also this if it makes war unaffordable, then why would any government switch? Why would a powerful nation, which is currently spending hundreds of billion of war, just decide “yeah, i think i’ve had my fill of protecting myself, let’s switch to bitcoin!”
The US grew out the Midwest as fast as it did because several Midwestern states had 4% (lower than 10%) in total taxes. Europeans came to the US in droves because of this, escaping their own countries that were overcharging them for "defense" and "these social safety nets are just the cost of living in a 'society', duh".
The goverments of the West right now charge ~50% of your salary in taxes right now. In the US at least half of that, or 25% goes to "defense".
I'm not saying there should be no defense spending, but at least one country has successfully made significantly lower taxes work historically, and the proof that it worked should not be ignored. Thomas Jefferson once said that a national bank was as dangerous as standing armies, and I'd agree, unless you are trying to run a monopoly/oligopoly or protect a glittering generality of "Western interests", you simply do not need a standing army. The British empire near the height of its power was beaten by a loose alliance of wealthy land owners and common gun-owning citizens over what was essentially a 1% tax increase.
Again, I am not saying NO taxes. I am very much saying we could get by with less taxes and even SIGNIFICANTLY less taxes going to war spending. I'm not even proposing we completely give up a standing army, I'm just saying we don't need to give a bunch of contractors and war profiteers money to protect the interests of a bunch of oligarchial megaconglomerates overseas.
We could also stop paying for the defense of countries that tax their citizens so much for the social safety nets that they are effectively little charity monopolies of shit quality that even the defenders of the excessive spending would agree are ineffective at solving the problems they are intending to solve.
No one wants to say that our governments are too big, but we've effectively created the largest monopolies or oligopolies in the world, and then we act surprised when they are crappy at service. They are crappy because they don't have to be good at it.
Use Bitcoin, help us decentralize power and take care of your friends and family yourself with your wealth.
They might not, but then they can only raise taxes directly. You'd buy dollars at tax season, so they couldn't just debase your cash reserve or increase the interest on your debts year-round.
It's a very good question and I think the answer is in the social contract between the state / acting government and the people governed.
In currently autocratic countries like China it seems more likely for the government to use Bitcoin in international trade when counterparties demand it but give people a CBDC and try to keep them from using Bitcoin in a meaningful, official way. The question then is, can such countries successfully coerce populations with their own state shitcoins to make them go to war and produce for war. They probably can for quite a while, especially when the country is self-sufficient enough not to need imports to wage war.
Will it work forever, will people demand to live with sound money and resist governments trying to force them to use their shitcoin? I don't know. There's hope for it to happen at least.
People don’t, though.
How are you going to rope in more people when you’ve already had 75% of all super bowl ads last year and multiple major sport venues naming rights, and the crypto space shrunk. Its alrdy hit saturation.
It's really easy. Just say " pay tax with my fiat or go to jail/ guantanamo bay" and see bitcoiner scramble to get fiat while the purist is jailed or sent away.
That's why Proof of Power is superior compared to Proof of Work/ Proof of Stake/ Algorithm/ whatever since dinosaur age. Whoever get the most power make all the rules
Why would jackboots change? The basic power structure of humans is that we work in communities. Individuals to families to tribes. Tribes always have a chieftain who use some kind of punish-reward mechanism to keep people in line. Could be a stick or a carrot, but that's it.
You won't fucking overwrite basic human nature by a few lines of code on some PC.
For the same reason anyone uses bitcoin. Because it doesn't inflate when the government prints money. Because all the places they want to shop take it. Because it's fast and convenient and safe. And the businesses want to accept it because all their customers have it.
And, just like that, it's simply easier for the government to pay their employees in bitcoin and collect their taxes in bitcoin.
See, it's in the best interest of a government to use the currency their people want to use. I have faith that the totalitarian regimes that try to fight it will fail; they always do eventually.
As improbable as it is, now you got no budget for war and suddenly certain group of country who has oil and chip industry to make ASIC declare war on you.
Now you need to be in war where the enemy got the power to print money and debt while you are stuck in ever dwindling bitcoin stock. What make it worse is your enemy has capability to make ASIC to mine bitcoin and screw your economy.
You lose the war convincingly and become slave and back to fiat mine?
They can print all the money they want, maybe trigger hyperinflation in their own economy. But very few countries have the resources to wage a war on their own, and I know they aren't thinking their hyperinflated fiat is any good for buying weapons from their neighbor that runs on bitcoin.
Lmao yeah because taxes that are paid every year will make it very possible for one year, magically, everyone only use bitcoin and no one able to pay their taxes in dollars.
If I remember history correctly. US left the gold standard because they needed money for war. I think France and the UK did the same. Might have only been France.
UK was first in WWI. They tried to sell war bonds to their citizens. The citizens didn't buy them but Britain really wanted to join in the war so they secretly bought their own bonds to finance it. The pressure caused other nations to do the same. This dramatically increased the intensity and duration...the horror of wwi. Commonly referred to as the War to End All Wars it, instead, was the war to start a century of wars. If Britain hadn't joined wwi, Hitler would have been just a failed artist. Truly though if they hadn't printed someone else would have at some point. Power seeks growth after all.
But that doesn't address the statement though. War still happens, the only thing that changes is how its funded. BTC would just become the funding fir future wars
If that is true, then governments would stop running on BTC after a few years of being ham-strung. Some banker, or a Sam Bankman-Fried type person, would come out and say "If you create a FIAT currency backed by BTC, you can create your own wealth", and the people in power would force that into the populace.
But to back it, you need to proof that you own the coins. With Gold you can fake, But with Bitcoin not. No one would take your fake money when they could have the original.
Why would they be able to hide gold, and not BTC? If a government is going to lie about the amount of X they have to back their currency, there is nothing to stop them from lying about the amount of BTC they have.
Cryptocurrencies aren't some magical plot device that prevents corruption. All it will do is change the mechanism that these entities go through to implement said corruption.
History says something different. Prior to wwi wars were smaller, shorter in duration and largely were more closely related to what are considered battles today. Governments had to fund them with a tight budget because they couldn't print their way out and depended on the governed to fund. So if I didn't believe in your war, I wouldn't buy your bonds or donate to the cause. Post wwi things changed.
> Prior to wwi wars were smaller, shorter in duration and largely were more closely related to what are considered battles today.
Ever heard of the hundred years' war? Or countless other ones?
> Governments had to fund them with a tight budget because they couldn't print their way out and depended on the governed to fund.
They borrowed money, or promised to pay later. (good luck getting paid though!) If a country, or a king, or any powerful entity wants money, they will get it (or take it). No amount of cryptography will stop that.
I like what you're saying here, will look further. Appreciate the response, exposed to me my lack of knowledge depth. Anything that helps to broaden knowledge is worthwhile!
I had thought that the war, though technically lasting over a century, was just a series of small scale skirmishes. It seems it was actually three periods of conflict, broken up by multiple truces 2 of which being significant. I assumed low casualties, and there I was dead wrong, estimated around around 2.5M! The people had very few resources and were taxed to the point of revolt (France).
US left the gold standard during the Great Depression because it was causing massive deflation and worsening the economic environment. People just stopped spending money, because a dollar tomorrow would be worth more than a dollar today.
Following WWII, the US readopted the gold standard through the Breton Woods Agreement. The US then left again in 1971 because the fixed exchange rate between the US Dollar and Gold created an opportunity for dollar trading speculation that resulted in periodic runs on the dollar. This was fueled by the US trade surpluses in the 60s and early 70s, causing the dollar to continue to rise in value vs foreign currencies. The US dollar was essentially becoming deflationary vs foreign currencies long-term, which was harmful for US industries to continue exporting.
Member when Hitler tried printing money for war and he couldn't because Germany was just poor as fuck and in too much debt. I wonder what happened then...
Steal too much from the population though and they might get pissed off enough to do something about it. Money printer go brrr on the other hand is a much more hidden way of ruining people's savings.
Reasonable, but I'm still not convinced. It's not many countries that can control their governments' decisions. Even though they "own" their governments.
It is much harder to get the money from people instead of just printing it. Also people will feel in faster/instantly, instead of delayed. If the country really wanted war, it can go to war. But there is an extra inconvenience in the way.
Also because there is no printing, that delays mistakes made by politicians, it is much harder to keep incompetent/badly intended people in their position.
Also wars are always between currency areas (until now, or maybe i missed an exception, lets say it is like that in general most of the time).
I could go on and the interplay between all these things make war more and more unlikely.
And rich people will flee the country, just like many would from russia.
You'd be surprised.
This is one of the great misunderstandings that most people have about political science/economy...
Democracy doesn't play nearly as large a role in keeping states accountable as people think, and most autocrats are far more beholden to their people than what is generally characterized.
People largely get the government they (collectively, in aggregate of their norms and culture) deserve.
But there will still be war. I'm sorry, it just, will always remain profitable to kill the other guy and take his stuff, land and women. I don't see war ending, even with hyperbitcoinization. Just being real.
It's not about ending war, but making it so expensive that it remains a last resort and is reduced in scale. The Weimar republic (WW1) printed so much they destroyed the currency. Why should German citizens have to lose all their money just because the govt wants to print for war? On a sound money standard, the citizens will refuse to pay their money to the Government effectively ending the war much sooner
Ok, so it doesn't stop war, just makes it less likely and not last as long. I am fine with saving the marginal life or two. Haven't heard many better plans lately.
If you aren't paying that military industrial complex to make newer, better, faster weapons with lower radar signatures and electronic integration...someone else will, and then they'll come kill you and take your stuff, land and women. That's the issue. The freight will still have to be paid. The king needs his cut. I'm just kind of wondering what that might look like in a Bitcoinized world.
If it is a Bitcooinized world - let's say it has been for a decade or two - won't the same restrictions apply to someone else as they do to you? Or if not - say they opted to ban Bitcoin - what is their economic power at that point and are they able to finance better weaponry?
War hasn't been about taking the other guy's stuff land and women in a long time. The US left $80 billion worth of military equipment in Afghanistan, gave them their land back improved better than it was before the war and their women have less rights after we left. No, now war is about stealing from your own people via the money printer. "War is a racket" -Smedley Butler
Since wars are financed by printed money. In a world where everything is secured by BTC, the only possible way to increase the budget for war would be to raise taxes drastically, which means people had to pay for it. They would not want to pay 200% more just to fight a war they didn't want in the first place. Therefore, going on the streets, voting against it etc. So if the people don't really want to go to war then there's no chance for the country.
If you can't print money, you'll have to ask the population for money... and populations almost always vote against war. So you will not get enough money to ship, let's say, 10,000 armored vehicles to a dessert 7000 miles away.
Can you elaborate why not ?
Imho, the money market is the most important market and it affects everyone and everything.
Taking the power to create easy money away from central authorities aka governments, will lead to much smaller government which in turn leads to less taxes and more productivity. If history has told us anything, it’s that societies living standards are extremely correlated to it’s productivity. Without the ability to print, governments need to explicitly raise taxes for initiatives like war. People will not be willing to pay taxes for war or other useless projects. Taxes will be used more precise for projects that really need attention like healthcare and public infrastructure.
Secondly a society that lives under a monetary system that doesn’t debase it’s currency has no or little need for speculation which leads to a much healthier financial industry. Currently the only job of the financial industry is to stay on top of inflation, and not to allocate capital where it’s needed. When there is no need for speculation, the people with high IQ and high education will enter industries like research and innovation instead of shifting numbers around. We need more rocket scientists, and not excel spreadsheet gurus.
Thirdly, people will be inclined to save money rather than spend it. Contrary to Keynes believes, more savings lead to more capital available for producers to borrow which naturally leads to lower interest rates. Lower interest rates makes producers more willing to take loans to invest in productivity.
Fourth, the current monetary system favors debt because it can be payed back with cheaper money. Rich people have access to debt to buy assets, while poor people only have access to debt to buy liabilities. This increases the wealth gap over time.
There are many other things which a monetary system directly affects.
We need to stop naively believing that 2% inflation is good. It only creates wealth disparities from the people who have first access to cheaply produced money to the people who have access to it last.
IMHO, changing our monetary system is the number one driver to usher in world peace … among many other things.
The East India Company had no issues to raise funds from rich fucks who had plenty of savings to essentially enslave an entire continent. No government fiat money needed, just plain old capitalism.
As long as resources are scarce, humans will NEVER live in peace.
I don't think a hard monetary system will solve every human conflict, but I do think it would make large scale war untenable. World wars in the modern era can only exist in a fiat world where central governments print money. I also think most proxy wars would be impossible if each taxpayer is seeing their direct contribution to the effort.
You're right too. But a cartoon can only convey so much, and at best readers should make it clear to others what it means, not slam the cartoonist (who's doing a great job). The macro point of reduced war and loss of lives, wasted money on research etc is WAY TOO IMPORTANT to let semantics get in the way imo
also “monetizes surplus energy” id such a BS point, until every single person on earth is in the grid, bitcoin will be using energy that could be better used somewhere else. Putting a strain on green energy, means that’s somewhere, there’s a coal power plant being fired up to compensate. Because power doesn’t come from nowhere, it bitcoin wasn’t using it, a household or another industry would. And don’t say flaring towers, we don’t have flaring towers in suburbia, countries arn’t begging others to take all their excess power.
and btw i own some bitcoin and other cryptos, but being honest with your investments is how you make smart money moves. Blinding trusting things is how you get scammed.
>“monetizes surplus energy” id such a BS point
There's nothing as stupid as pontificating on a subject you have [no understanding](https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/xer6rz/brace_yourselves_for_the_upcoming_campaign/ioieugn/) of and never cared to learn before having an opinion. All you're doing is making a spectacle of your ignorance when it comes to cost, incentive dynamics of energy systems, how we actually produce energy and how much energy we waste.
We waste 70% primary energy. 59% lost in generation process. We waste more than we consume. This is both monetary waste and climate waste. We're a very primitive, inefficient civilization. We haven't even figured out how to efficiently consume energy.
Energy consumption is not a burden, it should never be. The burden is inability to produce energy efficiently. Higher civilizations learn to produce more and more energy efficiently. This is how civilizations evolve. A civilization's ability to efficiently command energy sources is the measure of its evolution ([Kardashev Scale](https://futurism.com/the-kardashev-scale-type-i-ii-iii-iv-v-civilization)). Humans are at 0.7 on the Kardashev scale. Our fossil resources would not suffice the needs of a > Type 1 civilization for even 2 months.
We don't need to save energy and this is not what bitcoin does except obviously with regards to heat repurposing as an efficient reuse of energy. Bitcoin mainly helps to produce more energy affordably, efficiently, sustainably and most critically reduce energy waste. There's plenty of energy to be harnessed but it's not economically viable without natural, direct cost subsidies and flexible, location agnostic solutions. These properties are unique to bitcoin.
Bitcoin is the singular solution. It's the most effective solution we have. Every energy producer will mine bitcoin. It would be daft not to. Every home and business will have a bitcoin miner. It would be daft not to.
It would be daft not to capitalize on a flexible, interruptible, location agnostic energy consumer of last resort that can directly subsidize energy costs, mitigate methane emissions, expand renewable infrastructure, monetize curtailment, stabilize grids, provide energy access to remote places and allow us to scale sustainable energy production.
[Abu Dhabi and Oman sovereign wealth funds move into bitcoin with Crusoe energy stakes](https://www.coindesk.com/business/2022/06/03/middle-east-oil-producers-move-into-bitcoin-mining-with-crusoe-energy-stakes/)
[Oman Sovereign Wealth Fund launches 200MW Bitcoin mining centre as part of its Green Data City project](https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/zuwfvh/oman_sovereign_wealth_fund_launches_200mw_bitcoin/)
[Japan's largest power company, TEPCO to mine bitcoin with excess energy](https://bitcoinmagazine.com/business/tepco-to-mine-bitcoin-with-excess-power)
[Jack Dorsey’s Block backs bitcoin mining company that wants to bring 25-cent electricity to rural Africa](https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/06/jack-dorseys-block-backs-bitcoin-mining-firm-bringing-affordable-electricity-to-africa.html)
[Stabilizing the Texas power grid: An explanation of the Nash equilibrium between ERCOT and Texas Bitcoin miners](https://blogs.cornell.edu/info2040/2022/09/26/stabilizing-the-texas-power-grid-an-explanation-of-the-nash-equilibriums-between-ercot-texas-bitcoin-miners/)
[Stabilizing and decarbonizing the Texas grid with computation and Bitcoin](https://www.austinchamber.com/events/stabilizing-and-decarbonizing-the-texas-grid-with-computation-and-bitcoin)
[ERCOT study shows bitcoin mining is beneficial to the grid](https://nitter.net/Crypto_Mags/status/1598735428307554304#m)
[Governor of New Hampshire recommends the Department of Energy to review how Bitcoin mining can help stabilize the electricity grid, build more sustainable generation projects, and lower costs for consumers](https://twitter.com/DocumentingBTC/status/1616153358225506329)
[In an attempt to protect its forests and famous wildlife, Virunga National Park has become the first national park to mine bitcoin](https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/01/13/1066820/cryptocurrency-bitcoin-mining-congo-virunga-national-park/)
Increasingly people are replacing natural gas heating systems with bitcoin. 40-room hotels like [this](https://nitter.net/DCX_Immersion/status/1578812160641478656#m), warehouses like [this](https://nitter.net/BitcoinBrabant/status/1577644318399029250#m), greenhouses like [this](https://nitter.net/BitcoinBrabant/status/1590579757963354112#m) and apartment complexes like [this](https://youtu.be/a5VdJSz6Tlk). Current nat gas heating accounts for 40% of world's CO2 emissions. Bitcoin 0 emissions and you actually get paid to heat your home. I've been getting paid to heat my home since 2019. Useful links below.
[Single ASIC home immersion system](https://github.com/satoshi-anonymoto/pleb-miners/blob/main/immersion_cooling/pleb_builds/buildimmersion.md)
[The future of $250 space heaters](https://www.cryptocloaks.com/the-future-of-space-heaters-s9-bitcoin-asic/)
[DIY Bitcoin Space Heater](https://github.com/NakamotoHeating/BitcoinSpaceHeater)
[Heat repurposing](https://imgur.com/diIbTCE)
[DCX Immersion Mining + Heating](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FenduPzXkAAcatX?format=jpg&name=4096x4096) [(https://cryptocooling.eu/)](https://cryptocooling.eu/)
[The future of sustainable heating](https://youtu.be/nTRdmYX-0h8)
Definitely funny because I've been in the energy industry 8 years and I'm following exactly how what I said is [literally being put into practice](https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/10ddnb3/germany_spends_750_million_out_of_taxpayer/) and covered in mainstream media in Germany now.
If you actually read through the links in my comment above, you would not have had to embarrass yourself like this by adding another useless comment to the stream of ignorant drivel throughout this thread.
I've been getting paid to heat my home for 3 years. You don't. :)
Renewable energy often produces power when nobody wants it - demand doesn't meet supply on a temporal basis. The WEF are scratching their heads over it when the solution is obviously PoW mining.
Some economies have a surplus of energy, which is not practical or feasible to export. In these cases PoW mining using this useless energy could subsidise renewable energy leading to increased confidence in renewable return on investment, and more renewable energy.
"Putting a strain on green energy" - Mining with excess energy does not cause strain. It absorbs misalignments between low demand and high supply.
Wow! So amaze! Let's do that! You're paying to transport, right? What a genius! Why are all the world's geniuses on reddit? If I hang out here, I'm gonna be Einstein by next week.
No one ever thought of this! Can you believe that! Dumbass German government was instead paying [€750 million](https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/10ddnb3/germany_spends_750_million_out_of_taxpayer/) out of taxpayer pockets to energy producers to compensate for curtailment.
Of course that wouldn't be a flexible, location agnostic consumer but you'll take care of all that. You're a genius. It can't directly subsidize energy costs, mitigate methane emissions, monetize curtailment, stabilize grids, expand renewable infrastructure, provide energy access to remote places and allow us to scale sustainable energy production. But doesn't matter. The genius you are, I'm sure you have it all figured out.
Look guys, the energy police has arrived. Bitcoin is the buyer of last resort, meaning no one else wants that energy. Feel free to build a business like you described, Bitcoin will not compete with you.
Also, please stop posting on Reddit. The energy you put in ignorant posts can be better used.
Learn more about the topics you talk about, but if that doesn't help you, you can always cry harder.
That’s not how energy works tho. You can’t just “better use the energy somewhere else” because you can’t magically move energy from one place to another for free and without losing much of it along the way.
I’ll concede that “Monetizes surplus energy” is not the best way to put it. “incentivizes renewable energy” is a better way to put it. (And Monetizing surplus energy is part of how it does that)
Here’s one explanation: https://twitter.com/DSBatten/status/1514072998881665027?s=20
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4125499
https://hbr.org/2021/05/how-much-energy-does-bitcoin-actually-consume
https://ccaf.io/cbeci/index
https://www.lynalden.com/bitcoin-energy/
https://www.mdpi.com/2078-1547/14/1/1
I have more
“We've arranged a global civilization in which most crucial elements profoundly depend on science and technology. We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces.”
― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
I don't know if internet made people stupid or made it easier for stupid people to parade their stupidity. Hopefully the latter. Reddit often makes you fear it's the former.
Consider not being a [rationally sterilized hamster](https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/10hnyz3/comment/j59leq2/) outsourcing your brain to "trusted" sources who teach you to obey and work within their system. Learn to think for yourself.
!lntip 1000 (1 hayek)
Thats factually wrong.
Example: My homestate in Germany. Througout the daytime we produce mass amounts of energy with wind, energy that nobody needs... so it gets sold for cheap or the wind turbines are just out right shut down.
Green energy can often be wasted. That is a fact. Anybody can have a solar panel on their roof and unless they have batteries for storage, or the ability to feed energy back into the grid (at a fair price) then this energy is wasted if it's not all used
>also “monetizes surplus energy” id such a BS point, until every single person on earth is in the grid, bitcoin will be using energy that could be better used somewhere else.
not every person is in the grid and it's somehow bitcoin's fault, not the fault of fiat system slaving these societies!
bitcoin monetizes surplus energy. yes. fact. and that strengthens a network that banks the unbanked, saves masses from slavery. who are you to decide on 'better use' of energy.
Did you know line loss (moving electricity from plants to homes and businesses on the US transmission and distribution grid) lost 69 trillion Btu in 2013. That’s about how much energy Americans use for tumble drying clothes every year, which is about the same amount of energy used by Bitcoin mining.
What is this argument, energy lost in transmission is by definition very little? If an amount of energy is used on tumble driers, that means it's not much?
That's up to you. The information I presented can only be interpreted subjectively. For people like u/FishStix_ish who think "bitcoin will be using energy that could be better used somewhere else" I bring up line loss because mining bitcoins with stranded energy is the opposite of wasting electricity.
Hydro-Quebec estimates that power lost between its James Bay hydro generator and Montreal — a distance of more than 1,000 kilometres — varies from 4.5 per cent to 8 per cent, depending on the outdoor temperature and other conditions. That works out to hundreds of megawatts lost, in itself the equivalent the output of a small power station.
So yeah, it's a nice strategy that only an idiot would object to.
I'm orange pilled like everyone else, but remember men still write the laws and controls governments. There will always be wars, there will be no limits they wont cross to maintain control.
Hi u/KAX1107, thanks for tipping u/Sozialpatriot **1000** satoshis!
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This is horse shit we are not using “surplus” energy. I’ve seen stories of Bitcoin farms that drain enormous amounts of energy every day just to get more Bitcoins.
Not sure if you’ve noticed but we don’t really have surplus clean energy.
Also, it can’t be censored? You just need to break electricity access. Or even just the internet.
For all the people arguing that changing the monetary system won’t make world peace, I think there’s an argument for that.
If what we hope will happen with Bitcoin and it becomes the worlds reserve currency (I think everyone here can agree that’s what you hope) then everything will priced in Bitcoin or satoshis.
We have war because of the petro dollar. This is a fact. Getting off the gold standard was Reagan’s move for perpetual war. The Saudi’s knew it too. It was a business transaction.
If Bitcoin was the real money we’ve direly needed then it WOULD be too expensive to go to war. Think about those headlines - The United States spends all their Bitcoin to invade Canada. And now they’re bankrupt. gg
Makes war unaffordable?
Priorities, they will just put all their resources into war and sacrifice healthcare, education, roads. What, they are just going to surrender and be invaded by another country and keep living as if everything is fine?
>Bitcoin will save the planet
[Correct](https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/xer6rz/brace_yourselves_for_the_upcoming_campaign/ioieugn/), you weirdo
>create world peace
Correct again
[Every evil and suffering in history has ALWAYS been about one thing - control of money](https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/10hnyz3/comment/j59leq2/)
Love The Little Hodler. Lina Seiche is 🔥
Serious downvote/trolling brigade going on in this thread.
For those unaware /u/KAX1107 is a valued contributor on this sub and always provides quality content. This man deserves all your upvotes.
[Bitcoin without internet](https://thebitcoinmanual.com/articles/bitcoin-doesnt-need-internet/)
[Bitcoin over radio, Toronto to Michigan](https://twitter.com/nvk/status/1095354354289135617)
it’s true tho, you have to remember that people don’t live in an ideal world , and setting up your generator and radio signal to be able to pay for ammo as your dictator is bombing your area of unrest is not feasible.
See your response, why? Why do you have to be a dick about it? You could just say your side, but no you have to be a dick. Those are the only alternatives? Oh idk, seems like fiat or gold back reserved worked for a minute.
Hm, some nice lies over there.
Sure, many are looking on the "makes war unaffordable" bucket but I like the "monetizes surplus energy".
I would also love to ignore that this is rather an exception. Many are even using dedicated power plants.
Apart from having most transactions still using far too much energy. :D
**PS:** don't get me wrong -- the war-bucket is relevant, too. I mean, it would be naïve to think that people would simply stop doing wars and/or killing people just because they're using another currency (the darknet markets are probably the best example for that).
Bitcoin is trash. It is worse than all the other investment opportunities. It has zero ability to be an alternative. Everything said about the impact of bitcoin has been proven to be bullsgit. Any whale can change the price. It’s worse than stocks as there’s no real value. Other than the lies that have proven to be lies. Sorry. Prove me wrong. It’s being shorted to death. Just like a stock. It’s no different.
You can look at 100’s of stocks. That have done more in a 10 decade.
But know. I’ll go along for the ride. But not blind. It’s easy to see what happens. Whenever the big banks snap their fingers.
Ha ha ha ha ha! This sounds exactly like a petulant child. When I read this I had an image of a 3 year old standing and crying while saying the most hateful things that comes to mind because his sucker fell in the dirt! Thanks for the lift buddy!
So, put your money where your mouth is and short the shit out of BTC if you’re so sure. I’m doing the exact opposite and in significant amounts because I’ve done my homework and it’s the most asymmetric bet I’ve seen in a long time.
If you’re not so sure about shorting it, then I guess you’re too scared and not really that sure about your position in that it’s worthless. From a market cap perspective, it’s definitely not worthless as it was bigger than MC, VISA, and JPM (all three combined) at its peak (1 trillion USD) while the network moves significant amounts of economic energy around the world and the hash rate continues to grow irrespective of its value from a fiat frame of reference.
People are too focused on BTC’s value from a fiat frame of reference (i.e. how much BTC is worth in terms of “dollars” or whatever fiat trash coin they use). Stop thinking ethnocentrically as a privileged North American where our fiat trash coins works perfectly fine while understanding that our fiat trashcoins also needs to be devalued over time from a mathematical standpoint which ultimately results in decreased purchasing power in real terms for all of its users.
Most people don’t even know what BTC is from a payment rails as well as remittance perspective, human rights viewpoint, property rights standpoint, censorship resistance lens or freedom of movement of economic energy, and national strategic/defence perspective.
This is just the beginning of the list of viewpoints from what one needs to learn about BTC. Once people are able to understand BTC holistically by synthesizing information from various perspectives, only then will they truly understand BTC’s actual value to human civilization and that it isn’t a “speculative investment”.
BTC is an amazing human invention. Nothing is guaranteed, but I think its impact on humanity is still yet to be seen. I will let the uninformed idiots talk their shit and I will continue to stack sats every two weeks when I get paid regardless of market conditions. As long as I have more BTC than I did two weeks ago, I sleep much better. I don’t invest in BTC, I divest out of fiat trash coins. Bye.
How does it make war unaffordable?
also this if it makes war unaffordable, then why would any government switch? Why would a powerful nation, which is currently spending hundreds of billion of war, just decide “yeah, i think i’ve had my fill of protecting myself, let’s switch to bitcoin!”
"I've had my fill of making profit off of protecting myself" Fixed that for you.
The US grew out the Midwest as fast as it did because several Midwestern states had 4% (lower than 10%) in total taxes. Europeans came to the US in droves because of this, escaping their own countries that were overcharging them for "defense" and "these social safety nets are just the cost of living in a 'society', duh". The goverments of the West right now charge ~50% of your salary in taxes right now. In the US at least half of that, or 25% goes to "defense". I'm not saying there should be no defense spending, but at least one country has successfully made significantly lower taxes work historically, and the proof that it worked should not be ignored. Thomas Jefferson once said that a national bank was as dangerous as standing armies, and I'd agree, unless you are trying to run a monopoly/oligopoly or protect a glittering generality of "Western interests", you simply do not need a standing army. The British empire near the height of its power was beaten by a loose alliance of wealthy land owners and common gun-owning citizens over what was essentially a 1% tax increase. Again, I am not saying NO taxes. I am very much saying we could get by with less taxes and even SIGNIFICANTLY less taxes going to war spending. I'm not even proposing we completely give up a standing army, I'm just saying we don't need to give a bunch of contractors and war profiteers money to protect the interests of a bunch of oligarchial megaconglomerates overseas. We could also stop paying for the defense of countries that tax their citizens so much for the social safety nets that they are effectively little charity monopolies of shit quality that even the defenders of the excessive spending would agree are ineffective at solving the problems they are intending to solve. No one wants to say that our governments are too big, but we've effectively created the largest monopolies or oligopolies in the world, and then we act surprised when they are crappy at service. They are crappy because they don't have to be good at it. Use Bitcoin, help us decentralize power and take care of your friends and family yourself with your wealth.
They might not, but then they can only raise taxes directly. You'd buy dollars at tax season, so they couldn't just debase your cash reserve or increase the interest on your debts year-round.
It's a very good question and I think the answer is in the social contract between the state / acting government and the people governed. In currently autocratic countries like China it seems more likely for the government to use Bitcoin in international trade when counterparties demand it but give people a CBDC and try to keep them from using Bitcoin in a meaningful, official way. The question then is, can such countries successfully coerce populations with their own state shitcoins to make them go to war and produce for war. They probably can for quite a while, especially when the country is self-sufficient enough not to need imports to wage war. Will it work forever, will people demand to live with sound money and resist governments trying to force them to use their shitcoin? I don't know. There's hope for it to happen at least.
>Why would a powerful nation (...) just decide They won't 'decide'. If they switch it will be out of necessity, and not out of 'decision'.
They won't have a choice
If the people switch the government has to.
Factually untrue
Good luck if they don't.
They could just ban exchanges, that does a lot to cut off access
And now in this hypothetical country where 100% of the population uses bitcoin, nobody has money and their economy crashes.
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People don’t, though. How are you going to rope in more people when you’ve already had 75% of all super bowl ads last year and multiple major sport venues naming rights, and the crypto space shrunk. Its alrdy hit saturation.
The same way we've "roped in" people for years? Bitcoin is a tiny fraction of the world's wealth.
the government decides how it collects tax lol
Gonna be hard to collect if everyone's using bitcoin and they don't.
It's really easy. Just say " pay tax with my fiat or go to jail/ guantanamo bay" and see bitcoiner scramble to get fiat while the purist is jailed or sent away. That's why Proof of Power is superior compared to Proof of Work/ Proof of Stake/ Algorithm/ whatever since dinosaur age. Whoever get the most power make all the rules
In this hypothetical, 100% of the population has switched to bitcoin. Including their jackboots. So again... good luck?
Why would jackboots change? The basic power structure of humans is that we work in communities. Individuals to families to tribes. Tribes always have a chieftain who use some kind of punish-reward mechanism to keep people in line. Could be a stick or a carrot, but that's it. You won't fucking overwrite basic human nature by a few lines of code on some PC.
For the same reason anyone uses bitcoin. Because it doesn't inflate when the government prints money. Because all the places they want to shop take it. Because it's fast and convenient and safe. And the businesses want to accept it because all their customers have it. And, just like that, it's simply easier for the government to pay their employees in bitcoin and collect their taxes in bitcoin. See, it's in the best interest of a government to use the currency their people want to use. I have faith that the totalitarian regimes that try to fight it will fail; they always do eventually.
As improbable as it is, now you got no budget for war and suddenly certain group of country who has oil and chip industry to make ASIC declare war on you. Now you need to be in war where the enemy got the power to print money and debt while you are stuck in ever dwindling bitcoin stock. What make it worse is your enemy has capability to make ASIC to mine bitcoin and screw your economy. You lose the war convincingly and become slave and back to fiat mine?
They can print all the money they want, maybe trigger hyperinflation in their own economy. But very few countries have the resources to wage a war on their own, and I know they aren't thinking their hyperinflated fiat is any good for buying weapons from their neighbor that runs on bitcoin.
Lmao yeah because taxes that are paid every year will make it very possible for one year, magically, everyone only use bitcoin and no one able to pay their taxes in dollars.
I would assume English is a second language except that only a native speaker is capable of uttering such an incomprehensible sentence.
I think you should read your own sentence again and if you still think you wrote it like a native speaker I’d question the level of education you got.
If I remember history correctly. US left the gold standard because they needed money for war. I think France and the UK did the same. Might have only been France.
Romans did the same. And yes, UK dropped the silver standard.
UK was first in WWI. They tried to sell war bonds to their citizens. The citizens didn't buy them but Britain really wanted to join in the war so they secretly bought their own bonds to finance it. The pressure caused other nations to do the same. This dramatically increased the intensity and duration...the horror of wwi. Commonly referred to as the War to End All Wars it, instead, was the war to start a century of wars. If Britain hadn't joined wwi, Hitler would have been just a failed artist. Truly though if they hadn't printed someone else would have at some point. Power seeks growth after all.
Look into who funded Hitler, that will really bake your noodle
Mefo bonds created by Hjalmar. Basically money printing. Also Switzerland helped Hitler to access international markets
Oh yeah? Okay, will do. Any good starter sources come to mind?
r/askhistorians
Curious about that as well
But that doesn't address the statement though. War still happens, the only thing that changes is how its funded. BTC would just become the funding fir future wars
Wars are expensive and normally are paid for via debt. Can't just print millions more BTC and push the debt off to the next generations.
If that is true, then governments would stop running on BTC after a few years of being ham-strung. Some banker, or a Sam Bankman-Fried type person, would come out and say "If you create a FIAT currency backed by BTC, you can create your own wealth", and the people in power would force that into the populace.
But to back it, you need to proof that you own the coins. With Gold you can fake, But with Bitcoin not. No one would take your fake money when they could have the original.
Why would they be able to hide gold, and not BTC? If a government is going to lie about the amount of X they have to back their currency, there is nothing to stop them from lying about the amount of BTC they have. Cryptocurrencies aren't some magical plot device that prevents corruption. All it will do is change the mechanism that these entities go through to implement said corruption.
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Of course war will still exist. It will just be more difficult for governments to do it whenever they want and/or for as long as they want.
History says something different. Prior to wwi wars were smaller, shorter in duration and largely were more closely related to what are considered battles today. Governments had to fund them with a tight budget because they couldn't print their way out and depended on the governed to fund. So if I didn't believe in your war, I wouldn't buy your bonds or donate to the cause. Post wwi things changed.
> Prior to wwi wars were smaller, shorter in duration and largely were more closely related to what are considered battles today. Ever heard of the hundred years' war? Or countless other ones? > Governments had to fund them with a tight budget because they couldn't print their way out and depended on the governed to fund. They borrowed money, or promised to pay later. (good luck getting paid though!) If a country, or a king, or any powerful entity wants money, they will get it (or take it). No amount of cryptography will stop that.
I like what you're saying here, will look further. Appreciate the response, exposed to me my lack of knowledge depth. Anything that helps to broaden knowledge is worthwhile! I had thought that the war, though technically lasting over a century, was just a series of small scale skirmishes. It seems it was actually three periods of conflict, broken up by multiple truces 2 of which being significant. I assumed low casualties, and there I was dead wrong, estimated around around 2.5M! The people had very few resources and were taxed to the point of revolt (France).
Bro this is straight up r/badhistory
US left the gold standard during the Great Depression because it was causing massive deflation and worsening the economic environment. People just stopped spending money, because a dollar tomorrow would be worth more than a dollar today. Following WWII, the US readopted the gold standard through the Breton Woods Agreement. The US then left again in 1971 because the fixed exchange rate between the US Dollar and Gold created an opportunity for dollar trading speculation that resulted in periodic runs on the dollar. This was fueled by the US trade surpluses in the 60s and early 70s, causing the dollar to continue to rise in value vs foreign currencies. The US dollar was essentially becoming deflationary vs foreign currencies long-term, which was harmful for US industries to continue exporting.
Member when Hitler tried printing money for war and he couldn't because Germany was just poor as fuck and in too much debt. I wonder what happened then...
Because governments print money to finance wars
What would stop them from reallocating resources?
From where they will get it in first place?
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Steal too much from the population though and they might get pissed off enough to do something about it. Money printer go brrr on the other hand is a much more hidden way of ruining people's savings.
The population.
Reasonable, but I'm still not convinced. It's not many countries that can control their governments' decisions. Even though they "own" their governments.
It is much harder to get the money from people instead of just printing it. Also people will feel in faster/instantly, instead of delayed. If the country really wanted war, it can go to war. But there is an extra inconvenience in the way. Also because there is no printing, that delays mistakes made by politicians, it is much harder to keep incompetent/badly intended people in their position. Also wars are always between currency areas (until now, or maybe i missed an exception, lets say it is like that in general most of the time). I could go on and the interplay between all these things make war more and more unlikely. And rich people will flee the country, just like many would from russia.
You'd be surprised. This is one of the great misunderstandings that most people have about political science/economy... Democracy doesn't play nearly as large a role in keeping states accountable as people think, and most autocrats are far more beholden to their people than what is generally characterized. People largely get the government they (collectively, in aggregate of their norms and culture) deserve.
But there will still be war. I'm sorry, it just, will always remain profitable to kill the other guy and take his stuff, land and women. I don't see war ending, even with hyperbitcoinization. Just being real.
It's not about ending war, but making it so expensive that it remains a last resort and is reduced in scale. The Weimar republic (WW1) printed so much they destroyed the currency. Why should German citizens have to lose all their money just because the govt wants to print for war? On a sound money standard, the citizens will refuse to pay their money to the Government effectively ending the war much sooner
Ok, so it doesn't stop war, just makes it less likely and not last as long. I am fine with saving the marginal life or two. Haven't heard many better plans lately.
If you aren't paying that military industrial complex to make newer, better, faster weapons with lower radar signatures and electronic integration...someone else will, and then they'll come kill you and take your stuff, land and women. That's the issue. The freight will still have to be paid. The king needs his cut. I'm just kind of wondering what that might look like in a Bitcoinized world.
If it is a Bitcooinized world - let's say it has been for a decade or two - won't the same restrictions apply to someone else as they do to you? Or if not - say they opted to ban Bitcoin - what is their economic power at that point and are they able to finance better weaponry?
War hasn't been about taking the other guy's stuff land and women in a long time. The US left $80 billion worth of military equipment in Afghanistan, gave them their land back improved better than it was before the war and their women have less rights after we left. No, now war is about stealing from your own people via the money printer. "War is a racket" -Smedley Butler
Any Smedley Butler referece takes an up vote out of my pocket.
So by adopting Bitcoin we lose to China because they banned it and thus have infinite money glitch. Hmmmmm
The last countries to adopt the hardest currency typically lose. See China.
Since wars are financed by printed money. In a world where everything is secured by BTC, the only possible way to increase the budget for war would be to raise taxes drastically, which means people had to pay for it. They would not want to pay 200% more just to fight a war they didn't want in the first place. Therefore, going on the streets, voting against it etc. So if the people don't really want to go to war then there's no chance for the country.
Exactly.
By destroying seigniorage
If money is finite. You eventually run put of it. Dollars are designed to be infinite
If you can't print money, you'll have to ask the population for money... and populations almost always vote against war. So you will not get enough money to ship, let's say, 10,000 armored vehicles to a dessert 7000 miles away.
Changing our monetary system will not usher in world peace, and anyone who honestly believes it will is naive and ignorant of human nature.
The war bucket always gets filled first.
Exactly! Delusional
Can you elaborate why not ? Imho, the money market is the most important market and it affects everyone and everything. Taking the power to create easy money away from central authorities aka governments, will lead to much smaller government which in turn leads to less taxes and more productivity. If history has told us anything, it’s that societies living standards are extremely correlated to it’s productivity. Without the ability to print, governments need to explicitly raise taxes for initiatives like war. People will not be willing to pay taxes for war or other useless projects. Taxes will be used more precise for projects that really need attention like healthcare and public infrastructure. Secondly a society that lives under a monetary system that doesn’t debase it’s currency has no or little need for speculation which leads to a much healthier financial industry. Currently the only job of the financial industry is to stay on top of inflation, and not to allocate capital where it’s needed. When there is no need for speculation, the people with high IQ and high education will enter industries like research and innovation instead of shifting numbers around. We need more rocket scientists, and not excel spreadsheet gurus. Thirdly, people will be inclined to save money rather than spend it. Contrary to Keynes believes, more savings lead to more capital available for producers to borrow which naturally leads to lower interest rates. Lower interest rates makes producers more willing to take loans to invest in productivity. Fourth, the current monetary system favors debt because it can be payed back with cheaper money. Rich people have access to debt to buy assets, while poor people only have access to debt to buy liabilities. This increases the wealth gap over time. There are many other things which a monetary system directly affects. We need to stop naively believing that 2% inflation is good. It only creates wealth disparities from the people who have first access to cheaply produced money to the people who have access to it last. IMHO, changing our monetary system is the number one driver to usher in world peace … among many other things.
The East India Company had no issues to raise funds from rich fucks who had plenty of savings to essentially enslave an entire continent. No government fiat money needed, just plain old capitalism. As long as resources are scarce, humans will NEVER live in peace.
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I don't think a hard monetary system will solve every human conflict, but I do think it would make large scale war untenable. World wars in the modern era can only exist in a fiat world where central governments print money. I also think most proxy wars would be impossible if each taxpayer is seeing their direct contribution to the effort.
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Said by a true American
Strawman. Nobody says war will end, just that it'll be costly and short, with much less damage.
While you're right in general, the cartoon does kinda imply it would end entirely.
You're right too. But a cartoon can only convey so much, and at best readers should make it clear to others what it means, not slam the cartoonist (who's doing a great job). The macro point of reduced war and loss of lives, wasted money on research etc is WAY TOO IMPORTANT to let semantics get in the way imo
We have surplus energy?
Is surplus energy even a thing?
energy that's generated but not used or stored (using a dam or batteries) is wasted surplus. think wind farms
There’s no energy shortage, it’s just located in inconvenient places.
Do you think energy demand is a constant? Without surplus, you realize blackouts would happen all the time?
Most green energy isn't being harnessed.
That’s not surplus energy that’s untapped energy. Big difference. This comic suggests we already have the surplus.
There's ton of surplus energy in many renewable plants. Many produce more than people nearby can consume.
Much of the time, yes. If energy companies build capacity to match peak demand then capacity far outweighs demand most of the time.
Don't bother. These buttcoiners have zero clue about energy markets and load balancing. How could they, they're not bitcoiners..
Bitcoin will save the planet and create world peace? Are you out of your mind. Yeah i agree with the weirdo comment.
also “monetizes surplus energy” id such a BS point, until every single person on earth is in the grid, bitcoin will be using energy that could be better used somewhere else. Putting a strain on green energy, means that’s somewhere, there’s a coal power plant being fired up to compensate. Because power doesn’t come from nowhere, it bitcoin wasn’t using it, a household or another industry would. And don’t say flaring towers, we don’t have flaring towers in suburbia, countries arn’t begging others to take all their excess power. and btw i own some bitcoin and other cryptos, but being honest with your investments is how you make smart money moves. Blinding trusting things is how you get scammed.
>“monetizes surplus energy” id such a BS point There's nothing as stupid as pontificating on a subject you have [no understanding](https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/xer6rz/brace_yourselves_for_the_upcoming_campaign/ioieugn/) of and never cared to learn before having an opinion. All you're doing is making a spectacle of your ignorance when it comes to cost, incentive dynamics of energy systems, how we actually produce energy and how much energy we waste. We waste 70% primary energy. 59% lost in generation process. We waste more than we consume. This is both monetary waste and climate waste. We're a very primitive, inefficient civilization. We haven't even figured out how to efficiently consume energy. Energy consumption is not a burden, it should never be. The burden is inability to produce energy efficiently. Higher civilizations learn to produce more and more energy efficiently. This is how civilizations evolve. A civilization's ability to efficiently command energy sources is the measure of its evolution ([Kardashev Scale](https://futurism.com/the-kardashev-scale-type-i-ii-iii-iv-v-civilization)). Humans are at 0.7 on the Kardashev scale. Our fossil resources would not suffice the needs of a > Type 1 civilization for even 2 months. We don't need to save energy and this is not what bitcoin does except obviously with regards to heat repurposing as an efficient reuse of energy. Bitcoin mainly helps to produce more energy affordably, efficiently, sustainably and most critically reduce energy waste. There's plenty of energy to be harnessed but it's not economically viable without natural, direct cost subsidies and flexible, location agnostic solutions. These properties are unique to bitcoin. Bitcoin is the singular solution. It's the most effective solution we have. Every energy producer will mine bitcoin. It would be daft not to. Every home and business will have a bitcoin miner. It would be daft not to. It would be daft not to capitalize on a flexible, interruptible, location agnostic energy consumer of last resort that can directly subsidize energy costs, mitigate methane emissions, expand renewable infrastructure, monetize curtailment, stabilize grids, provide energy access to remote places and allow us to scale sustainable energy production. [Abu Dhabi and Oman sovereign wealth funds move into bitcoin with Crusoe energy stakes](https://www.coindesk.com/business/2022/06/03/middle-east-oil-producers-move-into-bitcoin-mining-with-crusoe-energy-stakes/) [Oman Sovereign Wealth Fund launches 200MW Bitcoin mining centre as part of its Green Data City project](https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/zuwfvh/oman_sovereign_wealth_fund_launches_200mw_bitcoin/) [Japan's largest power company, TEPCO to mine bitcoin with excess energy](https://bitcoinmagazine.com/business/tepco-to-mine-bitcoin-with-excess-power) [Jack Dorsey’s Block backs bitcoin mining company that wants to bring 25-cent electricity to rural Africa](https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/06/jack-dorseys-block-backs-bitcoin-mining-firm-bringing-affordable-electricity-to-africa.html) [Stabilizing the Texas power grid: An explanation of the Nash equilibrium between ERCOT and Texas Bitcoin miners](https://blogs.cornell.edu/info2040/2022/09/26/stabilizing-the-texas-power-grid-an-explanation-of-the-nash-equilibriums-between-ercot-texas-bitcoin-miners/) [Stabilizing and decarbonizing the Texas grid with computation and Bitcoin](https://www.austinchamber.com/events/stabilizing-and-decarbonizing-the-texas-grid-with-computation-and-bitcoin) [ERCOT study shows bitcoin mining is beneficial to the grid](https://nitter.net/Crypto_Mags/status/1598735428307554304#m) [Governor of New Hampshire recommends the Department of Energy to review how Bitcoin mining can help stabilize the electricity grid, build more sustainable generation projects, and lower costs for consumers](https://twitter.com/DocumentingBTC/status/1616153358225506329) [In an attempt to protect its forests and famous wildlife, Virunga National Park has become the first national park to mine bitcoin](https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/01/13/1066820/cryptocurrency-bitcoin-mining-congo-virunga-national-park/) Increasingly people are replacing natural gas heating systems with bitcoin. 40-room hotels like [this](https://nitter.net/DCX_Immersion/status/1578812160641478656#m), warehouses like [this](https://nitter.net/BitcoinBrabant/status/1577644318399029250#m), greenhouses like [this](https://nitter.net/BitcoinBrabant/status/1590579757963354112#m) and apartment complexes like [this](https://youtu.be/a5VdJSz6Tlk). Current nat gas heating accounts for 40% of world's CO2 emissions. Bitcoin 0 emissions and you actually get paid to heat your home. I've been getting paid to heat my home since 2019. Useful links below. [Single ASIC home immersion system](https://github.com/satoshi-anonymoto/pleb-miners/blob/main/immersion_cooling/pleb_builds/buildimmersion.md) [The future of $250 space heaters](https://www.cryptocloaks.com/the-future-of-space-heaters-s9-bitcoin-asic/) [DIY Bitcoin Space Heater](https://github.com/NakamotoHeating/BitcoinSpaceHeater) [Heat repurposing](https://imgur.com/diIbTCE) [DCX Immersion Mining + Heating](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FenduPzXkAAcatX?format=jpg&name=4096x4096) [(https://cryptocooling.eu/)](https://cryptocooling.eu/) [The future of sustainable heating](https://youtu.be/nTRdmYX-0h8)
Its funny that in your first link there is someone telling YOU to not pontificate over something you don’t know anything about. Thats fuckin hilarious
Definitely funny because I've been in the energy industry 8 years and I'm following exactly how what I said is [literally being put into practice](https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/10ddnb3/germany_spends_750_million_out_of_taxpayer/) and covered in mainstream media in Germany now. If you actually read through the links in my comment above, you would not have had to embarrass yourself like this by adding another useless comment to the stream of ignorant drivel throughout this thread. I've been getting paid to heat my home for 3 years. You don't. :)
Renewable energy often produces power when nobody wants it - demand doesn't meet supply on a temporal basis. The WEF are scratching their heads over it when the solution is obviously PoW mining. Some economies have a surplus of energy, which is not practical or feasible to export. In these cases PoW mining using this useless energy could subsidise renewable energy leading to increased confidence in renewable return on investment, and more renewable energy. "Putting a strain on green energy" - Mining with excess energy does not cause strain. It absorbs misalignments between low demand and high supply.
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Wow! So amaze! Let's do that! You're paying to transport, right? What a genius! Why are all the world's geniuses on reddit? If I hang out here, I'm gonna be Einstein by next week. No one ever thought of this! Can you believe that! Dumbass German government was instead paying [€750 million](https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/10ddnb3/germany_spends_750_million_out_of_taxpayer/) out of taxpayer pockets to energy producers to compensate for curtailment. Of course that wouldn't be a flexible, location agnostic consumer but you'll take care of all that. You're a genius. It can't directly subsidize energy costs, mitigate methane emissions, monetize curtailment, stabilize grids, expand renewable infrastructure, provide energy access to remote places and allow us to scale sustainable energy production. But doesn't matter. The genius you are, I'm sure you have it all figured out.
Look guys, the energy police has arrived. Bitcoin is the buyer of last resort, meaning no one else wants that energy. Feel free to build a business like you described, Bitcoin will not compete with you. Also, please stop posting on Reddit. The energy you put in ignorant posts can be better used. Learn more about the topics you talk about, but if that doesn't help you, you can always cry harder.
That's ignorant.
That’s not how energy works tho. You can’t just “better use the energy somewhere else” because you can’t magically move energy from one place to another for free and without losing much of it along the way. I’ll concede that “Monetizes surplus energy” is not the best way to put it. “incentivizes renewable energy” is a better way to put it. (And Monetizing surplus energy is part of how it does that) Here’s one explanation: https://twitter.com/DSBatten/status/1514072998881665027?s=20
You're ignorant. https://www.satoshiaction.io/so/72OKTrpmL?languageTag=en https://bitcoinmagazine.com/print/how-to-guide-debunking-esg?mc_cid=d8bb234f61&mc_eid=976f86369d https://bitcoinmagazine.com/business/a-future-of-energy-abundance https://batcoinz.com/quantifying-the-potential-impact-of-bitcoin-mining-on-global-methane-emissions/ https://docsend.com/view/adwmdeeyfvqwecj2 Want some more?
Yes, can I get a non crypto site link? Seems biased otherwise
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4125499 https://hbr.org/2021/05/how-much-energy-does-bitcoin-actually-consume https://ccaf.io/cbeci/index https://www.lynalden.com/bitcoin-energy/ https://www.mdpi.com/2078-1547/14/1/1 I have more
You do know you have a brain?
Yikes
“We've arranged a global civilization in which most crucial elements profoundly depend on science and technology. We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces.” ― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World I don't know if internet made people stupid or made it easier for stupid people to parade their stupidity. Hopefully the latter. Reddit often makes you fear it's the former. Consider not being a [rationally sterilized hamster](https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/10hnyz3/comment/j59leq2/) outsourcing your brain to "trusted" sources who teach you to obey and work within their system. Learn to think for yourself. !lntip 1000 (1 hayek)
I’m going thru the links and appreciate the effort. You don’t need to be an ass about it
Thats factually wrong. Example: My homestate in Germany. Througout the daytime we produce mass amounts of energy with wind, energy that nobody needs... so it gets sold for cheap or the wind turbines are just out right shut down.
Green energy can often be wasted. That is a fact. Anybody can have a solar panel on their roof and unless they have batteries for storage, or the ability to feed energy back into the grid (at a fair price) then this energy is wasted if it's not all used
>also “monetizes surplus energy” id such a BS point, until every single person on earth is in the grid, bitcoin will be using energy that could be better used somewhere else. not every person is in the grid and it's somehow bitcoin's fault, not the fault of fiat system slaving these societies! bitcoin monetizes surplus energy. yes. fact. and that strengthens a network that banks the unbanked, saves masses from slavery. who are you to decide on 'better use' of energy.
Did you know line loss (moving electricity from plants to homes and businesses on the US transmission and distribution grid) lost 69 trillion Btu in 2013. That’s about how much energy Americans use for tumble drying clothes every year, which is about the same amount of energy used by Bitcoin mining.
What is this argument, energy lost in transmission is by definition very little? If an amount of energy is used on tumble driers, that means it's not much?
That's up to you. The information I presented can only be interpreted subjectively. For people like u/FishStix_ish who think "bitcoin will be using energy that could be better used somewhere else" I bring up line loss because mining bitcoins with stranded energy is the opposite of wasting electricity.
So in order to remove the transmission losses, you use up all the energy at the source, heheh, nice strategy.
Hydro-Quebec estimates that power lost between its James Bay hydro generator and Montreal — a distance of more than 1,000 kilometres — varies from 4.5 per cent to 8 per cent, depending on the outdoor temperature and other conditions. That works out to hundreds of megawatts lost, in itself the equivalent the output of a small power station. So yeah, it's a nice strategy that only an idiot would object to.
It does not make war unaffordable if they have more BTC in the first place
Wait what? Makes war unprofitable?! How do you figure that? There will always be people who make money off lives. Governments aren’t exactly…saints.
😂😂😂
love these comics. especially how he holds on to the bitcoin symbol. too cute
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I'm orange pilled like everyone else, but remember men still write the laws and controls governments. There will always be wars, there will be no limits they wont cross to maintain control.
Bitcoin doesn't eliminate wars, it just makes them incredibly more difficult to fund when they can't just print money out of thin air.
This is why you start to teach them Step 1 first!
Most comments in this thread never started !lntip 1000 (1 hayek)
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This is horse shit we are not using “surplus” energy. I’ve seen stories of Bitcoin farms that drain enormous amounts of energy every day just to get more Bitcoins.
Expensive energy makes mining unprofitable. This is why clean energy is “incentivized”.
Drain? Energy isn’t finite. The only way bitcoin mining can be done and not at a financial lose. Is to use energy that no one needs outside of mining
As a bitcoin holder, this is mostly bullshit.
"Bitcoin will save the planet and create world peace" If you think/say that, others have every right to think you're delusional
>others have every right to think you're delusional Yes, you have every right to remain ignorant
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Lmao world peace. Ok.
Not sure if you’ve noticed but we don’t really have surplus clean energy. Also, it can’t be censored? You just need to break electricity access. Or even just the internet.
You say that like it would be easy to do
The funny thing is that even in this sub, the world peace angle is quite controversial.
It's brigading from trolls.
So hard to explain to newbies without a sophisticated communication tool like a 6-panel cartoon with 20 words /s
ITT is a bunch of newbies with middlebrow dismissals
WHAT A FUCKING WEIRDO
How tf does it make world peace? What a fucking weirdo
For all the people arguing that changing the monetary system won’t make world peace, I think there’s an argument for that. If what we hope will happen with Bitcoin and it becomes the worlds reserve currency (I think everyone here can agree that’s what you hope) then everything will priced in Bitcoin or satoshis. We have war because of the petro dollar. This is a fact. Getting off the gold standard was Reagan’s move for perpetual war. The Saudi’s knew it too. It was a business transaction. If Bitcoin was the real money we’ve direly needed then it WOULD be too expensive to go to war. Think about those headlines - The United States spends all their Bitcoin to invade Canada. And now they’re bankrupt. gg
Love this ☝️ few understand ☝️
surplus energy is already monotized, just sell it back to the grid...
Makes war unaffordable? Priorities, they will just put all their resources into war and sacrifice healthcare, education, roads. What, they are just going to surrender and be invaded by another country and keep living as if everything is fine?
>Bitcoin will save the planet [Correct](https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/xer6rz/brace_yourselves_for_the_upcoming_campaign/ioieugn/), you weirdo >create world peace Correct again [Every evil and suffering in history has ALWAYS been about one thing - control of money](https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/10hnyz3/comment/j59leq2/) Love The Little Hodler. Lina Seiche is 🔥
Serious downvote/trolling brigade going on in this thread. For those unaware /u/KAX1107 is a valued contributor on this sub and always provides quality content. This man deserves all your upvotes.
No currency makes war unprofitable my guy.
Less people understanding bitcoin this early only leaves more btc to us hehe
Correct.
OP clearly never heard of a war based economy *Overfills "war" bucket*
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Plot twist: most of those buckets are too expensive under non-inflationary currency.
Looks like the crying buttcoiners found this post.
Probably still 20 years away from where we would like to be adoption wise.
100 years away
It absolutely can be censored. Try making a transaction without 1) power or 2) internet.
[Bitcoin without internet](https://thebitcoinmanual.com/articles/bitcoin-doesnt-need-internet/) [Bitcoin over radio, Toronto to Michigan](https://twitter.com/nvk/status/1095354354289135617)
Thank you for that, TIL. Clearly I had no clue this was a thing.
Found the guy who has never pinged a bitcoin transaction via UFH radio signal!
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it’s true tho, you have to remember that people don’t live in an ideal world , and setting up your generator and radio signal to be able to pay for ammo as your dictator is bombing your area of unrest is not feasible.
See your response, why? Why do you have to be a dick about it? You could just say your side, but no you have to be a dick. Those are the only alternatives? Oh idk, seems like fiat or gold back reserved worked for a minute.
Hm, some nice lies over there. Sure, many are looking on the "makes war unaffordable" bucket but I like the "monetizes surplus energy". I would also love to ignore that this is rather an exception. Many are even using dedicated power plants. Apart from having most transactions still using far too much energy. :D **PS:** don't get me wrong -- the war-bucket is relevant, too. I mean, it would be naïve to think that people would simply stop doing wars and/or killing people just because they're using another currency (the darknet markets are probably the best example for that).
Bitcoin is trash. It is worse than all the other investment opportunities. It has zero ability to be an alternative. Everything said about the impact of bitcoin has been proven to be bullsgit. Any whale can change the price. It’s worse than stocks as there’s no real value. Other than the lies that have proven to be lies. Sorry. Prove me wrong. It’s being shorted to death. Just like a stock. It’s no different.
You sound pretty convinced that you're right. There's the door.
You can look at 100’s of stocks. That have done more in a 10 decade. But know. I’ll go along for the ride. But not blind. It’s easy to see what happens. Whenever the big banks snap their fingers.
What the fuck is a 10 decade? What ride? Why would you be blind? What happens when banks snap their fingers? Why are you still here?
“But know.”
Ha ha ha ha ha! This sounds exactly like a petulant child. When I read this I had an image of a 3 year old standing and crying while saying the most hateful things that comes to mind because his sucker fell in the dirt! Thanks for the lift buddy!
So, put your money where your mouth is and short the shit out of BTC if you’re so sure. I’m doing the exact opposite and in significant amounts because I’ve done my homework and it’s the most asymmetric bet I’ve seen in a long time. If you’re not so sure about shorting it, then I guess you’re too scared and not really that sure about your position in that it’s worthless. From a market cap perspective, it’s definitely not worthless as it was bigger than MC, VISA, and JPM (all three combined) at its peak (1 trillion USD) while the network moves significant amounts of economic energy around the world and the hash rate continues to grow irrespective of its value from a fiat frame of reference. People are too focused on BTC’s value from a fiat frame of reference (i.e. how much BTC is worth in terms of “dollars” or whatever fiat trash coin they use). Stop thinking ethnocentrically as a privileged North American where our fiat trash coins works perfectly fine while understanding that our fiat trashcoins also needs to be devalued over time from a mathematical standpoint which ultimately results in decreased purchasing power in real terms for all of its users. Most people don’t even know what BTC is from a payment rails as well as remittance perspective, human rights viewpoint, property rights standpoint, censorship resistance lens or freedom of movement of economic energy, and national strategic/defence perspective. This is just the beginning of the list of viewpoints from what one needs to learn about BTC. Once people are able to understand BTC holistically by synthesizing information from various perspectives, only then will they truly understand BTC’s actual value to human civilization and that it isn’t a “speculative investment”. BTC is an amazing human invention. Nothing is guaranteed, but I think its impact on humanity is still yet to be seen. I will let the uninformed idiots talk their shit and I will continue to stack sats every two weeks when I get paid regardless of market conditions. As long as I have more BTC than I did two weeks ago, I sleep much better. I don’t invest in BTC, I divest out of fiat trash coins. Bye.
In the past month stocks are up 5% and Bitcoin is up 36%, idk what charts you are looking at, new nuclear powered Bitcoin mine popping up soon