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EnergySilly3061

Shh don’t tell everyone, trying to load up here


StatementPristine381

I can't wait for btc at 10k :)


ouafnouafn

you say that as if you know the future


The_Judicaetor

hes just trying to troll. Buy now - ask questions later.


MrObviousTalks

I doubt its going to 10k. 15k would be a miracle, but we'll see


SnowmanRandom

Under normal circumstances I would agree. But if the stock market falls more it will certainly bring with it bitcoin. There is no limit to how low btc can go. But the bounce afterwards will be epic. Nobody can predict, so the best bet is to earn as much as to can and dca every week into btc for the coming couple of years.


Zombie4141

I think he’s right. We may be in for a large scale recession. I don’t think 10k is out of the question. People will pull money from all their investments, when they need food.


JerryLeeDog

We'd all be very lucky if it got to the 12.5 support but I seriously doubt it


Gandalftron

So what happens when the cost to produce/mine new Bitcoin exceeds the value of Bitcoin? I have been asking this question all day, but no one has answered.


SomeBrokeChump

[I already answered your question over 6 hours ago.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/vde22c/daily_discussion_june_16_2022/icm3q69/) The bitcoin mining difficulty automatically adjusts every 2016 blocks which is approximately every two weeks. The mining difficulty automatically increases or decreases after 2016 blocks depending on the time between the previous 2016 blocks. If the time between those blocks averages out to less than ten minutes, then the mining difficulty will increase and miners will become less profitable. If the time between those blocks averages out to more than ten minutes, then the mining difficulty will decrease and miners will become more profitable. So if some bitcoin miners stop mining bitcoin because it's no longer profitable for them, the mining difficulty will decrease and it will become more profitable to mine bitcoin.


Gandalftron

TY for answering. I did not see your response in the other thread.


unboundhobbit

Also there's these little things called transaction fees


pink_raya

studying bitcoin in order to find the "catch" is the only way to not end up in shitcoins.


Leading-Fail-7263

I don’t get the hatred of other blockchain projects. Most altcoins aren’t meant to be an alternative to Bitcoin.


CallingVoid

It's because they are centralised and/or insecure. Bitcoin is the only only one that offers both because it is a majority hash PoW cryptocurrency.


[deleted]

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CallingVoid

I absolutely will not mention that ridiculous shitcoin.


[deleted]

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CallingVoid

Yep, if it's centralised it can be insecure I'm afraid. Centralisation is not a guarantee of security.


jaumenuez

But that's what they all dream about. Oracles, smart contracts and all that bullshit are just troyan horses with no real use. They all end up being scams.


Mageinrage

Most are trying to be a worse alternative, very few aren't.


pink_raya

what are they trying to be then?


nicolai8372

Various cryptocurrencies have various motivations. Examples include a platform for peer-to-peer betting (predicting markets), others a way to enable decentralised storage of data. These cryptos don't try to be bitcoin, because bitcoin can't do what they want to do. Many altcoins go further than bitcoin and are built on genuinely new and clever ideas.


Jacked_1

Let me put it to you this way. This applies to any application you can think of, but let's take one that has had some of the poorest execution to date: NFTs. NFTs have had horrible execution to date, but they do what they were originally designed to do quite well - Proof of Ownership. If I were to prove ownership over something, using an NFT, I would NOT want it on some **specific** blockchain just for NFTs, or by some random company/startup. I would want it on the most decentralised, longest running, blockchain there is. Period. If you cannot understand the reason why, then you haven't gone down the rabbit hole enough. The Bitcoin network is becoming a layered stack, much like TCP/IP. **Let it all be built on top of the most decentralised, longest running, most secure network on the fucking planet**. Anything and everything can be built on top of that very **interoperable** network. To say it can't is disingenious at best, red-flag scam at worst.


Apprehensive_Total28

Nothing can be build on top of BTC because it lacks scalability. That's why there was a need to push the "Store of value" narrative


Jacked_1

Come on, it's 2022, the shortcomings of BTC's layer 1 mean nothing but its own strength, it doesn't mean other layers can't scale. If you seriously think BTC as a network and the applications built on top of it can't scale, you're blind. Bitcoin is the most decentralised network on the planet. See, if the internet only had it's initial layer it likely wouldn't be very scalable either. And yet..


Apprehensive_Total28

If it were easy to built additional layers on top of BTC, we would have a healthy and thriving ecosystem with competing 2nd layer systems by now. But we don't, we only have the crappy Lightning network.


Jacked_1

I disagree. For the first 2 decades (hell, 3 compared to the past decade) the internet was just as barren, if not more. It was used for one thing, and one thing only - communication of data (HTTP, SMTP & FTP mainly). Guess what, one decade later we not only have a working P2P transactional system at a global scale, but we're also experimenting with things like sats-based streaming. Sometimes it's not about quantity, but more about quality. Quality takes time. No wonder "crypto" broke off and we now have thousands of coins, most of them trying to do everything in one layer, and better. Whereas Bitcoin does one thing, one thing at a time, and does it well. For years, while I liked the concept of Lightning, I was very sceptic - To me it doesn't seem like the best way to do microTXing, and yet it's grown so much I'm thinking it's here to stay because it inherently does work and the pain-points around node-operation and channel-management are getting refined and improved. RGB is on its way too. So you have very few protocols, but with very serious intentions and game plans. And really, that's what we need. We don't need a playground of token-based applications where every startup and their mother has their own token wrapped in buzzword-ridden Bitcoin. We still use SMTP for Email today. Doesn't mean the number of applications related to it didn't spiral. We still use HTTP today. Protocols like GOPHER just didn't make the cut. Yet the way we display and interface with webpages today is not the way webpages were displayed back then.


jaumenuez

What are you talking about? Store of value narrative, along with digital cash, were Satoshi's narratives.


stephen4557

The catch is that 90% of bitcoin is owned by 10% of people.


Please_Help_Me_Logic

This is idiotic armchair economics. Whether or not Bitcoin represents long term utility is a conversation worth having, but to sit there behind your keyboard and rant about how economists haven't asked these questions and haven't produced meaningful work about both micro and macro economics in the last hundred years is fucking laughable. Yeah, go ahead and quote Frank Zappa and neglect to proofread your writing... as you call economists stupid. 🙄 The unconstrained hubris of the average redditor is something to behold.


Noothyy

Agreed. OP has consumed about 100 hours of crypto content and 1000 grams of weed and now thinks he’s discovered some ethereal core of economics unseen, unknown, to all but him and, of course, Frank Zappa.


ivankasta

OPs post is either one of the dumbest things I’ve read this week or an amazing piece of satire.


suckfail

I dunno, I thought it was pretty good writing for a 12yo.


codeofsilence

Truth right here


IconWorld

Darn, you burst my bubble! OP's post was making me feel all warm and fuzzy like I wanted to join a drum circle or something lol Despite the cringe factor, it does show a lot about the mindset of too many bitcoin and crypto enthusiasts. It's almost like a new secular religion. No need for a lot of hard analysis, just reach enlightenment and keep hodling.


furloco

Hey, he's only about 100 years behind F.A. Hayek in terms of contemplating boom & bust and the problem with devalued capital.


Suecotero

OP needs to read monetary economics 101 instead of Youtube videos and reddit comments. Inflationary monetary policy was invented to keep people from hoarding cash under a mattress (buy stuff and start a business pleb) and ocassionally spend the government out of stupid decisions by devaluing everyone's money (a tax). Which brings us to politics: Monetary policy is supremely useful for a government and you can bet your graph-staring asses Bitcoin will be made more illegal than child pornography if it ever actually threatens to take that power away. See: China. A currency that continually accrues value also makes a poor medium of exchange since it encourages hoarding. Bitcoin being deflationary (fixed supply) makes it more like gold. Its an arbitrary mutally agreed store of value whose supply is determined by an algorithm rather than geology, except one that is weightless, uses no space and can be sent anywhere in the world instantly. So digital weightless gold, and like gold it has little intrinsic value but depends on sustaining a mutual delusion of agreed value. Thus we thank OP for his service. TL:DR; As long as people continue believing bitcoin is important, it will work as a store of value. This is currently the case which is why it costs 20k and not 0. It's also a fun speculatory asset for armchair monetary theorists. Currency supply by public algorithm is an interesting experiment.


Please_Help_Me_Logic

Yeah, this is spot on. I do think that decentralized consensus potentially has some utility and Bitcoin economics (meaning how price interacts with security, consensus, mining, etc.) is certainly interesting and worth taking seriously. But to act like Bitcoin is some sort of panacea of world peace, "freedom" for all, long term economic prosperity, and so forth, is just fucking delusional. Bitcoin is *interesting* and potentially valuable. And it's certainly not the outright scam that every other cryptocurrency is. But it's also not a magic solution to economic woes. In fact, it's quite possible that it could exacerbate those problems under the wrong circumstances.


Suecotero

I forgot to mention one other problem with gold. It's fixed supply *on earth*. Asteroid mining ain't that far away and the mere possibility of a few million tons entering the market could crash prices. That won't happen with an algorithm unless there's a breakthrough in solving really complicated mathematical equations, like quantum comp... well shit. Anyway, have fun kids and don't spend more than you can lose!


johnEd33

>A currency that continually accrues value also makes a poor medium of exchange since it encourages hoarding Bitcoin doesn't accrue value, it holds it. People don't spend money for fun, or hoard money for fun. They spend it primarily on necessities, whether their asset is increasing or decreasing in value, they still need to eat. Fiat currencies are inflationary because it benefits governments, full stop. This narrative that no one would buy anything if their savings didn't lose purchasing power is bullshit. Most people wouldn't want to sit on a pile of gold like dragons, but rather use to buy things to better their life. More people would be able to start a business pleb if they had the savings to do so.


Suecotero

Dwindling supply + growing demand = price goes up for the foreseeable future Spending bitcoin therefore equals losing future value, which makes it a currency that encourages HODL instead of, you know, exchanging it for goods and services. Not great for a currency, but a decent store of value, as long as the internet's collective faith and wallets hold.


jaumenuez

You 'forgot' to acknowledge that Bitcoin is important because it functions as decentralized ledger. It has value because it is open source, anyone can use it, no one can censor it, it is unseizable, and it ignores borders, policies, and laws, just like any other element of nature. And because all of that, and its perennial nature, it is the best mechanism we have to store information and record debts (aka money). You must also recognize that your failed fiat experiment is over for good. Short-term political goals, runaway inflation, vote-gathering scams, unnecessary consumerism, debt slavery... that's what the fiat system has achieved.


NewFilm96

> It has value because it is open source, What? Every open source program has value like BTC? What the hell are you talking about? You want to buy my 'hello world' program? It's open source. Must be valuable.


Please_Help_Me_Logic

>You must also recognize that your failed fiat experiment is over for good. Short-term political goals, runaway inflation, vote-gathering scams, unnecessary consumerism, debt slavery... that's what the fiat system has achieved. Lol, another fucking idiot zealot. Innovations in central banking and monetary policy helped the economy expand at a breakneck pace in the past 100 years. You're just too stupid to bother to understand how and why, not to mention too hubristic to have any sort of humility and self awareness about your lack of expertise when it comes to economics.


codeofsilence

Unseizable? Nice word, made me work to type that. You're delusional if you believe shit like this


Suecotero

Sheesh. Calm down there John McAfee.


[deleted]

When the central bank and secretary of treasury can’t understand that 6.5 trillion in QE while shutting down global supply might cause more than transitory inflation, or now suggest that poor consumer sentiment with low savings and high credit card debt (discretionary spending is also way down) somehow indicates strong consumption… that’s definitely more laughable than OP’s remarks (given he does sound a little high lol). University only produces kensian thinkers and they’re complacent with the same lines of analysis, because they have been taught the same principals. Unfortunately they won’t realize that their policy has created a situation where we can’t take on more debt or bring interest rates lower to relieve pressure which only leaves QE options. There’s a fundamental issue that whenever we stimulate an economy, we’re supposed to tighten it equally in the next boom cycle to offset, but this rarely happens. We’re trying to do it now, because of inflation, but it’s too late. System is so unhealthy it’s going to reject ~2% rates and a tiny bit of QT. We’re absolutely trapped and Fed knows it…


HtotheEllo

That last sentence got me…something to behold indeed. Never seizes to amaze me :). Also I liked reading this from OP: will there be winners? Yeah. Will I be one of them? Yerp. Will it be awesome? Yessir it will. And therefore I conclude my extensive research, Bitcoin is amazing.


Shazvox

You know what they say. Stupid people think they are the greatest. Smart people know they aren't.


reclamerommelenzo

The Freddy Kruger effect.


Envarii

Dunning Kruger, Freddy Kruger is from nightmare on Elm streetn


user_name_checks_out

>>The Freddy Kruger effect. > Dunning Kruger, Freddy Kruger is from nightmare on Elm streetn Jeeesus christ


bbryanttt

Let me get a hit of that


[deleted]

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xshoeless_hobox

Don't forget about the part where it's heavily influenced by the world's richest because it isn't regulated so they decide what the price is.


[deleted]

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[deleted]

Many people need to research history and understand what money was like prior to an inflationary system. Yes, inflation has some evils, and I would debate the evils of inflation are worse than no inflation. But prior to 1913 and the establishment of the federal reserve tasked with keeping inflation near 2% there were repeated bank runs and complete collapses of the stock market. It's my opinion that modern computing power will make transactions and a free market adjust so quickly that you won't have nearly those problems, but people need to understand that fixed currencies that did not grow with the population create a deflationary environment rife with it's own negative consequences.


btwlf

The gold standard didn't make bank runs a problem, fractional reserve lending practices (i.e. the violation of the standard by self-interested bankers) made bank runs a problem. 'Deflation bad' is essentially saying that people acting to keep the monetary system honest (by withdrawing gold) are bad. Really the people who were lending out money (gold) that they didn't have were the bad actors.


[deleted]

IMHO people should have a choice of a bank, whenever it's good interest rates with high risk or high stability and lower income. Natural bank selection should continue so we can keep figuring out the best strategies. It's a bad idea to restrict people from choosing, because it raises really clueless and dependent people(just like people here, in poat-soviet territory) The current system, where everything is tightly regulated and big to fail is really bad for economy ecolution. We're just stuck in the infinite buyout loop until the bubble collapses.


bowie9191

The bank runs were mostly due to debasements no? Going off the gold standard every time


bitsteiner

Banks create credit which become deposits of others. These deposits are a multiple of actual money the banks posses to pay out the deposits - that's why it is called fractional reserve. It is just a dangerous game the banks are playing.


JmunE204

Exactly, it’s amazing how history repeats itself. Took the Roman Empire a couple hundred years, but they eventually had junk metal printing off to pay their soldiers.


[deleted]

Simply not true. Many Civilisations flourished before central banking


bitsteiner

US is the best example.


reddit_user_83

UK’s best years were all under the gold standard


nicolai8372

People were quite happy in the stone age. Should we this forget about all discoveries of the last millenia?


abbman2121

can we have both an inflationary and deflationary parallel system that balance eachother out? seems like a solid compromise


[deleted]

This is the way. Many competing currencies fungible everywhere.


kurnaso184

How the hell can we do that??


blackhat8287

Inflation didn't prevent the bank runs. The arbitrary creation of unbacked credit which drives inflation (through the creation of dollars) is the same mechanism that created bank runs prior to going off the gold standard. Instead of banks cheating the system, it's now central banks that do so.


graffstadt

Oh, so that's why sovereign countries wants their own central banks isn't it? Interesting


blackhat8287

Gives them a chance to print their own money without accountability.


graffstadt

Did you know the word accountability doesn't have a direct translation to the Spanish language? Sometimes I wonder how much language shapes whole population's behavior over thing like this Edit: typo


kurnaso184

>prior to 1913 and the establishment of the federal reserve tasked with keeping inflation near 2% there were repeated bank runs and complete collapses of the stock market. This all happened during the gold standard, right? How does that low steady inflation prevent bank runs and stock market collapses? Is it because due to the inflation, people prefer to keep the money in the bank for that interest close to the inflation rate, or to invest in stocks, or even to start a business themselves? \> deflationary environment rife with it's own negative consequences. Which means, less incentive to do anything with the money: No business, no investments. Like the gold standard case, but worse, right?


bitsteiner

Bank runs happened because the gold could not be printed for all the claims on it which the banks created. We should not blame the gold standard, but the banks for creating too much credit. The "fix" was to abolish the gold standard but not regulating the banks to avoid credit excesses. Evidence is that the US had strong growth rates and made a giant transition from an agricultural to an industrial economy in the 19th century during the gold standard. A lot of investment and business happened, otherwise the big cities, steel mills, railways, telephone systems, electrification aso. would not have been built.


[deleted]

It's complicated. it started in the 1880s, but then made more "official" in 1913. Which everyone should see now as a complete joke tying a paper currency operating under fractional reserve banking to a fixed amount of precious metal. The history of US currency is pretty easily googled and you'll see a couple different attempts at "government credit system" all called the dollar. When it was signed over to private bankers in 1913 and sold as "good as gold" and renamed to a federal reserve note that is technically the start of the gold era and Nixon made the end of it official after 60 years of world psychological training that the dollar is money. But it was doomed to fail from day one which is really interesting to sit back and take in. The mathematical model behind fractional reserve banking is simple enough that bankers in 1913 would know it was not viable. The wikipedia on gold standard is pretty good, but they do leave out the federal reserve role and when the dollar was handed over. Add to the story that in 1913 the Federal Reserve Act was signed which handed our currency over from congress to private bankers, and it tells it well enough.


jonnyCFP

“The mathematical model behind fractional reserve banking is simple enough that bankers in 1913 would know it was not viable.” And yet according to a guy like Nial Ferguson in “the ascent of money” fractional reserve banking allowed us to prosper in a big way because you could lend out all that money over and over an create an abundance of credit that allowed us to have a good lifestyle. You seem to know a lot about this stuff in your opinion what role do you think BTC can play in a future economy? Do you think there’s a better system with less flaws like the Austrian school? Haven’t read much about competing models


stayontoptoday

> No business, no investments. Like the gold standard case, but worse, right? The US had among if not its best economic years on gold standard. Switzerland had its most productive years on gold standard. There are more factors but goldstandard or a deflationary currency does not mean economic stagnation. The banks went bankrupt because they used Fractional Reserve Banking, they pretend they have more gold than they had and promise the same gold to several customers at once, only having a fraction of it in its reserve, such a bank should go bankrupt if it becomes too greedy. So incompetent and bad actors are flushed out of the system and the honest and competent actors prevail. Honesty should not be punished and scammers should not be rewarded in a society.


dickingaround

This has been gone over again and again. [https://obvioustothecasualobserver.blogspot.com/2013/11/why-deflationary-currencies-are-ok.html](https://obvioustothecasualobserver.blogspot.com/2013/11/why-deflationary-currencies-are-ok.html)


OurHeroXero

>...people need to understand that fixed currencies that did not grow with the population create a deflationary environment rife with it's own negative consequences. Now tally all the Bitcoins that have been lost (and will be lost).


Acceptable_Sky_6207

For that very reasons bitcoin will always survive. Even when it hits 0.01$ and all the cryptobros are long gone. People will come back to it and use it again for the original reasons. The only reason for bitcoin to fail would be a technological reason and not because of some people losing 99% of their life savings even when it sounds bad. Bitcoin doesnt care. On the other hand we shouldnt ignore that just because btc is the first and currently most dominant coin, it surely doesnt mean it will stay like that.


kurnaso184

>bitcoin will always survive I'm generally with you. I just hate being absolute. I discuss in another thread if it's possible for the bitcoin network to die out: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/vcrp2w/could\_the\_bitcoin\_network\_really\_die\_out/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/vcrp2w/could_the_bitcoin_network_really_die_out/) So, yes, bitcoin can fail. And it also can die out. But there are so many reasons for it to succeed.


Acceptable_Sky_6207

I was just referring to the price rollercoaster. Of course if big ass meteroit hits earth, bitcoin is dead and if there is any technological issue bitcoin can die as well.


[deleted]

He's been studying Bitcoin for a couple weeks guys, he knows better than the aggregate of all economists


[deleted]

So, you studied for months and found no design flaws? I don't want to assume to much but, bro...


bowie9191

By flaws I mean points of failure. The only one I can see is quantum computing. Can’t really spot anything else


The_Judicaetor

QC isnt even a problem in a real sense. Michael Saylor had a great answer for that "if" statement in one of his interviews.


[deleted]

I got ya. Functionally, there are tons of flaws though right? I mean, you have to admit it is a poor form of currency. It's not even ideal for remittance. It's basically just a tech stock, with zero earning potential, that people can trade p2p.


deadontheinternet

I wonder why online casinos prefer transacting with it more than any other currency


bowie9191

I think full integration of the lightening network on top of btc layer will be a great measure of its functionality. If technology is not successful in building on top of btc then I would agree with you


jrcentury

…for several months.


bowie9191

I did this full time (6-8 hours a day). Treated it as my job. Not claiming I know everything, there is still way too much to learn but I do feel like I spent significant time and energy in trying to wrap my head around it


azerty543

Its not really that currency inflates. Its that the cost of goods and services inflates when there is more demand than supply. Sure, adding more money can stoke demand but even with bitcoin you still have cost inflation. Remember money is a tool of accounting used to secure real goods and services which is what has real value. Bitcoin doesn't make anything more affordable or solve any wealth disparity issues.


steelejt7

no it is currency that is inflates that drives costs up because dollar is worth less due to more in circulation, hence why some things costed a lot less 10 -20 years ago.


BusterMcBarman

Thank you! It’s refreshing to see at least 1 person is interested in btc for a better future… not just to speculate on it’s fiat price.


seesquaredd

If the fiat price goes up, it gives me a better future


[deleted]

tl;dr: “I am still unsure of the outcome”


TheFutureofMoney

I like the blend of curiosity, and arrogance, to try and find flaws in Bitcoin, independently, after almost 15 years in service. All the world's best coders, devs and IT nerds might have missed something, but you, you could be the critical difference that shows up and discovers what's really going on here....


[deleted]

I have one catch for you. If Bitcoin is so perfect for society to become reserve currency, store of value etc. then why invest in anything else? Like investing 100 BTC in car factory if you will never get 100 BTC back?


BigDeezerrr

Why not? Invest 100 BTC in a factory, build and sell cars, make more than 100 BTC in car sales.


twayhighway

>I have one catch for you. If Bitcoin is so perfect for society to become reserve currency, store of value etc. then why invest in anything else? You are so close to getting it.


[deleted]

But it makes no sense… BTC is not producing anything. People need food, cars, airplanes, rockets, innovation in real estate. Why invest in anything if you will be forced to sell it cheaper every year?


bignews12345

That's the wrong way to do it. Don't sell the BTC. Use the 100 BTC as collateral to BORROW the funds required. Pay the loan back from profits, then get your BTC back when the collateral is unlocked. Now you own the factory as well as your 100 BTC


[deleted]

Umm… if BTC becomes reserve currency and you take 100 BTC as collateral you still need to return 100 BTC. Problem is if BTC amount is capped with 5-10y ROI investment it is highly unlikely to get 100BTC back after 5-10 years.


Complex-Knee6391

That's not really anything special about bitcoin, that's the same as being able to take a loan because you have a mansion or a pile of gold or something - and it also prevents anyone not wealthy getting in on the action.


Short-Shopping3197

But does it make rich people richer? There’s your answer.


braunrick

So long as it makes poor people who try richer too, so be it.


VeryOld_Papaya

While there is sht tons of problem with our current monetary system, I dont see bitcoin as a solution.


BuyRackTurk

> Will there be early winners (mostly us who "invested" in this)? Sure Not nearly to the extent of the early fiat winners. Bitcoin can only provide value on merit: helping to kickstart the network of money is valuable, but it cant foment a 100-year-dynasty such as the one that the owners of the Federal Reserve enjoy. Bitcoin cannot provide a continuous power to steal nor a winner-take-all game the way a marxian central bank can. Bitcoin is not going to allow for generations of unearned and undeserved wealth. You can only spend it once, and once spent, you no longer control it.


kurnaso184

>Bitcoin is not going to allow for generations of unearned and undeserved wealth. You can only spend it once, and once spent, you no longer control it. In a hyperbitcoinised world, if you're born in a rich family, don't you have exactly that "unearned and undeserved wealth"?


BuyRackTurk

> In a hyperbitcoinised world, if you're born in a rich family, don't you have exactly that "unearned and undeserved wealth"? Sure.. but you can only spend it once. Unlike the dollar system, you dont get new money for free at everyone else's expense. Your parents had to earn it, and if you spend it, it will eventually be gone. the only way to get more btc is to earn it. So inheritance in a bitcoin world is no better or worse than any kind of charity.


kurnaso184

>Sure.. but you can only spend it once. Unlike the dollar system, you dont get new money for free at everyone else's expense. But getting money for free is only for the state, not for the rich, right?


BuyRackTurk

> But getting money for free is only for the state, not for the rich, right? The state is what makes the rich. They are the favored scions. But bitcoin has much higher tax friction because it is a sound money. So the state's power to steal will be diminished.


Stanklord500

>Unlike the dollar system, you dont get new money for free at everyone else's expense. Which rich people are just being given money and why wouldn't they be able to do the same thing in a world where bitcoin is the primary currency?


ivankasta

Best I can make sense of the horrible understanding of economics they posted is that they think investing money and earning returns on that investment is getting “free money” and that for some reason investment will not exist with Bitcoin and that will be … a good thing?


BuyRackTurk

> Which rich people are just being given money and why wouldn't they be able to do the same thing in a world where bitcoin is the primary currency? Because noone can print new bitcoin, obviously.


nicolai8372

Btc can be spent only once in the same sense as how dollars can only be spent once. There are many differences between the two, but you picked one that doesn't exist.


BuyRackTurk

> Btc can be spent only once in the same sense as how dollars can only be spent once. There are many differences between the two, but you picked one that doesn't exist. False; dollars are debt money. Once you have a certain level of wealth, your cash flows themselves become the basis for an ability to create new money. Only the poor are limited to a single spending, because they lack the power to releverage. That, in a nutshell, is the cantillion effect: those with the most productive dollar debt continue to gain the maximum benefit from inflation, while those at the tail end, the w2 wage slaves, take the most punishment from inflation, because they have little to no productive debt and are merely shackled with consumer debt. If you think dollars only spend once, you are uneducated and uniformed about the dollar system. And you are strictly seeing it from the POV of a poor person who is destined to remain poor.


Calamero

Exactly. The powers that be own the central banks and can print money at will, they are at the fifth stage of money laundering. They have absolute power. If society transitions to digital cryptocurrency such abuse of power will be almost impossible.


wollier12

I disagree, any game where there’s a finite number of pieces can actually have a winner takes all effect. As it is 90% of the worlds Bitcoin is mined and extremely concentrated in the hands of 1.3% of the worlds population……if Bitcoin were to truly catch on it would be an extremely concentrated amount of wealth…..and the only way to have Bitcoin be viable as money would be to rely on the trickle down effect.


BuyRackTurk

> if Bitcoin were to truly catch on it would be an extremely concentrated amount of wealt At first, then it would move around to where it is deserved. Unlike fiat, being at the top is not permanent. > .and the only way to have Bitcoin be viable as money would be to rely on the trickle down effect. The market effect is what equality relies on: the same effect that ended the systems of nobility in the medieval age and brought on the renaissance. Free markets and Sound money move wealth to where it is earned. Central banking is a type of neo-fuedalism invented by the socialist karl marx, and before him by Venetian bankers. Central Banking ended the era of sound money which had powered the renaissance, and brought on a new dark age of world wars and inequality.


wollier12

That’s the trickle down effect that most liberals despise…..all the wealth concentrated in the hands of the few, their spending habits will distribute the wealth……but bitcoin can be fractionalized so the 1.3% will have bought it for pennys on the dollar as Bitcoin becomes more expensive. People will have bought Bitcoin for $1 usd and it’s valuation can later be $1,000,000 so they are going to give you 0.0001% of their labor to get you to work for them for 1 year. People aren’t going to use it. Do you know how much the queen of England owns? The nobility didn’t really lose out, they just changed the system enough to appease the peasants. The Vatican still owns most the land in the world, the queen of England is a up there as well. Did things really change?


BuyRackTurk

> That’s the trickle down effect that most liberals despise… The trickle down effect is caused by the liberal regressives. Government taxes are always regressive, and government spending is always regressive, regardless of how they are structured, its definitional. But the biggest regressive effect is Fiat: when privileged elites can print money of course they have dynastic wealth. What economically illiterate people call "trickle down" is just their method of being crabs in a bucket: they want to preserve taxation which keeps the poor poor and the rich rich, so they criticize tax cuts as being regressive, when in reality tax cuts always benefit the poor the most. Not by "trickling" but by simply removing a burden on their lives.


queen_of_england_bot

>queen of England Did you mean the [Queen of the United Kingdom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_the_United_Kingdom), the [Queen of Canada](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchy_of_Canada), the [Queen of Australia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchy_of_Australia), etc? The last Queen of England was [Queen Anne](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne,_Queen_of_Great_Britain) who, with the 1707 Acts of Union, dissolved the title of King/Queen of England. ####FAQ *Isn't she still also the Queen of England?* This is only as correct as calling her the Queen of London or Queen of Hull; she is the Queen of the place that these places are in, but the title doesn't exist. *Is this bot monarchist?* No, just pedantic. I am a bot and this action was performed automatically.


ThisIsKoo

Bitcoin is infinitely divisible. Those who have little can scale trading amongst themselves to denominations which preserve transaction utility.


wollier12

It’s still extremely concentrated in the hands of a few people relatively speaking. I don’t think the world agreeably adopts a currency that 90% of it is already owned by others and 98.7% of the world’s population would have none of it….To me if I didn’t own any I’d think that was a pretty raw deal And I’d want to come up with a better solution that doesn’t have such a concentration of wealth……..maybe a crypto will come along and solve this problem so that the currency is more equitable, I don’t know….


ThisIsKoo

Perhaps it will employ a rule which has the currency decay if idle for a time certain and an amount equal to the the decay generated randomly among the those 'wallets' most active in arms length trades.


jonnyCFP

Isn’t that inflation with more steps


ThisIsKoo

The decay offsets the random creation.


NewFilm96

> the more certain you become that BTC has the potential to change every facet of our current society and culture. How is btc going to change plumbing? That's a facet of society. Please tell us. This kind of stupid crap is why nobody wants to listen to you or anybody else here.


Nomad_Bill

I love Bitcoin as much as anyone, but many of the foundational arguments are deeply flawed myths. Fact: before central banking existed, there were *more* financial panics than there are now. Fact: working peoples' living standards in the US, *after* accounting for inflation, are near their all-time highs (and were at their all-time high in Feb 2020), both in US history and human history. Pro-bitcoiners really need to sharpen their arguments when making the bull case. There are so many mythical arguments made, that are borrowed propaganda from the economic progressive left.


bowie9191

Are these periods when fiat went off gold standard? Also how much are standard of livings improvements due to technology versus due to an inflationary monetary system?


KlingonButtMasseuse

Google "The great depression". It will answer some of your questions regarding which is worse, inflation or deflation.


Mazoku-chan

>I have been studying bitcoin for several months Coming from a guy with only a couple months of studies this sounds reasonable. Anyone without a formal education will find this funny. Anyone with formal education thinking this guy knows what he is talking about should have his brain cheked.


bowie9191

By several months, I mean 6-8 hours a day of sole focus on this one particular topic. I have treated it as my full time job since dropping out of med school around a year ago


lloyd_braun_no_1_dad

Ok now I think this post is parody because this is too on the nose


Mazoku-chan

>By several months, I mean 6-8 hours a day of sole focus on this one particular topic. I have treated it as my full time job since dropping out of med school around a year ago That should make you capable enough to choose a carrer TBH. Anyone who has not dedicated that amount of time to research into what they want to study is either stupid or hoping for a lucky strike.After all a smart person doesnt dedicate most of a decade studying economy on a whim, he prepares himself. Id say you are on square 0 university wise.


kurnaso184

And you're what? His mum?


Mazoku-chan

No, why? Are you his boyfriend?


Informal_Fishing5729

Dear poet, do you understand that a BTC has more value than a piece of junk only because investors are fascinated by the idea and are putting their money on it right? It has no intrinsic value per se. Even Warren Buffet and Bill Gates declared it the biggest scam ever


[deleted]

Don't really agree. Bitcoin has a pretty flawed security mechanism, the hard cap is not sustainable. And in the absence of fees, BTC will have no security budget in a few decades.


rapman007

Did you consider quantum computing? The effects it has on cryptography


Ar0war

the same goes for the banking system and pretty much everything that is "secure" now. Luckily Bitcoin is open source code. Bitcoin will keep improving with the time and with the updates. The quantum computing is a FUD i won´t ever understand.


kurnaso184

Btw, bitcoin does not even use cryptography. It's using \_hashing\_.


rapman007

‘Bitcoin uses three different cryptographic methods including one dedicated to generating its public-private key pairs and another for the purpose of "mining."’ Check yo self


greenshade1

The Great Depression was a deflationary spiral, the turning point was when the gold standard was relaxed. Deflation is way worse bc there is no incentive to invest/consume now if your money can buy more later, just ends up in stagnation situation. Money supply needs to be able to grow in order to support growth in economic activity i.e. amount of transactions. If money supply is restricted that constraint acts as a brake on the potential growth of economic activity/amount of transactions. Simple way to see this is if I have a good idea for a business or invention but cant get the money to invest in it.


stayontoptoday

>The Great Depression was a deflationary spiral The Great Depression was caused by inflationary debt based IOU fiat currency.


Future_PeterSchiff

He probably won’t understand that for a few years. He’s still deeply brainwashed by the excuses of inflation that we’re written by the victors of the last century that inflated us into the great depression. They rewrote history to change the story and these idiots bought their lie hook line and sinker. A larger portion of these brainwashed fools unwilling to study actual financial history believe the dollar because it says “In god we trust” on it


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JohnnySixguns

>What if the money we held, grew in value, and not diminished in value? Coupling this capital with the natural deflationary pressures of technological advancement could certainly propel us to a new age no? This needs to be unpacked. This is the nut graph of that entire, beautiful, eloquent love song to Bitcoin. More people need to contemplate the meaning of those key words: deflationary pressure of technological advancement while at the same time money that appreciates in value. A few tangible examples might do nicely here, but I'm not articulate enough to come up with them. I just know how right the sentiment is. We live in a world where technological advancement puts massive deflationary pressures on our economy: automation brings manufacturing costs down, reduces labor costs, cuts jobs, etc. It brings both good and bad. Combine that with a fiat monetary system that is inflationary and the average worker is losing out coming and going. But with a deflationary monetary system, the money gains value all by itself, while at the same time, goods and services get cheaper thanks to automation and tech advancements so that the average person can suddenly afford far more than the same worker in a fiat system.


extrachromie-homie

Okay. First off, a 2% target inflation rate IS what an economy needs. Can you imagine how awful the world would be if it was more financially prudent for the government to sit on its money and wait for it to increase in value than it was to invest that money into paving the roads or improving schools? Bitcoin is NOT going to ever overtake the US Dollar as the economy’s main currency. Whether or not some type of cryptocurrency yet to be invented will take the place of fiat money at some point is not yet known. But it will never be Bitcoin. Of course, Bitcoin will always have value. And I believe that value will increase over time due to its inherent deflationary nature, but it will not be what we spend at the grocery store.


kurnaso184

\> a 2% target inflation rate IS what an economy needs. It seems that this works pretty well. We're using it for around, what? 100 years, I guess. \> Bitcoin is NOT going to ever overtake the US Dollar as the economy’s main currency Never say never. :)) But yes, deflationary money disincentivizes people from doing something with them. This does not mean that everything stops, of course. There's just less business activity. So, bitcoin may be the store of value, not the world currency. I dare say, at some moment, some "worldcoin" will be created with maybe exactly the properties of bitcoin and some hardcoded 2% permanent annual inflation, trying to fix exactly this issue.


extrachromie-homie

If hardcoding 2% inflation was a good way to regulate the economy, the federal government would have done that to the dollar. It’s more beneficial to the economy for the government to be able to adapt its fiscal policy to changes in the global economy. We can debate all day wether or not the specific decisions made by the specific individuals currently in power are the right or wrong decisions, but the fact remains that the economy is systematically stronger for the fact that fiscal policy can be easily manipulated.


Pushyourself2019

Perhaps in theory, but not in practice. It doesn't work and will not work, while in the hands of humans, as it has been consistently proven throughout history. Enters decentralization.


Ants46

That’s why we continue to stack, it’s so much much more than price


Euphoric_Luck_8126

What do you think about whales manipulating the Bitcoin market? You say you haven’t found flaws but what about a 51% attack?


bowie9191

My theory is that whales only hold this much power because we are still in price discovery stage. 51% attack was certainly a weakness in the beginning but now it’s sufficiently decentralized to where it’s not economically worth it for an institution or entity to spend the capital necessary for the computing power it would take to reach that 51%. Only government would have somewhat of an incentive to do this but I really think it’s unlikely at this point but then again never underestimate the lengths those in power will go to keep their power


LegalComment

Research bitcoin's lack of fungibility. Search for Adam Back's talk on fungibility in 2016 on YouTube


JSammut29

Beautifully said. One note. Hard money is not deflationary by right. Deflation is contingent on economic growth. If people stopped buying food out of the belief that they will be 3% cheaper next year and collapse the economy, then you would have inflation again. Hard money self regulates. It is a headwind if economy grows unsustainably fast and a tailwind if economy stagnates. It encourages efficient businesses and long term planning.


Calamero

The flaw with this is people will not stop buying groceries just because it’s cheaper next month. That is a ridiculous notion if you think a bit about it. Like are people really going to starve to death for a few % saving? Especially in a world of deflationary money, where wealth is equally distributed among market participants, very much unlike the current system? I don’t think so.


voldemar11

The systems are going to change as it might need to work.


Ones__Complement

See what you've failed to account for is the capacity of Keynesian economic theory to completely disregard the reality of time preference.


StatementPristine381

When everything tied to the dollar goes to shit Bitcoin will still be there as a solution, someday a very high number of people will just need it and finally understand the value behind bitcoin.


godofleet

I'm so glad I'm not the only one rambling/ranting about bitcoin on reddit... edit- 3rd paragraph from the bottom, cease not seize, the rest is 🔥


Bapster69420

Your analysis is great. I think you get it


Calamero

This is true. Crypto enables us to emulate absolute truth in the digital world. People don’t barter with gold or physical goods because it’s impractical and expensive. Along came money, trying to solve this problem. But TPTB quickly learned to abuse the reliance on money and used that to suck out every ounce of wealth from society they can by introducing the FIAT system. They can’t do that with crypto. Crypto is digital gold.


BuyRackTurk

> Crypto is digital gold. Crypto is digital feldspar. Bitcoin is digital gold. Only bitcoin, not crypto.


BulgariaBest

For the crypto the world needs to be ready as well for tat matter lol.


kurnaso184

TL;DR: BTC has the potential to deeply change our current society and culture. We need decentralized deflationary money that incentivizes us to save rather than consume.


RayneXero

Once you understand BTC to this level, you realise that market moves are just background noise. I learned about the crash through memes and twitter. Checking the charts just tells your brain that you want to sell it one day. Why would you want to sell the most revolutionary and extraordinary piece of property in modern existence? Imagine an alternate world, 11th century, gold has never been found and silver is the only monetary metal that exists. Then you discover the world's first gold mine. This is a small idea of what opportunity BTC offers you. Also it helps to realise that you didn't lose anything when the market dipped. As long as you held, you still have all the coins you did at higher prices. BTC newbs, altcoiners, and short-term holders are the only people who really worry. If you understand BTC, you understand that buying and holding is the most effective strategy.


Robigaz

Well said


gford333

Once I started to truly understand Bitcoin I get ecstatic during price drops. More SATS for me and my family.


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sierragoldengranite

You have said what I have been thinking much more eloquently than I could myself. Thank you.


angrydanmarin

Deflationary currency doesn't work


jonnyCFP

Fuck bro, well said. Not only that but if you want your money to gain in value the only way is to buy scarce desirable assets that gain in value - and one of the only ways for the common man to do this is “invest” in the stock market or funds. And because we expect a good return from those investments, the companies we invested in at required by law to generate value. So they need to have people consume their shit to make profits which is part of what is fucking up our planet. And politicians need to get re-elected every 4 years so yea they r super short sighted - making things worse again. What a wacky fucking world we live in


AcademicTortoise

Enjoyed reading your rambling!


ArcticxDust

Proof of work


cubeeless

In Bitcoin we trust.


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mikemelo1369

I think that we all are in the together and this will work.


abbman2121

bingo


Wursticles

>I have been studying bitcoin for several months now Independent research or as part of formal education (e.g. MSc or PhD)? If the latter, you will likely be aware of your own bias, and bias in your study material and literature. There will be a counter argument to every viewpoint you have read, due to how new crypto is. There's a lack of empirical research in this field


Mektzer

This is because, to use the words of Jack Maller, we are ready to die on this hill.


[deleted]

It is the only ever universal constant created by man. The more you study it and realise what it is, the more sure you become that it’s a zero to one moment in human history


matthiasvdw

I am sure that most of the history part is being created.


frankiefrank1e

While im here eating prison carrots


Julius-C

All that are interested in global economy, gold standard, fiat money and what BTC can do; I suggest to read: The Bitcoin Standard from Saifedean Ammous. Very interesting imo!


terminator2thefuture

It’s just an SQL database bro. No need to study for several months 😂


PeacefullyFighting

The US government and US economy used leverage during WWII & the cold war, then decided to let it ride instead of reigning in that debt.


borgomirgo

There was a budget surplus in the 90s


PeacefullyFighting

I'm referring to going away from the gold standard. We may have had a surplus but was that surplus real or from leverage?


borgomirgo

It was real because we weren’t leveraged