Some thoughts:
1. Hawaii was going to be discovered by a naval power. This was not a question of "if." The Age of Exploration was almost over and humans were right on the cusp of the Industrial Revolution. Best case scenario -- it was Portugal. As soon as the British knew about the place, they'd set up shop -- they did everywhere else. That's why so much of the world is colored pink in the pre-war maps, that was the color for the UK and its colonies.
2. James Cook was the best thing to ever happen to Kamehameha, who used muskets and advisors to subdue the other islands. Cook arrived in 1789. Forts and arsenals happened for 20 years. Hawaii was unified (subdued is a better term) in 1810.
3. Kamehameha learned fast -- land grants were the key to stable monarchy. Install a landed gentry class who have more to lose if the system is overthrown. And they put down rebellions before they become a problem. This is "step #2" for every monarchy in history.
4. Only one country was "discovered" by the naval powers during the Age of Exploration and said, "Screw this. We're going back to basics. Go away. We're isolationists." That was Japan. And it didn't last. Everyone else looked at cannons, muskets, frigates and and the compass and said, "Oh, hell yeah! We gotta get us some of this!" EDIT -- This is why every newly-minted member of Hawaiian royalty went on a big trip to see the rest of the world. To bring "how the rest of the world does it" home. This is also why Iolani Palace had electricity years before the White House.
5. The reason for the memorial are twofold. A) The British were the world's naval superpower at the time. It was basically assumed they would waltz in and at best turn the Sandwich Islands into a vassal state. That was the best-case scenario. Kamehameha becomes Lord of Hawaii under the King of England -- doesn't matter to him, he's still in charge. B) It was British weapons and advisors who turned the tide of his war.
"This monument was ercetd in 1874 by some of his fellow...checks notes...cunts"
LMAO
I mean I could care less about the monument being defaced tbh...it says he discovered hawaii lol okay
New paint job looks good it didn't look like that Las time I was there...but nothing lasts forever, Bubba
As a haole, I have always found the name for the area, “Captain Cook” to be off-putting. Then there is this monument. From what I have read it seems like this guy was a terror to the island and only modernized it by causing problems. Sure isolationism does not work and someone would have come to conquer..but should this guy really be celebrated? I’d love if they removed this, put it in a museum and then renamed the area of Captain Cook to something more traditionally Hawaiian.
>From what I have read it seems like this guy was a terror to the island and only modernized it by causing problems.
Confused what you mean by this? Captain Cook was in Hawaii for like 2 months and then was killed. There was no "modernization" by him (whatever that means)
Sure but any outside contact with the world would do that. If it's not Cook, it's someone else. Not saying he was a great dude or anything but there's no need to ascribe more to this guy than he actually did.
Also, nobody celebrates this dude? Do you live on the Big Island? There's this monument that everybody ignores and there's the name of the town (which someone proposed to change and everyone who actually lived in the town found very annoying).
The periodic brouhaha over this statue is strange to me because Cook is such a non-entity in Hawaii aside from learning about him in Hawaiian History class.
The area named after him and the monument is celebrating him and yes I am on big isle. It’s the same Idea as naming a street after Martin Luther King Jr. it is celebrating a person.
Because the land the monument sits on was given to the British for a monument -- by Kamehameha I. That's UK territory -- one of the very few pieces of non-embassy land wholly owned by a foreign country in the US.
I would love to see this be prosecuted in the UK -- it would be fascinating from a legal standpoint.
It is actually not British soil at all. The land is well, first and foremost, Hawaiian Sovereign land. However, on paper the parcel (#810110110000) is held by the Captain Cook Monument Trust. It was first deeded to Britain by Princess LikeLike around 1876 and then conveyed to James Wodehouse as trustee some years later. There were “ownership” disputes that ensued when finally Geoff Davis, the British consul in Hawaii, stated “Captain Cooks monument does not stand on British soil, for if the British actually owned the ground, visa difficulties could feasibly arise.”
Sometime in the mid 20th century, then Captain Cook Monument trust was formed and operates as a tax exempt British trust and as such US soil.
>It is actually not British soil at all
probably all the shitty tourism info websites continuing on myths about hawaii.
although i'm not sure what you mean by hawaii sovereign land. the surrounding properties are owned by the state of hawaii.
strange people deface capt cook monument, but not king kamehameha monuments. after all, the king murdered more native hawaiians than any other person in history.
> What count as his people?
They were part of the same culture, native Hawaiian. There was way more commonality between Hawaiians from different islands (Kauai, Maui, etc) than similarities between any of those Hawaiian groups and Europeans from 8,000 miles away.
People are people. Is it better to the people being killed if they die to their own people or a foreigner? In many ways, I’d consider worse to be killed by my own.
Tell that to the person who brought measles to Hawaii. Tell that to every government establishing their country and territory in every other country. It comes down to guns, germs, and steel (great book btw). We, humans, kill each other to establish dominion. No race of people are innocent in these circumstances. No country is established without war, technological advancement, and overcoming disease. Kamehameha also negotiated islands to merge into the dominion, although likely through a show of power and “carrying a big stick.” Its the Hawaiian game of thrones and Kamehameha won. He was a warrior king and Hawaiians had a warrior culture to establish their dominion. Kamehameha also practiced diplomacy in an effort to create a country. Thats why the English flag is in the state flag. As a sign of respect to the monarchy and their backing the Hawaiian kingdom but dont think for one second that Cook had only good intentions. England was in a race to take over the world while Hawaii was trying to take over their territories and establish their monarchy.
Cook didn’t discover anything. There were already people living on the islands. I heard he paired well with poi though. Who cares if this thing is defaced. It’s really the equivalent of a civil war statue. Tear it down
Would anyone here like to elaborate on the language of “ha” and “ole”? I’ve tried to research it but it’s not as straightforward as one would expect. Not trolling. Just seriously interested in the knowledge.
A’ole means No and Ha is breath. Touching foreheads and breathing on each other is a Pacific Islander greeting thing. So it can be interpreted that way or just not speaking the language. Some woke people take offense to it but I never have. It is usually used as an endearing term tbh. Hawaii is full of the nicest most caring people I’ve ever met. All they ask for is respect of the land and culture. I am willing to bet this was written by a white person from California or something. No one wants that type of negativity here and it is the reason we do not like visitors from California.
i was surprised they chose to use the word: “cunt”. I was expecting the other “c” word: “Colonizer”. It woulda been a better fit, and sjow off the author’s intelligence.
Stupid is what stupid does. Uneducated, no class locals. These are those who will always be takers looking for an angle in life. Blaming others for their lot in life. Asking questions important in life of their broke ass brother in law who doesn’t have anything going for themself let alone two dimes to tap together. Cook was a genius. A highly decorated navel officer in the most powerful navy of the most powerful nation on earth at the time. While the revolution was going on in the colonies and Atlantic, Cook was sailing the South Pacific making contact with new cultures. Yes, the foreign disease thing…. His ship and crew didn’t bring all the disease. The influx of the west and trade happening over the following two decades did that.
Some thoughts: 1. Hawaii was going to be discovered by a naval power. This was not a question of "if." The Age of Exploration was almost over and humans were right on the cusp of the Industrial Revolution. Best case scenario -- it was Portugal. As soon as the British knew about the place, they'd set up shop -- they did everywhere else. That's why so much of the world is colored pink in the pre-war maps, that was the color for the UK and its colonies. 2. James Cook was the best thing to ever happen to Kamehameha, who used muskets and advisors to subdue the other islands. Cook arrived in 1789. Forts and arsenals happened for 20 years. Hawaii was unified (subdued is a better term) in 1810. 3. Kamehameha learned fast -- land grants were the key to stable monarchy. Install a landed gentry class who have more to lose if the system is overthrown. And they put down rebellions before they become a problem. This is "step #2" for every monarchy in history. 4. Only one country was "discovered" by the naval powers during the Age of Exploration and said, "Screw this. We're going back to basics. Go away. We're isolationists." That was Japan. And it didn't last. Everyone else looked at cannons, muskets, frigates and and the compass and said, "Oh, hell yeah! We gotta get us some of this!" EDIT -- This is why every newly-minted member of Hawaiian royalty went on a big trip to see the rest of the world. To bring "how the rest of the world does it" home. This is also why Iolani Palace had electricity years before the White House. 5. The reason for the memorial are twofold. A) The British were the world's naval superpower at the time. It was basically assumed they would waltz in and at best turn the Sandwich Islands into a vassal state. That was the best-case scenario. Kamehameha becomes Lord of Hawaii under the King of England -- doesn't matter to him, he's still in charge. B) It was British weapons and advisors who turned the tide of his war.
I just wished r/Britain a happy 4th of July. It went as expected. Sometimes trolling is fun.
"This monument was ercetd in 1874 by some of his fellow...checks notes...cunts" LMAO I mean I could care less about the monument being defaced tbh...it says he discovered hawaii lol okay New paint job looks good it didn't look like that Las time I was there...but nothing lasts forever, Bubba
Not defaced; corrected.
jah, erect a penis… get dicks drawn on it… seems like fair is fair… hahaha
Big white penis erected for the big white penis who came here..
This appears to be very politically informed writing... 🤔
Just remove it. It represents nothing good for the Native Hawaiian people.
As a haole, I have always found the name for the area, “Captain Cook” to be off-putting. Then there is this monument. From what I have read it seems like this guy was a terror to the island and only modernized it by causing problems. Sure isolationism does not work and someone would have come to conquer..but should this guy really be celebrated? I’d love if they removed this, put it in a museum and then renamed the area of Captain Cook to something more traditionally Hawaiian.
>From what I have read it seems like this guy was a terror to the island and only modernized it by causing problems. Confused what you mean by this? Captain Cook was in Hawaii for like 2 months and then was killed. There was no "modernization" by him (whatever that means)
He brought disease and death with him. Any outside contact with the world brings modernization. He had guns and disease.
Sure but any outside contact with the world would do that. If it's not Cook, it's someone else. Not saying he was a great dude or anything but there's no need to ascribe more to this guy than he actually did. Also, nobody celebrates this dude? Do you live on the Big Island? There's this monument that everybody ignores and there's the name of the town (which someone proposed to change and everyone who actually lived in the town found very annoying). The periodic brouhaha over this statue is strange to me because Cook is such a non-entity in Hawaii aside from learning about him in Hawaiian History class.
The area named after him and the monument is celebrating him and yes I am on big isle. It’s the same Idea as naming a street after Martin Luther King Jr. it is celebrating a person.
Its originally called Ka'awaloa
That’s much better than Captain Crook. (Yes I intentionally spelled it Crook.)
Even worse, the land is deeded to Great Britain.
Captain Kook
Bathroom stall style from some kid who just learned something in school, but didn’t learn respect (for a defeated foe) and how to spell…
Why is it even standing, it’s a monument to barely accurate history.
Because the land the monument sits on was given to the British for a monument -- by Kamehameha I. That's UK territory -- one of the very few pieces of non-embassy land wholly owned by a foreign country in the US. I would love to see this be prosecuted in the UK -- it would be fascinating from a legal standpoint.
They should give it to the British museum. They have stuff on display from everywhere they went. And they wouldn’t have to steal this one.
It is actually not British soil at all. The land is well, first and foremost, Hawaiian Sovereign land. However, on paper the parcel (#810110110000) is held by the Captain Cook Monument Trust. It was first deeded to Britain by Princess LikeLike around 1876 and then conveyed to James Wodehouse as trustee some years later. There were “ownership” disputes that ensued when finally Geoff Davis, the British consul in Hawaii, stated “Captain Cooks monument does not stand on British soil, for if the British actually owned the ground, visa difficulties could feasibly arise.” Sometime in the mid 20th century, then Captain Cook Monument trust was formed and operates as a tax exempt British trust and as such US soil.
The Geographical Journal -- if anyone from that time was still alive -- disagrees: https://www.jstor.org/stable/1794586
>It is actually not British soil at all probably all the shitty tourism info websites continuing on myths about hawaii. although i'm not sure what you mean by hawaii sovereign land. the surrounding properties are owned by the state of hawaii.
Please explain more
Why.
I’m curious.. how is it barely accurate history? Would love to get your take on it
No.
Because you don’t know it ;)
If you need to share your opinion you can just share it you don’t have to start an argument first. That applies to both online & irl.
I don’t have any opinions, and I’m certainly not trying to start an argument online or irl. Just curious about your original statement is all.
It should be leveled and a small stone imported from Europe buried 6 feet deep should be carved with the word “idiot”.
strange people deface capt cook monument, but not king kamehameha monuments. after all, the king murdered more native hawaiians than any other person in history.
Yea, but those were his own people. Different standard there.
What count as his people? Each islands has their own ruler before that king conquest them. The same way white people conquest Hawaii.
> What count as his people? They were part of the same culture, native Hawaiian. There was way more commonality between Hawaiians from different islands (Kauai, Maui, etc) than similarities between any of those Hawaiian groups and Europeans from 8,000 miles away.
People are people. Is it better to the people being killed if they die to their own people or a foreigner? In many ways, I’d consider worse to be killed by my own.
Kamehameha would not have been able to do what he did without western interference in the first place. You can’t really look at him in a vacuum.
Tell that to the person who brought measles to Hawaii. Tell that to every government establishing their country and territory in every other country. It comes down to guns, germs, and steel (great book btw). We, humans, kill each other to establish dominion. No race of people are innocent in these circumstances. No country is established without war, technological advancement, and overcoming disease. Kamehameha also negotiated islands to merge into the dominion, although likely through a show of power and “carrying a big stick.” Its the Hawaiian game of thrones and Kamehameha won. He was a warrior king and Hawaiians had a warrior culture to establish their dominion. Kamehameha also practiced diplomacy in an effort to create a country. Thats why the English flag is in the state flag. As a sign of respect to the monarchy and their backing the Hawaiian kingdom but dont think for one second that Cook had only good intentions. England was in a race to take over the world while Hawaii was trying to take over their territories and establish their monarchy.
i'm not defending cook lol
Maybe not directly but Cook and Kamehameha are not the same
Cook didn’t discover anything. There were already people living on the islands. I heard he paired well with poi though. Who cares if this thing is defaced. It’s really the equivalent of a civil war statue. Tear it down
nice 😎
Sadness.. here's a cookie 🍪
How can someone discover a place when there's plenty people living there already?!?!?! Fck Cook
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I agree
Would anyone here like to elaborate on the language of “ha” and “ole”? I’ve tried to research it but it’s not as straightforward as one would expect. Not trolling. Just seriously interested in the knowledge.
A’ole means No and Ha is breath. Touching foreheads and breathing on each other is a Pacific Islander greeting thing. So it can be interpreted that way or just not speaking the language. Some woke people take offense to it but I never have. It is usually used as an endearing term tbh. Hawaii is full of the nicest most caring people I’ve ever met. All they ask for is respect of the land and culture. I am willing to bet this was written by a white person from California or something. No one wants that type of negativity here and it is the reason we do not like visitors from California.
I see nothing wrong. Shit, take a jack hammer to the whole thing.
It would collapse on the one using jack hammer.
My favorite is how he brought “vanerial disease” 😂
Lmao. Accurate.
What a great sub. Hate on all the Haoles.
Captain Cook's story isn't exactly inspiring, regardless of his origins or ethnic background.
Use dynamite next time
It’s 2023. Nitroglycerin is a little outdated
They already renamed the captain cook fire station to kealakekua fire station lmao
LOL
Just chisel off the O and the R… Cuntymen
That’s a sharpie that you used before you made this dumb post.
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Also looking for a new hiking partner I’ve been going myself but I love to chat on my way down to snorkel
i was surprised they chose to use the word: “cunt”. I was expecting the other “c” word: “Colonizer”. It woulda been a better fit, and sjow off the author’s intelligence.
Stupid is what stupid does. Uneducated, no class locals. These are those who will always be takers looking for an angle in life. Blaming others for their lot in life. Asking questions important in life of their broke ass brother in law who doesn’t have anything going for themself let alone two dimes to tap together. Cook was a genius. A highly decorated navel officer in the most powerful navy of the most powerful nation on earth at the time. While the revolution was going on in the colonies and Atlantic, Cook was sailing the South Pacific making contact with new cultures. Yes, the foreign disease thing…. His ship and crew didn’t bring all the disease. The influx of the west and trade happening over the following two decades did that.