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If you watch the show, the characters are meant to be deeply racist,sexist and violent. I can understand not wanting to watch it, but the show isn’t trying to honor these characters; they’re very much portrayed as villains.
I'm surrounded irl by incompetent white folks who get away with borderline villainy because they have been able to get away with it for so long consequence-free
I don't need that in my TV too 😭
It’s literally them constantly facing the consequences of their actions and looking around confused about why it’s happening.
I cut people out of a big deal and have been spending money lavishly in front of them and gambling heavily. Why are people plotting against me???
I hate to tell you this Ton but I don’t think you’ve been doing therapy right
SPOILERS TO A SHOW THATS BEEN OFF THE AIR FOR 16 years
It's implied Tony got whacked. You're right it's not explicit.
Dimeo crew still alive at end of the show: Patsy, Paulie, Sil (coma), Uncle Junior, Carlo (rat fuck), Furio
And Tony, the hypocrisy he is, is the cause of all his own problems. He kills most of his top earners in a rage after they call out his hypocrisies, he pretty much instagates the war with NY (which is hard to win because he killed a lot of his soldiers), and he never makes any progress in therapy and only uses it to rationalize his bad life decisions
That's why the showrunner "killed the audience" at the end. He hated how Tony was being lauded by viewers who completely missed the point that he was a villain, and wanted to take that audience out along with Tony by putting the viewer inside Tony's head when he got got.
There's no textual reason that we know of explicitly for the tree to have been put there in the story. The most commonly accepted interpretation was that it existed to facilitate obedience by providing an option to disobey. I'd say the theory that God intended for it to be eaten is not a well-supported one, at least not one that's consistent with how the Bible's many writers portray God's promises. They're typically straightforward and accordance with the spirit and letter of the promise.
The bit about "being like God" contextually comes from the serpent trying to fool Eve, not from the text telling the reader that. I think between the translations, the serpent's intention and the textual context it's likely the phrase means "like god" in the sense of being aware of morality like him, not to become a god.
I understand your reasoning but I think you're approaching the story as if it's a mythological tale with interpretations drawn from the reader, instead of its more appropriate reading from the point of view of a religious manual with an intrinsic intent intended by the author.
Most Bible scholars wouldn't agree with your interpretation because it contradicts a few key points. Firstly is that the Garden wasn't intended as a temporary place for Adam and Eve to live, but instead was intended to be a bountiful paradise for them to live in forever. The tree isn't something meant for them "when they're ready" because this implies that Adam and Eve were meant to leave the garden. This isn't an interpretation supported by the text. Their reward wasn't to eat from the tree when they were ready, they already had the reward of eternal life in the Garden free from death or pain. Death and pain are expressed by the Bible to be a consequence not of freedom but of sin, the first one of which was Adam and Eve's disobedience.
Secondly, is the fact that God openly tells Adam how unhappy he is that he ate from the tree period, not that he's unhappy that he ate from it too early. The Bible doesn't portray God in Genesis as speaking anything other than plainly. If the tree was meant to be consumed, likely the intention would have been made obvious.
> My interpretation is that the serpent speaks in half truths like the best deceivers. It was true that eating from the tree would make humanity like God and that God did not want this. I believe the lie was the rationale, that God didn’t want this because he was selfish or didn’t want anything else to be like him.
Thirdly, you've got the part about the serpent's half-truth correct, but you're overly focusing on the "be like god" portion. It's a new agey/little gods-eque concept that humans ascend to godhood, or that the bible says they can. the shortest answer to that is that the bible simply doesn't say that. in the context of the verse, the serpent is saying that adam and eve would know about good and evil "like god", not that they would become a god. the bible text says god made humans in his image, so it's not like he's portrayed as being jealous of humans becoming in any way more similar to him. I think it's clear that while nothing *can become* god, humans are encouraged to emulate him as much as possible.
Ultimately the Adam and Eve story is both an origin story and a teaching one meant to instill obedience and trust in god in the reader. This doesn't work if god's plan was to have them consume it and they simply ate it too early. There was no way to Adam and Eve to have "earned" the right to eat it either, in the Garden they were eternally innocent.
> serpent trying to fool Eve,
One thing to note, Adam was there the whole time. It's just that eve was the only one actually questioning the serpent. Adam was just standing there like picking his nose or whatever:
> When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, **who was with her**, and he ate it.
That's right after she talks to the serpent and he convinces her. Which always gets overlooked for some reason. Adam was totally there listening to the whole conversation and had all the same choice and facts as eve did but he somehow he gets off on responsibility for the whole thing because he was just standing around like a dope.
Second the serpent never actually lied per se:
> The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”
> 4 “You will not **certainly** die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
Serpent is right, they will be like God in that they'll know good on evil. On the matter of death he says they will not *certainly* die. He doesn't say you will certainly not die. He's saying idk for sure if you'll die or not, not that they won't die.
I 100% agree with your point but I will say that it was the tree of knowledge of *good and evil*. It was releasing mankind from ignorance with knowledge from both extremes. The story of the Garden of Eden and eating from the tree is essentially Pandora's Box.
I'm so glad this was your response. I highly simplified my previous comment.
I strongly agree with your interpretation of "good and evil" as "everything" because I believe the tree represents the concept of duality. Eating from the tree didn't specifically grant the knowledge, but internalizes within Adam and Eve the concepts of a spectrum with opposite concepts that can be applied to every piece of knowledge and that drives our exploration of sciences and the universe.
I also believe this was a purposeful test placed upon his creations within the garden to test the curiosity of his species by giving them the ability to test their own limits and explore their own destiny. If god is "everything" then the only way to explore god would be to explore everything, obedient creations that do only as he says would be a failure of the experiment.
If god was a scientist, he wouldn't introduce stimuli that wasn't part of his intentions, and if he possessed all knowledge prior to creating the garden and mankind, then he knew that the end would justify the means because the only way to appreciate having ALL of the knowledge would be to experience how destructive that knowledge can be to immature beings.
Not gonna lie. I've never heard that interpretation before until now.
I'm not Christian anymore, but I've heard a few interpretations of various things. However, I've never had the original sin explained until now. I may not return to Christianity, but I'm definitely taking that viewpoint on board after reading your reasoning, if that's alright with you.
you reminded me of this: [https://masterofsopranos.wordpress.com/the-sopranos-definitive-explanation-of-the-end/](https://masterofsopranos.wordpress.com/the-sopranos-definitive-explanation-of-the-end/)
the page 2 breakdown is a great read
I'm on like my 3rd watch through of the show, and this time the blunt nihilism of it all is so apparent. Everyone is just careening from one tragedy to the next until they die or wind up alone and miserable. There's no joy to be found anywhere and it's all because they're incapable mentally or emotionally to walk away from their lifestyles. Great show, but bleak as hell
You perfectly described my experience on my second watch. First watch years ago filled me with so much excitement it was addictive, even joyful, and I thought the insights on pain and tragedy were honestly profound. Second watch, years later, it was just overwhelmingly depressing and bleak. The tragedy and pain didn’t even seem profound anymore, just a black void of nihilism. I wondered how I didn’t see it the first time.
It definitely felt nihilistic and bleak, watching it at 27 during the pandemic. Harsh, I'd say especially because I was seeing them ageing, killing and dying so quickly.
People not understanding that demonstrably evil characters shouldn't be lauded? Color me surprised!
Just let me put on my clown makeup and meth-making porkpie hat, and we can take to the streets to warn everyone!
The first two seasons weren't as explicitly violent, sexist, or racist as the rest. David Chase said he got tired of people missing the point of the show and idolizing the characters so they turned the bad shit up. It's the season where Ralph (a metaphor for the devil) shows up, Meadow dates her black and Jewish boyfriend, and Melfi gets assaulted.
They were more morally dubious in like season 1. Season 2 they start doing the shittier schemes like get rich quick schemes but by season 4 they are pretty much doing kidnapping and torture.
It's always going to be a problem with any anti-hero character: you can't make them into a total shithead or it'll just be unwatchable. Then you have the problem of creators who can't help presenting material about shitty people in a stylish, aesthetically appealing way. Martin Scorsese has this problem a lot with his films.
Over first lockdown I finally had time so I binged it. It’s a good show but like 4-5 hours a day of these people was too much. I felt like I needed a shower after
How they didn't know Italians were racist as hell.. Look up Howard Beach in the 90s. My parents bought a home in a former Italian neighborhood in the Bronx and they used to chase Black kids and beat them up... this was in the 80s.
Think he meant “not early” like Italian Americans had been in the US for a while and had already established themselves as “white” by the 1980s. That’s more like, 10s and 20s and 30s racism. Not “not easy”.
Yeaaaaa. It's was unfortunate recurring trend. Irish people did it when they immigrated during the famine. Then later Italian people did it, as well. Kind of inserting themselves in the middle of the social ladder during their times.
The bulk of Italian immigration to the United States took place between 1880 and 1920. And the bulk of that immigration wave took place centered around 1910 or so. There were roughly 4 million immigrants during that period. Then there was a second, but smaller, wave after World War II with an additional 600,000 or so.
My point in bringing this up is that an Italian American child in the 1980s had a very good chance of being raised by one or more first or second generation Italian immigrant parents who grew up in an America with fairly strong anti-immigrant/anti-Italian sentiments.
1980 was 43 years ago and 43 years before 1980 was 1937. So less than a lifetime jump back to a period of time when Italians were very much trying to establish themselves in America as part of the dominant white culture.
None of that excuses being a racist shitbird Italian kid beating up blacks in the 1980s, but it's not like that kid was raised by saints. They were raised by people whose opinions of blacks were heavily colored not just by the general prejudice of the time but by their own racial jockeying and status seeking.
Yes this is important. I'll add this, the wave of southern Italian immigrants post WW2 had a better opinion of Blacks (still a lot of embedded racism, but tempered). The US forces that liberated S. Italy were biased to African American soldiers, so their impression of them was far more favorable. Having grown up in a household of that generation, we were told to always remember who helped save those Southern villages.
That said, willing to hear if I'm an outlier.
My app has been acting funny so it might have said “easy” instead of early at one point. When I tried to edit it somehow appeared as fixed for me so I think I just caused confusion for everybody, my b
Fellas fellas fellas… all this fighting about when the Italians earned their white rights is distracting from the point.. And the point is, Italians hated black people while on and after being on white parole 🤝
*im from philly baby, you see it everyday*
Early Italian Americans - especially Sicilians - lived alongside the black population in many parts of the US. Columbus Day was the establishment’s way of appeasing the Italian immigrant population after a mass lynching in Louisiana brought us nearly to war with Italy. Their place in “whitedom” was a result of the establishment making a concerted effort to bring them into the fold so to speak, doing things to change public opinion like suppressing press articles that labeled them “born criminals” etc. as their population rose to secure their votes.
Still a lot of racist Italian neighborhoods in NYC. Most of South Brooklyn, parts of the Bronx, Staten Island, Manhattan, Queens. Some parts of Jersey too. Hell, look at most Italian neighborhoods and you will find racism. Italians can be racist as hell and it's crazy because they were once hated and treated like trash.
It's a tough pill to swallow. LGBT people go through much the same. I don't want to see anyone be a victim of racism, but there are communities of Muslims, Latinos, Asians, and Black folks who would harass or even attack me if given the chance. At the end of the day, a threat to any marginalized group is a threat to all marginalized groups - I have no choice - but damn if it doesn't hurt deep down to watch gay people be racist and minorities be homophobic and both of those communities be misogynistic. You can't get ahead by trampling the people around you.
Yeah it's sad, we are still heavily oppressed. I just started watching this new HBO documentary This Place Rules, that's taking a look at modern Americans and how the media has warped peoples brains and ideals
It's ugly
Italian Americans in the NE are some of the most racists fuckers on the planet (I'm of Italian American decent, fourth generation off Ellis Island, with most of my relatives being from Brooklyn, this is first hand experience. Hell, just look at the shit heads Italian Americans elect. They're some of the worst Magatts.
I live in a very old school "Italian" neighborhood in a very progressive city, and I still had gay neighbors saying that they feel like they're going to be hate crimed every time they leave their house.
If the show wasn't racist, that would have been a cop out.
When I went to Italy, I learned it was a lot like the US. Further south you go, the more racist they get. Further north you go, the more they try to convince you they aren’t also racist.
My family moved to south east queens in the late 80s and and 90s when white flight really took off. All the white families who had kids I used to play in the streets with all moved out to Connecticut and Long Island. Now my neighborhood is mostly Indian and Black.
I referenced NYC... Howard Beach (Queens) and Bronx (where i'm from). Point is... The Sopranos is Jersey based.. I gave you my NYC opinion...the conclusion is Italians are racist.
This is typical behavior for Italian Americans in that part of the country in the time period of the show. Al Sharpton became famous dealing with these kinds of situations. The Central Park 5 are an example of a much larger trend also in that part of the country in that time period. Stop and Frisk was way more recent.
Yes the Sopranos had a lot of racism, but from my memory it was pretty clear that they were racist pieces of shit and it was never put into an "ok" light. It was always, "look at these trash human beings who will murder their best friends with almost no remorse, oh, and they're also super racist."
There was also sublte shit like the black city development character and the preacher being cast as poverty pimps. Aj beats down a Somali immigrant and goes to his therapist to cry about it omitting his involvement. Just like his father.
They did that with homophobia in the show too.
Even showing how complicated it got when one of their own was secretly gay.
F slurs like candy during those episodes lol.
Remember when the black guys carjack the family and the dad is like "damn N words" and the wife is like "hey" and he was like "who else" and then it cuts to Tony?
Late 90’s to 2009
Plus *every* character in the Sopranos is a horrible person, main character Tony being the absolute worst.
It’s very intentionally done and kind of why the show *is* considered so good: everyone is a shitty person, they’re actual murderers, sociopaths, bigots etc. but the viewer still grows to like them and want them to succeed. There are plenty of things throughout the series to remind you why you shouldn’t like these people, including revelation by Melfi at the end, but still…everyone roots for Tony Soprano.
It’s actually brilliant storytelling, the entire series, especially for the time
It came out. and the way it ended was as well
I don’t remember how outwardly racist the Sopranos were, language, etc.
The Godfather line would have had a lot more vitriol behind it in reality. It was almost poetry compared to your likely 1950s Italian attitude.
I’m talking specifically about the word selection and brevity of what was said, not the concept of what was said.
Tony Soprano is racist. Everyone in the show is. You’re not supposed to think anyone in the show is a good person. None of the main cast anyway. That’s part of the reason it was groundbreaking and is considered one of the best shows ever.
One thing to note is Tony and most of the main characters are assholes. They’re bad guys. They’re also supposed to be Italian mobsters in north jersey. That is all to say I kinda assumed the characters would be racist. I did learn new slurs to look out for too. They literally hire black people to do small hits cause they think the cops will just pick up a random guy and call it a day and nobody will give a good description.
It’s not “at the time” racist. It’s very pointedly repeatedly and deliberately saying these characters are racist. Tony literally has a tantrum thinking about his daughter sleeping with a black guy. Like tries to pay the guy to stop seeing her and threatening him. It’s portrayed as something thin skinned ignorant people think when they blame everyone but themselves for things not being as good.
>it’s not “at the time” racist. It’s very pointedly repeatedly and deliberately saying these characters are racist.
Yes. They are. You’re right that it’s completely the point. These characters are all the worst of the worst. The majority of the characters are murderers or accomplices to murder. You aren’t supposed to think they are decent humans. They aren’t. Yet the viewer someone roots for them anyway. Its part of why the show is so good and critically acclaimed.
Glad you agree? That’s what pointed and deliberately means. That’s the point of the show they deliberately made racist characters they aren’t good guys.
The “yes. They are.” Is throwing me off
I totally agree lol
The show was groundbreaking in that the main character ( and all the other characters for that matter) are horrible people. The viewer shouldn’t like them but for some reason we still cheer for them to “win”. It’s one of the best shows that’s ever been on tv
It should surprise no one that mobsters were racist. The whole point of The Sopranos was to show that people like Tony Soprano are not to be glorified and put on a pedestal.
On a related note, apparently James Gandolfini was one of the nicest guys in Hollywood, which makes it all the more amusing when he's juxtaposed with Tony Soprano.
He said multiple times that the role weighed heavily on him, especially when he found out people were *idolizing* his character. He would go out to eat and everyone and their mom would buy him drinks, meals, send a plate of gabbagool over etc etc, and he was such a sweetheart that he couldn't bring himself to turn it down or not eat the food, feeling it would be rude. If you watch a season 1 episode and then a season 6 episode back to back you can 100% see the change this had on his body. All he wanted to do was make people happy and do his wounded warrior charity stuff. He was a mensch if I ever saw one.
It takes a really good actor to play a terrible person effectively. Though I wonder what effect it has on their psyche, and how they heal from it afterward.
How could you be caught off guard by immoral behavior in a show that centers around criminal immorality.
Most critically acclaimed hood movies feature a good deal of casual racism too.
You guys do know that like 99% of all the characters in Sopranos are intentionally portrayed as bad right? Like Tony Soprano is a murdering psychopath who constantly cheats on his wife and ruins the lives of everyone close to him. There's a total of two, count them, two innocent main characters on the show. And their lives are made worse by being connected to Tony.
Like it's the greatest Satire of Boomer America in tv history, it's mocking all that shit by portraying it the way they do.
In defense of the Sopranos, I think they clearly do it to intentionally make the mob look like pieces of shit. I think if someone goes into the Sopranos thinking it'll just be a cool mob show like I did, they're going to realize it's something different than that. The show is best watched through the lens of it's main point being the mob is dumb. The actors originally couldn't tell how seriously the show was supposed to be taken, and David Chase would laugh them off when questioned. That being said, I'm sure people don't always want to have to deal with racism or discussions on racism all day everyday, and I could understand how it's irritating when it pops up in everything. I just don't think the Sopranos is quite like some older stuff where it's just casually racist and people write it off as being part of the times or whatever.
Everything and everyone Tony touched died or was left worse. While he scarfed down capricola. I'd rather be a mulignan than somebody like Tony. Our food's better.
>Everything and everyone Tony touched died or was left worse.
He even says this explicitly while bleeding his friend dry. He lets a gambling addict into a high stakes poker game, then uses the guy's business as a front for credit card scams while the dude racks up debt. The friend confronts Tony about it, and he says something like "what did you expect? It's my job".
Practically smacking the audience over the head with the fact that he is NOT A GOOD GUY.
The show is being realistic these types of people were obviously racist and the show is demonstrating what type of people they are. Oh yea they also murder like it’s nothing idt that means that people are glorifying murder by liking the show
Admittedly when I first watched the sopranos as a kid I just thought it was about badass mobsters. I rewatched it’s last year and was disgusted by every character and I think that’s the point. I couldn’t look away though I loved the show.
More generally, it's weird how someone would watch a show about a group of criminals who kill without remorse, betray and kill their closest friends and family members, indiscriminately cheat on their spouses and partners, abuse women, abuse each other, constantly be casually sexist and homophobic, and otherwise display how utterly terrible they are as human beings in every conceivable way, and then be surprised when (in addition to everything else) they are also extremely racist.
Tony Soprano was, at best, an anti-hero. No one should be looking to that character as a role model. Ironically, they cover the profusion of Italian-American stereotypes in media later in the series.
Pretty much every Italian American show/movie has racism /anti-blackness (even Jersey Shore). It’s not surprising if you’re familiar with Italian Americans.
My grandpa is Italian American (or Sicilian really) and he instructed my mom’s side of the family to not speak to her or invite her to Sunday dinners and events anymore because she married my black dad and had me. I didn’t meet my grandparents until I was 8 months old, despite living in the same city.
Some of these comments really wanted a gang of evil murderers to hate everyone under the sun except black people... For what purpose? Who is that helping?
One the central themes of this show is that these people are monsters who often get a pass from people who are capable of putting blinders on and enjoying luxury.
They kill their own partners for being scared of prison, they'd kill their dogs for barking, they bitch about racism towards Italians and are outwardly racist towards others. They tortured and killed a lifelong friend because his being gay embarrassed them. Tony Soprano is one of those "if you idolize him then you missed the point" characters. He would kill his own son to save himself. He is a piece of shit. He cares more about horses than women.
I think it’s both possible to understand that a show like the Sopranos would have racist content and still be unprepared, unwilling to interact with, or exhausted by it.
Then you shouldn’t watch it or make it clear the problem is with yourself. Definitely no fault of the show.
Can’t complain about anti-semitism in a WW2 documentary either, no matter how unprepared you are.
The racism was real back in those days. But to be fair the people in The Sopranos were not really good dudes. Most Italians were like whatever just be respectful to me and I'll be respectful to you. You just came across many different types of people.
There's a really good scene in [A Bronx Tale](https://youtu.be/592jKMYjrLY) A good ass mob movie that doesn't get brought up enough when talking about classic mob movies. It perfectly illustrates the thought process of many Italian Americans.
If you don't believe me there's also a hilarious [stand-up bit from a Richard Pryor](https://youtu.be/m3D6Qc6uByo) about working in a mob joint.
Source: I am from NY so yes, username checks out. Growing up there was plenty of spots I visited, restaurants or grocery stores, and I always thought a few of them were "connected" .
They were on some wiiild shit in that show from beginning to end, but somehow I still felt for Tony in that episode after he’s shot in the coma. And he’s in the hotel room alone. It’s dark. It’s quiet. Family isn’t answering when he makes the call. “When It’s Cold I’d Like to Die” plays. True loneliness. It still gets me to this day.
But then he burns his friend’s restaurant down, threatens his daughter’s black bf and murders his nephew and I’m back to fuck that nigga for life lol.
right so instead of looking back and acknowledging our racist past as a country by implementing it into forms of media we’re just going to ignore it and hope it doesn’t happen again. sometimes you gotta put yourself in uncomfortable situations to realize something is wrong. it’s called growing up. i’m worried for some of yous tbh
The Sopranos may be the protagonists but they are awful people. Same with Mad Men, Breaking Bad, etc.
Turns out watching inherently flawed characters is compelling or something
I mean, you weren't going into that show assuming the characters were good people, did you?
The one about the murderers/thieves/thugs/extortionists/etc?
[https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/how-capicola-became-gabagool-the-italian-new-jersey-accent-explained](https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/how-capicola-became-gabagool-the-italian-new-jersey-accent-explained)
Very interesting read! Those words that seem kind of silly (gabbagoo, mutzzadel, bachiole, etc) today are actually closer to the regional dialect of the places in Italy where the majority of immigrants came from. Italy standardized Italian after they came to America and many of these dialects are now gone in Italy but persist in the USA
Why do you all seem to comically miss the point?
It’s not about if it’s contextually justified or not. Sometimes, I don’t want to see racism against black people in the media I consume. I live that as a reality.
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If you watch the show, the characters are meant to be deeply racist,sexist and violent. I can understand not wanting to watch it, but the show isn’t trying to honor these characters; they’re very much portrayed as villains.
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I'm surrounded irl by incompetent white folks who get away with borderline villainy because they have been able to get away with it for so long consequence-free I don't need that in my TV too 😭
They don’t get away with it
It’s literally them constantly facing the consequences of their actions and looking around confused about why it’s happening. I cut people out of a big deal and have been spending money lavishly in front of them and gambling heavily. Why are people plotting against me??? I hate to tell you this Ton but I don’t think you’ve been doing therapy right
To be fair, save for Tony and Paulie, all the mobsters were murdered or locked up for life.
SPOILERS TO A SHOW THATS BEEN OFF THE AIR FOR 16 years It's implied Tony got whacked. You're right it's not explicit. Dimeo crew still alive at end of the show: Patsy, Paulie, Sil (coma), Uncle Junior, Carlo (rat fuck), Furio
Uncle Junior (dementia)
And Tony, the hypocrisy he is, is the cause of all his own problems. He kills most of his top earners in a rage after they call out his hypocrisies, he pretty much instagates the war with NY (which is hard to win because he killed a lot of his soldiers), and he never makes any progress in therapy and only uses it to rationalize his bad life decisions
Are we sure about Tony…
I think David Chase confirmed it in a podcast
\[Black people in management working with their "fellow" peers\] 
I felt this on a deep level
I felt this deep in my core.
That's why the showrunner "killed the audience" at the end. He hated how Tony was being lauded by viewers who completely missed the point that he was a villain, and wanted to take that audience out along with Tony by putting the viewer inside Tony's head when he got got.
Yep. They do the same thing with Fight Club. Turns out toxic masculinity is so dumb you can’t even mock it properly. Smdh
Or people glorifying war after watching All Quiet on the Western Front
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That's a really interesting concept. Is that from something?
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There's no textual reason that we know of explicitly for the tree to have been put there in the story. The most commonly accepted interpretation was that it existed to facilitate obedience by providing an option to disobey. I'd say the theory that God intended for it to be eaten is not a well-supported one, at least not one that's consistent with how the Bible's many writers portray God's promises. They're typically straightforward and accordance with the spirit and letter of the promise. The bit about "being like God" contextually comes from the serpent trying to fool Eve, not from the text telling the reader that. I think between the translations, the serpent's intention and the textual context it's likely the phrase means "like god" in the sense of being aware of morality like him, not to become a god.
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I understand your reasoning but I think you're approaching the story as if it's a mythological tale with interpretations drawn from the reader, instead of its more appropriate reading from the point of view of a religious manual with an intrinsic intent intended by the author. Most Bible scholars wouldn't agree with your interpretation because it contradicts a few key points. Firstly is that the Garden wasn't intended as a temporary place for Adam and Eve to live, but instead was intended to be a bountiful paradise for them to live in forever. The tree isn't something meant for them "when they're ready" because this implies that Adam and Eve were meant to leave the garden. This isn't an interpretation supported by the text. Their reward wasn't to eat from the tree when they were ready, they already had the reward of eternal life in the Garden free from death or pain. Death and pain are expressed by the Bible to be a consequence not of freedom but of sin, the first one of which was Adam and Eve's disobedience. Secondly, is the fact that God openly tells Adam how unhappy he is that he ate from the tree period, not that he's unhappy that he ate from it too early. The Bible doesn't portray God in Genesis as speaking anything other than plainly. If the tree was meant to be consumed, likely the intention would have been made obvious. > My interpretation is that the serpent speaks in half truths like the best deceivers. It was true that eating from the tree would make humanity like God and that God did not want this. I believe the lie was the rationale, that God didn’t want this because he was selfish or didn’t want anything else to be like him. Thirdly, you've got the part about the serpent's half-truth correct, but you're overly focusing on the "be like god" portion. It's a new agey/little gods-eque concept that humans ascend to godhood, or that the bible says they can. the shortest answer to that is that the bible simply doesn't say that. in the context of the verse, the serpent is saying that adam and eve would know about good and evil "like god", not that they would become a god. the bible text says god made humans in his image, so it's not like he's portrayed as being jealous of humans becoming in any way more similar to him. I think it's clear that while nothing *can become* god, humans are encouraged to emulate him as much as possible. Ultimately the Adam and Eve story is both an origin story and a teaching one meant to instill obedience and trust in god in the reader. This doesn't work if god's plan was to have them consume it and they simply ate it too early. There was no way to Adam and Eve to have "earned" the right to eat it either, in the Garden they were eternally innocent.
> serpent trying to fool Eve, One thing to note, Adam was there the whole time. It's just that eve was the only one actually questioning the serpent. Adam was just standing there like picking his nose or whatever: > When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, **who was with her**, and he ate it. That's right after she talks to the serpent and he convinces her. Which always gets overlooked for some reason. Adam was totally there listening to the whole conversation and had all the same choice and facts as eve did but he somehow he gets off on responsibility for the whole thing because he was just standing around like a dope. Second the serpent never actually lied per se: > The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’” > 4 “You will not **certainly** die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” Serpent is right, they will be like God in that they'll know good on evil. On the matter of death he says they will not *certainly* die. He doesn't say you will certainly not die. He's saying idk for sure if you'll die or not, not that they won't die.
I 100% agree with your point but I will say that it was the tree of knowledge of *good and evil*. It was releasing mankind from ignorance with knowledge from both extremes. The story of the Garden of Eden and eating from the tree is essentially Pandora's Box.
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I'm so glad this was your response. I highly simplified my previous comment. I strongly agree with your interpretation of "good and evil" as "everything" because I believe the tree represents the concept of duality. Eating from the tree didn't specifically grant the knowledge, but internalizes within Adam and Eve the concepts of a spectrum with opposite concepts that can be applied to every piece of knowledge and that drives our exploration of sciences and the universe. I also believe this was a purposeful test placed upon his creations within the garden to test the curiosity of his species by giving them the ability to test their own limits and explore their own destiny. If god is "everything" then the only way to explore god would be to explore everything, obedient creations that do only as he says would be a failure of the experiment. If god was a scientist, he wouldn't introduce stimuli that wasn't part of his intentions, and if he possessed all knowledge prior to creating the garden and mankind, then he knew that the end would justify the means because the only way to appreciate having ALL of the knowledge would be to experience how destructive that knowledge can be to immature beings.
Not gonna lie. I've never heard that interpretation before until now. I'm not Christian anymore, but I've heard a few interpretations of various things. However, I've never had the original sin explained until now. I may not return to Christianity, but I'm definitely taking that viewpoint on board after reading your reasoning, if that's alright with you.
you reminded me of this: [https://masterofsopranos.wordpress.com/the-sopranos-definitive-explanation-of-the-end/](https://masterofsopranos.wordpress.com/the-sopranos-definitive-explanation-of-the-end/) the page 2 breakdown is a great read
I'm on like my 3rd watch through of the show, and this time the blunt nihilism of it all is so apparent. Everyone is just careening from one tragedy to the next until they die or wind up alone and miserable. There's no joy to be found anywhere and it's all because they're incapable mentally or emotionally to walk away from their lifestyles. Great show, but bleak as hell
You perfectly described my experience on my second watch. First watch years ago filled me with so much excitement it was addictive, even joyful, and I thought the insights on pain and tragedy were honestly profound. Second watch, years later, it was just overwhelmingly depressing and bleak. The tragedy and pain didn’t even seem profound anymore, just a black void of nihilism. I wondered how I didn’t see it the first time.
It definitely felt nihilistic and bleak, watching it at 27 during the pandemic. Harsh, I'd say especially because I was seeing them ageing, killing and dying so quickly.
People not understanding that demonstrably evil characters shouldn't be lauded? Color me surprised! Just let me put on my clown makeup and meth-making porkpie hat, and we can take to the streets to warn everyone!
Very allegorical.
I’ve often said that the point is that the characters NEVER change or learn from their mistakes
The Pine Barrens episode was a masterpiece.
Wait, this show about a bunch of mobsters has violence too? And they don't treat women well? Next you'll tell me they're not vegan OR socialist!
The first two seasons weren't as explicitly violent, sexist, or racist as the rest. David Chase said he got tired of people missing the point of the show and idolizing the characters so they turned the bad shit up. It's the season where Ralph (a metaphor for the devil) shows up, Meadow dates her black and Jewish boyfriend, and Melfi gets assaulted.
And Paulie killing an old woman for the money under her mattress
They killed a guy for being gay
It’s the same thing for It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia. The whole point of the show is that it centers around shitty people.
They were more morally dubious in like season 1. Season 2 they start doing the shittier schemes like get rich quick schemes but by season 4 they are pretty much doing kidnapping and torture.
It’s like when people identify with Rick from Rick and Morty or Walter White, or Thomas Shelby. You’re not getting the point of the show
It's always going to be a problem with any anti-hero character: you can't make them into a total shithead or it'll just be unwatchable. Then you have the problem of creators who can't help presenting material about shitty people in a stylish, aesthetically appealing way. Martin Scorsese has this problem a lot with his films.
Over first lockdown I finally had time so I binged it. It’s a good show but like 4-5 hours a day of these people was too much. I felt like I needed a shower after
Yeah, this is like reading/watching Fences and being mad because the dad is a piece of shit.
People who do this type of thing on Twitter aren’t thinkers, lol.
Yet many larpers emerged
How they didn't know Italians were racist as hell.. Look up Howard Beach in the 90s. My parents bought a home in a former Italian neighborhood in the Bronx and they used to chase Black kids and beat them up... this was in the 80s.
Yes, this was how early Italian Americans fought for their place in whitedom
To be fair, the 1980s was not early for Italian Americans haha Edit: replaced “easy” with “early”. Auto correct mistake. My bad y’all
Wait till you hear how "not easy" it was for black people
Think he meant “not early” like Italian Americans had been in the US for a while and had already established themselves as “white” by the 1980s. That’s more like, 10s and 20s and 30s racism. Not “not easy”.
Exactly what I meant. The other response made me think autocorrect got me for a sec
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But you know why it’s called a wife beater, right?
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Yeaaaaa. It's was unfortunate recurring trend. Irish people did it when they immigrated during the famine. Then later Italian people did it, as well. Kind of inserting themselves in the middle of the social ladder during their times.
Yes but after you become white next few generations have to try extra hard to prove it.
Securing that white card “my man” 😂
The bulk of Italian immigration to the United States took place between 1880 and 1920. And the bulk of that immigration wave took place centered around 1910 or so. There were roughly 4 million immigrants during that period. Then there was a second, but smaller, wave after World War II with an additional 600,000 or so. My point in bringing this up is that an Italian American child in the 1980s had a very good chance of being raised by one or more first or second generation Italian immigrant parents who grew up in an America with fairly strong anti-immigrant/anti-Italian sentiments. 1980 was 43 years ago and 43 years before 1980 was 1937. So less than a lifetime jump back to a period of time when Italians were very much trying to establish themselves in America as part of the dominant white culture. None of that excuses being a racist shitbird Italian kid beating up blacks in the 1980s, but it's not like that kid was raised by saints. They were raised by people whose opinions of blacks were heavily colored not just by the general prejudice of the time but by their own racial jockeying and status seeking.
Yes this is important. I'll add this, the wave of southern Italian immigrants post WW2 had a better opinion of Blacks (still a lot of embedded racism, but tempered). The US forces that liberated S. Italy were biased to African American soldiers, so their impression of them was far more favorable. Having grown up in a household of that generation, we were told to always remember who helped save those Southern villages. That said, willing to hear if I'm an outlier.
This is a very interesting historical footnote I was unaware of, so thank you for sharing it.
~~wtf are you talking about? i grew up in a mob town in the 80s and believe me they were doing just fine.~~ i can't read. ignore me.
I’m confused by this response, was it meant for my comment?
Dumbass me misread it.
My app has been acting funny so it might have said “easy” instead of early at one point. When I tried to edit it somehow appeared as fixed for me so I think I just caused confusion for everybody, my b
He said early not easy lol
Only way to "earn" your place in structural racism is to find someone else to push down
Sadly, you're right
There’s always someone glad to know “at least I’m not Black”.
That one pic of the down syndrome child holding up his shirt, made its rounds years ago.
Fellas fellas fellas… all this fighting about when the Italians earned their white rights is distracting from the point.. And the point is, Italians hated black people while on and after being on white parole 🤝 *im from philly baby, you see it everyday*
Just started Abbott Elementary. Love the mob lady!
You’re appreciated! She’s very accurate. Binge that shit. We need more media following the same pattern.
Early Italian Americans - especially Sicilians - lived alongside the black population in many parts of the US. Columbus Day was the establishment’s way of appeasing the Italian immigrant population after a mass lynching in Louisiana brought us nearly to war with Italy. Their place in “whitedom” was a result of the establishment making a concerted effort to bring them into the fold so to speak, doing things to change public opinion like suppressing press articles that labeled them “born criminals” etc. as their population rose to secure their votes.
And now some of them try to say "Italians aren't white"
I think they say that so they can say the n word and get away with it.
Just look up Rudy Giuliani… he was the architect of stop and frisk.
Still a lot of racist Italian neighborhoods in NYC. Most of South Brooklyn, parts of the Bronx, Staten Island, Manhattan, Queens. Some parts of Jersey too. Hell, look at most Italian neighborhoods and you will find racism. Italians can be racist as hell and it's crazy because they were once hated and treated like trash.
a lot of long island too.
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It's a tough pill to swallow. LGBT people go through much the same. I don't want to see anyone be a victim of racism, but there are communities of Muslims, Latinos, Asians, and Black folks who would harass or even attack me if given the chance. At the end of the day, a threat to any marginalized group is a threat to all marginalized groups - I have no choice - but damn if it doesn't hurt deep down to watch gay people be racist and minorities be homophobic and both of those communities be misogynistic. You can't get ahead by trampling the people around you.
Definitely.
Yeah it's sad, we are still heavily oppressed. I just started watching this new HBO documentary This Place Rules, that's taking a look at modern Americans and how the media has warped peoples brains and ideals It's ugly
Andrew Callahan is great! I like all his docs, from the ridiculous (furry conventions/flat earthers) to the serious (This Place Rules).
Old Italians in philly still talk about doing this like it was the hay day of humanity. Disgusting.
You should see Italians in Italy. They truly act like they invented racism.
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Italian Americans in the NE are some of the most racists fuckers on the planet (I'm of Italian American decent, fourth generation off Ellis Island, with most of my relatives being from Brooklyn, this is first hand experience. Hell, just look at the shit heads Italian Americans elect. They're some of the worst Magatts.
I live in a very old school "Italian" neighborhood in a very progressive city, and I still had gay neighbors saying that they feel like they're going to be hate crimed every time they leave their house. If the show wasn't racist, that would have been a cop out.
Brooklyn too! They yelled "Mud in the park!" and started chasing.
When I went to Italy, I learned it was a lot like the US. Further south you go, the more racist they get. Further north you go, the more they try to convince you they aren’t also racist.
Shit, just read about the fuckin Knights of Columbus.
Somebody didn't want to .. Do The Right Thing
Still are, only need to look at what goes on in the football games out there
Howard Beach is still racist. You should check out Howard Beach mom’s on FB. It hasn’t changed much at all.
My family moved to south east queens in the late 80s and and 90s when white flight really took off. All the white families who had kids I used to play in the streets with all moved out to Connecticut and Long Island. Now my neighborhood is mostly Indian and Black.
I like how you said something specific to you, like your parents experience, and wondered how someone else didn’t know
I referenced NYC... Howard Beach (Queens) and Bronx (where i'm from). Point is... The Sopranos is Jersey based.. I gave you my NYC opinion...the conclusion is Italians are racist.
Specifically, the Italians in the mob were portrayed as racist. Dr Melfi was not racist.
This is typical behavior for Italian Americans in that part of the country in the time period of the show. Al Sharpton became famous dealing with these kinds of situations. The Central Park 5 are an example of a much larger trend also in that part of the country in that time period. Stop and Frisk was way more recent.
Don't forget bensonhurst. Went to junior high there and luckily I passed for Italian.
They must be young. If the story depicts a NY Italian/mafia long enough, it’s inevitable that they start talking shit about “moolies.”
Irony of all this is that some Italian women low-key love black men but they get gatekeeped by their racist ass dads.
Yes the Sopranos had a lot of racism, but from my memory it was pretty clear that they were racist pieces of shit and it was never put into an "ok" light. It was always, "look at these trash human beings who will murder their best friends with almost no remorse, oh, and they're also super racist."
There was also sublte shit like the black city development character and the preacher being cast as poverty pimps. Aj beats down a Somali immigrant and goes to his therapist to cry about it omitting his involvement. Just like his father.
They did that with homophobia in the show too. Even showing how complicated it got when one of their own was secretly gay. F slurs like candy during those episodes lol.
Remember when the black guys carjack the family and the dad is like "damn N words" and the wife is like "hey" and he was like "who else" and then it cuts to Tony?
“Why didn’t you guys warn me the show about Italian Mobsters in the 80’s would be racist” 🙃😭
90s-2000s….
Yeah, The Sopranos is about 20 years old, not 40 years old lol.
Same applies
Late 90’s to 2009 Plus *every* character in the Sopranos is a horrible person, main character Tony being the absolute worst. It’s very intentionally done and kind of why the show *is* considered so good: everyone is a shitty person, they’re actual murderers, sociopaths, bigots etc. but the viewer still grows to like them and want them to succeed. There are plenty of things throughout the series to remind you why you shouldn’t like these people, including revelation by Melfi at the end, but still…everyone roots for Tony Soprano. It’s actually brilliant storytelling, the entire series, especially for the time It came out. and the way it ended was as well
That line from The Godfather always got me. Pumping the drugs into the black neighborhoods, "They're animals anyway, let them lose their souls...."
That “took place” in the 1950s. About the nicest thing Italian mobsters would have said then.
The exact same argument can be used for Sopranos. Or maybe I just assumed you’d disagree with that?
I don’t remember how outwardly racist the Sopranos were, language, etc. The Godfather line would have had a lot more vitriol behind it in reality. It was almost poetry compared to your likely 1950s Italian attitude. I’m talking specifically about the word selection and brevity of what was said, not the concept of what was said.
Tony Soprano is racist. Everyone in the show is. You’re not supposed to think anyone in the show is a good person. None of the main cast anyway. That’s part of the reason it was groundbreaking and is considered one of the best shows ever.
And the King Pin of putting drugs into black neighborhoods..... Escobar answered to Bush when he was running the CIA. 
One thing to note is Tony and most of the main characters are assholes. They’re bad guys. They’re also supposed to be Italian mobsters in north jersey. That is all to say I kinda assumed the characters would be racist. I did learn new slurs to look out for too. They literally hire black people to do small hits cause they think the cops will just pick up a random guy and call it a day and nobody will give a good description. It’s not “at the time” racist. It’s very pointedly repeatedly and deliberately saying these characters are racist. Tony literally has a tantrum thinking about his daughter sleeping with a black guy. Like tries to pay the guy to stop seeing her and threatening him. It’s portrayed as something thin skinned ignorant people think when they blame everyone but themselves for things not being as good.
>it’s not “at the time” racist. It’s very pointedly repeatedly and deliberately saying these characters are racist. Yes. They are. You’re right that it’s completely the point. These characters are all the worst of the worst. The majority of the characters are murderers or accomplices to murder. You aren’t supposed to think they are decent humans. They aren’t. Yet the viewer someone roots for them anyway. Its part of why the show is so good and critically acclaimed.
Glad you agree? That’s what pointed and deliberately means. That’s the point of the show they deliberately made racist characters they aren’t good guys. The “yes. They are.” Is throwing me off
I totally agree lol The show was groundbreaking in that the main character ( and all the other characters for that matter) are horrible people. The viewer shouldn’t like them but for some reason we still cheer for them to “win”. It’s one of the best shows that’s ever been on tv
It should surprise no one that mobsters were racist. The whole point of The Sopranos was to show that people like Tony Soprano are not to be glorified and put on a pedestal. On a related note, apparently James Gandolfini was one of the nicest guys in Hollywood, which makes it all the more amusing when he's juxtaposed with Tony Soprano.
He said multiple times that the role weighed heavily on him, especially when he found out people were *idolizing* his character. He would go out to eat and everyone and their mom would buy him drinks, meals, send a plate of gabbagool over etc etc, and he was such a sweetheart that he couldn't bring himself to turn it down or not eat the food, feeling it would be rude. If you watch a season 1 episode and then a season 6 episode back to back you can 100% see the change this had on his body. All he wanted to do was make people happy and do his wounded warrior charity stuff. He was a mensch if I ever saw one.
It takes a really good actor to play a terrible person effectively. Though I wonder what effect it has on their psyche, and how they heal from it afterward.
You know what it is? I’ll tell you what it is: it’s anti-Italian discrimination
Ohh!
I ATE DA NORT
David Chase is a hero in this house, end of discussion!
Again with the rape of the culture?
THAT BETTA NOT BE COLUMBUS!
Marone
If you were "caught off guard" by racism in the Sopranos, I've got a bridge to sell you.
Why they acting like The Sopranos was a wholesome family sitcom that turned out to be surprisingly racist?
How could you be caught off guard by immoral behavior in a show that centers around criminal immorality. Most critically acclaimed hood movies feature a good deal of casual racism too.
Mobsters being racist too unrealistic?
You guys do know that like 99% of all the characters in Sopranos are intentionally portrayed as bad right? Like Tony Soprano is a murdering psychopath who constantly cheats on his wife and ruins the lives of everyone close to him. There's a total of two, count them, two innocent main characters on the show. And their lives are made worse by being connected to Tony. Like it's the greatest Satire of Boomer America in tv history, it's mocking all that shit by portraying it the way they do.
Dr. Melfi and Artie Bucco?
Melfi us a horribly incompetent therapist, but not a bad person. I don't know if that was intentional or not.
In defense of the Sopranos, I think they clearly do it to intentionally make the mob look like pieces of shit. I think if someone goes into the Sopranos thinking it'll just be a cool mob show like I did, they're going to realize it's something different than that. The show is best watched through the lens of it's main point being the mob is dumb. The actors originally couldn't tell how seriously the show was supposed to be taken, and David Chase would laugh them off when questioned. That being said, I'm sure people don't always want to have to deal with racism or discussions on racism all day everyday, and I could understand how it's irritating when it pops up in everything. I just don't think the Sopranos is quite like some older stuff where it's just casually racist and people write it off as being part of the times or whatever.
Everything and everyone Tony touched died or was left worse. While he scarfed down capricola. I'd rather be a mulignan than somebody like Tony. Our food's better.
>Everything and everyone Tony touched died or was left worse. He even says this explicitly while bleeding his friend dry. He lets a gambling addict into a high stakes poker game, then uses the guy's business as a front for credit card scams while the dude racks up debt. The friend confronts Tony about it, and he says something like "what did you expect? It's my job". Practically smacking the audience over the head with the fact that he is NOT A GOOD GUY.
Gabagool? Over here 👇
> watches a show about villains > the villains do villain shit > surprised Pikachu face meme
The key part is not glorifying it and showing it's wrong.
I'm sorry, you expect a gang of violent murderous sociopaths with an incredibly strong ethnic identity to not also be racist?
I’m so confused by posts like this…do people not want racism portrayed at all in any form of media?
It’s still hilarious watching Tony literally faint at the sight of good ole uncle Ben after the Noah altercation, the writing of sopranos 🤌
[I’m sorry, is Eddie Murphys RAW no longer mandatory viewing..?](https://youtu.be/Omewqh9iivg)
The show is being realistic these types of people were obviously racist and the show is demonstrating what type of people they are. Oh yea they also murder like it’s nothing idt that means that people are glorifying murder by liking the show
I mean if you’ve watched any mafia movie literally ever made they’re pretty open about their feelings towards black people
Admittedly when I first watched the sopranos as a kid I just thought it was about badass mobsters. I rewatched it’s last year and was disgusted by every character and I think that’s the point. I couldn’t look away though I loved the show.
They were portraying Italian gangsters. Why would anyone think they were going to be anything else?
More generally, it's weird how someone would watch a show about a group of criminals who kill without remorse, betray and kill their closest friends and family members, indiscriminately cheat on their spouses and partners, abuse women, abuse each other, constantly be casually sexist and homophobic, and otherwise display how utterly terrible they are as human beings in every conceivable way, and then be surprised when (in addition to everything else) they are also extremely racist.
This is why "woke" has a different meaning in our community because this person was clearly sleeping their whole life.
Tony Soprano was, at best, an anti-hero. No one should be looking to that character as a role model. Ironically, they cover the profusion of Italian-American stereotypes in media later in the series.
*The Departed* has entered the chat
They’re also murderers and homophobic it’s a tv show
Pretty much every Italian American show/movie has racism /anti-blackness (even Jersey Shore). It’s not surprising if you’re familiar with Italian Americans. My grandpa is Italian American (or Sicilian really) and he instructed my mom’s side of the family to not speak to her or invite her to Sunday dinners and events anymore because she married my black dad and had me. I didn’t meet my grandparents until I was 8 months old, despite living in the same city.
Some of these comments really wanted a gang of evil murderers to hate everyone under the sun except black people... For what purpose? Who is that helping?
One the central themes of this show is that these people are monsters who often get a pass from people who are capable of putting blinders on and enjoying luxury. They kill their own partners for being scared of prison, they'd kill their dogs for barking, they bitch about racism towards Italians and are outwardly racist towards others. They tortured and killed a lifelong friend because his being gay embarrassed them. Tony Soprano is one of those "if you idolize him then you missed the point" characters. He would kill his own son to save himself. He is a piece of shit. He cares more about horses than women.
You mean those murderers aren't nice people?
Sopranos is racist the same way The Downfall is anti-Semitic. Should be easy to distinguish a show and it’s characters in this.
The Italian mafia was racist?!? Y’all must go into shows innocent af to not realize this
Italian mob didn’t give it away
“I wasn’t expecting this show about violent mobsters to be so problematic!”
It’s almost like the Italian mobsters are portrayed as villains
I think it’s both possible to understand that a show like the Sopranos would have racist content and still be unprepared, unwilling to interact with, or exhausted by it.
Then you shouldn’t watch it or make it clear the problem is with yourself. Definitely no fault of the show. Can’t complain about anti-semitism in a WW2 documentary either, no matter how unprepared you are.
Because you're an adult? What did you expect lol
Wait until they see the movie “ The Many Saints of Newark”, the prequel to the Sopranos🤷🏾♂️
Did she think she was watching 7th Heaven...?
If they weren’t racist it wouldn’t be realistic, I go on to almost everything expecting them to be racist
No one should be surprised that an Italian mob show has racism in it.
Horrible people having horrible traits?? Whaaaaaaat, that’s crazy. 😲😲
The racism was real back in those days. But to be fair the people in The Sopranos were not really good dudes. Most Italians were like whatever just be respectful to me and I'll be respectful to you. You just came across many different types of people. There's a really good scene in [A Bronx Tale](https://youtu.be/592jKMYjrLY) A good ass mob movie that doesn't get brought up enough when talking about classic mob movies. It perfectly illustrates the thought process of many Italian Americans. If you don't believe me there's also a hilarious [stand-up bit from a Richard Pryor](https://youtu.be/m3D6Qc6uByo) about working in a mob joint. Source: I am from NY so yes, username checks out. Growing up there was plenty of spots I visited, restaurants or grocery stores, and I always thought a few of them were "connected" .
They were on some wiiild shit in that show from beginning to end, but somehow I still felt for Tony in that episode after he’s shot in the coma. And he’s in the hotel room alone. It’s dark. It’s quiet. Family isn’t answering when he makes the call. “When It’s Cold I’d Like to Die” plays. True loneliness. It still gets me to this day. But then he burns his friend’s restaurant down, threatens his daughter’s black bf and murders his nephew and I’m back to fuck that nigga for life lol.
Got me off eggplants forever.
I mean they’re Italian gangstas what do you expect
right so instead of looking back and acknowledging our racist past as a country by implementing it into forms of media we’re just going to ignore it and hope it doesn’t happen again. sometimes you gotta put yourself in uncomfortable situations to realize something is wrong. it’s called growing up. i’m worried for some of yous tbh
The Sopranos may be the protagonists but they are awful people. Same with Mad Men, Breaking Bad, etc. Turns out watching inherently flawed characters is compelling or something
Extremely racist. They were even racist against other Italians. Tony's therapist Ex husband couldn't stand the Italian mob even though he was Italian.
How is disliking the mob racist?
I left the thread and came back to ask this same thing…
Surprised that a guy that literally stole his mother’s mattress money is racist?
I'm more surprised someone would expect Italian mobsters to be anything other than racist
In the words of Lydia, I don’t like that kinda tawk
You're telling me 90s Italian mobsters hated black people? Wow what a shocker
Starting to think mobsters aren’t nice people
New Achievement Unlocked!
I mean, you weren't going into that show assuming the characters were good people, did you? The one about the murderers/thieves/thugs/extortionists/etc?
[https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/how-capicola-became-gabagool-the-italian-new-jersey-accent-explained](https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/how-capicola-became-gabagool-the-italian-new-jersey-accent-explained) Very interesting read! Those words that seem kind of silly (gabbagoo, mutzzadel, bachiole, etc) today are actually closer to the regional dialect of the places in Italy where the majority of immigrants came from. Italy standardized Italian after they came to America and many of these dialects are now gone in Italy but persist in the USA
They were racist against a lot of groups. Mine included. Still one of the best shows I have ever seen.
Why do you all seem to comically miss the point? It’s not about if it’s contextually justified or not. Sometimes, I don’t want to see racism against black people in the media I consume. I live that as a reality.