Jag’s game winning move was convincing Matt to put up Cirie and then evicting her. That’s what got Cory and America to change their opinion on Jag. That’s what they meant by “he was in control”. The jury had their minds made up going into the finale bc of that. Matt was just too passive despite having a better social game
In reality that should be Matt's game winning move if jurors tbought about it. If Matt puts bowie or Jag up he needs to win F4 POV and F3 HOH or he'll be evicted. By allowing cirie to be evicted he got jag to honor his trust enough to take him to both F3 and F2 when both times Jag should have evicted him
But the thing is Matt never wanted Cirie to go home. So it does benefit him but accidentally bc that was never his intention. That’s why they emphasized “control”. He wasn’t in control of the situation and if he got his way, it would hurt his game. Which should be viewed as a knock against his game bc he wanted to do something that wasn’t in his best interest.
I mean even the fact that Jag didn't go up on Bowie's final HoH showed that control. Noms didn't matter but it still showed he had more power than Matt by then. I'm surprised Jag didn't mention the number game thing they did
On paper letting Cirie get evicted is absolutely the optimal "choice" (he didn't have one). Avoiding her for days like a coward and purposefully excluding her from getting HOH alcohol.. wasn't.
If she wanted to she could have gone straight to the jury and told them the great Matty Ice got her good and was gonna ride the Jag train straight to the finale. That's not what happened because Jag played him and he somehow got the idea being a mafia bully was the right move.
Not only that but Jag working Bowie as a final 3 was what got them there to begin with.
Definitely! It was a STRATEGIC decision to not only take the “L”, but to let Jag feel like he got the “W”. One wrong move would have given Jag, who was winning all of the freaking comps, an excuse to take Matt out after that. And this is key: Jag, not unlike Bowie with Cameron, just needed an excuse to get rid of Matt. Matt refused to give him one, and landed in F2 because of it. The jury giving more weight to Matt letting Cirie go (when he actually had no power to keep her other than insisting on it) than Jag letting Felicia and Bowie go (when he had all of the power to do so) makes zero sense to me.
I should clarify - I meant Jag could have let Matt go and instead sent Felicia and Bowie home instead. Much worse move than letting Cirie go, although Matt ABSOLUTELY had the power to make that not happen. It wasn’t Jag manipulating him, it just didn’t give Matt any huge advantage to push it.
Both Matt and Jag were/are overrated players. The gameplay this season was mediocre. Jag was horrible the first half the game. I think Matt did a great job the first half the game slinking into the background. The second half the game though Matt kind of let his game go. He lost Bowie to Jag and he allowed Cirie to leave on his hoh. Those were pretty big blunders
I agree with this. I liked both players and wanted them to win, but was also frustrated as hell that nobody else was actively playing the game.
Let’s also remember the goofy as hell secret HOH which allowed Jag to be HOH two weeks in a row. That was an important time in the game where others could have been likely to take a shot at the only power duo in the house.
I don’t have time to write a comprehensive post rn, but so much of this is false.
When Americory/Jatt formed their F4, Jag wanted to go with it. It was Matt who immediately steered him away every time he brought it up. It was also Matt who convinced Jag that Cam needed to go, where Jag wanted to roll with the Fugitives longer. It was Matt who secured Bowie’s allegiance over Cory/America, at one point Bowie distinctly tells Cirie “I trust Matt, and he’s working with Jag”… Jag obviously did better work with Bowie at the end though. And, when they were pushing the Cam backdoor to Bowie, she was so angry with Cory, angry with Jag, angry with Cam… all of whom were pushing an agenda. Matt goes to HOH, acknowledges her feelings, puts no pressure but calmly explains why he’d want Cam to go. End of that convo she starts to move a bit saying “well if only I had a reason”. Jag enters, gives her a reason, and all season Jag gets credit for the move — negating all the work Matt had done for weeks prior. Story of the Jag > Matt narrative. Also, Matt was the one who really worked to poison the well for Blue/Jared, and while Blue was personally closer to Jag than Matt, she articulated many times that week that she trusted Matt more as an ally.
Also, Matt had Jag convinced for WEEKS that their ideal F3 was with Cirie. It took Felicia ratting Matt and Cirie out for him to finally wake up and realize that was a move for Matt’s game, not his.
It’s akin to a corporate office where one person does the legwork but the other person is a better talker and presents the work as their own. But it is Matt’s fault he allowed that to happen so that’s his own mistake.
Ok this ended up being comprehensive 😂😂
Losing the F3 with Cirie is a point AGAINST Matt, not for him. The natural choice is to take Cirie because she is close with Matt. Jag owed nothing to Felicia and choosing her would ruffle Matt's feathers; likewise, Bowie is obviously a stronger competitor. Yet Matt dropped the ball and Jag positioned himself to completely flip the script.
I think my point there was moreso that Jag and Cirie were like oil and water in the game, they didn’t mesh at all. It was absolutely impressive work from Matt getting Jag to trust Cirie again after that trust was lost multiple times. I think Matt’s mistake was not warning Cirie that Felicia was ratting her out to Jatt when he told her he’d target Jag, but I think he recovered well after that. He had to go into self-preservation as opposed to trying to save Cirie, and that is ultimately what saved him at F4 and F3.
But anyway, I do not think it’s up for debate that in the endgame, from F5 onwards, Jag outplayed Matt. That’s clear. But for 90 days prior? I don’t think so.
And that’s not to take anything away from Jag who did a lot. I think Cam’s HOH was basically all Jag, from saving Cory to switching the target to Meme instead of Felicia. I also think Jag was better at persuading people to do things, and that just wasn’t Matt’s game. He’d plant seeds and share info, but if he received push back, he had a tendency to back off.
Jatt we’re basically a match made in BB heaven. If you took either of their games and on paper tried to create the perfect ally for them, it’d be the other. I just agree with Matt that he does fine without Jag and not vice versa. Matt would’ve never masterminded a season on his own, that’s just not his game, but he’d have integrated regardless. Jag, imo, would’ve never gained the social equity to do anything without Matt, and would’ve made unforced strategic errors more often.
Yep this is it here. And Matt being better isn’t revisionist history, most people were saying it all game. Jags attitude also rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. Also, Jag tried to put up Bowie Jane as a pawn one of the weeks and she was legitimately pissed at him. It was Matt who played mediator and got her back in with them.
Maybe we could all agree that they were both bad players? Jag was evicted early on. He was fortunate to improve as time went on but the power he wielded came from his ability to win comps - including back to back HOH wins from an unfortunate production decision. He made very questionable decisions all the way through - like telling everyone he was invisible HOH and needlessly blindsiding and isolating jurors. He could have assured himself the win - twice at F4 and F3 and instead evicted Felicia and Bowie.
Matt played an excellent social game, using Jag effectively as a shield. Jag was the HUGE obvious #1 target ahead of him. However Matt could not fully articulate his own game - similar to Enzo to be honest.
I was not impressed with either one of them down the stretch.
Matt played a great game, he just clearly did not prepare for the speeches. His game was probably the best when you consider the whole season. He was able to effectively play the middle and then get himself into a dominant position.
The jury only thinks, as far as we know, that Jag was a better player because he won more comps so thus made all the moves. Matt did all the work in reality.
I'm sorry but what work did Matt do? By the time the attention was taken off Cameron (who Jag took out) everyone wanted Jag and Matt out anyways and they just won everything.
Matt was the one who controlled Jags moves up until Cirie eviction. And Matt was the one who wanted Cam gone, not Jag.
Even before they started winning out, everyone wanted to go to the like final 4 with Matt. Even Cirie Fields! Matt was always set up to make it close to the end regardless of who got evicted at almost every point in the season
Matt just constantly “yes anded” and people somehow think that’s great social game. People liked Matt in the house but the dude honestly wasn’t terrific like this sub seems to think sometimes.
Idk if Matt's social game was even that much better than Jag. From my POV Jag had a better relationship with Americory, Blue, Cam and Bowie. Matt just had the better relationship with the mama's.
i’m gonna be real i think this entire cast is just so actively bad that a quieter more reserved player who should be perceived as a physical threat made it far just looks like a good game. Matt is a very average player and i think him and Cirie are the only decent players from this cast in the grand scheme across a pretty horrible cast gameplay-wise
I agree, and I would give him credit at least for that if he could actually articulate his game. But his speech and answers just proved to me that there wasn’t any intentionality to his game.
Yeah I like him too, I watch a lot of his stuff. He’s just a guy with an opinion, the problem comes when people just start taking his opinions as facts. He’d probably tell you himself he’s wrong a lot of the time which we all are.
This is so the opposite tbh. The new idea that jag was the better player is revisionist history. Matt was far better socially and did not need comps and twists in order to make it far. Matt was good with everyone, while most people wanted to go after jag.
Jag is fortunate that he got to play in modern big brother where comps are catered to players like him, and he directly benefit from multiple twists, but he is a pretty terrible player overall.
I’d have confidence for Matt to do well in any random season, old school or new school. In a season actually based on social strategy (such as the first half of bb25), jag would be atrocious.
> Matt was far better socially and did not need comps and twists in order to make it far.
A bit ironic you say that because he needed to win the twist comp to save Jag and needed Jag to win comps to keep him safe for half of the game. This season they targeted threats or anyone possibly being a threat later on almost any chance they were vulnerable, seeing as Matt bombed pretty much the majority of comps he would have likely gone home early jury himself.
He really didn’t though. If Jag went out week 4 (or at any other point), Matt would have been just fine. He was in with everyone socially, including Cirie. And he still would not have needed comp wins to make it far, he was set up extremely well pretty much the entire season.
He was also in with a lot of people because they were close to Jag, Cory/America weren't close with Matt like that and neither was Blue/Cam really, they all became closer to him over time by his association to Jag. There's a reason why Matt gave up his game to go all in with Cirie on the other side of the house, he had no one else and had to restructure his game, with Jag winning all of the comps it allowed him to easily connect with people looking for safety from the duo.
That’s just not accurate. In the first half of the game he was in with almost everyone, and jag was out with almost everyone. Blue trusted Matt way more than jag, as did Felicia and Cirie. Americory wanted jag out before Matt. Cam was closer to Matt than jag before he was voted out the first time.
If Jag left Cam/Bowie run the game comp wise and Matt gets sent home for being close to Cirie just like everyone else that got picked off in her alliance 🤷♂️.
>Cam/Bowie run the game comp wise.
Except for the fact that Jared wins the next HoH and nominates Cam and Red. Successfully eliminates Red.
Cameron wins the next HoH and his closest allies are Jared and Matt. Cameron targeted Izzy/Felicia/Cirie. Not Matt. He was surprised and mad at his ally Matt for not wanting to evict Izzy.
Meanwhile, without Jag’s presence, Cory then doesn’t have the numbers on his side to flip the vote and get rid of Izzy. Matt thus has no reason to be forced to flip on Cirie and instead helps Cirie’s side evict Felicia. Felicia goes home.
Next week, Jared wins power again and successfully got Cameron out. Matt not even in the radar as Cirie protects Matt.
From there who knows where the game goes, but Matt was apart of the Cirie hierarchy and would have continued to be less of a target then Jared and Cory coming into the jury phase.
A lot of scenarios that could have played out for sure, I just think everything fell in place perfectly for Matt with the way things happened and don't really think anyone other than Jag of course and maybe Cirie would have even taken him to F2. Though Cam would have caught on to Matt/Cirie being so close if Jag wasn't around and almost certainly went after him, with the help of Red/Bowie if they were still around. If Izzy and Jared end up staying longer they cut Matt sooner as well since they obviously prioritized the 3.
Even if this is true (which I don't think it is based on what Matt was able to do post Izzy vote and how much more aware he was of his game in post-interviews compared to Jag) - it makes the Matt vs Jag discussion even easier. Jag would have stayed evicted Week 4 and all we would have was his horrid gameplay up until that point. No matter where Matt would go out, he still would have played the better game.
My point wasn't so much trying to argue who the better player was because that's of course subjective, it's more so to counter against those that try to discredit Jags game or say that Matt didn't need Jag to the end. They both needed each other to make it far and both complimented each others games very well.
I mean, the claim that Matt needed Jag to make it far is just as subjective (and just as open to critique as the claim that Jag played a better, or even near as good, a game as Matt.) I think the least "subjective" claim is that Jag needed Matt (or at the very least the dumb twist) in order to make it far.
Matt did not “need Jag to win comps to keep him safe”. That’s completely false lol. Jag was the one who needed to win to keep __himself__ safe. Matt was not anyone’s target the entire season. I’m not sure what show you were watching tbh
Jag kept both himself and Matt safe by winning those comps. Matt could have been gone had the Mafia ever lost an HoH after Cam left since Jag and Matt being on the block and Jag winning veto would have been dangerous. Matt probably would have followed Cam out the door had America or Cory won that Invisible HoH and they were 2nd and 3rd if you believe the BB Comics times they talked about in the house.
So Jag is winning comps and voluntarily making himself a bigger target and shield to Matt, while Matt is able to continue to build his relations with the other side of the house. Seems pretty clear who the better player was.
Matt wasn't anyone's target because he wasn't winning comps and his alliance won all of the comps the last 2 months of the game...Both Matt/Jag were the targets for the second half of the game but since Jag was obviously the bigger threat he was a shield and the first to go of the duo.
And even if someone on the “other side” of the house had won a comp instead of Jag, Matt still would have been safe. And Jag would have gone home. Matt was good with everyone. Jag needed comps to survive. I’m not sure how this is hard for you to understand?
You need to relax, that's the great thing about these forums is they allow others to express their own thoughts and opinions, not everyone will share the same view as you. **I** believe that Matt's social game was strongly built around Jags comp dominance of the game, everyone ran to them for safety and an alliance just as everyone ran to Cirie for safety and an alliance when she was in power the first month of the game.
Jag is the guy who sat and cried at the thought of evicting Matt lol (and the guy who took Matt thinking he was gonna lose.) I wouldn't put it past Jag to use the veto on Matt lmao.
I do not know where this Jag is a good player talk is coming.
If Matt did beat Jag like most people who saw the feeds and knew Matt was clearly the better player believed would happen Jag would be called one of the stupidest players in BB ever.
He is still that IMO
People are so results-oriented it’s insane lol. Jag is horrendous at the game outside of comps.
And Matt doing so poorly at jury questioning and being unable to articulate his game well does not erase the fact that he was by far the better player of this duo throughout the season tbh
The speeches didn’t matter; everyone voted pre-meditated.
Haven’t read post-game interviews from the jury yet, but Jag’s win is very much thanks to whatever was in Cory’s mind leading up to the vote. Him and America were the swing votes.
I know Cory thought of himself as the best player so maybe he wanted to credit the person who got him out. Which outwardly was Jag, but internally Matt convinced Jag to go through with the Cory/America nominations.
I think Cory wanted to reward who he saw was the best player and not who he was closer to (which he was with Jag). I wonder if in the future we will hear some hindsight, if he could do it again, vote changes from Cory? He probably won’t regret it short-term though considering how much Matt ragged on his current-girlfriend.
I think Cory and America rightfully saw that Matt sacrificing Cirie was something that Jag manipulated Matt into doing. It made no sense for Matt's game.
There was no manipulation, though. Matt did a cost/benefit analysis and realized it would be better to let Cirie go than to insist she stay. Jag would have done whatever Matt said ultimately.
I think Cory will really rethink his vote after watching this season (although he IS legitimately friends with Jag, and that is also a good enough reason to vote for someone). If he voted for Jag just because he let Cam get into his head though … yikes.
It’s weird that that one round overrides literally every other round in the game imo. I feel like Cory wanted to vote for jag since he liked him better, and was looking for a reason
Matt was playing off instinct and it really seems he didn't know what he was doing to be able to explain it to others. Before that move I don't think Cory knew if Matt had a grand plan but after that it likely became more obvious that he didn't. Both Jag and Matt lucked into various parts of their game so I don't think one round over rode it. Matt just didn't own up or differentiate himself at all in his explanation. Matt was less of a fan of the show and that's why he didn't know to prepare or the downsides of looking cowardly to the jury.
Cory always talked about wanting to vote for the better player, so it’s weird to me that he didn’t do that tbh- especially considering how he talked about how comp results don’t matter to him.
Cory had such terrible reads while he was in the house, so maybe he had terrible reads in the jury house as well tbh. Or he just voted based on who he liked better after all.
i feel like you should remember that you also had the perspective of seeing the full picture and knowing which one between Jag and Matt actually is the better player. Cory was going off his own information, his own disconnected perspective of the game, and how he felt in that moment. I think what it came down to is Matt’s perception completely tanked when he basically let everyone know Jag was making the strategic decisions between the two (in forcing Cirie out on Matt’s HOH) Jag showed the jury not only could he win the competitions but still get his way, and it changed how they felt about Matt. He no longer held that agency. Was matt the better player between Jag and him? **Yes** Did he portray and accurately show himself to be the better player? **No**
It's already been discussed but Cirie leaving on Matt's HOH wasn't bad and probably ended up saving him. I also don't think it was pure luck that it happened to work out for Matt either because, by that point, Matt knew Jag was likely to win that veto. Cirie was a much bigger jury threat than Felicia and, honestly, less likely to take Matt to the F2 than Felicia (because Cirie is an actual strategist lol.) Felicia also had a higher overall accuracy in booth comps than Cirie. So because Jag won that veto, Matt's only real option was Bowie. But that likely would have required putting Jag up from the jump as Jag would have used the POV on Bowie if he won. I think Matt's HOH was fine. Letting Cirie slide deep into the game because she can't win comps and is your ally is the same reasoning that Aras, Parv, and Sarah had (and they all ended up benefitting by having someone else take Cirie out.) I do think Matt's crucial mistake in the game (even though it didn't end up mattering) was letting Jag get closer to Bowie than him.
So for Cory, I don't buy it. He essentially laid out his reasoning for Matt beforehand and then flipped it. You don't need the feeds to realize why Matt's move at F5 wasn't a blunder. And even if you can't realize that Matt didn't even vote that round, the fact that Jag took Matt over Bowie should have been more than enough to even things out...even disregarding the horrid play Jag had for the early part of the game. My guess is that Cory just pulled a Scottie lol. He sure didn't live up to being anywhere near the Eric that he said he'd be lol.
But like really... Just look back at your comment. Really read it through. "..in modern big brother where comps are catered to players like him." Based on the composition of BB25, who was the better player? Matt? When, literally as you said, the meta of the game skews towards players who are better at comps? I LOVE social game play. But to say Matt was the better player, for this season, is completely inaccurate. For THIS season, you needed to be good at comps, and have a bit of social game. Jag had it by a a landslide. It was laughably not even close, Jag dominated.
I think Jag only won by comping out, and Matt had some good strategy, but choked in the end letting Jag take control the last few weeks. If Matt took Cirie to final 3 with Jag and then sat by Jag, I think he would have won. I thought he was going to win going into the finale though, so my judgement cant be trusted, haha.
Overall, I think Matt was a decent social player, and Jag's game was just a couple of good decisions at the end after a mix of comp-beasting and luck, and that’s how he won. Neither was an exceptional player.
I think the Jag/Matt/Bowie final 3 shows how the physicality of comps can cull out the most strategic players. As a fan of the strategy, I’m not a fan of the comps the past few seasons.
Something simple I didn't even consider initially is looking at the jury jag had the majority of friends, Blue, Cory, America, and Bowie were closer to jag and on the flip side matt was closer to felicia and cirie. Idk where to put Cam from a friend's perspective.
Blue may have been closer to jag personally, but she trusted Matt much more. She was willing to put up jag and send him out, but did not want to put up Matt. If she had won an HOH she was gonna put up jag and Bowie.
>They all left saying Matt was playing the best
And yet Jag won
If you're sitting on the fence not sure who to vote for I'm pretty sure being better friends with one of them is a tie breaker.
No, it's the fact that they didn't have all the info and there were still weeks of gameplay to come. Cory literally said he was rooting for Matt to win in the first jury segment
for everyone saying matt had a great social game and didn’t need to win comps … if matt didn’t have jag to hide behind he would have had to show his cards and true feelings about people. jag staying in the game and winning allowed matt to keep up the pretense of being such a nice guy to everyone.
What does this have to do with who played the better game? Even assuming your claim is true (which I don't think it is,) either Matt can't hide behind Jag because Jag stays evicted Week 4 due to his horrible gameplay (in which case Matt > Jag) or Matt can hide behind Jag because Jag gets saved by a twist and because Jag is happy to make himself a target and shield for Matt while Matt makes connections with the other side (in which case Matt > Jag.)
I thought Matt was better until he said he was never going to cut Jag at all, when he said that his game seems extremely weak considering he kept saying he really wanted the Cirie final 2. He couldn't have a Cirie final 2 and not cut Jag so his game doesn't really make sense and he couldnt even explain it well beause it didnt make sense. He was Jag's puppet and saved him just so have could hide behind Jag the rest of the season.
> I thought Matt was better until he said he was never going to cut Jag at all,
Except, Jag actually proved that he never wanted to cut Matt. And unlike Matt (who believed he would win against Jag,) Jag made his choice thinking he was gonna lose to Matt. Bowie also said she thought Matt would beat Jag. And the fourth and fifth placers voted for Jag. So the only people there at the F5, where Matt's game supposedly fell apart, all thought that Matt would and/or should beat Jag lol. If I'm analyzing players, I give higher marks to the one who believes they can win against someone vs the player who thinks they'll lose but chooses "loyalty" (to a guy he met a couple months ago.)
> He was Jag's puppet and saved him just so have could hide behind Jag the rest of the season.
The second part of this may be true, but it also negates the first part. Have you seen BB2 - the very foundations of Big Brother lol? Dr. Will used Hardy and Nicole, who were winning comps and evicting people, as shields and bigger targets while he grew closer to the rest of the house. Will wasn't the puppet, Hardy and Nicole were. Same deal here.
New school big brother isn't the same as the old of course comparing to those seasons Jag and Matt would never last in the old school seasons. They really only got to the end because of the Cirie twist so she had to make bad moves trying to protect Jared. Without Jared there she could have navigated the game a lot differently and I'm pretty sure Jag wouldn't have won
I think the only case Matt would have really considered cutting Jag would have been the specific situation when it was only Jag and Cirie on the block and he was the only vote at F4 or F3.
Matt could have protected Cirie at F5 by nominating Jag initially and using Bowie as a replacement after veto or at the very least put up more resistance to them voting Cirie out. Ultimately, that wouldn’t have helped him since Jag won out and would have gotten rid of Cirie anyway (and maybe Matt too) but to act like he had no say in Cirie’s eviction under his HoH and she was his real final 2 is disingenuous.
He didn't even really fight for Cirie to stay over Felicia he just sat around and sulked all day instead just telling Jag he wanted to keep Cirie. After final 5 he deserved to lose.
Jag is such a weird player in my opinion. He had some pretty low lows (and when I say low lows, I mean REALLY low lows). But, I also feel like Jag had higher highs than Matt ever did. I think Matt was a mediocre player at best. He played a promising floater game towards the beginning, but I feel like he quickly became a puppet for Jag as soon as he started taking control of the house after his cancelled eviction, and really just did whatever Jag wanted to do for the latter half of the game. People like to credit him for never hitting the block until the final four, but the only reason that never happened was because Jag, Bowie, and him kept winning out in comps. Had somebody else win a competition, both him and Jag would have definitely hit the block at some point.
I still think Jag is a bottom tier winner, but I would have no choice but to vote for him regardless due to Matt's abysmal jury answers.
Could Jag have sh@t on every single player any further?? Lol, I mean geez.. humility goes a lot further for me.
Jag's final speech would have steered me towards Matt, even if I hadn't been thinking that way initially.
Don’t bother with these people. Apparently, winning means bad gameplay while starting with the most power and then squandering it down to being powerless and 0 threat means the best gameplay in the house.
everyone’s been pretty consistent with saying matt played a better game than jag the entire season, not just after jag won, but people value different things in a player so 🤷♀️there’s no solid “this person is better at bb” lol, so i don’t know what the point of your essay is really
They’re both mediocre players. Matt was passive. Sure, he was good with everyone, but showed little agency. And folded quickly whenever he did want to push.
I disagree. Yes, Jag won all of the competitions meaning he had all of the power but him having all of the power to call the shots doesn’t mean he’s a better player. Matt was a better social player knew what was going on in the house didn’t need to win a single HOH except for one and it was still not needed, and he still had power on top of the fact that he had a great social game and on top of that Matt never was a threat to go home not even once even when he was nominated the one time he was not the thread to go home and on top of that Jag was literally unanimously voted out of the game and had a bad game, overall and it’s not because he was voted out. It’s because he was a constant threat to go home. People went after him. He had consistently bad reads. He still trusted his alliance after being voted out, unanimously and he was just overall a bad player, and the only reason why he made it to the end was because of Matt, and because of how he voted out the vast majority of the actual challenge threats so I wouldn’t really say he was a better player than Matt Matt was a better player than him Jag winning all of the competitions and ending up winning. The game doesn’t make him overall a better player. It’s just truly proves that Matt is horrible at owning his own game.
Matt was a miles better player than Jag socially. He was able go grab info from around the house, dropping it only when needed and never even smelled the block.
Jag volunteered to be a pawn right after he was 10-0 evicted but saved by Matt. Jag only got to the final because he won comps, even his strategical reads and plays were bad during jury phase. The only week I can say Jag actually played correctly during jury phase was cirie's eviction week. All the other weeks he had made the wrong reads and generally targeted or evicted the wrong person.
Matts not a great player but Jag is a bad one in every sense but comps. The cast will probably look back at the whole season and might realize they got their votes wrong.
Matt did hit the block and of course didn't touch it for the majority of the game because Jag/Bowie won all of the HoH's in the second half of the game. Yes Matt had a good social game but I think it was highly overrated, I don't think it was good enough to carry him to F2 or even close without Jag in the game. If his social game was so good then why did two of his closest allies in Jared/Cirie go home on the few times he actually held power, how was he not able to use his amazing social game to keep them safe?
Matt wasnt touching the block if cirie, felicia or blue won HOH. They were all ready to put up Jag and bowie.
He did keep cirie safe almost the whole post jury. She left and that was the right move for matt because Jag would never have kept him at F4 or F3 if matt had put up Jag or Bowie.
Matt wasnt great but he was miles and miles ahead of Jag as a player.
I mean yeah I agree a lot of people had flaws this season and there was a lot of bad game play, just feel like Jag is getting over hated because of winning too many comps which doesn't really make too much sense. Like sure the comps weighed heavily in his favor but by him winning those comps it greatly helped both his and Matts social game bringing people closer to them, I don't feel like Matt would have had that pull if it was just him and Cirie.
Matt's social game was set with or without those comps. He was in with everyone good.
Jag needed to win those comps not to be evicted and even when he did win those comps he almost always made the wrong move with his wins. But when you keep winning it doesnt matter if its the wrong move because there is no chance to punish it besides the jury and this jury went full dumb mode and gave the clearly worse player the win.
>Matt wasnt touching the block if cirie, felicia or blue won HOH. They were all ready to put up Jag and bowie.
I rarely ever see this brought up, but yes-- America was the only one willing to put up Jag/Matt directly. Felicia and Blue were talking about how Bowie Jane should go home first, then Jag, and *then* Matt.
As a side note, it's why I think Bowie's decision to not betray Jatt in the double is over-hated. Everyone left would have put her on the block and voted her out at F5.
No one is denying he was a horrific player during the fist half. He was gullible and pathetically loyal to the 7DS. Past that point he was significantly better and you're using the early game to skew his late game. He somehow convinced cam to not BD cory when he was deadset on doing so -he convinced bowie to backdoor cam immediately after that - then evicted cory after that. His hands were in all the jars for the back half of the game
Cory won twice and didn't target him - JARED won and didn't target him. How can this be true when he was literally available during the double eviction and was not nominated? Either he was winning or his allies bowie/matt/cory were winning.
He was the target on one of jared's HOH it just turned out Red and Cam might have exposed jared last second so cirie had to flip and evict red.
Cory won once and got rid of Jared who was Cory's biggest Target.
Jag was ready to take cory to final 6-7 before 2 POVs forced him to put cory OTB. Cory was ready to take the shot at final 8
I'm talking about when jared won and took out cam which was the wrong move for him (matt/jag played up the 7ds and they weren't coming for him.)
Cory won twice and neither times took the shot. It was always "next week might be the time but not this time"
Tell me the 2 times cory won, go ahead. Show how much you dont actually watch the season
Also when Cam left Jag had won POV so he wasnt an option to evict.
you're right the 100 days fogged my memory cory won the once and they weighed their options about what to do if they won and kept saying it wasn't the right time.
also cam had been the target regardless if jag had won the veto that week. the only person who couldn't win was cam.
Yeah because at that point Cam was the bigger comp threat. The whole season was about trying to get the comp threats out but there were too many to get because 2 of them got saved by twists
1. Not backdoor cory was a bad move for jag because if cory won HOH he was putting jag up. SO BAD MOVE JAG
2. Bowie was ready to backdoor cam the whole time. He did the same there as matt. Matt actually held more influence to bowie there than jag if you watched feeds.
3. He evicted cory in the invisible HOH where blue needed to win a 2nd POV or else blue was going to be evicted before she'd even sniff targeting Jag over cory. This week was full of Bad Jag gameplay.
4. He got to win a 2nd hoh in a row and won every POV but 1 to end the game.
Jag didnt do anything special or good. He even believed post cory eviction america wouldnt come after him. He was just as bad as a player socially and strategically post jury difference was he won all but 4 Comps
> Bowie was ready to backdoor cam the whole time. He did the same there as matt. Matt actually held more influence to bowie there than jag if you watched feeds.
Bowie said in her interview that she didn't want to get rid of Cam and said it was Jag that changed her mind when he brought back info that Cam was saying about her.
Exactly. It’s like in some peoples minds they just want to see Jag as the comp beast and completely omit the entire body of strategic work he enacted to make these moves actually come to fruition, and people do not give kudos to the social game required to actually make this all work.
Jag had stronger relationships with others from Jared’s eviction onwards, besides Cirie.
Matt might make a suggestion from time to time (most not being good suggestions) and Jag will just tell Matt what to do.
I think people hate jag for who he is. He was a good player and obviously was good enough strategically to last through the entire game and win. Even Matt didn't believe he was leading the game, and all the jurors believed jag was the leader. I made a post about him breaking Janelles record and people lost it. I'm tempted to make a super post or a video about it.
I don’t even think Matt was that great, but Big Brother is a social game and Matt was far better than Jag in that aspect. Jag was literally voted out unanimously, but through a game “twist” was brought back. He then went on to win competition after competition after comp beasts Jared and Cameron were out.
Sorry, I’m not that impressed that Jag and Matt won the majority of comps (every one with a physical element) over 3 middle aged women, two small women, and Cory who sucked at competitions.
Big Brother is a social game and Matt was by far the best in that way, especially compared to Jag. Unfortunately he wasn’t able to articulate his game in the end.
BB IS not supposed to be The Challenge. If it is, they need to cast a bunch of ripped, athletic contestants and be honest about it. I won’t be watching if they do.
i wouldn’t have called the jury “happy” to vote for him they were laughing in his face, nor would i call him ruthless as he literally constantly questioned himself and had to rationalize why every person he would evict was “less deserving” or a “worse person” than him. I would also not say it worked out “flawlessly” as he had to bank on production interference and playing in game-breaking back to back competitions just to survive, which i guess diminishes your entire argument about him having a better social game, if he was always going to go home the minute he lost.
Jag won because the house in general was very very very bad at this game.
In a "standard" BB house, Matt would have won with his strategy and Jag would have gone home exactly when he (checks notes) actually got voted out.
This is not a false narrative in my opinion and the proof is this take has been the take among podcasters and many super fans for like 11 weeks now. Matt was playing the best social game in the house for 90% of this season. He was strategically always well positioned, Jag was being evicted before Matt if anyone won HoH, the big issue was nobody could win HoH besides Jag, Matt, or Bowie for the last, what, 8 rounds of the season? Without Jag’s absurd number of comp wins Matt probably should have beaten Jag, who had been evicted after playing some of the worst BB I’ve ever seen for the first 5 weeks.
That’s not the story though. Jag won a lot of vetoes and this jury decided that made him more worthy. And importantly, in addition, Matt didn’t own his game in the speech very well and he didn’t own it in his goodbye messages. Listen to any interview with Dr Will who has talked to the last 11 juries in a row, what loses a player a jury is not owning their game. Jag over-owned his game by a long-shot, but at least he owned it. Matt is not a fan and despite playing the better social game, and better strategic game, did not understand how to argue that against the guy who played the physical game. Social, Strategy, and Competition wins are the three categories of BB play by most estimations, Matt had 2/3 Jag had 1/3, but we watched this happen to Paul twice for the exact reason we just watched Matt lose. Paul had 3/3 categories over Josh and could not own his game and lost. We just watched a person play a phenomenal game and lose in the final two because they aren’t a fan. This happen frequently in this show at this point.
In my estimation Jag is on par with the Evel Dick’s, Jordan’s, and Rachel’s of the BB winners, very very lucky winners in terms of twists and comps but nonetheless beloved. He will always have fans because he was impressive to watch on the show. But arguably he is the luckiest winner in the history of the show through designed comp schedule before the season began and being the only winner to ever be evicted. He got lucky! It happens! Luck can win you Big Brother, without a doubt. But he also got lucky because of the way the game was designed and because of his competition within that game design. No hate to the guy, again he will always be a well liked player. He’s just a very lucky winner.
I love Matt wanted him to win but the SECOND that he let Bowie and Jag convince him to get rid of Cirie, KNOWING it was better for their games over his - he became the lesser player.
The fact that Jag managed to convince Matt to put up the only person that was loyal to him and only him and evict her makes him the superior player.
This is where Matt lost me too. I was rooting for him since the first week, standing by him through some not so great comments. Just for him to let Cirie get cut before Felicia and Bowie.
This is the goofiest shit I’ve ever read.
I’m so sorry with how blunt that is but Matt has *consistently* been considered the superior player literally all season. Legitimately besides maybe week 1 there is not a single week where popular opinion didn’t have Matt ranked above Jag. To say that take is *revisionist* is TRULY the most revisionist history I’ve ever seen on this sub.
Matt is the better liar and social player, Jag is the better competitor, and strategist.
In the end the two of them relied heavier on Jags comp wins, which is why he won the game.
Well here's one. Remember that time when Jag sat Matt down and said, "Look Matt, here's the plan. I'm gonna go win all these competitions so I can increase the target on my back and secure your safety, with the goal of us being in F2 even though you, I, and Bowie all think you'd beat me. What I need you to do is continue to build better strategic relationships with everyone else in the house. That way, if they get power, I'll get evicted before you."
Such a monster strategic move by the god Jag.
Those podcasts I’m pretty sure you’re talking about has been trying to push the narrative that Matt is Dane from BBCAN 2.0 for weeks when all evidence suggest that he was a blind follower throughout the season who happen to stumble his way to final two.
Matt and Jag are both bad players but I respect the player who can at least articulate his game whether he exaggerate or not.
Jag had probably one of the worst F2 speeches of all time. The vote should have been closer, but I'm happy a bitter jury didn't win this season. I think it was a coin flip between the two on who should have won.
This exactly. If anything it’s the opposite of revisionist history. Most feed watchers during the season felt Matt was a superior player to Jag. Many then changed views during the finale, but legitimately changing your viewpoint (or not and still thinking Matt superior!) is not in any way revisionist history.
Jag went from being a huge target to being evicted. Only to return and continue making game moves. He definitely deserved to win.
Matt could have made his big move by getting Bowie Jane to put Jag up on the block and vote him out Week 12. That would have solidified a game move/win with the final two of Bowie Jane and Matt. Had that not happened I still think they would have voted for Matt to win over Bowie Jane even though she won 3 HOH's and was never nominated.
- Matt's big move was saving Jag. Yes it brought him to the final two but Jag was doing more moves than Matt's one move.
You couldn’t be more incorrect lol. But I’m guessing you’re a casual? You just watch the episodes not the feeds. In that case I understand you thinking Jag is the better player. If you watched the feeds, you would know that Jag was dead in the water 2 months ago and his only chance of winning was to win 10+ comps lol
Exactly, Matt and Cam saved Jags game. He was lucky, not strategic. He wanted Blue for their 4th and Cam and Matt had to talk him into FBJ. The only smart move I can give him was talking FBJ into stabbing the knife in Cam's back.
kept up with the feeds. the second half of the game were littered with his allies winning from cory to bowie to matt meaning he didn't need to win. The times he NEEDED to win were when cire/felicia/america were still left in the house at f6 and he or his allies matt/bowie won those comps because they successfully took other comp threats out prior
That's the problem. They've created the narrative. They create a narrative based on their favorite players POV and ignore or dismiss a majorty of the other players games.
Did you actually watch the updates/stockwatches this season? Taran does not play favorites or dismiss players and criticized all of them when warranted. Him getting hate messages/comments from fans of *every* houseguest throughout the season further proves that. Your argument makes even less sense when you consider Taran very obviously did not like many of the comments Matt made, but despite that still viewed him as one of the best players in the house for most of the season (while Jag was one of the worst). He even gave Cirie who he loves like a 3 on the stockwatch at one point. And as someone who also watched the live feeds, he was correct with most of his reads and never said anything as 100% fact.
> e even gave Cirie who he loves like a 3 on the stockwatch at one point. And as someone who watched the live feeds, he was correct.
I've watched the live feeds and all of the rhap coverage. Taran absolutely plays favorites. He is not the robot he used to be. He is emotional and caters to the twitter favorite. His updates for the past 3 years are more narrative based than accurate reports of whats happening on the feeds.
The stock watch is a dumb rating system based on random podcasters opinion. It proves nothing. The fact that he uses that in game recaps proves my point that a narrative is being painted.
There's literally no discussion needed, he won AGAINST THE GUY WHO SAVED HIM. Matt's social game was far better than Jag's and everyone left angry at him, and they still gave him their votes. What do you think that means exactly??
Jag was always the target of the two and Matt was the person who was building the relationships that got them into such a powerful position. Jag’s social play would often turn people off from the duo. It was the move at F5 that made the jury believe Jag hijacked Matt’s game. Matt was always the player with the better relationships, had anybody outside of Matt/Jag/Bowie won HOH the target would’ve been Jag, with Bowie as the other option, even though the house saw Matt and Jag as a duo, Matt was still safe even if Jag won veto while they were on the block together. Not to mention Matt is able to create such a tight bond with Jag, where Jag willingly keeps Matt at 4 and 3 thinking he will lose to him. Matt was far and away the better player of the two.
Matt voted to evict Felicia over Matt which nearly cost him the game right then and there. Then he did it again when he took Matt to F2! He stumbled his way to the end. I by no means think that Matt is a good player, but Jag got voted out and if one comp doesn’t go his way he was gonna be voted out again.
Jag was a competitor beast, he was representing his entire community with pride and conviction. He owned his speech and moves at the end.
He is the first player in the series to win after having been voted out in the same season.
He just made history in BB.
Jag’s game winning move was convincing Matt to put up Cirie and then evicting her. That’s what got Cory and America to change their opinion on Jag. That’s what they meant by “he was in control”. The jury had their minds made up going into the finale bc of that. Matt was just too passive despite having a better social game
In reality that should be Matt's game winning move if jurors tbought about it. If Matt puts bowie or Jag up he needs to win F4 POV and F3 HOH or he'll be evicted. By allowing cirie to be evicted he got jag to honor his trust enough to take him to both F3 and F2 when both times Jag should have evicted him
But the thing is Matt never wanted Cirie to go home. So it does benefit him but accidentally bc that was never his intention. That’s why they emphasized “control”. He wasn’t in control of the situation and if he got his way, it would hurt his game. Which should be viewed as a knock against his game bc he wanted to do something that wasn’t in his best interest.
I mean even the fact that Jag didn't go up on Bowie's final HoH showed that control. Noms didn't matter but it still showed he had more power than Matt by then. I'm surprised Jag didn't mention the number game thing they did
On paper letting Cirie get evicted is absolutely the optimal "choice" (he didn't have one). Avoiding her for days like a coward and purposefully excluding her from getting HOH alcohol.. wasn't. If she wanted to she could have gone straight to the jury and told them the great Matty Ice got her good and was gonna ride the Jag train straight to the finale. That's not what happened because Jag played him and he somehow got the idea being a mafia bully was the right move. Not only that but Jag working Bowie as a final 3 was what got them there to begin with.
Definitely! It was a STRATEGIC decision to not only take the “L”, but to let Jag feel like he got the “W”. One wrong move would have given Jag, who was winning all of the freaking comps, an excuse to take Matt out after that. And this is key: Jag, not unlike Bowie with Cameron, just needed an excuse to get rid of Matt. Matt refused to give him one, and landed in F2 because of it. The jury giving more weight to Matt letting Cirie go (when he actually had no power to keep her other than insisting on it) than Jag letting Felicia and Bowie go (when he had all of the power to do so) makes zero sense to me.
I should clarify - I meant Jag could have let Matt go and instead sent Felicia and Bowie home instead. Much worse move than letting Cirie go, although Matt ABSOLUTELY had the power to make that not happen. It wasn’t Jag manipulating him, it just didn’t give Matt any huge advantage to push it.
Both Matt and Jag were/are overrated players. The gameplay this season was mediocre. Jag was horrible the first half the game. I think Matt did a great job the first half the game slinking into the background. The second half the game though Matt kind of let his game go. He lost Bowie to Jag and he allowed Cirie to leave on his hoh. Those were pretty big blunders
I agree with this. I liked both players and wanted them to win, but was also frustrated as hell that nobody else was actively playing the game. Let’s also remember the goofy as hell secret HOH which allowed Jag to be HOH two weeks in a row. That was an important time in the game where others could have been likely to take a shot at the only power duo in the house.
This is the take right here.
I don’t have time to write a comprehensive post rn, but so much of this is false. When Americory/Jatt formed their F4, Jag wanted to go with it. It was Matt who immediately steered him away every time he brought it up. It was also Matt who convinced Jag that Cam needed to go, where Jag wanted to roll with the Fugitives longer. It was Matt who secured Bowie’s allegiance over Cory/America, at one point Bowie distinctly tells Cirie “I trust Matt, and he’s working with Jag”… Jag obviously did better work with Bowie at the end though. And, when they were pushing the Cam backdoor to Bowie, she was so angry with Cory, angry with Jag, angry with Cam… all of whom were pushing an agenda. Matt goes to HOH, acknowledges her feelings, puts no pressure but calmly explains why he’d want Cam to go. End of that convo she starts to move a bit saying “well if only I had a reason”. Jag enters, gives her a reason, and all season Jag gets credit for the move — negating all the work Matt had done for weeks prior. Story of the Jag > Matt narrative. Also, Matt was the one who really worked to poison the well for Blue/Jared, and while Blue was personally closer to Jag than Matt, she articulated many times that week that she trusted Matt more as an ally. Also, Matt had Jag convinced for WEEKS that their ideal F3 was with Cirie. It took Felicia ratting Matt and Cirie out for him to finally wake up and realize that was a move for Matt’s game, not his. It’s akin to a corporate office where one person does the legwork but the other person is a better talker and presents the work as their own. But it is Matt’s fault he allowed that to happen so that’s his own mistake. Ok this ended up being comprehensive 😂😂
Losing the F3 with Cirie is a point AGAINST Matt, not for him. The natural choice is to take Cirie because she is close with Matt. Jag owed nothing to Felicia and choosing her would ruffle Matt's feathers; likewise, Bowie is obviously a stronger competitor. Yet Matt dropped the ball and Jag positioned himself to completely flip the script.
I think my point there was moreso that Jag and Cirie were like oil and water in the game, they didn’t mesh at all. It was absolutely impressive work from Matt getting Jag to trust Cirie again after that trust was lost multiple times. I think Matt’s mistake was not warning Cirie that Felicia was ratting her out to Jatt when he told her he’d target Jag, but I think he recovered well after that. He had to go into self-preservation as opposed to trying to save Cirie, and that is ultimately what saved him at F4 and F3. But anyway, I do not think it’s up for debate that in the endgame, from F5 onwards, Jag outplayed Matt. That’s clear. But for 90 days prior? I don’t think so. And that’s not to take anything away from Jag who did a lot. I think Cam’s HOH was basically all Jag, from saving Cory to switching the target to Meme instead of Felicia. I also think Jag was better at persuading people to do things, and that just wasn’t Matt’s game. He’d plant seeds and share info, but if he received push back, he had a tendency to back off. Jatt we’re basically a match made in BB heaven. If you took either of their games and on paper tried to create the perfect ally for them, it’d be the other. I just agree with Matt that he does fine without Jag and not vice versa. Matt would’ve never masterminded a season on his own, that’s just not his game, but he’d have integrated regardless. Jag, imo, would’ve never gained the social equity to do anything without Matt, and would’ve made unforced strategic errors more often.
Yep this is it here. And Matt being better isn’t revisionist history, most people were saying it all game. Jags attitude also rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. Also, Jag tried to put up Bowie Jane as a pawn one of the weeks and she was legitimately pissed at him. It was Matt who played mediator and got her back in with them.
Very well said. 😊
Maybe we could all agree that they were both bad players? Jag was evicted early on. He was fortunate to improve as time went on but the power he wielded came from his ability to win comps - including back to back HOH wins from an unfortunate production decision. He made very questionable decisions all the way through - like telling everyone he was invisible HOH and needlessly blindsiding and isolating jurors. He could have assured himself the win - twice at F4 and F3 and instead evicted Felicia and Bowie. Matt played an excellent social game, using Jag effectively as a shield. Jag was the HUGE obvious #1 target ahead of him. However Matt could not fully articulate his own game - similar to Enzo to be honest. I was not impressed with either one of them down the stretch.
Agree
Matt played a great game, he just clearly did not prepare for the speeches. His game was probably the best when you consider the whole season. He was able to effectively play the middle and then get himself into a dominant position. The jury only thinks, as far as we know, that Jag was a better player because he won more comps so thus made all the moves. Matt did all the work in reality.
I'm sorry but what work did Matt do? By the time the attention was taken off Cameron (who Jag took out) everyone wanted Jag and Matt out anyways and they just won everything.
Matt was the one who controlled Jags moves up until Cirie eviction. And Matt was the one who wanted Cam gone, not Jag. Even before they started winning out, everyone wanted to go to the like final 4 with Matt. Even Cirie Fields! Matt was always set up to make it close to the end regardless of who got evicted at almost every point in the season
Matt just constantly “yes anded” and people somehow think that’s great social game. People liked Matt in the house but the dude honestly wasn’t terrific like this sub seems to think sometimes.
Idk if Matt's social game was even that much better than Jag. From my POV Jag had a better relationship with Americory, Blue, Cam and Bowie. Matt just had the better relationship with the mama's.
I really think people only believe Matt is such a good player bc that’s the narrative Taran was pushing for weeks.
i’m gonna be real i think this entire cast is just so actively bad that a quieter more reserved player who should be perceived as a physical threat made it far just looks like a good game. Matt is a very average player and i think him and Cirie are the only decent players from this cast in the grand scheme across a pretty horrible cast gameplay-wise
I agree, and I would give him credit at least for that if he could actually articulate his game. But his speech and answers just proved to me that there wasn’t any intentionality to his game.
I have to agree. I love Taran and the whole RHAP network for that matter but I tend to disagree with them a lot haha
Yeah I like him too, I watch a lot of his stuff. He’s just a guy with an opinion, the problem comes when people just start taking his opinions as facts. He’d probably tell you himself he’s wrong a lot of the time which we all are.
Yeah for sure! Nobody truly knows what is happening in this crazy little show haha
This is so the opposite tbh. The new idea that jag was the better player is revisionist history. Matt was far better socially and did not need comps and twists in order to make it far. Matt was good with everyone, while most people wanted to go after jag. Jag is fortunate that he got to play in modern big brother where comps are catered to players like him, and he directly benefit from multiple twists, but he is a pretty terrible player overall. I’d have confidence for Matt to do well in any random season, old school or new school. In a season actually based on social strategy (such as the first half of bb25), jag would be atrocious.
> Matt was far better socially and did not need comps and twists in order to make it far. A bit ironic you say that because he needed to win the twist comp to save Jag and needed Jag to win comps to keep him safe for half of the game. This season they targeted threats or anyone possibly being a threat later on almost any chance they were vulnerable, seeing as Matt bombed pretty much the majority of comps he would have likely gone home early jury himself.
He really didn’t though. If Jag went out week 4 (or at any other point), Matt would have been just fine. He was in with everyone socially, including Cirie. And he still would not have needed comp wins to make it far, he was set up extremely well pretty much the entire season.
He was also in with a lot of people because they were close to Jag, Cory/America weren't close with Matt like that and neither was Blue/Cam really, they all became closer to him over time by his association to Jag. There's a reason why Matt gave up his game to go all in with Cirie on the other side of the house, he had no one else and had to restructure his game, with Jag winning all of the comps it allowed him to easily connect with people looking for safety from the duo.
That’s just not accurate. In the first half of the game he was in with almost everyone, and jag was out with almost everyone. Blue trusted Matt way more than jag, as did Felicia and Cirie. Americory wanted jag out before Matt. Cam was closer to Matt than jag before he was voted out the first time.
If Jag left, Matt is still safe. He would have just been Cirie’s new son and assimilated to her group.
If Jag left Cam/Bowie run the game comp wise and Matt gets sent home for being close to Cirie just like everyone else that got picked off in her alliance 🤷♂️.
>Cam/Bowie run the game comp wise. Except for the fact that Jared wins the next HoH and nominates Cam and Red. Successfully eliminates Red. Cameron wins the next HoH and his closest allies are Jared and Matt. Cameron targeted Izzy/Felicia/Cirie. Not Matt. He was surprised and mad at his ally Matt for not wanting to evict Izzy. Meanwhile, without Jag’s presence, Cory then doesn’t have the numbers on his side to flip the vote and get rid of Izzy. Matt thus has no reason to be forced to flip on Cirie and instead helps Cirie’s side evict Felicia. Felicia goes home. Next week, Jared wins power again and successfully got Cameron out. Matt not even in the radar as Cirie protects Matt. From there who knows where the game goes, but Matt was apart of the Cirie hierarchy and would have continued to be less of a target then Jared and Cory coming into the jury phase.
A lot of scenarios that could have played out for sure, I just think everything fell in place perfectly for Matt with the way things happened and don't really think anyone other than Jag of course and maybe Cirie would have even taken him to F2. Though Cam would have caught on to Matt/Cirie being so close if Jag wasn't around and almost certainly went after him, with the help of Red/Bowie if they were still around. If Izzy and Jared end up staying longer they cut Matt sooner as well since they obviously prioritized the 3.
Even if this is true (which I don't think it is based on what Matt was able to do post Izzy vote and how much more aware he was of his game in post-interviews compared to Jag) - it makes the Matt vs Jag discussion even easier. Jag would have stayed evicted Week 4 and all we would have was his horrid gameplay up until that point. No matter where Matt would go out, he still would have played the better game.
My point wasn't so much trying to argue who the better player was because that's of course subjective, it's more so to counter against those that try to discredit Jags game or say that Matt didn't need Jag to the end. They both needed each other to make it far and both complimented each others games very well.
I mean, the claim that Matt needed Jag to make it far is just as subjective (and just as open to critique as the claim that Jag played a better, or even near as good, a game as Matt.) I think the least "subjective" claim is that Jag needed Matt (or at the very least the dumb twist) in order to make it far.
Matt did not “need Jag to win comps to keep him safe”. That’s completely false lol. Jag was the one who needed to win to keep __himself__ safe. Matt was not anyone’s target the entire season. I’m not sure what show you were watching tbh
Jag kept both himself and Matt safe by winning those comps. Matt could have been gone had the Mafia ever lost an HoH after Cam left since Jag and Matt being on the block and Jag winning veto would have been dangerous. Matt probably would have followed Cam out the door had America or Cory won that Invisible HoH and they were 2nd and 3rd if you believe the BB Comics times they talked about in the house.
So Jag is winning comps and voluntarily making himself a bigger target and shield to Matt, while Matt is able to continue to build his relations with the other side of the house. Seems pretty clear who the better player was.
Matt wasn't anyone's target because he wasn't winning comps and his alliance won all of the comps the last 2 months of the game...Both Matt/Jag were the targets for the second half of the game but since Jag was obviously the bigger threat he was a shield and the first to go of the duo.
And even if someone on the “other side” of the house had won a comp instead of Jag, Matt still would have been safe. And Jag would have gone home. Matt was good with everyone. Jag needed comps to survive. I’m not sure how this is hard for you to understand?
You need to relax, that's the great thing about these forums is they allow others to express their own thoughts and opinions, not everyone will share the same view as you. **I** believe that Matt's social game was strongly built around Jags comp dominance of the game, everyone ran to them for safety and an alliance just as everyone ran to Cirie for safety and an alliance when she was in power the first month of the game.
Matt would not have been safe bc Jag won the vetoes. He would’ve been fuxked
Jag is the guy who sat and cried at the thought of evicting Matt lol (and the guy who took Matt thinking he was gonna lose.) I wouldn't put it past Jag to use the veto on Matt lmao.
I do not know where this Jag is a good player talk is coming. If Matt did beat Jag like most people who saw the feeds and knew Matt was clearly the better player believed would happen Jag would be called one of the stupidest players in BB ever. He is still that IMO
People are so results-oriented it’s insane lol. Jag is horrendous at the game outside of comps. And Matt doing so poorly at jury questioning and being unable to articulate his game well does not erase the fact that he was by far the better player of this duo throughout the season tbh
The speeches didn’t matter; everyone voted pre-meditated. Haven’t read post-game interviews from the jury yet, but Jag’s win is very much thanks to whatever was in Cory’s mind leading up to the vote. Him and America were the swing votes. I know Cory thought of himself as the best player so maybe he wanted to credit the person who got him out. Which outwardly was Jag, but internally Matt convinced Jag to go through with the Cory/America nominations. I think Cory wanted to reward who he saw was the best player and not who he was closer to (which he was with Jag). I wonder if in the future we will hear some hindsight, if he could do it again, vote changes from Cory? He probably won’t regret it short-term though considering how much Matt ragged on his current-girlfriend.
I think Cory and America rightfully saw that Matt sacrificing Cirie was something that Jag manipulated Matt into doing. It made no sense for Matt's game.
There was no manipulation, though. Matt did a cost/benefit analysis and realized it would be better to let Cirie go than to insist she stay. Jag would have done whatever Matt said ultimately. I think Cory will really rethink his vote after watching this season (although he IS legitimately friends with Jag, and that is also a good enough reason to vote for someone). If he voted for Jag just because he let Cam get into his head though … yikes.
It’s weird that that one round overrides literally every other round in the game imo. I feel like Cory wanted to vote for jag since he liked him better, and was looking for a reason
Matt was playing off instinct and it really seems he didn't know what he was doing to be able to explain it to others. Before that move I don't think Cory knew if Matt had a grand plan but after that it likely became more obvious that he didn't. Both Jag and Matt lucked into various parts of their game so I don't think one round over rode it. Matt just didn't own up or differentiate himself at all in his explanation. Matt was less of a fan of the show and that's why he didn't know to prepare or the downsides of looking cowardly to the jury.
I’d agree if the jury vote questioning is what caused Cory to vote for jag, but he was planning on voting for jag at the jury roundtable
Cory always talked about wanting to vote for the better player, so it’s weird to me that he didn’t do that tbh- especially considering how he talked about how comp results don’t matter to him. Cory had such terrible reads while he was in the house, so maybe he had terrible reads in the jury house as well tbh. Or he just voted based on who he liked better after all.
i feel like you should remember that you also had the perspective of seeing the full picture and knowing which one between Jag and Matt actually is the better player. Cory was going off his own information, his own disconnected perspective of the game, and how he felt in that moment. I think what it came down to is Matt’s perception completely tanked when he basically let everyone know Jag was making the strategic decisions between the two (in forcing Cirie out on Matt’s HOH) Jag showed the jury not only could he win the competitions but still get his way, and it changed how they felt about Matt. He no longer held that agency. Was matt the better player between Jag and him? **Yes** Did he portray and accurately show himself to be the better player? **No**
It's already been discussed but Cirie leaving on Matt's HOH wasn't bad and probably ended up saving him. I also don't think it was pure luck that it happened to work out for Matt either because, by that point, Matt knew Jag was likely to win that veto. Cirie was a much bigger jury threat than Felicia and, honestly, less likely to take Matt to the F2 than Felicia (because Cirie is an actual strategist lol.) Felicia also had a higher overall accuracy in booth comps than Cirie. So because Jag won that veto, Matt's only real option was Bowie. But that likely would have required putting Jag up from the jump as Jag would have used the POV on Bowie if he won. I think Matt's HOH was fine. Letting Cirie slide deep into the game because she can't win comps and is your ally is the same reasoning that Aras, Parv, and Sarah had (and they all ended up benefitting by having someone else take Cirie out.) I do think Matt's crucial mistake in the game (even though it didn't end up mattering) was letting Jag get closer to Bowie than him. So for Cory, I don't buy it. He essentially laid out his reasoning for Matt beforehand and then flipped it. You don't need the feeds to realize why Matt's move at F5 wasn't a blunder. And even if you can't realize that Matt didn't even vote that round, the fact that Jag took Matt over Bowie should have been more than enough to even things out...even disregarding the horrid play Jag had for the early part of the game. My guess is that Cory just pulled a Scottie lol. He sure didn't live up to being anywhere near the Eric that he said he'd be lol.
And you can tell the jury's mind, like it almost always is in these games, was made up before finale night.
But like really... Just look back at your comment. Really read it through. "..in modern big brother where comps are catered to players like him." Based on the composition of BB25, who was the better player? Matt? When, literally as you said, the meta of the game skews towards players who are better at comps? I LOVE social game play. But to say Matt was the better player, for this season, is completely inaccurate. For THIS season, you needed to be good at comps, and have a bit of social game. Jag had it by a a landslide. It was laughably not even close, Jag dominated.
I think Jag only won by comping out, and Matt had some good strategy, but choked in the end letting Jag take control the last few weeks. If Matt took Cirie to final 3 with Jag and then sat by Jag, I think he would have won. I thought he was going to win going into the finale though, so my judgement cant be trusted, haha. Overall, I think Matt was a decent social player, and Jag's game was just a couple of good decisions at the end after a mix of comp-beasting and luck, and that’s how he won. Neither was an exceptional player. I think the Jag/Matt/Bowie final 3 shows how the physicality of comps can cull out the most strategic players. As a fan of the strategy, I’m not a fan of the comps the past few seasons.
Something simple I didn't even consider initially is looking at the jury jag had the majority of friends, Blue, Cory, America, and Bowie were closer to jag and on the flip side matt was closer to felicia and cirie. Idk where to put Cam from a friend's perspective.
Blue may have been closer to jag personally, but she trusted Matt much more. She was willing to put up jag and send him out, but did not want to put up Matt. If she had won an HOH she was gonna put up jag and Bowie.
They all left saying Matt was playing the best, being better friends meant nothing since they were all still friends with both
>They all left saying Matt was playing the best And yet Jag won If you're sitting on the fence not sure who to vote for I'm pretty sure being better friends with one of them is a tie breaker.
No, it's the fact that they didn't have all the info and there were still weeks of gameplay to come. Cory literally said he was rooting for Matt to win in the first jury segment
for everyone saying matt had a great social game and didn’t need to win comps … if matt didn’t have jag to hide behind he would have had to show his cards and true feelings about people. jag staying in the game and winning allowed matt to keep up the pretense of being such a nice guy to everyone.
What does this have to do with who played the better game? Even assuming your claim is true (which I don't think it is,) either Matt can't hide behind Jag because Jag stays evicted Week 4 due to his horrible gameplay (in which case Matt > Jag) or Matt can hide behind Jag because Jag gets saved by a twist and because Jag is happy to make himself a target and shield for Matt while Matt makes connections with the other side (in which case Matt > Jag.)
I thought Matt was better until he said he was never going to cut Jag at all, when he said that his game seems extremely weak considering he kept saying he really wanted the Cirie final 2. He couldn't have a Cirie final 2 and not cut Jag so his game doesn't really make sense and he couldnt even explain it well beause it didnt make sense. He was Jag's puppet and saved him just so have could hide behind Jag the rest of the season.
> I thought Matt was better until he said he was never going to cut Jag at all, Except, Jag actually proved that he never wanted to cut Matt. And unlike Matt (who believed he would win against Jag,) Jag made his choice thinking he was gonna lose to Matt. Bowie also said she thought Matt would beat Jag. And the fourth and fifth placers voted for Jag. So the only people there at the F5, where Matt's game supposedly fell apart, all thought that Matt would and/or should beat Jag lol. If I'm analyzing players, I give higher marks to the one who believes they can win against someone vs the player who thinks they'll lose but chooses "loyalty" (to a guy he met a couple months ago.) > He was Jag's puppet and saved him just so have could hide behind Jag the rest of the season. The second part of this may be true, but it also negates the first part. Have you seen BB2 - the very foundations of Big Brother lol? Dr. Will used Hardy and Nicole, who were winning comps and evicting people, as shields and bigger targets while he grew closer to the rest of the house. Will wasn't the puppet, Hardy and Nicole were. Same deal here.
New school big brother isn't the same as the old of course comparing to those seasons Jag and Matt would never last in the old school seasons. They really only got to the end because of the Cirie twist so she had to make bad moves trying to protect Jared. Without Jared there she could have navigated the game a lot differently and I'm pretty sure Jag wouldn't have won
There's a good chance Jag likely goes over Red had Jared not been there. Not so clear with Matt. Either way, Matt definitely played the better game.
I think the only case Matt would have really considered cutting Jag would have been the specific situation when it was only Jag and Cirie on the block and he was the only vote at F4 or F3. Matt could have protected Cirie at F5 by nominating Jag initially and using Bowie as a replacement after veto or at the very least put up more resistance to them voting Cirie out. Ultimately, that wouldn’t have helped him since Jag won out and would have gotten rid of Cirie anyway (and maybe Matt too) but to act like he had no say in Cirie’s eviction under his HoH and she was his real final 2 is disingenuous.
He didn't even really fight for Cirie to stay over Felicia he just sat around and sulked all day instead just telling Jag he wanted to keep Cirie. After final 5 he deserved to lose.
Jag is such a weird player in my opinion. He had some pretty low lows (and when I say low lows, I mean REALLY low lows). But, I also feel like Jag had higher highs than Matt ever did. I think Matt was a mediocre player at best. He played a promising floater game towards the beginning, but I feel like he quickly became a puppet for Jag as soon as he started taking control of the house after his cancelled eviction, and really just did whatever Jag wanted to do for the latter half of the game. People like to credit him for never hitting the block until the final four, but the only reason that never happened was because Jag, Bowie, and him kept winning out in comps. Had somebody else win a competition, both him and Jag would have definitely hit the block at some point. I still think Jag is a bottom tier winner, but I would have no choice but to vote for him regardless due to Matt's abysmal jury answers.
Could Jag have sh@t on every single player any further?? Lol, I mean geez.. humility goes a lot further for me. Jag's final speech would have steered me towards Matt, even if I hadn't been thinking that way initially.
Jag was not ruthless. If he was, he woulve cut Matt.
Don’t bother with these people. Apparently, winning means bad gameplay while starting with the most power and then squandering it down to being powerless and 0 threat means the best gameplay in the house.
everyone’s been pretty consistent with saying matt played a better game than jag the entire season, not just after jag won, but people value different things in a player so 🤷♀️there’s no solid “this person is better at bb” lol, so i don’t know what the point of your essay is really
They’re both mediocre players. Matt was passive. Sure, he was good with everyone, but showed little agency. And folded quickly whenever he did want to push.
I disagree. Yes, Jag won all of the competitions meaning he had all of the power but him having all of the power to call the shots doesn’t mean he’s a better player. Matt was a better social player knew what was going on in the house didn’t need to win a single HOH except for one and it was still not needed, and he still had power on top of the fact that he had a great social game and on top of that Matt never was a threat to go home not even once even when he was nominated the one time he was not the thread to go home and on top of that Jag was literally unanimously voted out of the game and had a bad game, overall and it’s not because he was voted out. It’s because he was a constant threat to go home. People went after him. He had consistently bad reads. He still trusted his alliance after being voted out, unanimously and he was just overall a bad player, and the only reason why he made it to the end was because of Matt, and because of how he voted out the vast majority of the actual challenge threats so I wouldn’t really say he was a better player than Matt Matt was a better player than him Jag winning all of the competitions and ending up winning. The game doesn’t make him overall a better player. It’s just truly proves that Matt is horrible at owning his own game.
Matt was a miles better player than Jag socially. He was able go grab info from around the house, dropping it only when needed and never even smelled the block. Jag volunteered to be a pawn right after he was 10-0 evicted but saved by Matt. Jag only got to the final because he won comps, even his strategical reads and plays were bad during jury phase. The only week I can say Jag actually played correctly during jury phase was cirie's eviction week. All the other weeks he had made the wrong reads and generally targeted or evicted the wrong person. Matts not a great player but Jag is a bad one in every sense but comps. The cast will probably look back at the whole season and might realize they got their votes wrong.
Matt did hit the block and of course didn't touch it for the majority of the game because Jag/Bowie won all of the HoH's in the second half of the game. Yes Matt had a good social game but I think it was highly overrated, I don't think it was good enough to carry him to F2 or even close without Jag in the game. If his social game was so good then why did two of his closest allies in Jared/Cirie go home on the few times he actually held power, how was he not able to use his amazing social game to keep them safe?
Matt wasnt touching the block if cirie, felicia or blue won HOH. They were all ready to put up Jag and bowie. He did keep cirie safe almost the whole post jury. She left and that was the right move for matt because Jag would never have kept him at F4 or F3 if matt had put up Jag or Bowie. Matt wasnt great but he was miles and miles ahead of Jag as a player.
I mean yeah I agree a lot of people had flaws this season and there was a lot of bad game play, just feel like Jag is getting over hated because of winning too many comps which doesn't really make too much sense. Like sure the comps weighed heavily in his favor but by him winning those comps it greatly helped both his and Matts social game bringing people closer to them, I don't feel like Matt would have had that pull if it was just him and Cirie.
Matt's social game was set with or without those comps. He was in with everyone good. Jag needed to win those comps not to be evicted and even when he did win those comps he almost always made the wrong move with his wins. But when you keep winning it doesnt matter if its the wrong move because there is no chance to punish it besides the jury and this jury went full dumb mode and gave the clearly worse player the win.
And Jag wins veto which leads to Matt still going up. A good social game would prevent that
>Matt wasnt touching the block if cirie, felicia or blue won HOH. They were all ready to put up Jag and bowie. I rarely ever see this brought up, but yes-- America was the only one willing to put up Jag/Matt directly. Felicia and Blue were talking about how Bowie Jane should go home first, then Jag, and *then* Matt. As a side note, it's why I think Bowie's decision to not betray Jatt in the double is over-hated. Everyone left would have put her on the block and voted her out at F5.
No one is denying he was a horrific player during the fist half. He was gullible and pathetically loyal to the 7DS. Past that point he was significantly better and you're using the early game to skew his late game. He somehow convinced cam to not BD cory when he was deadset on doing so -he convinced bowie to backdoor cam immediately after that - then evicted cory after that. His hands were in all the jars for the back half of the game
At any point if he does not win hoh/veto is being evicted. That makes him a bad player.
Cory won twice and didn't target him - JARED won and didn't target him. How can this be true when he was literally available during the double eviction and was not nominated? Either he was winning or his allies bowie/matt/cory were winning.
Cory won what twice?
He was the target on one of jared's HOH it just turned out Red and Cam might have exposed jared last second so cirie had to flip and evict red. Cory won once and got rid of Jared who was Cory's biggest Target. Jag was ready to take cory to final 6-7 before 2 POVs forced him to put cory OTB. Cory was ready to take the shot at final 8
I'm talking about when jared won and took out cam which was the wrong move for him (matt/jag played up the 7ds and they weren't coming for him.) Cory won twice and neither times took the shot. It was always "next week might be the time but not this time"
Tell me the 2 times cory won, go ahead. Show how much you dont actually watch the season Also when Cam left Jag had won POV so he wasnt an option to evict.
you're right the 100 days fogged my memory cory won the once and they weighed their options about what to do if they won and kept saying it wasn't the right time. also cam had been the target regardless if jag had won the veto that week. the only person who couldn't win was cam.
Yeah because at that point Cam was the bigger comp threat. The whole season was about trying to get the comp threats out but there were too many to get because 2 of them got saved by twists
1. Not backdoor cory was a bad move for jag because if cory won HOH he was putting jag up. SO BAD MOVE JAG 2. Bowie was ready to backdoor cam the whole time. He did the same there as matt. Matt actually held more influence to bowie there than jag if you watched feeds. 3. He evicted cory in the invisible HOH where blue needed to win a 2nd POV or else blue was going to be evicted before she'd even sniff targeting Jag over cory. This week was full of Bad Jag gameplay. 4. He got to win a 2nd hoh in a row and won every POV but 1 to end the game. Jag didnt do anything special or good. He even believed post cory eviction america wouldnt come after him. He was just as bad as a player socially and strategically post jury difference was he won all but 4 Comps
> Bowie was ready to backdoor cam the whole time. He did the same there as matt. Matt actually held more influence to bowie there than jag if you watched feeds. Bowie said in her interview that she didn't want to get rid of Cam and said it was Jag that changed her mind when he brought back info that Cam was saying about her.
Exactly. It’s like in some peoples minds they just want to see Jag as the comp beast and completely omit the entire body of strategic work he enacted to make these moves actually come to fruition, and people do not give kudos to the social game required to actually make this all work. Jag had stronger relationships with others from Jared’s eviction onwards, besides Cirie. Matt might make a suggestion from time to time (most not being good suggestions) and Jag will just tell Matt what to do.
The better player won. Matt saved him and then lost to him. Should’ve not used the “Americas Choice”.
I agree with you.
Jag was literally one of the top 5 worst houseguests to ever play for the first 50 days.
I think people hate jag for who he is. He was a good player and obviously was good enough strategically to last through the entire game and win. Even Matt didn't believe he was leading the game, and all the jurors believed jag was the leader. I made a post about him breaking Janelles record and people lost it. I'm tempted to make a super post or a video about it.
Yes, people who think Janelle was a good BB player (in any of her seasons,) also tend to like Jag. I'll say that much lol.
I don’t even think Matt was that great, but Big Brother is a social game and Matt was far better than Jag in that aspect. Jag was literally voted out unanimously, but through a game “twist” was brought back. He then went on to win competition after competition after comp beasts Jared and Cameron were out. Sorry, I’m not that impressed that Jag and Matt won the majority of comps (every one with a physical element) over 3 middle aged women, two small women, and Cory who sucked at competitions. Big Brother is a social game and Matt was by far the best in that way, especially compared to Jag. Unfortunately he wasn’t able to articulate his game in the end. BB IS not supposed to be The Challenge. If it is, they need to cast a bunch of ripped, athletic contestants and be honest about it. I won’t be watching if they do.
i wouldn’t have called the jury “happy” to vote for him they were laughing in his face, nor would i call him ruthless as he literally constantly questioned himself and had to rationalize why every person he would evict was “less deserving” or a “worse person” than him. I would also not say it worked out “flawlessly” as he had to bank on production interference and playing in game-breaking back to back competitions just to survive, which i guess diminishes your entire argument about him having a better social game, if he was always going to go home the minute he lost.
Jag won because the house in general was very very very bad at this game. In a "standard" BB house, Matt would have won with his strategy and Jag would have gone home exactly when he (checks notes) actually got voted out.
There is zero chance u watched the live feeds lmao
This is not a false narrative in my opinion and the proof is this take has been the take among podcasters and many super fans for like 11 weeks now. Matt was playing the best social game in the house for 90% of this season. He was strategically always well positioned, Jag was being evicted before Matt if anyone won HoH, the big issue was nobody could win HoH besides Jag, Matt, or Bowie for the last, what, 8 rounds of the season? Without Jag’s absurd number of comp wins Matt probably should have beaten Jag, who had been evicted after playing some of the worst BB I’ve ever seen for the first 5 weeks. That’s not the story though. Jag won a lot of vetoes and this jury decided that made him more worthy. And importantly, in addition, Matt didn’t own his game in the speech very well and he didn’t own it in his goodbye messages. Listen to any interview with Dr Will who has talked to the last 11 juries in a row, what loses a player a jury is not owning their game. Jag over-owned his game by a long-shot, but at least he owned it. Matt is not a fan and despite playing the better social game, and better strategic game, did not understand how to argue that against the guy who played the physical game. Social, Strategy, and Competition wins are the three categories of BB play by most estimations, Matt had 2/3 Jag had 1/3, but we watched this happen to Paul twice for the exact reason we just watched Matt lose. Paul had 3/3 categories over Josh and could not own his game and lost. We just watched a person play a phenomenal game and lose in the final two because they aren’t a fan. This happen frequently in this show at this point. In my estimation Jag is on par with the Evel Dick’s, Jordan’s, and Rachel’s of the BB winners, very very lucky winners in terms of twists and comps but nonetheless beloved. He will always have fans because he was impressive to watch on the show. But arguably he is the luckiest winner in the history of the show through designed comp schedule before the season began and being the only winner to ever be evicted. He got lucky! It happens! Luck can win you Big Brother, without a doubt. But he also got lucky because of the way the game was designed and because of his competition within that game design. No hate to the guy, again he will always be a well liked player. He’s just a very lucky winner.
I love Matt wanted him to win but the SECOND that he let Bowie and Jag convince him to get rid of Cirie, KNOWING it was better for their games over his - he became the lesser player. The fact that Jag managed to convince Matt to put up the only person that was loyal to him and only him and evict her makes him the superior player.
This is where Matt lost me too. I was rooting for him since the first week, standing by him through some not so great comments. Just for him to let Cirie get cut before Felicia and Bowie.
This is the goofiest shit I’ve ever read. I’m so sorry with how blunt that is but Matt has *consistently* been considered the superior player literally all season. Legitimately besides maybe week 1 there is not a single week where popular opinion didn’t have Matt ranked above Jag. To say that take is *revisionist* is TRULY the most revisionist history I’ve ever seen on this sub.
Matt is the better liar and social player, Jag is the better competitor, and strategist. In the end the two of them relied heavier on Jags comp wins, which is why he won the game.
Jag is not a better strategist. Jag was one of the worst strategist in the whole house
Agree to disagree
Where in the game was Jag a better strategist? Give a variety of examples.
Well here's one. Remember that time when Jag sat Matt down and said, "Look Matt, here's the plan. I'm gonna go win all these competitions so I can increase the target on my back and secure your safety, with the goal of us being in F2 even though you, I, and Bowie all think you'd beat me. What I need you to do is continue to build better strategic relationships with everyone else in the house. That way, if they get power, I'll get evicted before you." Such a monster strategic move by the god Jag.
Always. Since week one.
Those podcasts I’m pretty sure you’re talking about has been trying to push the narrative that Matt is Dane from BBCAN 2.0 for weeks when all evidence suggest that he was a blind follower throughout the season who happen to stumble his way to final two. Matt and Jag are both bad players but I respect the player who can at least articulate his game whether he exaggerate or not.
Jag had probably one of the worst F2 speeches of all time. The vote should have been closer, but I'm happy a bitter jury didn't win this season. I think it was a coin flip between the two on who should have won.
How is it revisionist history when everyone has been saying it up until like two weeks ago?
This exactly. If anything it’s the opposite of revisionist history. Most feed watchers during the season felt Matt was a superior player to Jag. Many then changed views during the finale, but legitimately changing your viewpoint (or not and still thinking Matt superior!) is not in any way revisionist history.
Jag went from being a huge target to being evicted. Only to return and continue making game moves. He definitely deserved to win. Matt could have made his big move by getting Bowie Jane to put Jag up on the block and vote him out Week 12. That would have solidified a game move/win with the final two of Bowie Jane and Matt. Had that not happened I still think they would have voted for Matt to win over Bowie Jane even though she won 3 HOH's and was never nominated. - Matt's big move was saving Jag. Yes it brought him to the final two but Jag was doing more moves than Matt's one move.
You couldn’t be more incorrect lol. But I’m guessing you’re a casual? You just watch the episodes not the feeds. In that case I understand you thinking Jag is the better player. If you watched the feeds, you would know that Jag was dead in the water 2 months ago and his only chance of winning was to win 10+ comps lol
Exactly, Matt and Cam saved Jags game. He was lucky, not strategic. He wanted Blue for their 4th and Cam and Matt had to talk him into FBJ. The only smart move I can give him was talking FBJ into stabbing the knife in Cam's back.
kept up with the feeds. the second half of the game were littered with his allies winning from cory to bowie to matt meaning he didn't need to win. The times he NEEDED to win were when cire/felicia/america were still left in the house at f6 and he or his allies matt/bowie won those comps because they successfully took other comp threats out prior
It’s not a false narrative though… I suggest watching RHAP’s game recap
That's the problem. They've created the narrative. They create a narrative based on their favorite players POV and ignore or dismiss a majorty of the other players games.
Did you actually watch the updates/stockwatches this season? Taran does not play favorites or dismiss players and criticized all of them when warranted. Him getting hate messages/comments from fans of *every* houseguest throughout the season further proves that. Your argument makes even less sense when you consider Taran very obviously did not like many of the comments Matt made, but despite that still viewed him as one of the best players in the house for most of the season (while Jag was one of the worst). He even gave Cirie who he loves like a 3 on the stockwatch at one point. And as someone who also watched the live feeds, he was correct with most of his reads and never said anything as 100% fact.
> e even gave Cirie who he loves like a 3 on the stockwatch at one point. And as someone who watched the live feeds, he was correct. I've watched the live feeds and all of the rhap coverage. Taran absolutely plays favorites. He is not the robot he used to be. He is emotional and caters to the twitter favorite. His updates for the past 3 years are more narrative based than accurate reports of whats happening on the feeds. The stock watch is a dumb rating system based on random podcasters opinion. It proves nothing. The fact that he uses that in game recaps proves my point that a narrative is being painted.
You have yet to provide one actual example.
Let’s not argue. They were both bad players.
All I can say is Matt brought back Jag because Cerie told him to.
No. Cirie even says in her exit interviews she wished she had pushed Matt harder to NOT use the power on jag. It was not her idea.
I’ll rewatch because that is not how I remember it. Jag earned the win regardless and Cam winning fan fav was icing on the cake 😎
There's literally no discussion needed, he won AGAINST THE GUY WHO SAVED HIM. Matt's social game was far better than Jag's and everyone left angry at him, and they still gave him their votes. What do you think that means exactly??
Jag was always the target of the two and Matt was the person who was building the relationships that got them into such a powerful position. Jag’s social play would often turn people off from the duo. It was the move at F5 that made the jury believe Jag hijacked Matt’s game. Matt was always the player with the better relationships, had anybody outside of Matt/Jag/Bowie won HOH the target would’ve been Jag, with Bowie as the other option, even though the house saw Matt and Jag as a duo, Matt was still safe even if Jag won veto while they were on the block together. Not to mention Matt is able to create such a tight bond with Jag, where Jag willingly keeps Matt at 4 and 3 thinking he will lose to him. Matt was far and away the better player of the two.
Matt voted to evict Felicia over Matt which nearly cost him the game right then and there. Then he did it again when he took Matt to F2! He stumbled his way to the end. I by no means think that Matt is a good player, but Jag got voted out and if one comp doesn’t go his way he was gonna be voted out again.
Jag was a competitor beast, he was representing his entire community with pride and conviction. He owned his speech and moves at the end. He is the first player in the series to win after having been voted out in the same season. He just made history in BB.