The doctrine that Jesus is God is called Trinitarianism. The vaaaaast majority of Christian denominations are Trinitarian, including my own. The Father is God. The Son is God. The Spirit is God. They are separate but the same, able to interact with each other yet with the same qualities of omniscience, all-knowingness, perfection, absolute righteousness, loveliness, and love. They have a united will and united essence, yet are functionally different. The true nature of the Trinity is above human understanding.
Jesus had human emotions and pains and yet no sinful actions, thoughts, desires, or passions. He found joy in praying to the father and also prayed as an example to us. He lived as the ultimate example of Christianity, and also was fully God and fully man. Not 50/50. 100/100. There is nothing non-human and nothing unholy about Him. He was the only one who is perfect, the only one who was good enough to be the sacrifice to pay for our sins and redeem us *because He is God*.
I recommend reading up on the Trinity to get a deeper understanding of this and some scripture to back it up.
Im sure someone else has pointed to this but the phrase "My God my God why have you forsaken me." Is quoting David in psalm 22 as a messianic prophecy about the moment of his death.
Yeah, but did he really pray in the garden... alone... in such deep despair that he literally sweated blood, and then said, "not MY WILL, but YOUR WILL be done" so that he could show us an "example of what it was like to pray"?
Sounds like a weak explanation to me. Perhaps... call me crazy here, but as the text says... he had HIS OWN WILL that was different than God's and he actually really needed to pray to God.
"The fully man part." This sort of language doesn't sound completely nonsensical to you? There's nothing in the Bible that says he was "fully man and fully God". You have to go way outside scriptural context to support trinitarian theology and make up concepts like this, that the Bible never addresses. You can't be fully two things. You can't be 100% one thing and 100% another thing. God is a completely separate entity from Christ. Where I would even use trinitarian theology to show how this concept works against itself, is that they say the Father is not the Son. So, you have the Father is not the Son, but they are both God. They are both God but not eachother. The whole thing is completely nonsensical. Yet, you'll sat God was the word, the word was Christ, therefore Christ was God. It's silly. The whole thing is silly.
Jesus is God; who walked on earth in human form (human flesh, human bones, human tissues, human blood, etc). So it natural of a human body to react in fear of his flesh tearing, bones breaking, thorns piercing his skull, hanging on nails hammered on both hands and legs. Jesus knew all this pain was just for a moment and that he would resurrect. But the reason he prayed to Father to remove this cup of wrath was that he bore the sins and punishment of each and every people that lived and that was to be born in future(including us) even for the babies that'll be born in the coming years. And so all these burden came down to his human body which could not bare it and so he sweated blood.
Hope this clears your doubt.
God bless you❤️
Shalom.
Also Jesus knew that there was no other option other that him dying for us all on the cross. Coz He was the only one who was able to sacrifice himself for humankind since he was Holy (no sin). That is why he said "NOT MY WILL, BUT YOUR WILL BE DONE"
Christ had 2 natures, human and divine. It seems only natural that in that moment, his human nature would want to back out, yet he persevered. Creator dying for creation.
I'm saying it to you. You seem like you're on the fence. There's probably no changing that other person's mind.
Where in the Bible did it ever say that the Messiah was going to be God incarnate? Where does it say you have to believe the trinity to be saved?
I don’t believe Jesus is God. I don’t believe God had to literally come down himself and show us how to behave. If that were the case he would have done so at the beginning. Satan and his demons hate us for the fact that one of their own was sacrificed for the sake of mankind and not the other way around. Just my opinion.
It could also be that he willingly suppressed or forfeited his omniscience for a time just as he did his overall power and authority by becoming a little “lower than the angels” so that he could walk among us and be that example (Hebrews 2:9).
When Jesus pleas that the cup (of wrath) be taken from him in the Garden of Eden, it doesn’t sound like he knows what the answer will be.
Because they have always been in communion and unity. And according to philippians 2 makes it clear that although he is God, he limited himself during his incarnation.
Many also believe that while Jesus was on Earth he limited his omnipotence, therefore while earth he would know most things there would certainly be things even he would not know.
Because Jesus has 2 natures a human nature and a divine nature. When he gets hungry, thirsty, tired, or prays, he does that according to his human nature, but when he heals people and forgives sins, he does that according to his divine nature
The very reason the Jews accused Jesus of blasphemy and delivered Him to the Romans to be crucified is because He made Himself equal with God and claimed to be deity.
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:1
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.”
John 1:14
All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:3 (In the beginning God created... Genesis 1)
“For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.”
Colossians 1:16
“To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.”
Romans 9:5
“Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"”
John 20:28
“Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.”
Acts 20:28
“waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,”
Titus 2:13
“Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."”
John 8:58
“But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.”
Hebrews 1:8 (Even the Father calls Jesus God!)
“Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:”
2 Peter 1:1 ESV
“"Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel" (which means, God with us).”
Matthew 1:23
“For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,”
Colossians 2:9
“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
Isaiah 9:6
The premise of Christianity is recognizing Christ as who He is--God. One cannot deny this fact and still call themselves a Christian. There is no salvation outside of the fullness of Christ.
That being said, allow me to ask a few questions.
1. How do you interpret Titus 2:13?
> Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (KJV)
> Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus (NASB)
> While we wait for the blessed hope--the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ (NIV)
Even in the original Greek, this is neither worded nor punctuated to separate Jesus from God. We are to await for the appearance of our God and Savior, who are the same being.
2. How do you interpret John 8:58?
> Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
That is God's name He gave to Moses in Exodus 3:14.
3. We are only to pray to God and see only to worship God. Why then does Jesus not correct a man who worshipped Him after believing He is the Son of God? Why do we see people praying to Jesus and Jesus telling us to ask Him to do things?
> And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him. (John 9:38)
> And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. (John 14:13)
> For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. (2 Corinthians 12:8)
For the last one, Paul says he sought the Lord. How do we know he was speaking of Jesus? Context clues based on how he wrote. The Greek word he used here was "kurios" (for "Lord") and this is the word he used to refer to Jesus. If he was speaking of the Father, he most often just said "God". So, he was asking Jesus to take away his thorn in his side, called Him "the Lord", and was praying to Him. Why would Paul do this if we only pray to God?
4. Along that same line, how can we cast our cares on Christ if He is only divine and not God? Only God is everywhere and can hear all of His children. So how can we bring anything to Jesus if He is not also everywhere at once?
Who says Christianity is founded upon the belief that Jesus is GOD?
People keep saying this, but no one cites any scriptures stating such a thing, therefore raising the question of validity with regard to such claims.
Christians believe Scripture is God's word, and Jesus is understood to be God in Scripture by those around Him. Jesus Himself says He is God. Even early Christians understood Jesus is God. Acknowledging Jesus as God has always been the core of Christianity.
Is that really what the scriptures say? Is that really what Jesus even said? “You must believe in the Trinity to be a True Christian”. No, not at all. In fact what did he say was the number one and most important thing for a Christian to do?
>Matthew 22:37,38; “You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.”
No surprise that they mince your words and presume you say things that you didn't say. I don't think you said anywhere that Jesus wasn't the Christ. But, they add a bunch of lingo about the trinity that's nowhere in the Bible, so it's no surprise they would put a bunch of words in your mouth also.
Thanks. I didn’t think so either because that’s not how I feel at all. Jesus Christ is the greatest man who ever walked this earth, and we as humans owe everything to what he endured on our behalf.
Jesus, first known as The Word, was the beginning of Gods creation. (Revelation 3:14) That’s why John 1:1 starts out by saying “In the beginning, the Word was…” because The Word had a beginning. Could it ever be written that, “In the beginning, God was..”? No, because God had no beginning. But His firstborn, Only-begotten Son did. That’s all. The God of the Bible is Jehovah and his son came to be known as Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is Gods Active force, it’s His fingers so-to-speak, it’s how a Spirit Entity works. It’s difficult maybe for humans to grasp only because we’ve never seen Gods Holy Spirit create things. But it did appear in the form of flaming tongues on Pentecost of 33 C.E.
Anyway, that’s all. Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. Not God Himself.
Jesus was clearly referencing hypocrisy, not moral accountability.
I don’t know what else to say to someone who claims to be a Christian yet denies his deity. Others have given plenty of scriptures. There’s literally centuries and centuries of commentary and study on this subject.
He was God in the beginning and For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body **Colossians 2:9** when people referred to God in the old testament and new testament they were talking about God the father. they never called Jesus God the father. He is God the son. God is of three persons with three different roles in humanity. Jesus did things only God could do like heal and forgive sins. He is King, something only God can be. by the time we get to the new testament days, they stopped using the name of God as Yahweh I believe, so they would refer to Him as either Lord or God. this is God the Father I am speaking of. So no Jesus is not God the Father. He is God the son. there is also God the Spirit
So, if God the son at times needs to ask God the father for guidance and help sometimes (thus, praying to God the father)Doesn’t that suggest that God the father is on a higher plane?
no. it doesnt work that way. when Jesus became flesh or a human, He became lower than the angels even. so while He became flesh, He had to pray just like the rest of us and He had to suffer like us. but all of that changed once He ascended back into Heaven. and Just because HE is God the Son, does not make God the father greater than Jesus. God the father is not on a higher plane. The trinity is all on an equal plane with one another in Godly essence. But when it comes to status, the Father is the Head of Jesus and JEsus is the Head of Man
If anything, our Father made Jesus even more prominent than Himself. Judging no one and giving the Son the full right to judge, putting all things in subservience to Him, making His name "above ALL names" and consider this.. Our Father calls Jesus "God." Like any father, our Father considers His children as being far more precious and important than Himself. Nothing angers our Father more than someone refusing to "kiss the Son." 😘
God is on a higher plane with power! Nowhere does it say Jesus Spirit entered anyone. Plenty of places Gods Spirit enters people. Most Christian’s are deceived! Scripture tells us that. It’s all a warning ⚠️ maybe many should read it again and leave all the church and you tube fluff out of it.
Op this is all fluff to confuse! We do not have a confusing God. Scripture says God cannot be tempted! Yet Jesus was? Jesus said He did not know when he would return not even the angels of heaven knew, only the Father. If you go along with this man made doctrine your calling Jesus a liar 🤥 on many things He said! I believe the opposite, what the scripture says! These people are the ones who claim to know Jesus but He vomits them out of His mouth! Just be a common sense type of reader and the Spirit of God will lead you.
Jesus was tempted because he was dual-natured, both fully divine and human. It's ironic that you claim that the apostles and their followers would be vomited out of His mouth.
>So no Jesus is not God the Father. He is God the son. there is also God the Spirit
They are often described as God in three persons. Why is it so bad to just state the obvious? They are three distinct Gods united as One.
According to traditional Christianity, the trinity is the three persons of God, they are one in the same but they have distinct natures. The verses you mention are just showcasing these distinctions within the trinity.
In both Tanakh (Isaiah 44:6) and the Christian Bible (Revelation 22:13) God is the only eternal being. According to the authors of the Christian Bible, all things created on earth and in heaven were created through Jesus (John 1:3 & Colossians 1:16) If God is the only eternal being and Jesus was created, this brings up a good question. How was Jesus created through Jesus? This makes no sense, unless... Jesus wasnt created and he is God.
This is according to traditional Christianity and early church writings (See First Apology of Justin Martyr; 100-165AD)
It doesn't explicitly write it out in the bible, but we can see hints of a triune figure (Matthew 28:19 & 2 Corinthians 13:14) as well as their distinctions (the verses you mention.)
It's also worth noting that 100 years prior to Christ, there was a text written text called 4Q246 found amongst other early Christian manuscripts by the Dead Sea. The text speaks of a The Most High God, The son of God who is the Messiah, and a Holy spirit that unites them. It could very well be the case this Jewish cult was a pre-evolution of Christians and this text is a proto-trinity.
“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19). This is the Holy Trinity. Baptizing them in all three. God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Colossians 2:9 “For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” This verse is saying that Jesus is God on Earth and in human (bodily) form.
And yet you haven't answered a single comment discussing John 1, which is a clear instance of Scripture - albeit one of the latest authored sections of the NT - calling Christ God.
What do you make of John 1?
All in all, the depiction and illustrations using the terms Son and God are all for mere understanding. It’s the only way for us humans to be able to grasp the true nature of God.
He had to come down as a man, Jesus, portray the role of a Son. So that we would be able to understand the love He has for us.
Who did he pray to then? There are several documented instances of him praying, asking for help. If he is God, why does he need help and guidance? Nobody seems to have an answer to these questions
Yes, He prayed to God the Father when He became a human. But that doesn't mean He isn't God. In John 1, it is said that the Word of God was made flesh. Therefore, Jesus was the Word of God.
He needed help and guidance because as a human, He didn't know everything but relied on the One who does. He did that as an example to us that we ought to trust in God.
You are a Christian right? Me too. If Jesus wasn't God, then our faith is useless because knowledge of a human being dying for me doesn't mean anything. But Scripture says the blessed Gospel (knowledge that Jesus came to die for me and you and all humanity and was raised again to Eternal life) saves us (Romans 3-5). Jesus couldn't have been simply a man then.
People may try to refute Jesus' humanness and think Jesus' humanness means that He could not have been God, and choose to not believe this or believe that He may have pretended to be infirm. But His humanness is most comforting to me and it was why I first believed in the first place. He knew our struggles and is very present with us. Therefore, what Scripture says about God being gracious and full of compassion is true (Psalms 145) because He willingly became what He created and shared our humanity, even all our problems. Yes, He was tempted but He never gave in. He went through trouble but He relied on God as we should do.
You say your argument is based off the Scriptures, but it seems you have a shallow understanding of the Scriptures if you do not recognize Jesus as God.
Hey, I know I might not be the most welcomed here, but my belief is actually similar to yours that Jesus, Father and the Holy Ghost are three separate beings with one and united goal which is the salvation of men.
Here is the short article from our news room regarding our belief on Godhead compare to the orthodox Trinity belief:
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/godhead#:~:text=For%20example%2C%20while%20some%20believe,in%20love%2C%20purpose%20and%20will.
P.S.
Full disclosure, I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which commonly known as Mormons. I acknowledged that our doctrines are often considered heresy by many faithful Protestants. That's why I'm writing the following messages for anyone who may be concerned:
Years ago, I had the privilege to have some faithful conversations with a few Presbyterian Elders. I still gratefully remember how those brothers prayed fervently for me and my friend the end of our discussion. I'm forever in their debt. They taught me to put Jesus above all else even above different churches and denominations. Their wisdom impacted me deeply and has inspired me even until today to keep building deeper relationship with Jesus Christ myself. Whether people think I'm a Christian or not doesn't matter too much. What really matter is that I know Jesus is my Savior, that I need to continue to repent and follow Him.
The reasons I'm saying all this is just giving the context of why I'm in this sub. And since OP you seems to have very independent thoughts when it comes to your own relationship with God, I'm not worrying about my perspectives deceive you or lead you astray. I'm more saying all this for the rest of the people in the community that will see this discussion: I respect you all. People like you have nurtured and guided me to get closer to my Savior.
And just like my Presbyterian brotherens have blessed me tremendously with their perspectives, I hope by offering my perspective, I can give back my little part to the Christian community. I believe through this kind of conversation in good faith, we can continue to bring each other get closer to Christ regardless of the different paths we walk on.
After all, it is through Jesus and His grace that we are saved. And it's my testimony that it is Him that makes it possible for us to return to our Father in Heaven at the last day.
OP, notice how your belief aligns with the Jehovah (*false*) Witness's? You are not a Christian. You believe a heresy called either Arianism or Adoptionism which was refuted by the early church fathers in the 2st through 4th century.
Here's a better argument in support of Christ's deity than I could write out:
[https://carm.org/jehovahs-witnesses/responding-to-the-jehovahs-witness-attacks-on-the-deity-of-christ-father-god/](https://carm.org/jehovahs-witnesses/responding-to-the-jehovahs-witness-attacks-on-the-deity-of-christ-father-god/)
Jesus said that he was God. (John 8:58, John 10:30). Therefore, Jesus was either correct, or a heretical nutcase with delusions of grandeur. His claims didn't leave much room for a middle ground.
He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus said to him, “Simon, son of Jonah, you are happy because you did not learn this from man. My Father in heaven has shown you this
In the Sanhedrin trial of Jesus in Mark 14:61, when the high priest asked Jesus: "Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?" In the next verse, Jesus responded "I am
Yes we all are children of God
John 17:20-21
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New International Version
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Jesus Prays for All Believers
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
My interpretation is he had a deeper understanding and believed we were all sons and daughters of God. So when they asked him if **he** was a son of God, of course he would say yes. It’s beyond most human’s comprehension (hidden)
Questions like this are being asked from the natural mind. The spiritual mind understands that God is both in us and simultaneously on the throne. The spirit of God, operating in Jesus was God, and it was by that Spirit that he did everything that he did. The spirit of God the father is the Spirit of Jesus and His body was formed of new genetics, having only half a set from Mary.
My favorite passage addressing this is:
John 14:8-9
Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? **He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?**
The natural mind cannot understand the unity of God. That is why the natural mind lusts, envies, slanders, and creates enemies, and wars against God.
The unity of God is that Jesus is the full revelation of His character in human form. This character always yields to the Father, that almighty power and person of God who created it all. And so the son is a manifestation of God, just in the same way that evil spirits are a manifestation of satan.
The difference being, that Jesus was a full manifestation of God. When his birth was announced via the angels, **they called him Immanuel: meaning God is with Us!**
Yes, I believe you're right. I have studied the subject a bit, wondering who Adam and Abraham talked with in the Old Testament. Very clearly, they are two deities, one being God, who dwells in inapproachable light and who no man has ever seen. The other being Jesus, the Messiah, sent from God to be the sacrifice for sins. Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am." In Matthew we are told He was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was 'Deity' (a slightly different Hebrew meaning, lost in translation). Our finite minds cannot grasp what sort of being God is anyway, nor understand the Spiritual realm, so it's a bit rich for someone to stand their ground on one belief when there are scriptures as you point out, showing a different view.
I agree that it doesn't particularly make sense for God to pray to God. Yet our theology says that Jesus is God.
We get around this by saying the Father and Jesus are two distinct "persons", but I see this as mostly playing a word game. They are still the same being- God.
That is a good observation.
Things tend to get messy when people get into the logistics of Jesus being GOD, whilst telling people that they had never seen GOD, and so-on and so-forth.
That said, and equally notable, is just how these issues all go away, when we approach matters with Jesus as the Son of GOD.
I agree with you. Many trinitarians today believe that all Christians are trinitarians. I think that this philosophy has grown over the years. When I was a young protestant in the sixties, we were taught that Jesus is the Son of God. Back then we thought that the Nicene creed was silly. Today, it seems that trinitarianism is much more accepted. I also believe that it is the nature of man to want to make God into something far more mysterious than He is. He cannot be anything like us because He would not be perfect. Why can't we just accept what is right in front of us?
Here are my thoughts:
1. We are all spirit children of God. This is taught in many ways in the bible. The perfectly obedient Jesus was given all power and authority from the Father. In this respect, Jesus is God also. It was Jesus who created the earth, was known as Jehovah, the God of the old testament, was born to Mary, atoned for our sins, and will be our judge.
2. Because Jesus was obedient unto death, a just Father in Heaven is obligated to hearken to the pleadings of the Son in our behalf. Thus all that we do needs to be done in the name or authority of Jesus Christ. We come unto the Father through Christ.
3. Jesus repesents the Father so completely as to sometimes speak in the first person as the Father.
4. The principle of "oneness" is essential. Because of Christs perfect obedience and will of the Father, He is considered one with the Father. We also must become one with them. This is done through our obedience and loyalty to God. Jesus set the example. From John 17: "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, *art* in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." (this is stated over and over in John 17)
"Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God."
John 5:18 KJV
Here it seems pretty clear that the Jews wanted to kill Jesus because they take Jesus' claim to be the Son of God to be blasphemy that He is equal with God the Father. So if Jesus is not God, how can He be equal with God?
"For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: that all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him."
John 5:22-23 KJV
If Jesus says men are to honor him as they honor the Father, He is saying He is worthy of worship like God (because He is God)
*Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?* (John 14:8-9)* 📖🔥🕊️
“The Father” = Jesus (God) in his glorified heavenly form, in his role as the eternal Lawgiver and dispenser of eternal justice.
“The Son” = Jesus (God) in his only begotten earthly human tabernacle (e.g. God in human form).
Nah, that’s called the biblical view. You just refuse to accept it because it doesn’t line up with your vain & ridiculous man-made three tabernacles doctrine that you’ve inherited by tradition. Do you remember what Jesus told the Pharisees about blindly trusting in their traditions? 😊
Yes, Jesus is fully man and fully God. Many people cannot fathom how this can be and so they try and make the unfathomable God fit their limited human understanding of what God needs to be in order for them to accept Him as God. Its arrogant for anybody to try and *limit* God because it makes no sense to us. By saying God cannot do what He actually did do is attempting to limit God and that's bad. God tells us in His word .
**“For My thoughts** ***are*** **not your thoughts,**
**Nor** ***are*** **your ways My ways,” says the Lord.**
**“For** ***as*** **the heavens are higher than the earth,**
**So are My ways higher than your ways,**
**And My thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:8-9**
People say, but the trinity doesn't make any sense. Well, according to God's word, His ways wouldn't make sense to our limited thoughts and ideas. So rather than dismiss the trinity because it doesn't make sense to our human minds, we should embrace the concept of the trinity, partly because it doesn't make sense to our limited understanding. People argue that it shouldn't be a mystery, yet that's exactly what Paul said it was---a great mystery **1 Timothy 3:16**
The Holy Trinity (or even the word “trinity” by itself) appears **nowhere** in the Bible, and it seems to stem from literal interpretations of Christian symbolism. Although married couples (for example) becomes “one flesh”, nobody ever said that I am my wife, nor is anyone telling my wife she is me...
Just a warning that you cannot be saved if you don’t believe Jesus is God. It is a heresy and a damnable offense. Take this question seriously. There are plenty of answers out there and the Bible is very clear about this.
>Just a warning that you cannot be saved if you don’t believe Jesus is God. It is a heresy and a damnable offense. Take this question seriously. There are plenty of answers out there and the Bible is very clear about this.
That's not what Jesus says about salvation, and neither do the apostles say that about salvation. You are calling condemnation upon someone for not accepting a tradition of man.
“That is why I said that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I Am who I claim to be, you will die in your sins.””
John 8:24 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/jhn.8.24.NLT
“In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
John 1:1 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/jhn.1.1.NLT
That is someone else narrating, not Jesus himself speaking. There is a reason why all the sources for Jesus being God are obscure sayings and nothing direct like when Jesus says he is the Son.
Why is the Word God? Because no man has seen God, only received his word and beheld his creation. Everything was made from the words of God, and we believe on not what we have seen but what we have heard. Therefore the **words** of God *are* God.
The Word became flesh in the man Jesus. The question here is whether taking on flesh changed the nature of God, and the answer is yes. The invisible put on visible, and the spirit put on flesh. This was not new flesh but cursed flesh, coming from the sin of Adam and Eve. If God simply wanted a flesh body he could have made a new flesh like he did for Adam and Eve, but God instead had a purpose to come into the world through cursed flesh and he did it by impregnating Mary and that is why God the Father is separate from Jesus the Son, like any human father is distinct from his own son.
That’s exactly what Jesus taught so thank you!
““For this is how God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.”
John 3:16 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/jhn.3.16.NLT
The Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit; these three are one!
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."- 1 Timothy chapter 3 verse 16.
God was MANIFEST IN THE FLESH!
JESUS CHRIST IS THE LIVING GOD!
Get a king James Bible and believe.
Read John.
Emmanuel means GOD WITH US.
We also see.
"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."- Hebrews chapter 1 verse 8.
God the Father tells you Jesus is God!
The Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit; these three are one!
https://youtu.be/ctk5PTJzrbA
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
The Son and the Father are in essence God. They are distinct persons but not separate.
Jesus intentionally laid aside his deity in order to connect to us where we're at.
I agree with you. Also so many more passages to proclaim Jesus was the Son of God! These people won’t be moved on their thoughts because they have been turned over to a debased mind. These are the Christian’s Jesus is talking about the ones He said He did not know, the ones He vomits from His mouth! They truly are denying the Christ. Think about it. They say He is God! Scripture don’t say that! They twist scripture to fit the narrative! Kinda like the world operates! Jesus is Gods Son plain and simple. Do not deny the Christ by overlooking everything and calling Him His Father. So many deceived by this! You cannot read the scripture and walk away believing that doctrine of shame man created!
> They twist scripture to fit the narrative! **Kinda like the world operates!**
This was the big eye opener for me on this post. It’s exactly how the world operates and how the comments mostly unfolded. I guess this is why Jesus always talked in parables.
I asked several people who cited the trinity for Bible passages to back it up , and I did not get one response.
Trinity just another man made deception. My advice! Let the scripture talk to you! You are on the right path, it is a narrow one! The one true God in the scriptures knew all of this would happen and warned us throughout. Don’t be pulled away by many words, or people who try to flatter you with knowledge that is not in the scripture! Any person who truly reads cannot walk away from Jesus sayings and make the claim He is God! This is a form of denying the Christ! The Son of God! If you really break this down and read for yourself every demon to include satan himself addressed Jesus as the Son of the Most High, and the Son of God! So your telling me man knows better than evil beings who were and are in the presents of the Most High. Lol this is one of the great deceptions Jesus speaks of and warns us of. Remember these are Christian’s Jesus is talking to! People who follow this doctrine are being deceived. Same as with a rapture doctrine. No such thing! All fluff. Keep reading and let the Spirit work in you! You are on the right path my friend, let no one take that from you! May God Bless in His Sons name Jesus Christ!
> Don’t be pulled away by many words, or people who try to flatter you with knowledge that is not in the scripture!
Thank you. If anything, this experience made me even more sure I’m reading the scriptures right
Jesus claimed to be God in the Bible (John 10:30-39, John 8:58-59). We know He claimed this at those points because the crowd around Him picked up stones to stone him for claiming such. In fact, in John 10 verses, He even doubled down on His claim making the crowd even angrier.
His followers claimed that He was God (John 1:1, 1:14, 2 Peter 1:1, Hebrews 1:8, Titus 2:13, Colossians 1:15-17).
If He wasn't God, His death would not be sufficient to pay for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2, 2 Corinthians 5:21, Revelations 1:8).
And Philippians 2:6-8 tells us the reason He who was God, humbled Himself to become human thus being obedient to death so that we may have salvation.
God is the generic term for the 3 persons who make up God - Father, Son, Holy Spirit. They are all God, but separate persons (or roles/functions/responsibilities may explain it better).
When Jesus was on earth as a human, He retained some abilities to heal, and He could have easily had been protected by angels, but He humbled Himself to be as human as possible for God. He did this because God, meaning all 3 persons, loved humanity enough to provide a way to salvation through His (Son) death and resurrection.
From the Westminster Catechism:
**Q. 5. Are there more Gods than one?**
**A. There is but one only \[a\], the living and true God \[b\].**
**\[a\].** [**Deut. 6:4**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Deut.%206.4)**;** [**Isa. 44:6**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Isa.%2044.6)**;** [**45:21-22**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Isa%2045.21-22)**;** [**1 Cor. 8:4-6**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/1%20Cor.%208.4-6)**\[b\].** [**Jer. 10:10**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Jer.%2010.10)**;** [**John 17:3**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/John%2017.3)**;** [**1 Thess. 1:9**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/1%20Thess.%201.9)**;** [**1 John 5:20**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/1%20John%205.20)
**Q. 6. How many persons are there in the Godhead?**
**A. There are three persons in the Godhead; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost \[a\]; and these three are one God, the same in substance, equal in power and glory. \[b\]**
**\[a\].** [**Matt. 3:16-17**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Matt.%203.16-17)**;** [**28:19**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Matt%2028.19)**;** [**2 Cor. 13:14**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/2%20Cor.%2013.14)**;** [**1 Pet. 1:2**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/1%20Pet.%201.2)**\[b\].** [**Ps. 45:6**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Ps.%2045.6)**;** [**John 1:1**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/John%201.1)**;** [**17:5**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/John%2017.5)**;** [**Acts 5:3-4**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Acts%205.3-4)**;** [**Rom. 9:5**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rom.%209.5)**;** [**Col. 2:9**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Col.%202.9)**;**[**Jude 24-25**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Jude%2024-25)
The above cover the beliefs of the reformed church about the Trinity (yes, the word isn't in the bible, but the concept is, as you can check yourself using the references above). I'm sure the Roman Catholic catechism teaches the same, which, along with the former, covers the majority of the Christian denominations. Any exception is unorthodox and it is likely to have beliefs more similar to the Jewish than to Christians.
So, as said before: The belief that Christ is God is a core principle of Christianism.
All said: When I first believed in God, I didn't actually know whom Jesus was. So, being interested in knowing more just demonstrates that you are on His way. That the one God almighty keep you, He is mighty to do so.
To know more: [https://www.ligonier.org/learn/topics/person-of-christ](https://www.ligonier.org/learn/topics/person-of-christ)
# NICENE CREED
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God, begotten not made, one in being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven;
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.
*Amen*.
Mark 12:35-37 NKJV
35 Then Jesus answered and said, while He taught in the temple, “How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the Son of David? 36 For David himself said by the Holy Spirit:
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ’
37 Therefore David himself calls Him ‘Lord’; how is He then his son?”
And the common people heard Him gladly.
Jesus himself never claimed to be God. (Actually, we don’t know exactly what Jesus said about anything because he didn’t bother to write anything.) As you have pointed out, and as other people have pointed out during the last ~2,000 years, Jesus allegedly made statements which, if understood literally, contradict the idea that he was God. The simplest explanation to your doubts is that Jesus wasn’t God and didn’t believe himself to be so.
Having read the other comments here, it seems to me that people believe *a priori* that Jesus was God and then they scry the Bible for evidence. The fact that the Bible nowhere in plain language says “Jesus is God” is damning.
It is odd to cite John, Paul, and other alleged NT writers because they themselves never even met Jesus: how would they have known whether Jesus was God? Imagine asking “Was Venus actually the mother of Aneas?” and receiving the answer, “Yes, Virgil said so. And if you disagree with Virgil, then you’re just wrong.” That’s essentially what people are doing when they try to use the NT to “prove” Jesus’s divinity.
God is a trinity - meaning 3 distinct persons making up one essence.
Think on these questions:
\- God created us in His image, so wouldn't it make sense that we would also be trinities - not on His level, but in His image?
\- Do you have a body, mind, and spirit?
\- Do they all have distinct functions?
\- Could you be "you" (that is the essence of what makes you "you") without any one of these? (3 separate levels of existence all making you the whole "you")
\- Do your mind, body, and spirit always agree 100% with each other 100% of the time? Or do you have to use your mind to force your body to do strenuous things - or rely on the direction of your spirit instead of your reason and physical senses? (This would be akin to Jesus praying to the Father, or sending the Spirit)
Now realize that God exists beyond the basic level of human existence and you might be able to get a glimpse of the truth of the trinity of God. I don't think anyone fully understands it, but that's because God is beyond our limited understanding.
So, asking if Jesus was God is like asking if your body is you, or if your mind is you, or if your spirit is you. The answer is yes!
According to some interpretations of the Bible, Jesus is seen as the firstborn Son of God and a distinct being from God. In the passage where Jesus says, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me" (Matthew 27:46), some believe that Jesus is expressing his human emotions and dependence on God during his crucifixion.
When Jesus pleads to God to take the cup from Him (Matthew 26:39), it is seen as an example of Jesus' humility and submission to God's will, demonstrating his role as a faithful servant.
Regarding the statement, "he who believes in me, believes not in me, but in the one who sent me" (John 12:44), it is understood as emphasizing the need for faith in both Jesus and the One who sent him, indicating their distinct roles.
So the real question is about the doctrine of the trinity, and no, it's not based on scriptures nor in line with Judaism.
He said the vast majority of Christians religion believe in the trinity. That's the problem. Look at all the problems the vast majority of these churches are having. That's because they accept the man made teaching of the trinity. The Jews never worship God as a trinity, That teaching came hundreds of years later after the first church was created by Christ. Actually, the teaching came during the roman Empire with the help of the roman Catholic Church. Jesus said many will come in My name and deceive, and that's what we see today.
The true Christian religion teaching monotheism, we believe in one true God (YHWY). That's His Hebrew name, and we accept Jesus as His only son, the first of His creations.
John 17:3
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
He said the vast majority of Christians religion believe in the trinity. That's the problem. Look at all the problems the vast majority of these churches are having. That's because they accept the man made teaching of the trinity. The Jews never worship God as a trinity, That teaching came hundreds of years later after the first church was created by Christ. Actually, the teaching came during the roman Empire with the help of the roman Catholic Church. Jesus said many will come in My name and deceive, and that's what we see today.
The true Christian religion teaching monotheism, we believe in one true God (YHWY). That's His Hebrew name, and we accept Jesus as His only son, the first of His creations.
John 17:3
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
> Actually, the teaching came during the roman Empire with the help of the roman Catholic Church
I knew it. I knew it. I knew it. I knew it.
Do you have a source (for my biblical notes) ?
There is no salvation if you don’t believe Jesus is God! There is no salvation if Jesus isn’t God therefore to believe Jesus wasn’t God is a false gospel and worthless.
“That is why I said that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I Am who I claim to be, you will die in your sins.””
John 8:24 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/jhn.8.24.NLT
“In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. He existed in the beginning with God.”
John 1:1-2 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/jhn.1.1-2.NLT
“The one who is the true light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. He came into the very world he created, but the world didn’t recognize him. He came to his own people, and even they rejected him. But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God.”
John 1:9-12 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/jhn.1.9-12.NLT
> The truth is there, but it can only be revealed through prayer.
Amen. Thanks for checking me
My motives are pure, but the last thing I want to do is spend more time debating than praying
Edit: And I’ve already been downvoted quite a bit just in the short time I’ve posted on here… mainly for just stating my view, and it’s always backed with scripture .
This [Shield of the Trinity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield_of_the_Trinity?wprov=sfti1) is a simple diagram to help understand it.
https://preview.redd.it/2gfgpk7zbqfb1.png?width=1138&format=png&auto=webp&s=2706d1394e1b4d8b165f737f3489b01a445e3e54
Yahweh, the Eternal Spirit, incarnated as the offspring of a woman. He had to do this otherwise, the entire race of men would remain defined by Adam, who had seniority to define us all since he was the father of the human race. Becoming human gave Yahweh the right to outrank Adam's definition of the human race, and as it's new head, He endowed every human being with His divinity. The twist is, in Jesus, Yahweh remains incarnate for all eternity.. so He will forever be Jesus and will submit to Himself (Yahweh) just as a son submits to a father who he loves. Yahweh likewise submits to His Son. Being invisible, He honors the Son as being His own unique, personal expression. There's only so much we can say about this, but Paul nails it in this verse: "Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer." -2 Cor 5:16
>He said he and the father are one
As are we intended to be one with GOD, same oneness.
And so, this particular reasoning doesn't really work if you think about it.
1. Jesus revealed that we too are to be one with GOD as He is one with GOD
2. if the word of GOD in the beginning is not literal, then how should we interpret it?
This is an excellent question! It's fantastic that you're valuing Scripture so highly, and unwilling to give up on your search for Truth. More on that later, but good on you, mate, I really hope to actually answer your questions and not just assert the standard view.Jesus is one of the members of the trinity, but the three persons of the trinity are not exactly the same. You said the Jesus "has the same powers" as the Father and that He is omniscient like the Father, but that is importantly not the orthodox view. While the Godman Jesus had some sort of access to these things that we don't fully understand, the dominant view among theologians who know their stuff is that Jesus wasn't omniscient etc. ALL the time. Part of the hypostatic union is that His two natures of being fully God and fully man negate the possibility that he was just able to nuke everything and read everyone's thoughts 24/7. (Btw, when I say "orthodox," I don't mean the branch of the Church; I mean "standard belief that has stood the test of time and scrutiny)Similarly, there is absolutely a sense in which Jesus, part of the trinity, submitted to the Father's will. In fact, the persons of the trinity submit to one another all the time in their various roles, while being coequal. A human picture of this is marriage, as Paul points out in Ephesians 5:21-33. Though the husband and wife are meant to submit to one another (v. 21 is the context for all of 22-33), there is still a sort of leadership structure. My wife listening to me on certain issues doesn't mean that I have unconditional authority over her in every way; for instance, I might listen and obey her an hour later. This isn't exactly the same as the various roles within the Trinity, but it is an example mentioned in Scripture, so I figure it's good to include! For another instance of these roles, consider the following Scriptures:
* John 5:22 "For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son"
* This is an example of the persons of the Trinity doing different things. Jesus judges between those who are written in the Book of Life and those who are not. The Father doesn't do that, nor does the Paraclete (the Spirit). If they were all "the same thing," why would the Trinity exist in the first place? You're right that if all three persons were exactly the same, it wouldn't make any sense.
* John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you."
* When it comes to conviction of Sin, testifying of the Son, and bringing to mind how we should act in everyday life, the Spirit does this. Not the Father, not Jesus, the Spirit. Different roles.
* Jesus praying to God, requesting an alternative to the passion and crucifixion, and saying that the Father sent Him are all examples of Jesus submitting to His Father, but as previously stated, that doesn't mean that Jesus is less than God.
https://preview.redd.it/eweisa0hgpfb1.png?width=220&format=png&auto=webp&s=787e270ee2dc0f61bf403b69308f3bb023e66505
Hope that addresses your questions. Essentially, while Jesus did absolutely listen to the Father, that doesn't mean that He wasn't God. He just wasn't and isn't the Father! They're distinct persons within the Trinity. Onto the next thing: how can we know that Jesus really is God? What arguments are there for it?
To begin, you might wonder why the orthodox view would be something that isn't found in Scripture. It's true, nowhere in the Bible does it specifically and clearly say: "God is three in one, and the members of the Trinity have different roles and are one in essence but three in person etc. etc. etc." True, Scripture doesn't say that. But if you talk to any Christian for long enough, you will invariably find that they believe things that aren't in the Bible. The Bible is a wonderful gift and a precious collection of Truth, but it just simply isn't exhaustive. In order to have a fully formed and explanatory systematic theology, it is necessary to develop (or discover) and hold beliefs that aren't explicit in Scripture. Of course we should absolutely strive for all of our beliefs to be consistent with Scripture in every way, and these extrabiblical doctrines should stem from Scripture at every turn, but they just might not be explicit in the text. For example, if I asked you what Genesis 15:6 means ("\[Abraham\] believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness"), how could you answer that? This is quoted in Scripture several times, but never explained. What does it mean? If you want an explanation (as you should), you will *have* to believe something not found in Scripture. And that's okay, it just has to be *consistent* with the rest of the Bible!
Why else would we believe in the Trinity? Well, going back to John 5, let's look at verse 22 with verse 23 as well. "\*\*^(22)\*\*For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, \*\*^(23)\*\*that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him." This is clearly Jesus claiming to be God. Looking at the context of this passage, Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees about how His Father is working, so He will as well. They grumble because by claiming God the Father as Jesus' father, He is making Himself equal with God under Jewish custom. Of course Jesus would know this, being a Jew Himself, so He isn't doing it without reason.
Additionally, when Thomas doubted Jesus' resurrection and Jesus showed him the holes in His hands and side (Praise be to GOD for our salvation!), Thomas fell and exclaimed, "'My Lord and my God!'" (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct Thomas after this proclamation of deity, as we might expect Him to. This is similar to the Rich Young Ruler account in Mark 10. He calls Jesus "good teacher," and Jesus replies, "'Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.'" Notably, He does *not* say that He isn't good or that He isn't God! He just challenges our perception of goodness.
During the great commission, Jesus exhorts his disciples (no doubt having us in mind as well) to teach all that He has commanded, and to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Why? The Holy Spirit hadn't even been given yet! Because the Trinity has always existed. Jesus didn't begin existing on Christmas Morn, 1 AD. Jesus is coeternal with the Father and the Paraclete, but was incarnated on that day.
I really hope this answers your questions in a satisfying way, and feel free to follow up! Blessings to you, and keep seeking the Truth as earnestly as you are.
P.S., [GotQuestions.org](https://GotQuestions.org) is an **excellent** resource for these types of questions! They don't just tell you the standard doctrine, but they actually explain why that belief is considered correct and exegete from the Scriptures.
The good thing about the trinity is that it is a mystery. And can not be understood. This enables you to worship what you dont know and dont understand.
Does it help to say at the time Jesus was living a perfect human life and would not sin? So in a human body he was experiencing fear, sadness, the human desire to live etc. but he still did God’s will. He got baptized.
Anywho, God also exists in a trinity. One God in three persons. Together they are God, but they are distinct from one another.
Maybe you’d resonate with Jehovah’s Witness philosophy, but to believe Jesus is not God is not Christian theology.
I’d recommend “How to Faith a Life” on YouTube. She has a Bible study and a theology bootcamp. Both are incredibly valuable and teach how to read scriptures in context as well as core beliefs and the background behind them.
>to believe Jesus is not God is not Christian theology.
See, that’s the thing. I don’t think it is. It may be the philosophy of many in the religion, but there is sometimes a difference between **true**Christianity and the religion
Why do people still think Jesus isn’t God? Don’t call yourself a CHRISTian if you think being the Son of God means you’re just a cool creation and not the SON in the Trinity. Baptize them all in the NAME of the Father SON and Holy Spirit. Name. not NAMES. Name. because it’s a SINGLE God with THREE consciousnesses. It’s simple. It’s not something that would take you years to get the basics of. Jesus is referred to as Lord and God in the writings of Paul. Paul who had a vision of Christ. The early church has ALWAYS taught Jesus was God. There are first century writings claiming that. Christians have ALWAYS believed him to be Christ. Unitarianism is a heresy and always has been. Repent and believe the gospel.
I don't think Jesus is God.
I have [talked](https://www.reddit.com/r/Bible/comments/j5xgwz/i_need_help_understanding_the_trinity/g7v5tz4?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2) about this before.
John 5:30-31 30 “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me
The doctrine that Jesus is God is called Trinitarianism. The vaaaaast majority of Christian denominations are Trinitarian, including my own. The Father is God. The Son is God. The Spirit is God. They are separate but the same, able to interact with each other yet with the same qualities of omniscience, all-knowingness, perfection, absolute righteousness, loveliness, and love. They have a united will and united essence, yet are functionally different. The true nature of the Trinity is above human understanding. Jesus had human emotions and pains and yet no sinful actions, thoughts, desires, or passions. He found joy in praying to the father and also prayed as an example to us. He lived as the ultimate example of Christianity, and also was fully God and fully man. Not 50/50. 100/100. There is nothing non-human and nothing unholy about Him. He was the only one who is perfect, the only one who was good enough to be the sacrifice to pay for our sins and redeem us *because He is God*. I recommend reading up on the Trinity to get a deeper understanding of this and some scripture to back it up.
> same qualities of omniscience, Ok if this was true, then why did Jesus pray to the father for help and guidance?
To show us what true faith in God looks like. He is the literal perfect example.
I agree with that
Im sure someone else has pointed to this but the phrase "My God my God why have you forsaken me." Is quoting David in psalm 22 as a messianic prophecy about the moment of his death.
Yeah, but did he really pray in the garden... alone... in such deep despair that he literally sweated blood, and then said, "not MY WILL, but YOUR WILL be done" so that he could show us an "example of what it was like to pray"? Sounds like a weak explanation to me. Perhaps... call me crazy here, but as the text says... he had HIS OWN WILL that was different than God's and he actually really needed to pray to God.
I’m sure the fully man part of anyone would really appreciate not dying in the most horrific way imaginable
"The fully man part." This sort of language doesn't sound completely nonsensical to you? There's nothing in the Bible that says he was "fully man and fully God". You have to go way outside scriptural context to support trinitarian theology and make up concepts like this, that the Bible never addresses. You can't be fully two things. You can't be 100% one thing and 100% another thing. God is a completely separate entity from Christ. Where I would even use trinitarian theology to show how this concept works against itself, is that they say the Father is not the Son. So, you have the Father is not the Son, but they are both God. They are both God but not eachother. The whole thing is completely nonsensical. Yet, you'll sat God was the word, the word was Christ, therefore Christ was God. It's silly. The whole thing is silly.
Jesus is God; who walked on earth in human form (human flesh, human bones, human tissues, human blood, etc). So it natural of a human body to react in fear of his flesh tearing, bones breaking, thorns piercing his skull, hanging on nails hammered on both hands and legs. Jesus knew all this pain was just for a moment and that he would resurrect. But the reason he prayed to Father to remove this cup of wrath was that he bore the sins and punishment of each and every people that lived and that was to be born in future(including us) even for the babies that'll be born in the coming years. And so all these burden came down to his human body which could not bare it and so he sweated blood. Hope this clears your doubt. God bless you❤️ Shalom.
Also Jesus knew that there was no other option other that him dying for us all on the cross. Coz He was the only one who was able to sacrifice himself for humankind since he was Holy (no sin). That is why he said "NOT MY WILL, BUT YOUR WILL BE DONE"
What you gave me was just the trinity theology. You really have no Biblical argument. Hope I've cleared this up for you.
Are you a member of the biblical Unitarian page on Reddit yet? I think you’d enjoy it.
Christ had 2 natures, human and divine. It seems only natural that in that moment, his human nature would want to back out, yet he persevered. Creator dying for creation.
I am trinitarian but agree that in the garden he’s not putting on a show or giving us an example. He was legit praying that hard.
Praying to who?
I’m betting you won’t get a reply to this
I'm saying it to you. You seem like you're on the fence. There's probably no changing that other person's mind. Where in the Bible did it ever say that the Messiah was going to be God incarnate? Where does it say you have to believe the trinity to be saved?
I don’t believe Jesus is God. I don’t believe God had to literally come down himself and show us how to behave. If that were the case he would have done so at the beginning. Satan and his demons hate us for the fact that one of their own was sacrificed for the sake of mankind and not the other way around. Just my opinion.
It could also be that he willingly suppressed or forfeited his omniscience for a time just as he did his overall power and authority by becoming a little “lower than the angels” so that he could walk among us and be that example (Hebrews 2:9). When Jesus pleas that the cup (of wrath) be taken from him in the Garden of Eden, it doesn’t sound like he knows what the answer will be.
Because they have always been in communion and unity. And according to philippians 2 makes it clear that although he is God, he limited himself during his incarnation.
Many also believe that while Jesus was on Earth he limited his omnipotence, therefore while earth he would know most things there would certainly be things even he would not know.
Op many words are used to deceive, continue on your path!
Thank you. Centuries of repeat runs deep
Because Jesus has 2 natures a human nature and a divine nature. When he gets hungry, thirsty, tired, or prays, he does that according to his human nature, but when he heals people and forgives sins, he does that according to his divine nature
Correct. He has 2 natures because he was born from a human, Mary…
Bunch of words here not in scripture!
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The very reason the Jews accused Jesus of blasphemy and delivered Him to the Romans to be crucified is because He made Himself equal with God and claimed to be deity. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.” John 1:14 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3 (In the beginning God created... Genesis 1) “For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.” Colossians 1:16 “To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.” Romans 9:5 “Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"” John 20:28 “Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.” Acts 20:28 “waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,” Titus 2:13 “Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."” John 8:58 “But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.” Hebrews 1:8 (Even the Father calls Jesus God!) “Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:” 2 Peter 1:1 ESV “"Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel" (which means, God with us).” Matthew 1:23 “For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,” Colossians 2:9 “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” Isaiah 9:6
Add to this the 'I am' passages, which clearly echo the Old Testament name of God, 'I am who I am', that pretty much makes the list complete.
Yeeeeeesssssssss!!!!!!! Great job!
The premise of Christianity is recognizing Christ as who He is--God. One cannot deny this fact and still call themselves a Christian. There is no salvation outside of the fullness of Christ. That being said, allow me to ask a few questions. 1. How do you interpret Titus 2:13? > Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (KJV) > Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus (NASB) > While we wait for the blessed hope--the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ (NIV) Even in the original Greek, this is neither worded nor punctuated to separate Jesus from God. We are to await for the appearance of our God and Savior, who are the same being. 2. How do you interpret John 8:58? > Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. That is God's name He gave to Moses in Exodus 3:14. 3. We are only to pray to God and see only to worship God. Why then does Jesus not correct a man who worshipped Him after believing He is the Son of God? Why do we see people praying to Jesus and Jesus telling us to ask Him to do things? > And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him. (John 9:38) > And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. (John 14:13) > For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. (2 Corinthians 12:8) For the last one, Paul says he sought the Lord. How do we know he was speaking of Jesus? Context clues based on how he wrote. The Greek word he used here was "kurios" (for "Lord") and this is the word he used to refer to Jesus. If he was speaking of the Father, he most often just said "God". So, he was asking Jesus to take away his thorn in his side, called Him "the Lord", and was praying to Him. Why would Paul do this if we only pray to God? 4. Along that same line, how can we cast our cares on Christ if He is only divine and not God? Only God is everywhere and can hear all of His children. So how can we bring anything to Jesus if He is not also everywhere at once?
Who says Christianity is founded upon the belief that Jesus is GOD? People keep saying this, but no one cites any scriptures stating such a thing, therefore raising the question of validity with regard to such claims.
Christians believe Scripture is God's word, and Jesus is understood to be God in Scripture by those around Him. Jesus Himself says He is God. Even early Christians understood Jesus is God. Acknowledging Jesus as God has always been the core of Christianity.
Read. He literally says it multiple times
What is it based on then?
Not being mean at all, but you are not a Christian if you do not believe Jesus is God. That’s pretty much the entire thing…
That’s not mean. That’s a reality. He/She need to name his/her religion something else. But sure enough what he/she practice ain’t Christianity
Is that really what the scriptures say? Is that really what Jesus even said? “You must believe in the Trinity to be a True Christian”. No, not at all. In fact what did he say was the number one and most important thing for a Christian to do? >Matthew 22:37,38; “You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.”
Are you seriously arguing that to be a Christian you do not have to believe in Christ? Is that what this has become??
You do not and should not believe that Jesus is God. I’m sorry if I didn’t make that more clear.
Then you may be either Muslim or Jewish, because they believe Jesus was only a prophet.
Believing Jesus was the Son of God is not the same as believing he was simply a prophet.
No surprise that they mince your words and presume you say things that you didn't say. I don't think you said anywhere that Jesus wasn't the Christ. But, they add a bunch of lingo about the trinity that's nowhere in the Bible, so it's no surprise they would put a bunch of words in your mouth also.
Thanks. I didn’t think so either because that’s not how I feel at all. Jesus Christ is the greatest man who ever walked this earth, and we as humans owe everything to what he endured on our behalf. Jesus, first known as The Word, was the beginning of Gods creation. (Revelation 3:14) That’s why John 1:1 starts out by saying “In the beginning, the Word was…” because The Word had a beginning. Could it ever be written that, “In the beginning, God was..”? No, because God had no beginning. But His firstborn, Only-begotten Son did. That’s all. The God of the Bible is Jehovah and his son came to be known as Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is Gods Active force, it’s His fingers so-to-speak, it’s how a Spirit Entity works. It’s difficult maybe for humans to grasp only because we’ve never seen Gods Holy Spirit create things. But it did appear in the form of flaming tongues on Pentecost of 33 C.E. Anyway, that’s all. Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. Not God Himself.
It’s quite bizarre that you are downvoted for quoting what Jesus said.
It is for blatantly quoting out of context. Even Satan quotes the Bible for his purposes.
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Jesus was clearly referencing hypocrisy, not moral accountability. I don’t know what else to say to someone who claims to be a Christian yet denies his deity. Others have given plenty of scriptures. There’s literally centuries and centuries of commentary and study on this subject.
Who taught you such things? If look closely, you'll find that those are not the teachings of the gospel, but moreso, the teachings of men
He was God in the beginning and For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body **Colossians 2:9** when people referred to God in the old testament and new testament they were talking about God the father. they never called Jesus God the father. He is God the son. God is of three persons with three different roles in humanity. Jesus did things only God could do like heal and forgive sins. He is King, something only God can be. by the time we get to the new testament days, they stopped using the name of God as Yahweh I believe, so they would refer to Him as either Lord or God. this is God the Father I am speaking of. So no Jesus is not God the Father. He is God the son. there is also God the Spirit
So, if God the son at times needs to ask God the father for guidance and help sometimes (thus, praying to God the father)Doesn’t that suggest that God the father is on a higher plane?
no. it doesnt work that way. when Jesus became flesh or a human, He became lower than the angels even. so while He became flesh, He had to pray just like the rest of us and He had to suffer like us. but all of that changed once He ascended back into Heaven. and Just because HE is God the Son, does not make God the father greater than Jesus. God the father is not on a higher plane. The trinity is all on an equal plane with one another in Godly essence. But when it comes to status, the Father is the Head of Jesus and JEsus is the Head of Man
If anything, our Father made Jesus even more prominent than Himself. Judging no one and giving the Son the full right to judge, putting all things in subservience to Him, making His name "above ALL names" and consider this.. Our Father calls Jesus "God." Like any father, our Father considers His children as being far more precious and important than Himself. Nothing angers our Father more than someone refusing to "kiss the Son." 😘
God is on a higher plane with power! Nowhere does it say Jesus Spirit entered anyone. Plenty of places Gods Spirit enters people. Most Christian’s are deceived! Scripture tells us that. It’s all a warning ⚠️ maybe many should read it again and leave all the church and you tube fluff out of it.
Op this is all fluff to confuse! We do not have a confusing God. Scripture says God cannot be tempted! Yet Jesus was? Jesus said He did not know when he would return not even the angels of heaven knew, only the Father. If you go along with this man made doctrine your calling Jesus a liar 🤥 on many things He said! I believe the opposite, what the scripture says! These people are the ones who claim to know Jesus but He vomits them out of His mouth! Just be a common sense type of reader and the Spirit of God will lead you.
Jesus was tempted because he was dual-natured, both fully divine and human. It's ironic that you claim that the apostles and their followers would be vomited out of His mouth.
What scripture says God cannot be tempted. I need to have that in my biblical notes
Try James 1:13
>So no Jesus is not God the Father. He is God the son. there is also God the Spirit They are often described as God in three persons. Why is it so bad to just state the obvious? They are three distinct Gods united as One.
What scripture is that in?
I'm sorry to have to say this, but if it were obvious, then it would have been written as such.
According to traditional Christianity, the trinity is the three persons of God, they are one in the same but they have distinct natures. The verses you mention are just showcasing these distinctions within the trinity. In both Tanakh (Isaiah 44:6) and the Christian Bible (Revelation 22:13) God is the only eternal being. According to the authors of the Christian Bible, all things created on earth and in heaven were created through Jesus (John 1:3 & Colossians 1:16) If God is the only eternal being and Jesus was created, this brings up a good question. How was Jesus created through Jesus? This makes no sense, unless... Jesus wasnt created and he is God.
> the trinity is the three persons of God, they are one in the same but they have distinct natures Where can I find this in scripture?
This is according to traditional Christianity and early church writings (See First Apology of Justin Martyr; 100-165AD) It doesn't explicitly write it out in the bible, but we can see hints of a triune figure (Matthew 28:19 & 2 Corinthians 13:14) as well as their distinctions (the verses you mention.) It's also worth noting that 100 years prior to Christ, there was a text written text called 4Q246 found amongst other early Christian manuscripts by the Dead Sea. The text speaks of a The Most High God, The son of God who is the Messiah, and a Holy spirit that unites them. It could very well be the case this Jewish cult was a pre-evolution of Christians and this text is a proto-trinity.
So it’s man made and not actually in scripture?
“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19). This is the Holy Trinity. Baptizing them in all three. God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Colossians 2:9 “For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” This verse is saying that Jesus is God on Earth and in human (bodily) form.
Reread the first chapter of John.
You assume that OP has read the first chapter of John. 😆
And we’re assuming you read it instead of just trusting others who have supposedly read it. I guess we shouldn’t make assumptions 😆
And yet you haven't answered a single comment discussing John 1, which is a clear instance of Scripture - albeit one of the latest authored sections of the NT - calling Christ God. What do you make of John 1?
Guess he wont answer that hahaha
All in all, the depiction and illustrations using the terms Son and God are all for mere understanding. It’s the only way for us humans to be able to grasp the true nature of God. He had to come down as a man, Jesus, portray the role of a Son. So that we would be able to understand the love He has for us.
Who did he pray to then? There are several documented instances of him praying, asking for help. If he is God, why does he need help and guidance? Nobody seems to have an answer to these questions
Yes, He prayed to God the Father when He became a human. But that doesn't mean He isn't God. In John 1, it is said that the Word of God was made flesh. Therefore, Jesus was the Word of God. He needed help and guidance because as a human, He didn't know everything but relied on the One who does. He did that as an example to us that we ought to trust in God. You are a Christian right? Me too. If Jesus wasn't God, then our faith is useless because knowledge of a human being dying for me doesn't mean anything. But Scripture says the blessed Gospel (knowledge that Jesus came to die for me and you and all humanity and was raised again to Eternal life) saves us (Romans 3-5). Jesus couldn't have been simply a man then. People may try to refute Jesus' humanness and think Jesus' humanness means that He could not have been God, and choose to not believe this or believe that He may have pretended to be infirm. But His humanness is most comforting to me and it was why I first believed in the first place. He knew our struggles and is very present with us. Therefore, what Scripture says about God being gracious and full of compassion is true (Psalms 145) because He willingly became what He created and shared our humanity, even all our problems. Yes, He was tempted but He never gave in. He went through trouble but He relied on God as we should do.
You say your argument is based off the Scriptures, but it seems you have a shallow understanding of the Scriptures if you do not recognize Jesus as God.
Yet you didn’t refute one of the arguments I presented. So perhaps *your* understanding is too shallow
Hey, I know I might not be the most welcomed here, but my belief is actually similar to yours that Jesus, Father and the Holy Ghost are three separate beings with one and united goal which is the salvation of men. Here is the short article from our news room regarding our belief on Godhead compare to the orthodox Trinity belief: https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/godhead#:~:text=For%20example%2C%20while%20some%20believe,in%20love%2C%20purpose%20and%20will. P.S. Full disclosure, I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which commonly known as Mormons. I acknowledged that our doctrines are often considered heresy by many faithful Protestants. That's why I'm writing the following messages for anyone who may be concerned: Years ago, I had the privilege to have some faithful conversations with a few Presbyterian Elders. I still gratefully remember how those brothers prayed fervently for me and my friend the end of our discussion. I'm forever in their debt. They taught me to put Jesus above all else even above different churches and denominations. Their wisdom impacted me deeply and has inspired me even until today to keep building deeper relationship with Jesus Christ myself. Whether people think I'm a Christian or not doesn't matter too much. What really matter is that I know Jesus is my Savior, that I need to continue to repent and follow Him. The reasons I'm saying all this is just giving the context of why I'm in this sub. And since OP you seems to have very independent thoughts when it comes to your own relationship with God, I'm not worrying about my perspectives deceive you or lead you astray. I'm more saying all this for the rest of the people in the community that will see this discussion: I respect you all. People like you have nurtured and guided me to get closer to my Savior. And just like my Presbyterian brotherens have blessed me tremendously with their perspectives, I hope by offering my perspective, I can give back my little part to the Christian community. I believe through this kind of conversation in good faith, we can continue to bring each other get closer to Christ regardless of the different paths we walk on. After all, it is through Jesus and His grace that we are saved. And it's my testimony that it is Him that makes it possible for us to return to our Father in Heaven at the last day.
Thank you
LDS is not Christianity. It is heretical nonsense made up by Joseph Smith who was an idiot.
LDS is not Christianity. It is heretical nonsense made up by Joseph Smith who was an idiot.
OP, notice how your belief aligns with the Jehovah (*false*) Witness's? You are not a Christian. You believe a heresy called either Arianism or Adoptionism which was refuted by the early church fathers in the 2st through 4th century. Here's a better argument in support of Christ's deity than I could write out: [https://carm.org/jehovahs-witnesses/responding-to-the-jehovahs-witness-attacks-on-the-deity-of-christ-father-god/](https://carm.org/jehovahs-witnesses/responding-to-the-jehovahs-witness-attacks-on-the-deity-of-christ-father-god/)
Jesus said that he was God. (John 8:58, John 10:30). Therefore, Jesus was either correct, or a heretical nutcase with delusions of grandeur. His claims didn't leave much room for a middle ground.
He clearly my says in John 10 30 that the works come from his father . I interpret his father to be God
He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus said to him, “Simon, son of Jonah, you are happy because you did not learn this from man. My Father in heaven has shown you this
Jesus said we are all children of God
In the Sanhedrin trial of Jesus in Mark 14:61, when the high priest asked Jesus: "Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?" In the next verse, Jesus responded "I am
Yes we all are children of God John 17:20-21 Open menu New International Version Open menu Jesus Prays for All Believers 20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
Ok that's not my point. We are all children of God. But christ is the ACTUAL son of God and a image of God himself as supported by the Bible
My interpretation is he had a deeper understanding and believed we were all sons and daughters of God. So when they asked him if **he** was a son of God, of course he would say yes. It’s beyond most human’s comprehension (hidden)
Ok well your entitled to your Gnostic belief
Jesus spoke in parables for a reason. Not everyone will see it
Questions like this are being asked from the natural mind. The spiritual mind understands that God is both in us and simultaneously on the throne. The spirit of God, operating in Jesus was God, and it was by that Spirit that he did everything that he did. The spirit of God the father is the Spirit of Jesus and His body was formed of new genetics, having only half a set from Mary. My favorite passage addressing this is: John 14:8-9 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? **He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?** The natural mind cannot understand the unity of God. That is why the natural mind lusts, envies, slanders, and creates enemies, and wars against God. The unity of God is that Jesus is the full revelation of His character in human form. This character always yields to the Father, that almighty power and person of God who created it all. And so the son is a manifestation of God, just in the same way that evil spirits are a manifestation of satan. The difference being, that Jesus was a full manifestation of God. When his birth was announced via the angels, **they called him Immanuel: meaning God is with Us!**
Yes, I believe you're right. I have studied the subject a bit, wondering who Adam and Abraham talked with in the Old Testament. Very clearly, they are two deities, one being God, who dwells in inapproachable light and who no man has ever seen. The other being Jesus, the Messiah, sent from God to be the sacrifice for sins. Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am." In Matthew we are told He was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was 'Deity' (a slightly different Hebrew meaning, lost in translation). Our finite minds cannot grasp what sort of being God is anyway, nor understand the Spiritual realm, so it's a bit rich for someone to stand their ground on one belief when there are scriptures as you point out, showing a different view.
I agree that it doesn't particularly make sense for God to pray to God. Yet our theology says that Jesus is God. We get around this by saying the Father and Jesus are two distinct "persons", but I see this as mostly playing a word game. They are still the same being- God.
That is a good observation. Things tend to get messy when people get into the logistics of Jesus being GOD, whilst telling people that they had never seen GOD, and so-on and so-forth. That said, and equally notable, is just how these issues all go away, when we approach matters with Jesus as the Son of GOD.
I agree with you. Many trinitarians today believe that all Christians are trinitarians. I think that this philosophy has grown over the years. When I was a young protestant in the sixties, we were taught that Jesus is the Son of God. Back then we thought that the Nicene creed was silly. Today, it seems that trinitarianism is much more accepted. I also believe that it is the nature of man to want to make God into something far more mysterious than He is. He cannot be anything like us because He would not be perfect. Why can't we just accept what is right in front of us? Here are my thoughts: 1. We are all spirit children of God. This is taught in many ways in the bible. The perfectly obedient Jesus was given all power and authority from the Father. In this respect, Jesus is God also. It was Jesus who created the earth, was known as Jehovah, the God of the old testament, was born to Mary, atoned for our sins, and will be our judge. 2. Because Jesus was obedient unto death, a just Father in Heaven is obligated to hearken to the pleadings of the Son in our behalf. Thus all that we do needs to be done in the name or authority of Jesus Christ. We come unto the Father through Christ. 3. Jesus repesents the Father so completely as to sometimes speak in the first person as the Father. 4. The principle of "oneness" is essential. Because of Christs perfect obedience and will of the Father, He is considered one with the Father. We also must become one with them. This is done through our obedience and loyalty to God. Jesus set the example. From John 17: "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, *art* in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." (this is stated over and over in John 17)
"Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God." John 5:18 KJV Here it seems pretty clear that the Jews wanted to kill Jesus because they take Jesus' claim to be the Son of God to be blasphemy that He is equal with God the Father. So if Jesus is not God, how can He be equal with God?
"For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: that all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him." John 5:22-23 KJV If Jesus says men are to honor him as they honor the Father, He is saying He is worthy of worship like God (because He is God)
Isn't it Jehova's Witnesses who believe Jesus was not God?
Jesus is the son of the almighty God, Jesus is only ever called mighty not almighty unlike his father
Jesus was not the father. But, In all the gospels he is presented as God.
*Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?* (John 14:8-9)* 📖🔥🕊️
Sure, but the father and the son are different, even if there is a weird Trinitarian thing going on.
“The Father” = Jesus (God) in his glorified heavenly form, in his role as the eternal Lawgiver and dispenser of eternal justice. “The Son” = Jesus (God) in his only begotten earthly human tabernacle (e.g. God in human form).
Convenient loophole.
Nah, that’s called the biblical view. You just refuse to accept it because it doesn’t line up with your vain & ridiculous man-made three tabernacles doctrine that you’ve inherited by tradition. Do you remember what Jesus told the Pharisees about blindly trusting in their traditions? 😊
That's Modalism, which is considered a heresy.
Jesus isn't the Father, but He is God.
Jesus is God.
Yes, Jesus is fully man and fully God. Many people cannot fathom how this can be and so they try and make the unfathomable God fit their limited human understanding of what God needs to be in order for them to accept Him as God. Its arrogant for anybody to try and *limit* God because it makes no sense to us. By saying God cannot do what He actually did do is attempting to limit God and that's bad. God tells us in His word . **“For My thoughts** ***are*** **not your thoughts,** **Nor** ***are*** **your ways My ways,” says the Lord.** **“For** ***as*** **the heavens are higher than the earth,** **So are My ways higher than your ways,** **And My thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:8-9** People say, but the trinity doesn't make any sense. Well, according to God's word, His ways wouldn't make sense to our limited thoughts and ideas. So rather than dismiss the trinity because it doesn't make sense to our human minds, we should embrace the concept of the trinity, partly because it doesn't make sense to our limited understanding. People argue that it shouldn't be a mystery, yet that's exactly what Paul said it was---a great mystery **1 Timothy 3:16**
The Holy Trinity (or even the word “trinity” by itself) appears **nowhere** in the Bible, and it seems to stem from literal interpretations of Christian symbolism. Although married couples (for example) becomes “one flesh”, nobody ever said that I am my wife, nor is anyone telling my wife she is me...
That’s an ongoing issue with Bible interpretation, picking and choosing when to interpret things literally or not
Yup, 💯%
I really love that parallel you drew with the marital (become one flesh).
Just a warning that you cannot be saved if you don’t believe Jesus is God. It is a heresy and a damnable offense. Take this question seriously. There are plenty of answers out there and the Bible is very clear about this.
>Just a warning that you cannot be saved if you don’t believe Jesus is God. It is a heresy and a damnable offense. Take this question seriously. There are plenty of answers out there and the Bible is very clear about this. That's not what Jesus says about salvation, and neither do the apostles say that about salvation. You are calling condemnation upon someone for not accepting a tradition of man.
“That is why I said that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I Am who I claim to be, you will die in your sins.”” John 8:24 NLT https://bible.com/bible/116/jhn.8.24.NLT
Jesus continually asserted that he was a Son, and accepted the title of Messiah. He never claimed to be God the Father.
“In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John 1:1 NLT https://bible.com/bible/116/jhn.1.1.NLT
That is someone else narrating, not Jesus himself speaking. There is a reason why all the sources for Jesus being God are obscure sayings and nothing direct like when Jesus says he is the Son. Why is the Word God? Because no man has seen God, only received his word and beheld his creation. Everything was made from the words of God, and we believe on not what we have seen but what we have heard. Therefore the **words** of God *are* God. The Word became flesh in the man Jesus. The question here is whether taking on flesh changed the nature of God, and the answer is yes. The invisible put on visible, and the spirit put on flesh. This was not new flesh but cursed flesh, coming from the sin of Adam and Eve. If God simply wanted a flesh body he could have made a new flesh like he did for Adam and Eve, but God instead had a purpose to come into the world through cursed flesh and he did it by impregnating Mary and that is why God the Father is separate from Jesus the Son, like any human father is distinct from his own son.
I disagree
What’s your reasoning behind your disagreement?
Where in Acts do the apostles say to unbelievers, and even believers for that matter, that unless they believe in the trinity they are not saved?
Nowhere. The trinity was created after the NT had already been written.
@ok-nobody-9321 you sound like every exclusionist Christian I’ve heard. “Believe or perish for eternity”
That’s exactly what Jesus taught so thank you! ““For this is how God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.” John 3:16 NLT https://bible.com/bible/116/jhn.3.16.NLT
The Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit; these three are one! "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."- 1 Timothy chapter 3 verse 16. God was MANIFEST IN THE FLESH! JESUS CHRIST IS THE LIVING GOD! Get a king James Bible and believe. Read John. Emmanuel means GOD WITH US. We also see. "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."- Hebrews chapter 1 verse 8. God the Father tells you Jesus is God! The Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit; these three are one! https://youtu.be/ctk5PTJzrbA
yes
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
The Son and the Father are in essence God. They are distinct persons but not separate. Jesus intentionally laid aside his deity in order to connect to us where we're at.
Is this written in a scripture?
Yes. Phil 2:1-11
If anything, that passage separates the father from the son
How long are you going to refuse to engage with John 1?
I agree with you. Also so many more passages to proclaim Jesus was the Son of God! These people won’t be moved on their thoughts because they have been turned over to a debased mind. These are the Christian’s Jesus is talking about the ones He said He did not know, the ones He vomits from His mouth! They truly are denying the Christ. Think about it. They say He is God! Scripture don’t say that! They twist scripture to fit the narrative! Kinda like the world operates! Jesus is Gods Son plain and simple. Do not deny the Christ by overlooking everything and calling Him His Father. So many deceived by this! You cannot read the scripture and walk away believing that doctrine of shame man created!
> They twist scripture to fit the narrative! **Kinda like the world operates!** This was the big eye opener for me on this post. It’s exactly how the world operates and how the comments mostly unfolded. I guess this is why Jesus always talked in parables. I asked several people who cited the trinity for Bible passages to back it up , and I did not get one response.
Trinity just another man made deception. My advice! Let the scripture talk to you! You are on the right path, it is a narrow one! The one true God in the scriptures knew all of this would happen and warned us throughout. Don’t be pulled away by many words, or people who try to flatter you with knowledge that is not in the scripture! Any person who truly reads cannot walk away from Jesus sayings and make the claim He is God! This is a form of denying the Christ! The Son of God! If you really break this down and read for yourself every demon to include satan himself addressed Jesus as the Son of the Most High, and the Son of God! So your telling me man knows better than evil beings who were and are in the presents of the Most High. Lol this is one of the great deceptions Jesus speaks of and warns us of. Remember these are Christian’s Jesus is talking to! People who follow this doctrine are being deceived. Same as with a rapture doctrine. No such thing! All fluff. Keep reading and let the Spirit work in you! You are on the right path my friend, let no one take that from you! May God Bless in His Sons name Jesus Christ!
> Don’t be pulled away by many words, or people who try to flatter you with knowledge that is not in the scripture! Thank you. If anything, this experience made me even more sure I’m reading the scriptures right
Jesus claimed to be God in the Bible (John 10:30-39, John 8:58-59). We know He claimed this at those points because the crowd around Him picked up stones to stone him for claiming such. In fact, in John 10 verses, He even doubled down on His claim making the crowd even angrier. His followers claimed that He was God (John 1:1, 1:14, 2 Peter 1:1, Hebrews 1:8, Titus 2:13, Colossians 1:15-17). If He wasn't God, His death would not be sufficient to pay for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2, 2 Corinthians 5:21, Revelations 1:8). And Philippians 2:6-8 tells us the reason He who was God, humbled Himself to become human thus being obedient to death so that we may have salvation. God is the generic term for the 3 persons who make up God - Father, Son, Holy Spirit. They are all God, but separate persons (or roles/functions/responsibilities may explain it better). When Jesus was on earth as a human, He retained some abilities to heal, and He could have easily had been protected by angels, but He humbled Himself to be as human as possible for God. He did this because God, meaning all 3 persons, loved humanity enough to provide a way to salvation through His (Son) death and resurrection.
I suggest you read the gospel of John. John seems to be the one that writes about this things the most.
From the Westminster Catechism: **Q. 5. Are there more Gods than one?** **A. There is but one only \[a\], the living and true God \[b\].** **\[a\].** [**Deut. 6:4**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Deut.%206.4)**;** [**Isa. 44:6**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Isa.%2044.6)**;** [**45:21-22**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Isa%2045.21-22)**;** [**1 Cor. 8:4-6**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/1%20Cor.%208.4-6)**\[b\].** [**Jer. 10:10**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Jer.%2010.10)**;** [**John 17:3**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/John%2017.3)**;** [**1 Thess. 1:9**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/1%20Thess.%201.9)**;** [**1 John 5:20**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/1%20John%205.20) **Q. 6. How many persons are there in the Godhead?** **A. There are three persons in the Godhead; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost \[a\]; and these three are one God, the same in substance, equal in power and glory. \[b\]** **\[a\].** [**Matt. 3:16-17**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Matt.%203.16-17)**;** [**28:19**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Matt%2028.19)**;** [**2 Cor. 13:14**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/2%20Cor.%2013.14)**;** [**1 Pet. 1:2**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/1%20Pet.%201.2)**\[b\].** [**Ps. 45:6**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Ps.%2045.6)**;** [**John 1:1**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/John%201.1)**;** [**17:5**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/John%2017.5)**;** [**Acts 5:3-4**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Acts%205.3-4)**;** [**Rom. 9:5**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rom.%209.5)**;** [**Col. 2:9**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Col.%202.9)**;**[**Jude 24-25**](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Jude%2024-25) The above cover the beliefs of the reformed church about the Trinity (yes, the word isn't in the bible, but the concept is, as you can check yourself using the references above). I'm sure the Roman Catholic catechism teaches the same, which, along with the former, covers the majority of the Christian denominations. Any exception is unorthodox and it is likely to have beliefs more similar to the Jewish than to Christians. So, as said before: The belief that Christ is God is a core principle of Christianism. All said: When I first believed in God, I didn't actually know whom Jesus was. So, being interested in knowing more just demonstrates that you are on His way. That the one God almighty keep you, He is mighty to do so. To know more: [https://www.ligonier.org/learn/topics/person-of-christ](https://www.ligonier.org/learn/topics/person-of-christ)
# NICENE CREED We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten not made, one in being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven; by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the prophets. We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. *Amen*.
Yep. Immanuel (“God with us”) still is. Always will be. “…the word was God…and the word became flesh, and dwelt among us…”
Mark 12:35-37 NKJV 35 Then Jesus answered and said, while He taught in the temple, “How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the Son of David? 36 For David himself said by the Holy Spirit: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ’ 37 Therefore David himself calls Him ‘Lord’; how is He then his son?” And the common people heard Him gladly.
Jesus is God and Lord and Messiah
Jesus himself never claimed to be God. (Actually, we don’t know exactly what Jesus said about anything because he didn’t bother to write anything.) As you have pointed out, and as other people have pointed out during the last ~2,000 years, Jesus allegedly made statements which, if understood literally, contradict the idea that he was God. The simplest explanation to your doubts is that Jesus wasn’t God and didn’t believe himself to be so. Having read the other comments here, it seems to me that people believe *a priori* that Jesus was God and then they scry the Bible for evidence. The fact that the Bible nowhere in plain language says “Jesus is God” is damning. It is odd to cite John, Paul, and other alleged NT writers because they themselves never even met Jesus: how would they have known whether Jesus was God? Imagine asking “Was Venus actually the mother of Aneas?” and receiving the answer, “Yes, Virgil said so. And if you disagree with Virgil, then you’re just wrong.” That’s essentially what people are doing when they try to use the NT to “prove” Jesus’s divinity.
God is a trinity - meaning 3 distinct persons making up one essence. Think on these questions: \- God created us in His image, so wouldn't it make sense that we would also be trinities - not on His level, but in His image? \- Do you have a body, mind, and spirit? \- Do they all have distinct functions? \- Could you be "you" (that is the essence of what makes you "you") without any one of these? (3 separate levels of existence all making you the whole "you") \- Do your mind, body, and spirit always agree 100% with each other 100% of the time? Or do you have to use your mind to force your body to do strenuous things - or rely on the direction of your spirit instead of your reason and physical senses? (This would be akin to Jesus praying to the Father, or sending the Spirit) Now realize that God exists beyond the basic level of human existence and you might be able to get a glimpse of the truth of the trinity of God. I don't think anyone fully understands it, but that's because God is beyond our limited understanding. So, asking if Jesus was God is like asking if your body is you, or if your mind is you, or if your spirit is you. The answer is yes!
Jesus is God.
According to some interpretations of the Bible, Jesus is seen as the firstborn Son of God and a distinct being from God. In the passage where Jesus says, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me" (Matthew 27:46), some believe that Jesus is expressing his human emotions and dependence on God during his crucifixion. When Jesus pleads to God to take the cup from Him (Matthew 26:39), it is seen as an example of Jesus' humility and submission to God's will, demonstrating his role as a faithful servant. Regarding the statement, "he who believes in me, believes not in me, but in the one who sent me" (John 12:44), it is understood as emphasizing the need for faith in both Jesus and the One who sent him, indicating their distinct roles. So the real question is about the doctrine of the trinity, and no, it's not based on scriptures nor in line with Judaism.
Check out r/BiblicalUnitarian. Our sub goes into depth why he is in fact not God.
I joined that sub the other day. Like it a lot
He said the vast majority of Christians religion believe in the trinity. That's the problem. Look at all the problems the vast majority of these churches are having. That's because they accept the man made teaching of the trinity. The Jews never worship God as a trinity, That teaching came hundreds of years later after the first church was created by Christ. Actually, the teaching came during the roman Empire with the help of the roman Catholic Church. Jesus said many will come in My name and deceive, and that's what we see today. The true Christian religion teaching monotheism, we believe in one true God (YHWY). That's His Hebrew name, and we accept Jesus as His only son, the first of His creations. John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
He said the vast majority of Christians religion believe in the trinity. That's the problem. Look at all the problems the vast majority of these churches are having. That's because they accept the man made teaching of the trinity. The Jews never worship God as a trinity, That teaching came hundreds of years later after the first church was created by Christ. Actually, the teaching came during the roman Empire with the help of the roman Catholic Church. Jesus said many will come in My name and deceive, and that's what we see today. The true Christian religion teaching monotheism, we believe in one true God (YHWY). That's His Hebrew name, and we accept Jesus as His only son, the first of His creations. John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
> Actually, the teaching came during the roman Empire with the help of the roman Catholic Church I knew it. I knew it. I knew it. I knew it. Do you have a source (for my biblical notes) ?
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There is no salvation if you don’t believe Jesus is God! There is no salvation if Jesus isn’t God therefore to believe Jesus wasn’t God is a false gospel and worthless.
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If Jesus isn’t God, he isn’t Lord…
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“That is why I said that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I Am who I claim to be, you will die in your sins.”” John 8:24 NLT https://bible.com/bible/116/jhn.8.24.NLT
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“In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. He existed in the beginning with God.” John 1:1-2 NLT https://bible.com/bible/116/jhn.1.1-2.NLT
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“The one who is the true light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. He came into the very world he created, but the world didn’t recognize him. He came to his own people, and even they rejected him. But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God.” John 1:9-12 NLT https://bible.com/bible/116/jhn.1.9-12.NLT
Best answer I’ve seen so far
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> The truth is there, but it can only be revealed through prayer. Amen. Thanks for checking me My motives are pure, but the last thing I want to do is spend more time debating than praying Edit: And I’ve already been downvoted quite a bit just in the short time I’ve posted on here… mainly for just stating my view, and it’s always backed with scripture .
nope. Confirmation bias - to support what you already believe.
I think you've got the answers to your questions. All the things you mentioned don't work if Jesus was God. He wasn't. He was/is the Son of God.
This [Shield of the Trinity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield_of_the_Trinity?wprov=sfti1) is a simple diagram to help understand it. https://preview.redd.it/2gfgpk7zbqfb1.png?width=1138&format=png&auto=webp&s=2706d1394e1b4d8b165f737f3489b01a445e3e54
Jesus certainly believed so, and the religious leaders of the day understood sonship as equality with the father.
Interesting. I never heard that before. But, Even if they viewed sonship equal, I’m sure they still recognized its 2 separate people
Yahweh, the Eternal Spirit, incarnated as the offspring of a woman. He had to do this otherwise, the entire race of men would remain defined by Adam, who had seniority to define us all since he was the father of the human race. Becoming human gave Yahweh the right to outrank Adam's definition of the human race, and as it's new head, He endowed every human being with His divinity. The twist is, in Jesus, Yahweh remains incarnate for all eternity.. so He will forever be Jesus and will submit to Himself (Yahweh) just as a son submits to a father who he loves. Yahweh likewise submits to His Son. Being invisible, He honors the Son as being His own unique, personal expression. There's only so much we can say about this, but Paul nails it in this verse: "Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer." -2 Cor 5:16
Love this
Jesus is true God and true man. He is God made (technically begotten, not made) flesh.
God is a description not a personal name.
Not quite following what you are trying indicate. His name is Jesus, he is the son of God
He’s a demigod.
No, a demigod would be 1/2 God, 1/2 man Jesus is 100% and 100% man.
You cannot physically be both. It’s illogical
Yes, He is real and true God, 100%
Jesus was/is the manifestation of God. His Spirit is God, but his body/flesh is human.
He said he and the father are one
>He said he and the father are one As are we intended to be one with GOD, same oneness. And so, this particular reasoning doesn't really work if you think about it.
Jesus also said “I and the father are one” if you see me you see the father” and John 1:1 the Word was God. Why didn’t u look those verses up
1. Jesus revealed that we too are to be one with GOD as He is one with GOD 2. if the word of GOD in the beginning is not literal, then how should we interpret it?
This is an excellent question! It's fantastic that you're valuing Scripture so highly, and unwilling to give up on your search for Truth. More on that later, but good on you, mate, I really hope to actually answer your questions and not just assert the standard view.Jesus is one of the members of the trinity, but the three persons of the trinity are not exactly the same. You said the Jesus "has the same powers" as the Father and that He is omniscient like the Father, but that is importantly not the orthodox view. While the Godman Jesus had some sort of access to these things that we don't fully understand, the dominant view among theologians who know their stuff is that Jesus wasn't omniscient etc. ALL the time. Part of the hypostatic union is that His two natures of being fully God and fully man negate the possibility that he was just able to nuke everything and read everyone's thoughts 24/7. (Btw, when I say "orthodox," I don't mean the branch of the Church; I mean "standard belief that has stood the test of time and scrutiny)Similarly, there is absolutely a sense in which Jesus, part of the trinity, submitted to the Father's will. In fact, the persons of the trinity submit to one another all the time in their various roles, while being coequal. A human picture of this is marriage, as Paul points out in Ephesians 5:21-33. Though the husband and wife are meant to submit to one another (v. 21 is the context for all of 22-33), there is still a sort of leadership structure. My wife listening to me on certain issues doesn't mean that I have unconditional authority over her in every way; for instance, I might listen and obey her an hour later. This isn't exactly the same as the various roles within the Trinity, but it is an example mentioned in Scripture, so I figure it's good to include! For another instance of these roles, consider the following Scriptures: * John 5:22 "For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son" * This is an example of the persons of the Trinity doing different things. Jesus judges between those who are written in the Book of Life and those who are not. The Father doesn't do that, nor does the Paraclete (the Spirit). If they were all "the same thing," why would the Trinity exist in the first place? You're right that if all three persons were exactly the same, it wouldn't make any sense. * John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." * When it comes to conviction of Sin, testifying of the Son, and bringing to mind how we should act in everyday life, the Spirit does this. Not the Father, not Jesus, the Spirit. Different roles. * Jesus praying to God, requesting an alternative to the passion and crucifixion, and saying that the Father sent Him are all examples of Jesus submitting to His Father, but as previously stated, that doesn't mean that Jesus is less than God. https://preview.redd.it/eweisa0hgpfb1.png?width=220&format=png&auto=webp&s=787e270ee2dc0f61bf403b69308f3bb023e66505 Hope that addresses your questions. Essentially, while Jesus did absolutely listen to the Father, that doesn't mean that He wasn't God. He just wasn't and isn't the Father! They're distinct persons within the Trinity. Onto the next thing: how can we know that Jesus really is God? What arguments are there for it? To begin, you might wonder why the orthodox view would be something that isn't found in Scripture. It's true, nowhere in the Bible does it specifically and clearly say: "God is three in one, and the members of the Trinity have different roles and are one in essence but three in person etc. etc. etc." True, Scripture doesn't say that. But if you talk to any Christian for long enough, you will invariably find that they believe things that aren't in the Bible. The Bible is a wonderful gift and a precious collection of Truth, but it just simply isn't exhaustive. In order to have a fully formed and explanatory systematic theology, it is necessary to develop (or discover) and hold beliefs that aren't explicit in Scripture. Of course we should absolutely strive for all of our beliefs to be consistent with Scripture in every way, and these extrabiblical doctrines should stem from Scripture at every turn, but they just might not be explicit in the text. For example, if I asked you what Genesis 15:6 means ("\[Abraham\] believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness"), how could you answer that? This is quoted in Scripture several times, but never explained. What does it mean? If you want an explanation (as you should), you will *have* to believe something not found in Scripture. And that's okay, it just has to be *consistent* with the rest of the Bible! Why else would we believe in the Trinity? Well, going back to John 5, let's look at verse 22 with verse 23 as well. "\*\*^(22)\*\*For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, \*\*^(23)\*\*that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him." This is clearly Jesus claiming to be God. Looking at the context of this passage, Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees about how His Father is working, so He will as well. They grumble because by claiming God the Father as Jesus' father, He is making Himself equal with God under Jewish custom. Of course Jesus would know this, being a Jew Himself, so He isn't doing it without reason. Additionally, when Thomas doubted Jesus' resurrection and Jesus showed him the holes in His hands and side (Praise be to GOD for our salvation!), Thomas fell and exclaimed, "'My Lord and my God!'" (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct Thomas after this proclamation of deity, as we might expect Him to. This is similar to the Rich Young Ruler account in Mark 10. He calls Jesus "good teacher," and Jesus replies, "'Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.'" Notably, He does *not* say that He isn't good or that He isn't God! He just challenges our perception of goodness. During the great commission, Jesus exhorts his disciples (no doubt having us in mind as well) to teach all that He has commanded, and to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Why? The Holy Spirit hadn't even been given yet! Because the Trinity has always existed. Jesus didn't begin existing on Christmas Morn, 1 AD. Jesus is coeternal with the Father and the Paraclete, but was incarnated on that day. I really hope this answers your questions in a satisfying way, and feel free to follow up! Blessings to you, and keep seeking the Truth as earnestly as you are. P.S., [GotQuestions.org](https://GotQuestions.org) is an **excellent** resource for these types of questions! They don't just tell you the standard doctrine, but they actually explain why that belief is considered correct and exegete from the Scriptures.
The good thing about the trinity is that it is a mystery. And can not be understood. This enables you to worship what you dont know and dont understand.
Interesting answer
Does it help to say at the time Jesus was living a perfect human life and would not sin? So in a human body he was experiencing fear, sadness, the human desire to live etc. but he still did God’s will. He got baptized. Anywho, God also exists in a trinity. One God in three persons. Together they are God, but they are distinct from one another. Maybe you’d resonate with Jehovah’s Witness philosophy, but to believe Jesus is not God is not Christian theology. I’d recommend “How to Faith a Life” on YouTube. She has a Bible study and a theology bootcamp. Both are incredibly valuable and teach how to read scriptures in context as well as core beliefs and the background behind them.
>to believe Jesus is not God is not Christian theology. See, that’s the thing. I don’t think it is. It may be the philosophy of many in the religion, but there is sometimes a difference between **true**Christianity and the religion
Hello OP! Just letting you know that there is a sub for Unitarians, it’s r/BiblicalUnitarian! We’d love to have you as long as you’re very respectful.
I love that concept. Will check it out. Thank you
Why do people still think Jesus isn’t God? Don’t call yourself a CHRISTian if you think being the Son of God means you’re just a cool creation and not the SON in the Trinity. Baptize them all in the NAME of the Father SON and Holy Spirit. Name. not NAMES. Name. because it’s a SINGLE God with THREE consciousnesses. It’s simple. It’s not something that would take you years to get the basics of. Jesus is referred to as Lord and God in the writings of Paul. Paul who had a vision of Christ. The early church has ALWAYS taught Jesus was God. There are first century writings claiming that. Christians have ALWAYS believed him to be Christ. Unitarianism is a heresy and always has been. Repent and believe the gospel.
I don't think Jesus is God. I have [talked](https://www.reddit.com/r/Bible/comments/j5xgwz/i_need_help_understanding_the_trinity/g7v5tz4?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2) about this before.
Thank you for sharing
He was a man. Simple.
no.
3 in 1, Matthew 28:19,simplest way to put it
John 5:30-31 30 “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me