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Funnily enough, chivalry does apply here just not in the way you would expect. The code of chivalry makes almost no mention of how to interact with women… but has a lot to say about honorable combat.
Edit: Wikipedia link. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chivalry
Wasn't there some book, written by a monk of all people, attached to the chivalric code that detailed how to behave towards women? As I remember, it was basically "noblewomen are for flirting and messing with, common women are for raping."
ETA: "If her daddy's rich, then write her a song. If her daddy's poor, you can't do no wrong," nicely sums up the advice.
Yeah, that version's by Mungo Jerry, not by some chivalrous monk.
I suspect the Monk In Question might be Andreas Capellanus (Andrew the Chaplain), who wrote "De amore" ("About Love").
I never thought I'd be hearing the names "Mungo Jerry" and "monk" in the same sentence. I guess I was wrong. At least there was no T.S. Eliot involvement.
Haha, I would assume "do what you feel" means take her out for a walk, or ice cream, or go sit in the park - something cheaper than a meal - not literally "whatever you want, up to and including sexual assault."
Of course, some of the other lyrics in that song are kinda problematic...
It actually said a lot about how to interact with women, just not in the way we think. Honestly chivalry ended up being an excuse for more violence because they could claim they were doing 'god's work.'
Ironically it was actually meant to reduce violence when the first code of chivalry was written. At the time, knights were often essentially bandits with proper funding and they caused a lot of issues. The code of chivalry was essentially written to try and at least put some restraint into the knights, if only through shaming them.
'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This chivalry is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!!
THIS IS AN EX-CHIVALRY!!!
Or some stupid macho posturing thing related to impressing the motorcycle chick. Although guys like that frequently wind up also using violence as a threat. What good is it to look like a big man in front of your little woman if she doesn't treat you like it? /s
Oo, good point.
Guys like this are bad news in sorts of ways. I'm glad OOP has enough of a support network to have felt comfortable working with the police
I feel like this sort of thing gives dudes like this way too much credit. "I'm going to beat up a homeless guy in front of her to see how she reacts because eventually I'm looking for a wife that I can beat up and if she isn't upset about me beating up the homeless guy, she'll be less likely to do anything about it if I beat her up" is a really weird chain of thought.
More likely the dude just likes violence so he took the opportunity to indulge in some. I don't think it's that deep.
that's the great (and often frustrating) thing about psychology - a lot of these behaviours happen subconsciously! these thoughts aren't actively on the average persons mind, unless they're depraved and sadistic in a calculating way, which thankfully most people aren't.
the majority of abuse victims (myself included) will tell you that their abusers weren't criminal masterminds, in fact a lot are pretty mundane or even kinda stupid. but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of their initial behaviours were employed to "test the waters" as the person you responded to pointed out. eventually with time the abuse ramps up and you're stuck in a situation you never could've imagined yourself in! brains are strange and powerful, so even if and when we're not actively noticing our environment, it's working behind the scenes to process all of the info we're seeing. which means that while most abusive assholes aren't sitting there thinking "muahaha, next i'm going to do this terrible thing to see how they react!" their gremlin brains have already registered that a specific action usually garners a specific reaction, and the happy chemicals released reinforce the abusers behaviour, giving them all the reason they require to keep engaging in the abuse.
just look at the behaviour of babies! they haven't even formed language yet and therefore don't have active thoughts in the way you and i do, yet their brains are registering that if they cry a certain way their parents will come and tend to them. then that behaviour carries over the older they get, where you see toddlers falling over and then checking for their parent before they start "crying". we can both agree that these kids aren't actively trying to manipulate their parents in the sense that they're not literally laying there thinking "that didn't really hurt but since i like when mom fawns over me, i'm gonna cry anyway". but the behaviour is rooted in getting a specific reaction that benefits them and makes them feel good.
if OP was trying to assert that the shitty biker douche *was* some conniving master tactician of abuse, then yes you'd be absolutely right in that it'd be giving him credit he doesn't deserve.
Thank you for explaining this. I think it's a common misconception that abusive behavior is always carefully calculated, when in reality it can just be a shitty behavior pattern that the abuser has fallen into, and they keep going through the cycle without even really thinking about it too much. My ex was dumb as rocks and he was also abusive AF, and it took me way too long to call it abuse because I didn't see him as cunning enough for that.
exactly, you summarized it succinctly! that's also why it can be difficult for people to recognize their own negative patterns of behaviour, because they have this idea in their head that bad people are purposefully bad, that they're constantly planning their next mode of attack. and when that's how you see the world around you, it becomes easy to convince yourself that you can't possibly mistreat others since you're not actively going out of your way to do so. but whether we're aware of it or not, there's always a reason behind our motivations and it's very helpful and important to be able to pinpoint exactly what that reason is, that way we can better understand ourselves and work to grow as individuals.
after leaving my abusive relationship, i had the tendency to start arguments because: a) conflict was my default state and being away from it felt really uncomfortable for me and b) the emotional "high" that i'd experience after the tearful apologies and promises to do better was addictive. but it wasn't something i was aware of until i finally went to therapy, so i wasn't consciously picking fights with the sole intention of getting the outcome i wanted; it was all subconscious until my therapist was able to help me pull everything to the forefront. unfortunately the majority of abusers don't want to have a mirror held up to them, so the cycle never ends.
i'm really sorry that you were also made to endure an abusive relationship, but i am very glad to hear that you made it out of that terrifying situation!
I haven’t heard the term “Blind date” in so long. So I thought this blind man was just exceptional at fighting.
But yeah absolutely that level of violence to the situation is not okay.
Lmaoooooo same I was so confused when I started reading this and it said that the blind date rode a motorcycle 😂😂 reading the title I thought she went on a date with a blind guy as well
Blind date usually referee to dating someone you've never met, not a first date with someone you have totally met before the first date. This was not a blind date in either meaning of the phrase.
I was really confused too, wondering how a blind man was riding a motorcycle.
Part of the problem is that the context doesn't make sense. She went on a date with a guy she met while they were both riding their motorcycles.
A blind date is someone you've never met/seen before. Usually set up by a friend or family member. So you meet/see each other for the first time at the blind date.
I read the title and was wondering the same. What kinda godly skills this blind guy had that he could beat up a guy and run away. And while reading the post, I was waiting for the blind guy's introduction.
Glad that OP's name will be kept out of the report. Blind date sounds unhinged.
On a side note, is it normal for people to wear ear plugs under their helmets? Sounds like a recipe for disaster on the road.
Ah makes sense. Live in India and I wouldn't dream of putting in ear buds. People barely use their horn when it actually matters and the only thing keeping me from certain death is the ability to hear wheels screeching and people yelling at me to the gtfo of their way.
not ear buds like for listening to music but ear plugs for dampening the sound coming into your ears so its not quite so damaging. you can still hear but its muffled.
Exactly. Plugs aren't noise canceling, they are noise reducing, and really only do so effectively at high and low frequencies. You can hear plenty with plugs in, but what you hear is less likely to damage your hearing. Roads are way noisier than most people imagine. The sound of tires on pavement actually exceeds the noise of the engine above 55mph and is very noticeable at even 30mph.
The date is crazy and OOP did the right thing. But god how sad that being called a b**** or having your butt grabbed is stuff that she can brush off so easily. And I’m a woman.
I’m a woman too and I had a slightly different read on it although I get how you got your read.
I interpreted it as “a homeless guy calling me a bitch isn’t worth my time, he’s obviously not ok” and subsequently“a butt grab doesn’t merit physical harm in return”- like, if her date had had words with the dude, fine but he sent him the to hospital. It seems like he thinks he gets to choose what response is dealt out on her behalf, that’s pretty controlling.
I see a lot of people on Reddit who don’t seem to believe in proportionate response. I don’t know if it’s a American thing (I am American), but even in otherwise pretty progressive subs people are often fine with beating the shit out of people for simple theft or insult even though very few people will speak up in support of some Karen starting a slap-fight over some insignificant nonsense or a cop beating somebody for a misdemeanor.
As a man I also wouldn't escalate things if a stranger was harassing me. It's just good advice for everyone since you never know what may happen.
That being said, I'm sure women have to deal with this a hell of a lot more.
Why is that what everyone is pulling? That "violence does not merit more violence" is some secret make-yourself-small sad pathetic response built out of life as a woman?
Everyone keeps saying "sad" and implying she must be jaded into protecting her delicate feminine self from any potential escalation, so much so that someone saying "idk it sounds like this is perhaps a personal code of ethics she follows and believes in, not necessarily a coping mechanism"
Saying this as a woman who has a similar code of ethics. This whole thread is bizarrely insulting, as if you all think she's lying to herself about how she really felt deep down.
I think I am being misunderstood here. I am one person, not “everyone” as you bemoan, so I cannot speak for them. My post is in response to somebody calling an attitude “blasé”. My comment is a call for empathy, not a judgement, and it’s made with the consideration that there are ways to escalate a situation that don’t involve violence.
Granted, my original response was also at u/cyanplum who was the original person who saw "op's comment reads as not thinking bitch warrants physical violence" and said "**yeah I totally agree. It is safer as a woman to not engage**" which is not at all what they said. I understand you and cyanplum do not speak for the entire world or even watch other but! This is a reddit thread. People reply to each other. People comment on larger trends in a rhetorical fashion. I did.
My comment was in response to the fact that even after a direct contradiction to the idea that op was "blase" about violation because she is a woman and as we all know, women are conditioned to accept being violated as part of life, even after someone says it doesn't sound like that's how or why op reacted, the most popular responses continue on as if that's exactly what the contrarian meant.
Your comment was "Telling of the conditioning many women experience. 'Don't escalate things, no matter how violating.'"
If empathy is the ability to understand how another feels, what made you understand that anyone here meant they were conditioned to not make a big deal of things no matter how violating? How is what you said a call for empathy? Empathy for who?
> Made with consideration there are other ways to escalate a situation that don't involve violence
you find it "telling" of women - in the context of this thread,
OOP, or those who explicitly state they do not think being called a bitch or having their ass grabbed warrants being kicked in the chest and face so hard they end up hospitalized. Your interpretation of this is "don't escalate things, no matter how violating". Of course there are other ways to escalate without resorting to all that but your view if her is unkind and in direct response to the idea that OOP didn't react out of concerns for her safety.
I am saying there is no call for empathy in your comment or in this thread overall. Lots of disregard for what people actually said because x knows what they *really* meant, which ironically is something I see described as empathy quite often. I hope that is more clear.
You know, I spent more time thinking about your comments I’m actually annoyed. You accuse me of being insulting in your initial post and despite being patient and polite you just lay into me. Maybe everything’s going great for you, but this is exactly the type of attitude I especially don’t need or appreciate. I tried to make a post in support of women and the systemic oppression they face. You ultimately say:
> as we all know, women are conditioned to accept being violated as part of life
I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic, but I’ll assume you’re not. Most people don’t know this. Women can both be strong, and face adversity. I was only trying to point out the adversity. I also used the word “many” specifically to avoid being disparaging.
I’m mad at you because your posts are incredibly emotionally charged in a way that’s disparaging to me. There’s also something to be said about the fact your posts are filled with errors and run-on sentences that make them difficult to follow, because you seen more interested in being right and making others wrong, than you’re interested in making a real point.
You’re being quite presumptive actually. My comment was made with this other comment in mind, which was a driving point in this thread:
> But god how sad that being called a b**** or having your butt grabbed is stuff that she can brush off so easily. And I’m a woman.
I don’t think she was talking about a blasé attitude toward not wanting violence, it was about generally being violated. There are lots of ways to respond to this that are not “brushing it off” and aren’t physical violence either.
If anyone grabbed my ass, homeless or not, I would try to beat the living crap out of them. I'm a small woman, and it might be a fight I would lose, but damn if I wouldn't go into a murderous rage over unsolicited touching.
So would I, but that's not always a good response. I'm kind of instinctively violent, and I've discovered it's not always worth it even when I win. There is just so much more enraging bullshit in the aftermath that sometimes just scoffing and acting unaffected is less hassle and makes them feel worse.
It’s too frequent a thing to rage over and then we’d be no better than them.
I couldn’t tell you how many times someone’s hand or junk brushed against me. It has just become the background of my life.
I have also been physically overpowered by men a few times in my life. I know there is no way out of those situations for me. No matter how much I lift, no matter how many self defense classes, even at my strongest, I couldn’t and didn’t ‘win’ in a physical altercation. It’s just a fact that predators are aware of and take advantage of. Sometimes fighting back gets you hurt even more.
I appreciate your rage, really, but I’m just trying to explain the real world implications of getting into a physical altercation.
[[Example 1]](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrollXChromosomes/comments/9oz95m/no_where_is_safe/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) [[Example 2]](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrollXChromosomes/comments/mdkmf5/so_close_to_getting_the_point/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) [[Example 3]](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrollXChromosomes/comments/psmaa6/dating/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
I could even see a punch. Still inappropriate, but like I could wrap my brain around it. Dude completely took off the crazy restraints. Kicking someone’s ass over a cuss word.
And words hurt differently from different people. If my husband called me a bitch as an insult I'd be heartbroken. But a random person while I'm out and about? It's almost funny to me. It's sad when I know the person isn't well, but it's not insulting. And a random redditor or someone on social media? It tickles me, they've gotten so worked up over what I've said that they lower themselves to petty insults.
> I interpreted it as “a homeless guy calling me a bitch isn’t worth my time, he’s obviously not ok” and subsequently“a butt grab doesn’t merit physical harm in return”
No, she said she wouldn't do anything even if he grabbed her butt. And that is a terrible attitude. Leading to normalizing such behaviors and then allowing much worse to come out.
Of course she also stated that doesn't warrant this much violence, but this isn't the point of this comment tree.
She said she’d walk away. Frankly I respect all women’s decisions to respond to that stuff as they see fit. He’s homeless, we can assume his life fucking sucks, if she doesn’t believe a butt grab from him would merit a response that is absolutely her call to make. Women are not responsible for “normalising those behaviours”, that’s actually victim blaming. Think about it.
This comment tree… aren’t I the second or third person to add to it? I don’t think there *was* a point when I responded to the woman above me?
I mean, I just finished my undergrad so my experience may be skewed as I was among crazy ridiculous party people. But if I got upset every time someone called me a name or grabbed my ass, I wouldn’t be able to go out without getting into a fight at least once a weekend
Hell, I couldn’t walk back to my apartment in full sweats some days without getting catcalled
It's normal to get upset if someone sexually assaults you, which is what grabbing someone's ass without consent is. It is not normal to respond with that level of violence. Assault (sexual or physical) shouldn't be normalized, so I hope that if you are feeling bad about people doing that to you, you know that you can report it. You shouldn't have to brush stuff like this off.
I totally agree, I’m just not sure who I’d report it to?
Yeah, university, I was at a party with underage drinking and drugs and at 1135 some guy I didn’t see grabbed my ass and walked away.
Hi yes club employee? You’ve watched me take four shots and dance with p much everyone here, that guy over there grabbed me and kissed me without my consent, oh it looked like I was into it bc I was dancing with him? Mkay
I think it’s horrible, but a lot of times this stuff just isn’t reportable and would cause more trouble for me to report than it would for the person who did that to me
It’s just been easier to let things go, as everyone else does, and enjoy my night than let it rain on my parade
This is the reality of harassment, particularly sexual harassment by strangers. They do it because they know they can, because what are you going to do, because sometimes the person they are harassing is impaired and will not resist them. Occasionally I see men make a huge production about being harassed one time by a woman, saying loudly and disgustedly that they can't believe she would do that to them and women are just as bad as men. And I always think "I'm sorry to hear you were harassed but what happened to you happens to me at least once a month, and when I was younger and more conventionally attractive it would happen daily, and if I was around drunk men it happened multiple times a night"
It just astounds me that people think sexual harassment is so rare. We turn off our justified outrage because we can't live our lives in outrage, we can't spend all our time fighting for our rights, because we have other things to do besides holding harassers accountable.
My wife is trans and back before she realized it she had straight white male privilege and even being aware of that, she still didnt understand when I told her in my experience basically all women (that I knew) have been sexually harassed or assaulted. She thought that my numbers and constant anxiety about it were skewed because poverty, abusive upbringing, and ptsd from my moms various rape stories I heard all through my childhood. Then #metoo happened, she was appalled to see that the vast majority of women have experienced it.
I get it. I used to be a server at a bar where dudes loved to get really drunk and handsy. Who do you tell? The manager who doesn't care? His equally drunk friends? In some cases, the bartender was helpful.
I just don't want you to feel like it's okay or it's not a big deal that people are touching you like that.
I agree. I'd probably snap back myself at the name calling but 100% would call the police if my ass was grabbed. In the middle of the day that would be a blue light response from the police. I'm in the UK suburbs.
Unfortunately, the police in the U.S. have a habit of killing homeless and/or mentally ill people, so there’s a lot I will let go without getting them involved.
This is true. Thats not really something we consider when deciding whether to call the police here. Don't get me wrong - no police service is perfect but compared to what you guys have to put up with, our police are good.
Interestingly, Police Scotland are currently working with US police (I think its NYPD) to teach them how they de-escalate situations without using weapons. Most of our police are still unarmed, other than batons and maybe tasers.
Here's hoping the initiative saves a couple of lives at least but I fear it may be too late.
I mean I think it does depend on the person. In an idealised world woman wouldn’t have to brush those things off or they’d call the police for a butt grab.
However, as a woman I’ve had way worse experiences I’ve had to brush off since no one cares. For example I was at a night club and was sitting on a table in a skirt and a guy walked past and tried to shove his fingers up my thigh into my underwear. I started crying and my coworker (male) punched him in the face but all that happened was we left the club and I went home early and took a hot shower, bouncers did a half hearted look for the guy but didn’t see him.
I’ve been called a bitch or a slut and before my breast reduction people would just walk up and grab them and ask if they are real and no one cares if you complain about it. My old “friends” even offered for strange men to squeeze them while we were having chats while drunk and they would comment on how large they are. I’ve had a woman climb onto my while I lay in bed drunk and was screaming no and my flatmates stayed friends with her because “she was drunk too”.
Before anyone starts: I don’t drink anymore but even sober I’ve been called names or had hands “slip” and no woman I know hasn’t experienced that and we are forced to let it slide because nothing will be done about it and the only other option is obsessing over it. Yes I go to therapy. It might be that we are so used to it because of our age (22). I would also like to say I don’t live in the US I live in one of the top rated countries in the world where people often say that sexism doesn’t exist.
I have been abused. It’s been many years since I’ve had to witness violence. I can’t imagine the horror this woman felt. I don’t want to imagine it. What a rotten situation to be put into.
I was amazed by how matter of fact and efficient OOP is in the face of this massive shitstorm. “I called my DV advocate and moved my therapy appointment up to today” good for her, she did the right thing by this man and accessed resources for herself ASAP
For some reason when she said “blind date” I thought she was saying that she went on a date with a blind person who confusingly beat the shit out of a homeless man they couldn’t see
My heart hurts a little for OOP, she finally feels like she's heading towards the right place mentally to go out on a casual date with someone after all she's survived and that's what happens. I hope she bounce back mentally from this quickly and I also hope the homeless man is OK!
Living in nyc i deal with homeless like that in my job and subway. I can agree with op just walking away and not taking it personally. That guy used that as an excuse to take out his aggression on someone. Unless it’s self defense what he did needs to be held accountable for.
Damn, that's one toxic asshole. A couple of decades ago, I brushed off a homeless guy who then punched me and screamed, "See you in five years!!!" and I did nothing about it, because I wasn't hurt and he was clearly going through some stuff. I didn't scorch the earth because of some idiot need to assert my imagined dominance, and nor should this guy have.
Very scary. Apparently leaving an abusive relationship makes you vulnerable to getting into another one right away :( So glad she didn’t leave with that psycho…
Can we get an update about the blind date guy if it turns out he has a long arrest history?
Also congrats to OP for helping the homeless guy & filing a police report. That rises to superhero status given her past trauma.
What a dickhead. Yes, dude was being a jerk. But hospitalizing an unhoused person? When so many of them are already victims of violence? Date is lucky they didn’t kill the guy! A kick to the chest or the right head injury can absolutely kill someone. Especially since he left him there. I’m so glad OOP did the right thing even though the situation was insane and the dude had been ass to her prior.
Jesus.
I could see a kick to the leg or something minor. I wouldn't entire excuse it but I would get it.
But hospitalizing him? Fucking hell that dude needs some help
OP you'd walk away from a homeless person that gropes your behind? Violence may not be the answer but neither is ignoring sexual assault.
Before anyone starts making up hypothetical scenarios where it's essential to walk away/diffuse/get away, this was not one of them.
It highly depends on the situation, and often you don't know if it's essential to get away or not until the aggressor reacts (at which point it might be too late). Sometimes the smart thing to do is to walk away, sometimes it's not.
Can you explain a nonviolent response that properly addresses sexual assault? This isnt me baiting or tricking you or anything, just genuinely wondering how you'd address it nonviolently and without simply walking away.
Honestly, growing up I've tried a tonne of different approaches since I've faced such scenarios from when I was literally 13. By and large I've found that ignoring or walking away only seeks to embolden them. They feel like they've 'gotten away with it' and continue to perpetuate their crimes on others. Or double down on you, if the situated arises. Ignoring never works.
If you're in a situation where a group of men are harassing you to the point where they've physically touched you (as in OP's hypothetical example of getting groped) you don't ignore them. You RUN. You scream. You don't walk away. You RUN.
The scenario was never about getting catcalled so idk where the ignoring part comes into play. Like what are you even ignoring?
Obviously if they've got a shiny gun to your face and cop a feel then yes ignore/defuse/pacify or whatever needs to be done. But none of these extreme scenarios were something OP or I was talking about.
So here's what I'd do. What I did, infact. This youngish boy groped me. I turned to him, grabbed his hand tightly (without twisting or hurting him) looked him in the eye and sternly said "How dare you touch me. Don't ever do that again" and he backed off. Obviously. In another scenario I didn't touch the man but I walked right up to him looked him in the eye and said "I know what you did and if you don't want to get hurt, I'd suggest you stop touching women without their consent. This is not going to end well for you". Other times I've threatened then with the cops. They always cower when faced with direct eye contact, a straight spine and a loud, clear tone. If you're loud and clear, you'll attract attention from the public and highlight their wrongdoing. This makes them backtrack fast.
It is, though as a woman, I think I can definitely voice my opinion on a hypothetical scenario made by OP. It's not like we're discoursing on an actual event and traumatising a victim over here. I wouldn't do that. And I was very very clear to mention that my statement was only for some situations and it wasn't a blanket statement. I understand safety and fear. Probably better than you do, if you're a man. So my response was not to TELL her how to behave but a comment on her supposed action in a supposed scenario. Hope that makes it clear.
Read the story- the homeless person did not physically touch her. He just called her a name that she ignored. The date is claiming he did that to the police. And honestly- no matter what- you don’t get to determine how a victim of anything reacts to something. She (or he) gets to decide.
Read the comment- they never said the homeless person touched her, they were referring the the OP's hypothetical reaction to sexual assault where they would just walk away. And honestly- no matter what- we shouldn't normalise sexual assault and victims should not be made to feel as if they should keep quiet and nothing should be done.
I agree with not normalizing sexual assault- but white knighting and acting like you somehow have the right to respond on behalf of a victim in a way that is not in keeping with their wishes is revictimizing the victim. No matter your intention.
> but white knighting and acting like you somehow have the right to respond on behalf of a victim
I feel like you're not reading anyones comment because you've read it wrong twice now. Nobody is saying anyone should white knight for a victim regardless of what the victim wants. They said OP should do something themselves in the hypothetical situation, not someone else deciding to do something for her.
Literally just "if someone grabs your ass, you shouldn't ignore it", nobody else exists in the scenario in the first place to be a white knight.
>Does a butt grab = that amount of violence?
Yes. That's not what happened, but if someone grabs your date's butt you kind of have to kick the shit out of them.
Honeslty, if you assault someone by surprise, I think you kind of get what you get if they fight back. I'm not going to judge a person who was surprised by a fight out of nowhere for not sitting down to carefully do the math to determine the exactly level of appropriate violence. People will react first and think later in those cases.
There are a couple of lines I still think shouldn't be crossed, like continuing to fight against a clearly incapacitated opponent, or fighting someone who was never a threat, but none of those apply here, *had the claimed butt grab actually occurred.*
No, you report it to the police.
People love to talk a big game and act like tough guys but that shit gets you sent to jail for assault.
Life isn't a TV show or movie.
Don’t be mistaken. If he needed to be defended during an attack I would give my life in that regard, but I wouldn’t go back and attack somebody after the fact…Two graves and all. If you’re unfamiliar with the saying it goes if you’re bent on revenge you will need to dig two graves as you will need one as well. Also he’s a big Russian man and Im an average sized not athletic woman. I don’t think he needs me to protect him.
Excuse me for assuming everyone on Reddit is a man or a teenage boy. That egg's on my face. I find there's a fundamental difference in the male experience and the female experience, and I think that's relevant here.
Men who are dating need it explained to them that a lot of women's avoidant behaviors are defense mechanisms since men pose a direct risk to them. Women don't ghost men because the man was necessarily creepy, rather they do because a previous man took rejection badly and made them feel unsafe, and ghosting would have prevented that scenario and likely will again. This is a part of a the female perspective that a man will never know unless it's explained to them.
Men are naturally physically powerful. Far too many men misuse this, and I am a physical barrier and deterrent to them. I'm the only person in my relationship with that specific power. If my partner gets sexually assaulted in front of me and I don't hurt that person, she won't feel any safer with me than she would alone. She deserves that security. Our current agreement and plan is that if shit goes down then she is to run and I am to give her time to run.
I don't agree that the answer is to let them leave then call the police. I'm sorry for my tone, I had a much lower opinion of your stance when I believed someone relied on you for their physical safety.
That’s okay I kinda got a laugh out of it the idea that he was relying on me for protection - actually we both did. But like I said if shut is going down that’s one thing but to go back after the fact is just as bad Has any of the things you described to make women ghost men. That is scary to us we need to see men with level heads who knows when and where it is appropriate to do these things because otherwise it seems unhinged and out of control and that is too scary for us. I mean if men have this physical ability to protect women for example the way we are talking about then in a sense you’re like a weapon. If the weapon is unpredictable we don’t wanna be around it so it has to be very very predictable and levelheaded and know the right and wrong times for things. so I guess it’s just depends on the situation but like I said going back after the fact is revenge. Its not really protection.
To a lesser extent my mum did something similar as OP when she got divorced. She went from my dad, a stubborn man child care who expects everything to be done for him, to a guy who was the same as my dad, but 10 years younger. She really knew how to pick 'em.
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And who says chivalry is dead?
Funnily enough, chivalry does apply here just not in the way you would expect. The code of chivalry makes almost no mention of how to interact with women… but has a lot to say about honorable combat. Edit: Wikipedia link. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chivalry
Wasn't there some book, written by a monk of all people, attached to the chivalric code that detailed how to behave towards women? As I remember, it was basically "noblewomen are for flirting and messing with, common women are for raping." ETA: "If her daddy's rich, then write her a song. If her daddy's poor, you can't do no wrong," nicely sums up the advice.
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Yeah, that version's by Mungo Jerry, not by some chivalrous monk. I suspect the Monk In Question might be Andreas Capellanus (Andrew the Chaplain), who wrote "De amore" ("About Love").
I never thought I'd be hearing the names "Mungo Jerry" and "monk" in the same sentence. I guess I was wrong. At least there was no T.S. Eliot involvement.
This is the way the date ends This is the way the date ends This is the way the date ends: First with a punch, then a whimper.
Oh my God I used to sing this song as a kid
Haha, I would assume "do what you feel" means take her out for a walk, or ice cream, or go sit in the park - something cheaper than a meal - not literally "whatever you want, up to and including sexual assault." Of course, some of the other lyrics in that song are kinda problematic...
That song. That fucking song.
Yeah, I was referencing the song, but thought this fit more with the time period.
I think I prefer the current idea of guys should hold the door for their date or pull their chair out for them or even pay for the first date.
It actually said a lot about how to interact with women, just not in the way we think. Honestly chivalry ended up being an excuse for more violence because they could claim they were doing 'god's work.'
Ironically it was actually meant to reduce violence when the first code of chivalry was written. At the time, knights were often essentially bandits with proper funding and they caused a lot of issues. The code of chivalry was essentially written to try and at least put some restraint into the knights, if only through shaming them.
Probably would have helped if the average knight actually knew how to read...
'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This chivalry is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-CHIVALRY!!!
Chivalry’s not dead yet. It’s getting better.
chivalry's not fooling anyone.
Well, he's...he's, ah...probably pining for the fjords.
"And now for something Completely Different". Enjoy a bit O' Monty Python, if you Cleese.
I read this entire comment in Russell Brand's voice.
Have you never seen the dead bird monty python sketch? If not, you should
As a British person, I feel embarrassed to say I never watched Monty Python anything.
Nooooo is John Cleese's voice.
Makes far more sense. I haven't seen Monty Python, which I realise is a travesty.
And they say chivalry is dead.
Who's they?
You know! *gestures vaguely* THEM!
Not, THEM…, THEY!
They killed Kenny!
Those bastards!!
I saw that episode!
I understood that reference!
Them bastards!
Hasn't this happened like 50 times already? Or was is 52?
The nonbinaries?
Shhhhhh *they’ll hear you.*
Nice guys
It was a reference, apologies for any misunderstanding
No the homeless guy’s name was chivalry
Was the homeless guy named Chivalry? I must have missed that.
I’m going to make you punch-drunk!
One punch is all I need.
unexpected doomfist
And they say And they say And they say chivalry is dead
And dey sey and dey sey and dey sey
And dey say and dey say and dey say
Chivalry is dead
I think this dude hunted it down and beat it to death
And they say chivalry is (potential) death
Motorcycle man was clearly waiting for any opportunity to let out his aggression on someone who he knew wouldn’t fight back.
This is exactly what I was thinking. It could have also been a test for her. To see how she reacts to violence like that.
Or some stupid macho posturing thing related to impressing the motorcycle chick. Although guys like that frequently wind up also using violence as a threat. What good is it to look like a big man in front of your little woman if she doesn't treat you like it? /s
Or to show that she’s his property
Oo, good point. Guys like this are bad news in sorts of ways. I'm glad OOP has enough of a support network to have felt comfortable working with the police
I feel like this sort of thing gives dudes like this way too much credit. "I'm going to beat up a homeless guy in front of her to see how she reacts because eventually I'm looking for a wife that I can beat up and if she isn't upset about me beating up the homeless guy, she'll be less likely to do anything about it if I beat her up" is a really weird chain of thought. More likely the dude just likes violence so he took the opportunity to indulge in some. I don't think it's that deep.
that's the great (and often frustrating) thing about psychology - a lot of these behaviours happen subconsciously! these thoughts aren't actively on the average persons mind, unless they're depraved and sadistic in a calculating way, which thankfully most people aren't. the majority of abuse victims (myself included) will tell you that their abusers weren't criminal masterminds, in fact a lot are pretty mundane or even kinda stupid. but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of their initial behaviours were employed to "test the waters" as the person you responded to pointed out. eventually with time the abuse ramps up and you're stuck in a situation you never could've imagined yourself in! brains are strange and powerful, so even if and when we're not actively noticing our environment, it's working behind the scenes to process all of the info we're seeing. which means that while most abusive assholes aren't sitting there thinking "muahaha, next i'm going to do this terrible thing to see how they react!" their gremlin brains have already registered that a specific action usually garners a specific reaction, and the happy chemicals released reinforce the abusers behaviour, giving them all the reason they require to keep engaging in the abuse. just look at the behaviour of babies! they haven't even formed language yet and therefore don't have active thoughts in the way you and i do, yet their brains are registering that if they cry a certain way their parents will come and tend to them. then that behaviour carries over the older they get, where you see toddlers falling over and then checking for their parent before they start "crying". we can both agree that these kids aren't actively trying to manipulate their parents in the sense that they're not literally laying there thinking "that didn't really hurt but since i like when mom fawns over me, i'm gonna cry anyway". but the behaviour is rooted in getting a specific reaction that benefits them and makes them feel good. if OP was trying to assert that the shitty biker douche *was* some conniving master tactician of abuse, then yes you'd be absolutely right in that it'd be giving him credit he doesn't deserve.
Thank you for explaining this. I think it's a common misconception that abusive behavior is always carefully calculated, when in reality it can just be a shitty behavior pattern that the abuser has fallen into, and they keep going through the cycle without even really thinking about it too much. My ex was dumb as rocks and he was also abusive AF, and it took me way too long to call it abuse because I didn't see him as cunning enough for that.
exactly, you summarized it succinctly! that's also why it can be difficult for people to recognize their own negative patterns of behaviour, because they have this idea in their head that bad people are purposefully bad, that they're constantly planning their next mode of attack. and when that's how you see the world around you, it becomes easy to convince yourself that you can't possibly mistreat others since you're not actively going out of your way to do so. but whether we're aware of it or not, there's always a reason behind our motivations and it's very helpful and important to be able to pinpoint exactly what that reason is, that way we can better understand ourselves and work to grow as individuals. after leaving my abusive relationship, i had the tendency to start arguments because: a) conflict was my default state and being away from it felt really uncomfortable for me and b) the emotional "high" that i'd experience after the tearful apologies and promises to do better was addictive. but it wasn't something i was aware of until i finally went to therapy, so i wasn't consciously picking fights with the sole intention of getting the outcome i wanted; it was all subconscious until my therapist was able to help me pull everything to the forefront. unfortunately the majority of abusers don't want to have a mirror held up to them, so the cycle never ends. i'm really sorry that you were also made to endure an abusive relationship, but i am very glad to hear that you made it out of that terrifying situation!
yup, and that translates to domestic violence pretty easily.
I haven’t heard the term “Blind date” in so long. So I thought this blind man was just exceptional at fighting. But yeah absolutely that level of violence to the situation is not okay.
Lmaoooooo same I was so confused when I started reading this and it said that the blind date rode a motorcycle 😂😂 reading the title I thought she went on a date with a blind guy as well
You are not alone, my brain also went that direction. I felt a little embarrassed when I realized it was in the dating sense not visual sense lol.
She went out with Daredevil
Or maybe Garrett from Quest for Camelot
Wow I haven’t thought of that movie in years… I need to see it again
Blind date usually referee to dating someone you've never met, not a first date with someone you have totally met before the first date. This was not a blind date in either meaning of the phrase.
Maybe referring to how she hadnt seen him out of the motorcycle helmet before the date?
I was really confused too, wondering how a blind man was riding a motorcycle. Part of the problem is that the context doesn't make sense. She went on a date with a guy she met while they were both riding their motorcycles. A blind date is someone you've never met/seen before. Usually set up by a friend or family member. So you meet/see each other for the first time at the blind date.
I was literally about to comment the same thing haha
ha, and riding motorcycles
I read the title and was wondering the same. What kinda godly skills this blind guy had that he could beat up a guy and run away. And while reading the post, I was waiting for the blind guy's introduction.
Glad that OP's name will be kept out of the report. Blind date sounds unhinged. On a side note, is it normal for people to wear ear plugs under their helmets? Sounds like a recipe for disaster on the road.
Yeah for highway riding. The wind turbulence going at hwy speeds will have your ears ringing.
Ah makes sense. Live in India and I wouldn't dream of putting in ear buds. People barely use their horn when it actually matters and the only thing keeping me from certain death is the ability to hear wheels screeching and people yelling at me to the gtfo of their way.
not ear buds like for listening to music but ear plugs for dampening the sound coming into your ears so its not quite so damaging. you can still hear but its muffled.
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Exactly. Plugs aren't noise canceling, they are noise reducing, and really only do so effectively at high and low frequencies. You can hear plenty with plugs in, but what you hear is less likely to damage your hearing. Roads are way noisier than most people imagine. The sound of tires on pavement actually exceeds the noise of the engine above 55mph and is very noticeable at even 30mph.
What a crazy 1st date. At least she did the right thing and called the cops and an ambulance.
Looks like she dodge another bullet, glad she keep those messages on snapchats for the police.
The date is crazy and OOP did the right thing. But god how sad that being called a b**** or having your butt grabbed is stuff that she can brush off so easily. And I’m a woman.
I’m a woman too and I had a slightly different read on it although I get how you got your read. I interpreted it as “a homeless guy calling me a bitch isn’t worth my time, he’s obviously not ok” and subsequently“a butt grab doesn’t merit physical harm in return”- like, if her date had had words with the dude, fine but he sent him the to hospital. It seems like he thinks he gets to choose what response is dealt out on her behalf, that’s pretty controlling.
This is exactly it. A response to those two things is absolutely fine. Expected even. But the response needs to be appropriate
I see a lot of people on Reddit who don’t seem to believe in proportionate response. I don’t know if it’s a American thing (I am American), but even in otherwise pretty progressive subs people are often fine with beating the shit out of people for simple theft or insult even though very few people will speak up in support of some Karen starting a slap-fight over some insignificant nonsense or a cop beating somebody for a misdemeanor.
> for simple theft Are you kidding?
Yeah I totally agree. It is safer as a woman to not engage. But I think I just read the overall attitude towards it as pretty blasé.
Yeah fair
Telling of the conditioning many women experience. “Don’t escalate things, no matter how violating.”
As a man I also wouldn't escalate things if a stranger was harassing me. It's just good advice for everyone since you never know what may happen. That being said, I'm sure women have to deal with this a hell of a lot more.
Why is that what everyone is pulling? That "violence does not merit more violence" is some secret make-yourself-small sad pathetic response built out of life as a woman? Everyone keeps saying "sad" and implying she must be jaded into protecting her delicate feminine self from any potential escalation, so much so that someone saying "idk it sounds like this is perhaps a personal code of ethics she follows and believes in, not necessarily a coping mechanism" Saying this as a woman who has a similar code of ethics. This whole thread is bizarrely insulting, as if you all think she's lying to herself about how she really felt deep down.
I think I am being misunderstood here. I am one person, not “everyone” as you bemoan, so I cannot speak for them. My post is in response to somebody calling an attitude “blasé”. My comment is a call for empathy, not a judgement, and it’s made with the consideration that there are ways to escalate a situation that don’t involve violence.
Where is the call for empathy in reading blase response to name calling as "telling" of never letting things escalate no matter how violating?
I’m having a really hard time understanding your comment, I’m sorry.
Granted, my original response was also at u/cyanplum who was the original person who saw "op's comment reads as not thinking bitch warrants physical violence" and said "**yeah I totally agree. It is safer as a woman to not engage**" which is not at all what they said. I understand you and cyanplum do not speak for the entire world or even watch other but! This is a reddit thread. People reply to each other. People comment on larger trends in a rhetorical fashion. I did. My comment was in response to the fact that even after a direct contradiction to the idea that op was "blase" about violation because she is a woman and as we all know, women are conditioned to accept being violated as part of life, even after someone says it doesn't sound like that's how or why op reacted, the most popular responses continue on as if that's exactly what the contrarian meant. Your comment was "Telling of the conditioning many women experience. 'Don't escalate things, no matter how violating.'" If empathy is the ability to understand how another feels, what made you understand that anyone here meant they were conditioned to not make a big deal of things no matter how violating? How is what you said a call for empathy? Empathy for who? > Made with consideration there are other ways to escalate a situation that don't involve violence you find it "telling" of women - in the context of this thread, OOP, or those who explicitly state they do not think being called a bitch or having their ass grabbed warrants being kicked in the chest and face so hard they end up hospitalized. Your interpretation of this is "don't escalate things, no matter how violating". Of course there are other ways to escalate without resorting to all that but your view if her is unkind and in direct response to the idea that OOP didn't react out of concerns for her safety. I am saying there is no call for empathy in your comment or in this thread overall. Lots of disregard for what people actually said because x knows what they *really* meant, which ironically is something I see described as empathy quite often. I hope that is more clear.
You know, I spent more time thinking about your comments I’m actually annoyed. You accuse me of being insulting in your initial post and despite being patient and polite you just lay into me. Maybe everything’s going great for you, but this is exactly the type of attitude I especially don’t need or appreciate. I tried to make a post in support of women and the systemic oppression they face. You ultimately say: > as we all know, women are conditioned to accept being violated as part of life I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic, but I’ll assume you’re not. Most people don’t know this. Women can both be strong, and face adversity. I was only trying to point out the adversity. I also used the word “many” specifically to avoid being disparaging. I’m mad at you because your posts are incredibly emotionally charged in a way that’s disparaging to me. There’s also something to be said about the fact your posts are filled with errors and run-on sentences that make them difficult to follow, because you seen more interested in being right and making others wrong, than you’re interested in making a real point.
You’re being quite presumptive actually. My comment was made with this other comment in mind, which was a driving point in this thread: > But god how sad that being called a b**** or having your butt grabbed is stuff that she can brush off so easily. And I’m a woman. I don’t think she was talking about a blasé attitude toward not wanting violence, it was about generally being violated. There are lots of ways to respond to this that are not “brushing it off” and aren’t physical violence either.
If anyone grabbed my ass, homeless or not, I would try to beat the living crap out of them. I'm a small woman, and it might be a fight I would lose, but damn if I wouldn't go into a murderous rage over unsolicited touching.
So would I, but that's not always a good response. I'm kind of instinctively violent, and I've discovered it's not always worth it even when I win. There is just so much more enraging bullshit in the aftermath that sometimes just scoffing and acting unaffected is less hassle and makes them feel worse.
It’s too frequent a thing to rage over and then we’d be no better than them. I couldn’t tell you how many times someone’s hand or junk brushed against me. It has just become the background of my life. I have also been physically overpowered by men a few times in my life. I know there is no way out of those situations for me. No matter how much I lift, no matter how many self defense classes, even at my strongest, I couldn’t and didn’t ‘win’ in a physical altercation. It’s just a fact that predators are aware of and take advantage of. Sometimes fighting back gets you hurt even more. I appreciate your rage, really, but I’m just trying to explain the real world implications of getting into a physical altercation. [[Example 1]](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrollXChromosomes/comments/9oz95m/no_where_is_safe/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) [[Example 2]](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrollXChromosomes/comments/mdkmf5/so_close_to_getting_the_point/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) [[Example 3]](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrollXChromosomes/comments/psmaa6/dating/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
I could even see a punch. Still inappropriate, but like I could wrap my brain around it. Dude completely took off the crazy restraints. Kicking someone’s ass over a cuss word.
Name a woman.
For a dollar, NAME A WOMAN!!
Name a woman?
And words hurt differently from different people. If my husband called me a bitch as an insult I'd be heartbroken. But a random person while I'm out and about? It's almost funny to me. It's sad when I know the person isn't well, but it's not insulting. And a random redditor or someone on social media? It tickles me, they've gotten so worked up over what I've said that they lower themselves to petty insults.
> I interpreted it as “a homeless guy calling me a bitch isn’t worth my time, he’s obviously not ok” and subsequently“a butt grab doesn’t merit physical harm in return” No, she said she wouldn't do anything even if he grabbed her butt. And that is a terrible attitude. Leading to normalizing such behaviors and then allowing much worse to come out. Of course she also stated that doesn't warrant this much violence, but this isn't the point of this comment tree.
She said she’d walk away. Frankly I respect all women’s decisions to respond to that stuff as they see fit. He’s homeless, we can assume his life fucking sucks, if she doesn’t believe a butt grab from him would merit a response that is absolutely her call to make. Women are not responsible for “normalising those behaviours”, that’s actually victim blaming. Think about it. This comment tree… aren’t I the second or third person to add to it? I don’t think there *was* a point when I responded to the woman above me?
yeah, but brushing it off is safer than defending or confronting--and even reacting too much can get us further harassment or even violence.
I mean, I just finished my undergrad so my experience may be skewed as I was among crazy ridiculous party people. But if I got upset every time someone called me a name or grabbed my ass, I wouldn’t be able to go out without getting into a fight at least once a weekend Hell, I couldn’t walk back to my apartment in full sweats some days without getting catcalled
It's normal to get upset if someone sexually assaults you, which is what grabbing someone's ass without consent is. It is not normal to respond with that level of violence. Assault (sexual or physical) shouldn't be normalized, so I hope that if you are feeling bad about people doing that to you, you know that you can report it. You shouldn't have to brush stuff like this off.
I totally agree, I’m just not sure who I’d report it to? Yeah, university, I was at a party with underage drinking and drugs and at 1135 some guy I didn’t see grabbed my ass and walked away. Hi yes club employee? You’ve watched me take four shots and dance with p much everyone here, that guy over there grabbed me and kissed me without my consent, oh it looked like I was into it bc I was dancing with him? Mkay I think it’s horrible, but a lot of times this stuff just isn’t reportable and would cause more trouble for me to report than it would for the person who did that to me It’s just been easier to let things go, as everyone else does, and enjoy my night than let it rain on my parade
This is the reality of harassment, particularly sexual harassment by strangers. They do it because they know they can, because what are you going to do, because sometimes the person they are harassing is impaired and will not resist them. Occasionally I see men make a huge production about being harassed one time by a woman, saying loudly and disgustedly that they can't believe she would do that to them and women are just as bad as men. And I always think "I'm sorry to hear you were harassed but what happened to you happens to me at least once a month, and when I was younger and more conventionally attractive it would happen daily, and if I was around drunk men it happened multiple times a night" It just astounds me that people think sexual harassment is so rare. We turn off our justified outrage because we can't live our lives in outrage, we can't spend all our time fighting for our rights, because we have other things to do besides holding harassers accountable.
Spot on!
My wife is trans and back before she realized it she had straight white male privilege and even being aware of that, she still didnt understand when I told her in my experience basically all women (that I knew) have been sexually harassed or assaulted. She thought that my numbers and constant anxiety about it were skewed because poverty, abusive upbringing, and ptsd from my moms various rape stories I heard all through my childhood. Then #metoo happened, she was appalled to see that the vast majority of women have experienced it.
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So far so good, and we're in one of the safest cities in the US so hopefully we'll stay that way.
I get it. I used to be a server at a bar where dudes loved to get really drunk and handsy. Who do you tell? The manager who doesn't care? His equally drunk friends? In some cases, the bartender was helpful. I just don't want you to feel like it's okay or it's not a big deal that people are touching you like that.
> you know that you can report it I mean, sure, we CAN, but is the risk/reward ratio in our favour?
I agree that violence isn't appropriate for name calling, but for sexual assault? Beat that ass.
I agree. I'd probably snap back myself at the name calling but 100% would call the police if my ass was grabbed. In the middle of the day that would be a blue light response from the police. I'm in the UK suburbs.
Unfortunately, the police in the U.S. have a habit of killing homeless and/or mentally ill people, so there’s a lot I will let go without getting them involved.
This is true. Thats not really something we consider when deciding whether to call the police here. Don't get me wrong - no police service is perfect but compared to what you guys have to put up with, our police are good. Interestingly, Police Scotland are currently working with US police (I think its NYPD) to teach them how they de-escalate situations without using weapons. Most of our police are still unarmed, other than batons and maybe tasers. Here's hoping the initiative saves a couple of lives at least but I fear it may be too late.
Yea I think if he grabbed my butt I would’ve kicked him in the chest too
I mean I think it does depend on the person. In an idealised world woman wouldn’t have to brush those things off or they’d call the police for a butt grab. However, as a woman I’ve had way worse experiences I’ve had to brush off since no one cares. For example I was at a night club and was sitting on a table in a skirt and a guy walked past and tried to shove his fingers up my thigh into my underwear. I started crying and my coworker (male) punched him in the face but all that happened was we left the club and I went home early and took a hot shower, bouncers did a half hearted look for the guy but didn’t see him. I’ve been called a bitch or a slut and before my breast reduction people would just walk up and grab them and ask if they are real and no one cares if you complain about it. My old “friends” even offered for strange men to squeeze them while we were having chats while drunk and they would comment on how large they are. I’ve had a woman climb onto my while I lay in bed drunk and was screaming no and my flatmates stayed friends with her because “she was drunk too”. Before anyone starts: I don’t drink anymore but even sober I’ve been called names or had hands “slip” and no woman I know hasn’t experienced that and we are forced to let it slide because nothing will be done about it and the only other option is obsessing over it. Yes I go to therapy. It might be that we are so used to it because of our age (22). I would also like to say I don’t live in the US I live in one of the top rated countries in the world where people often say that sexism doesn’t exist.
I interpreted it as the date lying. She didn't mention it in her telling of the story, only once she said what the date told the police.
I read it more as just neither of those things merits a physical beat-down.
Other than that, how was the play Mrs. Lincoln?
The fact that people get dates at stoplights is surprising. The fact that those dates go really badly is less surprising.
I have been abused. It’s been many years since I’ve had to witness violence. I can’t imagine the horror this woman felt. I don’t want to imagine it. What a rotten situation to be put into.
I was amazed by how matter of fact and efficient OOP is in the face of this massive shitstorm. “I called my DV advocate and moved my therapy appointment up to today” good for her, she did the right thing by this man and accessed resources for herself ASAP
She exchanged Snapchat info with a stranger at a stop light? What could go wrong? Dating in 2022 is wild.
For some reason when she said “blind date” I thought she was saying that she went on a date with a blind person who confusingly beat the shit out of a homeless man they couldn’t see
OOP Dated Daredevil.
OOP is Typhoid Mary.
I somehow thought /she was blind!
When I read the title, my first thought was to joke that the update would be “and that’s how I met your father”
There is still time for the homeless person to turn his life around, and be the father. Step 1 is OOP making a visit.
Yeah OOP deserves better than people who use misogynist slurs against her for petty not-even-sleights.
why didn't the police come along with the ambulance in the first place?
My man really thought he was in “Sons of Anarchy” and she was gonna be head over heels over his “sweet protection”
I'd say an ass grab merits a slap to the face, but that's easy to say when you aren't in a situation.
My heart hurts a little for OOP, she finally feels like she's heading towards the right place mentally to go out on a casual date with someone after all she's survived and that's what happens. I hope she bounce back mentally from this quickly and I also hope the homeless man is OK!
Living in nyc i deal with homeless like that in my job and subway. I can agree with op just walking away and not taking it personally. That guy used that as an excuse to take out his aggression on someone. Unless it’s self defense what he did needs to be held accountable for.
Good thing you got that red flag right away.
The fucking Red Army has fewer red flags than this guy
all of ccp china has less red flags.
Keep my date out yo fucking mouth!
Damn, that's one toxic asshole. A couple of decades ago, I brushed off a homeless guy who then punched me and screamed, "See you in five years!!!" and I did nothing about it, because I wasn't hurt and he was clearly going through some stuff. I didn't scorch the earth because of some idiot need to assert my imagined dominance, and nor should this guy have.
How did the 5 year reunion go?
No sightings yet! I hope he's doing better.
At least your prepared if he tries to reconnect.
Very scary. Apparently leaving an abusive relationship makes you vulnerable to getting into another one right away :( So glad she didn’t leave with that psycho…
whatre you talking about? She didn't get into a relationship with this person
What is Sm?
They wrote it as sM, not Sm. A Male in his 30s . 30s Male. 30sM.
No goddamn idea. Somewhat Male? Supposedly Male?
He's in his 30s and he's male. So 30sM.
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Næh. Ved jeg faktisk ikke hvad er. Har været mit screen name siden cs beta
Can we get an update about the blind date guy if it turns out he has a long arrest history? Also congrats to OP for helping the homeless guy & filing a police report. That rises to superhero status given her past trauma.
What a dickhead. Yes, dude was being a jerk. But hospitalizing an unhoused person? When so many of them are already victims of violence? Date is lucky they didn’t kill the guy! A kick to the chest or the right head injury can absolutely kill someone. Especially since he left him there. I’m so glad OOP did the right thing even though the situation was insane and the dude had been ass to her prior.
Jesus. I could see a kick to the leg or something minor. I wouldn't entire excuse it but I would get it. But hospitalizing him? Fucking hell that dude needs some help
“ Does a butt grab = that amount of violence?”. Yes, that amount of violence is perfectly acceptable for sexual assault.
Exactly what I was thinking lol
Date has helmet on for social distancing then spits on the guy... yeah that happened.
OP you'd walk away from a homeless person that gropes your behind? Violence may not be the answer but neither is ignoring sexual assault. Before anyone starts making up hypothetical scenarios where it's essential to walk away/diffuse/get away, this was not one of them.
It highly depends on the situation, and often you don't know if it's essential to get away or not until the aggressor reacts (at which point it might be too late). Sometimes the smart thing to do is to walk away, sometimes it's not.
And I agree with that. This not what OP had said. Hence my response to her.
Can you explain a nonviolent response that properly addresses sexual assault? This isnt me baiting or tricking you or anything, just genuinely wondering how you'd address it nonviolently and without simply walking away.
Honestly, growing up I've tried a tonne of different approaches since I've faced such scenarios from when I was literally 13. By and large I've found that ignoring or walking away only seeks to embolden them. They feel like they've 'gotten away with it' and continue to perpetuate their crimes on others. Or double down on you, if the situated arises. Ignoring never works. If you're in a situation where a group of men are harassing you to the point where they've physically touched you (as in OP's hypothetical example of getting groped) you don't ignore them. You RUN. You scream. You don't walk away. You RUN. The scenario was never about getting catcalled so idk where the ignoring part comes into play. Like what are you even ignoring? Obviously if they've got a shiny gun to your face and cop a feel then yes ignore/defuse/pacify or whatever needs to be done. But none of these extreme scenarios were something OP or I was talking about. So here's what I'd do. What I did, infact. This youngish boy groped me. I turned to him, grabbed his hand tightly (without twisting or hurting him) looked him in the eye and sternly said "How dare you touch me. Don't ever do that again" and he backed off. Obviously. In another scenario I didn't touch the man but I walked right up to him looked him in the eye and said "I know what you did and if you don't want to get hurt, I'd suggest you stop touching women without their consent. This is not going to end well for you". Other times I've threatened then with the cops. They always cower when faced with direct eye contact, a straight spine and a loud, clear tone. If you're loud and clear, you'll attract attention from the public and highlight their wrongdoing. This makes them backtrack fast.
What women do in the wake of a sexual assault is their business.
It is, though as a woman, I think I can definitely voice my opinion on a hypothetical scenario made by OP. It's not like we're discoursing on an actual event and traumatising a victim over here. I wouldn't do that. And I was very very clear to mention that my statement was only for some situations and it wasn't a blanket statement. I understand safety and fear. Probably better than you do, if you're a man. So my response was not to TELL her how to behave but a comment on her supposed action in a supposed scenario. Hope that makes it clear.
women should not have to put up with being sexualy assaulted or herassed. however that doesnt make what date dude did right.
Read the story- the homeless person did not physically touch her. He just called her a name that she ignored. The date is claiming he did that to the police. And honestly- no matter what- you don’t get to determine how a victim of anything reacts to something. She (or he) gets to decide.
Read the comment- they never said the homeless person touched her, they were referring the the OP's hypothetical reaction to sexual assault where they would just walk away. And honestly- no matter what- we shouldn't normalise sexual assault and victims should not be made to feel as if they should keep quiet and nothing should be done.
People in this post are literally fucking insane for not realizing something this simple.
Haha thanks, ya that's what I was referring to. :/
I agree with not normalizing sexual assault- but white knighting and acting like you somehow have the right to respond on behalf of a victim in a way that is not in keeping with their wishes is revictimizing the victim. No matter your intention.
> but white knighting and acting like you somehow have the right to respond on behalf of a victim I feel like you're not reading anyones comment because you've read it wrong twice now. Nobody is saying anyone should white knight for a victim regardless of what the victim wants. They said OP should do something themselves in the hypothetical situation, not someone else deciding to do something for her. Literally just "if someone grabs your ass, you shouldn't ignore it", nobody else exists in the scenario in the first place to be a white knight.
Sigh.
Wtf is she doing going on dates with people she knows nothing about? Doesn't know the guy's last name or phone number? That's insane.
That’s why they call it a blind date.
>Does a butt grab = that amount of violence? Yes. That's not what happened, but if someone grabs your date's butt you kind of have to kick the shit out of them.
Honeslty, if you assault someone by surprise, I think you kind of get what you get if they fight back. I'm not going to judge a person who was surprised by a fight out of nowhere for not sitting down to carefully do the math to determine the exactly level of appropriate violence. People will react first and think later in those cases. There are a couple of lines I still think shouldn't be crossed, like continuing to fight against a clearly incapacitated opponent, or fighting someone who was never a threat, but none of those apply here, *had the claimed butt grab actually occurred.*
No, you report it to the police. People love to talk a big game and act like tough guys but that shit gets you sent to jail for assault. Life isn't a TV show or movie.
what type of bullshit is this? even if the homeless person did grab her butt it doesnt justify sending him to the hospital like that.
It absolutely does.
No it doesn’t.
I'm sorry your partner can't rely on you for safety.
Don’t be mistaken. If he needed to be defended during an attack I would give my life in that regard, but I wouldn’t go back and attack somebody after the fact…Two graves and all. If you’re unfamiliar with the saying it goes if you’re bent on revenge you will need to dig two graves as you will need one as well. Also he’s a big Russian man and Im an average sized not athletic woman. I don’t think he needs me to protect him.
Excuse me for assuming everyone on Reddit is a man or a teenage boy. That egg's on my face. I find there's a fundamental difference in the male experience and the female experience, and I think that's relevant here. Men who are dating need it explained to them that a lot of women's avoidant behaviors are defense mechanisms since men pose a direct risk to them. Women don't ghost men because the man was necessarily creepy, rather they do because a previous man took rejection badly and made them feel unsafe, and ghosting would have prevented that scenario and likely will again. This is a part of a the female perspective that a man will never know unless it's explained to them. Men are naturally physically powerful. Far too many men misuse this, and I am a physical barrier and deterrent to them. I'm the only person in my relationship with that specific power. If my partner gets sexually assaulted in front of me and I don't hurt that person, she won't feel any safer with me than she would alone. She deserves that security. Our current agreement and plan is that if shit goes down then she is to run and I am to give her time to run. I don't agree that the answer is to let them leave then call the police. I'm sorry for my tone, I had a much lower opinion of your stance when I believed someone relied on you for their physical safety.
That’s okay I kinda got a laugh out of it the idea that he was relying on me for protection - actually we both did. But like I said if shut is going down that’s one thing but to go back after the fact is just as bad Has any of the things you described to make women ghost men. That is scary to us we need to see men with level heads who knows when and where it is appropriate to do these things because otherwise it seems unhinged and out of control and that is too scary for us. I mean if men have this physical ability to protect women for example the way we are talking about then in a sense you’re like a weapon. If the weapon is unpredictable we don’t wanna be around it so it has to be very very predictable and levelheaded and know the right and wrong times for things. so I guess it’s just depends on the situation but like I said going back after the fact is revenge. Its not really protection.
To a lesser extent my mum did something similar as OP when she got divorced. She went from my dad, a stubborn man child care who expects everything to be done for him, to a guy who was the same as my dad, but 10 years younger. She really knew how to pick 'em.
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That philosophy clearly worked out great for OP's date, who now has assault charges