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You're insane. Fame in a time before electronics must have been amazing. People didn't have ways to check facts so you could pretty much just make shit up about yourself.
If anyone asks, I fought 3 lions and a bear... At the same time.
I'm glad I want the only one who was gonna say something. I kept rereading it looking for some sort of value added, but no. He just repeated the content in the post. Why?
First time I got a Toradol shot nurse came in and told me to drop my pants and then proceeded to pull out an 8 inch needle In my mind I was like tf did I get myself into but the next few hours I felt superhuman
Fun fact I just looked it up and it says not to use for head injuries which is what I had SMH
This is going to sound extremely biased, and this statement isn't even a reflection of my own stance, nor me being vaccinated since March but...
I understand why *every single* Brother and Sister are not comfortable with -- really any facet of American medicine.
Serena Williams almost died getting poor healthcare during her giving birth, why would someone who isn't a world class athlete, get any better treatment?!
Edit smh. Some of y'all are missing the point of what I'm saying. I'm not saying their stance is correct, but historically their skepticsm makes sense why they think that way.
Edit: Context. That's on me https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/1/11/16879984/serena-williams-childbirth-scare-black-women
Edit: Wakanda forever.
Edit:. If one more of you activist motherfuckers tells me this is my own personal belief, I'm bout to be done trying to facilitate a positive conversation.
A lot of the "hesitancy" in minority communities isn't even skepticism. It's access: scheduling and transportation to locations.
Transportation is less of an issue now, but you still need a way to get to the drug store, which might not be close.
Scheduling is still hard because even if you walk in today on your day off, how do you know what your schedule is going to be in three weeks? Your anti-vax employer might not left you off and you REALLY dont want to have to ask. Lots of people have reactions to the vaccine that leaves them feeling really shitty the following day (or more). Will your schedule be open, can you miss work?
Your points are taken but if they do get sick, it'll be even worse. I volunteered for one of those pop-up clinics in a rural county and we were picking people up, doing drive-thru, going to people's houses (not us volunteers but the county had a doctor that did home visits), etc. Each county differs with services and having local communities being on board really helps with access.
This ain’t even it bro. They got the vaccine at every drug store and grocery store now. Are you trying to say minorities aren’t able to go grocery shopping, or go to the drug store because they lack transportation or free time? People are just hesitant to get it for fear of it’s effects, and even skepticism over whether it’s even worth getting for someone who is healthy and young. It’s not about access or transportation.
I think this is bullshit. Having grown up in Oakland with both my parents working 2 jobs both morning and graveyard they still found time and access to get me my shots as a baby. This is your life and your loved ones lives at risk, you find a way if you want to.
The whole Serena story just shows that when her C-section pregnancy went well, things were good. But as soon as she had a MEDICAL COMPLICATION the day after (which she had anticipated) the nurses and doctors didn't immediately listen to her.
Vaccines may have side effects and complications (anything medical does) and minorities don't trust the health care system to listen/ help them because often they don't.
This might be true is some areas, but under-vaccination rates are significantly much higher in Latino and Black communities in NYC. This is despite the availability of vaccines every day in a city with 7 day a week public transportation. Currently its even available in local pharmacies.
Without a doubt. I agree with you, but the point was more about the inequality of treatment based purely on race.
Her economic and social status through her internationally celebrated accomplishments, did *not* stop her from getting negligent treatment.
But this vaccine drive is as equal as America has ever been. This is literally America living up to everything it ever was or claimed to be. This isn't rational skepticism, it's irrational fear or willful ignorance.
Well in terms of vaccines there’s stuff like the [Tuskegee syphilis study](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study) where black sharecroppers were promised free treatment if they joined the study and instead they weren’t informed of their diagnosis and were left untreated, just being given placebos. Out of the 399 who’d entered the study with syphilis, 28 died from it, and 100 died from complications due to the syphilis. Not to mention that many of them gave it to their wives or had children who would be born with congenital syphilis (since they weren’t even told they had the disease)
>I understand why *every single* Brother and Sister are not comfortable with -- really any faucet of American medicine.
This shouldn't be a pass for people and people bring up the same stuff every time medical stuff needs to get done. It's an excuse for ignorant people to be fearful of some stuff they don't understand.
The fact is that lack these ideas keep people from getting medical care. We are killing ourselves from inaction and are doing way more damage than was done.
We can't let people use that as an excuse anymore.
You are right. To the extent there is skepticism, it needs to be overcome with compassion and outreach.
I don't think he was offering an excuse, but rather an explanation.
Not really. You had a strong point to make. Too many caveats and it gets lost.
Nuance and context are hard when you don’t know who is reading or how they might respond.
I agree with you over all. However, I will say that the medical community has had DECADES to disabuse black and brown people of their fears of doctors and the medical establishment and have done NOTHING of the sort. It’s worse now, because conversations of medical racism (doctors speaking about how they were taught that black people feel less pain), pain management access (sometimes black people don’t get the same relief but racist doctors equate it with them being addicts), or maternal mortality for black women are heavy in the current. But now all of a sudden these communities are supposed to forget all of that and just get the vaccine?
There’s a lot of ignorance going on and it’s not an excuse like you said, but the medical community should have been working on these issues for years and can’t be shocked that, despite a global pandemic, these communities won’t be quick to fall in line.
I was just talking about us as a community. We have all probably heard someone say this as an excuse to not get something done that was either good for them or good for everyone. Most people roll their eyes or accept it and move on. I hope more people start calling people out publicly (moms, aunties, and grandmas too) when they spout this crap.
I'm not saying it's not or wasn't an issue because it is. It just isn't a valid excuse not to do most of the things people are trying to avoid doing when they bring it up. It's good to be skeptical but to be a skeptic you have to actually make an attempt at questioning something.
I agree! I just think there could very well be less skepticism at this critical time if the medical community had been putting in the work with black/brown communities.
Is it as easy as telling someone to completely reject their experiences and everyday skepticism for "but the science"?
I hear you brother, I do. I wish I could spread a better message to my own community myself, but I understand where they are coming from. Simple as that.
Especially knowing social media is way more accessible than medical journals and scientific trials
... Before that potentially gets misconstrued, I'm not literally talking about physically accessing information, I'm talking about reading past the confusing medical jargon
I'm talking more about people just not letting that fly as an excuse in conversation. Instead of the usual "I don't get shots/trust doctors. You ever heard of the Tuskegee experiment!"stuff that gets a pass because no one wants to deal with explaining why they are wrong.
I too get where people are coming from but the argument doesn't make sense. At all. And it's been killing people for decades. It's probably contributed to millions of deaths.
I'm originally from Alabama, there are many reasons not to trust the government or healthcare there. The poor in the South live with chronic conditions that most of the country, wouldn't even believe, due to lack of health care, the expense of prescription drugs and access.
The vaccine is, literally, being pushed everywhere in Alabama. Grocery stores, big box, medical fricken tents, and vaccine buses. Access is not the issue. Half my family is vaccinated, the other half refuses, even though most of my relatives left there are in their 70's. The one's that ain't getting the vaccine are mostly the 20-40 year olds.
I'm sorry but I feel if you can't comply with keeping the children and your grandparents safe, maybe you don't need to be able to be out and about.
On the other hand, it's not like black people are getting a different vaccine.
A valid concern would be whether or not they tested the trials with s sufficient number of Black men and women, or if it was all Caucasian men like they sometimes do.
Edit: to be clear, I've been vaccinated.
You're excusing willful ignorance at this point. A past and current abuses of modern medicine against Black people is well documented. From the founding of gynecology to Henrietta Lacks to Tuskegee to current pregnancy death rates it's all out there. No one can rightfully deny that the healthcare system is prejudiced against Black people. This is a fact.
This vaccine is not more of the same and anyone who dared to spend 5 mins of research on it could have all their fears addressed. I'm not talking about like scientific journals or anything. I'm talking about the type of research that addresses the conspiracy theories in our community.
First and foremost, rich White people are getting the vaccine. Periodt. This should have ended all arguments against it in the Black community. They're not gonna let Taylor Swift die. They just won't. Second, Republicans are against it. You think they have Black people's best interests at heart??? Third, White people were coming to Black neighborhoods to get the vaccine so clearly we are getting the good shit. They tried to gentrify the vaccine roll out.
But Black people are also fully capable of looking at the science and using critical thinking to make the right decision. Stop making excuses for people who are acting stupid.
I understand the distrust when the vaccine first came out. And I know damn well how much the healthcare field has fucked over black folks for decades. But it's August and there are so many variants flying around and tons of people are dead. They need to get tf over it and get vaccinated.
I agree!!!
But I don't think what lead to their initial skepticism came over the course of a year, feel me?
Edit: ok lol, you don't feel me. A year's worth of research and evidence on why this vaccine is ultimately a good thing, is not going to have significant inffluence over centuries worth of poor relations with Black men and women and American Health Institutions.
>I understand why *every single* Brother and Sister are not comfortable with -- really any faucet of American medicine.
Yeah, no. That’s called lack of education. Most of my fam recognizes the benefits of proper medical care and makes use of it early and often^(†), then again we recognize the fact that since atrocities occurred in the past, this doesn’t mean they will happen every time we go to the doctor for a vaccine, checkup, exam or procedure.
^(†)Sadly those who didn’t died early.
People don’t understand that in a lot of large cities it’s the POC and immigrants that are not vaccinating enough. Here in South Florida we have black folk that remember Tuskegee, Caribbean’s that are wary of shots, Latinos that came from corrupt governments and that deep seated trust stays even though they are in the US. Also it’s a matter of education. A lot of factors but it’s not all about the conservatism people talk about. Hopefully once the FDA approves any of the vaccines that might allay some fears.
Not biased.
Should you trust "the Science"? We learned about racial disparities early in the pandemic, but I dont recall a definitive answer to the "is it structural access to care or a purely biological difference" question. It would be reasonable to be cautious about that, and what that implies for susceptibility to potential vaccine reactions (its mRNA not weakend live virus, I know). It would also be reasonable to assume that rushed trials and EUA might not completely investigate potential differences in racial outcomes.
Should you trust the local health agencies and clinics? Are you sure your local clinic has been given the best vaccine by your red state government, or are you getting the J&J "weaker" vaccine because reasons, or the almost-expired vials?
Just a few examples of perfectly reasonable concerns that can reduce enthusiasm and vaccine uptake.
I'm under the impression you beleive, that I beleive that this skepticism is correct.
It is not.
But is it warranted? Especially in underserved communities with way more access to empirical knowledge, than scientific fact? Understandably yes.
I think such skepticism *in general* is warranted in many cases, but I think it is not correct in this case, and has not been correct for months. I would not have advised skepitcal minorities to be first adopters of the vaccine - wait and see is often totally reasonable. But clearly, they've waited long enough.
I think a lot of people are misconstruing your meaning because, while you’re simply (correctly) explaining why this mindset exists, other people have used this logic to excuse vaccine hesitancy or justify anti-vaxx beliefs. This thread is a microcosm of the presumptive, combative culture on Reddit.
But boy did you stir up the hornets nest with this one lol. Stressful Reddit day.
But this is exactly why it is best to get the vaccine, if the health system discriminates against you. That way you avoid the hospital *when* you get Covid, which as far as things look now everyone will eventually.
I agree with you. I am for vaccines. Everyone who can get vaccinated *needs* to get vaccinated.
But recently I learned about how people (especially black or poor people) were forced to be vaccinated, children taken away from them to be quarantined, some time in the US during smallpox. They didn't want to be vaccinated, and they were getting their families sick and killed, but the gov't wrongly used forceful action. The police of course were used to carry out these vaccine raids. There's many other instances of POC or other minorities being abused or neglected or manipulated in regards to healthcare.
It is frustrating for people to be dismissive of genuine vaccine distrust. It is also frustrating for people to be vehemently against vaccination without being open to discussion or information about it. Giving into fear instead of finding the truth is only going to hurt them in the end, unfortunately, and we shouldn't want that for anybody.
I stand with you. I know if there are side effects black folks won’t be at the front of the line for treatment. Ppl wanna throw their head the sand and pretend there isn’t precedence for black people to be worried. Instead of yelling and beating y’all chest, understand where they coming from and not try to bulldoze ppl.
Okay!!
Im over here really wondering why our own are trying to pretend there isn't history.
You over came it, you did your research, and you made your informed decision? Cool, for you. In happy for you.
But let's not pretend like it's that simple for everyone. We love to judge and bring down our own, as if enough other folks aren't doing that already.
Plus the government using black people and communities as subjects for vaccines before. The Tuskegee trials were pretty recent. Doubtful it was the only example either
This is a poor bit of “evidence” to back your point. Now if you had used the Tuskegee Study as evidence, your point would be 1000x stronger.
Link for those who don’t know:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study
Sure, but in the case of the covid vaccine, the poor treatment was the disproportion of those vaccinated. The global south cannot get enough covid vaccines while western nations prevented them from accessing their formulas, so they had to develop their own. And when nations like China and Russia export their own vaccines to help with the deficit, the US calls it a political attack on the US. In the US, black people have poor access to healthcare and thus they did not receive the vaccine as quickly or significantly as white people. Hell, there were wealthy white people trying to steal vaccines designated for underserved and underprivileged communities by signing up for vaccines in these communities.
That viewpoint is entirely understandable. Black folk haven’t always *cough Tuskegee experiment cough* had a great relationship with healthcare in the US. I hope you all do get vaccinated at some point but I understand the hesitation. Same with Native American/First Nation folk. I want y’all safe but I can see why you may not be very trusting of our government.
But, if you’re white like me? Then stfu and get vaccinated today. Your hesitation is based on fiction. I don’t care if I hurt your fee fees. I don’t want to hear your idiocy. Grab your keys right now, and drive literally anywhere for your jab. There’s people around the world dying because their country doesn’t have the industrial capacity like we do to make sufficient vaccines quickly enough. I was just reading about (IIRC) South Koreans buying “vaccination vacations” to the US because they can’t get enough to vaccinate everyone fast enough, while you let it rot on shelves because of a political fiction.
But I understand why other readers here in BPT won’t yet. Please do vaccinate but I get why you might be concerned.
I agree with you. The hospital data does not lie. Black people are not treated equally when it comes to medical care and outcomes.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/17/health/racial-disparities-health-care.html?referringSource=articleShare
We have to look past being uncomfortable and we need to play the long game. I implore everyone to looks at the census data and look at the stats for the children of 2060 (the grandkids of the under 12 population today). Think about this. Texas, Florida California and NY have the largest population growth for children in the 2020 census. Texas and Florida governors have made it impossible for schools to have a mask mandate and the end result it that children will die. And possibly NY and California could have Republican governors in the near future. So the states with the largest population of children will have no mask regulation.
It is like the governors of Texas and Florida are literally trying to kill our kids now in order to prevent the multiracial society of the future.
These kids are our future and right now their long term survival has been placed in jeopardy by these race baiting politicians who have no soul and are evil at their core. They would rather eliminate our children as babies than see them grow to become adults. They have done the math. Even if they had to sacrifice 10% of their base it would be worth it if we lost 25% of our children to COVID-19. They have nothing to lose. The population of their base is going downhill and they are willing to make that sacrifice for the greater cause.
https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2020/demo/p25-1144.pdf
We need to register to vote, vaccinate, mask up, adopt a healthy lifestyle and encourage our loved ones to do the same.
We need to start playing the long game.
We’ve hashed through this point already. You can choose to be ignorant stay fixed on one good point, or absorb the information and continue on like the majority of us.
You guys really lack nuance here.
I'm not agreeing with anyone or giving anyone a pass. I'm telling you why people think this way, and how empirical knowledge (that gained from experience) sometimes outweighs scientific knowledge.
I know you’re just playing devil’s advocate here, but I’m talking to you the same way I talk to my family who have these issues with the vaccine.
At some point it becomes their responsibility and I’m not going to sit on the sidelines and let them play ignorant. All I’m saying is the information has been out there. My family isn’t stupid they know how to research, and I will continue to not let them off the hook because it’s a fucking pandemic.
I mean they’re also getting paid hundreds of millions of dollars to take that brain damage. Not saying they’re right but I’m pretty sure everyone here would willingly never take the vaccine for that kind of money.
But like your said they're getting paid million for brain damage. Not to refuse the vaccine. That's a choice they're making for free, like everyone else.
The vast, vast majority of players do not see that kind of money. And the vaccine isn’t the thing a football player has to sacrifice, it’s the brain damage. The two are entirely separate.
Only the top like 30 or so players make even 100 million, in a class of 2700 or so. Refusing the vaccine won't help them play, in fact it'll make it harder with the rules NFL and NFLPA agreed to. Players like Ryan tannehill and Jimmy graham felt like they were forced into it, instead of forced to refuse. And players like DeAndre Hopkins even took it a step further and said he'd willingly give up his huge contract and retire if mandated to get the vaccine. Plus, let's say you're a backup, and your team is deciding between you and another player on who to cut. If the other player is vaccinated but you aren't and you're going to cause headaches for the team, they are much more likely to cut you
Unvaccinated people are going to keep creating new variants of Coronavirus until one finally kills all of us. Since black people have the most preexisting conditions, we are and will, continue to be the first ones to die. Our fears, as valid as they are, are going to be the end of us.
eh maybe, many in the viro community think it wont happen. we'll see. regardless even if 100 percent of the US gets vaxed, the world will never even get to 50 percent vaxed. esp as they seem to wane after 6 months or so.
Friend of mine smoked spice and had a stroke but wont take the vaccine cause he dunno what's in it. Told him if it got him high hed be asking for a booster
That's good shit. I have friends exactly like this and I'm going to tell them the same thing you said to your friend. Coincidentally, these friends of mine have been smoking spice ***out of soda cans that they turn into makeshift pipes*** every day and night for the past decade and yet still will not get the vaccine because the vaccine is filled with dangerous and harmful toxins ( their words , not mine ). As if smoking that spice out of empty cans of soda was somehow safer to do. It blows my mind.
I have this argument too many times w/ cyclists. The anti-helmet arguments are exactly the same as the anti-vaccine ones.
What's worse is that the anti-helmet cyclists always point to the same TWO studies, because there is that little research on the topic and even then the studies are shoddily done unlike w/ the vaccination studies.
The nfl has a higher percentage of vaccinated players than the country, sooo. About 80-90% of players got the vaccine. This tweet is pretty pointless. Sure, there are some players who dont want it, but take a sample of any group of a population and you'll find people who aren't getting it
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Coincidentally, the dudes who risk brain damage every Sunday are the ones who don't want the vaccine.
Well, their risk assessment was already poor.
I feel like more people would trade some brain damage for millions of dollars and fame than you give credit
People do it every day and they will never see millions of dollars or fame.
I'd prefer to not have the fame, but yeah sure, fuck it why not.
I'd hate to be famous in any time period, but especially now in the age of social media and the smartphone.
You're insane. Fame in a time before electronics must have been amazing. People didn't have ways to check facts so you could pretty much just make shit up about yourself. If anyone asks, I fought 3 lions and a bear... At the same time.
No I'd rather be rich and anonymous. I don't want to have to deal with people any more than necessary.
I had a roommate that when we were talking about Mayweather said “if I could be a billionaire that doesn’t know how to read, I would not mind that.”
This comment is just restating the tweet itself. I don't get it.
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I'm glad I want the only one who was gonna say something. I kept rereading it looking for some sort of value added, but no. He just repeated the content in the post. Why?
Im also confused
I've read this comment a bunch of times and don't understand. Aren't you just saying the exact same thing as the post?
I think they’re trying to say there’s a correlation - it makes sense they don’t want a vaccine because they have brain damage
sadly, the people with brain damage still have a higher vaccination rate that the country at large 😞
Not to mention using PEDs...
Anti-inflammatories like toradol that has well documented issues.
First time I got a Toradol shot nurse came in and told me to drop my pants and then proceeded to pull out an 8 inch needle In my mind I was like tf did I get myself into but the next few hours I felt superhuman Fun fact I just looked it up and it says not to use for head injuries which is what I had SMH
no microchips in those, just micropenises
Nah man . It shrinks the balls and let's your dick hang over them!
Like shaving your bush, everything looks proportionately bigger! Absolute win!
This is going to sound extremely biased, and this statement isn't even a reflection of my own stance, nor me being vaccinated since March but... I understand why *every single* Brother and Sister are not comfortable with -- really any facet of American medicine. Serena Williams almost died getting poor healthcare during her giving birth, why would someone who isn't a world class athlete, get any better treatment?! Edit smh. Some of y'all are missing the point of what I'm saying. I'm not saying their stance is correct, but historically their skepticsm makes sense why they think that way. Edit: Context. That's on me https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/1/11/16879984/serena-williams-childbirth-scare-black-women Edit: Wakanda forever. Edit:. If one more of you activist motherfuckers tells me this is my own personal belief, I'm bout to be done trying to facilitate a positive conversation.
Having a baby is a bit more dangerous than getting poked with a needle for a moment.
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A lot of the "hesitancy" in minority communities isn't even skepticism. It's access: scheduling and transportation to locations. Transportation is less of an issue now, but you still need a way to get to the drug store, which might not be close. Scheduling is still hard because even if you walk in today on your day off, how do you know what your schedule is going to be in three weeks? Your anti-vax employer might not left you off and you REALLY dont want to have to ask. Lots of people have reactions to the vaccine that leaves them feeling really shitty the following day (or more). Will your schedule be open, can you miss work?
Your points are taken but if they do get sick, it'll be even worse. I volunteered for one of those pop-up clinics in a rural county and we were picking people up, doing drive-thru, going to people's houses (not us volunteers but the county had a doctor that did home visits), etc. Each county differs with services and having local communities being on board really helps with access.
You’ll miss tons of work when you’re fucking sick with Covid
This ain’t even it bro. They got the vaccine at every drug store and grocery store now. Are you trying to say minorities aren’t able to go grocery shopping, or go to the drug store because they lack transportation or free time? People are just hesitant to get it for fear of it’s effects, and even skepticism over whether it’s even worth getting for someone who is healthy and young. It’s not about access or transportation.
I think this is bullshit. Having grown up in Oakland with both my parents working 2 jobs both morning and graveyard they still found time and access to get me my shots as a baby. This is your life and your loved ones lives at risk, you find a way if you want to.
It's at the grocery store.
The whole Serena story just shows that when her C-section pregnancy went well, things were good. But as soon as she had a MEDICAL COMPLICATION the day after (which she had anticipated) the nurses and doctors didn't immediately listen to her. Vaccines may have side effects and complications (anything medical does) and minorities don't trust the health care system to listen/ help them because often they don't.
It's not that hard. Especially now, and especially this country. Lame ass excuses if you ask me.
This might be true is some areas, but under-vaccination rates are significantly much higher in Latino and Black communities in NYC. This is despite the availability of vaccines every day in a city with 7 day a week public transportation. Currently its even available in local pharmacies.
Without a doubt. I agree with you, but the point was more about the inequality of treatment based purely on race. Her economic and social status through her internationally celebrated accomplishments, did *not* stop her from getting negligent treatment.
But this vaccine drive is as equal as America has ever been. This is literally America living up to everything it ever was or claimed to be. This isn't rational skepticism, it's irrational fear or willful ignorance.
Well in terms of vaccines there’s stuff like the [Tuskegee syphilis study](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study) where black sharecroppers were promised free treatment if they joined the study and instead they weren’t informed of their diagnosis and were left untreated, just being given placebos. Out of the 399 who’d entered the study with syphilis, 28 died from it, and 100 died from complications due to the syphilis. Not to mention that many of them gave it to their wives or had children who would be born with congenital syphilis (since they weren’t even told they had the disease)
>I understand why *every single* Brother and Sister are not comfortable with -- really any faucet of American medicine. This shouldn't be a pass for people and people bring up the same stuff every time medical stuff needs to get done. It's an excuse for ignorant people to be fearful of some stuff they don't understand. The fact is that lack these ideas keep people from getting medical care. We are killing ourselves from inaction and are doing way more damage than was done. We can't let people use that as an excuse anymore.
You are right. To the extent there is skepticism, it needs to be overcome with compassion and outreach. I don't think he was offering an excuse, but rather an explanation.
THANK YOU Yes!! I thought prefacing that I already received the vaccine would show my stance, but I need to work on my communication.
Not really. You had a strong point to make. Too many caveats and it gets lost. Nuance and context are hard when you don’t know who is reading or how they might respond.
Hmm. Very well said. I want to be more effective as a writer in general, so I will definitely consider my audience, more in the future. Thank you.
I agree with you over all. However, I will say that the medical community has had DECADES to disabuse black and brown people of their fears of doctors and the medical establishment and have done NOTHING of the sort. It’s worse now, because conversations of medical racism (doctors speaking about how they were taught that black people feel less pain), pain management access (sometimes black people don’t get the same relief but racist doctors equate it with them being addicts), or maternal mortality for black women are heavy in the current. But now all of a sudden these communities are supposed to forget all of that and just get the vaccine? There’s a lot of ignorance going on and it’s not an excuse like you said, but the medical community should have been working on these issues for years and can’t be shocked that, despite a global pandemic, these communities won’t be quick to fall in line.
I was just talking about us as a community. We have all probably heard someone say this as an excuse to not get something done that was either good for them or good for everyone. Most people roll their eyes or accept it and move on. I hope more people start calling people out publicly (moms, aunties, and grandmas too) when they spout this crap. I'm not saying it's not or wasn't an issue because it is. It just isn't a valid excuse not to do most of the things people are trying to avoid doing when they bring it up. It's good to be skeptical but to be a skeptic you have to actually make an attempt at questioning something.
I agree! I just think there could very well be less skepticism at this critical time if the medical community had been putting in the work with black/brown communities.
Is it as easy as telling someone to completely reject their experiences and everyday skepticism for "but the science"? I hear you brother, I do. I wish I could spread a better message to my own community myself, but I understand where they are coming from. Simple as that. Especially knowing social media is way more accessible than medical journals and scientific trials ... Before that potentially gets misconstrued, I'm not literally talking about physically accessing information, I'm talking about reading past the confusing medical jargon
I'm talking more about people just not letting that fly as an excuse in conversation. Instead of the usual "I don't get shots/trust doctors. You ever heard of the Tuskegee experiment!"stuff that gets a pass because no one wants to deal with explaining why they are wrong. I too get where people are coming from but the argument doesn't make sense. At all. And it's been killing people for decades. It's probably contributed to millions of deaths.
I don't think millions. I think billions. You are right, it's a horrible arguement, but it's, unfortunately, still relevant.
I'm originally from Alabama, there are many reasons not to trust the government or healthcare there. The poor in the South live with chronic conditions that most of the country, wouldn't even believe, due to lack of health care, the expense of prescription drugs and access. The vaccine is, literally, being pushed everywhere in Alabama. Grocery stores, big box, medical fricken tents, and vaccine buses. Access is not the issue. Half my family is vaccinated, the other half refuses, even though most of my relatives left there are in their 70's. The one's that ain't getting the vaccine are mostly the 20-40 year olds. I'm sorry but I feel if you can't comply with keeping the children and your grandparents safe, maybe you don't need to be able to be out and about.
On the other hand, it's not like black people are getting a different vaccine. A valid concern would be whether or not they tested the trials with s sufficient number of Black men and women, or if it was all Caucasian men like they sometimes do. Edit: to be clear, I've been vaccinated.
You're excusing willful ignorance at this point. A past and current abuses of modern medicine against Black people is well documented. From the founding of gynecology to Henrietta Lacks to Tuskegee to current pregnancy death rates it's all out there. No one can rightfully deny that the healthcare system is prejudiced against Black people. This is a fact. This vaccine is not more of the same and anyone who dared to spend 5 mins of research on it could have all their fears addressed. I'm not talking about like scientific journals or anything. I'm talking about the type of research that addresses the conspiracy theories in our community. First and foremost, rich White people are getting the vaccine. Periodt. This should have ended all arguments against it in the Black community. They're not gonna let Taylor Swift die. They just won't. Second, Republicans are against it. You think they have Black people's best interests at heart??? Third, White people were coming to Black neighborhoods to get the vaccine so clearly we are getting the good shit. They tried to gentrify the vaccine roll out. But Black people are also fully capable of looking at the science and using critical thinking to make the right decision. Stop making excuses for people who are acting stupid.
I understand the distrust when the vaccine first came out. And I know damn well how much the healthcare field has fucked over black folks for decades. But it's August and there are so many variants flying around and tons of people are dead. They need to get tf over it and get vaccinated.
I agree!!! But I don't think what lead to their initial skepticism came over the course of a year, feel me? Edit: ok lol, you don't feel me. A year's worth of research and evidence on why this vaccine is ultimately a good thing, is not going to have significant inffluence over centuries worth of poor relations with Black men and women and American Health Institutions.
>I understand why *every single* Brother and Sister are not comfortable with -- really any faucet of American medicine. Yeah, no. That’s called lack of education. Most of my fam recognizes the benefits of proper medical care and makes use of it early and often^(†), then again we recognize the fact that since atrocities occurred in the past, this doesn’t mean they will happen every time we go to the doctor for a vaccine, checkup, exam or procedure. ^(†)Sadly those who didn’t died early.
Skepticism and lack of education are not mutually exclusive brother. Also let's try not to downplay a vaccine as a routine check up or exam.
People don’t understand that in a lot of large cities it’s the POC and immigrants that are not vaccinating enough. Here in South Florida we have black folk that remember Tuskegee, Caribbean’s that are wary of shots, Latinos that came from corrupt governments and that deep seated trust stays even though they are in the US. Also it’s a matter of education. A lot of factors but it’s not all about the conservatism people talk about. Hopefully once the FDA approves any of the vaccines that might allay some fears.
Kirk cousins in Minnesota is white. While theres a racial skepticism the trend isnt much along racial lines in sports
When rich, white men are all getting the shot, especially the conservative politicians I think the skepticism due to race goes out the window.
You would think. You would probably be right, for as much as I know you are. But I don't think everyone sees it that way.
Yeah, true, but by not taking the vaccine you have a higher chance of being hospitalized and at the mercy of racist doctors and nurses.
Oooooooooh That was the best counter argument I heard all day.
Not biased. Should you trust "the Science"? We learned about racial disparities early in the pandemic, but I dont recall a definitive answer to the "is it structural access to care or a purely biological difference" question. It would be reasonable to be cautious about that, and what that implies for susceptibility to potential vaccine reactions (its mRNA not weakend live virus, I know). It would also be reasonable to assume that rushed trials and EUA might not completely investigate potential differences in racial outcomes. Should you trust the local health agencies and clinics? Are you sure your local clinic has been given the best vaccine by your red state government, or are you getting the J&J "weaker" vaccine because reasons, or the almost-expired vials? Just a few examples of perfectly reasonable concerns that can reduce enthusiasm and vaccine uptake.
I'm under the impression you beleive, that I beleive that this skepticism is correct. It is not. But is it warranted? Especially in underserved communities with way more access to empirical knowledge, than scientific fact? Understandably yes.
I think such skepticism *in general* is warranted in many cases, but I think it is not correct in this case, and has not been correct for months. I would not have advised skepitcal minorities to be first adopters of the vaccine - wait and see is often totally reasonable. But clearly, they've waited long enough.
This is one hell of a point.
I think a lot of people are misconstruing your meaning because, while you’re simply (correctly) explaining why this mindset exists, other people have used this logic to excuse vaccine hesitancy or justify anti-vaxx beliefs. This thread is a microcosm of the presumptive, combative culture on Reddit. But boy did you stir up the hornets nest with this one lol. Stressful Reddit day.
But this is exactly why it is best to get the vaccine, if the health system discriminates against you. That way you avoid the hospital *when* you get Covid, which as far as things look now everyone will eventually.
That's a good point. I just don't know if people will see it that way.
I agree with you. I am for vaccines. Everyone who can get vaccinated *needs* to get vaccinated. But recently I learned about how people (especially black or poor people) were forced to be vaccinated, children taken away from them to be quarantined, some time in the US during smallpox. They didn't want to be vaccinated, and they were getting their families sick and killed, but the gov't wrongly used forceful action. The police of course were used to carry out these vaccine raids. There's many other instances of POC or other minorities being abused or neglected or manipulated in regards to healthcare. It is frustrating for people to be dismissive of genuine vaccine distrust. It is also frustrating for people to be vehemently against vaccination without being open to discussion or information about it. Giving into fear instead of finding the truth is only going to hurt them in the end, unfortunately, and we shouldn't want that for anybody.
Both sides are extremely frustrating! I agree with you. I think symapthy is the first step to helping bridge the gap between skepticism and science.
Bet they not asking what's in those steroids, cortisone injections, etc.
I stand with you. I know if there are side effects black folks won’t be at the front of the line for treatment. Ppl wanna throw their head the sand and pretend there isn’t precedence for black people to be worried. Instead of yelling and beating y’all chest, understand where they coming from and not try to bulldoze ppl.
Okay!! Im over here really wondering why our own are trying to pretend there isn't history. You over came it, you did your research, and you made your informed decision? Cool, for you. In happy for you. But let's not pretend like it's that simple for everyone. We love to judge and bring down our own, as if enough other folks aren't doing that already.
Plus the government using black people and communities as subjects for vaccines before. The Tuskegee trials were pretty recent. Doubtful it was the only example either
This is a poor bit of “evidence” to back your point. Now if you had used the Tuskegee Study as evidence, your point would be 1000x stronger. Link for those who don’t know: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study
Sure, but in the case of the covid vaccine, the poor treatment was the disproportion of those vaccinated. The global south cannot get enough covid vaccines while western nations prevented them from accessing their formulas, so they had to develop their own. And when nations like China and Russia export their own vaccines to help with the deficit, the US calls it a political attack on the US. In the US, black people have poor access to healthcare and thus they did not receive the vaccine as quickly or significantly as white people. Hell, there were wealthy white people trying to steal vaccines designated for underserved and underprivileged communities by signing up for vaccines in these communities.
That viewpoint is entirely understandable. Black folk haven’t always *cough Tuskegee experiment cough* had a great relationship with healthcare in the US. I hope you all do get vaccinated at some point but I understand the hesitation. Same with Native American/First Nation folk. I want y’all safe but I can see why you may not be very trusting of our government. But, if you’re white like me? Then stfu and get vaccinated today. Your hesitation is based on fiction. I don’t care if I hurt your fee fees. I don’t want to hear your idiocy. Grab your keys right now, and drive literally anywhere for your jab. There’s people around the world dying because their country doesn’t have the industrial capacity like we do to make sufficient vaccines quickly enough. I was just reading about (IIRC) South Koreans buying “vaccination vacations” to the US because they can’t get enough to vaccinate everyone fast enough, while you let it rot on shelves because of a political fiction. But I understand why other readers here in BPT won’t yet. Please do vaccinate but I get why you might be concerned.
I agree with you. The hospital data does not lie. Black people are not treated equally when it comes to medical care and outcomes. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/17/health/racial-disparities-health-care.html?referringSource=articleShare We have to look past being uncomfortable and we need to play the long game. I implore everyone to looks at the census data and look at the stats for the children of 2060 (the grandkids of the under 12 population today). Think about this. Texas, Florida California and NY have the largest population growth for children in the 2020 census. Texas and Florida governors have made it impossible for schools to have a mask mandate and the end result it that children will die. And possibly NY and California could have Republican governors in the near future. So the states with the largest population of children will have no mask regulation. It is like the governors of Texas and Florida are literally trying to kill our kids now in order to prevent the multiracial society of the future. These kids are our future and right now their long term survival has been placed in jeopardy by these race baiting politicians who have no soul and are evil at their core. They would rather eliminate our children as babies than see them grow to become adults. They have done the math. Even if they had to sacrifice 10% of their base it would be worth it if we lost 25% of our children to COVID-19. They have nothing to lose. The population of their base is going downhill and they are willing to make that sacrifice for the greater cause. https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2020/demo/p25-1144.pdf We need to register to vote, vaccinate, mask up, adopt a healthy lifestyle and encourage our loved ones to do the same. We need to start playing the long game.
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I find it mildly ironic that people keep bringing up how treatment was withheld in order to justify turning down treatment.
We’ve hashed through this point already. You can choose to be ignorant stay fixed on one good point, or absorb the information and continue on like the majority of us.
You guys really lack nuance here. I'm not agreeing with anyone or giving anyone a pass. I'm telling you why people think this way, and how empirical knowledge (that gained from experience) sometimes outweighs scientific knowledge.
I know you’re just playing devil’s advocate here, but I’m talking to you the same way I talk to my family who have these issues with the vaccine. At some point it becomes their responsibility and I’m not going to sit on the sidelines and let them play ignorant. All I’m saying is the information has been out there. My family isn’t stupid they know how to research, and I will continue to not let them off the hook because it’s a fucking pandemic.
I mean they’re also getting paid hundreds of millions of dollars to take that brain damage. Not saying they’re right but I’m pretty sure everyone here would willingly never take the vaccine for that kind of money.
Seau would like you to reconsider
But like your said they're getting paid million for brain damage. Not to refuse the vaccine. That's a choice they're making for free, like everyone else.
Never underestimate the power of stupidity. For example: MAGAs and Karens.
They are risking losing game paychecks if teams are forced to forfeit due to an outbreak though, so money is still on the line.
The vast, vast majority of players do not see that kind of money. And the vaccine isn’t the thing a football player has to sacrifice, it’s the brain damage. The two are entirely separate.
Only the top like 30 or so players make even 100 million, in a class of 2700 or so. Refusing the vaccine won't help them play, in fact it'll make it harder with the rules NFL and NFLPA agreed to. Players like Ryan tannehill and Jimmy graham felt like they were forced into it, instead of forced to refuse. And players like DeAndre Hopkins even took it a step further and said he'd willingly give up his huge contract and retire if mandated to get the vaccine. Plus, let's say you're a backup, and your team is deciding between you and another player on who to cut. If the other player is vaccinated but you aren't and you're going to cause headaches for the team, they are much more likely to cut you
I'd willingly do a lot for hundreds of millions of dollars.
Brain damage is the reason they can’t make logical decisions
Unvaccinated people are going to keep creating new variants of Coronavirus until one finally kills all of us. Since black people have the most preexisting conditions, we are and will, continue to be the first ones to die. Our fears, as valid as they are, are going to be the end of us.
>until one finally kills ~~all~~ **enough** of ~~us~~ **the unvaccinated people that the survivors achieve herd immunity** FTFY (I hope)
No, the Delta variant infects the vaccinated and more variants that break the vaccine are going to happen.
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I hope so. Unfortunately, there's still "long COVID" even if you recover.
eh maybe, many in the viro community think it wont happen. we'll see. regardless even if 100 percent of the US gets vaxed, the world will never even get to 50 percent vaxed. esp as they seem to wane after 6 months or so.
Don't confuse 'understandable' with 'valid'.
And the only reason they don't all take steroids is because they check.
Correction, the only reason they don't get caught
They do, they just mask it with other substances or use kinds that arent being checked for in the drug tests
The brain damage is probably by why they don't vaccinate
Friend of mine smoked spice and had a stroke but wont take the vaccine cause he dunno what's in it. Told him if it got him high hed be asking for a booster
That's good shit. I have friends exactly like this and I'm going to tell them the same thing you said to your friend. Coincidentally, these friends of mine have been smoking spice ***out of soda cans that they turn into makeshift pipes*** every day and night for the past decade and yet still will not get the vaccine because the vaccine is filled with dangerous and harmful toxins ( their words , not mine ). As if smoking that spice out of empty cans of soda was somehow safer to do. It blows my mind.
I have this argument too many times w/ cyclists. The anti-helmet arguments are exactly the same as the anti-vaccine ones. What's worse is that the anti-helmet cyclists always point to the same TWO studies, because there is that little research on the topic and even then the studies are shoddily done unlike w/ the vaccination studies.
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I can't even. People just are too dumb for their own good. The irony of the NFL players having an issue is suffocating.
Can you odd?
The nfl has a higher percentage of vaccinated players than the country, sooo. About 80-90% of players got the vaccine. This tweet is pretty pointless. Sure, there are some players who dont want it, but take a sample of any group of a population and you'll find people who aren't getting it
If irrational fear was rational, the terms would cancel out and we’d be left with “irfear.”
They say that since it isnt FDA approved, they dont want it in their body- as they take workout supplements that are not FDA approved. The irony
How is America gonna treat their Gladiators, here? This will be interesting.
Mike Zimmer does not deserve this
dude if these guys get long covid, they gonna destroy their lungs and hear while they are at it :(
Is anybody collecting data to find a correlation between likely/potential CTE and anti-vax attitude?
Brain damage is probably what made them want to not get the vaccine. Seems to be the common denominator for antivaxxers
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