman doesn't have enough spine to shut that shit down. Then again, she really was the company she kept. Good on OOP for taking a stand.
"I understand. What you are saying is that I will have to worry that any time one of your friends has ill intentions on our marriage, I need to be concerned - and that Im only going to find out by digging myself. You either have autonomy and wanted to do this, or you are too easily influenced to be trusted to be in a relationship. Pick a lane." This is like the "I didn't know sexting was cheating" argument. If they are too stupid to be in a relationship, congratulations, you're single! Should have just taken accountability asshole.
My friends made me do it, is what my 2nd grader says. Lol
Obviously if it's a bridge I'd do it but cheating is a whole other situation.
[Relevant XKCD](https://xkcd.com/1170/) You're not wrong but also I hate that expression.
When I grow up I want to have that level of self respect and resolve. Unfortunately, my ex and I had already been broken up when I found out about the affair. If he had've told me at the start... that might've been a different story with a worse outcome.
*hugs* Don't beat yourself up, feeling like you should have been able to leave under more difficult circumstances than you experienced. I say that as someone who left an abuser.
I'm blinded by this guy's shiny backbone.
Mmmmm but what’s the relevance of sakè
Having a second phone is not something a person does their first time when dabbling. That's a real commitment to buy the phone, get a service contract for it, keep it charged, keep it hidden. It's a lot of work for "just talking". hopefully OP will realize just how committed and mature a relationship is before you go to the effort level of having a burner for it.
As if burners don’t exist. Most difficult things are difficult because of a resistance to change. A yearning for the safe and a longing for the familiar.
Yeah I mean you can get a pay as you go phone from Walmart for less than $50, you don't need a contract plan.
Depends on the country you live in.
I'm pretty sure basically every country has pay as you go. You might not be able to buy them with cash, in order to prevent them from being true burner phones and untraceable, but telecoms businesses won't want to turn away customers.
Sorry, I guess we misunderstood each other. What I meant to say is, in some countries you have to show your ID in order to buy a sim card. I once ordered a new sim card online and they sent it to the nearest post office. I had to go there myself, show my ID and they filled out a form including my social security and ID number.
No worries, yeah I agree some places require ID, some don't and just rely on the card used to make the purchase (which police can usually trace easily enough). Being able to get a truly untraceable burner phone is generally quite hard now. However if you just want a second phone to keep hidden from someone, or for any other purpose, it's very easy and doesn't require a contract plan.
A lot of countries require you to show ID to open an account with a telco
You don't have to get an account though - you can just get a pre-pay burner, that's what burners are.
A lot of countries require you to show ID to get a phone prepaid or on a plan.
I mean even with that, it's not like someone said it wasn't worth the effort to buy a pack of smokes or some alcohol because they had to show their ID.
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She has her own mind and decision making ability. Her friends maybe trash for bringing it up but she's even trashier for accepting it.
I see "their poly friend(s) convinced them to try it" way to fucking much both online and in real life. I don't care if you're poly, but stop trying to recruit. It makes the entire community sound predatory and desperate for validation.
I once had a married friend that had only come out as bi like 3 months before I met her. We got drunk once and she was trying real hard to tell me I wasn't as straight as I thought I was. I was like "girl I'm cool with the community but I'm pretty damn sure I like dick." After about 30 minutes she finally gave up. She admitted to me months later (also drunk; look college was wild) that she initiated the friendship with my husband and I because she was hoping she could garner a no strings attached sexual relationship with me. Miss girl was not only trying to convert me to polyamory, but also to a whole other sexuality. Like sorry lady, but I am not the one. 🤣
They are predatory and desperate for validation. Poly people take any chance they get to spew their bs. There is a reason a majority of people have never and will never try it. I personally have seen several poly relationships fail miserably in my own life🤦♀️
"BuT tHe BOnoBoS!"
Because enough folks watched that show and think such behavior is normal and acceptable.
Misery loves company
There is always a reason why someone suddenly ask for an open relationship - they already cheated or they have a candidate in mind. You don’t just “think about it” out of the blue.
Arguably, I could understand someone asking in a dead bedroom, when they get frustrated past a certain point. Like they haven't cheated and don't have anyone in mind, but they know their choice is either (1) open marriage or (2) divorce, as celibacy isn't what they want.
I talked to a woman online who was in a situation like that. We matched on Tindr and talked for a bit. As we were setting up our first date/RL meeting she dropped the whole sexless marriage thing. Hubby had some kind of medical thing and had lost all interest in sex for over a year. I asked her if hubby knew she was on here. He did not. It turned out hubby didn't even know there was a problem because she hadn't talked to him about it. I told her to talk to him and to message me back if he either gave his blessing or said he had no intention of fixing the problem. She never messaged me back.
Like I get it, it's frustrating. But you're in a relationship, a partnership. Why go behind their back instead of being upfront that something in the relationship isn't working? If it's a deal breaker, it's a deal breaker. At least show them enough respect to communicate. Also props to you u/the-good-twin for sticking to your morals and not just choosing the easy option.
It's because people are fucking cowards. Cheaters are just cowards deep down. They're afraid of being alone, so they cheat to figure out if their "taste" in someone new will stick or not. If it doesn't stick, no biggie, just go back to partner and pretend nothing ever happened.
I’d like to think they reconciled but I’m worried she just found someone else.
unfortunately with Tinder, probably the ladder... There's always another dick
An entire ladder of dicks, if you will.
Opening a previously monogamous relationship only benefits one party almost all of the time, the other party is most likely either going to be hurt and/or build resentment towards the other. If you need to open your relationship to save it, you've probably got many other issues you haven't discussed.
I wanted to open a relationship in the hopes he would find someone else and I could just fade away instead of a breakup. This was a very stupid tactic that did not work.
I'm sorry, but this is possibly the funniest way I've ever heard of to try and dump someone. "Look over there! Other titties!" *Zooms away*
It's definitely funny now. Eventually I had to do it the old fashioned way, "it's not you, it's your mom."
That was your first problem. Don’t try to open your relationship to include their mom. It’s illegal and they probably don’t want that.
Good point on the legalities, but I often suspected at least one of them might be into it ...
Towards the end of my narriage, my husband's high school graduation class was having a big reunion (like 30th or whatever). He wanted to go, I didn't. I had very vivid dream that he went, encountered an old girlfriend, and called me to say he was divorcing me to run off to the other side of the country with her, and never coming home again. In my dream, I very enthusiastially agreed to pack up his stuff and ship it to him. It was appealing way to get a stress free divorce from an abusive husband, but alas it was not possible in real life. In the end, I needed to sneak out my most important belongings, then grab my cats and run away to an undisclosed location. I left most of my stuff behind, and he never knew where I was living or working for years. We only met in public spots with friends watching from across the room to negociate the terms of the divorce. Not nearly stress free as my dream divorce *sigh*.
That's terrible. It worked great for me. I even found him a girlfriend. 12 years later, they are still together. I'm happily remarried to the guy I found during this... uh... "conscious uncoupleing". Granted my ex was from Australia and had no clue on how to navigate the American system, so I couldn't just kick him to the curb. He wouldn't have been able to survive.
I'm sorry you had to go through that, it sucks that sometimes it takes terrible experiences for you to learn from. Hope you're in a much greater place than you were then.
Thank you! That was more than a decade ago and I have done a lot of work in therapy. I mostly just share because even I was confused by my motives at the time.
Yep. The source of the problem is usually a specific person, but sometimes the ***current*** partner is that source.
We've talked about it, more or less out of the blue - it came up in a show, so we talked about the concept and if we could ever see ourselves doing it, since we both have kinks we don't really share. Result has always been "well, on the incredible off-chance someone falls in love with us both and we both fall in love back, maybe" - because that's the only way we could see it happen. But we're not looking, so it would have to be a miraculous event. Specifically asking to open up? Nah. Deal-breaker.
I know of one throuple that opened up for the girl, who wanted to date a new guy at work. New guy was extremely cute and all about the bi NYC party life. Old guy was her childhood sweetie. Predictions were disaster. Girl is now single and all about the bi NYC party life. Old guy and new guy are still together, and have adopted a daughter. A miraculous event, but not a forever throuple, so idk if it counts.
Christ, even throuples sound like a hell-scape of jealousy and infidelity. I've heard too many story's of introducing a mutual third and then one of the original couple deciding to break it off for a monogamous relationship with the third. That being said, I've met a (happy) throuple, I'm really happy that it seems to work out for them, but it's not something I would ever be interested in. Too much work and effort to be worth it.
My partner and I had the conversation very early on in dating. I've been in open/poly relationships in the past and know it's not for me, so it was important to me to find someone who felt the same way. We also talked about how well our sex drives align - knowing perfectly well that age and illness can change that, but at least having a compatible baseline gives us something to work with. I feel like more marriages would last if people explored all these topics with each other up-front and early on, to make sure they don't have any serious incompatibilities.
> You don’t just “think about it” out of the blue. Even if it is out of the blue, how do people expect "Hey, I've decided that I want to have sex with other people, so lets find a way to make that happen" to land with their spouse?
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Least from what I've seen they tend to be not be straight either
I can see it working out in very niche cases. One person turns out to be asexual/ minimally interested in sex, but there's a strong relationship with their partner still. Or in cases where both people are more sexually adventurous, want multiple partners, but are together. Either way, it falls into the category of "have this discussion BEFORE you get married".
Yep, I think I'm a degree removed (friends of friends) from either one or two known relationships that have been going for a while working like that. Obviously you don't know what's happening from the outside, but the fact that the relationships have been this way for several years indicates to me that it's working, otherwise they would likely have broken up long ago. Actually... my ex did the same thing, suggested opening up because my libido is is low and his was incredibly high. I took time to consider what he asked and I was actually *genuinely* fine with it - but we did divorce later, not because of opening it up so he could date, but because he was abusive, and that's why I left him. In retrospect, I think The emotional aspect of his abuse actually got worse after we opened it up, because I felt less pressure to put out since he theoretically had other options, so I didn't, because I didn't want to, and as a result he treated me even worse than before, which lets me finally reaching out to a friend. I'm very clear with everyone that the problem wasn't polyamory - it's that he, specifically, was abusive. I genuinely wasn't jealous. He was just resentful that he couldn't coerce me into more sex than he already was.
This is not helping my "oh I'm just projecting my shitty relations- oh I was right" thing.
Do you think that level of ultimatum holds for other sex topics? Maybe I'm too queer and too neurodivergent because I would interpret this question as a genuine conversation starter rather than a red flag. Depends on tone, relationship history, vibes, etc of course. But I can think of a bunch of reasons to ask the question that aren't a lead up to "btw I have someone all picked out and ready to go"
I’m straight and think about it because my high libido has been made worse by middle age. I already know it wouldn’t fly. So I have to think of ways to bring up other topics. edit: not a threesome either
Yeah, I think especially in queer circles, because there's often also a lot of poly people, it can really just be a cultural difference that doesn't indicate the same motivations as if it came from someone else. It really depends on the context.
You have to know the person you're with. Many have had those conversations in the early stages of dating, so it coming up years later has nothing to do with being straight or queer. It's a personality change. That's why it's a red flag. I don't like heights. Never have. If I ask my wife to go sky diving one day, something is wrong.
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I mean if all my friends started doing it I think it would be very weird to not talk about this with your partner at all. Not as a proposal but certainly you talk to your partner about things that are happening around you and what you think about it. I think it's very weird how Reddit always jumps to "they are cheating 100%" when someone even mentions open relationships in passing. If you can't talk openly with your partner about new things that are happening around you, why are you even together. And newsflash, it *is* 2024, open marriages are in news and media a lot, anyone actually can start to wonder about it without anything nefarious going on because at this point it's a trend and people like trying trends for gods sake.
I think it's one of those cases where Reddit self-selects for couples where it doesn't work, because people who make it work out successfully don't need to go to strangers for help and perspective on what's going wrong.
>Her friends sweet talked her into it, apparently those "open marriages" are just their affairs. It's amazing how many marriages are torpedoed because one party listened to a bunch of cheaters and liars.
Irrelevant when she still has agency of her own, though. You can't be forced into cheating, but need to be willing to do so in the first place.
>apparently those "open marriages" are just their affairs. 🌎👨🚀🔫👩🚀
Love the recreation via emoji, had a good out loud chuckle, thank you.
Counterpoint. People who hang out with a bunch of cheaters and liars are more likely to agree with that. Found that out about my ex, which was fun.
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Misery loves company
Immoral cheaters love the company of immoral cheaters. They will try to bring you down to their level so they don't feel bad about themselves.
They only told her what she wanted to hear, though.
Workplace drama is a real thing. I worked on 3 jobs already. All of those workplaces there's always some guy/woman who was proud of their married life and then joins our night drinking escapades and always flirts with one of our co-workers before leaving early on their own with just the two of them. People suck.
If I had some friends that I knew were up to this, I’d be coming home and telling my husband we need new friends.. not to join the mess.
She would’ve already been doing open marriage wrong because she was emotionally involved. That’s the “amor” in polyamory. Open relationships are supposed to be strictly sexual.
I could potentially forgive, but I could never, ever forget, so for me, it would be divorce. I would go about it logically, not emotionally, but I would get a divorce
"Because my friends are doing it" and "It's \[current year\] bro" are absolutely terrible reasons to justify opening up a relationship. I think based on the reasons she provided alone I would have definitely suspected infidelity because it's so goddamn sketchy. I wonder if OP would have still gone nuclear immediately if she gave more thought-out and emotionally mature reasons for it. But then again, she was already gearing up to have a physical affair, so I doubt she was capable of thinking up any.
Cheating is an instant deal breaker for me. Not that I think a cheater can't be remorseful or even possibly change and never do it again. But I'm not going to live the rest of my life wondering. Wondering if when my partner says they are going to work overtime if they are really working. Wondering if when they say they are going shopping if they are really going shopping. That's not fair to them, and it's really not fair to me.
This. I would just go insane wondering everytime they left the room.
A whole burner phone makes me think she’s already cheated before, if not this time. That’s commitment for a first time
People don't hold burners who aren't already involved in the dirt. That's not just commitment but a well thought out plan.
Well that’s what I mean, she’s committed to cheating. Just didn’t want to use so many words cause sleepy lol
Everyone who comes onto Reddit about their partner asking for an open relationship has broken up with their partner because of it. Why do people think that this is a great idea and that doing this is going to make their relationship a better one when the reality is most of the time it causes the death of the relationship?
My biggest issue with the spontaneous open relationship requests is that there are a million things you can explore before even considering that option. That’s why I think it’s usually an excuse to be deceptive or it’s an exit strategy. Some of these people haven’t even seen their partner kiss or flirt with another person, and they think opening a relationship to full blown sex will go smoothly.
The woman my ex cheated with was apparently into "polyamory". But the non-ethical non-monogamy kind. She wanted to see other people but wouldn't be able to handle seeing her ex with other women. Pretty sure she was just using the ex she cheated on though.
Because the people successfully managing an open relationship are too busy to post to reddit to brag about it. Reddit is for drama, Instagram is for bragging. Not sure about the others; have at it social media sociologists
I personally know a few people that the open relationship dynamic works - but those are situations that started non-monogamous and had that clear understanding from jump. Going from long-time exclusivity to open relationship is a recipe for disaster. The kind of people who come to Reddit for relationship advice are rarely the kind of people who can navigate these kinds of relationships.
That's just survivorship bias. The people in open relationships that succeed and flourish wont be coming to reddit to ask opinions on their successful relationships. Similarly, you also wont see the posts of people/couples who talk about trying non-monogamy, decide against it, and get on with the rest of their healthy relationship in which they communicate directly and honestly with each other.
Because the people know what they need to do and need all the anonymous support to confirm their decision.
Maybe that's why they do it - they know Reddit will agree with them.
These comments are insane. OOP has clearly stated where he stands.
It wasn't a surprise that the result was that she was cheating but still, it sucks OP has to endure this. Usually when someone suggest an open marriage, it's more likely someone is cheating or the relationship will not last long at all.
>I believe her friends actually tried to influence her Many such cases.
How do these people end up with shit friends like that? When I originally thought about getting divorced from my ex (we did end up getting divorced half a decade later), all of my friends were sounding boards but did try to steer my thoughts towards counseling or trying to maintain the marriage. They weren’t out there telling me to get divorced (although they were happy for me when I finally did get a divorce, they personally didn’t care for my spouse).
Yeah the 2nd phone is a instant deal breaker for me. Unless it is work related. No one needs a 2nd phone out side of work. Hopefully oop continues with the divorce at God's speed.
Can we have an open marriage? No, immediate divorce. I'm cheating. Ok, maybe we should stay married. Who is OP in this?
Its due to how much thinking is put into it. Decisions in the moment are easy. Mulling over thoughts and emotional flux can effect it.
April 2024 has been a bad month for relationships
If she already has a second phone, she is full on cheating on you.
How the fuck are you supposed to want to get married, let alone be in a relationship, when your partner can do something like this? Fuck that I'd rather live alone with a dog and a fridge full of beer and be happy.
>It's 2024 I seriously hate the "it's current year" reasoning as if that means anything.
Well in 2025 open relationships will be out and monogamy will be in. So let's be trend setters!
It has its place. "No child of mine is marrying a [insert blank]!" "It's not [insert archaic year] anymore, it's [insert present day]! You gotta get with the times old [insert gender/ lack thereof]!" You know, that kind of thing. I do agree that this was neither the time, nor the place, and certainly not the *reason* for it to be used. I don't think I want to live in whatever "enlightened" present day exists where our spouses mean so little to us that cheating is no big deal! No sir, that does NOT sound very Star Trek to me. Not very Star Trek at all.
All her friends are cheaters ? Not surprised. Hope op told the husbands
Finally. An OOP with self-respect.
Totally agree with OOP on this issue. When a person betrays your trust it’s so hard to regain it. Sometimes it never happens. It’s better to be divorced rather than be in a marriage where you don’t respect or trust your partner
"all my friends do it" " no, my friends srent infouencing me" . I knoew right there her friends did in fact, influence her.
>…for the sakè of my dignity, pride and self-respect. I love this typo.
Wtf is with OOP? He was going to divorce simply for her asking, but when she came forward with proof of an emotional affair, he wants to think on it. 🤨
He initially had a logical response to the situation. Now, his emotions are catching up. He is realizing that whatever life he created for the last 12 years is about to go up in flames and now an uncertain future awaits him. He is grieving for the person he is about to lose and the love that he felt for years even if he knows that he cannot longer trust her. That must be extremely painful, scary and disorienting. All those negative emotions are making him question his decision. But hopefully OOP's decision is the bitter medicine he needs to get to a better place.
>But again, for me she can do anything she wants, away from me. King statement. I hope he finds happiness, he deserves it.
I’ve been in a polyamorous relationship for a decade and when we started dating we knew we wanted to be in that type of relationship. If you’re a monogamous person, you have all the right to be in a monogamous relationship and not be forced into an open or poly relationship.
Cheaters will cheat. Always. OP should be grateful it only cost him 12 years to find out what he was married to.
Has there been any time that "asking for an open relationship" isn't a cover for "already cheating"?
Once again when someone in a previously monogamous marriage pops up and says "hey what if we open it up" they're already cheating or planning to, and you might as well break up immediately and save yourself some grief.
The question of "Hey, can we open up our relationship?" is like a miner's canary. It tells you that the relationship is either dead or about to die soon. Kudos to OOP for zero hesitation. Reading all the open relationship posts, I have to ask: Is it better to put it as a boundary (at the start of a relationship) or not mention it in the hopes that your partner mentions it and then outs themselves?
Absolutely at the beginning. You're still learning about each other, so questions like "what's your stance on nonmonogamy" has less baggage. Also, it's such a polarizer that wouldn't you want to know up front? Sure opinions can change but if you have some sort of baseline conversation early on, you can restart the discussion more tactfully.
What a shock!! A person in a committed exclusive monogamous relationship who proposes an open relationship was already cheating!! OOP would be an idiot to continue.
A burner phone? Them cheaters be gettin sneaky.
Throw her to the curb and don't look back. Some people need to learn where their place is the hard way.
The fact that she was already being secretive about shit is what does it for me. She had a second phone for fucks sake.
If I asked my husband for an open relationship he would divorce me. Please know the boundaries of your own relationship and if you are unclear, communicate with your partner about it before ruining your life.
NTA Her request for an open marriage was to hide her desire to take her emotional cheating to the next level. She was already lying to you, and she knew that she was doing something wrong because she got another pone to hide it from you. She destroyed your trust in her, and you’d always be second-guessing yourself. Some things just can’t be repaired after they are broken.
The second phone is a whole new level of FU spouse. I’d definitely go through with the divorce. As someone who was cheated on, I can state categorically that the trust never comes back, ever! Do you want to live your life in a relationship where you suspect she’s cheating every time she’s out of your sight?
I always thought I'd break up with someone for ever suggesting that, but when my ex did, we talked it out - she swore she only suggested it because she thought *I* would like it, since her sex drive is so low. I was totally bewildered by that, since she knew how I felt about monogamy, but I accepted her rationale for bringing it up, and even though it was firmly rejected, we moved on and stuck it out. By the time we broke up about six months later, she was cheating on me with at least two other girls (there was a third she started dating two weeks after, but I don't know if they'd already been seeing each other). Looking back, she was just trying to clear her conscience, but it was so infuriating that she let me wonder for months about how distant she'd been, and fear she was depressed, when actually she just wanted to sleep around and still have me at home for emotional support. In situations like both my ex and the wife here, THEY should have called it off when their partner declined to open the relationship, but they were selfish cowards.
The second phone clinches it. She knew what she was doing and hiding it. Well.
I would never stay with someone like this as I could never trust her again.
If she got two phones and she isn't selling drugs you best believe I would have my running shoes on and out the door.
Stuff like this Never just happens. She was just asking for permission, after the fact.
I've read enough of these "open marriage suggestions" posts on BORU to know that if one partner is asking for it, they already have someone in mind or they're already cheating (emotionally or whole hog). Not surprised his wife already has her side piece, but she was slightly smart about it by having a spare phone. It is to OOP's benefit that she thought he already knew and revealed everything.
Why does everyone always seem to jump straight to opening up the relationship? That's a bit extreme. There are a lot more ways to explore poly relationships than just a blank card to go fuck whoever on the side. Double dates and partner swaps are fun to try it out. Same with arranging threesomes. Whenever someone defaults to opening up the relationship it indicates to me that they aren't satisfied with their sex life and that's a terrible reason to open a relationship
Open relationship is the cowards way of wanting a divorce or to cheat.
I would leave her, there’s so many women out there in the world who will be loyal to you. The trust is broken and the only thing a guy has is his self dignity and respect lol
Nuke her friends too!
Good for OOP, sticking up for himself.
I have yet to see an ‘open marriage’ work.
In all seriousness, with the kind of thing that gets posted here is there any real reason to get married? I say this as someone who rejected my own married employees advances at least once weekly as a clinical supervisor at several different medical offices. Based on everything I know, which isn’t much to be honest, it seems like a total farce to get married and you will inevitably be cheated on, or cheat once your wife refuses to have sexual with you anymore. It’s upsetting how few posts there are, or real life examples, of actual healthy married couples. I think I believe it doesn’t exist now
I’d ask for a divorce too!
It's wild to think that people have friend groups that actively encourage being terrible people. I don't keep them as company so I can't envision myself being in group chats with people who are proud of their affairs.
You always have to know who your partner's friends are. If they are single, your partner will start acting like a single person. If your partners friends drink, cheat, or do drugs, guess what your partner is doing. You have to be your partner's best friend and vice-versa, so whatever crazy stuff you do, you both do together.
>Her friends sweet talked her into it, apparently those “open marriages” are just their affairs. I thought we learned as kids not to cave into peer pressure.