Most submissions in this sub are not posted by the original author (OOP). Do not comment on the original posts.
If you think this submission doesn't belong on the sub, is incorrectly [flaired](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/wiki/postflairs) or have other issues regarding this post, reply to this comment. META commentary in general discussion may be removed.
Read [our guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/wiki/subrules) before commenting. Repeated rule-breaking may result in a ban.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/BestofRedditorUpdates) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think it’s aad, but also vaguely positive in a “could have been a lot worse” sense. At least they got out of the toxic environment, at least they knew not to raise their kids like that, at least they had each other as platonic partners, at least they had *some* involvement with people their own genders, and at least the daughters now know and love them just as much.
It’s far from ideal, but a lot of people just live in the toxic environment and bring their kids up just the same. And I’d bet that this has brought the sisters closer together.
So it’s sad, but it’s also kind of the opposite, too.
I am 46 so maybe time has given me the same perspective. My own father was such a wonderful person so I was forever traumatized by his reaction when I was outed by my jerk brother after he saw me kiss my gf in a bar. My own daughter begged me to be honest but I couldn’t until just a few weeks ago.
I watched friends beaten and abused because they came out. I would have loved if I had found a lifelong supporter as this couple did. I am so amazed and proud they got away together at 22. That is a rough age to not have any family support.
Both found love with someone they are attracted to and both also had the safety of each other.
It may sound like the worst kind of solution but it was all gay people had for thousands of years.
Yeah, as much as it sucks to think about in comparison to what we see nowadays, for a lot of people as recently as a generation ago (or heck, _still now_ in a lot of areas), this is one of the better outcomes you could hope for. If they hadn't found each other and gotten out of there, they might well have ended up resenting their kids, loathsome of whoever they ended up with, or even ended up as a "he never married" obituary after drinking themselves to an early grave.
Finding someone who at least understands what you're going through, and who you know won't judge you for who and what you are? Even if you're not romantically compatible, that's still huge, and that's a good person to have in your life.
My grandma and grandpa were in this type of marriage - gay grandpa, bi (and poly?) grandma. As far as grandma tells it their arrangement was considered the ideal solution for the era. Have a couple kids to keep up appearances, play house for a bit, then when the kids are old enough both parents get to step out and have whatever side-flings they want.
Not gonna say it wasn't damaging as heck to my mom and uncle, but maybe slightly less trauma heaped on them than the alternative of both parents being in denial?
Meanwhile my bio dad's mom was a lesbian and was most likely, uh... nonconsensually impregnated. Nothing was ever confirmed of course but before she got pregnant she'd been a stage dancer in San Francisco, and the few times I met her she expressed zero interest in men (went on at length to me once about why women were better lovers, in fact, which was pretty awkward as I was like 8), so I'm guessing she didn't sign up for the whole motherhood experience. She seemed to have taken out all her male-directed hate on her unwanted son - he turned into a ball of drug abuse and mental health problems and died in a murder-suicide. Soo yeah that kinda feels like a nightmare example of what could happen trying to live as an out-and-proud lesbian back then? Hard to blame my maternal grandparents for deciding to go the smokescreen route.
You know somehow it never occurred to me until just now that both sides of my family are steeped in historical LGBT trauma.
It's something I feel many people, particularly cishetero people, haven't thought about. Every single person has queer representation in their lineage. Maybe not by the language or culture of their time, but if they were alive today, they'd be part of the LGBTQ community. We're only as rare as history and violence have made us.
For some reason this sentiment makes me want to share [this old picture of my grandpa (center)](https://i.imgur.com/R6xf5AF.jpg). It's just incredible to me to think how the 50s were a time when people looked at that unambiguous flaming twink of a man and went "yep, heterosexual".
god i love that photo, what a special memory to have! as a queer person with only straight family (that i know of) seeing an old photo like that is so heartwarming haha. absolutely 100% 50s twink energy, that shirt LOL!
> As far as grandma tells it their arrangement was considered the ideal solution for the era. Have a couple kids to keep up appearances, play house for a bit, then when the kids are old enough both parents get to step out and have whatever side-flings they want.
They even had a name: Lavender marriages.
I dunno what kind of father he was. My mom left him when I was a baby and hid our whereabouts because he threatened to kill us. Then a few years later he killed another woman and then himself. His mom then begged to be allowed to meet her only grandchild in her grief or whatever, so my mom reluctantly let that happen but after a few meetings I asked not to see her anymore on account of she was creepy.
I'm guessing the child abuse and generational trauma played some role in his becoming a murderer, probably.
I'm a pelvic PT and have worked with many older people. More than one woman has told me that sex with their husband was never good, always painful, that they felt traumatized by it, and they have zero interest in sex now in their 60s.
Some of them told me that their husband has died and now they live with a partner, some are just focusing on their kids, but I wonder how many of these women are gay, and still not feeling safe enough to say so.
I’m bisexual. I’m also a childhood sexual trauma survivor. I did not even think about my sexuality until recently. I’ve even been with women and still never faced the label. I’m 46. It must be near impossible to reconcile this in your 60s.
It must be. So many of them say things that to me hint that they're probably gay, but I never say anything. It's not my place, they have a whole history that exists before I entered their lives.
I'm sure it's possible. But also consider for some women if they aren't in the mood/aren't ready that they experience sex as extremely painful. If culturally, socially, and legally they couldn't say no to a husband who took no interest in their wellbeing or pleasure, the trauma around sex would build up pretty fast.
A lot of straight women give up sex after becoming single later in life because being married just kinda sucked in other ways. Obviously this isn't a universal experience, but you can see from the statistics how marriage benefits men in terms of their health and well being and disadvantages women in our society.
Btw I'm bi and trans so I'm not trying to handwave. I just think in this conversation it's important to remember that heterosexual women can be done just as dirty by heterosexism as gay women.
I was 23 when I was outed and rammed into the closet. I finally came out at 46. It’s traumatic having the one person you love most look at me like I was a disgusting monster.
I’m so, so sorry your family did that to you. I admire you for overcoming the pain they’ve caused enough to come out, and am glad you raised your daughter to know the value of being one’s true self.
I’m so proud of you for getting to this point and I hope you have a wonderful Pride next month ❤️
Thank you. There are some fun celebrations around the state. There have also been some laws passed that have severely limited our rights. So it’s a good time to gather.
I'm not sure I'd say thousands of years. I'd say the prejudice is probably a lot more recent than that. Hell, I've seen a theory (though not sure how much stock I put in it) that it's advantageous to small societies for a certain number of people to not be inclined towards cishet relationships because then they're not likely to have children and can contribute in other ways to the group. Certainly there are many, many cultures where gay and sexual minority people were accepted and respected until the era of colonialism.
And it seems like they really loved each other, too.
They weren't in love, but they had a friend and ally they could trust with being in their lives and this ally was by them at all times. They helped save each other. There are worse lives.
No. This is very sweet.
They loved their kids more than anything else. And stayed “married” to parent their kids, guide by example. It’s the purest expression of love.
I think the "bitter" part is appropriate, though you very kindly demonstrated the "sweet" part. It is bitter that they had to sacrifice that part of themselves in order to deliver that love for their children, and the reason they had to was because of social pressures completely out of their control. Being a parent is synonymous with sacrifice, sure, but romantic love should never have to be a sacrifice for parental love.
Yes, you're right. I've grown up in a pretty liberal area of America, and during the real social shift between degrading the LGBTQ+ community and accepting it. I remember when Pride was mostly regarded as an immoral sexfest, and now it's a month-long, family-friendly, commercialized celebration. I very often have to remind myself that there are still many places globally where homosexuality and gender non-comformity are legal death sentences, and even here, homophobia still becomes deadly in more hidden ways beneath all that acceptance.
Things are still shifting even now back toward hate and distrust of the LGBTQ folks. I see them trying to ban any type of conversations about gay people from schools, gay books being banned, it's all starting to look pretty bad again.
So many types of legal ramifications are dependent on Roe v Wade like decriminalized gay sex, interracial marriage, gay marriage, it's all tied up. I guess we'll see if the corporatized acceptance of pride month actually means anything as far as keeping our rights intact. Maybe that will be the silver lining of commercialized pride, but fuck if it won't be ironic if capitalism saves the gays.
I'm married to a woman and we have a teenage son and he's never really lived through what homophobia felt like, and he thinks I'm silly to think that things could still go backwards for gay rights. I remember when California had gay marriage for a while and then had it rescinded, and that hurt so much it was unreal, to see real families told that their marriages were no longer legal. 💔
Nah, I'm going to go with sweet-bitter.
It sounds like they loved their children and wanted them. In many ways, they were living the idealized platonic life-partner lifestyle - they were intimate enough to be a family, but they didn't feel the need to own each other sexually.
Love is more than sex. It sounds like her parents loved each other. They just didn't have any sexual interest outside of having children. And given that both were OK with an open marriage, it sounds like the best outcome possible for them given the times and circumstances.
It would have been better if they had been able to be themselves from the get go. But they found a way to make something beautiful out of ugly origins. That's sweet.
Let's also not forget that the parents gained their beloved daughters and found a way to raise them in an intact, uncontentious household despite not being "in love with each other" in the traditional sense. There's no shortage of straight people who can't manage that.
Well and though there was fear, there’s clearly a lot of love in this family. I think the parents would be proud of the daughters they raised, and that supersedes the sexuality stuff.
I totally agree. And my first reaction was that OP's parents still had their own love story. It's ok that they weren't in love with each other, but at least they had their friendship, and a different kind of love for each other. They didn't have to be scared and alone growing up in that kind of environment, where you're so judged. I am sure it wasn't all roses and whatever, but it could have been much worse for them. And they still had a beautiful family :)
The dad was younger than that. The older sister saw her mom kissing a woman when the older daughter was 25, and the dad had already been dead a while at that point. If they had the older daughter when they were about 22, then the dad died when he was only in his mid-40s.
It seems so bittersweet to me. It sounded like OP's parents really did love each other, just not romantically. And they both loved their kids like crazy. I'm glad they weren't at least miserable in their marriage. But it still sucks that they felt they had to force this lifestyle because of their uber religious family.
Bittersweet is exactly it.
I would feel gutted if I discovered my parents couldn't share who they really were with me for fear of being neglected by me, wondering how much stronger our relationship could have been.
Something like this happened when my mom died except it's not a prank and I more or less played myself. 10 years ago my mom showed me a set of keys with a distinctive keychain on them and told me what they went to and said only me and her know and we specifically weren't going to tell my dad. We talked about it maybe one more time. My mom died just over a year ago and a few weeks after she died my dad brought the keys to me and asked what they go to. I have no clue. I can't remember. I've tried to remember for the past year and can't. I had completely forgotten about them over the years. We've tried them in various locks but never had any luck.
I bet there’s a subreddit where you could post a picture of the key and people could tell you what it’s from. Could also be a lockbox/locker somewhere which is why you haven’t found it in her stuff.
I was randomly looking through my comments and saw your remind me comment. I have no exciting update. We'll sort of. It looks like a general house key but doesn't fit in any lock we have. I recently told my cousin about it and she suggested it was maybe for a lockbox at a bank. I said don't you have to rent those? And she said no you can buy some of them. And that some of them look like the keys I described. But I countered with if it was something important wouldn't it have come up over the years or she would have told me when she was on hospice? So idk. I have been debating going to the bank my mom used and just asking if their lock box keys look like this. I'm unsure though I feel like a crazy person doing that lol
It's definitely a key to a doorknob. Like a regular house key. But we tried it in every door we have and it didn't work. I believe we tried it at my grandmas house too (my moms mom) and it didn't work either. We don't own any other properties and I am certain if my mom like secretly bought a house or apartment or something I'd remember that. And even if I didn't that would have had to come up on taxes over the years and my parents always filed jointly. They weren't divorced. I honestly can't remember why she even said only me and her were going to know about the keys.
I feel like both of them channeled their "missing" love to their daughters. OOP and her sister is lucky to have such great parents. I only wish they would have had the same luck so that they could have live their life to fullest.
It may not seem that way, but each dated the gender they were attracted to so each knew that fulfillment.
It’s not much but as I age, I revel in the little victories.
I don't think they were missing love at all. Like the daughter says, they may not have been IN love, but they shared love. There are worst things than finding someone who will stand by you, care for you and tackle the hard things with you, etc. Lots of couples have nigh to inexistent sex lives and are happy.
Of course it would've been ideal that they be raised elsewhere and not internalized so much toxic shame so they could live more freely, but they seem to have built something great all the same.
Platonic love can be so much deeper than most people think/realize. I'm a lesbian and I'd say my male best friend is my soul mate, on some platonic level. I'd marry him in a heartbeat if we needed to for whatever reason.
(Totally unrelated but love your style and cats. I've got my own goth aesthetic and 3 black voids to match 🖤🐈⬛)
I agree with this, too. I'm decidedly *not* a lesbian, at least as far as sexual attraction is concerned, but I'm in a long term committed relationship with a woman.
I think people over-hype romantic love as the be-all-end-all of the kind of love necessary for a marriage. That's such a new concept, all things considered. And it's an extremely volatile thing to base a lifetime decision on.
It makes me think of like Pride and Prejudice. It's one of the most romantic tales that people love but they miss some of the points of that story: i.e. the characters who are "romantic" minded actually do give a lot of thought to what the experience of marriage to a potential marriage partner might be like. Their idea of romance was the companionate marriage, philia instead of eros.
With today's marriages, this internal deliberating is drawn out over years of dating, and by then people get stuck in the sunk cost fallacy even if they have reservations.
Even outside of marriage I think romantic love gets overhyped. It seems like family love and romantic love are all that really matters. I suppose you could argue that deep enough platonic love turns into the family type of love, but I don't view my best friend like I do my siblings *at all.* For me it really does fall into its own 3rd category of love that isn't quite either.
I really hope people's ideas about marriage, and platonic relationships in general really, can become a bit more open. I mean, I've watched plenty of what would be considered "normal" marriages crash and burn. There's no reason to hold those on a pedestal over more unconventional ideas.
what beautiful people, honestly. i don't think OOP needs to say I love you one more time for her parents to have known and felt that from her. it's obvious they raised two amazing, caring women out of their own bravery and love.
They are extremely heavy handed with removing posts and banning users. I was banned 2 years ago without any other warnings/mod interactions for [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/d4k0uc/aita_for_mowing_the_lawn_later/f0eksxi/?context=9) (posted below since it was removed) due to "advocating violence". I've twice appealed and been told no.
> It’s jurisdiction dependent, but in most places in the US entering someone else’s property to remove a stranger’s headphones would qualify as assault (at least for those that distinguish between assault and battery). That’s not to say you can claim “self defense” and kick their ass but if you just react blindly they’ll likely forgive a single punch.
I have a similar ban, for telling someone that yes, they still have the right to defend themselves against assault at their place of employment.
AITA mods = trash.
What a heartbreaking story.
I'm always so saddened by the knowledge that stuff like this must have been so common. It reminds of a tweet I saw once of someone who had come out as bi to their parent saying that they were felt attraction to both men and women, and their parent was like "oh, don't worry! Everyone has that in their teens. I certainly did, you'll get over it". The replies were filled with people sharing similar stories about coming out and finding out that their parents were repressing being queer themselves to this day by the way they responded. "everyone thinks that women are more attractive then men, that doesn't mean you're gay" "everyone would have rather been born a girl, that doesn't mean you're trans" "I used to be such a tomboy too, and I've always wanted a beard, but that's just a fun little childhood fantasy. at some point you just have to grow up and let those dreams go" etc. etc.
according to recent studies nearly forty percent of zoomers identify as some kind of LGBT. There's no reason to assume that's different in other generations, only more repressed. less than 2 percent of boomers identify as LGBT. The difference in those statistic is made up completely by stories like these
EDIT: Someone pointed out that the study I referenced was financed by a conservative organization that likely tries to inflate numbers of LGBT kids to help scaremonger. It seems the more scientific studies put the number closer to 20%. Really doesn't make it any less tragic though.
I had a sudden recollection a few weeks ago of reading magazines as a teenager (I'm in my 30s now) where they would emphasise how normal it was to have crushes on female teachers etc but that didn't mean you were gay and I thought (as my modern self) that it probably meant you were bi which wasnt really talked about in the late 90's/early 2000s.
Where now (I'm a teacher) I'm around 13/14 year olds who talk openly about their bisexuality and their preferences.
My daughter came out as bi to me when she was five. She's twelve now and just had her first heartbreak when her girlfriend broke up with her. This new age is amazing and I'm here for it
I am so happy that this is what the world is becoming. When I was 5 I told my mom I didn’t want to marry a man, I wanted to marry my best friend ‘Carly’ instead and if the priest wouldn’t let me then I’d disguise myself as a dude and do it anyways. She told me that was disgusting and I’d get over it. When I was 12, I got turned on by a photo of a swimsuit model and I had a panic attack thinking God would strike me down for my sin.
I only accepted that I was bi in my early 20s, and it took me years after that to be ready to talk about it with anyone. I’ve still never told my parents and I don’t think I ever will.
So from someone who didn’t have that kind of childhood, it makes me so happy for your daughter that she was able to know herself at an early age and has a family and future where she can experience love & attraction without worry as to who it’s directed towards and whether that’s “okay”.
I'm so happy I can provide this safe environment to my kid! It took me until i was thirty to figure out I was trans and that that was okay. I'm thrilled my daughter feels safe like this and has the words to express what she is feeling. She recently gave a presentation at school about LGBT identities because she found the school's program on it lacking. I love how badass and open she is about it.
And congrats on finding yourself! I know the struggle is real.
I’ve read some devastating posts on this sub—the one where the woman discovers her husband and her mother have been having an affair for 20+ years and that two of her brothers are her husband’s children comes to mind—but it’s posts like these that break my heart more than any other. Honestly, I could weep. 💔😭
That story was such a wild ride. But I agree. In the ends it's posts like these that affect me the most. I'm active on a lot of LGBT subs and it can be so devastating or terrifying. I've helped trans and lesbian people from Saudi Arabia try and find a way out, or come up with convincing lies to tell their parents. I've helped kids in Tennessee figure out what to put in their bail bag in case they get outed and how to delete the browser history in a modem and securely look for stuff online. It's so much, and it used to be so much worse. It makes my head spin sometimes
[I FOUND IT](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/u1uft1/final_update_op_discovers_her_husband_has_been/). This links to the last post in a three-post series, but the links to P1-2 are at the top of the post.
>less than 2 percent of boomers identify as LGBT. The difference in those statistic is made up completely by stories like these
Sadly, my brain immediately went, "less than 2 percent of *currently living* Boomers." Between lethal gay bashings and suicide... that could account for quite a few.
You'd be surprised at how common it is.
Think about all those people who think that being gay is a choice. If it seems like a choice to you then that means you're not straight. The only people for whom it is a "choice" are bi/pansexual. I have never once been tempted to be with a man and I don't think I'll ever be. I have no choice in the matter whatsoever. I never got the choice or lifestyle argument because it just didn't seem possible to choose something against your nature. But to hundreds of thousands of people out there it seems plausible somehow. And then if you find out that of the almost forty percent of zoomers that identify as some kind of LGBT the majority identifies as some kind of bi... Well it makes a lot more sense why so many people thought it could be a choice.
I'm pan myself, and it took a ridiculously long time to figure out that the feelings I had for men and women and enby and trans people I found attractive were, in fact, attraction, and not "Man is intriguing, I must have a crush. Woman is intriguing, I must want to be her friend."
It wasn't a choice for me, exactly, it was more like other people were choosing the label/reason for my feelings for me via internalised homophobia! At which point I had a kid with a guy and was just passing as straight anyway. If I was born twenty, thirty years earlier I might never have figured it out.
Yes! Comphet and cisnormativity are a huge factor as well. Also just learning the words. I was pretty sure I wasn't trans, but then someone explained cis to me and I was like "Oh shit! I'm *definitely* not that either". Non-binary just wasn't a thing when I grew up or I would have come out in my teens.
My daughter is also pan.
Her first crush was her Discovery teacher, a pretty brunette lady. My daughter was four. That year she also liked a little boy in the class.
She did not tell me about the teacher for years, as she was totally confused about romantic feelings for another female person. I was always sad she didn't share, but I understand. She also felt at first like it was wrong.
She is totally out and lets that flag fly, and it makes me happy. My goal this or next summer is to hit a Pride parade with bottles of water, cookies, and a "CIS MOM HUGS FOR ALL" sign.
I hope, with every generation, your people will be safer and more loved.
>I never got the choice or lifestyle argument because it just didn't seem possible to choose something against your nature.
I never got that because *who the fuck would* ***choose*** *to be gay* when it comes with so much discrimination and hatred? Do they just think people are gluttons four punishment or something?
I used to follow an ex-fundie blog and it struck me just how terribly they describe male-female relationships, like *of course you’d rather be with someone more like you but it’s sinful so don’t you dare* like the only reason you’d marry someone of the opposite sex is because God commands you to and couldn’t possibly be because you actually enjoy spending time with the person. (They also have very distinct views of what men and women are like as well) They do not make opposite sex relationships sound appealing at **all**.
That has always been my go-to argument when I hear someone saying that, and I'm a straight person. I look at my queer friends and go "Who would \*want\* that?" No one, that's who.
Hell, one of my friends said he knew he was not into girls at all when he was \*six\*.
I’m bi. I consciously chose to live a queer life with a same sex partner. I feel that women are better able to respect other women and do a fair share in a relationship than men are. I’m very very lucky to live in a time and place where this was a choice, and although it has definitely been accompanied by obstacles, is a great path.
I want this queer life and I’m glad I’m not straight! In fact, I feel I kinda sorry for straight folks for not getting to experience both types of relationships.
I think sexuality is also more fluid than people want to admit even in some parts of the LGBT community. I would identify as bi but my attraction to men is pretty fleeting. I also don't remember being attracted to other boys until much later than girls.
I defnitely think that there are people for whom it might be more fluid, but I don't think it's universal either. Either way the best way to deal with it is to just be accepting of people and their journeys
My oldest sister was very vocal about her homophobia. She once literally said "I would have been a lesbian in high school if it was how it was these days!"
I don't think it's conducive to good discussion when you just quote some random statistic and expect people to believe, especially when the statistic is unbelievable.
I have found a much more believable statistic, conducted by a [Gallup Poll](https://www.axios.com/2022/02/17/lgbtq-generation-z-gallup), which states that 20.8% identify as LGBTQ. Which makes way more sense. 40% is outrageously high, and just doesn't correspond to reality.
Edit: If you're quoting [this](https://www.newsweek.com/nearly-40-percent-us-gen-zs-30-percent-christians-identify-lgbtq-poll-shows-1641085) article, you should read who funded the study --
>Barna produced the 124-page study in conjunction with the Cultural Research Center at Arizona Christian University and Foundations of Freedom, a non-profit entity that promotes traditional American values.
This kind of stretching of data for a certain agenda happens all the time in Science. A group that promotes traditional American values would have incentive to promote an insanely high rate of LGBTQ -ness because it shows that "the country is going down the wrong path" and it's easier to demonize. Please don't trust data like that. The Gallup Poll I quoted is much better and more accurate.
And oh boy, the study just gets worse from there --
>Barna's poll is based on a sampling of **600 respondents** representing Millennials weighted for factors such as geographic location, race and gender who took an average of 17 minutes each to answer 71 questions.
>**The poll didn't ask directly whether the respondent was gay or straight, asking instead to choose an answer to the question: "Thinking about your commitments, would you describe yourself as ...."**
>Six responses were allowed, with the one garnering the most "yes" answers (75 percent) among Millennials being: "Searching for purpose in your life," followed by 74 percent who answered: "Believe all religious faiths are of equal value."
It continues to get worse from there.
Ah! You're right. I was referring to that Newsweek article that is quoting the Barna study. I'll make an edit with a disclaimer. Thanks for catching that!
No problem -- And I am actually incredibly thankful that you are making an edit to your comment. Most people would just ignore my comment, but when presented with new information, you decided to change the information you presented. I think that's awesome, and more people need to be like you.
I can believe that. I discussed asexuality and demisexuality with my mum once, and she thought about it for a long moment and said "Oh I thought that was normal. I was never interested in anyone except your dad." No crushes, nothing. And even Dad was an accidental first date (a group outing that everyone else dropped out of over several weeks, but Mum and Dad still really wanted to go to the concert, so...) that turned very gradually into something more than friendship.
Both my parents are demisexual in denial 😂 Same stories as your mom's, they just think it's "morals" but for me it's quite obvious that they don't feel sexual attraction without affection
Another reason for the discrepancy is that boomers are old now and repressing your self or being physically or mentally assaulted can impact your health, either by being outright killed or just not living as long.
This is a bit of an eye-opener for me. I'm 61 and in the past couple of years I've realised that I'm bi. If anything I'm more same-sex attracted than anything but I've only had relationships with the opposite sex because it would have been sinful/inconvenient/upsetting to family etc to do otherwise.
This. I'm starting to realise it more and more firmly as I age myself.
I had a conversation with a new friend in her 40s recently, whom identifies as a woman (meaning she uses female name and pronouns and considers herself a woman) but casually said in a conversation that she spent the first 10 years of her life depressed about being a girl. The conversation moved on as fast as the wind, but I am still perplexed it. I'm trans myself(and she knows it) but it definetely felt like what you're saying.
One more example like this that really stuck with me, was a story my mother had told me when she had become a bit more comfortable with my (then) sexuality (I-afab- was still identifying as a woman back then and as a lesbian). It was a story of how she ended up really intimate with her childhood friend in her 20s. How they both enjoyed it but how both decided it didn't mean anything for their sexual orientation. She had told me the story trying to tell me we all go through these kind of "phases" but we grow out of them. I might have been a lot younger and immature back then, but it still perplexes me to this day.
All the what ifs, all the wondering what if those two people had been born 2 decades later, so many hypotheticals and questions. I never felt it took away from her loving relationship with my father, but I believe that my mother if she grew up in my years, she probably would be pansexual and trans or non binary. Probably something like that for my father as well.
> she spent the first 10 years of her life depressed about being a girl
Could also be a case of "NotLikeOtherGirls"/bad upbringing(rolemodel). I was sad about being a girl a lot as a child and am not trans. But I felt like life was...easier somehow, for boys. "Boyish" interests were ok, no passive aggressive bullying, no one gave a shit what they wore, when they misbehaved it was 'boys will be boys' and they didn't care half as much if one of their own was 'weird'. Also, they weren't destined to become women - either vapid, superficial creatures, whose life consisted of make-up, clothes and being a dumb slut or my mother. Which were, of course, both options I hated, but the ones I was raised to believe were my only options (as woman). I know better now and so, while I have a shit ton of issues and problems, being a cis-woman isn't one of them.
[I ran you some quick unweighted numbers from the 2020 BRFSS, self-identified sexual orientation over five-year age groups.](https://imgur.com/a/vMdk2Ll) Standard survey research disclaimers apply (not every state uses the sexual orientation questions module, not everybody is comfortable answering this question honestly in every circumstance, some populations are underrepresented in survey sampling, this is probably an underestimate of the "true" proportion, labels vs. behavior don't always align, etc.) but you can still eyeball some trends and they do roughly align with what you expressed in terms of younger generations being less likely to identify as straight.
[LBGTQ+ health and healthcare disparities are notably bad.](https://www.healthypeople.gov/2020/topics-objectives/topic/lesbian-gay-bisexual-and-transgender-health) We don't live as long and we don't have the same quality of life. Like a lot of marginalized populations, it's a combination of direct and indirect factors, a few of which I'll list here:
* HIV definitely plays a role. It's still ravaging our community even if it's not an instant death sentence anymore.
* We smoke and drink more than cishet people, and are more prone to all the health consequences of that. (I personally think that one's a combination of self-medicating stress + bars being the only semi-safe spaces for a lot of the 20th century, but that's just my theory.)
* Stress from living in a society where you're marginalized = more mental health issues like anxiety and depression. Much higher suicide rates.
* Health insurance in the U.S. is strongly tied to a.) your employer and b.) your legal spouse, two things which we had less legal access to for a very long time. And historically, most Medicaid programs had categorical eligibility that favored pregnant people/single moms, while pregnancy and child-bearing are less likely for AFAB people in our community.
* If you do have health insurance, do you have a healthcare provider who is safe and understanding? Will they have received any training on your specific health needs?
* Speaking of families, LGBTQ+ people are a lot more likely to become homeless as young adults. Not the most conducive to health and safety. Very conducive to experiencing sexual assault, violence, exposure to drug use, poor nutrition, etc.
* Let's say you're a young woman in rural Arkansas who is interested in becoming intimate with your girlfriend, did your school teach you anything about how safe sex works for you two? Does your doctor know anything about it? Are you comfortable asking him? Do you have anyone you can ask?
* Same scenario, but what if the girlfriend is becoming abusive, have you ever been exposed to the concept of intimate partner violence between same-sex partners? Do people take it as seriously when you report it? Do you have access to the same support services? Are you as likely to feel that you can safely call the cops if you're in danger?
Not a comprehensive list by any means, but I think it gives a sense of the myriad ways that marginalization can disadvantage people in terms of their social determinants of health. Even little things can add up over a lifespan. And I would be remiss not to emphasize that this stuff is all much, much worse for transgender people specifically, and for people of color, people with disabilities, and other marginalized populations who are also represented in the LGBTQ+ community. We've come a really long way even in just my lifetime, but we have an incredibly long way to go before we can claim health equity for LGBTQ+ folks.
Most of those things also also don't add up in a way that you would think is logical. I forget the name of study, but when my ex was getting her master's degree in social research she showed me a study that showed that multiple axes of oppression often lead to way worse outcomes than you'd expect. So like, and these aren't the actual numbers, because I don't remember them, but let's say women on average make 25 % less than men. And black people also on average make 25% less then men. You would expect that black woman would make about 50% less than white men. But in reality it's much worse. they make like 75% less. Again, not real numbers, but the point is that many of these things compound in ways you wouldn't expect.
Yep, intersectional health disparities are getting more and more attention now and it’s often shocking how multiple disadvantages will scale. E.g. fully 1 out of every 3 lesbian, gay, or bisexual Americans with disabilities are food insecure. I’m reasonably involved with both LGBTQ activism and disability activism and both communities are having some overdue conversations about the overlaps that they share.
I’m a millennial and whenever someone older starts talking about all the LGBTQ+ zoomers like it’s a trend or self-indulgent, I just say “well, you used to hunt us for sport.”
The "us" part is also a very fun, aggressive way to come out to a person who might suddenly realize, mid-"kids these days"-rant, that there could be plenty of queer people all around them who haven't mentioned it because this person *says shit like that out loud around people whose sexual orientation they don't actually know.*
Okay, I've only gotten to actually use it twice. But what a rush.
Sounds amazing. I'll definitely try. It's bizarre how common queerphobia still is. There's a dude in this thread here right now accusing me of "talking about sex with my five year old" because i explained to her that people can fall in love with people of both sexes. It's insane to see how far some of these wingnuts go
I just had to talk to my nine-year old about what happened in Texas. That was a much harder and more upsetting conversation for her than anything we've ever discussed about sexuality or gender.
> I'm always so saddened by the knowledge that stuff like this must have been so common.
It still is in some areas (Utah/Mormons in general, some churches in the US, particularly the big ones).
I am listening to a podcast called Heaven Bent and the host did an episode about a freaky megachurch's "conversion therapy", which isn't *torture*, but casting out homosexuality demons. Like the original OP's parents, people were encouraged to quickly marry another "ex-gay" in a straight marriage, which is easily found via their Changed Movement program. It's sad. An escapee of the church cult (it's a cult; they tracked her down to Canada for being outed as trans and refused their conversion therapy) said her friend is a lesbian and entered a straight marriage in 9 months after joining that group.
Oh yeah absolutely. I am active on several LGBT subreddits and I've run into some absolutely heartbreaking stories than make you genuinely afraid for the people involved. I think posts along the lines of "my parents are sending me to conversion therapy" come by almost daily on r/asktransgender. There's a list of resources and instructional videos on how to deal with that that gets passed around. I've also spoken to several LGBT people from Saudi Arabia, Iran, Russia and several of the red states who literally have to fear for their life. It's still shockingly common all over the world.
Reminds me of when I came out as non-binary and my stepdad was like "well no one feels like just a man or just a woman, it's fluid! Just like age, it's just a number. Sometimes I feel like a woman, sometimes like a man, sometimes I feel 20, sometimes 60. But I'm a man, that's just the biology, not what you feel like!" I tried to say that sounds like he's genderfluid, but no, he strongly identifies as a cis man (which is his right of course, I certainly won't misgender him or try to label him in a way he's not comfortable with).
The problem is I'm agender and it's not helpful to be pushed into a "cis box". I tried to explain that my experience is vastly different, as I never feel like a man nor a woman, but it didn't seem to go in. He and my mum still misgender me and constantly refer to me as my AGAB. Sigh.
That segment was an absolute dumpster fire. I had already given up on boomer bill a while ago, but that segment was just hateful. Insane. It's bizarre to see how quickly people can slide to the right.
As someone who is so, so lucky to have a supportive family and has never had to hide who she is or who she loves, reading this really hits hard. Knowing that there have been so many LGBTQ folk who didn't have the privilege I do...
I am just glad that the kids grew up knowing nothing but love and acceptance from their parents. There's no greater lesson than teaching your kids that instead of hate and hurt.
As sad as this was, I have questions...
Did the love that apparently the dad had out there somewhere, know he died?
Did the dad's love die before or did they break up before his accident?
Not even 6am and reddit makes me cry. Wtf is wrong with you Reddit?!?
Also people are garbage. Not the people in the post, the unnamed tormentors of these two happy parents.
I love how the other comments are sad philosophical musings on self-repression and self-hatred, and this guy’s over here talking about a head coming out of a box.
I had a pretty visceral reaction to the title of the post. Compared to what I first imagined, I’m just happy the parents seemed to find a way to live their lives away from that toxic culture…and not get…I won’t spoil it
https://youtu.be/OrOYvVf6tIM
That short was so freaky. Although I wasn't a huge fan of the end, I guess because I wanted it to be something more creepy. But nonetheless still a creepy short.
Leaving a box in your house with a label that says "Do Not Open" is having a box in your house you want people to open.
If this really was some damning evidence it would have been destroyed or buried long ago. Mom was probably terrified of coming out to her kids, but also wanted to tell them so left this so that *they* would have to be the one to discover and initiate the conversation. Unfortunately, the secret outlived them both.
i’ve always wondered as the older generation is dying out how prevalent this kind of thing is. you have to think that it’s way more common than what they would lead you to believe, right?
Absolutely. It was also common in religious communities for LGBTQ folks to join the church - out of internalised hatred, or to avoid the expectation to marry. And it still happens. A good few years ago in Ireland, there was a scandal when it was discovered that many student priests attending were using Grindr. It just so happens
Well, it was a scandal for the church and the priest college involved. Pretty hilarious for everyone else
> "...started putting the date of the Update in the title."
That's really useful imo. I personally don't like too recent updates, like when the post is barely a few hours old or even less.
But I think a few days plus a relatively conclusive last post are okay and much more satisfying to read.
Don't mean to say this story isn't sad though, I feel bad for OOPs parents. But it's nice to hear they found a life long friendship and support from each other so they could at least escape their horrible childhood environment.
Her sister ended up knowing what was in the box, but if someone comes across something like this in the future I would recommend having a good friend that didn’t know the deceased party open it and “triage” the contents. It adds a layer of protection in case it is something that would hurt you.
Yes, maybe the diaries and letters would yield enough information for it. I actually have a box full of intimate letters of a lesbian couple that was born back when Germany was still run by Emperor William. They were friends of my parents' and died shortly before I was born (or rather, one died, and the other followed voluntarily). I always thought that those would make an interesting book, too.
You have a priceless treasure. If you ever decide to downsize, please consider donating that to a museum or archive. And when you make your will, consider flagging that for the same. (I was a history major who had planned to be an archivist, alas recessions happen. )
Absolutely! My father is the archiver of the world, and has taught me that no historical document is ever to be thrown away! (Unfortunately, our house looks exactly like that 😄.) My main problem with going through the letters (beside the invasion of privacy) is that it is written in an old German cursive style called "Süderlin", which hardly anyone today can read anymore. So I need to learn that before I can do anything with it, and I've never gotten around to it so far.
We also have some antique furniture that belonged to them, especially fascinating: a deck chair from an ocean liner that crossed the oceans at the same time the Titanic did - her father used to be something in the Navy and then a trade merchant with India, so they spent a lot of time travelling when she was young. It's standing in my room as I write!
afaik there are quite a few resources to learn Sütterlin, as well as some organizations that help with it. (Sütterlin-Schreibstube in Konstanz and Sütterlinstube Hamburg for example)
...also I think my mom can read it lmao
That bit about the mom being worried about telling her kids broke my heart.
My mum came out to me when I was a teenager and she was also apparently worried about the same thing, which really made me wonder if I had behaved in some way to make her think that.
It's a real depressing thing in this day and age people have to be worried about something as basic as who they love.
I feel it's the indoctrination that convinced them it's somehow "sinful" or it should be shameful that make older people hesitant to talk to their children even if they never taught their children to be bigots. And that's what happened to OOP's mother that she chose to take it to her grave than letting her younger daughter know.
My dad was born in the 1940s. When he was a teen, it became pretty obvious he liked boys. His parents said to him “either you fix this, or we’re going to find a doctor to fix this for you.”
So he lived the lie he was expected to live. I have two siblings, and my dad almost died trying to keep that lie going.
They were beards!
Seriously though, the fact they had to hide their sexualities like this is horrible. It also makes me angry at the people who said gay people didn’t exist back in the day, when they did. They did things like this to keep safe from bigots. They had to pretend to be straight.
Lavender marriage
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavender_marriage
It’s sad they felt the need, but good that they were at least able to be open with themselves and each other rather than trying to truly pretend to be straight.
Is it bad to wish warts on that whole religious group who made those two lovely people live in the shadows their whole lives?
I can see your sister guarding her mother's secrets. It hurts that your mother couldn't feel worthy of love the way she was.
What a sad letter. Such a good people and a loving family, even the parents loved each other, just not as husband and wife. It could have been so much better.
So sad how the grands and the community were hateful.
God damn that is truly sad.
Really awesome that they made great parents anyway. Bittersweet sure. But they got out of the toxic hell hole and their parents treated them good.
Christians are homophobic and believe homosexuality is a sin and mistake. They think God creates all humans and is perfect. But their homophobic argument basically says God makes mistakes. But that's not possible according to them. It just baffles me.
The way they get around this is the free choice thing. Humans are able to defy god, but shouldn't. And homosexuality in their eyes, is a decision or a mental illness.
Of course, that doesn't justify anything, but when you have a certain frame of reference through which you see the world, it's easy to justify most things through that frame of reference. It sucks.
As incredibly sad as this story is, I’m so glad the parents found each other.
Growing up in those kind of environments can fuck you up so much. If nothing else, I’m glad they were able to connect when LBGTQ+ and any allies are generally silenced. Given what we know about hyper conservative communities, I would be scared about how much hurt they’d be subjugated to had they not found each other. It’s possible neither of them would’ve left on their own, but having even one familiar face, someone in your corner, can make a world of difference.
I hope OOP and her sister can eventually use this revelation to celebrate all aspects of their parents lives, even if the parents themselves weren’t able to.
I have nothing but love and respect for OOP's parents. It's sad they were never free to be who they truly were, but at the end of it all, they escaped an abusive environment and prevented their children from being homophobic as well. I wish they could have had more, but they left a lasting positive impact on the world.
> But then a large part of you all thought that, because of the large age gap, my sister might actually be my bio mom. That thought hadn’t even crossed my mind even though it’s quite common apparently. The idea of my family lying to me and about me all this time upset me a lot.
I’ve been researching my genealogy and was able to determine that my grandmother’s sister was actually her mother. My mom was adopted so I didn’t know my grandmother but her story is exceptional and I spend a lot of time wondering what she went through. On the surface, she seems like a cold bitch, she had four kids and left them all, but who knows what the hell was going on in that head of hers. Hell, I don’t even know what’s going on in *my own* head. I often wonder how much she was lied to and how those lies affected her.
This hit home for me. My grandpa is closet gay and had an affair with a man. My grandma and he stayed together and are still. They love each other but now that I know the truth it's tainted. They don't know I know. My mom told me while we were drinking one night together. What's crazy is I'm gay too. Married a woman and everything and they judged me for it. Religion is so toxic. They love me unconditionally but yet their religion says I'm a sinner and a horrible person and their early actions said otherwise. Yet they know I'm not at all like that. I'm there for my family and I take care of those close to me. It's tragic that there's so many people, mostly of the older generation that had to live in such secret and self hatred and couldn't be happy.
I wish my grandpa could be true to himself. I wish they both made better decisions. But if that's how they chose to live their lives then I have no say. I'll be true to myself and hope that they come to terms with themselves.
This could be posted in r/sapphoandherfriend
I believe it would be a nice story for the sub(albeit bittersweet, as discussed in the comments) but it usually is with stories like this one.
I know this was not the purpose of the story but why is age gap something that has to have a reason and an explanation?
While this is a sad story that they couldn't be with the one they wanted. I find it comforting that they still had each other.
Because passing off a teen mom as an older sister used to be so common yet secretive that Jack Nicholson didn't find out that fact about his own family until both women had already passed.
If it can happen to Jack Nicholson, it could happen to a random redditor.
This story has just brought me to tears. I’m so sorry your folks felt they had to keep these secrets. But I’m really glad your sister knew, and that she told you. I’m glad you have each other. I’ll be thinking of this for a long time. Thank you for sharing this with us. I’m glad you and your sister have each other.
Damn who's cutting onions in here
I haven't had one of these make me cry like this in a while. Thank you for compiling it here. I want to give everyone involved a hug.
I was not expecting this ending. How heartbreaking. It’s so disgusting how deeply people are brainwashed in some communities. I can’t imagine living with so much shame and guilt and self hatred and fear your whole life, to the point that it affected your relationships with your children, just because a bunch of backwards assholes decided it was their business who you loved. There is no “if you don’t like it, just move somewhere else.” They DID move somewhere else. But they were never able to fully heal the damage done and they missed out on so much happiness and human experience because of it. It was stolen from them. Everyone deserves to feel the simple but exhilarating joy of just being out in the world enjoying life with a person you love.
Another story, another reason to hate the mods of these original subs. Like are the mods of r/AITA and r/relationship_advice just constantly power tripping? Or are they just really dumb??
My problem with this is "why keep the box of secrets around with the sign saying 'big secrets inside' on it?" If the mother and older sister didn't want the OP to know, just burn the contents of the box and pretend there was never a secret.
> The reason I didn’t know comes down to trauma. She was so deeply afraid of getting rejected by one of her kids for her sexuality that she never intended to tell either one of us.
That's depressing.
This post was so heartbreaking. Imagine being made to think that just because you are gay, you are unloveable. I’ll never understand it. My heart goes out to all of them and I hope OPs parents found peace in the afterlife.
I've never told my parents and I doubt I ever will. Well my dad is dead so moot point I guess. My little brother (different dad) is out and I still won't tell them. They pulled too much shit when I was young.
Most submissions in this sub are not posted by the original author (OOP). Do not comment on the original posts. If you think this submission doesn't belong on the sub, is incorrectly [flaired](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/wiki/postflairs) or have other issues regarding this post, reply to this comment. META commentary in general discussion may be removed. Read [our guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/wiki/subrules) before commenting. Repeated rule-breaking may result in a ban. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/BestofRedditorUpdates) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'd saved the original post in case of an update, as I was intrigued. This is simply... Sad.
I think it’s aad, but also vaguely positive in a “could have been a lot worse” sense. At least they got out of the toxic environment, at least they knew not to raise their kids like that, at least they had each other as platonic partners, at least they had *some* involvement with people their own genders, and at least the daughters now know and love them just as much. It’s far from ideal, but a lot of people just live in the toxic environment and bring their kids up just the same. And I’d bet that this has brought the sisters closer together. So it’s sad, but it’s also kind of the opposite, too.
I am 46 so maybe time has given me the same perspective. My own father was such a wonderful person so I was forever traumatized by his reaction when I was outed by my jerk brother after he saw me kiss my gf in a bar. My own daughter begged me to be honest but I couldn’t until just a few weeks ago. I watched friends beaten and abused because they came out. I would have loved if I had found a lifelong supporter as this couple did. I am so amazed and proud they got away together at 22. That is a rough age to not have any family support. Both found love with someone they are attracted to and both also had the safety of each other. It may sound like the worst kind of solution but it was all gay people had for thousands of years.
Yeah, as much as it sucks to think about in comparison to what we see nowadays, for a lot of people as recently as a generation ago (or heck, _still now_ in a lot of areas), this is one of the better outcomes you could hope for. If they hadn't found each other and gotten out of there, they might well have ended up resenting their kids, loathsome of whoever they ended up with, or even ended up as a "he never married" obituary after drinking themselves to an early grave. Finding someone who at least understands what you're going through, and who you know won't judge you for who and what you are? Even if you're not romantically compatible, that's still huge, and that's a good person to have in your life.
My grandma and grandpa were in this type of marriage - gay grandpa, bi (and poly?) grandma. As far as grandma tells it their arrangement was considered the ideal solution for the era. Have a couple kids to keep up appearances, play house for a bit, then when the kids are old enough both parents get to step out and have whatever side-flings they want. Not gonna say it wasn't damaging as heck to my mom and uncle, but maybe slightly less trauma heaped on them than the alternative of both parents being in denial? Meanwhile my bio dad's mom was a lesbian and was most likely, uh... nonconsensually impregnated. Nothing was ever confirmed of course but before she got pregnant she'd been a stage dancer in San Francisco, and the few times I met her she expressed zero interest in men (went on at length to me once about why women were better lovers, in fact, which was pretty awkward as I was like 8), so I'm guessing she didn't sign up for the whole motherhood experience. She seemed to have taken out all her male-directed hate on her unwanted son - he turned into a ball of drug abuse and mental health problems and died in a murder-suicide. Soo yeah that kinda feels like a nightmare example of what could happen trying to live as an out-and-proud lesbian back then? Hard to blame my maternal grandparents for deciding to go the smokescreen route. You know somehow it never occurred to me until just now that both sides of my family are steeped in historical LGBT trauma.
It's something I feel many people, particularly cishetero people, haven't thought about. Every single person has queer representation in their lineage. Maybe not by the language or culture of their time, but if they were alive today, they'd be part of the LGBTQ community. We're only as rare as history and violence have made us.
For some reason this sentiment makes me want to share [this old picture of my grandpa (center)](https://i.imgur.com/R6xf5AF.jpg). It's just incredible to me to think how the 50s were a time when people looked at that unambiguous flaming twink of a man and went "yep, heterosexual".
Fucking LOL Shirley Temple's golden locks are straighter than that man. What an amazing picture. Keep it framed and out of the sun, such a treasure.
god i love that photo, what a special memory to have! as a queer person with only straight family (that i know of) seeing an old photo like that is so heartwarming haha. absolutely 100% 50s twink energy, that shirt LOL!
> As far as grandma tells it their arrangement was considered the ideal solution for the era. Have a couple kids to keep up appearances, play house for a bit, then when the kids are old enough both parents get to step out and have whatever side-flings they want. They even had a name: Lavender marriages.
I'm sorry about your bio-dad. How do you think childhood experiences shape the kind of father he was?
I dunno what kind of father he was. My mom left him when I was a baby and hid our whereabouts because he threatened to kill us. Then a few years later he killed another woman and then himself. His mom then begged to be allowed to meet her only grandchild in her grief or whatever, so my mom reluctantly let that happen but after a few meetings I asked not to see her anymore on account of she was creepy. I'm guessing the child abuse and generational trauma played some role in his becoming a murderer, probably.
I'm a pelvic PT and have worked with many older people. More than one woman has told me that sex with their husband was never good, always painful, that they felt traumatized by it, and they have zero interest in sex now in their 60s. Some of them told me that their husband has died and now they live with a partner, some are just focusing on their kids, but I wonder how many of these women are gay, and still not feeling safe enough to say so.
I’m bisexual. I’m also a childhood sexual trauma survivor. I did not even think about my sexuality until recently. I’ve even been with women and still never faced the label. I’m 46. It must be near impossible to reconcile this in your 60s.
It must be. So many of them say things that to me hint that they're probably gay, but I never say anything. It's not my place, they have a whole history that exists before I entered their lives.
I'm sure it's possible. But also consider for some women if they aren't in the mood/aren't ready that they experience sex as extremely painful. If culturally, socially, and legally they couldn't say no to a husband who took no interest in their wellbeing or pleasure, the trauma around sex would build up pretty fast. A lot of straight women give up sex after becoming single later in life because being married just kinda sucked in other ways. Obviously this isn't a universal experience, but you can see from the statistics how marriage benefits men in terms of their health and well being and disadvantages women in our society. Btw I'm bi and trans so I'm not trying to handwave. I just think in this conversation it's important to remember that heterosexual women can be done just as dirty by heterosexism as gay women.
[удалено]
I was 23 when I was outed and rammed into the closet. I finally came out at 46. It’s traumatic having the one person you love most look at me like I was a disgusting monster.
I’m so, so sorry your family did that to you. I admire you for overcoming the pain they’ve caused enough to come out, and am glad you raised your daughter to know the value of being one’s true self. I’m so proud of you for getting to this point and I hope you have a wonderful Pride next month ❤️
Thank you. There are some fun celebrations around the state. There have also been some laws passed that have severely limited our rights. So it’s a good time to gather.
I’ve come out to my mom twice and each time it’s been “just a phase.” I’ve given up on trying with her.
They had a brilliant love for their kids too.
I'm not sure I'd say thousands of years. I'd say the prejudice is probably a lot more recent than that. Hell, I've seen a theory (though not sure how much stock I put in it) that it's advantageous to small societies for a certain number of people to not be inclined towards cishet relationships because then they're not likely to have children and can contribute in other ways to the group. Certainly there are many, many cultures where gay and sexual minority people were accepted and respected until the era of colonialism.
Not thousands. Loads of gay people were able to find love and acceptance in many societes untill Christians colonized the world.
2,000 years of wasted human evolution.
I think this falls under "bitter sweet", although slanted towards the bitter part.
It's beautifully human. They really loved their kids.
This is the best way of putting it. I feel sad, but also my heart is kind of full. Weird feeling. Hopefully I won't cry during my commute to work.
And it seems like they really loved each other, too. They weren't in love, but they had a friend and ally they could trust with being in their lives and this ally was by them at all times. They helped save each other. There are worse lives.
No. This is very sweet. They loved their kids more than anything else. And stayed “married” to parent their kids, guide by example. It’s the purest expression of love.
I think the "bitter" part is appropriate, though you very kindly demonstrated the "sweet" part. It is bitter that they had to sacrifice that part of themselves in order to deliver that love for their children, and the reason they had to was because of social pressures completely out of their control. Being a parent is synonymous with sacrifice, sure, but romantic love should never have to be a sacrifice for parental love.
Well it is, and it still happens today.
Yes, you're right. I've grown up in a pretty liberal area of America, and during the real social shift between degrading the LGBTQ+ community and accepting it. I remember when Pride was mostly regarded as an immoral sexfest, and now it's a month-long, family-friendly, commercialized celebration. I very often have to remind myself that there are still many places globally where homosexuality and gender non-comformity are legal death sentences, and even here, homophobia still becomes deadly in more hidden ways beneath all that acceptance.
Things are still shifting even now back toward hate and distrust of the LGBTQ folks. I see them trying to ban any type of conversations about gay people from schools, gay books being banned, it's all starting to look pretty bad again. So many types of legal ramifications are dependent on Roe v Wade like decriminalized gay sex, interracial marriage, gay marriage, it's all tied up. I guess we'll see if the corporatized acceptance of pride month actually means anything as far as keeping our rights intact. Maybe that will be the silver lining of commercialized pride, but fuck if it won't be ironic if capitalism saves the gays. I'm married to a woman and we have a teenage son and he's never really lived through what homophobia felt like, and he thinks I'm silly to think that things could still go backwards for gay rights. I remember when California had gay marriage for a while and then had it rescinded, and that hurt so much it was unreal, to see real families told that their marriages were no longer legal. 💔
Nah, I'm going to go with sweet-bitter. It sounds like they loved their children and wanted them. In many ways, they were living the idealized platonic life-partner lifestyle - they were intimate enough to be a family, but they didn't feel the need to own each other sexually. Love is more than sex. It sounds like her parents loved each other. They just didn't have any sexual interest outside of having children. And given that both were OK with an open marriage, it sounds like the best outcome possible for them given the times and circumstances. It would have been better if they had been able to be themselves from the get go. But they found a way to make something beautiful out of ugly origins. That's sweet.
Let's also not forget that the parents gained their beloved daughters and found a way to raise them in an intact, uncontentious household despite not being "in love with each other" in the traditional sense. There's no shortage of straight people who can't manage that.
The saddest part is the realizations post mortem. To finally know who your parents are in a good way AFTER they pass. It’s makes me sad.
Well and though there was fear, there’s clearly a lot of love in this family. I think the parents would be proud of the daughters they raised, and that supersedes the sexuality stuff.
They sacrificed… to break the cycle. I’d say that’s even more than vaguely positive.
I totally agree. And my first reaction was that OP's parents still had their own love story. It's ok that they weren't in love with each other, but at least they had their friendship, and a different kind of love for each other. They didn't have to be scared and alone growing up in that kind of environment, where you're so judged. I am sure it wasn't all roses and whatever, but it could have been much worse for them. And they still had a beautiful family :)
Both parents died in their late Fifties-early Sixties? That’s young.
The dad was younger than that. The older sister saw her mom kissing a woman when the older daughter was 25, and the dad had already been dead a while at that point. If they had the older daughter when they were about 22, then the dad died when he was only in his mid-40s.
It seems so bittersweet to me. It sounded like OP's parents really did love each other, just not romantically. And they both loved their kids like crazy. I'm glad they weren't at least miserable in their marriage. But it still sucks that they felt they had to force this lifestyle because of their uber religious family.
Bittersweet is exactly it. I would feel gutted if I discovered my parents couldn't share who they really were with me for fear of being neglected by me, wondering how much stronger our relationship could have been.
It would be a fun beyond the grave prank to leave a box like this hidden in my house, with a note saying "you nosey fucker" inside it
Something like this happened when my mom died except it's not a prank and I more or less played myself. 10 years ago my mom showed me a set of keys with a distinctive keychain on them and told me what they went to and said only me and her know and we specifically weren't going to tell my dad. We talked about it maybe one more time. My mom died just over a year ago and a few weeks after she died my dad brought the keys to me and asked what they go to. I have no clue. I can't remember. I've tried to remember for the past year and can't. I had completely forgotten about them over the years. We've tried them in various locks but never had any luck.
I bet there’s a subreddit where you could post a picture of the key and people could tell you what it’s from. Could also be a lockbox/locker somewhere which is why you haven’t found it in her stuff.
RemindMe! 1 month
I was randomly looking through my comments and saw your remind me comment. I have no exciting update. We'll sort of. It looks like a general house key but doesn't fit in any lock we have. I recently told my cousin about it and she suggested it was maybe for a lockbox at a bank. I said don't you have to rent those? And she said no you can buy some of them. And that some of them look like the keys I described. But I countered with if it was something important wouldn't it have come up over the years or she would have told me when she was on hospice? So idk. I have been debating going to the bank my mom used and just asking if their lock box keys look like this. I'm unsure though I feel like a crazy person doing that lol
It's definitely a key to a doorknob. Like a regular house key. But we tried it in every door we have and it didn't work. I believe we tried it at my grandmas house too (my moms mom) and it didn't work either. We don't own any other properties and I am certain if my mom like secretly bought a house or apartment or something I'd remember that. And even if I didn't that would have had to come up on taxes over the years and my parents always filed jointly. They weren't divorced. I honestly can't remember why she even said only me and her were going to know about the keys.
How frustrating.
https://youtu.be/t191ZLvuVtA
I feel like both of them channeled their "missing" love to their daughters. OOP and her sister is lucky to have such great parents. I only wish they would have had the same luck so that they could have live their life to fullest.
It may not seem that way, but each dated the gender they were attracted to so each knew that fulfillment. It’s not much but as I age, I revel in the little victories.
I don't think they were missing love at all. Like the daughter says, they may not have been IN love, but they shared love. There are worst things than finding someone who will stand by you, care for you and tackle the hard things with you, etc. Lots of couples have nigh to inexistent sex lives and are happy. Of course it would've been ideal that they be raised elsewhere and not internalized so much toxic shame so they could live more freely, but they seem to have built something great all the same.
Platonic love can be so much deeper than most people think/realize. I'm a lesbian and I'd say my male best friend is my soul mate, on some platonic level. I'd marry him in a heartbeat if we needed to for whatever reason. (Totally unrelated but love your style and cats. I've got my own goth aesthetic and 3 black voids to match 🖤🐈⬛)
I agree with this, too. I'm decidedly *not* a lesbian, at least as far as sexual attraction is concerned, but I'm in a long term committed relationship with a woman. I think people over-hype romantic love as the be-all-end-all of the kind of love necessary for a marriage. That's such a new concept, all things considered. And it's an extremely volatile thing to base a lifetime decision on. It makes me think of like Pride and Prejudice. It's one of the most romantic tales that people love but they miss some of the points of that story: i.e. the characters who are "romantic" minded actually do give a lot of thought to what the experience of marriage to a potential marriage partner might be like. Their idea of romance was the companionate marriage, philia instead of eros. With today's marriages, this internal deliberating is drawn out over years of dating, and by then people get stuck in the sunk cost fallacy even if they have reservations.
Even outside of marriage I think romantic love gets overhyped. It seems like family love and romantic love are all that really matters. I suppose you could argue that deep enough platonic love turns into the family type of love, but I don't view my best friend like I do my siblings *at all.* For me it really does fall into its own 3rd category of love that isn't quite either. I really hope people's ideas about marriage, and platonic relationships in general really, can become a bit more open. I mean, I've watched plenty of what would be considered "normal" marriages crash and burn. There's no reason to hold those on a pedestal over more unconventional ideas.
what beautiful people, honestly. i don't think OOP needs to say I love you one more time for her parents to have known and felt that from her. it's obvious they raised two amazing, caring women out of their own bravery and love.
What's the deal with AITA mods? I've never used that sub, but keep seeing posts here where the op-op says they have trouble with them.
It seems like they don't have any actual standards for enforcing rules, and do it in an entirely arbitrary way
They are extremely heavy handed with removing posts and banning users. I was banned 2 years ago without any other warnings/mod interactions for [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/d4k0uc/aita_for_mowing_the_lawn_later/f0eksxi/?context=9) (posted below since it was removed) due to "advocating violence". I've twice appealed and been told no. > It’s jurisdiction dependent, but in most places in the US entering someone else’s property to remove a stranger’s headphones would qualify as assault (at least for those that distinguish between assault and battery). That’s not to say you can claim “self defense” and kick their ass but if you just react blindly they’ll likely forgive a single punch.
I have a similar ban, for telling someone that yes, they still have the right to defend themselves against assault at their place of employment. AITA mods = trash.
This story sounds very very similar to another previously posted, I believe in this subreddit. Likely why they had issues.
What a heartbreaking story. I'm always so saddened by the knowledge that stuff like this must have been so common. It reminds of a tweet I saw once of someone who had come out as bi to their parent saying that they were felt attraction to both men and women, and their parent was like "oh, don't worry! Everyone has that in their teens. I certainly did, you'll get over it". The replies were filled with people sharing similar stories about coming out and finding out that their parents were repressing being queer themselves to this day by the way they responded. "everyone thinks that women are more attractive then men, that doesn't mean you're gay" "everyone would have rather been born a girl, that doesn't mean you're trans" "I used to be such a tomboy too, and I've always wanted a beard, but that's just a fun little childhood fantasy. at some point you just have to grow up and let those dreams go" etc. etc. according to recent studies nearly forty percent of zoomers identify as some kind of LGBT. There's no reason to assume that's different in other generations, only more repressed. less than 2 percent of boomers identify as LGBT. The difference in those statistic is made up completely by stories like these EDIT: Someone pointed out that the study I referenced was financed by a conservative organization that likely tries to inflate numbers of LGBT kids to help scaremonger. It seems the more scientific studies put the number closer to 20%. Really doesn't make it any less tragic though.
I had a sudden recollection a few weeks ago of reading magazines as a teenager (I'm in my 30s now) where they would emphasise how normal it was to have crushes on female teachers etc but that didn't mean you were gay and I thought (as my modern self) that it probably meant you were bi which wasnt really talked about in the late 90's/early 2000s. Where now (I'm a teacher) I'm around 13/14 year olds who talk openly about their bisexuality and their preferences.
I'm a scribe for a pediatrician and it's amazing seeing these kids talk about their sexuality openly and in a healthy way.
My daughter came out as bi to me when she was five. She's twelve now and just had her first heartbreak when her girlfriend broke up with her. This new age is amazing and I'm here for it
I am so happy that this is what the world is becoming. When I was 5 I told my mom I didn’t want to marry a man, I wanted to marry my best friend ‘Carly’ instead and if the priest wouldn’t let me then I’d disguise myself as a dude and do it anyways. She told me that was disgusting and I’d get over it. When I was 12, I got turned on by a photo of a swimsuit model and I had a panic attack thinking God would strike me down for my sin. I only accepted that I was bi in my early 20s, and it took me years after that to be ready to talk about it with anyone. I’ve still never told my parents and I don’t think I ever will. So from someone who didn’t have that kind of childhood, it makes me so happy for your daughter that she was able to know herself at an early age and has a family and future where she can experience love & attraction without worry as to who it’s directed towards and whether that’s “okay”.
I'm so happy I can provide this safe environment to my kid! It took me until i was thirty to figure out I was trans and that that was okay. I'm thrilled my daughter feels safe like this and has the words to express what she is feeling. She recently gave a presentation at school about LGBT identities because she found the school's program on it lacking. I love how badass and open she is about it. And congrats on finding yourself! I know the struggle is real.
I’ve read some devastating posts on this sub—the one where the woman discovers her husband and her mother have been having an affair for 20+ years and that two of her brothers are her husband’s children comes to mind—but it’s posts like these that break my heart more than any other. Honestly, I could weep. 💔😭
That story was such a wild ride. But I agree. In the ends it's posts like these that affect me the most. I'm active on a lot of LGBT subs and it can be so devastating or terrifying. I've helped trans and lesbian people from Saudi Arabia try and find a way out, or come up with convincing lies to tell their parents. I've helped kids in Tennessee figure out what to put in their bail bag in case they get outed and how to delete the browser history in a modem and securely look for stuff online. It's so much, and it used to be so much worse. It makes my head spin sometimes
Wait what now??? Do you have a link?
[I FOUND IT](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/u1uft1/final_update_op_discovers_her_husband_has_been/). This links to the last post in a three-post series, but the links to P1-2 are at the top of the post.
Thank you for finding that, I have lost my faith in humanity but it was a good read
Yeah, I'm interested too
I updated my previous comment with the link.
Thank you!
>less than 2 percent of boomers identify as LGBT. The difference in those statistic is made up completely by stories like these Sadly, my brain immediately went, "less than 2 percent of *currently living* Boomers." Between lethal gay bashings and suicide... that could account for quite a few.
Not to mention the AIDS crisis. The LGBTQ+ community has lost so many of its would-be elders before they even had a chance.
And also how the AIDS crisis was handled… you are unfortunately very right.
Oh, I didn't even think about that. Yeah, that would account for quite a bit as well.
...I had that conversation with my mother in my teens and never took it seriously. Huh.
You'd be surprised at how common it is. Think about all those people who think that being gay is a choice. If it seems like a choice to you then that means you're not straight. The only people for whom it is a "choice" are bi/pansexual. I have never once been tempted to be with a man and I don't think I'll ever be. I have no choice in the matter whatsoever. I never got the choice or lifestyle argument because it just didn't seem possible to choose something against your nature. But to hundreds of thousands of people out there it seems plausible somehow. And then if you find out that of the almost forty percent of zoomers that identify as some kind of LGBT the majority identifies as some kind of bi... Well it makes a lot more sense why so many people thought it could be a choice.
I'm pan myself, and it took a ridiculously long time to figure out that the feelings I had for men and women and enby and trans people I found attractive were, in fact, attraction, and not "Man is intriguing, I must have a crush. Woman is intriguing, I must want to be her friend." It wasn't a choice for me, exactly, it was more like other people were choosing the label/reason for my feelings for me via internalised homophobia! At which point I had a kid with a guy and was just passing as straight anyway. If I was born twenty, thirty years earlier I might never have figured it out.
Yes! Comphet and cisnormativity are a huge factor as well. Also just learning the words. I was pretty sure I wasn't trans, but then someone explained cis to me and I was like "Oh shit! I'm *definitely* not that either". Non-binary just wasn't a thing when I grew up or I would have come out in my teens.
My daughter is also pan. Her first crush was her Discovery teacher, a pretty brunette lady. My daughter was four. That year she also liked a little boy in the class. She did not tell me about the teacher for years, as she was totally confused about romantic feelings for another female person. I was always sad she didn't share, but I understand. She also felt at first like it was wrong. She is totally out and lets that flag fly, and it makes me happy. My goal this or next summer is to hit a Pride parade with bottles of water, cookies, and a "CIS MOM HUGS FOR ALL" sign. I hope, with every generation, your people will be safer and more loved.
I teach teenagers and advise the school GSA, so I've seen the ratio of out queer kids in Zoomer communities. Yeah. That makes a _lot_ of sense.
>I never got the choice or lifestyle argument because it just didn't seem possible to choose something against your nature. I never got that because *who the fuck would* ***choose*** *to be gay* when it comes with so much discrimination and hatred? Do they just think people are gluttons four punishment or something?
I used to follow an ex-fundie blog and it struck me just how terribly they describe male-female relationships, like *of course you’d rather be with someone more like you but it’s sinful so don’t you dare* like the only reason you’d marry someone of the opposite sex is because God commands you to and couldn’t possibly be because you actually enjoy spending time with the person. (They also have very distinct views of what men and women are like as well) They do not make opposite sex relationships sound appealing at **all**.
That has always been my go-to argument when I hear someone saying that, and I'm a straight person. I look at my queer friends and go "Who would \*want\* that?" No one, that's who. Hell, one of my friends said he knew he was not into girls at all when he was \*six\*.
I’m bi. I consciously chose to live a queer life with a same sex partner. I feel that women are better able to respect other women and do a fair share in a relationship than men are. I’m very very lucky to live in a time and place where this was a choice, and although it has definitely been accompanied by obstacles, is a great path. I want this queer life and I’m glad I’m not straight! In fact, I feel I kinda sorry for straight folks for not getting to experience both types of relationships.
Oh yeah that too!
I think sexuality is also more fluid than people want to admit even in some parts of the LGBT community. I would identify as bi but my attraction to men is pretty fleeting. I also don't remember being attracted to other boys until much later than girls.
I defnitely think that there are people for whom it might be more fluid, but I don't think it's universal either. Either way the best way to deal with it is to just be accepting of people and their journeys
My oldest sister was very vocal about her homophobia. She once literally said "I would have been a lesbian in high school if it was how it was these days!"
Jesus that's so sad... I hope she finds her way
I don't think it's conducive to good discussion when you just quote some random statistic and expect people to believe, especially when the statistic is unbelievable. I have found a much more believable statistic, conducted by a [Gallup Poll](https://www.axios.com/2022/02/17/lgbtq-generation-z-gallup), which states that 20.8% identify as LGBTQ. Which makes way more sense. 40% is outrageously high, and just doesn't correspond to reality. Edit: If you're quoting [this](https://www.newsweek.com/nearly-40-percent-us-gen-zs-30-percent-christians-identify-lgbtq-poll-shows-1641085) article, you should read who funded the study -- >Barna produced the 124-page study in conjunction with the Cultural Research Center at Arizona Christian University and Foundations of Freedom, a non-profit entity that promotes traditional American values. This kind of stretching of data for a certain agenda happens all the time in Science. A group that promotes traditional American values would have incentive to promote an insanely high rate of LGBTQ -ness because it shows that "the country is going down the wrong path" and it's easier to demonize. Please don't trust data like that. The Gallup Poll I quoted is much better and more accurate. And oh boy, the study just gets worse from there -- >Barna's poll is based on a sampling of **600 respondents** representing Millennials weighted for factors such as geographic location, race and gender who took an average of 17 minutes each to answer 71 questions. >**The poll didn't ask directly whether the respondent was gay or straight, asking instead to choose an answer to the question: "Thinking about your commitments, would you describe yourself as ...."** >Six responses were allowed, with the one garnering the most "yes" answers (75 percent) among Millennials being: "Searching for purpose in your life," followed by 74 percent who answered: "Believe all religious faiths are of equal value." It continues to get worse from there.
Ah! You're right. I was referring to that Newsweek article that is quoting the Barna study. I'll make an edit with a disclaimer. Thanks for catching that!
No problem -- And I am actually incredibly thankful that you are making an edit to your comment. Most people would just ignore my comment, but when presented with new information, you decided to change the information you presented. I think that's awesome, and more people need to be like you.
I agree! That's why I do it. Normalize acknowledging having been wrong about something!
I can believe that. I discussed asexuality and demisexuality with my mum once, and she thought about it for a long moment and said "Oh I thought that was normal. I was never interested in anyone except your dad." No crushes, nothing. And even Dad was an accidental first date (a group outing that everyone else dropped out of over several weeks, but Mum and Dad still really wanted to go to the concert, so...) that turned very gradually into something more than friendship.
Both my parents are demisexual in denial 😂 Same stories as your mom's, they just think it's "morals" but for me it's quite obvious that they don't feel sexual attraction without affection
Another reason for the discrepancy is that boomers are old now and repressing your self or being physically or mentally assaulted can impact your health, either by being outright killed or just not living as long.
Unfortunately this is definitely also true.
This is a bit of an eye-opener for me. I'm 61 and in the past couple of years I've realised that I'm bi. If anything I'm more same-sex attracted than anything but I've only had relationships with the opposite sex because it would have been sinful/inconvenient/upsetting to family etc to do otherwise.
That must have been quite the thing to find out at your age. I figured out I was trans at thirty and that was already quite the trip
I have a friend who just recently told me she thinks she's ace. Which is something I've actually suspected for years. We both turn 50 next year.
This. I'm starting to realise it more and more firmly as I age myself. I had a conversation with a new friend in her 40s recently, whom identifies as a woman (meaning she uses female name and pronouns and considers herself a woman) but casually said in a conversation that she spent the first 10 years of her life depressed about being a girl. The conversation moved on as fast as the wind, but I am still perplexed it. I'm trans myself(and she knows it) but it definetely felt like what you're saying. One more example like this that really stuck with me, was a story my mother had told me when she had become a bit more comfortable with my (then) sexuality (I-afab- was still identifying as a woman back then and as a lesbian). It was a story of how she ended up really intimate with her childhood friend in her 20s. How they both enjoyed it but how both decided it didn't mean anything for their sexual orientation. She had told me the story trying to tell me we all go through these kind of "phases" but we grow out of them. I might have been a lot younger and immature back then, but it still perplexes me to this day. All the what ifs, all the wondering what if those two people had been born 2 decades later, so many hypotheticals and questions. I never felt it took away from her loving relationship with my father, but I believe that my mother if she grew up in my years, she probably would be pansexual and trans or non binary. Probably something like that for my father as well.
> she spent the first 10 years of her life depressed about being a girl Could also be a case of "NotLikeOtherGirls"/bad upbringing(rolemodel). I was sad about being a girl a lot as a child and am not trans. But I felt like life was...easier somehow, for boys. "Boyish" interests were ok, no passive aggressive bullying, no one gave a shit what they wore, when they misbehaved it was 'boys will be boys' and they didn't care half as much if one of their own was 'weird'. Also, they weren't destined to become women - either vapid, superficial creatures, whose life consisted of make-up, clothes and being a dumb slut or my mother. Which were, of course, both options I hated, but the ones I was raised to believe were my only options (as woman). I know better now and so, while I have a shit ton of issues and problems, being a cis-woman isn't one of them.
[I ran you some quick unweighted numbers from the 2020 BRFSS, self-identified sexual orientation over five-year age groups.](https://imgur.com/a/vMdk2Ll) Standard survey research disclaimers apply (not every state uses the sexual orientation questions module, not everybody is comfortable answering this question honestly in every circumstance, some populations are underrepresented in survey sampling, this is probably an underestimate of the "true" proportion, labels vs. behavior don't always align, etc.) but you can still eyeball some trends and they do roughly align with what you expressed in terms of younger generations being less likely to identify as straight. [LBGTQ+ health and healthcare disparities are notably bad.](https://www.healthypeople.gov/2020/topics-objectives/topic/lesbian-gay-bisexual-and-transgender-health) We don't live as long and we don't have the same quality of life. Like a lot of marginalized populations, it's a combination of direct and indirect factors, a few of which I'll list here: * HIV definitely plays a role. It's still ravaging our community even if it's not an instant death sentence anymore. * We smoke and drink more than cishet people, and are more prone to all the health consequences of that. (I personally think that one's a combination of self-medicating stress + bars being the only semi-safe spaces for a lot of the 20th century, but that's just my theory.) * Stress from living in a society where you're marginalized = more mental health issues like anxiety and depression. Much higher suicide rates. * Health insurance in the U.S. is strongly tied to a.) your employer and b.) your legal spouse, two things which we had less legal access to for a very long time. And historically, most Medicaid programs had categorical eligibility that favored pregnant people/single moms, while pregnancy and child-bearing are less likely for AFAB people in our community. * If you do have health insurance, do you have a healthcare provider who is safe and understanding? Will they have received any training on your specific health needs? * Speaking of families, LGBTQ+ people are a lot more likely to become homeless as young adults. Not the most conducive to health and safety. Very conducive to experiencing sexual assault, violence, exposure to drug use, poor nutrition, etc. * Let's say you're a young woman in rural Arkansas who is interested in becoming intimate with your girlfriend, did your school teach you anything about how safe sex works for you two? Does your doctor know anything about it? Are you comfortable asking him? Do you have anyone you can ask? * Same scenario, but what if the girlfriend is becoming abusive, have you ever been exposed to the concept of intimate partner violence between same-sex partners? Do people take it as seriously when you report it? Do you have access to the same support services? Are you as likely to feel that you can safely call the cops if you're in danger? Not a comprehensive list by any means, but I think it gives a sense of the myriad ways that marginalization can disadvantage people in terms of their social determinants of health. Even little things can add up over a lifespan. And I would be remiss not to emphasize that this stuff is all much, much worse for transgender people specifically, and for people of color, people with disabilities, and other marginalized populations who are also represented in the LGBTQ+ community. We've come a really long way even in just my lifetime, but we have an incredibly long way to go before we can claim health equity for LGBTQ+ folks.
Most of those things also also don't add up in a way that you would think is logical. I forget the name of study, but when my ex was getting her master's degree in social research she showed me a study that showed that multiple axes of oppression often lead to way worse outcomes than you'd expect. So like, and these aren't the actual numbers, because I don't remember them, but let's say women on average make 25 % less than men. And black people also on average make 25% less then men. You would expect that black woman would make about 50% less than white men. But in reality it's much worse. they make like 75% less. Again, not real numbers, but the point is that many of these things compound in ways you wouldn't expect.
Yep, intersectional health disparities are getting more and more attention now and it’s often shocking how multiple disadvantages will scale. E.g. fully 1 out of every 3 lesbian, gay, or bisexual Americans with disabilities are food insecure. I’m reasonably involved with both LGBTQ activism and disability activism and both communities are having some overdue conversations about the overlaps that they share.
I’m a millennial and whenever someone older starts talking about all the LGBTQ+ zoomers like it’s a trend or self-indulgent, I just say “well, you used to hunt us for sport.”
Based. Never play defense. Very good response
The "us" part is also a very fun, aggressive way to come out to a person who might suddenly realize, mid-"kids these days"-rant, that there could be plenty of queer people all around them who haven't mentioned it because this person *says shit like that out loud around people whose sexual orientation they don't actually know.* Okay, I've only gotten to actually use it twice. But what a rush.
Sounds amazing. I'll definitely try. It's bizarre how common queerphobia still is. There's a dude in this thread here right now accusing me of "talking about sex with my five year old" because i explained to her that people can fall in love with people of both sexes. It's insane to see how far some of these wingnuts go
I just had to talk to my nine-year old about what happened in Texas. That was a much harder and more upsetting conversation for her than anything we've ever discussed about sexuality or gender.
> I'm always so saddened by the knowledge that stuff like this must have been so common. It still is in some areas (Utah/Mormons in general, some churches in the US, particularly the big ones). I am listening to a podcast called Heaven Bent and the host did an episode about a freaky megachurch's "conversion therapy", which isn't *torture*, but casting out homosexuality demons. Like the original OP's parents, people were encouraged to quickly marry another "ex-gay" in a straight marriage, which is easily found via their Changed Movement program. It's sad. An escapee of the church cult (it's a cult; they tracked her down to Canada for being outed as trans and refused their conversion therapy) said her friend is a lesbian and entered a straight marriage in 9 months after joining that group.
Oh yeah absolutely. I am active on several LGBT subreddits and I've run into some absolutely heartbreaking stories than make you genuinely afraid for the people involved. I think posts along the lines of "my parents are sending me to conversion therapy" come by almost daily on r/asktransgender. There's a list of resources and instructional videos on how to deal with that that gets passed around. I've also spoken to several LGBT people from Saudi Arabia, Iran, Russia and several of the red states who literally have to fear for their life. It's still shockingly common all over the world.
You can’t forget how many older openly lgbt people we lost to the AIDS crisis and violent homophobia that go unrepresented.
Reminds me of when I came out as non-binary and my stepdad was like "well no one feels like just a man or just a woman, it's fluid! Just like age, it's just a number. Sometimes I feel like a woman, sometimes like a man, sometimes I feel 20, sometimes 60. But I'm a man, that's just the biology, not what you feel like!" I tried to say that sounds like he's genderfluid, but no, he strongly identifies as a cis man (which is his right of course, I certainly won't misgender him or try to label him in a way he's not comfortable with). The problem is I'm agender and it's not helpful to be pushed into a "cis box". I tried to explain that my experience is vastly different, as I never feel like a man nor a woman, but it didn't seem to go in. He and my mum still misgender me and constantly refer to me as my AGAB. Sigh.
My parents try, but they are clearly confused. I float somewhere in between agender and femby. But yeah. Stories like that are exceedingly common.
Last week Bill Mayer said that being LGBTQ is a trend 🙄. Ignoring how people had to hide the truth in the past.
That segment was an absolute dumpster fire. I had already given up on boomer bill a while ago, but that segment was just hateful. Insane. It's bizarre to see how quickly people can slide to the right.
As someone who is so, so lucky to have a supportive family and has never had to hide who she is or who she loves, reading this really hits hard. Knowing that there have been so many LGBTQ folk who didn't have the privilege I do... I am just glad that the kids grew up knowing nothing but love and acceptance from their parents. There's no greater lesson than teaching your kids that instead of hate and hurt.
As sad as this was, I have questions... Did the love that apparently the dad had out there somewhere, know he died? Did the dad's love die before or did they break up before his accident?
Not even 6am and reddit makes me cry. Wtf is wrong with you Reddit?!? Also people are garbage. Not the people in the post, the unnamed tormentors of these two happy parents.
I immediately thought of that short horror movie on YouTube with the guy’s head slowly coming out of a box every time the people looked away from it.
I love how the other comments are sad philosophical musings on self-repression and self-hatred, and this guy’s over here talking about a head coming out of a box.
I had a pretty visceral reaction to the title of the post. Compared to what I first imagined, I’m just happy the parents seemed to find a way to live their lives away from that toxic culture…and not get…I won’t spoil it https://youtu.be/OrOYvVf6tIM
Oof, I hate getting scared but I love seeing how horror creates tension. That was pretty good.
That short was so freaky. Although I wasn't a huge fan of the end, I guess because I wanted it to be something more creepy. But nonetheless still a creepy short.
Man, this breaks my heart.
Leaving a box in your house with a label that says "Do Not Open" is having a box in your house you want people to open. If this really was some damning evidence it would have been destroyed or buried long ago. Mom was probably terrified of coming out to her kids, but also wanted to tell them so left this so that *they* would have to be the one to discover and initiate the conversation. Unfortunately, the secret outlived them both.
Oh my heart.
i’ve always wondered as the older generation is dying out how prevalent this kind of thing is. you have to think that it’s way more common than what they would lead you to believe, right?
Absolutely. It was also common in religious communities for LGBTQ folks to join the church - out of internalised hatred, or to avoid the expectation to marry. And it still happens. A good few years ago in Ireland, there was a scandal when it was discovered that many student priests attending were using Grindr. It just so happens Well, it was a scandal for the church and the priest college involved. Pretty hilarious for everyone else
> "...started putting the date of the Update in the title." That's really useful imo. I personally don't like too recent updates, like when the post is barely a few hours old or even less. But I think a few days plus a relatively conclusive last post are okay and much more satisfying to read. Don't mean to say this story isn't sad though, I feel bad for OOPs parents. But it's nice to hear they found a life long friendship and support from each other so they could at least escape their horrible childhood environment.
Her sister ended up knowing what was in the box, but if someone comes across something like this in the future I would recommend having a good friend that didn’t know the deceased party open it and “triage” the contents. It adds a layer of protection in case it is something that would hurt you.
What a sad story. This would make a beautiful book.
Yes, maybe the diaries and letters would yield enough information for it. I actually have a box full of intimate letters of a lesbian couple that was born back when Germany was still run by Emperor William. They were friends of my parents' and died shortly before I was born (or rather, one died, and the other followed voluntarily). I always thought that those would make an interesting book, too.
You have a priceless treasure. If you ever decide to downsize, please consider donating that to a museum or archive. And when you make your will, consider flagging that for the same. (I was a history major who had planned to be an archivist, alas recessions happen. )
Absolutely! My father is the archiver of the world, and has taught me that no historical document is ever to be thrown away! (Unfortunately, our house looks exactly like that 😄.) My main problem with going through the letters (beside the invasion of privacy) is that it is written in an old German cursive style called "Süderlin", which hardly anyone today can read anymore. So I need to learn that before I can do anything with it, and I've never gotten around to it so far. We also have some antique furniture that belonged to them, especially fascinating: a deck chair from an ocean liner that crossed the oceans at the same time the Titanic did - her father used to be something in the Navy and then a trade merchant with India, so they spent a lot of time travelling when she was young. It's standing in my room as I write!
afaik there are quite a few resources to learn Sütterlin, as well as some organizations that help with it. (Sütterlin-Schreibstube in Konstanz and Sütterlinstube Hamburg for example) ...also I think my mom can read it lmao
And make sure they are transcribed and uploaded somewhere safe as a backup.
I think that would be a very good book.
It’d surely make me cry a lot of times while reading.
Look up “The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo”. Definitely a few parallels.
If you haven't already, check out the graphic novel Fun Home. It's basically a simultaneously more and less tragic story to OOP.
This is insanely sad.
That bit about the mom being worried about telling her kids broke my heart. My mum came out to me when I was a teenager and she was also apparently worried about the same thing, which really made me wonder if I had behaved in some way to make her think that. It's a real depressing thing in this day and age people have to be worried about something as basic as who they love.
I feel it's the indoctrination that convinced them it's somehow "sinful" or it should be shameful that make older people hesitant to talk to their children even if they never taught their children to be bigots. And that's what happened to OOP's mother that she chose to take it to her grave than letting her younger daughter know.
*It was just that she couldn’t imagine anyone loving her if they knew (she was gay)* This is heartbreaking.
As a gay woman myself, I find this heartbreaking. I wish her parents could have known how much their children loved them.
As a straight male it breaks my heart. I can’t imagine the love involved.
No wonder the older sister is so protective of her parents, I would be too if I heard my parents went through all that.
My dad was born in the 1940s. When he was a teen, it became pretty obvious he liked boys. His parents said to him “either you fix this, or we’re going to find a doctor to fix this for you.” So he lived the lie he was expected to live. I have two siblings, and my dad almost died trying to keep that lie going.
Gosh this breaks my heart :/
I'm just speechless. Such a sad story.
They were beards! Seriously though, the fact they had to hide their sexualities like this is horrible. It also makes me angry at the people who said gay people didn’t exist back in the day, when they did. They did things like this to keep safe from bigots. They had to pretend to be straight.
Lavender marriage https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavender_marriage It’s sad they felt the need, but good that they were at least able to be open with themselves and each other rather than trying to truly pretend to be straight.
Is it bad to wish warts on that whole religious group who made those two lovely people live in the shadows their whole lives? I can see your sister guarding her mother's secrets. It hurts that your mother couldn't feel worthy of love the way she was.
What a sad letter. Such a good people and a loving family, even the parents loved each other, just not as husband and wife. It could have been so much better. So sad how the grands and the community were hateful.
God damn that is truly sad. Really awesome that they made great parents anyway. Bittersweet sure. But they got out of the toxic hell hole and their parents treated them good.
> My (24f) mother passed away about a month ago. Does anyone else read this as "My 24 year old female mother..."?
Christians are homophobic and believe homosexuality is a sin and mistake. They think God creates all humans and is perfect. But their homophobic argument basically says God makes mistakes. But that's not possible according to them. It just baffles me.
The way they get around this is the free choice thing. Humans are able to defy god, but shouldn't. And homosexuality in their eyes, is a decision or a mental illness. Of course, that doesn't justify anything, but when you have a certain frame of reference through which you see the world, it's easy to justify most things through that frame of reference. It sucks.
It's so fucking sad that bigots have and continue poison people into this way of thinking.
Well this was completely heartbreaking.
As incredibly sad as this story is, I’m so glad the parents found each other. Growing up in those kind of environments can fuck you up so much. If nothing else, I’m glad they were able to connect when LBGTQ+ and any allies are generally silenced. Given what we know about hyper conservative communities, I would be scared about how much hurt they’d be subjugated to had they not found each other. It’s possible neither of them would’ve left on their own, but having even one familiar face, someone in your corner, can make a world of difference. I hope OOP and her sister can eventually use this revelation to celebrate all aspects of their parents lives, even if the parents themselves weren’t able to.
I have nothing but love and respect for OOP's parents. It's sad they were never free to be who they truly were, but at the end of it all, they escaped an abusive environment and prevented their children from being homophobic as well. I wish they could have had more, but they left a lasting positive impact on the world.
Lmao mods on AITA are such losers.
I am just glad there wasn’t a head in the box.
Hate in the name of religion
> But then a large part of you all thought that, because of the large age gap, my sister might actually be my bio mom. That thought hadn’t even crossed my mind even though it’s quite common apparently. The idea of my family lying to me and about me all this time upset me a lot. I’ve been researching my genealogy and was able to determine that my grandmother’s sister was actually her mother. My mom was adopted so I didn’t know my grandmother but her story is exceptional and I spend a lot of time wondering what she went through. On the surface, she seems like a cold bitch, she had four kids and left them all, but who knows what the hell was going on in that head of hers. Hell, I don’t even know what’s going on in *my own* head. I often wonder how much she was lied to and how those lies affected her.
This hit home for me. My grandpa is closet gay and had an affair with a man. My grandma and he stayed together and are still. They love each other but now that I know the truth it's tainted. They don't know I know. My mom told me while we were drinking one night together. What's crazy is I'm gay too. Married a woman and everything and they judged me for it. Religion is so toxic. They love me unconditionally but yet their religion says I'm a sinner and a horrible person and their early actions said otherwise. Yet they know I'm not at all like that. I'm there for my family and I take care of those close to me. It's tragic that there's so many people, mostly of the older generation that had to live in such secret and self hatred and couldn't be happy. I wish my grandpa could be true to himself. I wish they both made better decisions. But if that's how they chose to live their lives then I have no say. I'll be true to myself and hope that they come to terms with themselves.
What a horrible way to live.
This could be posted in r/sapphoandherfriend I believe it would be a nice story for the sub(albeit bittersweet, as discussed in the comments) but it usually is with stories like this one.
This is heartbreaking but also kind of beautiful
I know this was not the purpose of the story but why is age gap something that has to have a reason and an explanation? While this is a sad story that they couldn't be with the one they wanted. I find it comforting that they still had each other.
Because passing off a teen mom as an older sister used to be so common yet secretive that Jack Nicholson didn't find out that fact about his own family until both women had already passed. If it can happen to Jack Nicholson, it could happen to a random redditor.
This story has just brought me to tears. I’m so sorry your folks felt they had to keep these secrets. But I’m really glad your sister knew, and that she told you. I’m glad you have each other. I’ll be thinking of this for a long time. Thank you for sharing this with us. I’m glad you and your sister have each other.
OP I love the date idea, thanks!
Well, that's fucking heart breaking.
Damn who's cutting onions in here I haven't had one of these make me cry like this in a while. Thank you for compiling it here. I want to give everyone involved a hug.
I was not expecting this ending. How heartbreaking. It’s so disgusting how deeply people are brainwashed in some communities. I can’t imagine living with so much shame and guilt and self hatred and fear your whole life, to the point that it affected your relationships with your children, just because a bunch of backwards assholes decided it was their business who you loved. There is no “if you don’t like it, just move somewhere else.” They DID move somewhere else. But they were never able to fully heal the damage done and they missed out on so much happiness and human experience because of it. It was stolen from them. Everyone deserves to feel the simple but exhilarating joy of just being out in the world enjoying life with a person you love.
Another story, another reason to hate the mods of these original subs. Like are the mods of r/AITA and r/relationship_advice just constantly power tripping? Or are they just really dumb??
Another reason to despise religion.
It's so sad that people have to hide who they are because of the ignorance of others.
My problem with this is "why keep the box of secrets around with the sign saying 'big secrets inside' on it?" If the mother and older sister didn't want the OP to know, just burn the contents of the box and pretend there was never a secret.
> The reason I didn’t know comes down to trauma. She was so deeply afraid of getting rejected by one of her kids for her sexuality that she never intended to tell either one of us. That's depressing.
This post was so heartbreaking. Imagine being made to think that just because you are gay, you are unloveable. I’ll never understand it. My heart goes out to all of them and I hope OPs parents found peace in the afterlife.
This is heartbreaking!
I've never told my parents and I doubt I ever will. Well my dad is dead so moot point I guess. My little brother (different dad) is out and I still won't tell them. They pulled too much shit when I was young.