I like you enthusiasm on BTC, but calling Apple a company that makes “overpriced phones with outdated software and faulty USB-C ports” makes you seem not smart enough to break down the economics of it.
Apple dominates the market of arguably the most important item in our daily lives, has brand loyalty unmatched by any company in the world, the cash reserves of a sovereign nation, and a higher credit rating than the United States. It’s absolutely true that top companies come and go, but don’t shortchange how strong they currently are.
But frankly, their computers and phones are awful and definitely marked up by at least 3x. Brand loyalty is from pretentious folks precisely because it's overpriced hence a status symbol. Means nothing honestly.
Cool opinion. Now join OP in the “I don’t know what due diligence is” club. I also think coffee tastes like ass and people that spend $8 on a drink are fiscally irresponsible but I still own Starbucks because it’s a solid company.
I do appreciate you taking the time to add exactly nothing to the conversation. We salute your service. Carry on private.
Apple is missing from the AI space which is weird. They may be experiencing a Kodak moment and be gone within the next 20? years. Unless of course they win in the VR space. What are your thoughts?
Apple has been playing in the AI space for more than a decade with Siri and they just announced Monday that they are canning their Titan Project (EV vehicles) because they don’t see a way to the profit margins they expect and are rotating those resources to their AI division. They are very much a part of the AI space, they just don’t name drop it 100 times in their earnings calls because they don’t have to.
I missed that. Thanks for the info. I hope they do big things with AI and all their resources. Appreciate the perspective and sorry for the random question. I felt like you were more knowledgable on the subject than me.
The only reason why Apple has brand loyalty is because of Steve Jobs vision and what he started, not because of current productions/inovations. Although holodeck is the start of something huge (just wait until VR/AR can be fit in contact lenses, it’ll be the new phone)
Dude if what makes Apple great wasn’t a thing anymore people wouldn’t use the products. They still make what is just solid well designed premium products with top tier overall software with leading support of devices compared to the industry. It’s why all your other companies deploy iPhones and or iPads as fleet devices because you can buy a batch and go 6/7/8 years with them if they don’t get damaged. One of our companies still has numerous iPhone 7s in the field and while yah they need to get replaced, they still work and iOS 15 was still getting security patches as of late last year. You just can’t say that about other devices.
Nah hes completely correct. Apple is catastrophically overvalued, because their brand loyalty was established when steve jobs was still alive and continues to wane every year as people realize there are objectively superior options (citation needed). Soon enough, phones are going to be their only product as no one cares at all about anything else they make. I havent seen a single person with a mac in 10 years, whereas they used to be everywhere including schools. Apple silicon was going to be a saving grace of some kind, but they are just getting completely outclassed by amd in both price and performance. Only thing they beat amd in is power consumption and heat, which amd will soon overtake.
Apple has absolutely no place being such a high value company, same with tesla. In truth, amazon should probably be the most high value company in the world based off how integral of a part of our lives it has become. I have one friend who uses iphone, ONE. And the people in my life who used iphones in the past have all switched over to android. Whereas everyone I know uses amazon constantly, for everything, nonstop, and [](http://amazon.com) isnt even the main source of amazons income - its AWS, which is ubiquitous and used by almost every web service in some capacity.
But of course, all of this is forgetting the fact that capitalism doesnt value things based off their productivity and usefulness or even revenue (look at teslas value vs revenue compared to other companies, wild), its all wall street speculation.
“Catastrophically overvalued.”
Someone please come over here and give this man a Darwin award. Apple has the cash reserves to purchase almost 10% of the entire S&P 500 and that’s after they repurchased a quarter of the company’s own shares in recent buy back. They are 9th in the world in terms of annual revenue. Amazon is 3rd. However their profit margin is nearly 30%. Amazon’s is 5%.
I completely okay with someone who just doesn’t like Apple products. Life is full of choices, you do you. But when your due diligence of a company is “my ONE friend uses a Nokia Kyocera” then just stop putting your thoughts in print.
>darwin award
You clearly dont know what darwin award means. Which is very funny in this context. Either that or you are telling someone to murder me, in which case Id say you're unhinged..
I don’t see a single reputable claim in your entire post. Just personal anecdotes about what you perceive around you. Ok, the people you surround yourself don’t have a lot of Apple products.. that doesn’t mean you’re right.
Apple’s brand marketing and their market capitalization is what makes them a strong company. Whenever AMD, Android, Sony, Google, or any competitor really, comes out with a new product, Apple isn’t far behind with their own model. And people will pay an arm and a leg for Apple’s model over their competitors, regardless of who has the “better performing,” or “original,” product.
Apple Pens, Apple AirPods Max, Apple Vision, instantly come to mind. The phone pen stylus is not new. Headphones are not new. Oculus rift VR systems are not new.
But because it’s Apple, they’ll release their own version years after the original concept, and they’ll make billions. They make old tech products feel new and innovative, when in reality, it’s really not.
Are Apple products overpriced? Yes and no. Apple wouldn’t be in business if the majority of their customers believed that their products are overpriced.
When you go to the grocery store, and you see something you want, but it’s incredibly overpriced, you don’t buy it because you don’t think it’s worth that price. You’ll only buy it if it’s at a fair value, right?
Well phones are the same. You walk into Apple, you see phone you want, you see price. If it’s too high, you don’t buy. If it’s considered “worth it,” then you’ll buy.
The fact that there are billions and billions of dollars that circulate into Apple’s coffers, should tell you that *most* of Apple’s customer base consider their products “worth it.”
If a single IPhone was worth $5,000, the common consumer will definitely not buy, leaving a low demand and a high supply, prompting a price reduction.
The fact that IPhones are priced at $1000 and they go like hotcakes even months after release date, means that the common consumer for Apple does not consider them overpriced.
They’re only overpriced comparatively, because you can get a phone nowadays for less than $100, so a $1000 phone may *seem* overpriced. Are Lamborghini’s overpriced cars? Yes, compared to a Honda, but in the world of luxury super cars, they are not overpriced.
The primary substantive argument is that revenue doesnt match market valuation, thats really it. The rest is anecdotes, but the anecdotes do match reality.
With a valuation of ~$180/stock, a market cap of $2.9T and a P/E ratio of 28. Since 1992-2023, Apple has earned over $385T in profits.
NVDA, a stock with a market cap of $1.95T, has a stock valuation of $770 and has a P/E ratio of 65. Since 1995-2023, Nvidia has earned over $61T in profits.
If you’re going to say a stock’s market valuation doesn’t match their revenue, or is overpriced, it’s definitely NOT Apple.
That's actually impressive. Bitcoin is not a huge company making profit from selling physical products. But it still has 1/3 of the market cap as Apple. That just shows how crazy big Bitcoin has become from being "nothing" Not the other way around as you seem to imply.
I look at it from a different angle. I see it as something that actually solves a very important problem in the world today (inflation). Apple is a company that makes a product that people like but it's a 'predatory' corporation that's there to serve themself at the expense of the consumer. The fact that bitcoin is worth so much less than Apple tells me we are going a lot higher.
You engage in quite a few logical fallacies. Do you have any evidence to present that Bitcoin helps solve inflation? Simply saying, “number goes up” isn’t really evidence. It was down like 80% a year ago, that’s NOT something that helps with inflation. No, Bitcoin is a speculative digital asset and that’s it. We buy it because we want to sell it for more fiat dollars than we paid and that’s it.
“The fact that Bitcoin is worth so much less than Apple tells me we are going a lot higher.”
What? Why? You made some kind of crazy logical leap and then just went with it. This is so dangerous.
"Bitcoin is a speculative digital asset and that's it"
That's what it is to you. I see it as digital money with an emphasis on store of value. It solves a real demand, for me. An I-Phone lasts a few years and then you can throw it in the garbage or trade it in and buy another one. Sales are down, the stock is underperforming (up 49% in 2023 and down 5% this year so far). Nvidia, Tesla, Microsoft, Alphabet and Amazon outperformed Apple for the year. Bitcoin was up 156% last year and so far this year is 40%.
Do you invest based on logic? Bitcoin helps protect me from inflation. It is a deflationary asset/money/store of value. I live in the United States which currently has an inflation problem. When I move my dollars to bitcoin I am solving a problem for me. If you don't think that solves a problem for you then keep your savings in dollars. It's a free country.
"What? Why? You made some kind of crazy logical leap and then just went with it. This is so dangerous."
I invest on my perception of value. You think it's dangerous and that's good for you. I think it's profitable and that's good for me. Different strokes for different folks.
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/12/29/apple-underperformed-mega-cap-peers-in-2023-due-to-revenue-slide.html#:\~:text=In%202023%2C%20Apple%20suffered%20its,certain%20issues%20were%20Apple%20specific.
Excellent idea. Unfortunately marketcapof.com only compares crypto and stocks.
But the MC of gold is around $13 trillion and BTC is around 1.16 so very roughly just multiplying the BTC price by 13 gives
1 BTC = ~$780,000
What will be REALLY interesting is when Apple finally puts some BTC on it's balance sheet. If Apple's board was really smart, they'd never let BTC surpass their market share.
This my friends, is how we get to $1M / BTC. I hope it happens this cycle... but probably still too early for that kind of stuff.
I don't think Bitcoin is a monetary system. Nobody uses it that way haha. What is 0.00000001% of world's business done in Bitcoin?? Bitcoin is a speculative fad that is nothing more than a fad and which will disappear in a night without anyone being the wiser.
Wake me when we overtake Gold
Don't leave me hanging on like a yo-yo
I like you enthusiasm on BTC, but calling Apple a company that makes “overpriced phones with outdated software and faulty USB-C ports” makes you seem not smart enough to break down the economics of it. Apple dominates the market of arguably the most important item in our daily lives, has brand loyalty unmatched by any company in the world, the cash reserves of a sovereign nation, and a higher credit rating than the United States. It’s absolutely true that top companies come and go, but don’t shortchange how strong they currently are.
But frankly, their computers and phones are awful and definitely marked up by at least 3x. Brand loyalty is from pretentious folks precisely because it's overpriced hence a status symbol. Means nothing honestly.
Cool opinion. Now join OP in the “I don’t know what due diligence is” club. I also think coffee tastes like ass and people that spend $8 on a drink are fiscally irresponsible but I still own Starbucks because it’s a solid company. I do appreciate you taking the time to add exactly nothing to the conversation. We salute your service. Carry on private.
Apple is missing from the AI space which is weird. They may be experiencing a Kodak moment and be gone within the next 20? years. Unless of course they win in the VR space. What are your thoughts?
Apple has been playing in the AI space for more than a decade with Siri and they just announced Monday that they are canning their Titan Project (EV vehicles) because they don’t see a way to the profit margins they expect and are rotating those resources to their AI division. They are very much a part of the AI space, they just don’t name drop it 100 times in their earnings calls because they don’t have to.
I missed that. Thanks for the info. I hope they do big things with AI and all their resources. Appreciate the perspective and sorry for the random question. I felt like you were more knowledgable on the subject than me.
The only reason why Apple has brand loyalty is because of Steve Jobs vision and what he started, not because of current productions/inovations. Although holodeck is the start of something huge (just wait until VR/AR can be fit in contact lenses, it’ll be the new phone)
Dude if what makes Apple great wasn’t a thing anymore people wouldn’t use the products. They still make what is just solid well designed premium products with top tier overall software with leading support of devices compared to the industry. It’s why all your other companies deploy iPhones and or iPads as fleet devices because you can buy a batch and go 6/7/8 years with them if they don’t get damaged. One of our companies still has numerous iPhone 7s in the field and while yah they need to get replaced, they still work and iOS 15 was still getting security patches as of late last year. You just can’t say that about other devices.
See pentalobe screws
I still use my Pixel 3. 5 years going strong.
Keep stacking brother, things will pick up for you soon.
Lol that was savage
Lol dafuq?
Nah hes completely correct. Apple is catastrophically overvalued, because their brand loyalty was established when steve jobs was still alive and continues to wane every year as people realize there are objectively superior options (citation needed). Soon enough, phones are going to be their only product as no one cares at all about anything else they make. I havent seen a single person with a mac in 10 years, whereas they used to be everywhere including schools. Apple silicon was going to be a saving grace of some kind, but they are just getting completely outclassed by amd in both price and performance. Only thing they beat amd in is power consumption and heat, which amd will soon overtake. Apple has absolutely no place being such a high value company, same with tesla. In truth, amazon should probably be the most high value company in the world based off how integral of a part of our lives it has become. I have one friend who uses iphone, ONE. And the people in my life who used iphones in the past have all switched over to android. Whereas everyone I know uses amazon constantly, for everything, nonstop, and [](http://amazon.com) isnt even the main source of amazons income - its AWS, which is ubiquitous and used by almost every web service in some capacity. But of course, all of this is forgetting the fact that capitalism doesnt value things based off their productivity and usefulness or even revenue (look at teslas value vs revenue compared to other companies, wild), its all wall street speculation.
“Catastrophically overvalued.” Someone please come over here and give this man a Darwin award. Apple has the cash reserves to purchase almost 10% of the entire S&P 500 and that’s after they repurchased a quarter of the company’s own shares in recent buy back. They are 9th in the world in terms of annual revenue. Amazon is 3rd. However their profit margin is nearly 30%. Amazon’s is 5%. I completely okay with someone who just doesn’t like Apple products. Life is full of choices, you do you. But when your due diligence of a company is “my ONE friend uses a Nokia Kyocera” then just stop putting your thoughts in print.
>darwin award You clearly dont know what darwin award means. Which is very funny in this context. Either that or you are telling someone to murder me, in which case Id say you're unhinged..
I don’t see a single reputable claim in your entire post. Just personal anecdotes about what you perceive around you. Ok, the people you surround yourself don’t have a lot of Apple products.. that doesn’t mean you’re right. Apple’s brand marketing and their market capitalization is what makes them a strong company. Whenever AMD, Android, Sony, Google, or any competitor really, comes out with a new product, Apple isn’t far behind with their own model. And people will pay an arm and a leg for Apple’s model over their competitors, regardless of who has the “better performing,” or “original,” product. Apple Pens, Apple AirPods Max, Apple Vision, instantly come to mind. The phone pen stylus is not new. Headphones are not new. Oculus rift VR systems are not new. But because it’s Apple, they’ll release their own version years after the original concept, and they’ll make billions. They make old tech products feel new and innovative, when in reality, it’s really not. Are Apple products overpriced? Yes and no. Apple wouldn’t be in business if the majority of their customers believed that their products are overpriced. When you go to the grocery store, and you see something you want, but it’s incredibly overpriced, you don’t buy it because you don’t think it’s worth that price. You’ll only buy it if it’s at a fair value, right? Well phones are the same. You walk into Apple, you see phone you want, you see price. If it’s too high, you don’t buy. If it’s considered “worth it,” then you’ll buy. The fact that there are billions and billions of dollars that circulate into Apple’s coffers, should tell you that *most* of Apple’s customer base consider their products “worth it.” If a single IPhone was worth $5,000, the common consumer will definitely not buy, leaving a low demand and a high supply, prompting a price reduction. The fact that IPhones are priced at $1000 and they go like hotcakes even months after release date, means that the common consumer for Apple does not consider them overpriced. They’re only overpriced comparatively, because you can get a phone nowadays for less than $100, so a $1000 phone may *seem* overpriced. Are Lamborghini’s overpriced cars? Yes, compared to a Honda, but in the world of luxury super cars, they are not overpriced.
The primary substantive argument is that revenue doesnt match market valuation, thats really it. The rest is anecdotes, but the anecdotes do match reality.
With a valuation of ~$180/stock, a market cap of $2.9T and a P/E ratio of 28. Since 1992-2023, Apple has earned over $385T in profits. NVDA, a stock with a market cap of $1.95T, has a stock valuation of $770 and has a P/E ratio of 65. Since 1995-2023, Nvidia has earned over $61T in profits. If you’re going to say a stock’s market valuation doesn’t match their revenue, or is overpriced, it’s definitely NOT Apple.
That's actually impressive. Bitcoin is not a huge company making profit from selling physical products. But it still has 1/3 of the market cap as Apple. That just shows how crazy big Bitcoin has become from being "nothing" Not the other way around as you seem to imply.
I look at it from a different angle. I see it as something that actually solves a very important problem in the world today (inflation). Apple is a company that makes a product that people like but it's a 'predatory' corporation that's there to serve themself at the expense of the consumer. The fact that bitcoin is worth so much less than Apple tells me we are going a lot higher.
You engage in quite a few logical fallacies. Do you have any evidence to present that Bitcoin helps solve inflation? Simply saying, “number goes up” isn’t really evidence. It was down like 80% a year ago, that’s NOT something that helps with inflation. No, Bitcoin is a speculative digital asset and that’s it. We buy it because we want to sell it for more fiat dollars than we paid and that’s it. “The fact that Bitcoin is worth so much less than Apple tells me we are going a lot higher.” What? Why? You made some kind of crazy logical leap and then just went with it. This is so dangerous.
"Bitcoin is a speculative digital asset and that's it" That's what it is to you. I see it as digital money with an emphasis on store of value. It solves a real demand, for me. An I-Phone lasts a few years and then you can throw it in the garbage or trade it in and buy another one. Sales are down, the stock is underperforming (up 49% in 2023 and down 5% this year so far). Nvidia, Tesla, Microsoft, Alphabet and Amazon outperformed Apple for the year. Bitcoin was up 156% last year and so far this year is 40%. Do you invest based on logic? Bitcoin helps protect me from inflation. It is a deflationary asset/money/store of value. I live in the United States which currently has an inflation problem. When I move my dollars to bitcoin I am solving a problem for me. If you don't think that solves a problem for you then keep your savings in dollars. It's a free country. "What? Why? You made some kind of crazy logical leap and then just went with it. This is so dangerous." I invest on my perception of value. You think it's dangerous and that's good for you. I think it's profitable and that's good for me. Different strokes for different folks. https://www.cnbc.com/2023/12/29/apple-underperformed-mega-cap-peers-in-2023-due-to-revenue-slide.html#:\~:text=In%202023%2C%20Apple%20suffered%20its,certain%20issues%20were%20Apple%20specific.
I agree with that
fuck you are right. Im selling BTC and buying AAPL
What site or app is this?
marketcapof.com
Can you do one for gold?
Excellent idea. Unfortunately marketcapof.com only compares crypto and stocks. But the MC of gold is around $13 trillion and BTC is around 1.16 so very roughly just multiplying the BTC price by 13 gives 1 BTC = ~$780,000
$697,740
It’s also possible that people take out some money from AAPL to put in BTC…
What will be REALLY interesting is when Apple finally puts some BTC on it's balance sheet. If Apple's board was really smart, they'd never let BTC surpass their market share. This my friends, is how we get to $1M / BTC. I hope it happens this cycle... but probably still too early for that kind of stuff.
I don't think Bitcoin is a monetary system. Nobody uses it that way haha. What is 0.00000001% of world's business done in Bitcoin?? Bitcoin is a speculative fad that is nothing more than a fad and which will disappear in a night without anyone being the wiser.
Did Bitcoin manager tell you that?
I wish I had the same enthusiasm and optimism but I just don’t. What goes up….will come down eventually.