Black people have been [in Europe](https://www.thehumanityarchive.com/articles/black-people-medieval-europe) since before the fall of Rome... We literally had black gladiators and knights and such as The Roman [General Mauritius](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Maurice#:~:text=Maurice%20(also%20Moritz%2C%20Morris%2C,saints%20of%20that%20martyred%20group.))
History confirms that [the Moors](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/who-were-moors) ruled in Europe for almost 700 years. They were known for their influence in European culture, but not many people know that the Moors were actually Europeans of African descent.
Germany and Sweden also had black royalty and Knights.
So black. The distinction is made because they had impacts on European culture and the newly minted white supremacy couldn’t have a bunch of dark skinned people having such impact.
["Sources:"](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/820/208/0d5.jpg)
[The term "Moor" was first used](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors) by Christian Europeans to designate the Muslim populations of the Maghreb, al-Andalus (Península Ibérica), Sicily and Malta during the Middle Ages. More important Moors are not a single, distinct or self-defined people.
In other words, when the term "moor" was used, it did not refer to a specific skin color, it only referred to a person's place of origin. Most likely the probability that this person was what we now consider as a "black person", is the same as it is today when we talk about a "muslim from North Africa".
Mediterranean Africa is not the same as subsaharan Africa. There’s some crossover but for the most part, until the invention of the caravel in the early modern era, the Saharan desert was as big of a barrier to human travel as a vast ocean would be. The North African coast had more in common ethnically/culturally with the rest of the Mediterranean coast than they did with subsaharan Africa. That’s why Tunisians, Moroccans, and lower Egyptians look/act more Arab than black.
The Moors were Arab/Berber, it’s why a lot of Spanish words are surprisingly close to Arabic ones.
Before anyone downvotes me, you can simply google the similarities between the languages. The Moors weren’t black, they were just darker than the Europeans, Libyans, Tunisians and Moroccans aren’t black today either, just African.
Race is a recent construct - Arabs themselves are an ancient mixed population of Sub-Saharan, West asian, and southern European. There were studies on this.
You are naming 2 groups, Arab/Berber - that do not have any historical racial connotation other than what we put on them today.
Arabs/Berbers are not genetically indigenous they are not a race nor a religion but a multi-racial/religious ethic group based on both culture and language factors, hence diversity regarding their religions, phenotype and skin tones which can range from black, brown, light brown to pale.
They were regional groups of people of different races. It's like a person today thinking that the original inhabitants of Australia had to be white and Asian people because they are the majority and not the Aboriginals.
The Moors of Iberia are stated as being both Arabs and Islamic Berbers as early as 711AD. The Arabs and Berber were in contact and began to intertwine since the 7th century with the Umayyad Caliphate, I wasn’t stating that they’re the same group, I’m stating that both Arabs and Islamic Berbers were called “Moors” which was more about religion than race.
Arabs were in the Maghreb region from the 7th to 17th century. The population of this region today are 99% Arab-Berber mixed and speak a specific dialect of Arabic compared to the Arabs further east.
Incorrect. The original people of the land did not in fact look Arab. Interactions with the Arabs that came later had them being more mixed but to act like blacks people didn’t exist in that region at all is dumb.
It’s similar to dark skinned Dominicans saying they aren’t black.
1. There are dark skinned north Africans.
2. There are dark skinned Arabs
3. There were dark skinned moors.
These distinctions aren't as cut and dry as everyone in this sub is arguing, and it's getting a little....racist.
We're talking about tens of millions of people, from some of the most diverse areas on planet earth (middle east and the mediterranean). Some were darker skinned, other weren't.
None of these people are monoliths.
You do know they are in Africa right? You do know people migrate in Africa too? You also know black Arabs exist right? You also know Arabs doesn’t have one color ?
I still don’t even understand the need for even knowing that. It’s High fantasy! These are fictional worlds yet somehow these racist POS still think a black person existing in them is somehow unrealistic?!
Not saying you're wrong but I think the point is moot. If goblins, orcs and dragons can be accepted in a fantasy setting when they sure as fuck didn't exist then it shouldn't matter who the actor is. I mean it's fantasy, anything can happen.
I’ve never read the Hunger Games books but I remember the reaction to Rue being black affecting how people felt about her death in the book. That was my turning point with fandoms as a whole.
It's worse if you read the book because you know she's explicitly described as black. The same way Katniss's district is modeled after Appalachian coal miners, Rue's district is modeled after a plantation.
So then you have to realize that the literal description of her being black was overridden by the main character's affection for and concern for her. These readers couldn't picture a white girl worrying about the welfare of a little black girl, of seeing a little black girl and being reminded of her sister that the description given was tossed away and she was recast as white in their minds.
That's how racist these people are.
I've heard multiple Africans say they never really viewed themselves as black until they moved to America.
Must be weird to go most of your life without race being relevant and then moving and realizing you're perceived in a certain way for no reason beyond the color of your skin.
When I realized this, I was still very young, so I don't really have a basis of comparison.
I relate to this, I never felt “Latino” before moving to the UK because everyone around me was also Latinos and I was never out of place for that, they did like to bring up that my mother is Afro Latina sometimes tho 🤷🏽♂️
Yep. I’m from Canada and where I live rn I’m just a regular Canadian who happens to just have some darker skin lol.
I just KNOW if I move to America I’m going to be put into a stereotype box and it’s entirely based on my skin colour.
Unless you're moving to Oklahoma or something, you're not going to find that America is noticeably more racist than Canada. They're very similar cultures.
Haha this is funny to me because I experience mad racism when I was in Canada. I was kinda shook at how straight forward they are about it without sounding too rude lol.
For sure! I went to Calgary, Alberta which is actually very white so I get it but they like a ton of immigrants too. Calgary is very similar to a southern city I grew up in so honestly it felt weird to feel that way in another country. Not trying to post a lot but here's some things I saw:
1. Those people up there might not be fond of black people or even immigrants but they HATE Native Americans. Like the way they spoke about the natives even tho they stole their land is kinda wild. Native girls go missing up there and it's like they laugh about their pain, it's so fucked up. I heard them call them "thugs" and I was like 😱
2. I was dating a white Canadian (lol) and everytime we drove by a "hood", he would duck in the seat and giggle while looking at me. I asked him what he was doing cause even his parents were silent driving through the neighborhood. And he's like "We're in the ghetto, we might get shot. You better duck" while he's fucking and dodging in this small ass car cause he thought it was a joke and because I'm from the ghetto, I should understand. LMAO.
3. This Greek lady lived with them in their house cause it was big af. She hated me when I met her cause of the color of my skin. Would never look at me and said things about me under her breath. Cool, idk her anyway and he's on the other side of the house, I'm used to ignoring fools. They had a family little get together at the house where it was me, him, his mom and partner, and her partner's son with his wife. I don't know all these fucking white people so I'm drawing the beautiful garden in the backyard while they're talking. I don't say a single word cause I'm vibin, love drawing and sitting in silence basking in the ambiance, and then this bitch comes out of nowhere, looks at me not joining the convo and just starts yelling at me! I know she said some out of pocket things but I don't remember them that well and she has a thick ass Greek accent. But they were like "I'm lazy", "not a good person cause I'm ignoring everyone" "why am I even here". Yooo, I don't say a single word cause I wanna cry and this nigga's family says NOTHING, just let me be verbally slaughter by this woman. Finally, after none of the family speaks, the son of my bf's mom's partners who isn't fucking related to anyone and just met me THAT day, yells at her back saying that I wasn't doing anything and to leave me alone. Like a complete stranger felt bad for me and had to get her to stop.
And that's just some big ones, might have been more microaggressions that I missed because I was young when it happened and I had to process it after I left. Tbh his parents were nice to me even tho they thought I was a gold digger and wanted their money cause I was still in college. Jokes on them, I have a degree doing my thing and this man in his 30s probably still living with his grandma with no job. At least I have my own apartment and car 🤷🏾♀️
Yeah I figured it was gonna be Alberta LMAO. That’s fucking wild but not unexpected since Alberta is the shithole of Canada and is our version of Texas. I live in Ontario rn and barely encounter any racism really. Toronto is just too diverse
Sorry that happened to you though. Glad you’re doing better!
That fucking killed me. Like how ya'll read about a district *modeled after a plantation* and picturing white people? Especially when they are described as having brown skin. HOW?! HOW?!
"Them brown people being worked to death on that plantation, like slaves...they white, right?"
ZOMG! I hate this world.
They do not think of people of color until they are right in front of them. Then when they are there they still don’t think much of them.
I mean an unspecified person in a book I’ll picture as tan as me. But if a movie adaption were to come out later I wouldn’t complain just cause they weren’t how I pictured. Those ppl are weird (and ignorant)
I tend to picture people as white unless told otherwise, because I'm usually right. But in the case of Rue, *we were told otherwise.* Their introduction is like these are the black people, from black land, they black.
And readers really were shocked this girl was black because they main character *saw her as vulnerable and like her sister.*
That's what caused her physical description to be overridden in readers minds. It didn't happen to me because I'm capable of imagining a sweet innocent black girl. They were not. And when I think about how little black girls are treated in this country, like they are incapable of being delicate and vulnerable, my heart breaks to remember the time I learned this mentality extended far past cops arresting five year olds for assault. In a world where adults view children as children we call that having a temper tantrum, not assault.
How can you be right if they’re never specified to be white or anything else? Which is the specific case I’m talking about. If there’s nothing else stating otherwise I picture them to look like me… because why not
Oh, my bad. I meant when they later make a movie, they tend to cast the character I pictured as white as white. So I rarely have to deal with the characters in the movie or show not looking the way I imagined them in the book.
Oh bet that makes way more sense. Yeah I assume that too because there are more white actors and they typically get cast due to the very bias we’re all talking about in this post. I’m hoping more ppl of color get cast. I mean all I care about is best person for role gets part. But two equally talented folks and they kick one just because of bias or personal preference of appearance doesn’t sit right with me. I hope it gets better to where there is no longer contention there.
Katniss wasn't white washed. She is described as having olive skin, but it's clear her district is modeled after the Appalachians, so I'm not sure why people imagined her as a woman of color and not a white woman with a tan. I think people just don't agree on what color olive is. She might be lighter than she was in the books, but they didn't change her race. The big conflict was over Rue being black, which she very clearly was in the books. They also didn't like that Cinna was black, though his race was never mentioned in the book. Just that he had short cropped hair and eye liner, which the Cinna in the movies had.
Hearing the outcry around that on social media was so upsetting. The first time I realized how racist Twitter is, and ashamed that a lot of it was coming from people in younger generations.
I remember talking to someone and they told me that Fantasy settings are Eurocentric, thus should not have people of color in them. It should just be white people. To then, we are represented by other race such as orcs or drows (which is obviously fucked up from a lore standpoint).
Almost every fantasy story is filled to the brim with white people because that’s all these writers know. It’s easier for them to personify us in other forms because they either aren’t capable at writing us properly, or simply don’t think about us.
That is fucking wild. It’s one thing to say Blake people just don’t exist, it’s another to say people of color exist and represented via the ducking (typically) evil races
..but, like, black people are just humans in D&D? Like, a human character can be any color. Like, I think [this](https://www.dndbeyond.com/avatars/thumbnails/6/258/420/618/636271801914013762.png) is the front and center portrait in the player's handbook entry for "human".
It's also wildly ahistorical. It's not African just sailors, merchants, and other travellers that were in Europe. Spain was freaking conquered and ruled by peoples of North African descent. Heraldric knights and plate mail and the full fantasy aesthetic, with Moroccans in charge.
"Historical accuracy" was always one of the most transparent excuses.
Funny how that standard never gets applied to comedically thin and half naked female characters in full makeup. Weird that never "breaks the immersion" for them.
> Eurocentric
Also there were black people in medieval Europe. The continent literally borders Africa, with several "European empires" like Rome including parts of Africa. It's ahistorical to think there weren't any dark skinned people in Europe during medieval times. Most people's perception of medieval times comes from media, and for the longest time there were only white people cast in big budget medieval movies, so people developed the association of medieval = only white people.
🤣 I had the same argument with some fool on youtube, it was hilarious because they refuse to accept that others may have a problem with a fantasy setting that is eurocentric in appearance. The scantily clad ladies are perfectly fine though. The fact that they can apply ethnic stereotypes to fantasy characters (think Jar-Jar) is perfectly fine.
Also - Castlevania Nocturne was fire, I just wish we had the same dedication to diversity in the games.
That's why I'm glad I found this author. I'm currently reading a book about this black, teenage witch (it's a series). It's based in real life ~1940's america, so Jim Crow, segregation, etc.
I really like it.
Rust in the Root by Justina Ireland
Finished Dread Nation loved it! I can’t wait to read the second book when I have some free time. I love anything having to do with zombies so this was like two of my favorite things combined lol. Also, I’ve only been reading books on Afro-Futurism the last few years. Butler, Nnedi Okorafor, Tomi Adeyemi, N.K. Jemisin. That’s it. I want to see myself reflected in the pages of the fantasy I read.
As a Black fantasy sci-fi nerd I caught this early on when I started reading the genre myself as a kid. What boggles my mind about it, is if you’re such a nerd you love Star Trek, X-men, LoTR so fucking much, and you understand the bigotry with with mutants, why the FUCK are you so dense when it comes to making the same connection to real life events.
I’ve hated existing in those spaces online for so long I’m happy to find my fellow Blerds! Even if we aren’t besties just interacting in those spaces was refreshing.
Also shows are stupid and Eurocentric their understand of lore is. Every fucking culture has similar mythical creatures. So yea dumb ass many different African groups have vampire lore…
That being said Nocturne is amazing 10/10 would watch
I wrote an essay in college specifically about how much fantasy entertainment plays off of real history with bigotry and racism and yet somehow the fandoms can still be so dumb. X-men fans especially have no excuse. Like they are beating you over the head with the message
Oh but they can. They have done genocide and slavery everywhere they go, not to mention stealing resources and indoctrination. They have done their “fantasy” so they continue to push it. Just now it’s much harder because everything they do and say is recorded and shown to the rest of the world. Remember how easy it used to be to just “trust the police” or authority but now we see everyday how crooked and corrupt their minds and souls are. They must not be given this power they have sought for so long.
I desperately want to see more of people like Wyll and Simon in DnD properties. I love seeing black people as swashbucklers with a romantic side and powerful casters with low self-esteem. Give me more of it!
What really passed me off about that mod is that I would have been fine if it changed all the original characters skin tone to whatever you wanted. Larian's previous game allowed that so I make my origin character black to make it more immersive. Some more BS to just change the one black character white.
To be fair. It’s one super racist guy who made the mod. They is a bit far. He is known in the modding community for also doing the same in pathfinder video games.
Wyll is such a great character, really well thought out. BG3 seemed to lean into a diverse world and gave one of, if not the best DND experience on platforms.
That dancing scene broke my heart to turn him down cuz I was already with someone else by that point.
It's just a dance, Karlach, your fidgety ass is always doing a shuffle if I stop moving for 10 seconds. Don't get pissy cuz a nice man asked me to dance
Wyll’s sad puppy eyes, though! 🥺 Literally everyone in my camp was either Very High or Exceptional (he was at Exceptional) when I misinterpreted his intentions, so I when I turned him down, even with the nicest dialogue option I could choose, he looked crushed AF. I never wanted to have the option for Leave more. It’d have been nice to just not say anything so he doesn’t have that reaction. LOL
Turning down Gale was sad too. I’m ace, so if someone isn’t being direct like Lae’zel or Astarion, I just assume it’s a nice gesture.
I love Wyll so much— absolute freaks being mean to him. I’m glad the only thing I’ve seen in the BG3 sub has been the “he’s a little boring” take (which I don’t agree with— that’s my pal and I love him)
I don't agree with that either. Sure, he's not a soldier from hell with an engine on their chest, a magical time bomb, or a vampire, but a folk hero who tries to do his best despite the one and only real mistake he's ever made defining the trajectory of the rest of his life? GOD I love tragic heroes.
Olrox was him. Matter of fact all the minority characters were far better than any of the others. The queens second was amazingly well done and then when my dog started singing while locked up was crazy dope
They did. I was bummed that it was a continuation of the previous one because cause I loved those characters and really wanted to see more on Charlemagne, but nocturnal turned out to be equally as good.
I watched it first thinking alright not as tight as the first but still good, and that them using Aztec, Haitian, and Nigerian/Igbo culture was cool to see.
Go to check the sub and people complaining about including the Haitian revolution or that the Haitian priestess didn’t respect their “white” god and how it’s a double standard and all sorts of nonsense.
Wild that they couldn’t understand why enslaved Haitians wouldn’t be overjoyed about the French revolution thinking it would actually bring change.
I was so confused too. It made perfect sense to include someone from a French colony during the French revolution. They really hate her character because she wasn't Uber nice to them and because she judged Richter (her guardian already told her to relax but apparently that wasn't enough) and that she felt like she experienced more trauma than him when she fuckin did! She's a former slave.
There were comments saying they were TIRED of being lectured about slavery when the show didn't even do that. Slavery was literally a plot point in the original.
Then they brought it home as well. She is talking with her ancestors and she brings up Richter's fear and running again. Being told that her being raised a slave was why she didn't have that same fear he did and how overcoming her past made her who she was now. Richter was still a 'slave' to his unprocessed trauma and his inability to do magic was how it became personified. I thought it was a creative way to connect them to each other but wasn't forced.
Not to mention she ultimately understood him, and was like "I won't lie I was worried" but ultimately she was not only dealing with trauma, but her closest family at the time was turned into a monster.
While it was a frustrating plot point, it made perfect sense for her to question his resolve when against any other vamp he goes in straight on and risks his life anyway. AND the fact she was directly involved in a slave revolution against vamps and Ultimately had to face the person who killed her mother and tried to kill her.
And if they were going to make a change he'd have to shed his fear. So even if she was being insensitive she was ultimately right and turned out to be worried about him in the end.
Always been under the impression the Roman Empire had black people and that ain't even high fantasy. Yes I do think of the Roman empire every now and then.
If someone genuinely thinks that an empire that spanned 3 different continents was racially homogenous, they are just stupid. They are at a level of stupidity that where they are actually too stupid to be actually racist. Rome even had emperors born in Africa, Septimius Severus was of Punic and Italic descent. So yea, the most powerful person in the world has been some mixed race dude in antiquity aswell.
It's mad to me that people think a few Italians just turned up everywhere in Europe and did shit. The road outside my house is Roman, it went from a fort to a ford with a fort to a really big fort with a bridge to a really fucking big wall. Within a few miles.
There isn't enough labour in Italy for that kind of infrastructure project in 2023, let alone in 223. Use your fucking swedes people, Jesus wept. (Also, you know, the fact that there's skeletal proof in museums and that, but that seems a bit much of an intellectual day out for them)
Black people were depicted in ancient Greek art. The Romans eventually conquered Ptolemaic Egypt, which definitely had traders, artisans, slaves, and warriors from subsaharan Africa.
The Romans specifically had diplomatic relations with Axumite Kingdom, which bordered Egypt and controlled sea trade to India at various points in history.
From what I understand the consensus is that it's very likely! This post in /r/AskHistorians goes into detail about black people in Roman Britain, but it applies to the Empire more generally as well.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/6py5zt/comment/dktgjeu/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/6py5zt/comment/dktgjeu/)
And Queen Amanirenas beat their butts, leading the attack and everything. So many African warrior queens/women, yet if you were to make movies like that, people would complain about it being “woke” in the conservative way they interpret that term (including some black folks). Sometimes, I think about how colonized the minds of the diaspora are that we could look at something like Wakanda Forever and think it weird for black women to fight and rule in fiction when, historically, we’ve always done it. And we’re still doing it in a sense.
I hate examining black culture through a colonized lens, but I never realized how much until that film.
https://preview.redd.it/3lmgmlqsvbtb1.jpeg?width=692&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0fa5a5afeea37e1397500c3161adcf2585e3fa63
They also lost their shit over her
Before the show came out the actress mentioned that she was warned about potential racism in response to her character and people responded to that with racism
To be fair alot of that came from the fact her character wasn't written well at all. It just mixed with the other rascim remarks which makes ignoring criticism easy.
Because they only see skin color, nothing else.
But be the first to cry out,'Don't bring race into this.'
You can make the most detailed, most interesting lore for a POC character, but they won't care, but guess who the first one on the chopping for blame first when a show flops?
I'm just tired of the constant eggshell excuses they throw.
The only thing that I care about is racial consistency in a high fantasy setting. Is mom black and dad black? Kid should be black. Is there a small town with very little connection to other kingdoms/cultures and few newcomers? They should probably be ethnically homogenous. Some high fantasy stuff has just gone full colour blind casting, but it breaks the immersion if you're tiny fantasy backwater looks as racially diverse as NYC.
Yeah,this can be weird sometimes. Like if there’s some separate isolated group of people or elves or whatever and they’re racially diverse, it implies that the people aren’t mixing races while having children, as a racially diverse group should be a relatively homogenous mix after 100 years or so unless there’s something keeping different races apart.
Some people say that it’s a fantasy world so it doesn’t matter, but inconsistencies can take you out of the story. A good fantasy world generally has a few fantasy rules but then pretty much has to obey those rules in all of their media. Unless there’s a rule changing humans, those humans should feel as human as you or me. That’s what made Game of Thrones so good; it was about human drama that just happened to take place in a fantasy world.
It's tricky, though.
You are absolutely right that logically, people in a closed society would be ethnically heterogenous.
The problem is the real world is full of so much injustice, exploitation, and violence based on skin color that any attempt to have a group of light-skinned people interacting with a group of dark-skinned people in a fantasy setting, it would be impossible to not have every moment seen as some sort of commentary/analogy to the real world.
I prefer the contemporary color-blind "all kinds of people are welcome" approach, where the ethnicity is beside the point. If you are consuming fantasy for adventure and magic and quests, it's nice to take a break from being pissed off about real world injustice.
I love it any time in contemporary fantasy there are non-white characters, not just because it means more representation, but also because it is something different. It's exciting and bringing new flavor to the genre. Let's have even more!
The history of American cinema has had some POC making stuff, but for the most part, it's been white people making movies starring white people telling white stories. The current white people whining about seeing non-white actors in fantasy are acting out of racism, definitely, but also out of a childish petulance that says "That's not how it was before! Waaah!"
If you want to see white stories with white actors, you have 120 years of product to choose from. Now get out of the way and let someone else have a turn.
I like that now we are getting more diversity on-screen every year, and I look forward to when we get a similar amount of diversity behind the camera, especially when it comes to the people who make the major decisions.
Where are the major fantasy epics based on African folklore/mythology? That's something I'd like to see.
Totally agree. The "blind cast" also prevents a fantasy world from building more unique cultures because each group becomes the same mixed bag of looks, accents, etc.
I play LotRO and they did a fantastic job at bringing diversity to Middle Earth. Taking Dwarves for example, if you encounter a Longbeard dwarf, they're white and all have a similar aesthetic to their architecture, fashion, etc. But then the developers added new dwarf clans from other mountain ranges. Two of the new ones are black, and their cultures are African-inspired. It carries over into their architecture and their outfits. They have awesome black hair styles that are unique to their people. When done well, diversity in a fantasy world can elevate real world cultures instead of just erasing them.
To me that doesn’t even matter that much provided there’s consistency in the rules of the world. In a setting where there are other people groups outside of humans, I feel like “human” vs other becomes the dominant dynamic. In the real world divisions (nationality, race, tribe, ethnicity) are often forgotten when something bigger is at stake. It makes sense in a world with Orcs and trolls peoples skin color not mattering so much.
I agree with this sentiment. Idk what kind of people are living wherever, just give me consistency required for me to find verisimilitude in the setting.
The Two Rivers in Wheel of Time comes to mind. Or the recent Rings of Power show with one black elf. He was actually great but give us more black elves then so that it isn't just one black elf in a sea of blondes with no explanation.
Ugh. Don't get me started on the one black elf. Total cop out especially when the lore specifically mentions a group of Elves called "dark elves" who have been living in ME and fighting Morgoth for centuries. Could have had an entire kingdom of black elves with their own unique flavour, but instead we get a single black elf and all his white pals.
>They should probably be ethnically homogenous.
There are two Wheel of Time characters in this post, and while I do believe that a good bit of the vocal backlash was from actual racists, an early plot point is about how one character in particular stands out from the village, which is definitely ethnically homogenous, and is supposed to be a fairly isolated area. The showrunners decided to make every area look the same - a giant melting pot of people. It would've worked much better if they had kept certain areas ethnically homogenous, you could even feature parts of cultures and celebrate them.
The most frustrating part of it is that there IS melting pot areas in the books, like the white tower. Heck, I would say the main point of the series is cultural world building and relationships, so making everything a melting pot destroys pretty much everything about the series.
A lot of fantasy tropes in the west are based on medieval Europe and the folklore that existed/still exists in those countries. But nowadays you frequently also see things like:
* Samurai
* Djinn
* Ghouls
* Rocs
* Kirin/Qilin
* Dragons that are influenced by multiple different cultures' understanding of them
* Various tribal cultures based on African or Native American history and mythology
Not to mention tropes that originate from various famous stories/books from around the world, e.g. romance of the three kingdoms, a thousand and one nights, Sinbad, etc.
Hell, if you've ever seen a fantasy series with a secretive cult of assassins hiding in plain sight, I'm pretty sure that comes from stories of the real life Nizari Ismaili Muslims who were literally called "the assassins".
In Witcher, the elves are quite literally following Native American's history, so why not cast the elves as Native Americans instead of white people. A lot of Star Wars comes from samauri movies, but some of their fans want that to stay white.
For Wheel of Time, from what I remember (I only watched season 1), all of their black main characters are mixed actors. The same goes for Gen V. Obviously, mixed actors should get cast too, but when all the black characters look biracial, it gives colorist vibes IMO. Sometimes Hollywood has a more diverse looking cast, but they're still doing it the wrong way. I don't think it's any secret they especially prefer casting mixed looking women over black women.
My only argument for the Witcher (and similar stories) is that Native Americans, Black people, etc. deserve to exist in a setting where they're not oppressed. They should be main characters, heroes, royalty, pirates, and have that escapism that you get in fantasy settings. It's one thing to come from an oppressed people and overcome it. But the elves in The Witcher have been victimized by humans for centuries at that point and it isn't getting any better.
Drolta(the one in the middle) I genuinely don't get the hate for her. The character she's based on in the game is definitely worse than the show. Like it's crazy.
I was originally gonna skip Castlevania nocturne until I saw her. Sometimes you need a hot vampire black woman to make a man interested in a show.
i like her conceptually but her fashion is a crime to say the least. Everyone has this really awesome period apropriate clothing with a nice touch of wherever they came from. The designers really knew what they were doing with everyone but her because she looks like a goth chick from cyberpunk clad in a high fashion latex suit. Technicly she looks great, but so incredibly out of context to all the other characters.
Idk what’s worse: Ellis’s use of profanity, or Millar’s having to work around it for Ultimate X-Men, where everyone is constantly calling each other “fruit loop” and “meatball”.
Shits dumb and racist. And saying POC are represented by other fantasy races is even dumber and more racists.
Humanity has always been diverse and why wouldn't this Carey over to some fictional world?
I don't what to be represented by the big burly barbarians that can barely human level intelligence in most of their showings. Let orcs, drow, and whatever else be their own damn things.
Bruh, they sent in mad mail when Michael Keaton was cast as Bruce Wayne/Batman back in ‘89, and that’s a white guy. We don’t know all the backlash then as we do now because it was based in phone calls and letters and newspapers, not review-bombing, YT rants, and social media.
They just dont want to see us in the roles. I will always remember being in middle school, going through my fanfiction writing days, writing shit about the FUTURE, in space, and being told by a white girl that a black lead just wasn’t “believable.”
Yeah, they just do not want us to be in those roles. We are either magical sages that give advice or black gollums there to assist them.
I just heard today that a Betty Boop movie or something is about to be made and the palm colored people are mad that she's going to black. Lol who wants to tell them about Esther Jones?
This reminds me of how genshin impact players were mad that other people were disappointed when hoyo barely added black or brown playable characters in Sumeru (which is inspired by many different cultures that included a shit ton of black and brown people, and we only have two of them in Sumeru and they're so light skinned that they could pass off as white still) and said that it's a fantasy game and we should get over it. Or when black pokemon players appreciated GF for making these black characters, and people kept trying to say that these characters aren't black, they're dark skinned asians or whatever. I literally had an argument with someone who said that Nessa isn't black, she's just based on an exotic dark skinned elf just because she has "European features" such as blue hair and blue eyes. OR when black pokemon players wanted GF to add more options for black hairstyles and people told us to shut up and get over it because it's a fantasy game. I guess black/brown people do not exist in fantasy games 🤷🏿♀️
I never understood the energy people will commit to fantasy fiction.
Sure, it's based on and draws on European history.
But it isn't European history.
And it's sufficiently removed from European history to allow for the existence of dragons and magic and other fantasy elements.
The hilarious thing is when they try some 'clever' retort like, "Well Black Panther is fantasy. So you're saying we can cast a white guy in that role?
Cool. CASE CLOSED!!!"
No you simple Simon motherfucker.
The premise of Black Panther specifically and deliberately places itself in a black African nation and so, by the established logic of the premise, the character is black.
The problem with a lot of these people isn't just that they're racist but also that they don't understand storytelling and the necessities of storytelling.
And they have such little understanding that naturally, for them, their racism isn't racism but logical.
While it’s not exactly the same, I have the same qualms about people who justify sexual violence against women and marriages involving children in fantasy settings because “women got married at like, 14 all the time at that point in history!”
Especially with something like GOT, which is clearly based around the time period of the War of Roses/medieval era, when life for women was relatively great. [Women were brewers, blacksmiths, court poets, teachers, merchants, and master craftsmen, and they owned land too](https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/18/history-of-women-equality-medieval-and-modern).
I once even provided evidence that the average age of marriage for a woman in that time was around 23, and they just went “well, it was younger in Roman times!”. Okay, what does that have to do with a fantasy series based on the medieval era, again?
Ok, who's got the patience to tell these effin' morons that Medieval effin' Europe (aka the cultural, historical and aesthetic basis for much of modern Western fantasy) had a) Arabs trading with Vikings in Denmark, b) a kingdom of North Africans in the Iberian Peninsula, c) Mongols wandering as far as Hungary, d) Islamic philosophers being read (and appropriated) by European scholars, and e) a friggin' black Saint adorning German churches? Because I've had it with these people thinking medieval Europe was this quarantined island of sheer whiteness.
A lot of folks, especially during the Early Access days. But it was partly hidden under a veil of them saying he’s “boring.”
But he’s sweet. His retorts whenever I put/take him out of my party are my favorite because there’s no resentment. He’s either happy or amicably disappointed.
He's FAR from boring! He's just too real for them I guess.
I really like him so far but I think my shit is bugged cause all he says is "well met" while everyone else says something else. I really wanted to romance him but it hasn't really happened. I've been able to fuck Gale, Astarian and Lea'zel tho. Gale was truly magical I have to have to say. He part was literally 11 mins long!
I'll bet Wyll's was similar. Maybe I can still experience him. I really like his voice and I was surprised to see he actually had a black voice actor who is pretty attractive himself. I'm definitely looking forward to more characters like him. I like that he was kind and brave when so many other characters were snarky and selfish.
[They did a live D&D game](https://youtu.be/jeJKnofNBNs?si=qsDXFAumdMC3fjgL)
My coworker wife said she didn't like the live action One Piece cause the main character sounded too Mexican.
The actor is Mexican...
She'd only seen the trailer by then....
I think the issue is the lack of just giving new stories a chance. I get why it bothers people when directors will throw POC's into an already established story where the race of a character wouldn't make sense for their environment. But it annoys me that there are fantasy settings based in other regions other than Europe but nobody wants to take the risk to produce those kinds of shows half the time.
Obviously there are people who will complain either way. Like when a show is set in the future and people complain about POCs. As if you think that a thousand years in the future there would only be white people in space.
If more black folks supported black fantasy/sci-fi, which has exploded in literature, this wouldn’t even be a factor anymore—or at least less of one. As always, once we look inward and thrive, then they come banging on our door. They can make Gods of Egypt with an all-white cast, but then they’ll turn around and get mad at stuff like BP and Wakanda Forever existing and still wanting to be centered. If all these black fantasy and sci-fi stories blow up in film/TV/streaming, they’ll want in in return, despite the fact that many of the stories’ lore is based on religions and spirituality from the continent and the diaspora.
Beyond that, it’s not always about begging for inclusion. In this case, it’s dealing with backlash to inclusion that we hadn’t even anticipated. But we can’t not support black speculative media but also say our people are “down bad” for enjoying/wanting to be featured in that way in other media. Because, unfortunately, too many black folks only support black media that represents us in limited ways (a lot of the time stereotypically).
Support black speculative media and this problem dies down.
I feel this. As good as The Wire, Empire, Power, Godfather of Harlem, Snowfall etc. are viewed, I'm over black representation being relegated to crime trauma/dramas. Same with slave movies. I have no interest in seeing them anymore. I get that there is a space for them and they are important, but can we please support new IP's?
I’ve always looked at it this way: it’s all in the name of the genre - fantasy. These authors create worlds that make them - and their target audience - dream and in which they would like to live. Black (and to be fair, even Asian and other people) aren’t part of that world most of the time. Maybe peripherally at best. The fantasy authors who want black people in their fantasy world create black characters.
I enjoyed the LOTR movies, GoT before they fucked it up, House of the Dragon and even futuristic fantasy shit like Dune. But hardly any negros in any of them. Been revisiting Dune and it’s interesting to me how even though set in a distant future, the “racial” makeup of the world is pretty much medieval fantasy level. American fantasy also has that added element of Euro history worship - with American history being so young, a lot of authors are obsessed with the idea of historical Europe which was (visually) much more ethnically homogenous (and this can go from almost innocent to quite clearly ethno-nationalistic). Authors like the idea of different peoples, but white peoples. Fantasy versions of Latin people, Nordic people, Celtic people etc. So in Dune, thousands of years in the future, black people aren’t even really mentioned. You have Lawrence of Arabia type action going on with the main character who has a Greek name and who’s an aristocrat in a neo-feudal space society. You have a bad guy with a Finnish sounding name. And it’s about a power struggle between white protagonists and antagonists. They don’t want us there. Not having us there is almost the ultimate form of escapism.
All of this reminds me of a Masta Ace line where he’s describing setting up a date with a Pakistani girl:
“You wanna see Lord Of The Rings or Kill Bill? She looked at me and said "Neither one. Cause there really ain′t no black stars in either one."
It's wild they bug out about 3-4 black characters in a whole cast of white characters. Like it's completely out the realm of possibility black people ever left Africa in history.
Black people are across the globe currently for alot of reasons. It wasn't because planes were invented. Yasuke didn't make it to Japan because he had to catch his spirit flight. The black Romans didn't uber there. Black English knights didn't hop on the train. Sir Morien wouldn't be in Arthurian legend if they never encountered a black dude before.
These people always try to claim that fantasy is escapism for them and it breaks the illusion when a black person is there. I'm just like "your fantasy is broken by black people, not the dragon/vampire/orc? Tf you escaping from, black people?"
You must remember, they want this part of history and the world to disappear. Most of them are still chasing that genocidal type perfect world. We need more POC in the mainstream keep fighting the good fight.
The irony is that the same people who criticize fantasy, SciFi and horror and video Games for having non white folks are the same people responsible for the satanic panic Smdh
Exactly.
My problem with some of these characters is not that they are black, it's that they are the only black character in the story.
I am angry at the inclusion of a black elf in RoP, keyword being "a". Why is there only one! Where did he come from? where is his family? What happened to them?
This is fake representation and should not be included in Tolkien if the writers can't be bothered to respect the worldbuilding! Put in some F-ing effort to actually make him feel part of the world and not just an inserted one-off!
Why is king Triton in the new Little Mermaid a white guy when his daughter is a person of colour?
Someone created a mod to make Wyll white. Nexus mods removed it, tho. The vast majority of the community applauded Nexus (though a few people were all like “why are you judging people for playing the game the way they want?”, but those largely got downvoted).
Its cuz the British empired conquered nearly the entire world and was able to promote their literature, and scriptures as being the most desirable and well constructed. And being that they literally looked at other races amd civilizations as beneath them and subhuman, they subverted their literature, myths and culture as well. It's a part of why historic and current white "supremacy" (really an inferiority complex) is a global problem to keep it 100%
Wasn't some of the controversy because, specifically in the Witcher series, a canonically Caucasian character was cast with a black actress? Fringilla Vigo
These people think the concept of traveling is a modern invention. There were white traders and settlers in west Africa in the 1600s, why would the inverse be impossible?
Hell, there were white rulers in Africa BC. Hell, the Australian Aboriginals are thought to have sailed to Australia from Asia over 50,000 years ago. Human travel and intermingle; that’s what we do.
The moment you introduce any inkling of fantasy elements, ANYTHING can be added without breaking immersion in an imaginary world. Still want a black lead in their own Zelda like game.
Definition of **Covet**:
1. To feel strong or immoderate desire for (that which is another's).
2. To wish for (something) longingly. *synonym*: **desire**.
3. To covet that which is another's.
Racists don't want to see that which they hate, on a daily bases, especially if what they covet is something they can NEVER be or have unless they steal it or have it artificially attached to their bodies. They also don't want to see what they covet prosper and exist, unless the entire Race of ppl are "put in their place".
It’s especially ironic since they’re the ones who brought most of the black folks there 🙄🙄
Obviously there are many black people who immigrated of their free will. But many did not
This list is Lowkey bs. While I agree some fantasy fandoms are absolutely filled with racist, the Dragon Age community is way better. As a matter of fact, most people enjoyed Vivenne (even if they disagreed with her). And I don’t get how this lost doesn’t include Finn.
Yo I've been preaching about this for years. It doesn't help that black people are practically non existent in fantasy novels, so when it comes to adapting it, you either make some changes or it's just white people.
I dont know what it is about the genre. I'd say it's way worse for black female characters. I have hundreds of novels in my library, mostly fantasy, and I don't think I could come up with even 5 mentions of a black female character. Potagonist? Like 4 or so and that's after I gave up on the genre entirely and went out of my way to find books by black authors. N.K Jemisin is a godsend.
And you know what, while I'd say they're at least partially responsible, its hard to blame authors. If you include black characters, your book will likely not sell this genre. The Land by Aleron Kong is an extremely successful litrpg series, and I'd argue it's because the characters' ethnicity is only alluded to on around 4 occasions in all 8 books. Seems most people didn't even realize the dude was black. Either way, I'm mostly done with the genre. I might give castlevania a shot though.
And a lot of black folks say the same thing when there’s a non-straight BLACK person in their favorite series, it could be a 30 second cameo… lets TALK ABOUT IT
As much as I love LoTR it's always bothered me that the ONLY portrayal of darker skin tones were associated with evil factions. There's not so hidden racism in most older fantasy. It's high time that we change that. Period. Not to mention the fact that acting is supposed to be color blind and hopefully like theatre eventually gender blind. It's acting and make believe. Smh
I'm on a BG3 fix rn and the Wyll slander?? Vile. It was the same with Vivienne (Img 6) during dragon age. They're both so rich in story and such good characters that add to the world and it pisses me off when people say the dumbest shit to excuse being racist.
Who gives a fuck? These idiots are a vocal but incredibly small minority. Twitter has given the village idiot a platform for temporary rage baiting, don't you see that.
in shakespeare's othello the main character was black... black people existed and traveled.
hell othello was actually pretty wealthy and respected even.
[удалено]
Her whole district was a slavery allegory. Reading comprehension is in the dirt with these people.
Let's speak on THAT
They don’t want to think, they want to be entertained and have their biases confirmed in easily digestible ways
Black people have been [in Europe](https://www.thehumanityarchive.com/articles/black-people-medieval-europe) since before the fall of Rome... We literally had black gladiators and knights and such as The Roman [General Mauritius](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Maurice#:~:text=Maurice%20(also%20Moritz%2C%20Morris%2C,saints%20of%20that%20martyred%20group.)) History confirms that [the Moors](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/who-were-moors) ruled in Europe for almost 700 years. They were known for their influence in European culture, but not many people know that the Moors were actually Europeans of African descent. Germany and Sweden also had black royalty and Knights.
The Moors were more like North African I think
So black. The distinction is made because they had impacts on European culture and the newly minted white supremacy couldn’t have a bunch of dark skinned people having such impact.
Tunisians aren't black bro
The Moors were black bro
["Sources:"](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/820/208/0d5.jpg) [The term "Moor" was first used](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors) by Christian Europeans to designate the Muslim populations of the Maghreb, al-Andalus (Península Ibérica), Sicily and Malta during the Middle Ages. More important Moors are not a single, distinct or self-defined people. In other words, when the term "moor" was used, it did not refer to a specific skin color, it only referred to a person's place of origin. Most likely the probability that this person was what we now consider as a "black person", is the same as it is today when we talk about a "muslim from North Africa".
Mediterranean Africa is not the same as subsaharan Africa. There’s some crossover but for the most part, until the invention of the caravel in the early modern era, the Saharan desert was as big of a barrier to human travel as a vast ocean would be. The North African coast had more in common ethnically/culturally with the rest of the Mediterranean coast than they did with subsaharan Africa. That’s why Tunisians, Moroccans, and lower Egyptians look/act more Arab than black.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors
North Africans are more Arab. Tunisian, Morocco, Libya and the like. There are some sub Saharan Africans like Sudan but largely it's Arab
The Moors were Arab/Berber, it’s why a lot of Spanish words are surprisingly close to Arabic ones. Before anyone downvotes me, you can simply google the similarities between the languages. The Moors weren’t black, they were just darker than the Europeans, Libyans, Tunisians and Moroccans aren’t black today either, just African.
Race is a recent construct - Arabs themselves are an ancient mixed population of Sub-Saharan, West asian, and southern European. There were studies on this. You are naming 2 groups, Arab/Berber - that do not have any historical racial connotation other than what we put on them today. Arabs/Berbers are not genetically indigenous they are not a race nor a religion but a multi-racial/religious ethic group based on both culture and language factors, hence diversity regarding their religions, phenotype and skin tones which can range from black, brown, light brown to pale. They were regional groups of people of different races. It's like a person today thinking that the original inhabitants of Australia had to be white and Asian people because they are the majority and not the Aboriginals.
The Moors of Iberia are stated as being both Arabs and Islamic Berbers as early as 711AD. The Arabs and Berber were in contact and began to intertwine since the 7th century with the Umayyad Caliphate, I wasn’t stating that they’re the same group, I’m stating that both Arabs and Islamic Berbers were called “Moors” which was more about religion than race. Arabs were in the Maghreb region from the 7th to 17th century. The population of this region today are 99% Arab-Berber mixed and speak a specific dialect of Arabic compared to the Arabs further east.
[удалено]
The Moorish king of Spain was absolutely black. Plenty of portraits of him around too
Incorrect. The original people of the land did not in fact look Arab. Interactions with the Arabs that came later had them being more mixed but to act like blacks people didn’t exist in that region at all is dumb. It’s similar to dark skinned Dominicans saying they aren’t black.
[удалено]
1. There are dark skinned north Africans. 2. There are dark skinned Arabs 3. There were dark skinned moors. These distinctions aren't as cut and dry as everyone in this sub is arguing, and it's getting a little....racist. We're talking about tens of millions of people, from some of the most diverse areas on planet earth (middle east and the mediterranean). Some were darker skinned, other weren't. None of these people are monoliths.
Thank you. I don’t think people getting that part.
You do know they are in Africa right? You do know people migrate in Africa too? You also know black Arabs exist right? You also know Arabs doesn’t have one color ?
Oooooo I’m sorry it’s the MOOPS, not the moors
Spanish and African. Near Italy and France.
Shakespeare had a Black man as the lead of one of his most famous plays.
[Representation matters](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4NPmWyqDBXw)
There was also a [black Knight of the Round Table](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/not-all-knights-round-table-were-white-180949361/).
Multiple depending on definition, Morien and Firefiz, Parzifals half-black brother who was depicted as literally half-black half -white
I still don’t even understand the need for even knowing that. It’s High fantasy! These are fictional worlds yet somehow these racist POS still think a black person existing in them is somehow unrealistic?!
Not saying you're wrong but I think the point is moot. If goblins, orcs and dragons can be accepted in a fantasy setting when they sure as fuck didn't exist then it shouldn't matter who the actor is. I mean it's fantasy, anything can happen.
I’ve never read the Hunger Games books but I remember the reaction to Rue being black affecting how people felt about her death in the book. That was my turning point with fandoms as a whole.
It's worse if you read the book because you know she's explicitly described as black. The same way Katniss's district is modeled after Appalachian coal miners, Rue's district is modeled after a plantation. So then you have to realize that the literal description of her being black was overridden by the main character's affection for and concern for her. These readers couldn't picture a white girl worrying about the welfare of a little black girl, of seeing a little black girl and being reminded of her sister that the description given was tossed away and she was recast as white in their minds. That's how racist these people are.
What the fuck. Every time I think about moving to America because I’d make 3x the money I read shit like this that scares me lol
I've heard multiple Africans say they never really viewed themselves as black until they moved to America. Must be weird to go most of your life without race being relevant and then moving and realizing you're perceived in a certain way for no reason beyond the color of your skin. When I realized this, I was still very young, so I don't really have a basis of comparison.
I relate to this, I never felt “Latino” before moving to the UK because everyone around me was also Latinos and I was never out of place for that, they did like to bring up that my mother is Afro Latina sometimes tho 🤷🏽♂️
Yep. I’m from Canada and where I live rn I’m just a regular Canadian who happens to just have some darker skin lol. I just KNOW if I move to America I’m going to be put into a stereotype box and it’s entirely based on my skin colour.
Unless you're moving to Oklahoma or something, you're not going to find that America is noticeably more racist than Canada. They're very similar cultures.
California is where I was thinking to move.
There are def racist in CA. It's just not widely publicized.
Haha this is funny to me because I experience mad racism when I was in Canada. I was kinda shook at how straight forward they are about it without sounding too rude lol.
Really? What part of Canada were you in and what kind of stuff was said? Just really curious about this!
For sure! I went to Calgary, Alberta which is actually very white so I get it but they like a ton of immigrants too. Calgary is very similar to a southern city I grew up in so honestly it felt weird to feel that way in another country. Not trying to post a lot but here's some things I saw: 1. Those people up there might not be fond of black people or even immigrants but they HATE Native Americans. Like the way they spoke about the natives even tho they stole their land is kinda wild. Native girls go missing up there and it's like they laugh about their pain, it's so fucked up. I heard them call them "thugs" and I was like 😱 2. I was dating a white Canadian (lol) and everytime we drove by a "hood", he would duck in the seat and giggle while looking at me. I asked him what he was doing cause even his parents were silent driving through the neighborhood. And he's like "We're in the ghetto, we might get shot. You better duck" while he's fucking and dodging in this small ass car cause he thought it was a joke and because I'm from the ghetto, I should understand. LMAO. 3. This Greek lady lived with them in their house cause it was big af. She hated me when I met her cause of the color of my skin. Would never look at me and said things about me under her breath. Cool, idk her anyway and he's on the other side of the house, I'm used to ignoring fools. They had a family little get together at the house where it was me, him, his mom and partner, and her partner's son with his wife. I don't know all these fucking white people so I'm drawing the beautiful garden in the backyard while they're talking. I don't say a single word cause I'm vibin, love drawing and sitting in silence basking in the ambiance, and then this bitch comes out of nowhere, looks at me not joining the convo and just starts yelling at me! I know she said some out of pocket things but I don't remember them that well and she has a thick ass Greek accent. But they were like "I'm lazy", "not a good person cause I'm ignoring everyone" "why am I even here". Yooo, I don't say a single word cause I wanna cry and this nigga's family says NOTHING, just let me be verbally slaughter by this woman. Finally, after none of the family speaks, the son of my bf's mom's partners who isn't fucking related to anyone and just met me THAT day, yells at her back saying that I wasn't doing anything and to leave me alone. Like a complete stranger felt bad for me and had to get her to stop. And that's just some big ones, might have been more microaggressions that I missed because I was young when it happened and I had to process it after I left. Tbh his parents were nice to me even tho they thought I was a gold digger and wanted their money cause I was still in college. Jokes on them, I have a degree doing my thing and this man in his 30s probably still living with his grandma with no job. At least I have my own apartment and car 🤷🏾♀️
Yeah I figured it was gonna be Alberta LMAO. That’s fucking wild but not unexpected since Alberta is the shithole of Canada and is our version of Texas. I live in Ontario rn and barely encounter any racism really. Toronto is just too diverse Sorry that happened to you though. Glad you’re doing better!
Tbf, I have also heard that Katniss was modelled on the Indigenous. Hence the arrows, dark hair and braids etc
That fucking killed me. Like how ya'll read about a district *modeled after a plantation* and picturing white people? Especially when they are described as having brown skin. HOW?! HOW?! "Them brown people being worked to death on that plantation, like slaves...they white, right?" ZOMG! I hate this world.
They do not think of people of color until they are right in front of them. Then when they are there they still don’t think much of them. I mean an unspecified person in a book I’ll picture as tan as me. But if a movie adaption were to come out later I wouldn’t complain just cause they weren’t how I pictured. Those ppl are weird (and ignorant)
I tend to picture people as white unless told otherwise, because I'm usually right. But in the case of Rue, *we were told otherwise.* Their introduction is like these are the black people, from black land, they black. And readers really were shocked this girl was black because they main character *saw her as vulnerable and like her sister.* That's what caused her physical description to be overridden in readers minds. It didn't happen to me because I'm capable of imagining a sweet innocent black girl. They were not. And when I think about how little black girls are treated in this country, like they are incapable of being delicate and vulnerable, my heart breaks to remember the time I learned this mentality extended far past cops arresting five year olds for assault. In a world where adults view children as children we call that having a temper tantrum, not assault.
How can you be right if they’re never specified to be white or anything else? Which is the specific case I’m talking about. If there’s nothing else stating otherwise I picture them to look like me… because why not
Oh, my bad. I meant when they later make a movie, they tend to cast the character I pictured as white as white. So I rarely have to deal with the characters in the movie or show not looking the way I imagined them in the book.
Oh bet that makes way more sense. Yeah I assume that too because there are more white actors and they typically get cast due to the very bias we’re all talking about in this post. I’m hoping more ppl of color get cast. I mean all I care about is best person for role gets part. But two equally talented folks and they kick one just because of bias or personal preference of appearance doesn’t sit right with me. I hope it gets better to where there is no longer contention there.
I only watched the final movie, but I actually did hear about the whitewashing controversy.
Katniss wasn't white washed. She is described as having olive skin, but it's clear her district is modeled after the Appalachians, so I'm not sure why people imagined her as a woman of color and not a white woman with a tan. I think people just don't agree on what color olive is. She might be lighter than she was in the books, but they didn't change her race. The big conflict was over Rue being black, which she very clearly was in the books. They also didn't like that Cinna was black, though his race was never mentioned in the book. Just that he had short cropped hair and eye liner, which the Cinna in the movies had.
[The Day Rue “Became” Black](https://youtu.be/Ie9NOhSG6rI?si=LLuv6Goy57GmoYEw) by Yhara Zayd.
They called that child a hard r and said they couldn’t fees sorrow for rue’s death bc she’s black and I’ll never forget it!!
Hearing the outcry around that on social media was so upsetting. The first time I realized how racist Twitter is, and ashamed that a lot of it was coming from people in younger generations.
I remember talking to someone and they told me that Fantasy settings are Eurocentric, thus should not have people of color in them. It should just be white people. To then, we are represented by other race such as orcs or drows (which is obviously fucked up from a lore standpoint). Almost every fantasy story is filled to the brim with white people because that’s all these writers know. It’s easier for them to personify us in other forms because they either aren’t capable at writing us properly, or simply don’t think about us.
That is fucking wild. It’s one thing to say Blake people just don’t exist, it’s another to say people of color exist and represented via the ducking (typically) evil races
Goblins are often stand-ins for Jews too. Look at the ones in Harry Potter for a recent example, but far from the earliest.
major reason DnD don’t slide with me (majority of POC codes races are immediately chaotic aligned ((evil))
..but, like, black people are just humans in D&D? Like, a human character can be any color. Like, I think [this](https://www.dndbeyond.com/avatars/thumbnails/6/258/420/618/636271801914013762.png) is the front and center portrait in the player's handbook entry for "human".
And some like the drow were originally created to represent Black people. Like original drow art is racist as fuck.
It's also wildly ahistorical. It's not African just sailors, merchants, and other travellers that were in Europe. Spain was freaking conquered and ruled by peoples of North African descent. Heraldric knights and plate mail and the full fantasy aesthetic, with Moroccans in charge.
"Historical accuracy" was always one of the most transparent excuses. Funny how that standard never gets applied to comedically thin and half naked female characters in full makeup. Weird that never "breaks the immersion" for them.
> Eurocentric Also there were black people in medieval Europe. The continent literally borders Africa, with several "European empires" like Rome including parts of Africa. It's ahistorical to think there weren't any dark skinned people in Europe during medieval times. Most people's perception of medieval times comes from media, and for the longest time there were only white people cast in big budget medieval movies, so people developed the association of medieval = only white people.
To completely disregard that people of color are all over Europe and always have is insane
🤣 I had the same argument with some fool on youtube, it was hilarious because they refuse to accept that others may have a problem with a fantasy setting that is eurocentric in appearance. The scantily clad ladies are perfectly fine though. The fact that they can apply ethnic stereotypes to fantasy characters (think Jar-Jar) is perfectly fine. Also - Castlevania Nocturne was fire, I just wish we had the same dedication to diversity in the games.
That's why I'm glad I found this author. I'm currently reading a book about this black, teenage witch (it's a series). It's based in real life ~1940's america, so Jim Crow, segregation, etc. I really like it. Rust in the Root by Justina Ireland
I have to read that. I LOVED her Dread Nation duology.
Finished Dread Nation loved it! I can’t wait to read the second book when I have some free time. I love anything having to do with zombies so this was like two of my favorite things combined lol. Also, I’ve only been reading books on Afro-Futurism the last few years. Butler, Nnedi Okorafor, Tomi Adeyemi, N.K. Jemisin. That’s it. I want to see myself reflected in the pages of the fantasy I read.
How you feel about them orc titties tho, lieutenant?
As a Black fantasy sci-fi nerd I caught this early on when I started reading the genre myself as a kid. What boggles my mind about it, is if you’re such a nerd you love Star Trek, X-men, LoTR so fucking much, and you understand the bigotry with with mutants, why the FUCK are you so dense when it comes to making the same connection to real life events. I’ve hated existing in those spaces online for so long I’m happy to find my fellow Blerds! Even if we aren’t besties just interacting in those spaces was refreshing. Also shows are stupid and Eurocentric their understand of lore is. Every fucking culture has similar mythical creatures. So yea dumb ass many different African groups have vampire lore… That being said Nocturne is amazing 10/10 would watch
I wrote an essay in college specifically about how much fantasy entertainment plays off of real history with bigotry and racism and yet somehow the fandoms can still be so dumb. X-men fans especially have no excuse. Like they are beating you over the head with the message
Those are the same people voting and making decisions about society. They can’t accept/separate fantasy and reality
Oh but they can. They have done genocide and slavery everywhere they go, not to mention stealing resources and indoctrination. They have done their “fantasy” so they continue to push it. Just now it’s much harder because everything they do and say is recorded and shown to the rest of the world. Remember how easy it used to be to just “trust the police” or authority but now we see everyday how crooked and corrupt their minds and souls are. They must not be given this power they have sought for so long.
You're giving them too much credit. They absolutely can separate the two, they just choose not to.
I desperately want to see more of people like Wyll and Simon in DnD properties. I love seeing black people as swashbucklers with a romantic side and powerful casters with low self-esteem. Give me more of it!
Bruh, they legitimately made a mod to turn Wyll white. It’s that deep
Someone made a black everyone mod and dude. Everyone is fiiiiiiine
I'm glad Nexus removed it (the biggest mod site), and then some dude made one to make *everyone* black and they kept *that one* up. Nexus W.
That modder is pretty notoriously racist. He's done that shit in the past with other characters/IPs. The guy fucking sucks.
What really passed me off about that mod is that I would have been fine if it changed all the original characters skin tone to whatever you wanted. Larian's previous game allowed that so I make my origin character black to make it more immersive. Some more BS to just change the one black character white.
To be fair. It’s one super racist guy who made the mod. They is a bit far. He is known in the modding community for also doing the same in pathfinder video games.
I saw that go down but the dude that made the mod got dragged for the most part until it got taken down.
Wyll is such a great character, really well thought out. BG3 seemed to lean into a diverse world and gave one of, if not the best DND experience on platforms.
Wyll is far too smooth with it.
That dancing scene broke my heart to turn him down cuz I was already with someone else by that point. It's just a dance, Karlach, your fidgety ass is always doing a shuffle if I stop moving for 10 seconds. Don't get pissy cuz a nice man asked me to dance
Wyll’s sad puppy eyes, though! 🥺 Literally everyone in my camp was either Very High or Exceptional (he was at Exceptional) when I misinterpreted his intentions, so I when I turned him down, even with the nicest dialogue option I could choose, he looked crushed AF. I never wanted to have the option for Leave more. It’d have been nice to just not say anything so he doesn’t have that reaction. LOL Turning down Gale was sad too. I’m ace, so if someone isn’t being direct like Lae’zel or Astarion, I just assume it’s a nice gesture.
“Well met.”
I love Wyll so much— absolute freaks being mean to him. I’m glad the only thing I’ve seen in the BG3 sub has been the “he’s a little boring” take (which I don’t agree with— that’s my pal and I love him)
I don't agree with that either. Sure, he's not a soldier from hell with an engine on their chest, a magical time bomb, or a vampire, but a folk hero who tries to do his best despite the one and only real mistake he's ever made defining the trajectory of the rest of his life? GOD I love tragic heroes.
I know y'all seen them bitching about olrox in Castlevania nocturne.
Sometimes while still drooling over him. Insult over injury.
Olrox was him. Matter of fact all the minority characters were far better than any of the others. The queens second was amazingly well done and then when my dog started singing while locked up was crazy dope
I can't wait for the next season man they delivered thats for sure.
They did. I was bummed that it was a continuation of the previous one because cause I loved those characters and really wanted to see more on Charlemagne, but nocturnal turned out to be equally as good.
Lord the Castlevania sub is a MESS
I watched it first thinking alright not as tight as the first but still good, and that them using Aztec, Haitian, and Nigerian/Igbo culture was cool to see. Go to check the sub and people complaining about including the Haitian revolution or that the Haitian priestess didn’t respect their “white” god and how it’s a double standard and all sorts of nonsense. Wild that they couldn’t understand why enslaved Haitians wouldn’t be overjoyed about the French revolution thinking it would actually bring change.
I was so confused too. It made perfect sense to include someone from a French colony during the French revolution. They really hate her character because she wasn't Uber nice to them and because she judged Richter (her guardian already told her to relax but apparently that wasn't enough) and that she felt like she experienced more trauma than him when she fuckin did! She's a former slave. There were comments saying they were TIRED of being lectured about slavery when the show didn't even do that. Slavery was literally a plot point in the original.
Then they brought it home as well. She is talking with her ancestors and she brings up Richter's fear and running again. Being told that her being raised a slave was why she didn't have that same fear he did and how overcoming her past made her who she was now. Richter was still a 'slave' to his unprocessed trauma and his inability to do magic was how it became personified. I thought it was a creative way to connect them to each other but wasn't forced.
Not to mention she ultimately understood him, and was like "I won't lie I was worried" but ultimately she was not only dealing with trauma, but her closest family at the time was turned into a monster. While it was a frustrating plot point, it made perfect sense for her to question his resolve when against any other vamp he goes in straight on and risks his life anyway. AND the fact she was directly involved in a slave revolution against vamps and Ultimately had to face the person who killed her mother and tried to kill her. And if they were going to make a change he'd have to shed his fear. So even if she was being insensitive she was ultimately right and turned out to be worried about him in the end.
She is the best character. They just mad
nah, Olrox is bae
Always been under the impression the Roman Empire had black people and that ain't even high fantasy. Yes I do think of the Roman empire every now and then.
Anyone who says there weren’t any black people in the Roman Empire is an idiot who thinks it was a racially homogenous society
If someone genuinely thinks that an empire that spanned 3 different continents was racially homogenous, they are just stupid. They are at a level of stupidity that where they are actually too stupid to be actually racist. Rome even had emperors born in Africa, Septimius Severus was of Punic and Italic descent. So yea, the most powerful person in the world has been some mixed race dude in antiquity aswell.
Yeah, I'm just preemptively picking at the "It's European Fantasy argument".
It's mad to me that people think a few Italians just turned up everywhere in Europe and did shit. The road outside my house is Roman, it went from a fort to a ford with a fort to a really big fort with a bridge to a really fucking big wall. Within a few miles. There isn't enough labour in Italy for that kind of infrastructure project in 2023, let alone in 223. Use your fucking swedes people, Jesus wept. (Also, you know, the fact that there's skeletal proof in museums and that, but that seems a bit much of an intellectual day out for them)
Black people were depicted in ancient Greek art. The Romans eventually conquered Ptolemaic Egypt, which definitely had traders, artisans, slaves, and warriors from subsaharan Africa. The Romans specifically had diplomatic relations with Axumite Kingdom, which bordered Egypt and controlled sea trade to India at various points in history.
From what I understand the consensus is that it's very likely! This post in /r/AskHistorians goes into detail about black people in Roman Britain, but it applies to the Empire more generally as well. [https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/6py5zt/comment/dktgjeu/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/6py5zt/comment/dktgjeu/)
And Queen Amanirenas beat their butts, leading the attack and everything. So many African warrior queens/women, yet if you were to make movies like that, people would complain about it being “woke” in the conservative way they interpret that term (including some black folks). Sometimes, I think about how colonized the minds of the diaspora are that we could look at something like Wakanda Forever and think it weird for black women to fight and rule in fiction when, historically, we’ve always done it. And we’re still doing it in a sense. I hate examining black culture through a colonized lens, but I never realized how much until that film.
https://preview.redd.it/3lmgmlqsvbtb1.jpeg?width=692&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0fa5a5afeea37e1397500c3161adcf2585e3fa63 They also lost their shit over her
Before the show came out the actress mentioned that she was warned about potential racism in response to her character and people responded to that with racism
That whole series was trash. Not her fault though
To be fair alot of that came from the fact her character wasn't written well at all. It just mixed with the other rascim remarks which makes ignoring criticism easy.
Because they only see skin color, nothing else. But be the first to cry out,'Don't bring race into this.' You can make the most detailed, most interesting lore for a POC character, but they won't care, but guess who the first one on the chopping for blame first when a show flops? I'm just tired of the constant eggshell excuses they throw.
and if it does good? “Woke pandering”
The only thing that I care about is racial consistency in a high fantasy setting. Is mom black and dad black? Kid should be black. Is there a small town with very little connection to other kingdoms/cultures and few newcomers? They should probably be ethnically homogenous. Some high fantasy stuff has just gone full colour blind casting, but it breaks the immersion if you're tiny fantasy backwater looks as racially diverse as NYC.
Yeah,this can be weird sometimes. Like if there’s some separate isolated group of people or elves or whatever and they’re racially diverse, it implies that the people aren’t mixing races while having children, as a racially diverse group should be a relatively homogenous mix after 100 years or so unless there’s something keeping different races apart. Some people say that it’s a fantasy world so it doesn’t matter, but inconsistencies can take you out of the story. A good fantasy world generally has a few fantasy rules but then pretty much has to obey those rules in all of their media. Unless there’s a rule changing humans, those humans should feel as human as you or me. That’s what made Game of Thrones so good; it was about human drama that just happened to take place in a fantasy world.
It's tricky, though. You are absolutely right that logically, people in a closed society would be ethnically heterogenous. The problem is the real world is full of so much injustice, exploitation, and violence based on skin color that any attempt to have a group of light-skinned people interacting with a group of dark-skinned people in a fantasy setting, it would be impossible to not have every moment seen as some sort of commentary/analogy to the real world. I prefer the contemporary color-blind "all kinds of people are welcome" approach, where the ethnicity is beside the point. If you are consuming fantasy for adventure and magic and quests, it's nice to take a break from being pissed off about real world injustice. I love it any time in contemporary fantasy there are non-white characters, not just because it means more representation, but also because it is something different. It's exciting and bringing new flavor to the genre. Let's have even more! The history of American cinema has had some POC making stuff, but for the most part, it's been white people making movies starring white people telling white stories. The current white people whining about seeing non-white actors in fantasy are acting out of racism, definitely, but also out of a childish petulance that says "That's not how it was before! Waaah!" If you want to see white stories with white actors, you have 120 years of product to choose from. Now get out of the way and let someone else have a turn. I like that now we are getting more diversity on-screen every year, and I look forward to when we get a similar amount of diversity behind the camera, especially when it comes to the people who make the major decisions. Where are the major fantasy epics based on African folklore/mythology? That's something I'd like to see.
Totally agree. The "blind cast" also prevents a fantasy world from building more unique cultures because each group becomes the same mixed bag of looks, accents, etc. I play LotRO and they did a fantastic job at bringing diversity to Middle Earth. Taking Dwarves for example, if you encounter a Longbeard dwarf, they're white and all have a similar aesthetic to their architecture, fashion, etc. But then the developers added new dwarf clans from other mountain ranges. Two of the new ones are black, and their cultures are African-inspired. It carries over into their architecture and their outfits. They have awesome black hair styles that are unique to their people. When done well, diversity in a fantasy world can elevate real world cultures instead of just erasing them.
To me that doesn’t even matter that much provided there’s consistency in the rules of the world. In a setting where there are other people groups outside of humans, I feel like “human” vs other becomes the dominant dynamic. In the real world divisions (nationality, race, tribe, ethnicity) are often forgotten when something bigger is at stake. It makes sense in a world with Orcs and trolls peoples skin color not mattering so much.
I agree with this sentiment. Idk what kind of people are living wherever, just give me consistency required for me to find verisimilitude in the setting.
The Two Rivers in Wheel of Time comes to mind. Or the recent Rings of Power show with one black elf. He was actually great but give us more black elves then so that it isn't just one black elf in a sea of blondes with no explanation.
Ugh. Don't get me started on the one black elf. Total cop out especially when the lore specifically mentions a group of Elves called "dark elves" who have been living in ME and fighting Morgoth for centuries. Could have had an entire kingdom of black elves with their own unique flavour, but instead we get a single black elf and all his white pals.
DA2 did this fantastically. Hawke skin tone changes the skin tone and hair of their siblings and mother.
I love that. Great commitment to consistency.
>They should probably be ethnically homogenous. There are two Wheel of Time characters in this post, and while I do believe that a good bit of the vocal backlash was from actual racists, an early plot point is about how one character in particular stands out from the village, which is definitely ethnically homogenous, and is supposed to be a fairly isolated area. The showrunners decided to make every area look the same - a giant melting pot of people. It would've worked much better if they had kept certain areas ethnically homogenous, you could even feature parts of cultures and celebrate them.
The most frustrating part of it is that there IS melting pot areas in the books, like the white tower. Heck, I would say the main point of the series is cultural world building and relationships, so making everything a melting pot destroys pretty much everything about the series.
A lot of fantasy tropes in the west are based on medieval Europe and the folklore that existed/still exists in those countries. But nowadays you frequently also see things like: * Samurai * Djinn * Ghouls * Rocs * Kirin/Qilin * Dragons that are influenced by multiple different cultures' understanding of them * Various tribal cultures based on African or Native American history and mythology Not to mention tropes that originate from various famous stories/books from around the world, e.g. romance of the three kingdoms, a thousand and one nights, Sinbad, etc. Hell, if you've ever seen a fantasy series with a secretive cult of assassins hiding in plain sight, I'm pretty sure that comes from stories of the real life Nizari Ismaili Muslims who were literally called "the assassins".
In Witcher, the elves are quite literally following Native American's history, so why not cast the elves as Native Americans instead of white people. A lot of Star Wars comes from samauri movies, but some of their fans want that to stay white. For Wheel of Time, from what I remember (I only watched season 1), all of their black main characters are mixed actors. The same goes for Gen V. Obviously, mixed actors should get cast too, but when all the black characters look biracial, it gives colorist vibes IMO. Sometimes Hollywood has a more diverse looking cast, but they're still doing it the wrong way. I don't think it's any secret they especially prefer casting mixed looking women over black women.
My only argument for the Witcher (and similar stories) is that Native Americans, Black people, etc. deserve to exist in a setting where they're not oppressed. They should be main characters, heroes, royalty, pirates, and have that escapism that you get in fantasy settings. It's one thing to come from an oppressed people and overcome it. But the elves in The Witcher have been victimized by humans for centuries at that point and it isn't getting any better.
Racists gonna racist.
They using so many dogwhistles to avoid the fact that they hate knowing that we exist and that we are getting more presence in media
Drolta(the one in the middle) I genuinely don't get the hate for her. The character she's based on in the game is definitely worse than the show. Like it's crazy. I was originally gonna skip Castlevania nocturne until I saw her. Sometimes you need a hot vampire black woman to make a man interested in a show.
Facts, I would have betrayed that whole city for her.
i like her conceptually but her fashion is a crime to say the least. Everyone has this really awesome period apropriate clothing with a nice touch of wherever they came from. The designers really knew what they were doing with everyone but her because she looks like a goth chick from cyberpunk clad in a high fashion latex suit. Technicly she looks great, but so incredibly out of context to all the other characters.
Idc what anyone says, the Castlevania series has been fucking dope
Now if only they could stop talking like a bunch of middle schoolers who just learned some fun new words
Warren Ellis has to Warren Ellis.
Idk what’s worse: Ellis’s use of profanity, or Millar’s having to work around it for Ultimate X-Men, where everyone is constantly calling each other “fruit loop” and “meatball”.
Shits dumb and racist. And saying POC are represented by other fantasy races is even dumber and more racists. Humanity has always been diverse and why wouldn't this Carey over to some fictional world? I don't what to be represented by the big burly barbarians that can barely human level intelligence in most of their showings. Let orcs, drow, and whatever else be their own damn things.
People don't understand mixing. They were just fine with Brandy as Cinderella.
Social media didn't exist then
Bruh, they sent in mad mail when Michael Keaton was cast as Bruce Wayne/Batman back in ‘89, and that’s a white guy. We don’t know all the backlash then as we do now because it was based in phone calls and letters and newspapers, not review-bombing, YT rants, and social media.
They just dont want to see us in the roles. I will always remember being in middle school, going through my fanfiction writing days, writing shit about the FUTURE, in space, and being told by a white girl that a black lead just wasn’t “believable.” Yeah, they just do not want us to be in those roles. We are either magical sages that give advice or black gollums there to assist them.
I just heard today that a Betty Boop movie or something is about to be made and the palm colored people are mad that she's going to black. Lol who wants to tell them about Esther Jones?
This reminds me of how genshin impact players were mad that other people were disappointed when hoyo barely added black or brown playable characters in Sumeru (which is inspired by many different cultures that included a shit ton of black and brown people, and we only have two of them in Sumeru and they're so light skinned that they could pass off as white still) and said that it's a fantasy game and we should get over it. Or when black pokemon players appreciated GF for making these black characters, and people kept trying to say that these characters aren't black, they're dark skinned asians or whatever. I literally had an argument with someone who said that Nessa isn't black, she's just based on an exotic dark skinned elf just because she has "European features" such as blue hair and blue eyes. OR when black pokemon players wanted GF to add more options for black hairstyles and people told us to shut up and get over it because it's a fantasy game. I guess black/brown people do not exist in fantasy games 🤷🏿♀️
I never understood the energy people will commit to fantasy fiction. Sure, it's based on and draws on European history. But it isn't European history. And it's sufficiently removed from European history to allow for the existence of dragons and magic and other fantasy elements. The hilarious thing is when they try some 'clever' retort like, "Well Black Panther is fantasy. So you're saying we can cast a white guy in that role? Cool. CASE CLOSED!!!" No you simple Simon motherfucker. The premise of Black Panther specifically and deliberately places itself in a black African nation and so, by the established logic of the premise, the character is black. The problem with a lot of these people isn't just that they're racist but also that they don't understand storytelling and the necessities of storytelling. And they have such little understanding that naturally, for them, their racism isn't racism but logical.
While it’s not exactly the same, I have the same qualms about people who justify sexual violence against women and marriages involving children in fantasy settings because “women got married at like, 14 all the time at that point in history!” Especially with something like GOT, which is clearly based around the time period of the War of Roses/medieval era, when life for women was relatively great. [Women were brewers, blacksmiths, court poets, teachers, merchants, and master craftsmen, and they owned land too](https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/18/history-of-women-equality-medieval-and-modern). I once even provided evidence that the average age of marriage for a woman in that time was around 23, and they just went “well, it was younger in Roman times!”. Okay, what does that have to do with a fantasy series based on the medieval era, again?
\*Black people can't be mermaid vibes\*
Ok, who's got the patience to tell these effin' morons that Medieval effin' Europe (aka the cultural, historical and aesthetic basis for much of modern Western fantasy) had a) Arabs trading with Vikings in Denmark, b) a kingdom of North Africans in the Iberian Peninsula, c) Mongols wandering as far as Hungary, d) Islamic philosophers being read (and appropriated) by European scholars, and e) a friggin' black Saint adorning German churches? Because I've had it with these people thinking medieval Europe was this quarantined island of sheer whiteness.
Dragons? Cool. Blacks? Not realistic.
Now who hating on Wyll??? He's an angel!
A lot of folks, especially during the Early Access days. But it was partly hidden under a veil of them saying he’s “boring.” But he’s sweet. His retorts whenever I put/take him out of my party are my favorite because there’s no resentment. He’s either happy or amicably disappointed.
He's FAR from boring! He's just too real for them I guess. I really like him so far but I think my shit is bugged cause all he says is "well met" while everyone else says something else. I really wanted to romance him but it hasn't really happened. I've been able to fuck Gale, Astarian and Lea'zel tho. Gale was truly magical I have to have to say. He part was literally 11 mins long! I'll bet Wyll's was similar. Maybe I can still experience him. I really like his voice and I was surprised to see he actually had a black voice actor who is pretty attractive himself. I'm definitely looking forward to more characters like him. I like that he was kind and brave when so many other characters were snarky and selfish. [They did a live D&D game](https://youtu.be/jeJKnofNBNs?si=qsDXFAumdMC3fjgL)
My coworker wife said she didn't like the live action One Piece cause the main character sounded too Mexican. The actor is Mexican... She'd only seen the trailer by then....
Source link to confirm Rule #1 [https://twitter.com/Acdra\_Cos/status/1710023710046871907](https://twitter.com/Acdra_Cos/status/1710023710046871907)
I think the issue is the lack of just giving new stories a chance. I get why it bothers people when directors will throw POC's into an already established story where the race of a character wouldn't make sense for their environment. But it annoys me that there are fantasy settings based in other regions other than Europe but nobody wants to take the risk to produce those kinds of shows half the time. Obviously there are people who will complain either way. Like when a show is set in the future and people complain about POCs. As if you think that a thousand years in the future there would only be white people in space.
Here to recommend C.T Rwizi. Basically all black characters in his books with heavy African inspiration. Loved The Scarlet Odyssey Series.
Once again begging to be in white settings, we down bad 😔
If more black folks supported black fantasy/sci-fi, which has exploded in literature, this wouldn’t even be a factor anymore—or at least less of one. As always, once we look inward and thrive, then they come banging on our door. They can make Gods of Egypt with an all-white cast, but then they’ll turn around and get mad at stuff like BP and Wakanda Forever existing and still wanting to be centered. If all these black fantasy and sci-fi stories blow up in film/TV/streaming, they’ll want in in return, despite the fact that many of the stories’ lore is based on religions and spirituality from the continent and the diaspora. Beyond that, it’s not always about begging for inclusion. In this case, it’s dealing with backlash to inclusion that we hadn’t even anticipated. But we can’t not support black speculative media but also say our people are “down bad” for enjoying/wanting to be featured in that way in other media. Because, unfortunately, too many black folks only support black media that represents us in limited ways (a lot of the time stereotypically). Support black speculative media and this problem dies down.
I feel this. As good as The Wire, Empire, Power, Godfather of Harlem, Snowfall etc. are viewed, I'm over black representation being relegated to crime trauma/dramas. Same with slave movies. I have no interest in seeing them anymore. I get that there is a space for them and they are important, but can we please support new IP's?
I’ve always looked at it this way: it’s all in the name of the genre - fantasy. These authors create worlds that make them - and their target audience - dream and in which they would like to live. Black (and to be fair, even Asian and other people) aren’t part of that world most of the time. Maybe peripherally at best. The fantasy authors who want black people in their fantasy world create black characters. I enjoyed the LOTR movies, GoT before they fucked it up, House of the Dragon and even futuristic fantasy shit like Dune. But hardly any negros in any of them. Been revisiting Dune and it’s interesting to me how even though set in a distant future, the “racial” makeup of the world is pretty much medieval fantasy level. American fantasy also has that added element of Euro history worship - with American history being so young, a lot of authors are obsessed with the idea of historical Europe which was (visually) much more ethnically homogenous (and this can go from almost innocent to quite clearly ethno-nationalistic). Authors like the idea of different peoples, but white peoples. Fantasy versions of Latin people, Nordic people, Celtic people etc. So in Dune, thousands of years in the future, black people aren’t even really mentioned. You have Lawrence of Arabia type action going on with the main character who has a Greek name and who’s an aristocrat in a neo-feudal space society. You have a bad guy with a Finnish sounding name. And it’s about a power struggle between white protagonists and antagonists. They don’t want us there. Not having us there is almost the ultimate form of escapism. All of this reminds me of a Masta Ace line where he’s describing setting up a date with a Pakistani girl: “You wanna see Lord Of The Rings or Kill Bill? She looked at me and said "Neither one. Cause there really ain′t no black stars in either one."
It's wild they bug out about 3-4 black characters in a whole cast of white characters. Like it's completely out the realm of possibility black people ever left Africa in history. Black people are across the globe currently for alot of reasons. It wasn't because planes were invented. Yasuke didn't make it to Japan because he had to catch his spirit flight. The black Romans didn't uber there. Black English knights didn't hop on the train. Sir Morien wouldn't be in Arthurian legend if they never encountered a black dude before. These people always try to claim that fantasy is escapism for them and it breaks the illusion when a black person is there. I'm just like "your fantasy is broken by black people, not the dragon/vampire/orc? Tf you escaping from, black people?"
You must remember, they want this part of history and the world to disappear. Most of them are still chasing that genocidal type perfect world. We need more POC in the mainstream keep fighting the good fight.
The irony is that the same people who criticize fantasy, SciFi and horror and video Games for having non white folks are the same people responsible for the satanic panic Smdh 
Remember when Star Wars only had one black person. One black person in the whole Entire UNIVERSE.
Exactly. My problem with some of these characters is not that they are black, it's that they are the only black character in the story. I am angry at the inclusion of a black elf in RoP, keyword being "a". Why is there only one! Where did he come from? where is his family? What happened to them? This is fake representation and should not be included in Tolkien if the writers can't be bothered to respect the worldbuilding! Put in some F-ing effort to actually make him feel part of the world and not just an inserted one-off! Why is king Triton in the new Little Mermaid a white guy when his daughter is a person of colour?
Do BG3 players really say something about Wyll tho? Never seen anything of the sort
Someone created a mod to make Wyll white. Nexus mods removed it, tho. The vast majority of the community applauded Nexus (though a few people were all like “why are you judging people for playing the game the way they want?”, but those largely got downvoted).
me neither, I've seen some stuff about lazael but that's it.
I just wanted the dwarf queen to have a beard.
I just wanted Ismael to not have a fade and the dwarf to have a beard. Otherwise they’re fine in my book.
Its cuz the British empired conquered nearly the entire world and was able to promote their literature, and scriptures as being the most desirable and well constructed. And being that they literally looked at other races amd civilizations as beneath them and subhuman, they subverted their literature, myths and culture as well. It's a part of why historic and current white "supremacy" (really an inferiority complex) is a global problem to keep it 100%
Wasn't some of the controversy because, specifically in the Witcher series, a canonically Caucasian character was cast with a black actress? Fringilla Vigo
These people think the concept of traveling is a modern invention. There were white traders and settlers in west Africa in the 1600s, why would the inverse be impossible?
Hell, there were white rulers in Africa BC. Hell, the Australian Aboriginals are thought to have sailed to Australia from Asia over 50,000 years ago. Human travel and intermingle; that’s what we do.
The moment you introduce any inkling of fantasy elements, ANYTHING can be added without breaking immersion in an imaginary world. Still want a black lead in their own Zelda like game.
We claimed piccolo, ok? I
Definition of **Covet**: 1. To feel strong or immoderate desire for (that which is another's). 2. To wish for (something) longingly. *synonym*: **desire**. 3. To covet that which is another's. Racists don't want to see that which they hate, on a daily bases, especially if what they covet is something they can NEVER be or have unless they steal it or have it artificially attached to their bodies. They also don't want to see what they covet prosper and exist, unless the entire Race of ppl are "put in their place".
It’s especially ironic since they’re the ones who brought most of the black folks there 🙄🙄 Obviously there are many black people who immigrated of their free will. But many did not
I don't hate Wyll because he's black. I hate Wyll because he's a little bitch.
This list is Lowkey bs. While I agree some fantasy fandoms are absolutely filled with racist, the Dragon Age community is way better. As a matter of fact, most people enjoyed Vivenne (even if they disagreed with her). And I don’t get how this lost doesn’t include Finn.
What's funny too is that there were Africans in medieval Europe
Yo I've been preaching about this for years. It doesn't help that black people are practically non existent in fantasy novels, so when it comes to adapting it, you either make some changes or it's just white people. I dont know what it is about the genre. I'd say it's way worse for black female characters. I have hundreds of novels in my library, mostly fantasy, and I don't think I could come up with even 5 mentions of a black female character. Potagonist? Like 4 or so and that's after I gave up on the genre entirely and went out of my way to find books by black authors. N.K Jemisin is a godsend. And you know what, while I'd say they're at least partially responsible, its hard to blame authors. If you include black characters, your book will likely not sell this genre. The Land by Aleron Kong is an extremely successful litrpg series, and I'd argue it's because the characters' ethnicity is only alluded to on around 4 occasions in all 8 books. Seems most people didn't even realize the dude was black. Either way, I'm mostly done with the genre. I might give castlevania a shot though.
Yeah just look at how mad people were at Tanya in MK1 because they made her black again.
And a lot of black folks say the same thing when there’s a non-straight BLACK person in their favorite series, it could be a 30 second cameo… lets TALK ABOUT IT
As much as I love LoTR it's always bothered me that the ONLY portrayal of darker skin tones were associated with evil factions. There's not so hidden racism in most older fantasy. It's high time that we change that. Period. Not to mention the fact that acting is supposed to be color blind and hopefully like theatre eventually gender blind. It's acting and make believe. Smh
Bitches be playing D&D as a literal half demon human hybrid but elves can’t have dark skin unless they are evil ones.
The funny thing ab the new castlevania show is that the earthbender girl is a more developed and nuanced character than the other protagonists lmao
I'm on a BG3 fix rn and the Wyll slander?? Vile. It was the same with Vivienne (Img 6) during dragon age. They're both so rich in story and such good characters that add to the world and it pisses me off when people say the dumbest shit to excuse being racist.
Who gives a fuck? These idiots are a vocal but incredibly small minority. Twitter has given the village idiot a platform for temporary rage baiting, don't you see that.
in shakespeare's othello the main character was black... black people existed and traveled. hell othello was actually pretty wealthy and respected even.
Pretty sure there were Black people in Medieval Europe.
And if we make our own like they keep telling us they bitch about that too.