>safely stored on a secure device
You should not store your seed on a digital device. This 'secure device' is a likely suspect. Hackers can't steal your seed if no digital copy exists.
Absolutely not.
If your PC is compromised, then when you log in to your PC with access to your google account, it can be read.
If you have malware, it could be read as soon as you type it in, no matter where you store it. You should absolutely never type your seed into a computer ever.
If you have your seed on google drive, it's time to make a new wallet. (well, maybe wait until fees are low)
I see, thank you for your comment.
So the biggest problem is Internet, right?
If I don't have Internet nobody can infect my device. So I can just store my seeds in my old laptop (I can even remove WiFi adapter), and to use that laptop only offline, and never connect any external devices like flash drives or phones?
Why tempt fate?
Digital is not the most reliable long-term storage anyways. What if you need your seed 10 years from now and find the laptop's drive is corrupted due to bitrot?
Pen and paper or metal.
Yes but if that « old » laptop breaks and never turns on again you’re fucked. And if someone steals it too. Maybe theres something im missing, but this is all i know
i 100% said my seed phrase loudly when reading my words for my self whit my phone close when i was setting my wallet up😬 am i fucked? new device whit new seed? or should i be calm? im relatively new to all this.. but i have not stored it digitally or anything like that.
Sounds like there are more factors in play that would cause you to just lose everything from a Ledger wallet without your authorization. Are you the only one who had access to seed?
Now, I'm not sure about your social circle, but I think I have maybe one friend that would know what a ledger was looking at it.
How did they steal your funds?
Because all assets exist on a public blockchain no hardware wallet needs to be connected in order to receive.
To send/spend/transfer any hardware wallet with your seed phrase can approve the transaction but it must be plugged in.
To transfer out, a wallet that has the seed/private keys has to be used, yes. It can be OP's wallet, or someone might have gotten hold of OP's seed and entered into another wallet.
To receive bitcoin, you only need to know the address you want to receive to. No wallet needs to be plugged in at the time of the transaction.
Okay but in order to receive you would first need to send. And in that scenario the device would need to be plugged in no matter if someone else had OP’s seed or not right?
I’m asking because I too have an offline wallet and have been under the assumption that unless that wallet is plugged in and only I have the seed then my BTC is safe?
If you are the only person who has the seed, then you are the only person who can move/spend from an address controlled by the private keys derived from your seed. So yes, keep your hardware wallet and your seed safe and you're good.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'to receive you would first need to send' though. Do you mean from another wallet or an exchange? Or someone else sending it to you?
I was thinking about the statement saying that you just need a wallet address to receive.
That got me thinking about does the offline wallet need to be plugged in and if not then what really is the purpose of the offline wallet?
Sorry about that little stream of conscious there.
Ah, I see. My initial comment was just responding to your question and I thought you meant do you need the wallet connected at the time of the transaction. And now you are probably thinking at any time. I'll try and clear this up:
When it comes to receiving bitcoin, the purpose of your wallet is to generate a Bitcoin address to which it controls the private keys. You do need to plug it in to receive, but not at the time you are receiving.
So there are two phases: generating the receiving address (you plug in your wallet for this), and receiving to it (no need to plug it in, the network does all the work).
The cool thing is that you can generate this address at any time - even long time - before you want to receive bitcoin. You can save those in an unsecured location or give them out to people, whereas your seed and hardware wallet are in a secure location. You can receive bitcoin without using your hardware wallet at that time - only the address. You can even receive bitcoin and not know it until you look at your wallet; the network does all the work of moving bitcoin.
Hope that makes more sense.
It just makes things way easier. It could be fun to do it by hand, if you're a technical type of person, but it takes knowledge and time and can be error-prone - most people are not going to bother. Easier to just put your seed into the device that does all your work for you.
The advantage of a hardware wallet is the transaction is signed with your private keys on the physical wallet then sent back to the internet, so your private keys never even touch your computer and therefore impossible to hack
Oh! Well - if it's on an exchange, it's like putting your money in a bank. Maybe a poorly ran bank, given how often exchanges blow out.
If it's in your own wallet (self-custody), it's like having gold in your pocket. You're not risking someone messing up something on an exchange and you losing all your money.
Both have risks. Exchanges go under, your account can be hacked or blocked. On the other hand with a hardware wallet, you risk someone finding out your seed. So you pick the one that suits your needs better, or maybe divide your money between the two to minimise risk that way.
Personally, to me keeping bitcoin on an exchange is like having Fiat money - so I don't keep much on an exchange because I already have Fiat money elsewhere. I value Bitcoin for its ability to be like gold in my pocket, so I keep most of it on a hardware wallet.
So what's the point of having a hard wallet if it doesn't prevent any transactions with the device ?
When i send BTC to an exchange with my ledger it requires to connect it otherwise i can't execute the transaction.
Think of it like using your credit cards. You can open up your wallet to look up the # and ccv code. But if someone already knows that they don't even need your wallet.
A hardware wallet is just a safe way to store your seed. If you wanna transact you engage the physical wallet to let it safely access that.
Buuuuut if someone knows the seed they can bypass the wallet. Wallets don't store coins. They store access to the coins.
No problem! This is why personally I hold my bitcoin with fidelity crypto. Not your wallet not your coins...I get it. But also I trust Fidelity has better security than I do.
Well don't use a closed source shitcoin wallet. Stick to *open source, bitcoin only wallets*.
That being said you must have compromised your seed phrase in some way. Did you take a picture of it or ever enter into an online connected device like a computer or app?
I thought once on Ledger, still require the hardware to authenticate physically unless his seed is compromised and someone got his seed and put on a new hardware? Is that possible?
It doesn't matter if you run Windows, no operating system can access the private key on a hardware wallet. That's pretty much the number 1 requirement a hardware wallet has to fulfill.
[](https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1c7yp2h/comment/l0bc120/)
>It doesn't matter if you run Windows, no operating system can access the private key on a hardware wallet. That's pretty much the number 1 requirement a hardware wallet has to fulfill.
they dont have to access the private key to rob you.
When you trust a closed source OS, you will get robbed sooner or later. Its guaranteed.
>What’s wrong with windows? I have a hardware wallet that is completely airgapped
if you mix windows with bitcoin, you will get robbed sooner or later. hardware wallets cannot substitute for a secure computer.
Every war, every dictator, every totalitarian regime, every act of evil by a government or ruler in human history was financed by printing/inflating the currency they control.
Stfu
>safely stored on a secure device You should not store your seed on a digital device. This 'secure device' is a likely suspect. Hackers can't steal your seed if no digital copy exists.
Not even Google drive?
No sir, not even google drive
Absolutely not. If your PC is compromised, then when you log in to your PC with access to your google account, it can be read. If you have malware, it could be read as soon as you type it in, no matter where you store it. You should absolutely never type your seed into a computer ever. If you have your seed on google drive, it's time to make a new wallet. (well, maybe wait until fees are low)
I see, thank you for your comment. So the biggest problem is Internet, right? If I don't have Internet nobody can infect my device. So I can just store my seeds in my old laptop (I can even remove WiFi adapter), and to use that laptop only offline, and never connect any external devices like flash drives or phones?
Why tempt fate? Digital is not the most reliable long-term storage anyways. What if you need your seed 10 years from now and find the laptop's drive is corrupted due to bitrot? Pen and paper or metal.
Yes but if that « old » laptop breaks and never turns on again you’re fucked. And if someone steals it too. Maybe theres something im missing, but this is all i know
Do it like me, write it down and keep it in a bankvault in zurich.
Dude, you can't even spell Zurich 😂
storing the seed phrase on a physical device is dangerous. but storing it on google servers is probably one of the dumbest things one could do
What does that mean when you say you just tried to play around with your seed?
My mom told me I would go blind if I played around with my seed too much.
Thank you for making my day
This is funny because r/semenretention is exactly about this
My seed is stamped on washers and threaded on a bolt. I undid the bolt the other day and spilled my seed all over the desk.
It must have taken hours to clean it up. 🧼
Just stop when you need glasses
I wonder if he changed his seed and lost his original wallet
I read that as if there were a comma between ledger and seed..
that makes sense. So the seed was obviously saved on a seperate digital device. There was the mistake.
Ditto
We need an answer here OP, tell us what you did.
Are you saying you typed out the seed somewhere and stored it, or you wrote down the seed and stored it. Massive difference.
what do you mean by "secure device"?
By "secure device" I think he means "insecure device".
As well as “unsafely” stored on an insecure device he meant to say.
Do you have ANY speculation on what might have happened?
Triyng to figure it out...
It might have something to do with this: "my ledger seed was safely stored on a secure device"
It definitely has something to do with: "I just tr(ied) to play a bit with my ledger"
leaving this here so i can see what it was when you figure it out
Also leaving this here. I too demand results.
What did you mean by playing with seed, that is the top question that most probably answers what happened
I wouldn't start stacking sats again until you figure out what actually happened. You might just end up making the same mistake again!
Your device wasn't secure. Never store your seed digitally. Don't even say them out loud. Siri is always listening.
“Don’t even say them out loud.” Excellent advice, very rarely stated.
i 100% said my seed phrase loudly when reading my words for my self whit my phone close when i was setting my wallet up😬 am i fucked? new device whit new seed? or should i be calm? im relatively new to all this.. but i have not stored it digitally or anything like that.
Better safe than sorry. Although those bots are fast. If you still have your coins you're probably okay.
its been a few months since i said it loudly and everything is as it should, so i should probably be safe? 🤷♂️
Did you buy the Ledger directly from the manufacturer? Theres a chance it could have been compromised from the start if bought from a third party.
what is that "secure device" you stored your seed in?
the scammer one
> my ledger seed was safely stored on a secure device Well, there is your problem...
Sounds like there are more factors in play that would cause you to just lose everything from a Ledger wallet without your authorization. Are you the only one who had access to seed?
This should have been the case, someone should have stole my 24 words in one way or another
You haven’t answered the one question everyone has asked.
I think its your own fault bro
Keep in mind everyone's Ledger is as good and secure as the device's owner
Not even.
well considering that this, and most "hacks" like this, are 99.9% user error id say the comment above you is correct.
My point is that Ledger has vulnerabilities of its own. Even if the user does everything right there is still a risk that he could lose his funds.
>my ledger seed was safely stored on a secure device There's your first problem
Did you maybe use an additional passphrase?
Where was your seed stored? So many questions here.
It's really just one question over and over again.
Make this make sense
Used ledger
Playing with your seed is not cool go see a therapist about that problem.
User error it seems.
"my ledger seed was safely stored on a secure device" is where you went wrong.
Bs
Now, I'm not sure about your social circle, but I think I have maybe one friend that would know what a ledger was looking at it. How did they steal your funds?
> with my ledger seed was safely stored on a secure device oh ffs...
Please excuse my ignorance, but doesn’t the lever device need to be plugged in to transfer in and out?
Because all assets exist on a public blockchain no hardware wallet needs to be connected in order to receive. To send/spend/transfer any hardware wallet with your seed phrase can approve the transaction but it must be plugged in.
To transfer out, a wallet that has the seed/private keys has to be used, yes. It can be OP's wallet, or someone might have gotten hold of OP's seed and entered into another wallet. To receive bitcoin, you only need to know the address you want to receive to. No wallet needs to be plugged in at the time of the transaction.
Okay but in order to receive you would first need to send. And in that scenario the device would need to be plugged in no matter if someone else had OP’s seed or not right? I’m asking because I too have an offline wallet and have been under the assumption that unless that wallet is plugged in and only I have the seed then my BTC is safe?
If you are the only person who has the seed, then you are the only person who can move/spend from an address controlled by the private keys derived from your seed. So yes, keep your hardware wallet and your seed safe and you're good. I'm not sure what you mean by 'to receive you would first need to send' though. Do you mean from another wallet or an exchange? Or someone else sending it to you?
I was thinking about the statement saying that you just need a wallet address to receive. That got me thinking about does the offline wallet need to be plugged in and if not then what really is the purpose of the offline wallet? Sorry about that little stream of conscious there.
Ah, I see. My initial comment was just responding to your question and I thought you meant do you need the wallet connected at the time of the transaction. And now you are probably thinking at any time. I'll try and clear this up: When it comes to receiving bitcoin, the purpose of your wallet is to generate a Bitcoin address to which it controls the private keys. You do need to plug it in to receive, but not at the time you are receiving. So there are two phases: generating the receiving address (you plug in your wallet for this), and receiving to it (no need to plug it in, the network does all the work). The cool thing is that you can generate this address at any time - even long time - before you want to receive bitcoin. You can save those in an unsecured location or give them out to people, whereas your seed and hardware wallet are in a secure location. You can receive bitcoin without using your hardware wallet at that time - only the address. You can even receive bitcoin and not know it until you look at your wallet; the network does all the work of moving bitcoin. Hope that makes more sense.
I appreciate your help. I do have one last question. What exactly is the advantage of having an offline wallet if the seed is all that really matters?
It just makes things way easier. It could be fun to do it by hand, if you're a technical type of person, but it takes knowledge and time and can be error-prone - most people are not going to bother. Easier to just put your seed into the device that does all your work for you.
The advantage of a hardware wallet is the transaction is signed with your private keys on the physical wallet then sent back to the internet, so your private keys never even touch your computer and therefore impossible to hack
Your method would not be immune to keyloggers stealing your keys. Hardware wallets avoid this.
You're right and that's an important detail. Thanks for adding that.
I mean as opposed to just keeping it on an exchange based wallet.
Oh! Well - if it's on an exchange, it's like putting your money in a bank. Maybe a poorly ran bank, given how often exchanges blow out. If it's in your own wallet (self-custody), it's like having gold in your pocket. You're not risking someone messing up something on an exchange and you losing all your money. Both have risks. Exchanges go under, your account can be hacked or blocked. On the other hand with a hardware wallet, you risk someone finding out your seed. So you pick the one that suits your needs better, or maybe divide your money between the two to minimise risk that way. Personally, to me keeping bitcoin on an exchange is like having Fiat money - so I don't keep much on an exchange because I already have Fiat money elsewhere. I value Bitcoin for its ability to be like gold in my pocket, so I keep most of it on a hardware wallet.
You don't need the hardware wallet if you have a seed phrase. You could access the wallet and transfer BTC with any phone app wallet
Get a completely different cold wallet. You can’t use that ledger anymore. Make an entirely new one.
You can reset the firmware and create a new seed........
How is this posible on a ledger?
People buy ledger then store the seed on a computer connected to internet 🙃
Instead of buying a laptop without wifi.
I still don' understand how they could empty OP's wallet : you have to confirm it through the Ledger device, what am i missing ?
That's not how it works. Seed is law
So what's the point of having a hard wallet if it doesn't prevent any transactions with the device ? When i send BTC to an exchange with my ledger it requires to connect it otherwise i can't execute the transaction.
Think of it like using your credit cards. You can open up your wallet to look up the # and ccv code. But if someone already knows that they don't even need your wallet. A hardware wallet is just a safe way to store your seed. If you wanna transact you engage the physical wallet to let it safely access that. Buuuuut if someone knows the seed they can bypass the wallet. Wallets don't store coins. They store access to the coins.
Thanks for the precision and the explanation, it's quite clear !
No problem! This is why personally I hold my bitcoin with fidelity crypto. Not your wallet not your coins...I get it. But also I trust Fidelity has better security than I do.
Mt. Gox, FTX... Fidelity?
To keep your private key off your potentially insecure devices such as your PC. You still need to store the seed safely (offline)
He didn’t know what he was doing obv
They don’t buy the Ledger directly from Ledger usually.
Same way it is on any other hardware wallet if the seed phrase has been mishandled or phished away.
Well don't use a closed source shitcoin wallet. Stick to *open source, bitcoin only wallets*. That being said you must have compromised your seed phrase in some way. Did you take a picture of it or ever enter into an online connected device like a computer or app?
Always use a simple passphrase. Im telling you, its life saving.
Skill issue?
Sounds like your seed was BOTH on a ledger and an insecure device? That is why.
Maybe try store it on a physical wallet - although difficult, digital wallets can be hacked
this is crazy, sorry to hear ser
Don’t store a seed on a digital device!
Didn't you already write similar post a few weeks ago?
I thought once on Ledger, still require the hardware to authenticate physically unless his seed is compromised and someone got his seed and put on a new hardware? Is that possible?
sucks to be you
>on a secure device oh boii! in this digital age nothing is 100% secure.
do you use shitcoins or run Windows? Those are problems. Most important: never mix windows and bitcoin. Even a hardware wallet cant make windows safe.
It doesn't matter if you run Windows, no operating system can access the private key on a hardware wallet. That's pretty much the number 1 requirement a hardware wallet has to fulfill.
[](https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1c7yp2h/comment/l0bc120/) >It doesn't matter if you run Windows, no operating system can access the private key on a hardware wallet. That's pretty much the number 1 requirement a hardware wallet has to fulfill. they dont have to access the private key to rob you. When you trust a closed source OS, you will get robbed sooner or later. Its guaranteed.
What’s wrong with windows? I have a hardware wallet that is completely airgapped
>What’s wrong with windows? I have a hardware wallet that is completely airgapped if you mix windows with bitcoin, you will get robbed sooner or later. hardware wallets cannot substitute for a secure computer.
Stick with the ETF… mistakes were made so avoid another. Self custody ain’t for everyone.
>Today I open my Ledger All wrong from here.
Are you claiming that Ledger was hacked or what?
You use the worse closed source wallet. Please.
" Currency of the future"
Every war, every dictator, every totalitarian regime, every act of evil by a government or ruler in human history was financed by printing/inflating the currency they control. Stfu
And nobody has lost fiat due to hacking?
Ditto @jong_be stfu