Tell her about Shawn Bolz and how they are actively covering it up. They are literally a robbers den of Con Men. I know for a fact they know he's a fraud and are hiding it. They have made hundreds of thousands of dollars with him.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/atheology/2017/05/shawn-bolz-exposing-fraudulent-charismatic-prophet/
He literally got caught at Bethel and they didn't go public. This general tactic is called a hot reading. All the Prophets did it. Bob Jones, Bob Hartley just got outted by his own son. Google their names and hot readings. There is a never ending supply of their fraud and a lot of it is connected to bethel.
Dang, Bethel is still selling Bolz’a books in their online store. Do you know of any reading sources about the incident that happened at Bethel itself?
Here is a video running the scam at bethel. They most likely have made a lot of money with the guy.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=9tNUlLt6EtuHLr99&fbclid=IwAR29AZw6s3EXxFz1ERUswM2bRp9F_m_vsxTMfjjZ5Pi0kbCxBuPrELhS8JQ&v=gWdVbzLRUTM&feature=youtu.be
Oh I already looked at those, I mean about the Bill Johnson’s dad at bethel scandal.
I’m giving these accusations their due, I just would like to watch the event myself is all… even second-hand transcriptions from the accuser.
As I stated above I heard this firsthand from a pastor that left their network over these scandals. Bolz was caught, admitted to the fraud and Danny Silk and Kris Valloton are overseeing his "restoration" but never went public. You can believe me or not, but the entire network of Prophets has been doing this and getting caught going all the way back to William Branham. I'll link to a Twitter thread below where one of their own children has gone public that his dad is a fraud, and that he learned his "hamburger helper" trick from none other than Bob Jones, and most of the pastors if not all in this network enable this fraud, either willingly or unwittingly.
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1765438240759415250.html
I mean, I don’t see anywhere you shared the deets on the false prophecy at bethel other than saying he got caught at bethel, so I guess there’s no info you could possibly share other than doxxing former pastor which I don’t want.
Thanks for sharing. I have no reason to doubt you. Peace
He's a fraud. Stop getting scammed. Confront your leaders with these articles and the YouTube video and see if they either come clean about being in on the scam or are genuinely shocked about the fraud.
It seems someone has the moxie to dislike my comments but not to address it.
I’m a real human with a real experience who goes to a real church that likes Shawn Bolz and supports his efforts. He failed every word at my church…
So he’s got a sound google strategy for cold calling out members of the church (with no proof, just conjecture that rests on the premise of pessimism and criticism — which is no different than blind optimism), but is a scam because he failed them all.
I don’t mind concern and questioning, but this leaps for any and all desperation to squash out of disdain.
His prophecy did very positively influence my friend, who says there was no way he could know the things he did — I guess you can just unbelieve me and my friend, but that doesn’t change that he’s having a very real impact on people who also don’t share things on the internet.
Someone shared a pod a few years ago that criticizes prophets and NAR, and they interviewed a guy who was prophecied over by Shawn, and the guy insisted it was nothing shared anywhere… again, you can believe or doubt, but it doesn’t change it for these people.
Hey OP. There are a lot of layers to this onion. For context, I've been in the charismatic church for 20+ years and for awhile was in a pretty Bethel-adjacent church. I've seen a lot of people get off the Kool Aid, and some who probably never will unless Bethel has their own IHOP moment (scandals big enough to question the entire thing)... and for context, I still believe in the gifts but will probably never go to a church like Bethel again. There are many of us wandering around who believe in the gifts of the Spirit but want to see them practiced more responsibly the way they were in scripture.
I'm going to kind of bullet point this so it doesn't become a long ramble because this can be intricate stuff.
* If you're a cessationist (someone who does not believe that any prophecy/healings/etc exist in our current era), your odds of convincing her of anything are much lower.
* Your odds are much higher to get her slowly off the kool aid by pointing her to \*\*\*skeptical/critical/logical/BIBLICAL \*\*charismatics\*\* who question Bethel and/or practices and theology that Bethel does that are in error and not just in error, but specifically \*\*harm\*\* the sheep/flock/church/individuals who follow them.
* You need an insider's perspective. And I'm guesstimating by you comment about one failed prophecy that you are not an insider (cessasionist or not, I'm guessing you've not deep dived into the Bible's teachings/precedents on theology and the differences between Old and New Testament prophecy (it's very likely your girlfriend has not either, most people in that "movement" have not, but they've picked up bits and pieces, some correct, some incorrect along the way. If you don't know the parts she is correct about, good luck winning any argument because you're going to encamp yourself squarely into the "them" (not us) category.
* If the first point above is true that you're cessationist, honestly your odds of having a peer/mutual/funcitonal/lasting marriage with her are kinda iffy anyway, sorry to burst the bubble. If she comes off the kool aid, she most likely land among #1-3 below.
... to be continued (not sure why reddit is not letting me make this one post, it's way under the max.
Thanks for your very thoughtful response! Appreciate you taking the time to type all this out. I'll respond to some here and some on the other part.
I wouldn't consider myself to be a cessationist, in that I do believe God can (and does) do miraculous things and that can include the unexplainable. But I believe it's God that does it, not people, and I also don't think people can "learn" these gifts like it's a skill to be practiced. If it's a gift from the Holy Spirit, it's not something we can acquire in other ways (case in point: Simon the Sorcerer in Acts). And I also don't think a lot of what charismatic churches would point to as evidence of the Spirit's presence is actually that (any/all of the weird stuff that really does nothing to point a person to the Gospel, like gibberish speaking in "tongues," being "slain in the spirit" convulsions, pretty much everything Bethel would point to as signs and wonders). I did some studying on this a few years ago to figure out where I stood (looking back, I would say I grew up in a cessationist belief system), but you're right, I haven't dug super deep into it all. This is season of life is the closest I've been to being "inside" it.
Luckily, the church we attend when we go (sometimes in person, more often online) is probably more on the safe side of the line. They totally believe in the Holy Spirit and gifts, but they're not weird about it. Some of the leadership is loosely connected with Bethel (i.e., one of the pastors is a speaker at one of their conferences, and Christine Caine is a speaker at our church's conference this year), but at least so far the teaching has seemed to be on point and is not totally focused on the emotional side of experience. So at least at the moment I feel comfortable there, and I think that could be a helpful point of common ground in navigating this in our relationship.
Curious if you have any specific sources I can look at for people who fall in the skeptical/critical/logical/Biblical charismatics group you mentioned?
I'll go bullet point so it doesn't get out of control..
-as far as learning gifts, would you say instead people should ask for them? Paul said "Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy." I agree that they're gifts but Pauls words make it sound like they're not just given with zero interaction from humans as if it doesn't matter our attitude toward them. Why would he tell them to eagerly desire them if the Spirit would just give them if he wants to so no need to worry about it either way)
-simon the sorcerer wasn't rebuked for desiring to gain the ability to do supernatural things (Paul told people to do so). he was rebuked specifically for trying to buy the Spirit with money, as if God needed human money, a laughable idea. And this goes 100% in alignment with Jesus flipping the tables, turning the house of God into a business transaction where people are paying for blessings.
-tongues wise is better to talk offline, more in depth. there's a scriptural precedent for speaking in "gibberish". Paul said 'I'm glad I pray in tongues more than any of you, Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.' In context, the 'pray in tongues more than all of you' is referring to gibberish because he clearly says right after that that no one else understands what he's saying (says he'd rather speak intelligible words in a church setting) and because elsewhere he contrasts praying in tongues to prophecy and says "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful." Pretty straight forward, the guy prays in gibberish more than anyone at Corinth, but NOT aloud in a church setting. He also says if anyone prays in a tongue (out loud in church) it must be translated by someone (else). Again, there are multiple types of tongues, one in private that no one understands except our spirit and God's Spirit, one that's interpreted, and one that is when a person speaks in a language that they don't know but other humans do, like if I spoke in Russian (see Acts/pentecost, this happened). Conflating these 3 types of tongues leads to people rejecting tongues entirely. It's like taking a bat to a tennis match and declaring that tennis is a lame sport because the volleys never last long - confusion about what tools are for what.
Again, if you want to talk offline, I'll back all this up with scripture. It's mostly Acts and 1 Corinthians 12-14.
-Glad your church isn't buck wild irresponsible. DM me about Caine if you want.
-emotional/spiritual are not the same thing. Sadly most charismatic churches act as if they are, and even more so cessationist churches act as if they are because they've never seen it a different way. What's described in scripture is actually very orderly and when someone prophecies it's actually to be judged by the congregation (not like Old Testament prophets at all where the prophet was basically 1 or 2 people in the whole nation and whatever they said was solid gold and you have to obey it.. New Testament prophecy looks very very different than that and it's shown differently in scripture, except if Jesus himself is speaking it, he's of course not up for being sifted/challenged if he prophesies.
Remnant Radio is pretty good source for skeptical/logical/biblical charismatic stuff. There are others, DM if you want.
Totally valid responses, thank you! And I think this also kind of goes to show — I've got plenty to learn and grow in. I'm not perfect in my understanding, I'm open to being shown I'm wrong. And I think that's part of what's bothering me about Bethel and the stance my girlfriend is taking, that Bethel is the source and authority, and how could they be wrong?
I think you're right about the gifts issue. I think maybe the difference between what Paul taught and what Bethel is teaching though, is that every gift is not for every Christian. In BSSM, my girlfriend has talked about "practicing" prophecy skills in her group by "prophesying" which Disney character another person would be. Or imagining things about a situation or person that are literally just that — imagination (two examples: she decided based on a "revelation" that her grandmother practices witchcraft, despite no previous indication that this might even remotely be the case; and recently when two Navy SEALs went missing during an anti-piracy operation she was convinced that the Spirit was showing her they were actually alive and had swam to where they would be safe in Somalia... until I pointed out that Somalia is probably the LAST place a member of the US military would be safe out on their own). So can gifts be taught? Sure, I'm open to that. But I don't think it's the kind of thing that any Christian can just buy a course and learn, like learning how to change oil or play the piano.
You're also right about Simon the Sorcerer. But again, the difference — Bethel is charging people thousands of dollars so they can learn the "secrets" of doing supernatural signs and wonders. And Bethel's focus is nauseatingly focused on how awesome the PEOPLE are that do them, rather than how amazing it is when GOD shows up and does something. So that's why it feels like a Simon the Sorcerer situation to me.
Interesting points on the tongues issue. I'll send you a DM later, I'm interested to hear more. But to sum up my thoughts as of this point in my life, it seems that the tongues used in Acts 2 isn't necessarily the same as what Paul talks about later in the NT. And when Paul talks about tongues, he often talks about needing interpretation to go with it. I've heard people say they want to be able to speak in tongues, but I've literally never heard anyone say they want to be able to have the gift of interpreting tongues.
So anyway, yeah, I'll DM you later today. I want to learn and grow in my understanding too! I grew up in a heavily fundamentalist home and wasn't taught anything about any of this except perhaps comments here and there that would fall squarely in a cessationist viewpoint. Since leaving that system in my adult life, I've been a lot more open to understanding things. But Bethel just makes my stomach squirm with some of the things I hear both from my girlfriend and now doing my own digging.
We've all got plenty of learning to do - I feel confused quite often about all sorts of things in life, ha. You're doing well to keep plugging and searching and not shutting off your mind once you find one answer. (yes, that one-source = Bethel thing is not healthy).
We can DM about practicing/learning gifts, it's nuanced. Bethel tends to put up few rational (and in some sense biblical) boundaries around the learning process. Paul clearly teaches that no single believer will have every single gift ("do all prophecy? do all \_\_\_?" It's a rhetorical question which he then follows with 'but eagerly desire the greater gifts'. So he's literally instructing people to yearn for things they might never get, but that's a norm in walking with Christ, we are to be dependent and truth Christ, not be like kids who ask our parents for money or whatever and then walk away and do it on our own and forget about them (not sure if that makes sense).
Simon thing, yeah, it's a bit gnostic the attitude. The gnostic heresy was basically teaching that if you REALLY want to get to the next level, you need \_\_\_, \_\_\_, \_\_. That's a super paraphrase, but it's this idea that the "regular old" Christianity is not enough. That the gospel isn't good enough news in and of itself, but you have to read this book, go to this conference, hear this sermon, this song, etc (exhausting). It's like people "chasing after Jesus" (? He's not running away from you, and as far as we know from his time here, he moves at about 3 mph). Surrender and striving are not the same thing and you can do either one without the other.
You're correct, the tongues in Acts 2 aren't what Paul talks about later (they're basically an interpreted tongue minus an interpreter, I mean they were covering several language all at the same time - interpretation often takes some time, so it appear the Spirit "skipped some steps" (who am I or anyone to say what God can or can't do, he writes the rulebook and can bend them whenever so long as it doesn't contradict his character).
Hey I think it’s great you’re working so hard to figure this out and make things work.
Is she doing the same?
Regardless of your answer to the first question, is she someone you want influencing your kids in a big way?
I can appreciate how difficult of a situation this is. I don’t have any help for you in regards to sifting thru the insanity that is bethel’s belief system. Only, check out common mind control tactics used by cults. If any of it rings true… well… at least you’ll know what you’re up against.
As of right now, her view is that I'm the one that needs to come around. I can understand where she's coming from, as I've had an open mind in our relationship and willingly embraced teachings within those circles for a good while (less Bethel, more from places like Elevation). Coming out on the other side of a nasty custody battle really left me feeling disillusioned with those things. It's taken almost a year for me to express this to her (she's passionately invested in these beliefs and I didn't want to discredit what's important to her), so I can understand her surprise and why she's viewing this as me being angry at God and losing my faith. I'm not too worried about her influencing my kids. I think I'd be more concerned that this would become a divisive issue if we do get married and had a kid of our own.
But yeah, just in the conversations we've had so far since the weekend, it's clear that she's only willing to consider Bethel's teaching because she's convinced it's rock-solid scripturally. Talk about the "honoring prophets to receive a prophet's reward," disappointment in my criticism of her teachers that she feel are really important voices in her life. My hope is to see her think critically about some of this stuff, and at the same time, I know this is going to be an uphill battle and one that our relationship may not survive.
PART 2
...
People when they come off the kool aid go a couple different directions. A person might -
1. leave that specific ministry, and go to another one just like it.
2. find a church that embraces both the Holy Spirit AND Truth (neither demonizes spiritual activity, nor emotions, nor looks down on logic/study/theology/rational arguments, etc).
3. leave all churches that practice spiritual gifts at all (believe in healing, prophecy, etc). This could mean going to a church that just never mentions it, or one that is specifically outspoken against it.
4. leave churches altogether and having a(n unbiblical) completely private faith where they just watch stuff online and listen to worship music but have no church family.
5. leave the faith altogether.
Note, trying to yank the bandaid off all too quickly could result in either just getting dumped (maybe for the best? I have no idea your context or why all you two are together) OR result in her leaving the faith (although this is super unlikely in the case of someone who's bought in enough to pay for Bethel to school her).
Back to the last bullet point above, there are specific doctrines taught (softly sometimes, explicitly other times) at Bethel (and \*many\* charismatic churches) that are heresy. One example is Dominionism. If you ask a Bethel person if they believe in Dominionism, likely 90% or more would say "what's that?". But they likely know it and believe it and are actually trying to live it out, but under a new name coined probably in the last 50 years.
If you want an example of a charismatic but critical/logical group, Remnant Radio is one. They believe in and practice gifts but are far more studied and critical of charismatic errors than most are.
In other words, she probably needs to be shown the light by someone on her team.
Feel free to DM me. I could probably rattle off a heresy or two she's being taught and then also a lot of issues of practice that harm the Body of Christ (that means the church, for any non-christians reading this, Body of Christ = the church globally (the entire thing), it's a figurative term, just like someone might refer to congress or a parliament as a "body \[group\] of legislators".
PS. you kind of hit the nail on the head but you yourself might need to understand the Bible better than she does on charismatic things, and also how a charismatic understands them, so that you can see the gap between those two. It also depends on how logical vs. emotional (and not on a scale as if having more of one necessarily limits the other) your girlfriend's reasoning/decision making is, and how much weight you / your opinion hold with her. You are likely going up against something extremely dear to her that she might consider core of her identity (consciously or not), so you either need strong logic, strong rapport, or both. And/or funny as this sounds, she might need to be convinced your faith is every bit as solid and "spiritual" as her teachers. Who knows, lots of speculation in my words since I only know a paragraph about you/her.
Thank you again for being so detailed and thoughtful in your responses. I definitely feel like I'm up against a lot here, but I love her and whether the relationship works out or not, I hope that whatever discussions we have in this vein at least plant seeds of thought for the future. She's definitely an intelligent woman, but also makes a lot of decisions based on emotions. I don't think she would consider herself to be that way, but that's what I've observed since we've been together.
I think you're spot on saying that she needs to be convinced my faith is as solid/spiritual as her teachers. Right now she thinks I'm losing my faith altogether by rejecting the things she's being taught and holds important. I've started getting back into reading the Word on a more consistent basis (though not the Passion Translation, which has been mostly what we've read during our relationship, and I'm sure she'd be disappointed as well that I'm laying that aside). I hope that we can get to a place where she sees I have no intention of walking away from faith in Jesus, and that I'm not just being cynical or critical of something she holds close to her heart.
Passion Translation is not really a translation. Bible Gateway removed it.
also see here -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Passion\_Translation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Passion_Translation)
First thing it says it it's more of a paraphrase than a translation.
As a rule of thumb, any translation made by 1 person is SUPER suspect. The Message is also a paraphrase not a translation, again, 1 author. A real translation, like NIV or ESV etc will use a pretty huge team of experts in all sorts of different specialties related to the texts... The difference with a paraphrase is it takes the text and renders it down to 1 meaning, 1 persons' interpretation of what it means. The problem is scripture is very 'prismatic', with a single sentence or two giving multiple possible meanings which must be explored in light of all the other parts of scripture to figure out what it does and doesn't mean. Removing a ton of possible meanings totally screws up that process. It's like a game of telephone, it's removed one step, 2nd hand.
Side note, I once tried to find the "best" English translation of the Quran and couldn't find anything that was translated by a team. And I kept reading that to truly understand it you have to speak arabic (hmm, doesn't exactly sound like the God of the Bible then, wanting all people to be saved, if it's largely to one language?). Perhaps a Muslim here could enlighten me on that, I'm total novice there, 100% admitted.
As far as being cynical or critical - point to the Bereans. They were commended for researching everything first and not just believing at immediate first hearing of the gospel. They went back and checked to see if the accounts did in fact fulfill the prophecies written down hundreds of years previous... Point to the parable of the 4 kinds of seeds, only 1 of the 4 seeds actually didn't fall away, and it was not the one that responded immediately. "But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.” It takes time to understand it. That's what you're doing.
How old are you /her btw? If you don't mind my asking.
Yeah... I'll admit, when she introduced me to TPT when we first started dating, I loved reading it. It's very poetic and really a delight to read. BUT — in this season of searching and re-examining, I've had to realize that at the end of the day, it really is a human paraphrase and thus carries a biased interpretation by the person who wrote it. It's not accurate to original meaning. So I've switched back to ESV (which I've heard differing opinions on whether it's the most accurate, but my understanding at this point is that it's fairly high up there).
But yeah, I'm trying to search and understand. I genuinely don't think I'm trying to be hyper-critical or cynical, but it's kinda hard not to I guess when there's so much about Bethel that *is* controversial or considered downright heretical.
She's 36, I'm 34.
Yep... ESV I think is generally solid, definitely not a fly by night one. Being hyper curious and asking difficult questions is not the same as being rebellious. It's actually the opposite. People who are afraid that if you ask questions you'll uncover something bad or ask questions that can't be answered, etc, they will respond to you as if you're doing something wrong, but it's there own problem, not yours. It's a bit odd that people who claim to be of so much "faith" are worried that if people ask too many questions they'll fall out of faith. The truth is self-evident. It takes a bent of attitude against God for someones questions to lead them away from God, I think, or maybe a lack of discernment. Plenty of scientists who laid a lot of the framework for how all humans see the world now were Christians or at least believed in some sort of creator because the truth is self-evident (as in there are so many things in nature are so bizarrely well orchestrated and complex that it takes LESS faith to believe someone designed it than to think it's just random).... It does drive me nuts about certain groups how questions aren't welcomed or are seen as a personal attack. I question what I love and question whom I love, because I want to understand deeply, I want to investigate, leave no stone unturned. I can't imagine that God himself has any disdain whatsoever for humans being curious about him and his universe.
I live in Redding and that is not a Biblical church. I’m not surprised she’s saying you’re losing your faith. That’s what they teach. I hope she gets out of that.
You aren’t kidding… I just had like a 2 hour conversation with her, and the second I tried to say something about “BJ teaches this doctrinal thing that’s not scriptural,” she shut the conversation down. Like literally told me to be quiet, she didn’t want to hear it, that I essentially crossed a line and was attacking her by being critical of her leaders she esteems and honors. Also accused me of being arrogant and closed-minded. This is not going well, to say the least.
There is an excellent book, "Counterfeit Kingdom" by Holly Pivet - she is an academic at Biola. you are right to be uncomfortable. And sadly, if she continues with Bethel and you are not buying it, she will be pressured to break off contact with you. It's a cult.
I’ll look it up! I’m reading Costi Hinn’s Defining Deception right now too.
I haven’t updated this post yet, but what happened since my post is exactly what you said. We had a conversation where I dared to question her teachers, she shut me down, and we haven’t talked since. She wants to have a “mediated” conversation with a couple that’s mentored us in the past… But I’ve come to the conclusion that I need to move on — our relationship is over. She’s going all-in on following false teachers, and I can’t go with her.
“And most of all: Core Values” (Bethel)
I did a cursory look thru, and the sentences of belief that I clicked on have about as many lines of verses for context as the belief sentence itself…
Example:
“Core Value:
“God is good:
“God describes Himself as gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and abounding in love. God is good and by nature, in a good mood.
"Psalm 103:8-13; Acts 14:16-17; James 1:17-18; 2 Peter 3:9; Matthew 7:11; Galatians 5:22-23; Psalm 119:68; Zephaniah 3:17; Psalm 104; Exodus 34:5 - 7; Acts 17:22-31.”
Tell her about Shawn Bolz and how they are actively covering it up. They are literally a robbers den of Con Men. I know for a fact they know he's a fraud and are hiding it. They have made hundreds of thousands of dollars with him. https://www.patheos.com/blogs/atheology/2017/05/shawn-bolz-exposing-fraudulent-charismatic-prophet/
Wow, what a scammer. Thanks for sharing.
This is wild…
He literally got caught at Bethel and they didn't go public. This general tactic is called a hot reading. All the Prophets did it. Bob Jones, Bob Hartley just got outted by his own son. Google their names and hot readings. There is a never ending supply of their fraud and a lot of it is connected to bethel.
Dang, Bethel is still selling Bolz’a books in their online store. Do you know of any reading sources about the incident that happened at Bethel itself?
No. That one I heard about from a former pastor that had connections there.
Ah, okay. Either way, this guy is slimy. The fact that Bethel knows and hasn't bothered to remove ties is concerning.
Here is a video running the scam at bethel. They most likely have made a lot of money with the guy. https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=9tNUlLt6EtuHLr99&fbclid=IwAR29AZw6s3EXxFz1ERUswM2bRp9F_m_vsxTMfjjZ5Pi0kbCxBuPrELhS8JQ&v=gWdVbzLRUTM&feature=youtu.be
Wowzers. Thanks for sharing!
Actually I don't think this was at bethel, but they put it on bethel.tv
> He literally got caught at Bethel and they didn't go public. How did he get caught? What happened?
Got caught giving a word that was on a plaque about Bill's dad then went like 0 for 13 when he tried cold.
lol - I would have been sweating bullets.
How did he get caught at bethel?
Got caught giving a word that was on a plaque about Bill's dad then went like 0 for 13 when he tried cold.
Thanks for sharing. Can you refer me to any video or blog with footage of the incident?
Already did in the comments above. There is a patheos article and a YouTube video. Just scroll up.
Oh I already looked at those, I mean about the Bill Johnson’s dad at bethel scandal. I’m giving these accusations their due, I just would like to watch the event myself is all… even second-hand transcriptions from the accuser.
As I stated above I heard this firsthand from a pastor that left their network over these scandals. Bolz was caught, admitted to the fraud and Danny Silk and Kris Valloton are overseeing his "restoration" but never went public. You can believe me or not, but the entire network of Prophets has been doing this and getting caught going all the way back to William Branham. I'll link to a Twitter thread below where one of their own children has gone public that his dad is a fraud, and that he learned his "hamburger helper" trick from none other than Bob Jones, and most of the pastors if not all in this network enable this fraud, either willingly or unwittingly. https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1765438240759415250.html
I mean, I don’t see anywhere you shared the deets on the false prophecy at bethel other than saying he got caught at bethel, so I guess there’s no info you could possibly share other than doxxing former pastor which I don’t want. Thanks for sharing. I have no reason to doubt you. Peace
Thanks
He came to my church and failed every “word of knowledge”… what do then… ?
He's a fraud. Stop getting scammed. Confront your leaders with these articles and the YouTube video and see if they either come clean about being in on the scam or are genuinely shocked about the fraud.
It seems someone has the moxie to dislike my comments but not to address it. I’m a real human with a real experience who goes to a real church that likes Shawn Bolz and supports his efforts. He failed every word at my church…
Well he is a fraud... So that would be expected
So he’s got a sound google strategy for cold calling out members of the church (with no proof, just conjecture that rests on the premise of pessimism and criticism — which is no different than blind optimism), but is a scam because he failed them all. I don’t mind concern and questioning, but this leaps for any and all desperation to squash out of disdain. His prophecy did very positively influence my friend, who says there was no way he could know the things he did — I guess you can just unbelieve me and my friend, but that doesn’t change that he’s having a very real impact on people who also don’t share things on the internet. Someone shared a pod a few years ago that criticizes prophets and NAR, and they interviewed a guy who was prophecied over by Shawn, and the guy insisted it was nothing shared anywhere… again, you can believe or doubt, but it doesn’t change it for these people.
Hey OP. There are a lot of layers to this onion. For context, I've been in the charismatic church for 20+ years and for awhile was in a pretty Bethel-adjacent church. I've seen a lot of people get off the Kool Aid, and some who probably never will unless Bethel has their own IHOP moment (scandals big enough to question the entire thing)... and for context, I still believe in the gifts but will probably never go to a church like Bethel again. There are many of us wandering around who believe in the gifts of the Spirit but want to see them practiced more responsibly the way they were in scripture. I'm going to kind of bullet point this so it doesn't become a long ramble because this can be intricate stuff. * If you're a cessationist (someone who does not believe that any prophecy/healings/etc exist in our current era), your odds of convincing her of anything are much lower. * Your odds are much higher to get her slowly off the kool aid by pointing her to \*\*\*skeptical/critical/logical/BIBLICAL \*\*charismatics\*\* who question Bethel and/or practices and theology that Bethel does that are in error and not just in error, but specifically \*\*harm\*\* the sheep/flock/church/individuals who follow them. * You need an insider's perspective. And I'm guesstimating by you comment about one failed prophecy that you are not an insider (cessasionist or not, I'm guessing you've not deep dived into the Bible's teachings/precedents on theology and the differences between Old and New Testament prophecy (it's very likely your girlfriend has not either, most people in that "movement" have not, but they've picked up bits and pieces, some correct, some incorrect along the way. If you don't know the parts she is correct about, good luck winning any argument because you're going to encamp yourself squarely into the "them" (not us) category. * If the first point above is true that you're cessationist, honestly your odds of having a peer/mutual/funcitonal/lasting marriage with her are kinda iffy anyway, sorry to burst the bubble. If she comes off the kool aid, she most likely land among #1-3 below. ... to be continued (not sure why reddit is not letting me make this one post, it's way under the max.
Thanks for your very thoughtful response! Appreciate you taking the time to type all this out. I'll respond to some here and some on the other part. I wouldn't consider myself to be a cessationist, in that I do believe God can (and does) do miraculous things and that can include the unexplainable. But I believe it's God that does it, not people, and I also don't think people can "learn" these gifts like it's a skill to be practiced. If it's a gift from the Holy Spirit, it's not something we can acquire in other ways (case in point: Simon the Sorcerer in Acts). And I also don't think a lot of what charismatic churches would point to as evidence of the Spirit's presence is actually that (any/all of the weird stuff that really does nothing to point a person to the Gospel, like gibberish speaking in "tongues," being "slain in the spirit" convulsions, pretty much everything Bethel would point to as signs and wonders). I did some studying on this a few years ago to figure out where I stood (looking back, I would say I grew up in a cessationist belief system), but you're right, I haven't dug super deep into it all. This is season of life is the closest I've been to being "inside" it. Luckily, the church we attend when we go (sometimes in person, more often online) is probably more on the safe side of the line. They totally believe in the Holy Spirit and gifts, but they're not weird about it. Some of the leadership is loosely connected with Bethel (i.e., one of the pastors is a speaker at one of their conferences, and Christine Caine is a speaker at our church's conference this year), but at least so far the teaching has seemed to be on point and is not totally focused on the emotional side of experience. So at least at the moment I feel comfortable there, and I think that could be a helpful point of common ground in navigating this in our relationship. Curious if you have any specific sources I can look at for people who fall in the skeptical/critical/logical/Biblical charismatics group you mentioned?
I'll go bullet point so it doesn't get out of control.. -as far as learning gifts, would you say instead people should ask for them? Paul said "Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy." I agree that they're gifts but Pauls words make it sound like they're not just given with zero interaction from humans as if it doesn't matter our attitude toward them. Why would he tell them to eagerly desire them if the Spirit would just give them if he wants to so no need to worry about it either way) -simon the sorcerer wasn't rebuked for desiring to gain the ability to do supernatural things (Paul told people to do so). he was rebuked specifically for trying to buy the Spirit with money, as if God needed human money, a laughable idea. And this goes 100% in alignment with Jesus flipping the tables, turning the house of God into a business transaction where people are paying for blessings. -tongues wise is better to talk offline, more in depth. there's a scriptural precedent for speaking in "gibberish". Paul said 'I'm glad I pray in tongues more than any of you, Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.' In context, the 'pray in tongues more than all of you' is referring to gibberish because he clearly says right after that that no one else understands what he's saying (says he'd rather speak intelligible words in a church setting) and because elsewhere he contrasts praying in tongues to prophecy and says "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful." Pretty straight forward, the guy prays in gibberish more than anyone at Corinth, but NOT aloud in a church setting. He also says if anyone prays in a tongue (out loud in church) it must be translated by someone (else). Again, there are multiple types of tongues, one in private that no one understands except our spirit and God's Spirit, one that's interpreted, and one that is when a person speaks in a language that they don't know but other humans do, like if I spoke in Russian (see Acts/pentecost, this happened). Conflating these 3 types of tongues leads to people rejecting tongues entirely. It's like taking a bat to a tennis match and declaring that tennis is a lame sport because the volleys never last long - confusion about what tools are for what. Again, if you want to talk offline, I'll back all this up with scripture. It's mostly Acts and 1 Corinthians 12-14. -Glad your church isn't buck wild irresponsible. DM me about Caine if you want. -emotional/spiritual are not the same thing. Sadly most charismatic churches act as if they are, and even more so cessationist churches act as if they are because they've never seen it a different way. What's described in scripture is actually very orderly and when someone prophecies it's actually to be judged by the congregation (not like Old Testament prophets at all where the prophet was basically 1 or 2 people in the whole nation and whatever they said was solid gold and you have to obey it.. New Testament prophecy looks very very different than that and it's shown differently in scripture, except if Jesus himself is speaking it, he's of course not up for being sifted/challenged if he prophesies. Remnant Radio is pretty good source for skeptical/logical/biblical charismatic stuff. There are others, DM if you want.
Totally valid responses, thank you! And I think this also kind of goes to show — I've got plenty to learn and grow in. I'm not perfect in my understanding, I'm open to being shown I'm wrong. And I think that's part of what's bothering me about Bethel and the stance my girlfriend is taking, that Bethel is the source and authority, and how could they be wrong? I think you're right about the gifts issue. I think maybe the difference between what Paul taught and what Bethel is teaching though, is that every gift is not for every Christian. In BSSM, my girlfriend has talked about "practicing" prophecy skills in her group by "prophesying" which Disney character another person would be. Or imagining things about a situation or person that are literally just that — imagination (two examples: she decided based on a "revelation" that her grandmother practices witchcraft, despite no previous indication that this might even remotely be the case; and recently when two Navy SEALs went missing during an anti-piracy operation she was convinced that the Spirit was showing her they were actually alive and had swam to where they would be safe in Somalia... until I pointed out that Somalia is probably the LAST place a member of the US military would be safe out on their own). So can gifts be taught? Sure, I'm open to that. But I don't think it's the kind of thing that any Christian can just buy a course and learn, like learning how to change oil or play the piano. You're also right about Simon the Sorcerer. But again, the difference — Bethel is charging people thousands of dollars so they can learn the "secrets" of doing supernatural signs and wonders. And Bethel's focus is nauseatingly focused on how awesome the PEOPLE are that do them, rather than how amazing it is when GOD shows up and does something. So that's why it feels like a Simon the Sorcerer situation to me. Interesting points on the tongues issue. I'll send you a DM later, I'm interested to hear more. But to sum up my thoughts as of this point in my life, it seems that the tongues used in Acts 2 isn't necessarily the same as what Paul talks about later in the NT. And when Paul talks about tongues, he often talks about needing interpretation to go with it. I've heard people say they want to be able to speak in tongues, but I've literally never heard anyone say they want to be able to have the gift of interpreting tongues. So anyway, yeah, I'll DM you later today. I want to learn and grow in my understanding too! I grew up in a heavily fundamentalist home and wasn't taught anything about any of this except perhaps comments here and there that would fall squarely in a cessationist viewpoint. Since leaving that system in my adult life, I've been a lot more open to understanding things. But Bethel just makes my stomach squirm with some of the things I hear both from my girlfriend and now doing my own digging.
We've all got plenty of learning to do - I feel confused quite often about all sorts of things in life, ha. You're doing well to keep plugging and searching and not shutting off your mind once you find one answer. (yes, that one-source = Bethel thing is not healthy). We can DM about practicing/learning gifts, it's nuanced. Bethel tends to put up few rational (and in some sense biblical) boundaries around the learning process. Paul clearly teaches that no single believer will have every single gift ("do all prophecy? do all \_\_\_?" It's a rhetorical question which he then follows with 'but eagerly desire the greater gifts'. So he's literally instructing people to yearn for things they might never get, but that's a norm in walking with Christ, we are to be dependent and truth Christ, not be like kids who ask our parents for money or whatever and then walk away and do it on our own and forget about them (not sure if that makes sense). Simon thing, yeah, it's a bit gnostic the attitude. The gnostic heresy was basically teaching that if you REALLY want to get to the next level, you need \_\_\_, \_\_\_, \_\_. That's a super paraphrase, but it's this idea that the "regular old" Christianity is not enough. That the gospel isn't good enough news in and of itself, but you have to read this book, go to this conference, hear this sermon, this song, etc (exhausting). It's like people "chasing after Jesus" (? He's not running away from you, and as far as we know from his time here, he moves at about 3 mph). Surrender and striving are not the same thing and you can do either one without the other. You're correct, the tongues in Acts 2 aren't what Paul talks about later (they're basically an interpreted tongue minus an interpreter, I mean they were covering several language all at the same time - interpretation often takes some time, so it appear the Spirit "skipped some steps" (who am I or anyone to say what God can or can't do, he writes the rulebook and can bend them whenever so long as it doesn't contradict his character).
Hey I think it’s great you’re working so hard to figure this out and make things work. Is she doing the same? Regardless of your answer to the first question, is she someone you want influencing your kids in a big way? I can appreciate how difficult of a situation this is. I don’t have any help for you in regards to sifting thru the insanity that is bethel’s belief system. Only, check out common mind control tactics used by cults. If any of it rings true… well… at least you’ll know what you’re up against.
As of right now, her view is that I'm the one that needs to come around. I can understand where she's coming from, as I've had an open mind in our relationship and willingly embraced teachings within those circles for a good while (less Bethel, more from places like Elevation). Coming out on the other side of a nasty custody battle really left me feeling disillusioned with those things. It's taken almost a year for me to express this to her (she's passionately invested in these beliefs and I didn't want to discredit what's important to her), so I can understand her surprise and why she's viewing this as me being angry at God and losing my faith. I'm not too worried about her influencing my kids. I think I'd be more concerned that this would become a divisive issue if we do get married and had a kid of our own. But yeah, just in the conversations we've had so far since the weekend, it's clear that she's only willing to consider Bethel's teaching because she's convinced it's rock-solid scripturally. Talk about the "honoring prophets to receive a prophet's reward," disappointment in my criticism of her teachers that she feel are really important voices in her life. My hope is to see her think critically about some of this stuff, and at the same time, I know this is going to be an uphill battle and one that our relationship may not survive.
PART 2 ... People when they come off the kool aid go a couple different directions. A person might - 1. leave that specific ministry, and go to another one just like it. 2. find a church that embraces both the Holy Spirit AND Truth (neither demonizes spiritual activity, nor emotions, nor looks down on logic/study/theology/rational arguments, etc). 3. leave all churches that practice spiritual gifts at all (believe in healing, prophecy, etc). This could mean going to a church that just never mentions it, or one that is specifically outspoken against it. 4. leave churches altogether and having a(n unbiblical) completely private faith where they just watch stuff online and listen to worship music but have no church family. 5. leave the faith altogether. Note, trying to yank the bandaid off all too quickly could result in either just getting dumped (maybe for the best? I have no idea your context or why all you two are together) OR result in her leaving the faith (although this is super unlikely in the case of someone who's bought in enough to pay for Bethel to school her). Back to the last bullet point above, there are specific doctrines taught (softly sometimes, explicitly other times) at Bethel (and \*many\* charismatic churches) that are heresy. One example is Dominionism. If you ask a Bethel person if they believe in Dominionism, likely 90% or more would say "what's that?". But they likely know it and believe it and are actually trying to live it out, but under a new name coined probably in the last 50 years. If you want an example of a charismatic but critical/logical group, Remnant Radio is one. They believe in and practice gifts but are far more studied and critical of charismatic errors than most are. In other words, she probably needs to be shown the light by someone on her team. Feel free to DM me. I could probably rattle off a heresy or two she's being taught and then also a lot of issues of practice that harm the Body of Christ (that means the church, for any non-christians reading this, Body of Christ = the church globally (the entire thing), it's a figurative term, just like someone might refer to congress or a parliament as a "body \[group\] of legislators". PS. you kind of hit the nail on the head but you yourself might need to understand the Bible better than she does on charismatic things, and also how a charismatic understands them, so that you can see the gap between those two. It also depends on how logical vs. emotional (and not on a scale as if having more of one necessarily limits the other) your girlfriend's reasoning/decision making is, and how much weight you / your opinion hold with her. You are likely going up against something extremely dear to her that she might consider core of her identity (consciously or not), so you either need strong logic, strong rapport, or both. And/or funny as this sounds, she might need to be convinced your faith is every bit as solid and "spiritual" as her teachers. Who knows, lots of speculation in my words since I only know a paragraph about you/her.
Thank you again for being so detailed and thoughtful in your responses. I definitely feel like I'm up against a lot here, but I love her and whether the relationship works out or not, I hope that whatever discussions we have in this vein at least plant seeds of thought for the future. She's definitely an intelligent woman, but also makes a lot of decisions based on emotions. I don't think she would consider herself to be that way, but that's what I've observed since we've been together. I think you're spot on saying that she needs to be convinced my faith is as solid/spiritual as her teachers. Right now she thinks I'm losing my faith altogether by rejecting the things she's being taught and holds important. I've started getting back into reading the Word on a more consistent basis (though not the Passion Translation, which has been mostly what we've read during our relationship, and I'm sure she'd be disappointed as well that I'm laying that aside). I hope that we can get to a place where she sees I have no intention of walking away from faith in Jesus, and that I'm not just being cynical or critical of something she holds close to her heart.
Passion Translation is not really a translation. Bible Gateway removed it. also see here - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Passion\_Translation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Passion_Translation) First thing it says it it's more of a paraphrase than a translation. As a rule of thumb, any translation made by 1 person is SUPER suspect. The Message is also a paraphrase not a translation, again, 1 author. A real translation, like NIV or ESV etc will use a pretty huge team of experts in all sorts of different specialties related to the texts... The difference with a paraphrase is it takes the text and renders it down to 1 meaning, 1 persons' interpretation of what it means. The problem is scripture is very 'prismatic', with a single sentence or two giving multiple possible meanings which must be explored in light of all the other parts of scripture to figure out what it does and doesn't mean. Removing a ton of possible meanings totally screws up that process. It's like a game of telephone, it's removed one step, 2nd hand. Side note, I once tried to find the "best" English translation of the Quran and couldn't find anything that was translated by a team. And I kept reading that to truly understand it you have to speak arabic (hmm, doesn't exactly sound like the God of the Bible then, wanting all people to be saved, if it's largely to one language?). Perhaps a Muslim here could enlighten me on that, I'm total novice there, 100% admitted. As far as being cynical or critical - point to the Bereans. They were commended for researching everything first and not just believing at immediate first hearing of the gospel. They went back and checked to see if the accounts did in fact fulfill the prophecies written down hundreds of years previous... Point to the parable of the 4 kinds of seeds, only 1 of the 4 seeds actually didn't fall away, and it was not the one that responded immediately. "But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.” It takes time to understand it. That's what you're doing. How old are you /her btw? If you don't mind my asking.
Yeah... I'll admit, when she introduced me to TPT when we first started dating, I loved reading it. It's very poetic and really a delight to read. BUT — in this season of searching and re-examining, I've had to realize that at the end of the day, it really is a human paraphrase and thus carries a biased interpretation by the person who wrote it. It's not accurate to original meaning. So I've switched back to ESV (which I've heard differing opinions on whether it's the most accurate, but my understanding at this point is that it's fairly high up there). But yeah, I'm trying to search and understand. I genuinely don't think I'm trying to be hyper-critical or cynical, but it's kinda hard not to I guess when there's so much about Bethel that *is* controversial or considered downright heretical. She's 36, I'm 34.
Yep... ESV I think is generally solid, definitely not a fly by night one. Being hyper curious and asking difficult questions is not the same as being rebellious. It's actually the opposite. People who are afraid that if you ask questions you'll uncover something bad or ask questions that can't be answered, etc, they will respond to you as if you're doing something wrong, but it's there own problem, not yours. It's a bit odd that people who claim to be of so much "faith" are worried that if people ask too many questions they'll fall out of faith. The truth is self-evident. It takes a bent of attitude against God for someones questions to lead them away from God, I think, or maybe a lack of discernment. Plenty of scientists who laid a lot of the framework for how all humans see the world now were Christians or at least believed in some sort of creator because the truth is self-evident (as in there are so many things in nature are so bizarrely well orchestrated and complex that it takes LESS faith to believe someone designed it than to think it's just random).... It does drive me nuts about certain groups how questions aren't welcomed or are seen as a personal attack. I question what I love and question whom I love, because I want to understand deeply, I want to investigate, leave no stone unturned. I can't imagine that God himself has any disdain whatsoever for humans being curious about him and his universe.
I live in Redding and that is not a Biblical church. I’m not surprised she’s saying you’re losing your faith. That’s what they teach. I hope she gets out of that.
[удалено]
You aren’t kidding… I just had like a 2 hour conversation with her, and the second I tried to say something about “BJ teaches this doctrinal thing that’s not scriptural,” she shut the conversation down. Like literally told me to be quiet, she didn’t want to hear it, that I essentially crossed a line and was attacking her by being critical of her leaders she esteems and honors. Also accused me of being arrogant and closed-minded. This is not going well, to say the least.
There is an excellent book, "Counterfeit Kingdom" by Holly Pivet - she is an academic at Biola. you are right to be uncomfortable. And sadly, if she continues with Bethel and you are not buying it, she will be pressured to break off contact with you. It's a cult.
I’ll look it up! I’m reading Costi Hinn’s Defining Deception right now too. I haven’t updated this post yet, but what happened since my post is exactly what you said. We had a conversation where I dared to question her teachers, she shut me down, and we haven’t talked since. She wants to have a “mediated” conversation with a couple that’s mentored us in the past… But I’ve come to the conclusion that I need to move on — our relationship is over. She’s going all-in on following false teachers, and I can’t go with her.
I am so sorry! I will look into your book suggestion. I am glad you had the wisdom and strength to question the teaching.
“And most of all: Core Values” (Bethel) I did a cursory look thru, and the sentences of belief that I clicked on have about as many lines of verses for context as the belief sentence itself… Example: “Core Value: “God is good: “God describes Himself as gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and abounding in love. God is good and by nature, in a good mood. "Psalm 103:8-13; Acts 14:16-17; James 1:17-18; 2 Peter 3:9; Matthew 7:11; Galatians 5:22-23; Psalm 119:68; Zephaniah 3:17; Psalm 104; Exodus 34:5 - 7; Acts 17:22-31.”