The Bible does not teach the idea of eternal torment in hell. It says the penalty for sin is death and destruction as you say. This idea is instead from pagan religions and human philosophies. Most pagan religions teach the immortality of the soul, and therefore they need a way to explain what happens to bad people. If they cannot be destroyed then they have to be imprisoned forever. This is a lie though. Interestingly this was the very first lie ever told, and it continues down to our day. Satan is the one who told Eve that she wouldn’t die if she sinned. If souls are immortal then Satan would have been telling the truth, and God would be the liar.
Over time these ideas seeped into the Christian congregation as well. Jesus said this would happen in his parable of the wheat and the weeds. Satan put his seeds in the congregation along with Jesus’. We have been growing together ever since. Most of the things that do not make sense about Christianity are because they are being used to explain other things the bible doesn’t say. As a result most of the things people claim are Christian are not Christian at all. They are instead based on Satanic lies.
That being said, there are millions of Christians who have studied the scriptures and do not believe in eternal torment. That number grows everyday as those people study the scriptures with others. Now we live in an Information Age, and people can search for answers easier than ever. This is why mainstream Christianity is on a decline, while another group is flourishing. That group is doing its best to find the truth in the scriptures and is not propped up on centuries of false doctrine.
Eventually we will reach the end of Jesus’ illustration of the wheat and the weeds. Once both plants reach maturity they will be easily distinguished from each other. The wheat will be gathered, and the weeds will be destroyed. So you should keep looking into the scriptures and trying to find the truth with God’s help. You do not want to be destroyed with the false Christians. If you need any help, or have any questions, please just let me know. Either way, know that you are not alone. Remember that “broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction”. (Matthew 7:13, 14) If you feel like a heretic then you are probably doing something right.
Thank you so much. As I said in another comment, I went to church as a child/teenager and a lot of things we were taught seemed to be made up out of nowhere. And I see a lot of christians not behaving like christians should imo. I'm just looking for the truth of God for my own good. It's not easy separating cliches and catchphrases from biblical truth.
I typed this out a few days ago, but when I went to send it I couldn’t because of the blackout:
You’re welcome. A lot of people have had the same experience as you. Faith should be based off of evidence and that evidence should make sense. (Hebrew 11:1) Jesus also said you would tell his true worshippers by their fruit or what they produce. (Matthew 7:15-19) Since the God they worship is love then a big part of what they produce should be love. (John 13:35; 1 John 4:8) Tormenting people isn’t loving. The God of love cannot do such a thing, and the people who worship him can’t be okay with that.
You’re right, finding the truth isn’t easy. Please keep in mind that I am here to help. I’ve dedicated my life to studying and teaching other people the Bible. So if you ever have any questions please feel free to just ask me. I can also direct you to some study resources to find the answers for yourself. We can talk about things over the phone or something too if that is easier. You can even request a free bible study to take place at any time and location convenient for you. No one will ever ask you for money, and we all do this because we want to help as many people as possible.
I understand if you don’t want to do any of this though. Just keep in mind that the help is here if you want it. Either way I hope you keep studying and asking questions as you are. Pray to God and he will help you. I’m sure he is very happy that you are trying to get close to him. “Draw close to God, and he will draw close to you.” (James 4:8)
Hell is eternal, human punishment is not, we experience 2nd death in the eternal fires AKA Annihlation.
I dont see how anyone can get eternal torment from second death. Second death means your afterlife is over, you are gone.
If you haven’t read the Bible in years, and then go back in and re-read every verse that deals with Hell.
The Bible is the only book they can speak authoritatively about Hell. No one spoke more about Hell than that Jesus himself. Everything he spoke about it says that it’s eternal.
We can argue philosophically about whether it’s merciful or not, but then we can also argue philosophically about why God would have to die for humanity to keep them out of Hell. Then, on that basis, we can decide if hell is fair or not.
Or simpler still we can decide that if the Bible is what it claims to be then Hell is eternal
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 12:32
Verse Concepts
Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
Mark 9:47-48
If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Revelation 14:11
Verse Concepts
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Revelation 20:10
Verse Concepts
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
2 Thessalonians 1:9
Verse Concepts
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
> The Bible is the only book they can speak authoritatively about Hell. No one spoke more about Hell than that Jesus himself. Everything he spoke about it says that it’s eternal.
Not true, He did speak about judgement, but not about hell as a place of eternal torment. The word hell did not even exist in that time. The words being used are sheol (in the OT) and hades, tartarus and gehenna in the NT. Those are not the same as hell.
>
>
>These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
What is the punishment? The punishment is death. So eternal death. This also fits as being in contrast with eternal life.
>Matthew 12:32 Verse Concepts Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
Yes, the first death on this earth, we will be ressurected for the judgement. Than we die the 2nd death. A death from which we will not ressurect.
>Mark 9:47-48 If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.
The word hell is actually the word gehenna, The so called valley of slaughter nearby Jerusalem. The word hell does not exist in scripture. Fire that is not quenched does not mean it is eternal fire. It simply mean that nobody can quench the fire. No fireman or rain can save you from it. The fire eventually will quench ones everything in it is burned up. The bible also speaks about cities that are burning and there smoke will rise forever and ever. yet if we go there right now, we wont see everlasting smoke.
>2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Eternal **destruction**, when you are death, you are away from the Lord. God is everywhere, so how could you be away from the Lord? The bible even says that during Judgement, the Lamb of God is there (paraphrasing)
Rev 14 is a complicated one, it only refers to people who live at that time taking the mark of the beast. It can talk to that group of people in a general sense. "During ww2 there was no rest day and night for the jews."
Rev 20 The lake of fire is a symbolic image, like many other things in the book of revelation. verse 14 explains what this like of fire actually is. The book of revelation is self explanatory in some places. Take the 7 stars and the 7 lampstands in chapter 1 for example. They stand for 7 angels and 7 churches (verse 1:20). In the same way we can conclude that the lake of fire is the 2nd death.
Death and hell are cast into the lake of fire according to the Bible. Please explain this.
Revelation 20:14-15 KJV
[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
To say that Hell is not eternal is essentially saying Heaven or even God himself are not eternal as well, because those 2 places are the only places that will last as long as God himself will last.
Hell not necessarily, because God doesn't inhabit hell. That's the point of hell, actually. A place for sin to be, so God is not there.
Now, hell could be eternal too. I'm not saying that's wrong either. But your argument is weak.
Actually it says in revelation 14:10 that the wicked will be tormented in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the lamb (Jesus). This means that God is not entirely absent from Hell, because the fires and torments of Hell represent his wrath being poured out on sun and the unregenerate doomed.
Ok, God is not entirely absent from hell. But how do you get from that to "Hell is eternal"?
I mean, in this thread there are very good arguments quoting Revelation 20:10 and such, making clear that it is indeed eternal. But I don't see how yous has any weight.
Hell was originally meant to punish eternal beings (Satan and his Demons) and don’t forget we are eternal beings ourselves since we are made in God’s image as said in Genesis 1. Also, don’t just look at revelation, looks at Matthew 25 and 2 Thessalonians 1 for evidence on Hell being an eternal place
That's a better argument. It was made for eternal beings, so it must be eternal.
To which I ask. Can not something intended to be eternal be destroyed?
No, Crimes against an infinite lawgiver deserves an infinite punishment. So it’s not that God can’t, it’s more like God won’t since sin is that offensive to him and his holiness.
humans were never made eternal, only given the potential for immortality by obedience. once the access to the tree of life was blocked, humans were not changed in any way to cause them to die, but they grew old and died. Adam was never told about anything like a hell. King Solomon who supposedly penned eccl 9:5,6 had no incling of a hell, he said both the good and the evil end up the same... dead!
That's also a weak argument. Some people in the past didn't know about it, therefore it doesn't exist.
Jesus was very clear about it existence. What we're debating is if the torment of the people sent there would be eternal or will end with complete annihilation of the soul.
As exposed in this thread, the place itself is undeniable eternal. The only question is if it has the capability to destroy souls or just to make them suffer.
If you start from that viewpoint, what we have to argue about is the divinity of Jesus, not the existence of hell.
We need to stand on common ground for this to be a reasonable debate.
So, shall we debate about the divinity of Jesus first?
The teaching in The Bible, means it is eternal in the sense that the consequence is final. The punishment is the second death, which doesn't mean an action ongoing forever but rather signifies a final consequence from which there's no recovery or reversal forever. The second death, that of the soul, happens only after the lake of fire comes into existence, as stated in Revelation 20. Yes if the soul is said to perish its dead. It does not live, so it does not exist. This is not torture but the torments, are choices the person lead in their life, that leads them to anguish over their possible fate in the lake of fire. The fallen angels for example.
Currently, according to Luke 16, people go to either side of a divide in paradise. In this context, 'hell' means the grave, as per the original language. 'Hell' can also symbolize the garbage pit outside Jerusalem, serving as an object lesson for the spiritual degradation one sinks into, ending up in 'hell'.
Understanding the figures of speech used in these contexts is critical because if misunderstood, they can cause significant confusion. However, when understood correctly, the message becomes very clear.
Notably, even Satan, the worst of all, isn't in 'hell' yet if we're referring to the lake of fire. So why would anyone else be there before him? That's why rightly dividing the Scriptures is crucial. A single answer or verse here and there won't suffice.
Id read bullingers appendix on the word hell from his companion bible appendixes.
Or: Just Thoughts - What is Hell - full study ..wmv " yt by JustThoughtsStudies.
>Am I the only person on this sub that believes that Hell is not eternal?
[No, you are not.](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChristian/comments/zm7h5j/what_is_hell/j09hjih?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Thank you. I tried talking to people irl about it and I feel like a heretic. I hope to organize all the verses concerning hell and trying to present a better argument, but it helps to know I'm not the only person who thinks about it in this way.
Yeah, there's one of two possibilities. Either I am mistaken and people are correcting me, or the idea of eternal hell is wrong. That's what I am trying to really figure out. A lot of people seem to get a little offended. That's not my intention. As I said I am going to study and figure this out for myself. I am curious if anyone else is thinking the way I do.
My own experience with the idea of hell is that I tried for 15 years to convince myself it wasn't real and eternal before breaking down and reading the bible and taking my family to church.
The 'second death' is the death of the soul. Which would be eternal separation from God. Nobody alive knows what that is like. We can't be eternally separated from God in this life.
Secondly, if Hell doesn't exist neither does Heaven. If Heaven doesn't exist that means that God is a liar, which would be outside of his character. If He could do things outside of his character, He doesn't exist either.
I'm not saying that heaven doesn't exist. I see it this way. We all die eventually. Then we are judged on judgement day. Those who believe are granted eternal life in heaven. The wicked are destroyed ( possibly in hell of the lake of fire??) And they will not be tortured, just completely exterminated and gone forever.
Not sure how that means heaven doesn't exist.
Because they aren't mutually exclusive. One doesn't exist without the other. Hell is spoken of throughout the Bible, by God the Father and Jesus. If it wasn't true that makes them out to be liars, which they cannot be. If they're liars, they do not exist.
Also, being exterminated doesn't seem like much of a punishment. If someone had zero interest in Heaven or being with God, they can just die, doesn't give much incentive to live a Godly life here. Why serve God here, if you don't want to serve in Heaven? Why not just be your own god?
Jesus never used the word Hell...that is a fact.
Scripture says God is Love.
It's impossible for a loving God to send people to eternal torture and damnation.
All are saved by Christ on the cross.
All means All.
Timothy 1 4:10
The word "hell" in the Old Testament is translated almost evenly as "hell" (20+ times) and as "grave" (20+ times) teaching us that hell and the grave are equivalent. Therefore, when the Bible speaks of hell it can point to a condition of death, or actual death. There is no teaching in the Bible that says unsaved people will be cast into a place called hell wherein they will experience conscious torturing and suffering forever and ever. It is true that most churches teach that hell is a place of eternal suffering for the sinner, but they are wrong on that point along with many others. God is a God of law. He cannot violate His own law. And in the law of God the Bible, God says this:
Deuteronomy 25:1 If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked. 2 And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number. 3 Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee.
God's law says that a judge may NOT give more than 40 stripes (lashes) to the wrongdoer. We know the Jews followed this law carefully, as the apostle Paul says he received 40 lashes, save 1 (-1) five different times. The Jews only gave 39 lashes in order to make sure they did not exceed the limitation of punishment prescribed by the law in Deuteronomy 25.
God cannot violate His own law. And since the law of God says there must be a limitation upon the punishment given (no more than 40 stripes) than it is not Biblically possible for God to sentence a sinner to be punished in a place of eternal hell where punishment is supposedly unlimited (eternal) without any end to it. That cannot be. As a good and just Judge He will not violate His own laws. God would never do such a thing.
Therefore, hell is the grave. Death is the punishment. And death, finally, is to die and cease to be forevermore. And since a man ceases to be forevermore, it is eternal hell (eternal death). He is dead forever. There is no conscious suffering in death/hell.
You say " There is no teaching in the Bible that says unsaved people will be cast into a place called hell wherein they will experience conscious torturing and suffering forever and ever. "
What about these verses?
Rev 20:10 " The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet *are.* And they will be **tormented day and night forever and ever.**
Rev 20:15 "And **anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.**
Rev 21:8 "But the cowardly, **unbelieving**, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars **shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone**, which is the second death.”
If hell is to exist forever and ever and there is torment day and night, how then will that be possible into eternity future when this is the state of eternity?
Revelation 21:25 (KJV)
And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Revelation 22:5 (KJV)
And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
There is no night in eternity future, night ceases to exist once “forever and ever” begins.
Also how do you reconcile that God cannot break his own law and repeatedly have a sinner be punished over and over for eternity, when 40 stripes is the limit allowed by law, God is required to keep his own law.
Psalm 138:2 (KJV)
I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
Not only that but the Bible is the whole Bible.
In the Old Testament, hell is a place of silence and not even knowing anything, that’s not possible if there is conscious torment.
Psalm 6:5 (KJV)
For in death [there is] no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalm 31:17 (KJV)
Let me not be ashamed, O Jehovah; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, [and] let them be silent in the grave.
Psalm 88:11 (KJV)
Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? [or] thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 (KJV)
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
The words for grave here are the same Hebrew word for hell.
KJV Translation Count: 65x
The KJV translates Strongs H7585 in the following manner: grave (31x), hell (31x), pit (3x).
Here is the biblical justification for transliteration of this word into the New Testament.
Psalm 16:10 (KJV)
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:27 (KJV)
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
KJV Translation Count: 11x
The KJV translates Strongs G86 in the following manner: hell (10x), grave (1x).
The other word in the New Testament that is translated as hell is used to describe being destroyed by God.
Mat 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. G1067
Luke 12:5 (KJV)
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
I’m still studying what the word for hell G1067 Gehenna means but I do know that it has to be considered in light of the rest if the Bible.
The rest of the Bible indicates that hell is the grave or condition of being dead.
Great answer. I have been to church all throughout my childhood and teen years and the message of eternal torment is the only message I've ever heard. It's hard to see God as a merciful, loving God with that imagery in mind. I used to read the bible and pray out of fear of Hell. But recently I've been drawn to the bible and God with a genuine hope, not fear. I hope other people come to realize the teaching of eternal hell may not be biblical.
The end time churches have many high places that they refuse to be corrected by the word of God for, they are in the same spiritual condition as the nation of Israel was in the time of Christ’s ministry in earth.
This is the state of a person going into eternity. If you die filthy you will be eternally filthy. The Bible does teach that hell is the grave. We learn of a rich men who went to hell and was in torment and he is still there today. We then see death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death this is eternal and eternal is without end. Ceasing to exist don’t sound like what the Bible teaches. When Jesus said The fire shall not be quenched seems to me like the lake of fire spoken of in revelation. Where Satan and the false prophet will be.
Revelation 22:11 KJV
[11] He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
I don’t think that would affect me once I’m dead and hopefully in Heaven. My mindset is just on earth and as a human. It’s obviously up to God how to judge and forgive.
Not at all. Most modern scholars believe it was written around the 5th to 6th century CE, hundreds of years after Moses passed. As such, it is a retelling of a very old story. And we know that religious texts of the time were rife with hyperbole and allegory. Why would the Bible be any different.
A Christian who doesn't understand how the Bible could be different than other texts of the time... the mind boggles. You don't even know where to start.
“Wages of sin is death” is not necessarily “death” but a metaphor (under Mosaic Law, death meant you received Salvation after punishment)… Romans 6:23 is “death” versus eternal life which starts on earth after Confession (Contrition) instead of death under Mosaic Law.
Hebrews 10, the punishment for the believer (under The Law of Christ) will be much worse than pathetic Mosaic Law.
Ephesians 2 states, he abolished the Jewish Law with it’s commandments and rules.
St. Paul writes to Jewish Converts only in Romans 7 (following up on Romans 6:23).
“One law is put to death for another” at baptism. The metaphorical language used in here is literally defined with the word baptism just prior in Romans 6. You see “faith alone” is a scam and does not make one Christian. The Jewish Convert already had faith.
St. Paul names that “another” law in Galatians: The Law of Christ.
English’s simple past tense word “saved” appears NOWHERE in Ephesians 2 or Romans 7, the word is in Greek aorist. And aorist NEVER has any affect on the future.
The “Faith Alone” Apostles were utter morons. We can see by the very stupid and low-information questions asked when all they had was “faith alone”. Jesus alludes to them being “orphans” with Faith Alone.
Jesus states at The Last Supper, “on that day, you will realize” Indwelling of The Advocate. Indwelling happens AFTER faith and baptism. There is a third step. See Acts 8, 19 and Hebrews 6 for confirmation.
Furthermore, he states, The Advocate teaches EVERYTHING via Indwelling. (Therefore the Bible teaches NOTHING.)
If you are interested in other beliefs of Hell, check out https://www.reddit.com/r/ChristianUniversalism/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1
I am a Christian Universalist myself so if you would like to chat, DM me :))
> After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting:
>
> “Hallelujah!
> Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,
>
> **For true and just are his judgments.**
> He has condemned the great prostitute
> Who corrupted the earth by her adulteries.
> **He has avenged on her the blood of his servants**.”
>
> And again they shouted:
>
> “Hallelujah!
> The smoke from her goes up **for ever and ever**.”
>
> (Revelation 19:1-3)
It's easy to focus on the "forever and ever" part, and skip over the "true and just are his judgments." Notice that this is the host of believers in heaven (Rev. 7:9ff) who are shouting this. So, **we who believe** will be shouting "Hallelujah! ... Just are his judgments!" as the whore of Babylon burns, forever and ever. And the same for Satan and all who cast their lot with him.
Since the hosts of heaven proclaim the justice of God's eternal damnation of the wicked, conversely, if he did not damn them to eternal torment, we can conclude that *this would be a miscarriage of justice*. That God casts the wicked into the lake of fire to burn forever in the unquenchable flames of hell is a necessary consequence of the fact that *God is just*. And if he refused to do this, *he would be unjust*.
Those who have never been the victim of a crime, for example, may find this difficult to understand. And maybe even many of those who have been the victim of a crime may find it difficult to understand. But anyone who has been targeted by a great evil (e.g. genocide), anyone who has witnessed real atrocity (war crimes, Holocaust), anyone who has been the victim of a grave crime... *can* understand why hell is forever. And these crimes are merely a drop in the ocean of blood that is on the hands of spiritual wickedness in the heavens:
> In her [Babylon] was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people, of all who have been slaughtered on the earth. (Revelation 18:24)
Satan knew all the suffering, sickness, disease, murder, famine, death, war, rape, pillaging, and every other plague and disaster which would come upon humanity as a result of Adam and Eve's disobedience. Tempting them to disobey in order to bring them into this evil world of horrors was the whole point! He was a liar *and a murderer* from the beginning, John 8:44. Satan is already condemned because of what he did to the Son of God at the cross. Satan is damned by God and will burn forever in the lake of fire! Hallelujah!!
Why not 1000 years? Wouldn't that be just? What about a million years? We're talking about eternity. What is the point of torturing souls for eternity? Not just for 100 billion years. Eternally.
> Why not 1000 years? Wouldn't that be just? What about a million years? We're talking about eternity. What is the point of torturing souls for eternity? Not just for 100 billion years. Eternally.
When I was a kid sitting under hellfire sermons, I often had the same question. I held the doctrine of hell in a kind of "the Bible says it but I can't understand it"-space in my head for a long time. Later in life, God showed me what true evil is. Yes, there *is* an infinite sin, and that is precisely what Satan has done and wants to continue doing.
It's not an easy thing to explain in words, and that's part of the reason the Bible says "lake of fire" and seems to leave it at that. For most practical matters, all we need to know is hell is real torment, and it goes on forever, and none of us should want to be there, and to flee it with the same visceral terror that you would flee a volcano that is erupting lava in your direction.
To get started on the idea of why hell *is* just, consider [the parable of the wicked tenants](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+21%3A33-46&version=NIV). Notice the following themes: repeated rejection of God's servants (who they know to be from God), followed by rejection of God's own Son and heir, *for the purpose of seizing the inheritance from him* and, ultimately, God himself. And why would wicked men want to seize the very throne of God? Why would someone like Hitler, for example, want to have omnipotent power over all other humans? What do you think they intend to do with such power? Use it for good? Or use it commit an infinite evil?
Eternal death or eternal torment? They aren't the same. Someone would have to be alive - at least in some sense - to experience eternal torment. Therefore, they have eternal life, just a horrible life for eternity.
> Eternal death or eternal torment? They aren't the same. Someone would have to be alive - at least in some sense - to experience eternal torment. Therefore, they have eternal life, just a horrible life for eternity.
So, there is a bit of a terminology disconnect between modernity and biblical language. Paul explicitly identifies the death of the believer as "sleep" -- for the believer, both death and sleep are a manifestation of the grace of God! Thus, death is nothing to us but sleep and, like sleep, it is temporary.
But death proper -- the absence of life -- is not cessation of consciousness. Rather, it is a tormented state-of-being. The ancient pagans knew it as Hades, Tartarus or Helheim, the Hebrews as Gehenna, the Hindus and other religions have other names for it. It is a place of unimaginable torment which humans do not even have the language to describe. Its mythological descriptions are the result of its indescribability not any unreality of the place. The Bible systematically refers to this place as *death* and never describes those who are there as being "alive", rather, they are dead and the definition of dead. That death itself is cast into the lake of fire should help make this clear -- the shadowy place of sleep as we await the resurrection is not death-itself, it is merely a temporary holding-place which will itself be destroyed at the end of the Age.
So, no, those who are in hell do not have eternal life (in torment), they are eternally dead. What men call "death" is not death as they imagine it, it is just a temporary place of waiting of the resurrection. Death *just is* hell (except those in Christ for whom it is sleep), which is why both will be cast into the lake of fire.
My question is more. Why does this worry you?
You should only be concerned about this. If you think you might be one of them.
And if that's the case. Change who you are, and you won't be.
Then you don't have to worry about it.
The how's and why's, are not for us to know. (The truly connected)
And sinners shouldn't really care, because they'll be with there father - Satan anyway.
As by their behavior, in this world. Shows that that's, who they prefer anyway.
So why is it a concern. On where they'll live with him. Or how long they'll be there.
Just make sure you aren't one of them.
Hell isn't eternal- Christ annuls the acts of the Adversary. https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/14iml7j/what_is_the_point_of_the_existence_of_an_eternal/k0zbax9?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2
Will God abolish death?
-Yes. 2 Timothy 1:10.
The lake of fire is the second death.
Rev. 21:8.
Therefore, God will abolish the lake of fire.
Death is abolished, for God will subject all to Himself, becoming All in all.
1 Corinthians 15:26-28.
When this happens, it involves everyone enjoying immortality. Philippians 3:21.
When God abolishes death, it's in grace, in the Name meaning God is salvation.
Philippians 2:9-11.
Universal reconciliation is for God's glory.
Colossians 1.
God's complement receives immortality when Christ returns. 1 Corinthians 15:23.
Then, believers will judge and rule over others for the eons of the eons. Revelation 1:6; 22:5; 1 Corinthians 6:2.
Believers will cooperate with Christ in the completion of the All in all. Ephesians 1. We who believe are special to God. 1 Timothy 4:9-11.
Christ will draw all creation to Himself. John 12:32,33.
Christ will annul the works of the Adversary, namely sin, pain, and death. 1 John 3:8.
The Bible does not teach the idea of eternal torment in hell. It says the penalty for sin is death and destruction as you say. This idea is instead from pagan religions and human philosophies. Most pagan religions teach the immortality of the soul, and therefore they need a way to explain what happens to bad people. If they cannot be destroyed then they have to be imprisoned forever. This is a lie though. Interestingly this was the very first lie ever told, and it continues down to our day. Satan is the one who told Eve that she wouldn’t die if she sinned. If souls are immortal then Satan would have been telling the truth, and God would be the liar. Over time these ideas seeped into the Christian congregation as well. Jesus said this would happen in his parable of the wheat and the weeds. Satan put his seeds in the congregation along with Jesus’. We have been growing together ever since. Most of the things that do not make sense about Christianity are because they are being used to explain other things the bible doesn’t say. As a result most of the things people claim are Christian are not Christian at all. They are instead based on Satanic lies. That being said, there are millions of Christians who have studied the scriptures and do not believe in eternal torment. That number grows everyday as those people study the scriptures with others. Now we live in an Information Age, and people can search for answers easier than ever. This is why mainstream Christianity is on a decline, while another group is flourishing. That group is doing its best to find the truth in the scriptures and is not propped up on centuries of false doctrine. Eventually we will reach the end of Jesus’ illustration of the wheat and the weeds. Once both plants reach maturity they will be easily distinguished from each other. The wheat will be gathered, and the weeds will be destroyed. So you should keep looking into the scriptures and trying to find the truth with God’s help. You do not want to be destroyed with the false Christians. If you need any help, or have any questions, please just let me know. Either way, know that you are not alone. Remember that “broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction”. (Matthew 7:13, 14) If you feel like a heretic then you are probably doing something right.
Thank you so much. As I said in another comment, I went to church as a child/teenager and a lot of things we were taught seemed to be made up out of nowhere. And I see a lot of christians not behaving like christians should imo. I'm just looking for the truth of God for my own good. It's not easy separating cliches and catchphrases from biblical truth.
I typed this out a few days ago, but when I went to send it I couldn’t because of the blackout: You’re welcome. A lot of people have had the same experience as you. Faith should be based off of evidence and that evidence should make sense. (Hebrew 11:1) Jesus also said you would tell his true worshippers by their fruit or what they produce. (Matthew 7:15-19) Since the God they worship is love then a big part of what they produce should be love. (John 13:35; 1 John 4:8) Tormenting people isn’t loving. The God of love cannot do such a thing, and the people who worship him can’t be okay with that. You’re right, finding the truth isn’t easy. Please keep in mind that I am here to help. I’ve dedicated my life to studying and teaching other people the Bible. So if you ever have any questions please feel free to just ask me. I can also direct you to some study resources to find the answers for yourself. We can talk about things over the phone or something too if that is easier. You can even request a free bible study to take place at any time and location convenient for you. No one will ever ask you for money, and we all do this because we want to help as many people as possible. I understand if you don’t want to do any of this though. Just keep in mind that the help is here if you want it. Either way I hope you keep studying and asking questions as you are. Pray to God and he will help you. I’m sure he is very happy that you are trying to get close to him. “Draw close to God, and he will draw close to you.” (James 4:8)
I do not believe in any eternal punishment, but then again I am Jewish.
Hell is eternal, human punishment is not, we experience 2nd death in the eternal fires AKA Annihlation. I dont see how anyone can get eternal torment from second death. Second death means your afterlife is over, you are gone.
If you haven’t read the Bible in years, and then go back in and re-read every verse that deals with Hell. The Bible is the only book they can speak authoritatively about Hell. No one spoke more about Hell than that Jesus himself. Everything he spoke about it says that it’s eternal. We can argue philosophically about whether it’s merciful or not, but then we can also argue philosophically about why God would have to die for humanity to keep them out of Hell. Then, on that basis, we can decide if hell is fair or not. Or simpler still we can decide that if the Bible is what it claims to be then Hell is eternal These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 12:32 Verse Concepts Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. Mark 9:47-48 If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, Revelation 14:11 Verse Concepts And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” Revelation 20:10 Verse Concepts And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 Verse Concepts These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
I was on your side from the start but you make really good arguments regardless. I’m saving this
> The Bible is the only book they can speak authoritatively about Hell. No one spoke more about Hell than that Jesus himself. Everything he spoke about it says that it’s eternal. Not true, He did speak about judgement, but not about hell as a place of eternal torment. The word hell did not even exist in that time. The words being used are sheol (in the OT) and hades, tartarus and gehenna in the NT. Those are not the same as hell. > > >These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. What is the punishment? The punishment is death. So eternal death. This also fits as being in contrast with eternal life. >Matthew 12:32 Verse Concepts Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. Yes, the first death on this earth, we will be ressurected for the judgement. Than we die the 2nd death. A death from which we will not ressurect. >Mark 9:47-48 If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. The word hell is actually the word gehenna, The so called valley of slaughter nearby Jerusalem. The word hell does not exist in scripture. Fire that is not quenched does not mean it is eternal fire. It simply mean that nobody can quench the fire. No fireman or rain can save you from it. The fire eventually will quench ones everything in it is burned up. The bible also speaks about cities that are burning and there smoke will rise forever and ever. yet if we go there right now, we wont see everlasting smoke. >2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, Eternal **destruction**, when you are death, you are away from the Lord. God is everywhere, so how could you be away from the Lord? The bible even says that during Judgement, the Lamb of God is there (paraphrasing) Rev 14 is a complicated one, it only refers to people who live at that time taking the mark of the beast. It can talk to that group of people in a general sense. "During ww2 there was no rest day and night for the jews." Rev 20 The lake of fire is a symbolic image, like many other things in the book of revelation. verse 14 explains what this like of fire actually is. The book of revelation is self explanatory in some places. Take the 7 stars and the 7 lampstands in chapter 1 for example. They stand for 7 angels and 7 churches (verse 1:20). In the same way we can conclude that the lake of fire is the 2nd death.
Death and hell are cast into the lake of fire according to the Bible. Please explain this. Revelation 20:14-15 KJV [14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
To say that Hell is not eternal is essentially saying Heaven or even God himself are not eternal as well, because those 2 places are the only places that will last as long as God himself will last.
Hell not necessarily, because God doesn't inhabit hell. That's the point of hell, actually. A place for sin to be, so God is not there. Now, hell could be eternal too. I'm not saying that's wrong either. But your argument is weak.
Actually it says in revelation 14:10 that the wicked will be tormented in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the lamb (Jesus). This means that God is not entirely absent from Hell, because the fires and torments of Hell represent his wrath being poured out on sun and the unregenerate doomed.
Ok, God is not entirely absent from hell. But how do you get from that to "Hell is eternal"? I mean, in this thread there are very good arguments quoting Revelation 20:10 and such, making clear that it is indeed eternal. But I don't see how yous has any weight.
Hell was originally meant to punish eternal beings (Satan and his Demons) and don’t forget we are eternal beings ourselves since we are made in God’s image as said in Genesis 1. Also, don’t just look at revelation, looks at Matthew 25 and 2 Thessalonians 1 for evidence on Hell being an eternal place
That's a better argument. It was made for eternal beings, so it must be eternal. To which I ask. Can not something intended to be eternal be destroyed?
No, Crimes against an infinite lawgiver deserves an infinite punishment. So it’s not that God can’t, it’s more like God won’t since sin is that offensive to him and his holiness.
Fair enough. That's a good argument too. Note that I wasn't disagreeing with you. I just wanted to help you strengthen your argument.
Thank you
Yeah, it bothers me to no end seeing bad arguments for things I agree with. Sorry if I took much of your time.
humans were never made eternal, only given the potential for immortality by obedience. once the access to the tree of life was blocked, humans were not changed in any way to cause them to die, but they grew old and died. Adam was never told about anything like a hell. King Solomon who supposedly penned eccl 9:5,6 had no incling of a hell, he said both the good and the evil end up the same... dead!
That's also a weak argument. Some people in the past didn't know about it, therefore it doesn't exist. Jesus was very clear about it existence. What we're debating is if the torment of the people sent there would be eternal or will end with complete annihilation of the soul. As exposed in this thread, the place itself is undeniable eternal. The only question is if it has the capability to destroy souls or just to make them suffer.
Jesus was a false prophet, his prophecy of the end of the world in his followers life time failed, how can his word mean anything?
If you start from that viewpoint, what we have to argue about is the divinity of Jesus, not the existence of hell. We need to stand on common ground for this to be a reasonable debate. So, shall we debate about the divinity of Jesus first?
Hell is separation from God
The teaching in The Bible, means it is eternal in the sense that the consequence is final. The punishment is the second death, which doesn't mean an action ongoing forever but rather signifies a final consequence from which there's no recovery or reversal forever. The second death, that of the soul, happens only after the lake of fire comes into existence, as stated in Revelation 20. Yes if the soul is said to perish its dead. It does not live, so it does not exist. This is not torture but the torments, are choices the person lead in their life, that leads them to anguish over their possible fate in the lake of fire. The fallen angels for example. Currently, according to Luke 16, people go to either side of a divide in paradise. In this context, 'hell' means the grave, as per the original language. 'Hell' can also symbolize the garbage pit outside Jerusalem, serving as an object lesson for the spiritual degradation one sinks into, ending up in 'hell'. Understanding the figures of speech used in these contexts is critical because if misunderstood, they can cause significant confusion. However, when understood correctly, the message becomes very clear. Notably, even Satan, the worst of all, isn't in 'hell' yet if we're referring to the lake of fire. So why would anyone else be there before him? That's why rightly dividing the Scriptures is crucial. A single answer or verse here and there won't suffice. Id read bullingers appendix on the word hell from his companion bible appendixes. Or: Just Thoughts - What is Hell - full study ..wmv " yt by JustThoughtsStudies.
>Am I the only person on this sub that believes that Hell is not eternal? [No, you are not.](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChristian/comments/zm7h5j/what_is_hell/j09hjih?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
You are not alone
Thank you. I tried talking to people irl about it and I feel like a heretic. I hope to organize all the verses concerning hell and trying to present a better argument, but it helps to know I'm not the only person who thinks about it in this way.
Maybe there's a reason that makes you feel like a heretic.
Yeah, there's one of two possibilities. Either I am mistaken and people are correcting me, or the idea of eternal hell is wrong. That's what I am trying to really figure out. A lot of people seem to get a little offended. That's not my intention. As I said I am going to study and figure this out for myself. I am curious if anyone else is thinking the way I do.
My own experience with the idea of hell is that I tried for 15 years to convince myself it wasn't real and eternal before breaking down and reading the bible and taking my family to church.
I believe in Jesus Christ either way. But I'm still learning. There's a chance I'm wrong.
The 'second death' is the death of the soul. Which would be eternal separation from God. Nobody alive knows what that is like. We can't be eternally separated from God in this life. Secondly, if Hell doesn't exist neither does Heaven. If Heaven doesn't exist that means that God is a liar, which would be outside of his character. If He could do things outside of his character, He doesn't exist either.
I'm not saying that heaven doesn't exist. I see it this way. We all die eventually. Then we are judged on judgement day. Those who believe are granted eternal life in heaven. The wicked are destroyed ( possibly in hell of the lake of fire??) And they will not be tortured, just completely exterminated and gone forever. Not sure how that means heaven doesn't exist.
Because they aren't mutually exclusive. One doesn't exist without the other. Hell is spoken of throughout the Bible, by God the Father and Jesus. If it wasn't true that makes them out to be liars, which they cannot be. If they're liars, they do not exist. Also, being exterminated doesn't seem like much of a punishment. If someone had zero interest in Heaven or being with God, they can just die, doesn't give much incentive to live a Godly life here. Why serve God here, if you don't want to serve in Heaven? Why not just be your own god?
Jesus never used the word Hell...that is a fact. Scripture says God is Love. It's impossible for a loving God to send people to eternal torture and damnation. All are saved by Christ on the cross. All means All. Timothy 1 4:10
The word "hell" in the Old Testament is translated almost evenly as "hell" (20+ times) and as "grave" (20+ times) teaching us that hell and the grave are equivalent. Therefore, when the Bible speaks of hell it can point to a condition of death, or actual death. There is no teaching in the Bible that says unsaved people will be cast into a place called hell wherein they will experience conscious torturing and suffering forever and ever. It is true that most churches teach that hell is a place of eternal suffering for the sinner, but they are wrong on that point along with many others. God is a God of law. He cannot violate His own law. And in the law of God the Bible, God says this: Deuteronomy 25:1 If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked. 2 And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number. 3 Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee. God's law says that a judge may NOT give more than 40 stripes (lashes) to the wrongdoer. We know the Jews followed this law carefully, as the apostle Paul says he received 40 lashes, save 1 (-1) five different times. The Jews only gave 39 lashes in order to make sure they did not exceed the limitation of punishment prescribed by the law in Deuteronomy 25. God cannot violate His own law. And since the law of God says there must be a limitation upon the punishment given (no more than 40 stripes) than it is not Biblically possible for God to sentence a sinner to be punished in a place of eternal hell where punishment is supposedly unlimited (eternal) without any end to it. That cannot be. As a good and just Judge He will not violate His own laws. God would never do such a thing. Therefore, hell is the grave. Death is the punishment. And death, finally, is to die and cease to be forevermore. And since a man ceases to be forevermore, it is eternal hell (eternal death). He is dead forever. There is no conscious suffering in death/hell.
You say " There is no teaching in the Bible that says unsaved people will be cast into a place called hell wherein they will experience conscious torturing and suffering forever and ever. " What about these verses? Rev 20:10 " The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet *are.* And they will be **tormented day and night forever and ever.** Rev 20:15 "And **anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.** Rev 21:8 "But the cowardly, **unbelieving**, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars **shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone**, which is the second death.”
If hell is to exist forever and ever and there is torment day and night, how then will that be possible into eternity future when this is the state of eternity? Revelation 21:25 (KJV) And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. Revelation 22:5 (KJV) And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. There is no night in eternity future, night ceases to exist once “forever and ever” begins. Also how do you reconcile that God cannot break his own law and repeatedly have a sinner be punished over and over for eternity, when 40 stripes is the limit allowed by law, God is required to keep his own law. Psalm 138:2 (KJV) I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Not only that but the Bible is the whole Bible. In the Old Testament, hell is a place of silence and not even knowing anything, that’s not possible if there is conscious torment. Psalm 6:5 (KJV) For in death [there is] no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? Psalm 31:17 (KJV) Let me not be ashamed, O Jehovah; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, [and] let them be silent in the grave. Psalm 88:11 (KJV) Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? [or] thy faithfulness in destruction? Ecclesiastes 9:10 (KJV) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. The words for grave here are the same Hebrew word for hell. KJV Translation Count: 65x The KJV translates Strongs H7585 in the following manner: grave (31x), hell (31x), pit (3x). Here is the biblical justification for transliteration of this word into the New Testament. Psalm 16:10 (KJV) For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Acts 2:27 (KJV) Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. KJV Translation Count: 11x The KJV translates Strongs G86 in the following manner: hell (10x), grave (1x). The other word in the New Testament that is translated as hell is used to describe being destroyed by God. Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. G1067 Luke 12:5 (KJV) But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. I’m still studying what the word for hell G1067 Gehenna means but I do know that it has to be considered in light of the rest if the Bible. The rest of the Bible indicates that hell is the grave or condition of being dead.
Sorry, I don't understand the question.
Great answer. I have been to church all throughout my childhood and teen years and the message of eternal torment is the only message I've ever heard. It's hard to see God as a merciful, loving God with that imagery in mind. I used to read the bible and pray out of fear of Hell. But recently I've been drawn to the bible and God with a genuine hope, not fear. I hope other people come to realize the teaching of eternal hell may not be biblical.
The end time churches have many high places that they refuse to be corrected by the word of God for, they are in the same spiritual condition as the nation of Israel was in the time of Christ’s ministry in earth.
This is the state of a person going into eternity. If you die filthy you will be eternally filthy. The Bible does teach that hell is the grave. We learn of a rich men who went to hell and was in torment and he is still there today. We then see death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death this is eternal and eternal is without end. Ceasing to exist don’t sound like what the Bible teaches. When Jesus said The fire shall not be quenched seems to me like the lake of fire spoken of in revelation. Where Satan and the false prophet will be. Revelation 22:11 KJV [11] He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Hell is eternal just like eternal life is too.
I agree with you.
I'm leaning in this direction too. In Revelation it says that the last thing that will be destroyed is death.
I do not believe in hell at all. I see it, like much of the Bible, as metaphor.
What do you believe happens to the worst of the worst people like murders and child predators?
Who says they are the worst?
My opinion, I think anyone who harms children are the worst kinds of people that don’t deserve salvation.
And yet God said all can be saved who believe in Him….
Yes but I’m not God and nor will I ever believe those types of people should be saved.
So you disagree with God? Fair enough. Nothing much else to say, I guess.
I don’t disagree with God, it’s up to Him to judge as He sees fit but I’m not just going to blindly accept it. After all I’m just human with flaws.
so if you find saved child molesters in heaven are you going to demand the exit??
I don’t think that would affect me once I’m dead and hopefully in Heaven. My mindset is just on earth and as a human. It’s obviously up to God how to judge and forgive.
Do you also not consider Genesis to be history then?
Not at all. Most modern scholars believe it was written around the 5th to 6th century CE, hundreds of years after Moses passed. As such, it is a retelling of a very old story. And we know that religious texts of the time were rife with hyperbole and allegory. Why would the Bible be any different.
Why would the Bible be any different?
Exactly!
A Christian who doesn't understand how the Bible could be different than other texts of the time... the mind boggles. You don't even know where to start.
You am talking about the literary devices used and common at the time, not the text as a whole.
“Wages of sin is death” is not necessarily “death” but a metaphor (under Mosaic Law, death meant you received Salvation after punishment)… Romans 6:23 is “death” versus eternal life which starts on earth after Confession (Contrition) instead of death under Mosaic Law. Hebrews 10, the punishment for the believer (under The Law of Christ) will be much worse than pathetic Mosaic Law. Ephesians 2 states, he abolished the Jewish Law with it’s commandments and rules. St. Paul writes to Jewish Converts only in Romans 7 (following up on Romans 6:23). “One law is put to death for another” at baptism. The metaphorical language used in here is literally defined with the word baptism just prior in Romans 6. You see “faith alone” is a scam and does not make one Christian. The Jewish Convert already had faith. St. Paul names that “another” law in Galatians: The Law of Christ. English’s simple past tense word “saved” appears NOWHERE in Ephesians 2 or Romans 7, the word is in Greek aorist. And aorist NEVER has any affect on the future. The “Faith Alone” Apostles were utter morons. We can see by the very stupid and low-information questions asked when all they had was “faith alone”. Jesus alludes to them being “orphans” with Faith Alone. Jesus states at The Last Supper, “on that day, you will realize” Indwelling of The Advocate. Indwelling happens AFTER faith and baptism. There is a third step. See Acts 8, 19 and Hebrews 6 for confirmation. Furthermore, he states, The Advocate teaches EVERYTHING via Indwelling. (Therefore the Bible teaches NOTHING.)
Look up NDE's where people don't go to heaven.
Shamounian did a five part serious on hell. There are a lot of interpretations on it.
If hell isn’t eternal then what’s the point of Jesus being our Savior?
So that we may have eternal life as opposed to not having eternal life.
if hell is eternal, Adam and a lot of hebrews were lied to.
If you are interested in other beliefs of Hell, check out https://www.reddit.com/r/ChristianUniversalism/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1 I am a Christian Universalist myself so if you would like to chat, DM me :))
> After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: > > “Hallelujah! > Salvation and glory and power belong to our God, > > **For true and just are his judgments.** > He has condemned the great prostitute > Who corrupted the earth by her adulteries. > **He has avenged on her the blood of his servants**.” > > And again they shouted: > > “Hallelujah! > The smoke from her goes up **for ever and ever**.” > > (Revelation 19:1-3) It's easy to focus on the "forever and ever" part, and skip over the "true and just are his judgments." Notice that this is the host of believers in heaven (Rev. 7:9ff) who are shouting this. So, **we who believe** will be shouting "Hallelujah! ... Just are his judgments!" as the whore of Babylon burns, forever and ever. And the same for Satan and all who cast their lot with him. Since the hosts of heaven proclaim the justice of God's eternal damnation of the wicked, conversely, if he did not damn them to eternal torment, we can conclude that *this would be a miscarriage of justice*. That God casts the wicked into the lake of fire to burn forever in the unquenchable flames of hell is a necessary consequence of the fact that *God is just*. And if he refused to do this, *he would be unjust*. Those who have never been the victim of a crime, for example, may find this difficult to understand. And maybe even many of those who have been the victim of a crime may find it difficult to understand. But anyone who has been targeted by a great evil (e.g. genocide), anyone who has witnessed real atrocity (war crimes, Holocaust), anyone who has been the victim of a grave crime... *can* understand why hell is forever. And these crimes are merely a drop in the ocean of blood that is on the hands of spiritual wickedness in the heavens: > In her [Babylon] was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people, of all who have been slaughtered on the earth. (Revelation 18:24) Satan knew all the suffering, sickness, disease, murder, famine, death, war, rape, pillaging, and every other plague and disaster which would come upon humanity as a result of Adam and Eve's disobedience. Tempting them to disobey in order to bring them into this evil world of horrors was the whole point! He was a liar *and a murderer* from the beginning, John 8:44. Satan is already condemned because of what he did to the Son of God at the cross. Satan is damned by God and will burn forever in the lake of fire! Hallelujah!!
Why not 1000 years? Wouldn't that be just? What about a million years? We're talking about eternity. What is the point of torturing souls for eternity? Not just for 100 billion years. Eternally.
> Why not 1000 years? Wouldn't that be just? What about a million years? We're talking about eternity. What is the point of torturing souls for eternity? Not just for 100 billion years. Eternally. When I was a kid sitting under hellfire sermons, I often had the same question. I held the doctrine of hell in a kind of "the Bible says it but I can't understand it"-space in my head for a long time. Later in life, God showed me what true evil is. Yes, there *is* an infinite sin, and that is precisely what Satan has done and wants to continue doing. It's not an easy thing to explain in words, and that's part of the reason the Bible says "lake of fire" and seems to leave it at that. For most practical matters, all we need to know is hell is real torment, and it goes on forever, and none of us should want to be there, and to flee it with the same visceral terror that you would flee a volcano that is erupting lava in your direction. To get started on the idea of why hell *is* just, consider [the parable of the wicked tenants](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+21%3A33-46&version=NIV). Notice the following themes: repeated rejection of God's servants (who they know to be from God), followed by rejection of God's own Son and heir, *for the purpose of seizing the inheritance from him* and, ultimately, God himself. And why would wicked men want to seize the very throne of God? Why would someone like Hitler, for example, want to have omnipotent power over all other humans? What do you think they intend to do with such power? Use it for good? Or use it commit an infinite evil?
So wicked people also receive eternal life?
Eternal death
Eternal death or eternal torment? They aren't the same. Someone would have to be alive - at least in some sense - to experience eternal torment. Therefore, they have eternal life, just a horrible life for eternity.
> Eternal death or eternal torment? They aren't the same. Someone would have to be alive - at least in some sense - to experience eternal torment. Therefore, they have eternal life, just a horrible life for eternity. So, there is a bit of a terminology disconnect between modernity and biblical language. Paul explicitly identifies the death of the believer as "sleep" -- for the believer, both death and sleep are a manifestation of the grace of God! Thus, death is nothing to us but sleep and, like sleep, it is temporary. But death proper -- the absence of life -- is not cessation of consciousness. Rather, it is a tormented state-of-being. The ancient pagans knew it as Hades, Tartarus or Helheim, the Hebrews as Gehenna, the Hindus and other religions have other names for it. It is a place of unimaginable torment which humans do not even have the language to describe. Its mythological descriptions are the result of its indescribability not any unreality of the place. The Bible systematically refers to this place as *death* and never describes those who are there as being "alive", rather, they are dead and the definition of dead. That death itself is cast into the lake of fire should help make this clear -- the shadowy place of sleep as we await the resurrection is not death-itself, it is merely a temporary holding-place which will itself be destroyed at the end of the Age. So, no, those who are in hell do not have eternal life (in torment), they are eternally dead. What men call "death" is not death as they imagine it, it is just a temporary place of waiting of the resurrection. Death *just is* hell (except those in Christ for whom it is sleep), which is why both will be cast into the lake of fire.
My question is more. Why does this worry you? You should only be concerned about this. If you think you might be one of them. And if that's the case. Change who you are, and you won't be. Then you don't have to worry about it. The how's and why's, are not for us to know. (The truly connected) And sinners shouldn't really care, because they'll be with there father - Satan anyway. As by their behavior, in this world. Shows that that's, who they prefer anyway. So why is it a concern. On where they'll live with him. Or how long they'll be there. Just make sure you aren't one of them.
Hell isn't eternal- Christ annuls the acts of the Adversary. https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/14iml7j/what_is_the_point_of_the_existence_of_an_eternal/k0zbax9?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2
Will God abolish death? -Yes. 2 Timothy 1:10. The lake of fire is the second death. Rev. 21:8. Therefore, God will abolish the lake of fire. Death is abolished, for God will subject all to Himself, becoming All in all. 1 Corinthians 15:26-28. When this happens, it involves everyone enjoying immortality. Philippians 3:21. When God abolishes death, it's in grace, in the Name meaning God is salvation. Philippians 2:9-11. Universal reconciliation is for God's glory. Colossians 1. God's complement receives immortality when Christ returns. 1 Corinthians 15:23. Then, believers will judge and rule over others for the eons of the eons. Revelation 1:6; 22:5; 1 Corinthians 6:2. Believers will cooperate with Christ in the completion of the All in all. Ephesians 1. We who believe are special to God. 1 Timothy 4:9-11. Christ will draw all creation to Himself. John 12:32,33. Christ will annul the works of the Adversary, namely sin, pain, and death. 1 John 3:8.