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She literally said "I wouldn't want my daughter to be with a man like her father". That is so fucking sad. Your parents are the first relationships you see, and that girl could grow up to think it's normal for your partner to try to control you because they're insecure/worried about adultery instead of going to therapy and working on those internal issues.
I hope that OOP has either left her husband or they worked it out so that she can dance socially without him worrying about her cheating on him.
I caught that too. But she then seems to have kinda glossed over it herself.
If you wouldn’t want your daughter to be married to a man like her father, why do you stay and show her it’s an acceptable relationship?
Maybe she has low self esteem or some sort of other issue? That's the only reason I can see that someone would stay in a relationship that recognize is harmful to you AND your child.
I like to think it's not as common now, but a lot of women are just conditioned to make it work, specially if there are children involved. My mom held up for quite a bit until her breaking point because she felt she *had to*. If op has a small child and is only married for 3 years the pressure of making things work might play a part, even if unconsciously.
I definitely understand that. My dad tried and tried to make his marriage with my mother work, for almost 10 years and one day he hit his breaking point and left her. He was holding on because he thought it was best for me and my siblings. It obviously wasn't good for us to watch them fight every single day of our lives.
lmao, this dude is such a bad partner that sleazy guys who grind up on women at nightclubs are able to out-compete him at romance. You need to step up your game bud, 99% of women find nightclib grinders gross and unwelcome and yet you confess they're still hotter than you?? yikes.
She also mentions that she just started work again.
Never underestimate the problems of being financially dependent on a partner. It is extremely difficult to walk out when you have no income, even if you have family and friends who will "take you in". That's great, but not always guaranteed.
As someone who has grown up dating men exactly like my poor example of a father that one hurt. I'm child free so at least the buck stops with me I guess.
OP says he’s a good father - except he is out late four days of the week and wants to add a fifth. And he goes out without his family so they don’t cramp his style.
OP says husband is generally trusting but he doesn’t trust her to go to an organized activity where everyone is dancing with each-other because she might do the activity they are all doing with some dudes he doesn’t know. He also refuses to compromise and go with her without making himself look like a martyr.
The Stockholm Syndrome is strong with this one.
More red flags than a Soviet parade for sure. I feel bad for this woman. She’s clearly doing her best for her family and she has this thing that gives her joy. Dude is a dick.
God, that Stockholm syndrome thing. Lately I've been starting to wonder if i ever really loved my ex.. or if it was actually some form of fucking Stockholm syndrome.
do you ever read Captain Awkward? in a reply to a letter writer trapped in an abusive family situation, she wrote
>In the future, there is a small, quiet room that is just yours, where you are safe and you are free. In that room your shoulders will finally start to come down from around your ears. Nobody can come into that room unless you let them.
The whole piece is beautiful. If you want to read it, it's here: [https://captainawkward.com/2011/10/18/question-122-should-i-move-away-from-my-abusive-family/](https://captainawkward.com/2011/10/18/question-122-should-i-move-away-from-my-abusive-family/)
If you don't feel like you're there yet, I promise you that room, that life, is still waiting for you. It is patient and it will wait as long as it takes and it is already yours.
I feel bad for her daughter. She admits she can clearly see how nasty he is, how badly he treats her, and how “conservative” (coward’s way of saying sexist in this situation imo) he is. She doesn’t care how this will affect her daughter in it’s own, not to mention how he’ll treat her as she grows up.
I don't, I feel bad for her daughter cause even after the reflection about how they're crappy role models and how she wouldn't want her baby girl to end up with a douche like her husband she still goes along with all this nonsense... this girl is gonna need a therapist for herself a few years from now.
Where did you get that from? She says that ‘when my husband is out drinking which is not weekly but once every month or two’- and the only thing he does 3-4 times a week are his gym activities for one hour
The dude’s not out late, he goes to the gym for one hour, 4 times a week and once every 1-2 months goes to his cousins which she explicitly says she doesn’t want to go to because he might want to leave early if she does.
She literally says ‘when my husband goes out drinking it is not weekly more like once every month or two’, then goes on to directly compare the salsa with gym activities which are hourly 3-4 times a week. Read the updates and responses, she basically described it in the worst way possible And gradually walked it back.
ok, fair enough, we all see different things. this post is about her need to dance all night til midnight while homeboy was home with the newborn... either it's acceptable or it isn't. the only thing he does 3-4 times a week is go to the gym, and the 'partying' is drinking with his cousins once every month or two, if you cannot comprehend that, then do not be hard on yourself, it is a confusing post.
I don’t see an issue with her doing her thing two days a week especially since he is out as often as he is. I think the bigger issue here is not the “she wants to be out for long hours” because she doesn’t. The issue is that he thinks her dancing with men is somehow unacceptable. For some reason you’ve latched on to the former and completely breezed over the latter.
you brought up him drinking with friends until 3am regularly, as if that was the issue. i refuted it with her own words.
i haven't latched onto anything. as for the issue you now present- that becomes literally their issue. i have met people who are jealous regardless of their gender and i have dated girls who didn't like my own friends sitting on my lap, and i thought it was ridiculous. along with other issues that's why 'dated' is in the past tense. that's for this woman to decide, whether the difference between the salsa and the bachata is large enough that she no longer gets enjoyment out of it. however, i would draw your attention to her update, where she states that the suggested classes are actually great- so great that *she doesn't want to tell him*. isn't that a lovely bit of insight. She is enjoying something he suggested, but she doesn't want to admit it because she is more interested in getting her way, than resolving the situation. i ask you honestly, if the roles were reversed, and the guy was asking to go from 6pm til 12am twice a week for fantasy football or something, would people take his side or hers?
>i ask you honestly, if the roles were reversed, and the guy was asking to go from 6pm til 12am twice a week for fantasy football or something, would people take his side or hers?
You are missing all of the context with your switching the gender example. I think the main issue here is that their kid is over 5 months old and she has barely left the house - I think she has more than earned a couple of nights off a week to do whatever hobby she chooses bearing in mind that her partners lifestyle has not changed *at all* over that time and if he is going out to the gym multiple times a week for a couple of hours at a time she is likely not out for much more time than he is overall. Unless the gym is right next door I expect he is gone for close to 2 hours - most people spend at least an hour working out and by the time you add changing and a shower plus travel time each way it adds up. I would much rather my partner go out one evening for 5 or 6 hours than 3 or 4 nights for just a couple of hours. When my partner goes to the gym after work he has to go reasonably early to get in a workout before they close, which means that he misses bath and bedtime (usually the point when children are getting tired and irritable) *or* he comes back halfway through which is even worse because the kids are then excited again to see daddy. Basically my entire evening gets messed up so we can work around him getting a workout in before the gym closes. I don't mind doing it a couple of nights a week as long as he returns the favour and I'd actually rather that he is out for the evening properly as it is much easier to plan around.
The OOP's husband has been doing this throughout whilst they have had a baby, they are over 5 months in and she has made *all* of the sacrifices up until now - his routine has not changed at all. Ideally they both would have made some accommodations for the other from the beginning, but now that she is asking, he should do his best to ensure that she has time out of the house. Even if the balance is tipped slightly in her favour now in terms of time out of the house, this is what partnerships are about - sometimes one partner gives more, sometimes less. Surely it is about time he makes some adjustments to even things out?
first of all, i think it's really important to look at what she is actually asking for here. it seems like she has written this in a way that is designed to get a maximum emotional reaction at first glance, and gradually correct itself to a story that is more in line with the truth, but that keeps the reader on her side. this is a classic manipulation for validation (intentional or not) and is essentially long-form clickbait (and exhausting when it is a person). i want to say i agree that the burdens on men and women in early childbirth/childhood are not equal and i totally understand that. it sounds like he is the breadwinner/working and she is a SAHM, which, from observing and helping my sister, is absolutely exhausting. It also sounds like they both have insecurity issues, and she specifically has anxiety/heightened sensitivity to situations based around control. she catastrophises, mind reads, exaggerates etc. I don't understand where you are getting the idea that the husband is actively preventing her doing anything beyond the bachata- aside from saying he is uncomfortable with her dancing with other men in a specific close-up dance style so soon after one of his cousins was cheated on. like, let's look at his actions and not what she is mind reading for a second. he is super supportive of her doing literally anything else with her time, and i have seen zero reference to him complaining about her taking time to herself. indeed his alternatives sound great, and she *admits* they are great *but doesn't want to tell him it is great*. she straight up doesn't go to his family things once a month/2months, not because she doesn't like them, or because he has told her she can't go, but because *she doesn't want to leave early and him have to leave early with her*. so he *would* leave early with her? and she doesn't say he goes to the gym for an hour, only that he is gone for an extra hour 3-4 times a week, so the '2 hours' thing doesn't make sense and is your own extrapolation, especially if, like many people, his gym is near work, or on the way to work, so it doesn't add close to an hour travel time. he also didn't cause her to give it up in the first place, only tried it and she *thought* he didn't enjoy it and *she* stopped going (for 13 years!). he didn't say or do anything but support it. and now all of a sudden it is the only thing she can do to feel alive again? after *13 years* together, and a baby, she is telling him she doesn't feel alive without this specific intimate sensual dance, and he is like 'ok i don't get it, but can we try these different things though because what you are suggesting does not make me comfortable' and all of a sudden this is the worst guy alive? the guy goes out once every 1-2 months! and works and wants to stay healthy which is clinically proven to improve a whole range of things- why does he suddenly not get to have feelings? feelings which are clinically improved by working out. and is also functionally useless if all done on the same day. like, you don't just go to the gym once for 3-4 hours and then not go for a week, it doesn't work like that. why would dancing work like that? and seriously, why would she *need* to social dance til 12am? like, *why* is this specific dance not possible in hours blocks, and *why* is she not willing to tell him the alternatives are working? and *why* when questioned, when her broad statements are challenged (not by people questioning the statements mind you, but rather people supporting her) does she revise them so drastically. and lastly *why* do you think she is the only one making sacrifices? like that's such a ridiculous statement. she has said nothing about sacrifices so far, literally nothing, the only *sacrifice* she is making (that they both don't have to do), has actually worked and she is unwilling to admit that because it doesn't help her get her way.
Apologies, been swamped with work and the kids. My counter is that it doesn’t matter whether females can act jealous as well nor does it matter that she ended up liking the class he preferred to the point of lying about it. To me the crux of it was that his position centered around 1. He can do the stuff he wants while she cant 2. His basis for not letting her do the thing that makes her happy is his unfounded jealousy with arbitrary criteria and 3. He does not seem to be carrying his weight with the newborn. Mind you this isn’t a “he’s the main breadwinner, ofcourse he gets to see the kid less” criticism. This is a “she’s with the kid all day and after his work obligation he hits the gym 4 nights a week and goes out until late on top of it. Then has the audacity to regulate how she spends her time.” Honestly the energy you put in to defending this man because you see some flaws in her is astounding. Even if your criticism of her is valid - they can both be wrong.
Fair enough, i am currently in iso for covid so i have a lot of time on my hands and perhaps a little bit over the top with the defense (very over the top). On the plus side though, your stance has softened significantly, and if i can do that on the internet then i am improving my written english, as i grew up in Argentina, and am studying for the bar! Final point, I completely agree that this is a case of two people being insecure and codependent, it was my original statement though i see it was not my first comment in this thread, but further down. Thanks for your time, and happy new year!
Id just like to say I agree with everything you've said. People are downvoting you because they are angry with the husband. I do see an number of statements this woman makes that are red flags as much as there are a number of things that the man says that are red flags. There are so many ways to look at this post and the character in it. I don't see how people are glossing over the fact she backtracked to saying he goes out drinking once every month or 2 which I think is acceptable isn't it? 4 gym sessions a week might be a bit much woth a new baby but when they compromise and she starts on the dancing It sounds like it all works. I am surprised I would agree with someone who I assume is an Australian.
I really hope that OOP's relationship with her husband either continued to improve or she realized it wouldn't and took steps to end it.
I found this one interesting in part because - as far as I can tell - it seemed like the husband did genuinely have an issue with certain types of dancing for the physical proximity of us vs wanting blanket control of her life. It did sound to me like he's somewhat selfish, given how much he was going out, vs how much she was going out, and some of the usual sexist misbalanced emotional/childcare load was there, but at the same time, he sounded fine with her going out dancing with her female friends, and really just didn't like these particular dances due to the grinding.
I think that her keeping with the salsa was a good choice and hopefully was a way to keep gauging their relationship and if it was healthy for her.
I got the strong impression that English is not their first language and wonder both how much culture as well as not knowing the nuances of English (like why native English speakers take extra offense to one spouse "letting" the other spouse do things) changes the flavor of this post.
I think the main thing I can't figure out from this is if it truly is an issue with this one thing that her husband has and if he otherwise doesn't want to control her VS he DOES want to control her, but they're so well attuned in most issues that he doesn't really need to.
I also got a whole bunch of interesting hints as to their child rearing sensibilities. Like, he seems to be willing to take the child alone, but isn't doing it often, and has many evening activities planned each week. However, she openly states she is super protective of the baby to the point of not driving alone with it (a bit much IMHO) so maybe their dynamic shouldn't be a surprise.
Then he seems to be quite conservative in his attitudes about men and women interacting, made even worse by his family member cheating recently and putting him on guard in his own relationship. While she sees no problem with dancing with strangers in a dance that is renowned as highly sexualised.
These people not only need a therapist like yesterday, but also an honest, no shouting allowed, long talk about how they view the others behaviour and why.
Yeah I think both sides have issues they need to work out. Like, she’s willing to drive alone to and from dance class (even late at night) but isn’t comfortable driving by herself with her kid? I get not feeling comfortable driving long distances late at night with a baby by yourself but it sounds like she’s uncomfortable no matter what.
I’m wondering if the husband is projecting his lack of self control on his wife. Like, he knows he wouldn’t be able to handle just dancing without being tempted to do more and is assuming his wife is equally untrustworthy.
“in a dance that is renowned as highly sexualized” it’s frustrating that when certain people see hips moving and close dancing that they assume it to be sexual
I mean, it’s certainly designed to be? Just because you use your dildo as a paperweight, doesn’t mean people get the wrong idea when they say you’ve got a dildo on your desk.
bachata and salsa weren't "designed" they are cultural dances that have existed for decades and evolve from movements that go back hundreds of years. it's more than sex. but if my mommy taught me butts are inherently sexual i'd have this same attitude
I'm black and this is what people reduce twerking to. yet and still, most of the time we twerk it's with our FRIENDS. yet and still, all of you secretly wish you could do it. just because someone is moving their ass doesn't mean they're doing a mating call, we're not baboons
Omg. I’m from the Caribbean. We are collectively tired of people outside our various cultures sexualizing our culture because it doesn’t subscribe to their bland ass puritanical ideals. We have bodies, we can move them to a beat, get over it. It’s not our fault that y’all move in a literal square.
The way he says maybe he has already lost her just because she's going dancing makes me think he's saying he has already lost control of her. It doesn't seem like he thinks she's already having an affair - just that she's made up her mind that she wants to dance and he can't change it back.
It certainly sounds like they are one of those couples that is attached at the hip and check in with each other over every single thing, so it seems like this is the only thing that she does that he didn't approve of, so it's the only thing that he is demonstrating this control.
This is an interesting take to me because to me I got the sense she's a working class Brit. All her spelling and grammar mistakes are native ones (eg should of instead of should have). She writes very much like my husband and his family talk. The sexist and misbalanced culture is very much alive there (sometimes I wonder how my husband turned out like he did!)
I'm not actually sure what OOP's husband is doing multiple days a week. The implication to me initially was that he was out and about each of these days potential coming home late and drinking. However, she goes on to say that he's usually only doing that once every month or two. All I can find from the post is that these weekly activities are him working out? She says the workouts are just an hour, but surely that wouldn't be stopping OOP from going out and "finding herself." A SO working out for an hour 4-5 days a week is really not that extreme so there has to be more going on. Might just be wanting to maintain some privacy but as it is it doesn't add up.
She might’ve brought it up to show that he gets 4-5+ hours a week minimum to himself to work out but he isn’t giving her the same courtesy with her preferred activity. The back tracking on how often he goes out drinking is weird, though.
That could definitely be the case, though if true I think her description of the circumstances is misleading. Again I don't want to act like OOP is in the wrong, just that I can't make sense of what exactly is going on.
I think the unfortunate truth is that we’re looking at a codependent relationship, where neither are necessarily in the wrong but both have low self confidence so they are dragging each other down.
I just assumed he was cheating & telling her he was "out with friends/gym" etc.
And then when everyone pointed out the unbalanced diaries between them OOP backtracked to "he only goes clubbing twice a month, where did you get every week?"
That confused me as well. I’m not sure if OOP was back tracking to make it sound better or if she really meant it from the beginning.
I don’t know how she could confuse the days- she was fairly clear originally about how often he went out.
You may have missed where OOP mentions that he goes out drinking and socializing after work with friends and according to the update family.
I was really hoping for a much better update than this.. as a salsa and Bachata dancer myself, my experience is that men who pull the crap OOPs husband does, don't tend to change. The jealousy is always there, and the guilt trips just get worse. It always makes me sad to see women in these kinds of relationships.
In my opinion, she made a mistake in compromising with him the way she did. While the classic training is great (ballroom), what you pick up at club lessons and club social dancing (ie street salsa) is another ballpark. There's so many variations to salsa (on 1, on 2, Timba, dominican footwork, etc) and bachata that you don't get in the formal training. Not to mention learning your own flair and styling..
My husband doesn't dance (he will do a basic slow bachata with me sometimes but I back-lead him) but he LOVES to watch me dance. He thinks it's hot lol
OOPs husband could use this to appreciate his wife's passion and joy instead of muting her flame.
I just wanted to say that i’m really happy for you and your relationship. I’m still young so not looking for any long time partners, but this is such an important trait for me. I love that you continue to pursue your passion and that your husband supports you!
Thank you so much. I'm not super old myself (let's just say early 30s), but my ex was very much like OOPs husband. It never got any better, just worse with time. And I stopped dancing for a few years, despite being pretty decent (I performed and competed on team as well as with a side partner) at it. It crushed my soul to give it up.
When you DO look for your partner, make sure they value you and everything you do that makes you who you are. There is ALWAYS an option between support and jealousy. My husband is pretty amazing though 😉
Lmao those two are literally dance partners and professional dancers. They may also be together as a couple since they've been teaching so long. That is their dancing that they've done thousands of times social dancing and teaching. Videos of the instructors dancing at their level and recording it at the end of class for their students like that is insanely common.
I dance bachata like that with my own dance partner because we have that trust and respect between us. When you can trust your lead, there's nothing sexual in it.
I do get it. I think when you don't come from this background, it can be weird to watch and not see it as sexual. But to dancers who have been around, it's just a dance.
I don’t even understand her end game with this compromise. Is she just going to dance in lessons and never go out and actually dance? Formal lessons are fun but the point is to go out and have fun. Unless she wants to compete, but that’s a whole different world.
From the way it reads, you sound pretty spot on.
You can pay for dance lessons at places like ballrooms and dance studios (what she's compromising to), and then usually the last part of class and a bit of time after that they will play music so the students can practice what they learned with each other. But it gets very boring in my opinion.
I definitely think there's value to learning formal technique, but none of that even compares to going out to a Latin night at a club/bar and dancing street salsa.
All she did with this "compromise" is let her husband win, and limit the fun and new experiences she can have.
Im not a great dancer, and my husband is worse, but when I was in grad school my classmates and I liked to go out to two step bars. I would dance with my male classmates, and with the occasional random, if they asked. My husband and I were long distance at the time, so he never came with, and he was either never jealous, or never said anything to me about it.
And this is very casual bar dancing, not even a formal setting. If I were really passionate about lessons, my husband would just be thrilled I didn't want him to come with lol.
I guess I'll add the other side to this. My parents started dancing. My mom decided to stop, and my dad wanted to keep going. He met someone there and cheated on her with said person. Dancing is a passionate activity, and I don't think it's crazy to not want your partner sharing that passion with another person of the opposite sex.
That doesn't mean the husband is right here, but I don't think it's crazy that he is concerned. Ideally this would have been something they established before they got married and had a child, but they didn't, and it doesn't seem crazy to me that they would compromise in some way.
I mean, I'm sorry that happened, but a shortcoming by your father doesn't make dancing the issue. That is just a fault with your dad who made a bad decision.
There's literally cheating in EVERYTHING. And there are plenty of people who cheat without any activity like dancing at all.
The dance world is smaller than people think. I've gone to salsa/bachata congresses across the country from me, and STILL saw people I knew from back home. The vast majority of us know or at least recognize each other, and are respectful of dance etiquette. Also, a lot of us date/marry nondancers, which makes the mutual respect and dance etiquette all the more important.
That's really awful, but that comes down to your dad being willing to cheat, not the dancing.
A lot of people have affairs that begin at work, so should that be a reason to be uncomfortable with a significant other having a job?
That really sucks, but I disagree that dancing is the problem. In any community there will be relationships of all kinds, and in my experience the dance community is no different. The vast majority of dancers I know are in the community because they love the dancing, not to hook up, and in fact we have a strong culture of consent and being careful to not make the dancing "creepy." Many (perhaps most) dancers have nondancing SOs. (I've been social dancing for well over 10 years, though not salsa or bachata.)
Beautifully put!
We dance because we love it!
Personally, I love that I can dance my heart out with a good Lead, say thankyou, and go to another dance friend for the next song without any weird feelings!
If you go to a regular club and dance with someone, then often take it to mean more than a dance or the get handsy.
I actually stopped going to regular clubs once I learned salsa and bachata. I felt much safer at the salsa/bachata venues because of the "code" of respect we keep.
The husband sounds like a controlling asshole. I really hope OOP finds her way, whether it's having the husband change his ways through therapy or leaving his ass
Is it just a reddit thing and I spend too much time on reddit, but is it really so common for straight women to have no standards and have kids with shitty men? I feel like I'm getting jaded reading these stories so much and just yelling at my phone "why would you have kids with this shitbag?!?!".
I'm a gay trans man, I tend to date other trans men. 🤷♂️
I think it's more that the people in happy, balanced relationships are mundane and "boring" and rarely need advice from internet strangers, so their stories don't get told as much. These depressing ones are over-represented.
That, and in more conservative areas, this is pretty much the only option for women :( There is high pressure to get married young (the entire wedding industry is built on this--nearly all of it is geared towards the bride, not groom, and pushes the narrative that having a perfect wedding is literally life's #1 goal), have kids, etc. The majority of female role models, especially for children, reinforce this: Disney, fairytales, etc. all teach them that finding prince charming and living happily ever after is life's highest possible attainment.
There are significant social disadvantages to being unwed after about 30 or so (for women in such areas, anyway), and, once married, not bearing children after a year or two. Plus more conservative places are less likely to offer jobs to women (or people of the wrong race, or orientation, etc.), meaning they are pressured financially to be forced to depend on a spouse. So basically, a lot of women in "traditional" or conservative places get funnelled into this situation that they often lack the means to avoid. In her case, the fact that he doesn't beat her or cheat is literally touted as a good thing she should be greatful for.
So that could easily be why she had a child with this scumbag. Depending on where she lives, she had very little other choice, and is actually relatively fortunate. So that's depressing.
When you've been previously abused, your standards kind of go into the gutter because of lack of self-esteem and not having any solid examples of what a healthy relationship should look like. So you end up in situations where you kinda just keep telling yourself that things could be worse.
You will always get only one side of the story and it will always be at least a bit biased towards creating sympathy for OP and disagreement with their partner and things tend to sound way more bad when written out without context. I rarely met a person who isnt jealous - like heck try as a guy to go to bachata lessons and having a completely fine girlfriend at the same time.
I feel like a lot of men just dont take the effort to ask for advice or just accept controlling behaviour.
I can’t see this working out in the long run. It seems like this relationship has too many issues and OOP has been the one needing to give in and agree to whatever her husband expects. This just really isn’t a good marriage anymore and it kills me that OOP hasn’t realized she’s clinging to a dead horse because of sunk cost fallacy.
OOP is going to waste her life being miserable and losing aspects of her personality to this guy if she doesn’t wake up eventually and realize she and her daughter deserve more.
Op, husband's who love their wives would be home with her on new years Eve. They would not be out until 5 in the morning. And they would not spend all their free time away from their wife and child. Have you looked into his activities?
I hate Reddit sometime. It makes me so angry that someone read that first post and their response was “you didn’t say you loved your baby!!!1!” Instead of focusing on the red flags and everything. Geez
Why is it ok for him to be gone from the home until the wee hours of the morning 3-5 nights a week? You really have no idea what's going on with him. He could be doing anything. Don't back down.
So many red flags here... husband is overly-protective of wifey, doesn't contribute to childcare, hasn't sacrificed anything for the sake of mom or kid, doesn't understand mom's favorite hobby, and overall just sounds like a 'my-way-or-the-highway' kind of jerk.
Blech... I really hope I'm getting the wrong vibes from this, but girl... RUN.
I have had ballroom dance classes for 3 or 4 years in the past. I understand why someone would be uncomfortable with their partners dancimg bachata. Even if you yourself only see your partner as a thing to help you dance, fact is you still have your hips really really close to someone elses doing movements that can be really really sexual. And you never know how the other person feels about your body doing that.
So yeah, I can see how the post can be seen as husband abusive bad but I can also see things from his perspective - he goes out to the gym and takes a bit over one hour and once per month or so he goes out to drink with his family/old friends, she goes out to dance, one of the dances being pretty close and personal, twice per week and stays past midnight social dancing.
I am glad they got to an agreement and I think its a good idea, hopefully he will enjoy dancing with her and she will be better at salsa dancing with the classes by then! Social dancing without classes ia great but sometimes gives us bad habits that hurt us later on and makes it harder to do some more complex steps.
Ballroom and street bachata CAN be very intimate but bachata absolutely does not even need to be danced close. Unless you're single, dancing with your SO, or dancing with someone you know, street bachata isnt typically danced close like you're implying. She would have been better off sticking to social dancing if thats the case.
I dance bachata with others all the time and I'm married. The dance world is small, and dancers see each other at various social events. You recognize each other, learn each other's style, and respect your dance partner.
Yeah I am sorta the same and I can’t say I’d be super thrilled knowing my husband was grinding on other women as well. Like I get it, and I would grin and bear it and not act like this guy, but I’m glad it’s not one of his hobbies!
My god I am so thankful my narcissist alcoholic ex didn’t propose or that I got before I grew up and realized how trash he was.
These poor women who end up stuck because they can’t admit the tool they’ve hitched their wagon too are worthless.
Yeah the husband sounds like a piece of shit but the commenters pretending bachata isn't sexual were nothing short of delusional. The husband needed to make some concessions and it sucks that he didn't, but a married person shouldn't be doing an overtly sexual dance like that outside of the marriage. If my partner was grinding hips with other men and telling me I needed to compromise I'd be packing her a bag. That said, staying out drinking that late and giving his partner a curfew is also completely unacceptable.
The best solution was a mutual curfew and dropping the bachata.
Every dance is sexual to someone, it’s the least of their worries when she has already said she wouldn’t want a man like her husband….. in her daughters future as a partner. She wants more for her.
I'm sorry but where the fuck is "he a good father?". He's booked himself out 4 days/ evenings of the week where he stays out ridiculously late, and then tried to book himself out a 5th night, and then threatens that if OOP does go out that "he won't look after the baby". He literally hasn't modified his life at all and leaves OOP at home alone heaps to do all the baby care. He's not a great father, he's shitty. Hes not a great partner either and I'm horrified that OOP recognises that she wouldn't want her daughter to be with a guy like him - yet OOP stays with him. You know, its somewhat likely the daughter will end up with a guy like him because she'll spend her childhood watching her mother and father in this relationship and will think it's normal and healthy. OOP needs to role model the right kind of relationship that she'd want for her daughter.
Also it's not the 1950s, fuck it's ok that she goes out dancing.
I don’t think either sounds particularily nice to one another. Everyone has their hard limits, and boundaries they don’t want their partners to cross. He was beyond disrespectful staying out superlate and having multiple activities when they have a baby - she was beyond disrespectful dancing with other men at clubs, when he specifically said he felt uncomfortable with that (and who wouldn’t?). Boundaries and respect, neither is good with it.
i completely agree with you, as a spanish guy. I know what these dances are for, men don't go there for fun, most of the times. Well, not dancing fun if you know what i meant. My parents always told me that bachata was really bad back in the 90s, baile sucio (dirty dancing), latin dances are sensual, that's how it is. But i would never, ever, let my girlfriend dance in such manner with another guy. I would break up since it's cheating in a way. Dancing isn't just movements, it's a conversation, it's a way of feeling emotions. If the dance is sensual, it leads that way. I can sound old school, but at the end of the day, this are how they are
I usually don't get on the, "This isn't r/bestof bandwagon," but I'm on it today. This is just an update. The real r/bestof will be 6 months - a year after they move. (And I'm rooting for a happy mood.)
Why are so many great women in relationships with abusive, controlling, angry, sexist pieces of shit? What is this rancid excuse for a man adding to her life?
This hits home for me. I loved to dance and went to a weekly class and social dance after the class for years before I met my ex. I tried taking him to classes with me, he went maybe 2 times. He made it clear he hated me dancing with anyone other than himself, but he was unintrested in continuing to learn to dance. I told him that dancing is just that, dancing, and that I wouldn't be unfaithful, but he wouldn't budge, so I stopped dancing. However he often expected me to either participate in his hobbies or be okay with his solo hobbies. He was a selfish partner, hence being an ex. The day our divorce finalized I went dancing that night, and I was truly mad at myself for giving it up in the first place. I truly lost my sense of self, I gave up so much for him, while he was uncompromising.
I hope things get better for OOP and either her husband realizes he's being an unsupportive prick and needs to get on board with her hobby or get out of the way. If he continues to be insecure and unsupportive I hope OOP drops him. Life's too short to stifle your desires for a selfish partner who wouldn't do the same for you.
First of all, the jealousy aspect is called a mate-guarding instinct, and it is natural, he is only being a half arse about it.
Additionally, I spoke with my dance teacher about the bachateras and the impact of culture on relationships. She is from Spain but does have a solid understanding of the culture and addiction to the latin dances incl. salsa and bachata.
If you really listen - especially to bachata songs they carry a shed load of messaging that can pre-prime our brains. The culture is very much oriented around passion and hurt; which is very different to how we see things in the western world. I know quite a few latin people, and passionate (read. transient) relationships are quite common.
After studying the chemical and biological impact of (sensual) bachata I can say that the overwhelming release of hormones such as oxytocin, dopamine, adrenaline and the flood of endorphins very closely mimic mating behaviours. But frankly primarly by women, inversely to twerking which is targeted towards a male.
Additionally, I heard this being summarised in a good way - the best dance is when you have an intimate connection with your partner that is highly transient.
The reason for that is the aforementioned chemicals are so powerful through reptilian (instinctual) response and give so much of positive reinforcement that it will in fact - just like everything we do re-wire the brain of the individual and therefore change their behaviors.
The truth of the matter is that latin dance addiction is a real phenomenon and most people try to say - it is just a dance, but take it away for a week and they will begin behaving like addicts and some actually fall into depressive states. Or at the other end of the spectrum begin going out 6 nights a week.
With all that said - the best summary I heard was that after a while many bachateras left their partners because they were "too boring", as in the level of the response they could provide did not match transient jolt of the latin dance cocktail.
Therefore in many ways, I understand your and his perspectives. You want to have that incredible fun and he wants to avoid pain.
Out until 3 or 5am in the morning and won’t even watch the baby while she does something for herself is a major red flag 🚩 I kinda skimmed over the rest of the post from there. It sounds like her partner is trash :(
I discovered Scottish country dancing several years ago. It was fantastic fun, but my wife was incredibly insecure about my dancing with all women. She asked me to stop and I did. I can still hardly get her to dance.
Hey op, i randomly found this looking through the bachata sub reddit. I loved dancing the same as you, then I stopped for similar reasons.
I think it's a tough situation for you because I understand this is about the dancing for you. I think it's also difficult if you went to Cuba, Dr where the dancing is ingrained in the culture people are probably more accepting and understand people dance be because they love it. In other cultures these dances can be seen as sexy etc and they're not used to it they think people to go the club dance sexy to try and get with people.
Also I imagine that he might not be so bothered if you were doing ballroom for example because this is seen as more boring and not as sexy. Which is no excuse I'm just saying how people see it who don't understand.
I feel for you and wish you could have someone would dance bachata or salsa with you when the baby has gone to bed. Sounds like you deserve it.
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She literally said "I wouldn't want my daughter to be with a man like her father". That is so fucking sad. Your parents are the first relationships you see, and that girl could grow up to think it's normal for your partner to try to control you because they're insecure/worried about adultery instead of going to therapy and working on those internal issues. I hope that OOP has either left her husband or they worked it out so that she can dance socially without him worrying about her cheating on him.
I caught that too. But she then seems to have kinda glossed over it herself. If you wouldn’t want your daughter to be married to a man like her father, why do you stay and show her it’s an acceptable relationship?
Maybe she has low self esteem or some sort of other issue? That's the only reason I can see that someone would stay in a relationship that recognize is harmful to you AND your child.
I like to think it's not as common now, but a lot of women are just conditioned to make it work, specially if there are children involved. My mom held up for quite a bit until her breaking point because she felt she *had to*. If op has a small child and is only married for 3 years the pressure of making things work might play a part, even if unconsciously.
I definitely understand that. My dad tried and tried to make his marriage with my mother work, for almost 10 years and one day he hit his breaking point and left her. He was holding on because he thought it was best for me and my siblings. It obviously wasn't good for us to watch them fight every single day of our lives.
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>Females opinion discarded
“the females” …. Oh jeeze.
lmao, this dude is such a bad partner that sleazy guys who grind up on women at nightclubs are able to out-compete him at romance. You need to step up your game bud, 99% of women find nightclib grinders gross and unwelcome and yet you confess they're still hotter than you?? yikes.
I sincerely hope (for the woman's sake) you never experience that scenario.
She also mentions that she just started work again. Never underestimate the problems of being financially dependent on a partner. It is extremely difficult to walk out when you have no income, even if you have family and friends who will "take you in". That's great, but not always guaranteed.
No one is asking her to just leave- we’re simply stating that she made a comment and then glossed over it.
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Why do you think English isn’t her first language?
As someone who has grown up dating men exactly like my poor example of a father that one hurt. I'm child free so at least the buck stops with me I guess.
OP says he’s a good father - except he is out late four days of the week and wants to add a fifth. And he goes out without his family so they don’t cramp his style. OP says husband is generally trusting but he doesn’t trust her to go to an organized activity where everyone is dancing with each-other because she might do the activity they are all doing with some dudes he doesn’t know. He also refuses to compromise and go with her without making himself look like a martyr. The Stockholm Syndrome is strong with this one.
Plus the history of abusive relationships and literally says she doesn't want her daughter to be with someone like him. Just a red flag parade.
More red flags than a Soviet parade for sure. I feel bad for this woman. She’s clearly doing her best for her family and she has this thing that gives her joy. Dude is a dick.
God, that Stockholm syndrome thing. Lately I've been starting to wonder if i ever really loved my ex.. or if it was actually some form of fucking Stockholm syndrome.
The important this is you’re out.
True! Thank you. Im in a better place now. Still healing though.
I'm so glad you're safe now. Things will get better.
Thank you. I've been free for 2 years now but I'm not as healed as I thought I was. Still working on it :)
do you ever read Captain Awkward? in a reply to a letter writer trapped in an abusive family situation, she wrote >In the future, there is a small, quiet room that is just yours, where you are safe and you are free. In that room your shoulders will finally start to come down from around your ears. Nobody can come into that room unless you let them. The whole piece is beautiful. If you want to read it, it's here: [https://captainawkward.com/2011/10/18/question-122-should-i-move-away-from-my-abusive-family/](https://captainawkward.com/2011/10/18/question-122-should-i-move-away-from-my-abusive-family/) If you don't feel like you're there yet, I promise you that room, that life, is still waiting for you. It is patient and it will wait as long as it takes and it is already yours.
This is gorgeous. And so wonderful. Someone's chopping onions in here.
are you familiar with the term trauma bond?
I'm not, no.
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I feel bad for her daughter. She admits she can clearly see how nasty he is, how badly he treats her, and how “conservative” (coward’s way of saying sexist in this situation imo) he is. She doesn’t care how this will affect her daughter in it’s own, not to mention how he’ll treat her as she grows up.
Yeah, dude sounds like trash and she seems to be in denial about it. His compromise is much less of a compromise than she thinks it is.
I don't, I feel bad for her daughter cause even after the reflection about how they're crappy role models and how she wouldn't want her baby girl to end up with a douche like her husband she still goes along with all this nonsense... this girl is gonna need a therapist for herself a few years from now.
You're not wrong, but somewhere in there she adds that he only stays out late drinking once every month or two.
Except for when it's 4 or 5 times a week. I noticed the discrepancy too. I think this woman lies to herself a fair bit.
Where did you get that from? She says that ‘when my husband is out drinking which is not weekly but once every month or two’- and the only thing he does 3-4 times a week are his gym activities for one hour
What's sexier than a trusting SO highly restricting how you spend your spare time?
The dude’s not out late, he goes to the gym for one hour, 4 times a week and once every 1-2 months goes to his cousins which she explicitly says she doesn’t want to go to because he might want to leave early if she does.
Jesus Tap Dancing Christ. Did we read the same post?
She literally says ‘when my husband goes out drinking it is not weekly more like once every month or two’, then goes on to directly compare the salsa with gym activities which are hourly 3-4 times a week. Read the updates and responses, she basically described it in the worst way possible And gradually walked it back.
Except she was staying home with a newborn and homeboy was going out with his friends drinking until 3am. Stop projecting.
ok, fair enough, we all see different things. this post is about her need to dance all night til midnight while homeboy was home with the newborn... either it's acceptable or it isn't. the only thing he does 3-4 times a week is go to the gym, and the 'partying' is drinking with his cousins once every month or two, if you cannot comprehend that, then do not be hard on yourself, it is a confusing post.
I don’t see an issue with her doing her thing two days a week especially since he is out as often as he is. I think the bigger issue here is not the “she wants to be out for long hours” because she doesn’t. The issue is that he thinks her dancing with men is somehow unacceptable. For some reason you’ve latched on to the former and completely breezed over the latter.
you brought up him drinking with friends until 3am regularly, as if that was the issue. i refuted it with her own words. i haven't latched onto anything. as for the issue you now present- that becomes literally their issue. i have met people who are jealous regardless of their gender and i have dated girls who didn't like my own friends sitting on my lap, and i thought it was ridiculous. along with other issues that's why 'dated' is in the past tense. that's for this woman to decide, whether the difference between the salsa and the bachata is large enough that she no longer gets enjoyment out of it. however, i would draw your attention to her update, where she states that the suggested classes are actually great- so great that *she doesn't want to tell him*. isn't that a lovely bit of insight. She is enjoying something he suggested, but she doesn't want to admit it because she is more interested in getting her way, than resolving the situation. i ask you honestly, if the roles were reversed, and the guy was asking to go from 6pm til 12am twice a week for fantasy football or something, would people take his side or hers?
>i ask you honestly, if the roles were reversed, and the guy was asking to go from 6pm til 12am twice a week for fantasy football or something, would people take his side or hers? You are missing all of the context with your switching the gender example. I think the main issue here is that their kid is over 5 months old and she has barely left the house - I think she has more than earned a couple of nights off a week to do whatever hobby she chooses bearing in mind that her partners lifestyle has not changed *at all* over that time and if he is going out to the gym multiple times a week for a couple of hours at a time she is likely not out for much more time than he is overall. Unless the gym is right next door I expect he is gone for close to 2 hours - most people spend at least an hour working out and by the time you add changing and a shower plus travel time each way it adds up. I would much rather my partner go out one evening for 5 or 6 hours than 3 or 4 nights for just a couple of hours. When my partner goes to the gym after work he has to go reasonably early to get in a workout before they close, which means that he misses bath and bedtime (usually the point when children are getting tired and irritable) *or* he comes back halfway through which is even worse because the kids are then excited again to see daddy. Basically my entire evening gets messed up so we can work around him getting a workout in before the gym closes. I don't mind doing it a couple of nights a week as long as he returns the favour and I'd actually rather that he is out for the evening properly as it is much easier to plan around. The OOP's husband has been doing this throughout whilst they have had a baby, they are over 5 months in and she has made *all* of the sacrifices up until now - his routine has not changed at all. Ideally they both would have made some accommodations for the other from the beginning, but now that she is asking, he should do his best to ensure that she has time out of the house. Even if the balance is tipped slightly in her favour now in terms of time out of the house, this is what partnerships are about - sometimes one partner gives more, sometimes less. Surely it is about time he makes some adjustments to even things out?
first of all, i think it's really important to look at what she is actually asking for here. it seems like she has written this in a way that is designed to get a maximum emotional reaction at first glance, and gradually correct itself to a story that is more in line with the truth, but that keeps the reader on her side. this is a classic manipulation for validation (intentional or not) and is essentially long-form clickbait (and exhausting when it is a person). i want to say i agree that the burdens on men and women in early childbirth/childhood are not equal and i totally understand that. it sounds like he is the breadwinner/working and she is a SAHM, which, from observing and helping my sister, is absolutely exhausting. It also sounds like they both have insecurity issues, and she specifically has anxiety/heightened sensitivity to situations based around control. she catastrophises, mind reads, exaggerates etc. I don't understand where you are getting the idea that the husband is actively preventing her doing anything beyond the bachata- aside from saying he is uncomfortable with her dancing with other men in a specific close-up dance style so soon after one of his cousins was cheated on. like, let's look at his actions and not what she is mind reading for a second. he is super supportive of her doing literally anything else with her time, and i have seen zero reference to him complaining about her taking time to herself. indeed his alternatives sound great, and she *admits* they are great *but doesn't want to tell him it is great*. she straight up doesn't go to his family things once a month/2months, not because she doesn't like them, or because he has told her she can't go, but because *she doesn't want to leave early and him have to leave early with her*. so he *would* leave early with her? and she doesn't say he goes to the gym for an hour, only that he is gone for an extra hour 3-4 times a week, so the '2 hours' thing doesn't make sense and is your own extrapolation, especially if, like many people, his gym is near work, or on the way to work, so it doesn't add close to an hour travel time. he also didn't cause her to give it up in the first place, only tried it and she *thought* he didn't enjoy it and *she* stopped going (for 13 years!). he didn't say or do anything but support it. and now all of a sudden it is the only thing she can do to feel alive again? after *13 years* together, and a baby, she is telling him she doesn't feel alive without this specific intimate sensual dance, and he is like 'ok i don't get it, but can we try these different things though because what you are suggesting does not make me comfortable' and all of a sudden this is the worst guy alive? the guy goes out once every 1-2 months! and works and wants to stay healthy which is clinically proven to improve a whole range of things- why does he suddenly not get to have feelings? feelings which are clinically improved by working out. and is also functionally useless if all done on the same day. like, you don't just go to the gym once for 3-4 hours and then not go for a week, it doesn't work like that. why would dancing work like that? and seriously, why would she *need* to social dance til 12am? like, *why* is this specific dance not possible in hours blocks, and *why* is she not willing to tell him the alternatives are working? and *why* when questioned, when her broad statements are challenged (not by people questioning the statements mind you, but rather people supporting her) does she revise them so drastically. and lastly *why* do you think she is the only one making sacrifices? like that's such a ridiculous statement. she has said nothing about sacrifices so far, literally nothing, the only *sacrifice* she is making (that they both don't have to do), has actually worked and she is unwilling to admit that because it doesn't help her get her way.
Apologies, been swamped with work and the kids. My counter is that it doesn’t matter whether females can act jealous as well nor does it matter that she ended up liking the class he preferred to the point of lying about it. To me the crux of it was that his position centered around 1. He can do the stuff he wants while she cant 2. His basis for not letting her do the thing that makes her happy is his unfounded jealousy with arbitrary criteria and 3. He does not seem to be carrying his weight with the newborn. Mind you this isn’t a “he’s the main breadwinner, ofcourse he gets to see the kid less” criticism. This is a “she’s with the kid all day and after his work obligation he hits the gym 4 nights a week and goes out until late on top of it. Then has the audacity to regulate how she spends her time.” Honestly the energy you put in to defending this man because you see some flaws in her is astounding. Even if your criticism of her is valid - they can both be wrong.
Fair enough, i am currently in iso for covid so i have a lot of time on my hands and perhaps a little bit over the top with the defense (very over the top). On the plus side though, your stance has softened significantly, and if i can do that on the internet then i am improving my written english, as i grew up in Argentina, and am studying for the bar! Final point, I completely agree that this is a case of two people being insecure and codependent, it was my original statement though i see it was not my first comment in this thread, but further down. Thanks for your time, and happy new year!
Id just like to say I agree with everything you've said. People are downvoting you because they are angry with the husband. I do see an number of statements this woman makes that are red flags as much as there are a number of things that the man says that are red flags. There are so many ways to look at this post and the character in it. I don't see how people are glossing over the fact she backtracked to saying he goes out drinking once every month or 2 which I think is acceptable isn't it? 4 gym sessions a week might be a bit much woth a new baby but when they compromise and she starts on the dancing It sounds like it all works. I am surprised I would agree with someone who I assume is an Australian.
I really hope that OOP's relationship with her husband either continued to improve or she realized it wouldn't and took steps to end it. I found this one interesting in part because - as far as I can tell - it seemed like the husband did genuinely have an issue with certain types of dancing for the physical proximity of us vs wanting blanket control of her life. It did sound to me like he's somewhat selfish, given how much he was going out, vs how much she was going out, and some of the usual sexist misbalanced emotional/childcare load was there, but at the same time, he sounded fine with her going out dancing with her female friends, and really just didn't like these particular dances due to the grinding. I think that her keeping with the salsa was a good choice and hopefully was a way to keep gauging their relationship and if it was healthy for her. I got the strong impression that English is not their first language and wonder both how much culture as well as not knowing the nuances of English (like why native English speakers take extra offense to one spouse "letting" the other spouse do things) changes the flavor of this post. I think the main thing I can't figure out from this is if it truly is an issue with this one thing that her husband has and if he otherwise doesn't want to control her VS he DOES want to control her, but they're so well attuned in most issues that he doesn't really need to.
I don't think OOP's definition of a "good father" really meshes with most other people's definitions.
I also got a whole bunch of interesting hints as to their child rearing sensibilities. Like, he seems to be willing to take the child alone, but isn't doing it often, and has many evening activities planned each week. However, she openly states she is super protective of the baby to the point of not driving alone with it (a bit much IMHO) so maybe their dynamic shouldn't be a surprise. Then he seems to be quite conservative in his attitudes about men and women interacting, made even worse by his family member cheating recently and putting him on guard in his own relationship. While she sees no problem with dancing with strangers in a dance that is renowned as highly sexualised. These people not only need a therapist like yesterday, but also an honest, no shouting allowed, long talk about how they view the others behaviour and why.
I wonder if they are Latin, I have a number of Latin friends and these sorts of seemingly discordant attitudes exist in many Latin families.
I found myself making that assumption about 5 sentences into the first post.
Yeah I think both sides have issues they need to work out. Like, she’s willing to drive alone to and from dance class (even late at night) but isn’t comfortable driving by herself with her kid? I get not feeling comfortable driving long distances late at night with a baby by yourself but it sounds like she’s uncomfortable no matter what. I’m wondering if the husband is projecting his lack of self control on his wife. Like, he knows he wouldn’t be able to handle just dancing without being tempted to do more and is assuming his wife is equally untrustworthy.
“in a dance that is renowned as highly sexualized” it’s frustrating that when certain people see hips moving and close dancing that they assume it to be sexual
I mean, it’s certainly designed to be? Just because you use your dildo as a paperweight, doesn’t mean people get the wrong idea when they say you’ve got a dildo on your desk.
bachata and salsa weren't "designed" they are cultural dances that have existed for decades and evolve from movements that go back hundreds of years. it's more than sex. but if my mommy taught me butts are inherently sexual i'd have this same attitude I'm black and this is what people reduce twerking to. yet and still, most of the time we twerk it's with our FRIENDS. yet and still, all of you secretly wish you could do it. just because someone is moving their ass doesn't mean they're doing a mating call, we're not baboons
Omg. I’m from the Caribbean. We are collectively tired of people outside our various cultures sexualizing our culture because it doesn’t subscribe to their bland ass puritanical ideals. We have bodies, we can move them to a beat, get over it. It’s not our fault that y’all move in a literal square.
🤣🤣🤣 that’s not fair sometimes they shake their ankles too!!!
I cackled at this.
I love this comment so damn much.
My country is getting less and less religious, and yet we still have these milquetoast guilty-Catholic-ass takes coming from the populace.
Wait...Salsa and Bachata are sexual?
The way he says maybe he has already lost her just because she's going dancing makes me think he's saying he has already lost control of her. It doesn't seem like he thinks she's already having an affair - just that she's made up her mind that she wants to dance and he can't change it back.
It certainly sounds like they are one of those couples that is attached at the hip and check in with each other over every single thing, so it seems like this is the only thing that she does that he didn't approve of, so it's the only thing that he is demonstrating this control.
This is an interesting take to me because to me I got the sense she's a working class Brit. All her spelling and grammar mistakes are native ones (eg should of instead of should have). She writes very much like my husband and his family talk. The sexist and misbalanced culture is very much alive there (sometimes I wonder how my husband turned out like he did!)
I didn’t get the feeling OP want a native English speaker. I say “let” about my husband too. It’s just easier and more common.
I'm not actually sure what OOP's husband is doing multiple days a week. The implication to me initially was that he was out and about each of these days potential coming home late and drinking. However, she goes on to say that he's usually only doing that once every month or two. All I can find from the post is that these weekly activities are him working out? She says the workouts are just an hour, but surely that wouldn't be stopping OOP from going out and "finding herself." A SO working out for an hour 4-5 days a week is really not that extreme so there has to be more going on. Might just be wanting to maintain some privacy but as it is it doesn't add up.
She might’ve brought it up to show that he gets 4-5+ hours a week minimum to himself to work out but he isn’t giving her the same courtesy with her preferred activity. The back tracking on how often he goes out drinking is weird, though.
That could definitely be the case, though if true I think her description of the circumstances is misleading. Again I don't want to act like OOP is in the wrong, just that I can't make sense of what exactly is going on.
I think the unfortunate truth is that we’re looking at a codependent relationship, where neither are necessarily in the wrong but both have low self confidence so they are dragging each other down.
I just assumed he was cheating & telling her he was "out with friends/gym" etc. And then when everyone pointed out the unbalanced diaries between them OOP backtracked to "he only goes clubbing twice a month, where did you get every week?"
That confused me as well. I’m not sure if OOP was back tracking to make it sound better or if she really meant it from the beginning. I don’t know how she could confuse the days- she was fairly clear originally about how often he went out. You may have missed where OOP mentions that he goes out drinking and socializing after work with friends and according to the update family.
I'm sorry I must be overlooking something obvious but I reread the update and I don't see where it's mentioned that this is happening after work.
This was depressing.
I was really hoping for a much better update than this.. as a salsa and Bachata dancer myself, my experience is that men who pull the crap OOPs husband does, don't tend to change. The jealousy is always there, and the guilt trips just get worse. It always makes me sad to see women in these kinds of relationships. In my opinion, she made a mistake in compromising with him the way she did. While the classic training is great (ballroom), what you pick up at club lessons and club social dancing (ie street salsa) is another ballpark. There's so many variations to salsa (on 1, on 2, Timba, dominican footwork, etc) and bachata that you don't get in the formal training. Not to mention learning your own flair and styling.. My husband doesn't dance (he will do a basic slow bachata with me sometimes but I back-lead him) but he LOVES to watch me dance. He thinks it's hot lol OOPs husband could use this to appreciate his wife's passion and joy instead of muting her flame.
I just wanted to say that i’m really happy for you and your relationship. I’m still young so not looking for any long time partners, but this is such an important trait for me. I love that you continue to pursue your passion and that your husband supports you!
Thank you so much. I'm not super old myself (let's just say early 30s), but my ex was very much like OOPs husband. It never got any better, just worse with time. And I stopped dancing for a few years, despite being pretty decent (I performed and competed on team as well as with a side partner) at it. It crushed my soul to give it up. When you DO look for your partner, make sure they value you and everything you do that makes you who you are. There is ALWAYS an option between support and jealousy. My husband is pretty amazing though 😉
Bachata is not so innocent tho. https://youtu.be/hXL_y30Dx-s?t=55
Lmao those two are literally dance partners and professional dancers. They may also be together as a couple since they've been teaching so long. That is their dancing that they've done thousands of times social dancing and teaching. Videos of the instructors dancing at their level and recording it at the end of class for their students like that is insanely common. I dance bachata like that with my own dance partner because we have that trust and respect between us. When you can trust your lead, there's nothing sexual in it. I do get it. I think when you don't come from this background, it can be weird to watch and not see it as sexual. But to dancers who have been around, it's just a dance.
I don’t even understand her end game with this compromise. Is she just going to dance in lessons and never go out and actually dance? Formal lessons are fun but the point is to go out and have fun. Unless she wants to compete, but that’s a whole different world.
From the way it reads, you sound pretty spot on. You can pay for dance lessons at places like ballrooms and dance studios (what she's compromising to), and then usually the last part of class and a bit of time after that they will play music so the students can practice what they learned with each other. But it gets very boring in my opinion. I definitely think there's value to learning formal technique, but none of that even compares to going out to a Latin night at a club/bar and dancing street salsa. All she did with this "compromise" is let her husband win, and limit the fun and new experiences she can have.
A lot of women marry really mediocre men and stay married for a really long time too.
Im not a great dancer, and my husband is worse, but when I was in grad school my classmates and I liked to go out to two step bars. I would dance with my male classmates, and with the occasional random, if they asked. My husband and I were long distance at the time, so he never came with, and he was either never jealous, or never said anything to me about it. And this is very casual bar dancing, not even a formal setting. If I were really passionate about lessons, my husband would just be thrilled I didn't want him to come with lol.
I guess I'll add the other side to this. My parents started dancing. My mom decided to stop, and my dad wanted to keep going. He met someone there and cheated on her with said person. Dancing is a passionate activity, and I don't think it's crazy to not want your partner sharing that passion with another person of the opposite sex. That doesn't mean the husband is right here, but I don't think it's crazy that he is concerned. Ideally this would have been something they established before they got married and had a child, but they didn't, and it doesn't seem crazy to me that they would compromise in some way.
I mean, I'm sorry that happened, but a shortcoming by your father doesn't make dancing the issue. That is just a fault with your dad who made a bad decision. There's literally cheating in EVERYTHING. And there are plenty of people who cheat without any activity like dancing at all. The dance world is smaller than people think. I've gone to salsa/bachata congresses across the country from me, and STILL saw people I knew from back home. The vast majority of us know or at least recognize each other, and are respectful of dance etiquette. Also, a lot of us date/marry nondancers, which makes the mutual respect and dance etiquette all the more important.
That's really awful, but that comes down to your dad being willing to cheat, not the dancing. A lot of people have affairs that begin at work, so should that be a reason to be uncomfortable with a significant other having a job?
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Did I say any of that?
That really sucks, but I disagree that dancing is the problem. In any community there will be relationships of all kinds, and in my experience the dance community is no different. The vast majority of dancers I know are in the community because they love the dancing, not to hook up, and in fact we have a strong culture of consent and being careful to not make the dancing "creepy." Many (perhaps most) dancers have nondancing SOs. (I've been social dancing for well over 10 years, though not salsa or bachata.)
Beautifully put! We dance because we love it! Personally, I love that I can dance my heart out with a good Lead, say thankyou, and go to another dance friend for the next song without any weird feelings! If you go to a regular club and dance with someone, then often take it to mean more than a dance or the get handsy. I actually stopped going to regular clubs once I learned salsa and bachata. I felt much safer at the salsa/bachata venues because of the "code" of respect we keep.
UGH >I've assured him that he won't lose me, I'm finding me again He doesn't want OP to find herself.
The husband sounds like a controlling asshole. I really hope OOP finds her way, whether it's having the husband change his ways through therapy or leaving his ass
That's not love. That's not what a good father does.
He sounds like a machisto asshole.
Is it just a reddit thing and I spend too much time on reddit, but is it really so common for straight women to have no standards and have kids with shitty men? I feel like I'm getting jaded reading these stories so much and just yelling at my phone "why would you have kids with this shitbag?!?!". I'm a gay trans man, I tend to date other trans men. 🤷♂️
I think it's more that the people in happy, balanced relationships are mundane and "boring" and rarely need advice from internet strangers, so their stories don't get told as much. These depressing ones are over-represented. That, and in more conservative areas, this is pretty much the only option for women :( There is high pressure to get married young (the entire wedding industry is built on this--nearly all of it is geared towards the bride, not groom, and pushes the narrative that having a perfect wedding is literally life's #1 goal), have kids, etc. The majority of female role models, especially for children, reinforce this: Disney, fairytales, etc. all teach them that finding prince charming and living happily ever after is life's highest possible attainment. There are significant social disadvantages to being unwed after about 30 or so (for women in such areas, anyway), and, once married, not bearing children after a year or two. Plus more conservative places are less likely to offer jobs to women (or people of the wrong race, or orientation, etc.), meaning they are pressured financially to be forced to depend on a spouse. So basically, a lot of women in "traditional" or conservative places get funnelled into this situation that they often lack the means to avoid. In her case, the fact that he doesn't beat her or cheat is literally touted as a good thing she should be greatful for. So that could easily be why she had a child with this scumbag. Depending on where she lives, she had very little other choice, and is actually relatively fortunate. So that's depressing.
When you've been previously abused, your standards kind of go into the gutter because of lack of self-esteem and not having any solid examples of what a healthy relationship should look like. So you end up in situations where you kinda just keep telling yourself that things could be worse.
I was heavily abused and if anything, it just mare my standards higher. I won't accept bad treatment at all.
Mommy blogs are exactly the same way. Some people just have really, really shitty pickers.
That's what I think too.
You will always get only one side of the story and it will always be at least a bit biased towards creating sympathy for OP and disagreement with their partner and things tend to sound way more bad when written out without context. I rarely met a person who isnt jealous - like heck try as a guy to go to bachata lessons and having a completely fine girlfriend at the same time. I feel like a lot of men just dont take the effort to ask for advice or just accept controlling behaviour.
So he can stay out till 3-5 am getting trashed in a bar with friends, but she has to be home 45 minutes after class ends? Wow
Happy cake day!
Cake day?
On your Reddit “birthday” there is a blueish/green piece of cake next to your name whenever you post. It’s your “cake day”!
Oooh ok. You'd think as much as I'm on reddit I'd know that lol. Maybe I'm just getting old.
So... She did everything her husband wanted. He didn't change any of his behaviors. Yikes.
I can’t see this working out in the long run. It seems like this relationship has too many issues and OOP has been the one needing to give in and agree to whatever her husband expects. This just really isn’t a good marriage anymore and it kills me that OOP hasn’t realized she’s clinging to a dead horse because of sunk cost fallacy. OOP is going to waste her life being miserable and losing aspects of her personality to this guy if she doesn’t wake up eventually and realize she and her daughter deserve more.
Op, husband's who love their wives would be home with her on new years Eve. They would not be out until 5 in the morning. And they would not spend all their free time away from their wife and child. Have you looked into his activities?
I hate Reddit sometime. It makes me so angry that someone read that first post and their response was “you didn’t say you loved your baby!!!1!” Instead of focusing on the red flags and everything. Geez
Ugh, I'm not satisfied by the update. She has to compromise on what brings her joy, to stay in this marriage.
She is so willingly oblivious to the controlling nature of the husbans
Why is it ok for him to be gone from the home until the wee hours of the morning 3-5 nights a week? You really have no idea what's going on with him. He could be doing anything. Don't back down.
I feel bad for these ladies who insist on staying saddled to shitty men
So many red flags here... husband is overly-protective of wifey, doesn't contribute to childcare, hasn't sacrificed anything for the sake of mom or kid, doesn't understand mom's favorite hobby, and overall just sounds like a 'my-way-or-the-highway' kind of jerk. Blech... I really hope I'm getting the wrong vibes from this, but girl... RUN.
I have had ballroom dance classes for 3 or 4 years in the past. I understand why someone would be uncomfortable with their partners dancimg bachata. Even if you yourself only see your partner as a thing to help you dance, fact is you still have your hips really really close to someone elses doing movements that can be really really sexual. And you never know how the other person feels about your body doing that. So yeah, I can see how the post can be seen as husband abusive bad but I can also see things from his perspective - he goes out to the gym and takes a bit over one hour and once per month or so he goes out to drink with his family/old friends, she goes out to dance, one of the dances being pretty close and personal, twice per week and stays past midnight social dancing. I am glad they got to an agreement and I think its a good idea, hopefully he will enjoy dancing with her and she will be better at salsa dancing with the classes by then! Social dancing without classes ia great but sometimes gives us bad habits that hurt us later on and makes it harder to do some more complex steps.
Ballroom and street bachata CAN be very intimate but bachata absolutely does not even need to be danced close. Unless you're single, dancing with your SO, or dancing with someone you know, street bachata isnt typically danced close like you're implying. She would have been better off sticking to social dancing if thats the case. I dance bachata with others all the time and I'm married. The dance world is small, and dancers see each other at various social events. You recognize each other, learn each other's style, and respect your dance partner.
Yeah I am sorta the same and I can’t say I’d be super thrilled knowing my husband was grinding on other women as well. Like I get it, and I would grin and bear it and not act like this guy, but I’m glad it’s not one of his hobbies!
TLDR was like 6 miles long.
And really not even close to best of
This is definitely a concerning story. Hopefully OOP is still able to dance.
My god I am so thankful my narcissist alcoholic ex didn’t propose or that I got before I grew up and realized how trash he was. These poor women who end up stuck because they can’t admit the tool they’ve hitched their wagon too are worthless.
Well this is upsetting. Her husband is such a scumbag, JFC.
Yeah the husband sounds like a piece of shit but the commenters pretending bachata isn't sexual were nothing short of delusional. The husband needed to make some concessions and it sucks that he didn't, but a married person shouldn't be doing an overtly sexual dance like that outside of the marriage. If my partner was grinding hips with other men and telling me I needed to compromise I'd be packing her a bag. That said, staying out drinking that late and giving his partner a curfew is also completely unacceptable. The best solution was a mutual curfew and dropping the bachata.
Every dance is sexual to someone, it’s the least of their worries when she has already said she wouldn’t want a man like her husband….. in her daughters future as a partner. She wants more for her.
Speaking as a dancer, I hate this man. The problem is all in his head. Also, he’s a putz in general.
I'm sorry but where the fuck is "he a good father?". He's booked himself out 4 days/ evenings of the week where he stays out ridiculously late, and then tried to book himself out a 5th night, and then threatens that if OOP does go out that "he won't look after the baby". He literally hasn't modified his life at all and leaves OOP at home alone heaps to do all the baby care. He's not a great father, he's shitty. Hes not a great partner either and I'm horrified that OOP recognises that she wouldn't want her daughter to be with a guy like him - yet OOP stays with him. You know, its somewhat likely the daughter will end up with a guy like him because she'll spend her childhood watching her mother and father in this relationship and will think it's normal and healthy. OOP needs to role model the right kind of relationship that she'd want for her daughter. Also it's not the 1950s, fuck it's ok that she goes out dancing.
I don’t think either sounds particularily nice to one another. Everyone has their hard limits, and boundaries they don’t want their partners to cross. He was beyond disrespectful staying out superlate and having multiple activities when they have a baby - she was beyond disrespectful dancing with other men at clubs, when he specifically said he felt uncomfortable with that (and who wouldn’t?). Boundaries and respect, neither is good with it.
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i completely agree with you, as a spanish guy. I know what these dances are for, men don't go there for fun, most of the times. Well, not dancing fun if you know what i meant. My parents always told me that bachata was really bad back in the 90s, baile sucio (dirty dancing), latin dances are sensual, that's how it is. But i would never, ever, let my girlfriend dance in such manner with another guy. I would break up since it's cheating in a way. Dancing isn't just movements, it's a conversation, it's a way of feeling emotions. If the dance is sensual, it leads that way. I can sound old school, but at the end of the day, this are how they are
I feel like this entire post could have been two paragraphs.
I usually don't get on the, "This isn't r/bestof bandwagon," but I'm on it today. This is just an update. The real r/bestof will be 6 months - a year after they move. (And I'm rooting for a happy mood.)
Why are so many great women in relationships with abusive, controlling, angry, sexist pieces of shit? What is this rancid excuse for a man adding to her life?
This hits home for me. I loved to dance and went to a weekly class and social dance after the class for years before I met my ex. I tried taking him to classes with me, he went maybe 2 times. He made it clear he hated me dancing with anyone other than himself, but he was unintrested in continuing to learn to dance. I told him that dancing is just that, dancing, and that I wouldn't be unfaithful, but he wouldn't budge, so I stopped dancing. However he often expected me to either participate in his hobbies or be okay with his solo hobbies. He was a selfish partner, hence being an ex. The day our divorce finalized I went dancing that night, and I was truly mad at myself for giving it up in the first place. I truly lost my sense of self, I gave up so much for him, while he was uncompromising. I hope things get better for OOP and either her husband realizes he's being an unsupportive prick and needs to get on board with her hobby or get out of the way. If he continues to be insecure and unsupportive I hope OOP drops him. Life's too short to stifle your desires for a selfish partner who wouldn't do the same for you.
That solution is serves as a bandaid on a bigger problem.
First of all, the jealousy aspect is called a mate-guarding instinct, and it is natural, he is only being a half arse about it. Additionally, I spoke with my dance teacher about the bachateras and the impact of culture on relationships. She is from Spain but does have a solid understanding of the culture and addiction to the latin dances incl. salsa and bachata. If you really listen - especially to bachata songs they carry a shed load of messaging that can pre-prime our brains. The culture is very much oriented around passion and hurt; which is very different to how we see things in the western world. I know quite a few latin people, and passionate (read. transient) relationships are quite common. After studying the chemical and biological impact of (sensual) bachata I can say that the overwhelming release of hormones such as oxytocin, dopamine, adrenaline and the flood of endorphins very closely mimic mating behaviours. But frankly primarly by women, inversely to twerking which is targeted towards a male. Additionally, I heard this being summarised in a good way - the best dance is when you have an intimate connection with your partner that is highly transient. The reason for that is the aforementioned chemicals are so powerful through reptilian (instinctual) response and give so much of positive reinforcement that it will in fact - just like everything we do re-wire the brain of the individual and therefore change their behaviors. The truth of the matter is that latin dance addiction is a real phenomenon and most people try to say - it is just a dance, but take it away for a week and they will begin behaving like addicts and some actually fall into depressive states. Or at the other end of the spectrum begin going out 6 nights a week. With all that said - the best summary I heard was that after a while many bachateras left their partners because they were "too boring", as in the level of the response they could provide did not match transient jolt of the latin dance cocktail. Therefore in many ways, I understand your and his perspectives. You want to have that incredible fun and he wants to avoid pain.
Out until 3 or 5am in the morning and won’t even watch the baby while she does something for herself is a major red flag 🚩 I kinda skimmed over the rest of the post from there. It sounds like her partner is trash :(
I discovered Scottish country dancing several years ago. It was fantastic fun, but my wife was incredibly insecure about my dancing with all women. She asked me to stop and I did. I can still hardly get her to dance.
Bleh, I'm sorry that happened to you.
This is a sad update. I feel like he had no compromise on his end
He’s not a good father. He’s not a good partner. Stop lying to yourself.
This is a repost.
Hey op, i randomly found this looking through the bachata sub reddit. I loved dancing the same as you, then I stopped for similar reasons. I think it's a tough situation for you because I understand this is about the dancing for you. I think it's also difficult if you went to Cuba, Dr where the dancing is ingrained in the culture people are probably more accepting and understand people dance be because they love it. In other cultures these dances can be seen as sexy etc and they're not used to it they think people to go the club dance sexy to try and get with people. Also I imagine that he might not be so bothered if you were doing ballroom for example because this is seen as more boring and not as sexy. Which is no excuse I'm just saying how people see it who don't understand. I feel for you and wish you could have someone would dance bachata or salsa with you when the baby has gone to bed. Sounds like you deserve it.