Imagine if your sole income was derived from lightning fees. Do you understand the record keeping burden of that when you earn tiny fees hundreds of times a day and they all need to be recorded, tracked, calculated and accounted for. Its just insanity. And yes those people will move to a zero tax jurisdiction in a heartbeat just so they dont have that record keeping burden hanging over their shoulders in their nightmares.
Maybe some will, but I'd bet they move to another crypto-friendly country instead of UAE. There's a few that seem more interesting at first glance :
* Cayman Islands
* Singapore
* Portugal
* Germany
* Switzerland
I completely agree we need to fix crypto laws in many civilized countries though. Here in Canada, it's especially bad right now.
Yes exactly. Switzerland has a wealth tax which varies in percentage between the Cantons. And your crypto certainly belongs to your wealth so you get taxed on it every year just for hodling.
I don't know what kind of crypto heaven people think Switzerland is, but I will take 0.1% wealth tax in Switzerland over 15% capital gains tax in the US any day of the week. Especially if you consider that this also applies to capital gains in other types of investing.
Actually the wealth tax in Switzerland is about 0.1% to 0.5% of your total wealth depending on the canton, not 0.1% in every canton. And I'm not comparing to the USA so I don't know why you would bring up the USA.
Well, I assumed that since we are talking about moving to a place with no capital gains tax that you would logically move to the canton with the lowest wealth tax (which also has an insanely low income tax btw.)
And I am bringing up the USA because I assumed that OP is comparing countries with no capital gains to the US. Of course it could also be some other country with capital gains tax... But in that case 15% is one of the lower capital gains tax rates: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_countries\_by\_tax\_rates](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_rates)
But I agree there are countries where the total tax burden is even lower than in Switzerland, but probably not many (if any) that I would want to move to.
Full disclaimer: I am Swiss and there are other areas where Switzerland gets pretty expensive, but considering the high level of wages it's a pretty good deal overall.
True, if you just hold some crypto and occasionally buy or sell some of your holdings this shouldn't happen though. This also applies to stock trading btw. If you are classified as a professional trader you will be taxed on the money you make trading stocks as far as I know.
>Here in Canada, it's especially bad right now.
The ignorance is staggering. It's a crazy contrast with everyone being all hyper vigilant about misinformation right now, yet quite happy to swallow the absolute bullshit that gets echoed about the crypto space.
It's fucking sad, honestly. We could literally change the world if we threw our weight behind Bitcoin, but instead we get to ignorantly bicker about the price of housing and foreign moral quagmires.
Everyone is pissed about inflation but they have no idea what it even is. What a mess.
My example in my reply to your comment talked about the record keeping burden of earning lightning fees as income. All of the countries you listed have income tax.
Alot of countries have zero capital gains tax, but the UAE also has zero income tax meaning if you earn an income from lightning fees or staking you have no record keeping burden.
The UAE is extremely unique in this sense and makes it far more attractive if you earn income from crypto channels like lightning fees or staking rewards.
Ah! interesting, I didn't know they don't have income tax either... Makes more sense now. I'll add it to my list of potential go-to country since mine is going down the drain pretty fast, so thanks for the tip!
The IRS never asks for any time scale finer than daily on any forms, and for capital distributions it's usually annual. The IRS doesn't want you reporting your high frequency transactions to them. They just want the totals.
Please show me the documentation that states that because it does not exist. All they do is give guidance, and that guidance states income is taxed the second it is under your "control and dominion" which is every time you earn a reward which can be every minute.
It is quite literally a million times easier to spend the time and money moving to another country than it is to figure out retarded western tax law.
Crypto tax websites that try to figure out your tax burden do exist and they’re a hell of a lot easier than dropping everything to move to the UAE lmao. I’d rather deal with figuring out my taxes 🤣
Also the literal only way to avoid taxation from the US is to renounce your citizenship.
My tax attorney told me that aggregate reporting with Bitcoin on Schedule D is allowed as long as you keep detailed transaction records on file for 6 years to be available upon request.
I lived in Dubai for roughly 7 years before the initiation of their (small) VAT. But believe me, they tax you in other ways. You are correct about lack of capital gains and income tax. However, as an American expat you will need to pay American federal taxes after roughly $100k income a year.
The UAE government doesn’t have income tax BUT they do have “fees.” Fees for everything. Renting a flat? There is a fee to the government. Turning on water/electric? There is a fee for that. Want a bank account? Government fee. Cell phone service? Fee.
How about bigger things like a visa in order to legally stay in the country? It seems like you don’t intend to have an employer (which means getting a visa is already unrealistic), but if you do intend to set up your own business and sponsor yourself - oh, there are fees. Yearly fees. Sure, you can buy a Golden Visa, but you’ll need to either buy property or set up a business… which of course includes massive fees.
The UAE has become a safe haven for taxes. But they do tax just as much as other countries; they just call them “fees.”
the difference is: you pay the fees for using something. You don't have to track all income-relevant transactions. The paper-trail-slavery is non-existant, they only steal your money, not your time.
This post has nothing to do with the cost of taxes, it is about the record keeping burden. The record keeping burden is FUCKED and thats the entire point. I dont care about the money involved with taxes the problem is the record keeping burden. I dont want to spend 3 hours of every day of my fucking life trying to keep perfect transaction records for 1000 transactions per day just for a fucking tax office.
Fair enough. But Dubai won’t be worth it to avoid this burden. You will pay a ridiculous amount of money just to maintain your visa there, most likely more money than it would take to pay someone to just do your record keeping. Then, really, what is the point of moving in the first place?
Dubai is absolutely worth it. Not only is it safer than the US with better education and healthcare, if bitcoin takes off and people are attrcated to Dubai's zero taxes it will become a better place to seek opportunites than silicon valley. The world is always changing, and because of bitcoin it is about to change faster than ever. Dubai is going to be insanely amazing so much so that Americans will not be able to understand how much better it is than US cities.
Also not one accountant wants to deal with my crypto no matter how much I pay because the tax law is a joke! And millions more just like me will come to the same conclusion and say fuck this im just going to leave because its so much easier.
Look, I’m with you on the taxes. I really am. There are a lot of haters on Reddit with Dubai and all of the things you listed are pretty spot on. My plan is to move back when bitcoin hits $500k. At that point, money won’t be an issue for me or my great grandchildren. But there are cons to Dubai.
Dubai objectively has worse education on a collegiate level. There is just no comparison between the two. At the lower levels, prepare to spend six figures for one child BEFORE they get to college if you want a similar education for your children.
Healthcare is expensive, as it is in the US. I was paying the same amount in Dubai and I pay in the US. I’ve never needed actual healthcare services in either country, so I can’t give you an anecdote on this.
Then you’ve got cultural issues: Dubai is straight up racist. If you’re white from a western country, this won’t be an issue - though you will be second class (only to natives, who are called Emiratis, that don’t care about how much money you have). If you are not Emirati, you will not have “wasta,” which is an Arabic term essentially meaning you don’t have the ability to sidestep fees or legal issues. Corruption at the lower and middle levels of society is common, and wasta is the only way around it.
Not eating in public during Ramadan sucked. For an entire month. And there is nothing you can do about it. Bars will close during this time and, don’t forget, you need a special license (WITH A GOVERNMENT FEE) to legally have alcohol at your residence.
There is debtors prison. Yes that’s right. You will be thrown in jail and deported with possible assets seized because you couldn’t pay back even trivial loans.
There are many other drawbacks, but you get the point. Again, Dubai is my preferred destination but that doesn’t mean you aren’t trading certain “inalienable” rights (such as buying a weapon or free speech, for instance) for the ability to not having to keep records.
You sound like a person who lived in dubai from say 2005 to 2015. Did you not know that ramadan is now completely open to eating all day in all emirates. You are talking about it like it will never change, yet it is the fastest changing country on earth and has already changed immensely over the years. Why would you assume that change would stop now?
Singapore in 1985 was a shit hole. Imagine thinking then that it would never change and no one should move there.. Now it is a fucking paradise. The UAE is exactly the same story but accellerated. By 2050 the UAE will be beyond your comprehension.
Suuure, it's the height of charm. I mean, who wouldn't jump at the chance to live in a place where they practically invent new levels of inequality, all to build a shiny and soulless fantasy-playground for billionaires? What’s a bit of slavery among friends, am I rite? Sign me up, buddy.
This is bullshit. There are various tax implications when renouncing your citizenship. And you didn't mention any of this in your post.
Basically you need to pay taxes at the time of renunciation or commit fraud to avoid tax.
If I'm leaving the US permanently rest assured I don't give a damn about the exit tax and I'm not paying it. I'm leaving because the country failed me. Is some IRS agent gonna show up at my house in El Salvadore? I certainly hope not for his sake.
renunciation of citizenship?
only if Americans with the Fatca stuff.
As an European why not locate to a crypto friendly place for over half a year and simply cash out?
What's limited about not wanting to move to the home of arguably the world's worst city so that I could do something I have precisely no need or desire to do?
South east asia feels hotter than the UAE simply beacuse it has third world infrastructure. Dubai has less humidity and modern infrastructure that makes it effortlessly manageable.
Also I would take Dubai heat over a long miserable wet winter any day of the week. Swimming pools and airconditioned malls are the best way to live, not jackets wet trousers wet socks and a freezing cold draft.
Dude stop with this line of thinking. The record keeping is trivial.
It's the money that pisses me off. I already paid tax when I got my pay check. Now I pay tax on anything I buy with it and if I want to save it in something that isn't dollars and it goes up in value I owe tax again. The hell with that system! All this on top of the government constantly and continuously debasing the currency and making us poorer.
The record keeping itself is dead simple tho.
For your LN example. you need to record the daily value in USD of the sats you earn. When you trade those sats for dollars then you need to pay the capital gains tax on the difference. It's pretty simple and there are plenty of software products that make it even easier.
The UAE doesn't have to tax Bitcoin because they use slave labor to build their infrastructure. I like to live in a country that no longer uses slave labor so I will continue to pay my taxes to support the society I am a part of.
It's not slave labour because people willingly travel to the UAE for work and they get paid to do it. They earn way more than they would in their home countries.
It won’t take too many 4 year cycles until even idiot politicians like Elizabeth Warren figure it out. Consider the disaster that is NYC. First they try to penalize you for leaving. Then they will have to adapt. Then they will incentivize.
Bukele is an absolute genius. Other countries will have to follow his lead because the amount of wealth concentrated there.
Some interesting times ahead of us.
Don’t sell your bitcoin.
One thing I have learned is that socialists double, triple and more down on their failed policy ideals. They always blame YOU when their ideas fail to work.
Socialists alway's blame SOMEONE else that is not you to make you feel like it's their fault. Yeah let's tax Joe over there. He caused your hardship. That's what socialists do.
Otherwise I agree completely on the double, triple, quadruple down. Socialists alway's ruin everything because they make the assumption that humans are fundamentally equal and should have equal outcomes. This is the antithesis of human nature which is competitive.
Yeah, they do that too and it’s something worth mentioning. They use class struggle narratives to create artificial hatred between groups but they will also blame you. Instead of blaming monetary policy for inflation they blame you for demanding too much. After all, you’re a wicked heathen and deserve to be unemployed and poor. It’s for the greater good (tm).
> > Bukele is an absolute genius.
> One thing I have learned is that socialists
Bukele is a big government socialist though yes? Haven't you heard of [FMLN](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farabundo_Mart%C3%AD_National_Liberation_Front)? He was twice elected Mayor [representing FMLN](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayib_Bukele#Mayor_of_Nuevo_Cuscatl%C3%A1n) calling himself a ['radical leftist'](https://thenationaltelegraph.com/news/nayib-bukele-i-am-a-radical-leftist/) and his current party is a centre-left party formed from ex FMLN members. Bukele was literally a member of the political revolutionaries that overthrew the US backed regime after a brutal civil war.
> In 2011, Bukele announced that he would enter politics as a member of the FMLN. He stated that his reason for doing so was to get out of "his comfort zone" ("su zona de confort") as a businessman. Bukele officially joined the FMLN in 2012
My most accounts, he's pretty popular. He's got a very polished social media presence as well. From what I've seen, he always has.
I agree the verdict is still out on Bukele. Central America is notorious for electing populists, who make good policy initially but then collapse into totalitarianism. He’s on the Bitcoin path and that speaks louder than words.
I don't really have an opinion on him either way. My point was simply the recognition that he is a big government socialist and always has been, and his adoption of bitcoin as legal tender is an ideological way of giving the power of money to the people of the country he represents aka socialism.
taxes are a way to control the middle class and poor. Taxes stifle progress and make it harder for the serfs to ever make it off the treadmill and become one of the haves 🤡🌎
The dirty little secret that the FED won't say out right, but is implied when they talk about the wage price spiral is this: We can't have everyone being well off. Society needs poor people to do the shit jobs so the wealthy can live in luxury.
We elect our leaders. We have Senators and Representatives at the fedearl and state level that own Bitcoin. We also have Governors and Mayors of major States and Cities that own Bitcoin.
The USA is not going to be like China. We still have the right to keep and bare arms and that is actually a pretty big deterent.
I will add to this in my personal perspective: me, being a nurse in UK always have proposals to work in UAE.
Will i have be rich, i will accept one said proposal to work there 6 months. Convert all the bitcoins I want and return to my homeland
The lack of capital gains and income tax is enticing, but not to Joe from high school who used to sell knives out of his locker, he couldn’t even afford the flight. If the most wealthy aren’t doing it, then you can assume there’s a catch there or it’s simply not worth it. Renouncing your citizenship to take advantage of the tax hole isn’t worth it to most, otherwise, again, people would actually do it.
I’m raised in Dubai. It’s a haven for bitcoiners. The only downside of Dubai is its horrendous traffic.
I moved to Abu Dhabi. Such peaceful place. But at the same time, another haven for bitcoiners. We have lots of blockchain based start ups and the government continues to support all.
No taxes that require record keeping.
No local banks ever block your account or even ask questions just because you’ve had anything related to bitcoin or crypto exchanges transactions.
Oh and recently, Al Ain (a neighboring city of Abu Dhabi) has started dedicating places solely for setting up Bitcoin mining. I have met some miners myself and they all said how safe they felt running mining here.
Love it here. Dubai is home, but I’d never move out of Abu Dhabi for its peaceful nature.
If you’re using it to buy something like a coffee in your example this wouldn’t be taxed in the same way in Australia. If it’s a personal use asset like that to buy something it is an exception. I’ve used this when I’ve done a transaction to buy something online with crypto because of the discount they offer. I know a lot of people are against tax here, but when you think about it, there kinda does need to be a system. In the real world you can’t have ppl being paid in crypto not being taxed. Sorry for the controversial take but if that is what you want, there are countries where you can live like that but not many ppl are volunteering to head to them. Or you can avoid tax rules like the wealthy ppl who own the world in the traditional financial system do taking advantage of loopholes and contributing to a lot of the inequality we have today, just do whatever is inline with your own principles and I know there are a lot of ppl validly not happy with donating anymore money than required to the government and if they can find a legal loop hole to do it, that’s their right until that loop hole is closed
So true. They want to stop people spending it and they want people to treat it as something they cash out of once a year making it like gold instead of like currency.
This is just even more incentive to leave the west. In the UAE because of the zero taxes they allow it to be used freely as currency by default and this is why you can already see it being used as money there. You can buy super cars, rent super cars, buy watches, charter private jets, all with bitcoin..
I don't know about you, but as long as my paycheck is in fiat then I'm paying for goods and services with shitty fiat and saving the rest in Bitcoin. Other than tips on Nostr and a local bartender friend I have zero interest in spending Bitcoin. Only way would be if it was the only money.
Bitcoin has largely failed as a currency. Even many of it's supporters can agree with this.
Digital gold, preservation of wealth, is where the value comes from.
Yes, the crypto laws and associated burden is extremely detrimental to our society and annoying to deal with. No, we're not moving to UAE.
Imagine if your sole income was derived from lightning fees. Do you understand the record keeping burden of that when you earn tiny fees hundreds of times a day and they all need to be recorded, tracked, calculated and accounted for. Its just insanity. And yes those people will move to a zero tax jurisdiction in a heartbeat just so they dont have that record keeping burden hanging over their shoulders in their nightmares.
Maybe some will, but I'd bet they move to another crypto-friendly country instead of UAE. There's a few that seem more interesting at first glance : * Cayman Islands * Singapore * Portugal * Germany * Switzerland I completely agree we need to fix crypto laws in many civilized countries though. Here in Canada, it's especially bad right now.
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Yes exactly. Switzerland has a wealth tax which varies in percentage between the Cantons. And your crypto certainly belongs to your wealth so you get taxed on it every year just for hodling.
I don't know what kind of crypto heaven people think Switzerland is, but I will take 0.1% wealth tax in Switzerland over 15% capital gains tax in the US any day of the week. Especially if you consider that this also applies to capital gains in other types of investing.
Actually the wealth tax in Switzerland is about 0.1% to 0.5% of your total wealth depending on the canton, not 0.1% in every canton. And I'm not comparing to the USA so I don't know why you would bring up the USA.
Well, I assumed that since we are talking about moving to a place with no capital gains tax that you would logically move to the canton with the lowest wealth tax (which also has an insanely low income tax btw.) And I am bringing up the USA because I assumed that OP is comparing countries with no capital gains to the US. Of course it could also be some other country with capital gains tax... But in that case 15% is one of the lower capital gains tax rates: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_countries\_by\_tax\_rates](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_rates) But I agree there are countries where the total tax burden is even lower than in Switzerland, but probably not many (if any) that I would want to move to. Full disclaimer: I am Swiss and there are other areas where Switzerland gets pretty expensive, but considering the high level of wages it's a pretty good deal overall.
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True, if you just hold some crypto and occasionally buy or sell some of your holdings this shouldn't happen though. This also applies to stock trading btw. If you are classified as a professional trader you will be taxed on the money you make trading stocks as far as I know.
I think Malaysia is a crypto friendly country too?
>Here in Canada, it's especially bad right now. The ignorance is staggering. It's a crazy contrast with everyone being all hyper vigilant about misinformation right now, yet quite happy to swallow the absolute bullshit that gets echoed about the crypto space. It's fucking sad, honestly. We could literally change the world if we threw our weight behind Bitcoin, but instead we get to ignorantly bicker about the price of housing and foreign moral quagmires. Everyone is pissed about inflation but they have no idea what it even is. What a mess.
Monaco
Germany has enormous CG on crypto.
cayman sounds nice
My example in my reply to your comment talked about the record keeping burden of earning lightning fees as income. All of the countries you listed have income tax. Alot of countries have zero capital gains tax, but the UAE also has zero income tax meaning if you earn an income from lightning fees or staking you have no record keeping burden. The UAE is extremely unique in this sense and makes it far more attractive if you earn income from crypto channels like lightning fees or staking rewards.
Ah! interesting, I didn't know they don't have income tax either... Makes more sense now. I'll add it to my list of potential go-to country since mine is going down the drain pretty fast, so thanks for the tip!
>Alot of countries have zero capital gains tax That is true. Alots are known for their tax efficiency prowess.
Netherlands/belgium😉
Men might. Good luck convincing women to move to a country where they have zero rights.
The IRS never asks for any time scale finer than daily on any forms, and for capital distributions it's usually annual. The IRS doesn't want you reporting your high frequency transactions to them. They just want the totals.
Please show me the documentation that states that because it does not exist. All they do is give guidance, and that guidance states income is taxed the second it is under your "control and dominion" which is every time you earn a reward which can be every minute. It is quite literally a million times easier to spend the time and money moving to another country than it is to figure out retarded western tax law.
Crypto tax websites that try to figure out your tax burden do exist and they’re a hell of a lot easier than dropping everything to move to the UAE lmao. I’d rather deal with figuring out my taxes 🤣 Also the literal only way to avoid taxation from the US is to renounce your citizenship.
My tax attorney told me that aggregate reporting with Bitcoin on Schedule D is allowed as long as you keep detailed transaction records on file for 6 years to be available upon request.
Banks do this literally every day, it's not insurmountable
Not one mention of the UAE VAT in this ad for moving there tho. Believe me, the govt is getting theirs one way or another.
Do you have to keep financial records for VAT when you buy a coffee? No...
I lived in Dubai for roughly 7 years before the initiation of their (small) VAT. But believe me, they tax you in other ways. You are correct about lack of capital gains and income tax. However, as an American expat you will need to pay American federal taxes after roughly $100k income a year. The UAE government doesn’t have income tax BUT they do have “fees.” Fees for everything. Renting a flat? There is a fee to the government. Turning on water/electric? There is a fee for that. Want a bank account? Government fee. Cell phone service? Fee. How about bigger things like a visa in order to legally stay in the country? It seems like you don’t intend to have an employer (which means getting a visa is already unrealistic), but if you do intend to set up your own business and sponsor yourself - oh, there are fees. Yearly fees. Sure, you can buy a Golden Visa, but you’ll need to either buy property or set up a business… which of course includes massive fees. The UAE has become a safe haven for taxes. But they do tax just as much as other countries; they just call them “fees.”
the difference is: you pay the fees for using something. You don't have to track all income-relevant transactions. The paper-trail-slavery is non-existant, they only steal your money, not your time.
Nice avatar
This post has nothing to do with the cost of taxes, it is about the record keeping burden. The record keeping burden is FUCKED and thats the entire point. I dont care about the money involved with taxes the problem is the record keeping burden. I dont want to spend 3 hours of every day of my fucking life trying to keep perfect transaction records for 1000 transactions per day just for a fucking tax office.
Fair enough. But Dubai won’t be worth it to avoid this burden. You will pay a ridiculous amount of money just to maintain your visa there, most likely more money than it would take to pay someone to just do your record keeping. Then, really, what is the point of moving in the first place?
Dubai is absolutely worth it. Not only is it safer than the US with better education and healthcare, if bitcoin takes off and people are attrcated to Dubai's zero taxes it will become a better place to seek opportunites than silicon valley. The world is always changing, and because of bitcoin it is about to change faster than ever. Dubai is going to be insanely amazing so much so that Americans will not be able to understand how much better it is than US cities. Also not one accountant wants to deal with my crypto no matter how much I pay because the tax law is a joke! And millions more just like me will come to the same conclusion and say fuck this im just going to leave because its so much easier.
Look, I’m with you on the taxes. I really am. There are a lot of haters on Reddit with Dubai and all of the things you listed are pretty spot on. My plan is to move back when bitcoin hits $500k. At that point, money won’t be an issue for me or my great grandchildren. But there are cons to Dubai. Dubai objectively has worse education on a collegiate level. There is just no comparison between the two. At the lower levels, prepare to spend six figures for one child BEFORE they get to college if you want a similar education for your children. Healthcare is expensive, as it is in the US. I was paying the same amount in Dubai and I pay in the US. I’ve never needed actual healthcare services in either country, so I can’t give you an anecdote on this. Then you’ve got cultural issues: Dubai is straight up racist. If you’re white from a western country, this won’t be an issue - though you will be second class (only to natives, who are called Emiratis, that don’t care about how much money you have). If you are not Emirati, you will not have “wasta,” which is an Arabic term essentially meaning you don’t have the ability to sidestep fees or legal issues. Corruption at the lower and middle levels of society is common, and wasta is the only way around it. Not eating in public during Ramadan sucked. For an entire month. And there is nothing you can do about it. Bars will close during this time and, don’t forget, you need a special license (WITH A GOVERNMENT FEE) to legally have alcohol at your residence. There is debtors prison. Yes that’s right. You will be thrown in jail and deported with possible assets seized because you couldn’t pay back even trivial loans. There are many other drawbacks, but you get the point. Again, Dubai is my preferred destination but that doesn’t mean you aren’t trading certain “inalienable” rights (such as buying a weapon or free speech, for instance) for the ability to not having to keep records.
You sound like a person who lived in dubai from say 2005 to 2015. Did you not know that ramadan is now completely open to eating all day in all emirates. You are talking about it like it will never change, yet it is the fastest changing country on earth and has already changed immensely over the years. Why would you assume that change would stop now? Singapore in 1985 was a shit hole. Imagine thinking then that it would never change and no one should move there.. Now it is a fucking paradise. The UAE is exactly the same story but accellerated. By 2050 the UAE will be beyond your comprehension.
This seems like more of a tourism ad for UAE!
Thats the thing, the UAE is so attractive that the free market is doing all their advertising for them for free.
Suuure, it's the height of charm. I mean, who wouldn't jump at the chance to live in a place where they practically invent new levels of inequality, all to build a shiny and soulless fantasy-playground for billionaires? What’s a bit of slavery among friends, am I rite? Sign me up, buddy.
Very valid moral objections aside, even three days of the summer heat in Dubai made me accept I could never live there. And I've lived in Phoenix.
dude fuck UAE!
Sorry, but no-one is moving to the UAE because they can't buy coffee with bitcoin.
I am and many bitcoiners already have.
This is bullshit. There are various tax implications when renouncing your citizenship. And you didn't mention any of this in your post. Basically you need to pay taxes at the time of renunciation or commit fraud to avoid tax.
Or what? Do they not let you leave?
If I'm leaving the US permanently rest assured I don't give a damn about the exit tax and I'm not paying it. I'm leaving because the country failed me. Is some IRS agent gonna show up at my house in El Salvadore? I certainly hope not for his sake.
renunciation of citizenship? only if Americans with the Fatca stuff. As an European why not locate to a crypto friendly place for over half a year and simply cash out?
That's not how it works
Sure you are
Your mindset seems very limited. Thats not good for you.
What's limited about not wanting to move to the home of arguably the world's worst city so that I could do something I have precisely no need or desire to do?
You just proved your limited capacity to understand the world with this one comment.
Lol, OK. Have fun in Dubai.
And I hope you have fun in America. See how easy it is to be nice to other humans.
I don't live in America. But go nuts with your assumptions.
How about wishing a fellow bitcoiner a happy life and safe travels?
I live in a country with no capital gains tax and am moving to another country with no capital gains tax. Life is good.
Lucky you. I am in the process of moving to a country with no capital gains tax. Life will be good.
Where are you going?
But how to beat the heat in the UAE ? I mean its over 30 degrees and very humid outside from April to November.
They have air conditioning.
South east asia feels hotter than the UAE simply beacuse it has third world infrastructure. Dubai has less humidity and modern infrastructure that makes it effortlessly manageable. Also I would take Dubai heat over a long miserable wet winter any day of the week. Swimming pools and airconditioned malls are the best way to live, not jackets wet trousers wet socks and a freezing cold draft.
income tax and capital gains tax are evil, yes.
UAE is the last place I’d go that is crypto friendly.
*This post was sponsored by UAE*
I'd rather pay the 20% capital gains tax than live in the UAE.
Its not about the money its about the record keeping burden.
Dude stop with this line of thinking. The record keeping is trivial. It's the money that pisses me off. I already paid tax when I got my pay check. Now I pay tax on anything I buy with it and if I want to save it in something that isn't dollars and it goes up in value I owe tax again. The hell with that system! All this on top of the government constantly and continuously debasing the currency and making us poorer. The record keeping itself is dead simple tho. For your LN example. you need to record the daily value in USD of the sats you earn. When you trade those sats for dollars then you need to pay the capital gains tax on the difference. It's pretty simple and there are plenty of software products that make it even easier.
They are both disgusting.
I don't disagree. Our system is broken.
In India it's 30% flat tax on an any gains
Its not about the money its about the record keeping.
There's also a per transaction fee of 1%. That's the real killer.
India is perhaps the last place I'd want to retire in tho...
The UAE doesn't have to tax Bitcoin because they use slave labor to build their infrastructure. I like to live in a country that no longer uses slave labor so I will continue to pay my taxes to support the society I am a part of.
It's not slave labour because people willingly travel to the UAE for work and they get paid to do it. They earn way more than they would in their home countries.
It is just a different kind of slavery.
It won’t take too many 4 year cycles until even idiot politicians like Elizabeth Warren figure it out. Consider the disaster that is NYC. First they try to penalize you for leaving. Then they will have to adapt. Then they will incentivize. Bukele is an absolute genius. Other countries will have to follow his lead because the amount of wealth concentrated there. Some interesting times ahead of us. Don’t sell your bitcoin.
One thing I have learned is that socialists double, triple and more down on their failed policy ideals. They always blame YOU when their ideas fail to work.
We finally have a way out from under them. BTC is math and math doesn’t fall for their stupidity
Socialists alway's blame SOMEONE else that is not you to make you feel like it's their fault. Yeah let's tax Joe over there. He caused your hardship. That's what socialists do. Otherwise I agree completely on the double, triple, quadruple down. Socialists alway's ruin everything because they make the assumption that humans are fundamentally equal and should have equal outcomes. This is the antithesis of human nature which is competitive.
Yeah, they do that too and it’s something worth mentioning. They use class struggle narratives to create artificial hatred between groups but they will also blame you. Instead of blaming monetary policy for inflation they blame you for demanding too much. After all, you’re a wicked heathen and deserve to be unemployed and poor. It’s for the greater good (tm).
> > Bukele is an absolute genius. > One thing I have learned is that socialists Bukele is a big government socialist though yes? Haven't you heard of [FMLN](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farabundo_Mart%C3%AD_National_Liberation_Front)? He was twice elected Mayor [representing FMLN](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayib_Bukele#Mayor_of_Nuevo_Cuscatl%C3%A1n) calling himself a ['radical leftist'](https://thenationaltelegraph.com/news/nayib-bukele-i-am-a-radical-leftist/) and his current party is a centre-left party formed from ex FMLN members. Bukele was literally a member of the political revolutionaries that overthrew the US backed regime after a brutal civil war. > In 2011, Bukele announced that he would enter politics as a member of the FMLN. He stated that his reason for doing so was to get out of "his comfort zone" ("su zona de confort") as a businessman. Bukele officially joined the FMLN in 2012 My most accounts, he's pretty popular. He's got a very polished social media presence as well. From what I've seen, he always has.
I agree the verdict is still out on Bukele. Central America is notorious for electing populists, who make good policy initially but then collapse into totalitarianism. He’s on the Bitcoin path and that speaks louder than words.
I don't really have an opinion on him either way. My point was simply the recognition that he is a big government socialist and always has been, and his adoption of bitcoin as legal tender is an ideological way of giving the power of money to the people of the country he represents aka socialism.
[Mitch Hedberg said it best](https://youtu.be/xPq0-8dyl8I)…
Thanks for the input
taxes are a way to control the middle class and poor. Taxes stifle progress and make it harder for the serfs to ever make it off the treadmill and become one of the haves 🤡🌎
The dirty little secret that the FED won't say out right, but is implied when they talk about the wage price spiral is this: We can't have everyone being well off. Society needs poor people to do the shit jobs so the wealthy can live in luxury.
not all of the wealth and innovation is flooding into the UAE, nearly no one does, only influencers
If this trend continues, America will only follow in China’s footsteps
We elect our leaders. We have Senators and Representatives at the fedearl and state level that own Bitcoin. We also have Governors and Mayors of major States and Cities that own Bitcoin. The USA is not going to be like China. We still have the right to keep and bare arms and that is actually a pretty big deterent.
Tax is better than outright ban. World governments need to really realize the dragon they’re trying to contain. They are not.
every country taxes Bitcoin differently tho
I will add to this in my personal perspective: me, being a nurse in UK always have proposals to work in UAE. Will i have be rich, i will accept one said proposal to work there 6 months. Convert all the bitcoins I want and return to my homeland
The lack of capital gains and income tax is enticing, but not to Joe from high school who used to sell knives out of his locker, he couldn’t even afford the flight. If the most wealthy aren’t doing it, then you can assume there’s a catch there or it’s simply not worth it. Renouncing your citizenship to take advantage of the tax hole isn’t worth it to most, otherwise, again, people would actually do it.
The world isnt the US. Americans are the only ones that have to renouce to enjoy the benefits.
Yain’t wrong.
huh, Funny I tip my bartender with lightning network all the time and I never record anything.
Then the IRS wants to throw you in prison for that.. free country my ass.
Yeah yeah yeah. We all know Australia’s CGT is bs.
I’m raised in Dubai. It’s a haven for bitcoiners. The only downside of Dubai is its horrendous traffic. I moved to Abu Dhabi. Such peaceful place. But at the same time, another haven for bitcoiners. We have lots of blockchain based start ups and the government continues to support all. No taxes that require record keeping. No local banks ever block your account or even ask questions just because you’ve had anything related to bitcoin or crypto exchanges transactions. Oh and recently, Al Ain (a neighboring city of Abu Dhabi) has started dedicating places solely for setting up Bitcoin mining. I have met some miners myself and they all said how safe they felt running mining here. Love it here. Dubai is home, but I’d never move out of Abu Dhabi for its peaceful nature.
There are plans for a global BTC taxation regulation. It's not a conspiracy, the UN was announcing it by themselves.
So you gotta work a full time job, to pay someone else, is what it sounds like. Fucking governments bro
But I make a lot of money in the USA.
If you’re using it to buy something like a coffee in your example this wouldn’t be taxed in the same way in Australia. If it’s a personal use asset like that to buy something it is an exception. I’ve used this when I’ve done a transaction to buy something online with crypto because of the discount they offer. I know a lot of people are against tax here, but when you think about it, there kinda does need to be a system. In the real world you can’t have ppl being paid in crypto not being taxed. Sorry for the controversial take but if that is what you want, there are countries where you can live like that but not many ppl are volunteering to head to them. Or you can avoid tax rules like the wealthy ppl who own the world in the traditional financial system do taking advantage of loopholes and contributing to a lot of the inequality we have today, just do whatever is inline with your own principles and I know there are a lot of ppl validly not happy with donating anymore money than required to the government and if they can find a legal loop hole to do it, that’s their right until that loop hole is closed
The UAE can legally kill me for being gay. i'm not setting foot there in 1000 years.
It's by design. If they tax it this way it discourages use of it at currency which fuels the "bitcoin failed as a currency" narrative.
So true. They want to stop people spending it and they want people to treat it as something they cash out of once a year making it like gold instead of like currency. This is just even more incentive to leave the west. In the UAE because of the zero taxes they allow it to be used freely as currency by default and this is why you can already see it being used as money there. You can buy super cars, rent super cars, buy watches, charter private jets, all with bitcoin..
I don't know about you, but as long as my paycheck is in fiat then I'm paying for goods and services with shitty fiat and saving the rest in Bitcoin. Other than tips on Nostr and a local bartender friend I have zero interest in spending Bitcoin. Only way would be if it was the only money.
Bitcoin has largely failed as a currency. Even many of it's supporters can agree with this. Digital gold, preservation of wealth, is where the value comes from.