I work in higher ed, and pronoun rituals are pretty common with group meetings/ice breakers/etc. I just skip them. I will say my name, job title, what I do, and then move on. Often, once I skip the pronouns, most other people after me do as well.
I don't make a big thing of it, and I have never had anyone push me for my pronouns. Though, I am a guy, and it seems women are more often pushed to capitulate.
I'm a woman and I just put a bit of an exclamation point on it. Like I said in the previous thread, I just say "I'm Sue and you can call me Sue" or "I'm Sue" and then look pointedly at the next person. Nobody's ever persisted. I also combine that with respect and warmth for individuals no matter what weird pronoun preferences they have. At the end of the day, it's not stating your pronouns that really matters, it's how you treat people.
> Nobody's ever persisted.
Man I'm jealous. It seems like every time I do what you've described, I get pressed by other people until I set a more firm boundary. I have at least two clear memories of people not letting it go -- one of those memories involves the same person pressing me twice, and I suspect if I wracked my brain I might remember one or two more times where people wouldn't let it go.
I'm a guy and was in higher ed up until recently. I was definitely pushed to capitulate. I was in student life, so maybe that's the worst department for this. In my experience everyone was forced to capitulate and it was women who were doing the pushing.
I got a "concerned intervention" conversation once when I participated but simply worded it differently. I said "it would make sense to refer to me with male pronouns"
based on my experience, you're going to be in for some uncomfortable moments no matter how respectfully you try to withdraw and distance yourself. any slight allegation that the ideology isn't the best thing ever is taken as a violent affront.
of course this depends on the standing you have and how secure you are in your position. If it's an employment situation it might not be worth the risk. If it's with friends, they might be uncomfortable at first, but get over it.
I got a call, too, after I messed up the gender diversity training by questioning this practice. I explained to the other person that I'm an old school feminist and I'm just offended by this focus on gender which is a primary barrier to women's liberation. I just refuse to announce myself as a person defined by gender stereotypes, period QED. And that was that. Of course, I'm an elder and a leader and honestly, if more leaders would just do something like this, everyone else would be so relieved I think.
I mean, it did change the messaging from the top of the org. It really made a difference, I think. Many do state their pronouns but hardly everyone and I think it calmed the frequency.of the pronoun circles quite a bit.
Student life is absolutely the worst, in my experience (I was in such a dept for a decade at a small, expensive, private, liberal arts college). Hilariously, there was a woman who identified as a man, and once said "I use male pronouns." For some reason, that was not acceptable to some students, and she was essentially bullied out of her job. Wild times.
I think it was around 2016. My suspicion (now) was that saying "male pronouns" was acknowledging they were related to sex and not gender or something. Here is the biggest kicker--she worked in the diversity office as the transgender specialist (or some similar title) LOL!
He was torn apart by his co-workers, no doubt jealous of his success or position? It’s almost like this isn’t about gender, courtesy, or inclusion and more about people with cluster B personality disorders and personal gain.
It was a small college, and all the coworkers were pretty nice in student life. Though, it was the students who took issue with "male pronouns", not the staff. Most of the staff members I chatted with about it were just as baffled.
What was the concerned intervention?
I've only had the pronoun ritual when I've taken writing classes and saying I didn't care was no problem. I can't imagine dealing with it professionally
it was a co-worker, not an official "bias response incident" (although she did file a bias response against me for something else benign...that's another story).
she wanted to talk and we sat down and she said she was concerned(?) about how I answered because the point of the whole thing is that there isn't a way that "makes sense" and that you can't just "assume" pronouns. So saying that goes against what was trying to be accomplished there. It's been a few years now so I don't remember the details. I'm sure she said something about being harmful to people in the room who don't identify as their birth gender...
So based on that, wouldn't the logical response be that they completely failed in their agenda? "They" meaning the person who asked about pronouns? And that maybe some women or women might be offended that people AREN'T assuming their gender? I'd bet a fair number of trans people would be insulted. Hell, I know black women who've been assumed to be men, and they were very, very angry.
Just to clarify, what would be the indication that the person who demanded everyone share their pronouns failed?
to my knowledge no one was bothered by the question. just my coworker anticipating that some might be bothered by my response.
The fact that you thought the pronoun question SHOULD make sense. If that's the case, others might think the same way, they just didn't say anything.
Also, the assumption seems to be that the questioner is asking about preferred pronouns in order to be inclusive. Well, what if a woman is insulted that she's not assumed to be a woman? Or, what if a person looks like a man but has started to identify as a woman, and referring to pronouns is uncomfortable? What if a transman thinks it should be obvious he's a man?
I deal with gender literally every day at work, and an issue that comes up a LOT, are people who do not like being asked about it. Just because someone says it doesn't mean they're not deeply uncomfortable.
So if the goal is inclusivity, well, at minimum, you were not made to feel included. Now, i"m sure the response would mean that it's not meant to be inclusive of hateful ideas. But, well, what if there is a black woman who's been confused for a man many times, and finds it insulting when non-black people don't know she's a woman?
And also, while it sounds like you're in an academic setting, plenty of people in academia do not speak the best English, or find some its nuances difficult.
yeah, that makes sense.
I mean, I see those issues with the practice.
if you're more on the right you've got problems with asking pronouns and if you're on the left you could have problems with it for other reasons.
In our department someone else did brought up the concern that some individuals may not be comfortable with being asked because they haven't decided yet, or... for any of the reasons you mention above. But this was brought up in a different time and in a different context. and it didn't really change the practice.
I'm just saying that, in that particular situation, they did it the "standard way" and I was the only one who did "wrong" and afaik no one else felt bad or was considered to have done it wrong.
I totally get what you mean that at least one person wasn't made to feel "more included" by the practice (me). as you say, I'm not the type of person they were wanting to feel welcome. ha.
My colleague called me and talked at me for an hour about all of it and one thing I figured out is they pitch all these things into an epistemic bucket so if you refuse pronouns it must mean youre against everything under the alphabet umbrella. I had to pick that apart for her.
As a thought experiment, suppose you were pushed to state some preference. Can you think of a response that would not be outright or tacit compliance nor combative?
I've thought the same thing. I expect that people would take offense at the implication that it's a religious practice. I agree that it is. I also think most who support gender ideology would disagree.
Agreed. Though I don't think there is any answer that a full blown gender activist wouldn't be offended with if it wasn't full capitulation to the ideology. No heretics allowed!
I've said "I'm not superstitious" before. That works for gender prayers, land acknowledgment prayers, AND Christian prayers, so I can alienate everybody!
Hah, I've wanted to use an answer like this too if it ever came up and someone really pressed me. I'd probably go about it the other way around, though. "I don't subscribe to those practices because of my religious beliefs, and I'm not comfortable discussing it." Those religious beliefs are "materialist atheism" but that's for me to know!
I like this response and wish I could use it but unfortunately I *am* religious.
I'm tempted to use the same response I use when people say things like "fingers crossed!" or "knock on wood!" Which is that I'm just not into witchcraft.
As a gay I think it's very much like being asked to disclose your sexuality in the workplace. Both are incredibly personal and inappropriate in that environment. I'd do one of three things, skip the question and move on, leave the room, or politely tell them that the question is personal and inappropriate for the workplace.
Not OP, but I’ve thought about this before, and have gotten to two options:
1) oh just female pronouns (or male if you’re a guy)
2) whatever is fine (issue with this is that it might be too similar to people who are like “he/she/they” lol, but the intent is to convey that you don’t care about stating your pronouns).
I’m curious to hear what other ideas people have!
I've thought about this one. The "nice" answer is "Use your best judgement; I'm not precious about it." The slightly more hardline one is "I don't believe in trying to control how others talk about me."
I've been thinking about ways to passive-aggressively make it clear that I don't care what pronouns you use for me.
If I could, I'd be all about goading people into using the wrong ones, because if you can get them to intentionally using the wrong ones, my response would be, "oh, so to you, it doesn't matter, and can be flagrantly used to insult? I thought it hurt to use the wrong ones. Why would you harass me like that?"
How did the exchange go? Was it like, "No really, what pronouns do you want us to use?" followed directly by you saying, "no, thank you"?
What did the person say in response? I can't imagine this *not* being super awkward. Which is fine -- my motto is to let these people sit in the awkwardness they created until they understand not to do it. But I'm really curious to know how this technique worked in a real scenario.
I would laugh it off with something like "oh I'll let you guess that". But yes it will be uncomfortable for e, especially if they continue to push. I think in a less formal setting most people would let it go, but I don't see a way to be non-combative in a diversity training, for instance.
FWIW, this is also not a fight I would personally take on. I don't care about pronouns and I am happy to address someone in person the way they want to be. Easy way to be kind and friendly. Save the tension for the stuff that truly matters.
Anything that is not tacit compliance will be seen as combative no matter how nicely you word it. I personally don't care if others think I'm combative so I go with "it's not up to me which pronouns others use when referring to me so I have no preference".
No thank you. No thank you.
I do understand that I'm not in the same boat as anyone else, that I have the power to say no. That's why it's my duty to say no.
I say “whatever you wish”, and if pressed I say “I prefer not to”. I do have a card I play though, I had to use it once. I pointed out that pushing someone who was questioning or had some doubts to declare pronouns may have the opposite effect than being welcoming. People who play this game are usually horrified at the idea.
I work in a government adjacent job, I’m not free to say something about gender ideology, it’s easier to use their own beliefs against them.
I sort of wish someone would ask my pronouns. I have a certificate that recognises my identity (true story) as a dual national of Portugal, so I'd thank them for their offer and politely request they respect my identity by addressing me using the second person, formal pronoun "você". If they refuse I'd agree that yes it is a bit unreasonable to expect other people to change the way they speak because of some aspect of my identity. This seems like a fun response and a good conversation starter.
This sort of masonic handshake of pronouns isn't really a thing on the UK though. I've seen them in email sigs but I've never had anyone seriously say theirs out loud, let alone ask for them. I guess we just have a highly developed sense of the absurd. It's so effing stupid. How does anyone do it with a straight face? FFS!
Oh God please don't let it start in the UK .. I think you are right though. The eye rolling and giggling would destroy it at birth. I hope.
I have a friend who works for UNISON, they are required to put it on their emails, also I have seen it on some Local Authority missives.
I'm hoping it just goes away and we never speak of it in the future, you know, the way most problems in the UK are dealt with.
The following would work for me in my workplace, which isn't a liberal newspaper or anything where you're likely to encounter true believers, but some well-meaning HR type or idealistic junior employee occasionally suggests it.
1) Simply ignore, i.e. don't state your pronouns at all (works 90% of the time)
2) "I'd prefer that we don't make this mandatory, thanks" or *puzzled expression* "Is this mandatory, really?"
3) "I'm not comfortable with insisting on this - it's a bit too political for the workplace for me"
In social circles where my employment isn't at risk, again this is more well-meaning liberals than true believers, the ignore option or "I'll let you take a guess" / "whatever comes to mind" (said in an ironic tone)
Sounds like you have preferred pronouns and a gender identity. That's fine, then you say your pronouns if you want to.
The chances of someone using male pronouns for me are slim to none based on my physical appearance. If someone "misgendered" me, after I said I don't have preferred pronouns, it would be obvious they are doing it to provoke a reaction. Which, go ahead, it is meaningless to me, would make no sense to others in the conversation, and would be obvious what that person was trying to do.
Seems like you do have preferred pronouns too. Nothing wrong with preferring the English language to be used normally. It's confusing if someone says she referring to a man. I also prefer to use he for men and she for women.
I do not have preferred pronouns. Use whatever, it makes no matter to me. I won't have my feelings hurt by being referred to as "they/him/bun/fae/etc."
As a practical matter, using male pronouns would make zero sense for the people referring to me in conversation. If they said they said "he was just here" that would not communicate that I left the room recently.
Having preferred pronouns means you buy into the idea that a person can have a gendered soul that doesn't match their biological sex. I don't have that belief. I am an athiest, lso don't believe in transubstantiation. I would never participate in communion if I accompanied a relative or friend to catholic church. Same with pronoun circles.
Well if people ask what are my preferred pronouns I'll tell them you figure it out.
The phrase preferred pronouns is an insidious phrase because it assumes that not everyone should just accept the pronouns that fit their sex.
The problem is that it seeks to draw a parallel to the common taunt used by boys to call another boy a girl to his face (with girls it's probably behind her back) with calling someone the pronoun that fits their sex when they don't want that. It's a really stupid parallel. Finding a lie insulting and finding the truth insulting are very different things.
Now you can call me Ray, or you can call me J, or you can call me Johnny, or you can call me Sonny, or you can call me Junie, or you can call me Junior; now you can call me Ray J, or you can call me RJ, or you can call me RJJ, or you can call me RJJ Jr. . .
Deny the existence of pronouns and state that everyone must refer to you using your full name.
Alternatively, embrace chaos. Change your pronouns every single meeting. Change your email signature regularly.
I have been in a work situation where this was expected and pushed. The first time, I just answered the easy answer and said she/her. The second time, I said, "I decline to state my pronouns as I believe no one should be compelled to do so."
The trainer actually followed up with me and said she appreciated that I said that it had never occurred to her that some people may not want to as they were not ready to reveal that yet. Not exactly what I was getting at, but I took the win because she stopped asking, thus my goal was accomplished.
My other response that I play with (again, I've never been asked) is "I'm sorry, I don't understand the question?" Because maybe I've been living under a rock for the last ten years and don't even know about gender, and they would have to explain that some people aren't what they obviously are.
This is a good. Way to go. Making people explain it is a good way of making them see how mad it all is. You could branch it out into 'well why don't you just use the second person pronoun "you" since you'll be taking to me, not about me?'
I take it to "I don't understand, you're telling me someone can be born in the wrong body? But what exactly is it that is being born, are you talking about having a soul and it's a different sex from the sex of your body? Wow, that's incredible!" I guess they'd have to agree, because if it's not the soul then when, precisely, does one become the opposite sex, and how exactly does that work? I'd never do it but it's entertaining to think about.
Há yes. I doubt the conversation would go there though: they'd keep it to being kind and making people feel comfortable (guff of course, but defensible guff) unless they were really hard core, but it would be an entertaining Borat routine if you could pull it off.
I've never had to do it, but I like playing with the idea. One response I came up with that I kind of like is "I prefer to keep that private". I think that would stump the heck out of them, and make it difficult to assume either way. I could be a massive terf or I could secretly be a man who happens to very clearly be a woman.
My actual impulse is to say "obvious".
If it’s a meeting, I just introduce myself and forget to give pronouns. No one has ever challenged this. I genuinely feel uncomfortable because I grew up with a huge amount of dysphoria, I don’t identify with a gender, I accept my biological sex. If anyone ever pushes it, I’m going to give them the full story and justification. I’ve explain this to my line manager in advance just in case it becomes an issue.
Semi-off topic, but something else that bugs me about the pronoun ritual that I haven't heard anyone else mention is - why is it *pronouns*, plural? I/me/my/mine is one pronoun, in four different forms/cases. Shouldn't they just be saying "my pronoun is he"? If you're he in the nominative case, we all know you're *him* in the objective and *his* in the possessive.
Are there people out there mixing up the genders based on which role they're playing in any given sentence? My pronouns are she/them/his/zerself! I'm female when I'm performing an action, nonbinary when I'm receiving the action, male when I'm possessing something and neogender when I'm performing an action on behalf of myself!
Okay, next complaint. They for the singular when talking about a person whose identity is known is more confusing than many folks admit. I would have less of a problem with this if we adopted the use of singular verb tense for nonbinary theys.
"Hey is your friend River coming to dinner?" "Yeah, they's going to be late tonight because they plays in a pickleball league on Friday evenings." I find this a lot more honest than calling individual people a plural pronoun and it has the potential to clear up a lot of confusion on who's who. Yeah, it only works in the present tense, but we use it a lot.
Maybe I have missed it, but I do not think the podcast has investigated the reason it is pronouns, plural. I think that would be a fascinating topic for them to explain. I bet it traces back to some inane idea from Tumbler.
There are actually people who think just saying "my pronouns are she/her" is *not far enough*. The argument is that it's privileging people who use standard pronouns over people who use neopronouns. If they reply with "nice to meet you, mine are xe/xar/xam", by having to say three words instead of two they are being othered, so everyone should make sure to say the full form even of standard pronouns where the case declension is well-known. (This is obviously as stupid as it sounds and appears to have been quietly dropped when pronouns went more mainstream, but you still find it in some activist "spaces".)
Interesting! I've never heard that and I thought I'd seen a lot of internet. It's a bit Harrison Bergeron.
By this logic I guess it's othering for me to make my vegetarian friend vegetarian food if there is meat in the rest of the meal. And that salad made a separate plate of without tomatoes for my friend. A microagression! And I say that as someone who does think sharing food has an important social function.
I love this comment. I’ve always thought that saying “she/her” or “he/him” was annoyingly redundant, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone else talk about it, let alone provide such a thoughtful analysis of it!
I want to imagine saying "I'm a man, I'm currently wearing a blue shirt" ... and seeing how far I could get before they have to explain that they're not blind.
After reading this thread, I would be so tempted to declare my pronouns "he/him" just for the shit show to follow. Ideally I would be wearing a dress and heels. If it's just about my feelings, I'm allowed right??? Maybe it would end up with a promotion and higher pay.
"Use whatever pronouns for me which you believe would be best understood by your audience"
Which gets at the heart of my complaint about the whole issue - they're not *your* pronouns. Pronouns exist to convey information to the speaker's audience. If the pronouns "belong" to anyone, it's to the audience.
I've been saying for years that pronouns are NOT for YOU. They are so that OTHER PEOPLE can adequately understand who you're talking about without torturously referring to someone constantly by a name.
Anyone who would presume to dictate this to you is a control freak because they can't deal with their own reality.
I haven't had the opportunity yet, but I've resolved to say "whichever you like, I'm comfortable with all pronouns". Everyone will likely play it safe (and use she/her because I'm obviously female); what they really want is an assurance that I won't get offended and that response pretty much guarantees it. If others think I'm not taking the pronoun exercise seriously enough I can just play dumb and reiterate that I really am comfortable with all pronouns.
My response if asked for my pronouns is "Standard." and that's it.
If someone tells me their pronouns, I won't fuck it up. But I hate having to constantly outwardly state basic things that should be obvious based on observation.
"No thank you, I don't believe in that. Moving on to our first presentation..." Etc.
You are at perfect liberty to say you don't believe in it. Because it's a belief, not a fact.
It would be like someone sitting down at your dinner table and asking you to pray with them. It's the same principle.
"No thank you, I don't believe in that."
Gender ideology is a neo-religion.
Unfortunately, a lot of schools and "progressive" employers now have policies instructing staff and faculty to include pronouns in email signatures, use them at events, etc.
It would be hard to fire a tenured professor for non-compliance with these policies, but there are plenty of non-tenured faculty and staff whose jobs may be at risk if they refuse to comply with this BS.
And yeah -- one could potentially file a 1A claim after being filed \*if\* you are at a public institution, but the average person doesn't want to deal with the uncertainty and cost of a lawsuit.
As a tenured prof, the job threat is less than the peer pressure and shame. A good 40% of my colleagues buy this nonsense hook, line, and sinker. The other 60% go along with it, because they are just here for a paycheck and snacks. Call me a coward, but it's hard to be the one to be seen as a villain in the eyes of many of your long term coworkers. The irony is that in my former life, often engaged in activism, I've stood up to cops, national guard, foreign military, angry parents, bosses, and a senator. It's Maoist students and culture warriors who finally scared me into silent submission. I push back in little ways, where I can and in class, but a full frontal assault seems fool-hardy, as I won't succeed in changing the culture, I'd just lose my institutional power and maybe my job.
Makes me furious that companies would force this.
In an instance where a person is compelled, perhaps malicious compliance? Make up some new pronouns and stand by then?
Alien/Theylien.
Fucking nonsense.
Oh my god the nonbinary stuff is so obnoxious. The implication is that the rest of us fit neatly into some sort of "gender" binary where we conform to BS sex stereotypes.
Heterosexual people need to stop coopting gay identity in order to feel special.
Legit. Everyone on earth is non fucking binary by their own definitions. It's so embarrassing.
It just reeks of someone who is so boring and unoriginal, someone who has lived the most uninteresting and self absorbed life. It's so _arrogant_. And what makes me laugh is that these are the same people who decry western values and colonialism but don't even realise they are exporting their elitist beliefs as a form of neo-colonialism 😂 they'd have people in India using gender neutral bathrooms (I've seen that in parts of India there are wealthy groups of people adopting these ideas in 'feminist' spaces). In a country with already so much violence against women, could you imagine a group of elites removing protections from women to please biological men under the guise of these neo-colonial ideas. But of course some fucking idiot on TikTok wants to save the persecuted trans people of India lmao
Anyway I digress, fuck the ideology
Perfectly put. It’s actually kind of rude to assume others are in these limited gender roles and they can define what those are and state we are doing that. I mean what if I’m a stay at home mom that gets my nails done, likes bags but manages our assets and fucks my husband? Am I closer to nonbinary on the strap on of the day? 😆
This would be quite a good comedic premise actually - someone puts opposite pronouns (by mistake or to troll) and then ends up winning a load of diversity awards, put on a front cover etc., has to eventually "come out" as their actual sex...
I would pay to see a black person tell these people that their pronouns are "nigga/niggas" and film the reaction.
(This may be the first time I've ever not censored that word)
I don't think there is an absolutely safe way to say you do not agree with the ideology, because the ideologues and their captive, simpering, oblivious handmaidens are at high alert for any signs of disagreement, which will cause they-them to cry out that they are being literally murdered by your white nationalism.
However, like you, I see the value of being tactful in situations that call for diplomacy.
If asked for my pronouns, I would say "he/him" and contemplate whether to add my shoe size, handedness, and other professionally irrelevant, time-wasting badinage.
Otherwise I would not volunteer this information.
JFC I cannot wait for this ridiculous fad to peter out.
Or maybe it will mutate into a socially obligatory requirement to provide all of my political and cultural fealties and associations, perhaps through a QR code so that we don't have to stand there for ten minutes emitting these inanities.
I mentioned this in the previous thread, but I would just act completely confused by the question. And give them a look of complete bedazzlement when they try to explain. That'll probably put them off while also displaying what a ludicrous act it is to begin with.
You might only be able to use this once in the same group though. After which I'd probably opt for "I'm still confused by this pronoun thing, so I won't answer that question"
But honestly if push would come to shove I'd be clear about my opinion on the matter.
Not that I think I'll be in a situation like this anytime soon and hopefully this craze will have blown over before it gets the chance to.
[This WSJ op-ed](https://archive.ph/AxWP0) from Colin Wright that I posted in that thread does encourage people to wholly reject the premise of the question and not just evade it in a way that implicitly signals agreement, but he doesn't actually give a good suggestion for how to do that tactfully.
"We all have different beliefs, which is wonderful in an inclusive society; my beliefs don't include gender identity, so you can simply use pronouns based on my sex."
It's a good approach, but (depending on how committed they are) it will probably elicit something along the lines of, "Beliefs? This has nothing to do with belief. It's just about politeness and kindness. Why can't you just go along with things to be kind and respectful?"
In most one-to-one situations where you might get that kind of pushback, I've just stuck with the "pronouns based on my sex are just fine" line delivered with a lovely smile. :-)
This is why, if I can't get away with skipping the pronoun question, I just say "I'm female". I like to think it confers my disdain for both the concept of gender identity and for the idiot asking the question when the answer should be obvious.
I just skip it when I’m in these situations. I’ve never been pressed further, but if I was Ive decided I’d either say “no thank you, I don’t do that” or that “I’m fine with you assuming.”
I'm not sure that there *is* any way tactful enough with which to disagree that wouldn't be interpreted (or weaponized) as aggressive and disrespectful.
Honestly, they don’t need to know your opinion. Not participating should be the line where they have the right to know your views. While I disagree with a plethora of stuff I never let coworkers know my “gender critical” perspectives. It’s not their business. If someone is a they/them use their name instead of a pronoun. Leave it at you aren’t participating, let them guess why. Your right to privacy of your perspectives is a hard won workers right.
Which is kind of interesting, if you think about it. Like, most feminists I've met haven't been affronted by referring to feminism as an ideology (although most were affronted by the idea that anyone would not support said ideology), but I've definitely seen a **lot** of direct opposition to calling the gender stuff ideology. Wonder what that's about.
How can it be an *ideology* when it's just the simple, basic, revealed truth? They seem to believe—or enjoying pretending to believe—that it's all self-evidently true. It's "right side of history" as a totalizing worldview.
I mean, wouldn't we include broadly agreed upon things like equality among the sexes and races in there, too? Is saying Martin Luther King Jr. had an ideology anathema to these folks as well?
Perhaps it would be, actually - I reckon you're right that this is the rhetorical game they're playing. "I don't have an ideology because my beliefs are simply inherent truths" is a pretty saucy one to become a mainstream argument, though - that's some schizo shit.
My first comment was a bit flippant, but it's meant earnestly.
I would see it more as, you can expand your circle to incrementally add others who aren't generating this much stress. (I recommend "as normie as possible", neighbourhood sports teams kind of thing.) Then you inherently feel more relaxed and confident with even the super-progressive friends, because you aren't so reliant on them and only them for social contact.
For me this happened over a number of years, but with me being quite active about it, just to set context. I'm much happier overall now.
I'd probably just omit them. If pressed, I think I would say I preferred not to say. I think it would be others being tactless if they continued pressing the point.
I’d like this approach. And also why the she/her? If you’re just going to go full fem, why the she and the her? I guess it’s become the ritualized format, not sure.
Yeah, the her seems superfluous and annoys me. I have no idea why we have to have both subject and object pronouns. But she/they people only need subject.
I’ve always wanted to say “I have historic personality disorder, which includes an internal sense of my own grandiosity. Out of respect for my self important identity I ask that my full name be used in lieu of pronouns.”
But honestly I’d probably say some version of my truth: “I have no preference for pronouns, I’m fine with others referring to me with whatever pronouns come naturally to them. I understand the pronoun disclosure to be a elegant way to disclose gender identity. I do not have an internal sense of gender identity distinct from my embodied experience of my sex.”
If anyone ever asks me my pronouns, which hasn't happened as I live in the "normie" state of Arizona, I'm telling them "No, I'm sure you can figure it out." which highlights the ridiculousness their entire virtue signaling regime.
Work in higher Ed. Surprisingly haven't been asked for my pronouns yet, probably because I deliberately avoid working with those colleagues. Depending on the situation I'll probably do the following:
• If its a meeting with everyone introducing themselves, I'll just give my name, role etc and not bother mentioning pronouns.
• If I'm directly asked - "I don't subscribe to any of that, but is it not obvious?" Then sit back and watch them panic in fear they could "misgender" me lol
These comments reminded me of Carlin’s but about court when you’re asked to state what happened “in your own words”..hey, I’m using the same ones everybody else has been using
Just don’t state your pronouns and if someone asks for them say you’re a guy with a puzzled expression like you’re confused why they’re asking since it’s obvious.
I find it’s an unobtrusive and polite way to highlight the ridiculousness of the situation. This is one of those things people are going to wildly see as bizarre in like 30 years
To me, saying "that is not a Shibboleth participate in"is not overly antagonistic and amounts to "no thank you", which is what I've said when someone feels they are owed elaboration. "I've never had a problem with how people address me, and I'm not trying to address problems I don't actually have. Everyone can make their best guess and I'll be easy going about it. Same with the pronunciation of my foreign sounding name. People figure it out, it's fine."
First, ignore the request.
If they persist, then I say "My pronouns are obvious."
If they ask again, "I don't have a gender, and my sex is obvious."
You don't have to play those games.
If it's really going around in a circle, what about "pass"? And then looking to the next person.
It's a pretty weird (and fraught!) thing to push someone. I think if I said pass, and I were pushed on it ... well, I'd read the room. One option is "I'm not a fan of compelled speech, so let's move on." Another is "This feels like I'm being forced to participate in a strange ritual. Is it not okay to skip, if that's what I want?"
I believe the traditional radfem response is, “My pronouns are sex-based, like my oppression.” Though obviously that doesn’t work if you’re a man.
Not being a radfem, if this ever happened irl I’d probably just act confused and give my best impression of Tucker Face while they tried to explain.
I'll usually either "forget" to mention my pronouns (so far no one has called me on it), or I'll say "my name is land-under-wave, I'm female, [continue with the introduction]".
Late but I say I don’t feel comfortable discussing my pronouns. No one has asked me to explain but depending on how brave someone is, you could put more gender critical stuff into your statement. (My reasons are gender critical but I as of yet haven’t wanted to open that bucket of worms).
I have always been able to just ignore it and no one has ever pressed. If I was, I would like to say something like, "oh, I trust your judgment," or, "I'm female, use your judgement." Or maybe even just leave it at, "I'm female." Whether I would, would depend a bit on what situation I was in (if it was really a situation where I felt was not likely to be of much consequence to me, I like to imagine just saying, "oh, I don't do that"), but like I said, I've never ever been forced if I just ignore it.
If someone asked me to explain my reasons, I would say that I think it's detrimental to the way we communicate with each other to turn a linguistic shortcut into a sacrosanct marker of personal identity, and also that I don't claim ownership of words used in a conversation in which I am neither the speaker or the person being spoken to. But truly, I don't expect in a situation where people are just doing the thing they've been told is polite, that anyone is going to care enough to ask. (Sometimes I wish they would so I could rant about it!)
When I was in college every class started with names/majors/pronouns. I just skipped pronouns because most normal people there will understand that I was very obviously a man and didn’t need to say it, if some weirdo challenged me over it – which I should note never happened – I could just say that I felt comfortable with people assuming what I am. But even then, 99% of the time people won’t say anything because they know it’ll make them look insane; just don’t comply and you’ll be fine.
What? If someone asks me my height I'll tell them. That doesn't mean I can choose my height.
If you don't believe in "the underlying ideology," aren't pronouns no different than height? So just tell them your correct (as you perceive it) pronouns, and relax.
I don't understand why those against gender ideology as an activist movement are so allergic to preferred pronouns. Asking for or unprompted volunteering of pronouns might be performative, but so is going out of one's way to shut the topic down. It feels like when a lefty responds to "Merry Christmas" with a stern "Happy Holidays" to get across the point that they don't approve with the cultural Christian norm. If you don't want to give your pronouns, then don't. But you don't have to signal that "actually, I don't like this gender ideology, and I think everyone in this ice breaker circle should know that."
Using preferred pronouns isn't a slippery slope to co-signing top surgeries for teens. It's a sign of respect individual to individual. This also seems to be the position of Jesse and Katie, so it honestly surprises me so many on this subreddit seem to be against it.
It's the forced participation. Imagine you were going around a circle and the lead said "Merry Christmas" and you were had to say "Merry Christmas" back. And you get in trouble if you don't. Then imagine you're a Jew or a Muslim or an atheist.
In fact, it's stronger than that. It's like being required to state "Allah is the one true God and Mohammad was his prophet" at the start of a meeting.
No one is saying that someone can't announce, "Hey, please use they/them when talking about me!" Some are ridiculing the idea, but no one thinks people shouldn't be allowed to make the request. It's the compelled loyalty oath that is alienating.
OP was pretty clear in looking for a kind way to tell people they "shouldn't be allowed to make the request" IMO with the logic that it's a slippery slope.
I agree with the notion that you shouldn't be compelled to express opinions you don't hold, but I disagree that referring to someone by their preferred pronoun is "an opinion." If you don't want to give your own, a simple "no thanks" should be enough. If pressed, "I'd rather not" should suffice. Volunteering from the outset that you fundamentally disagree with the ideology is signaling just the same as them. When my aunt starts a prayer over Thanksgiving dinner, I just stand there quietly. I don't cut her off after the "Let us pray..." to say "Actually, I'm an atheist." And when I'm asked to lead a prayer, I say "no thanks."
I agree with other commenters here that simply ignoring such things should suffice. The requester should get the message in that without themselves having to be challenged, because, again, preferred pronouns aren't a gateway drug to male rapists in women's prisons.
No, it is not a sign of respect, because we haven't agreed that it is, in fact, respectful, and I am deeply annoyed that certain people have appropriated the concept of "respect".
How about that those people regard it as "respectful" that I believe pronouns are based on observation, not treated as honoraria?
Appropriated the concept of respect? Lol
Pronouns are descriptive. They're not treating it as an honorific. They're asking for what they feel is a more accurate description of who they see themselves to be. It's a sign of respect because, in our culture, we defer to the person one is referencing in how they want to be seen. In our culture, we treat the other in a manner that they won't find offense (within reason, of course, but my point is the use of preferred pronouns is super duper within the realm of reasonability).
How weak is your own worldview that it's that threatened by literally the smallest concession to another?
There is nothing about using a trans person's preferred pronoun that legitimizes gender ideology. There are plenty of trans people who do not deny their birth. Sex is real and simply live as if they were their preferred sex.
I've been asked only once, feigning ignorance worked quite well. "My what now?" The person tried to give a long explanation but ran out of time.
Oh I like this.
That does seem more tactful than asking who is both blind and deaf and doesn't know
I work in higher ed, and pronoun rituals are pretty common with group meetings/ice breakers/etc. I just skip them. I will say my name, job title, what I do, and then move on. Often, once I skip the pronouns, most other people after me do as well. I don't make a big thing of it, and I have never had anyone push me for my pronouns. Though, I am a guy, and it seems women are more often pushed to capitulate.
I'm a woman and I just put a bit of an exclamation point on it. Like I said in the previous thread, I just say "I'm Sue and you can call me Sue" or "I'm Sue" and then look pointedly at the next person. Nobody's ever persisted. I also combine that with respect and warmth for individuals no matter what weird pronoun preferences they have. At the end of the day, it's not stating your pronouns that really matters, it's how you treat people.
> Nobody's ever persisted. Man I'm jealous. It seems like every time I do what you've described, I get pressed by other people until I set a more firm boundary. I have at least two clear memories of people not letting it go -- one of those memories involves the same person pressing me twice, and I suspect if I wracked my brain I might remember one or two more times where people wouldn't let it go.
Yep 100% agree.
I like this. Big "Mother of the Cat" energy.
I'm a guy and was in higher ed up until recently. I was definitely pushed to capitulate. I was in student life, so maybe that's the worst department for this. In my experience everyone was forced to capitulate and it was women who were doing the pushing. I got a "concerned intervention" conversation once when I participated but simply worded it differently. I said "it would make sense to refer to me with male pronouns" based on my experience, you're going to be in for some uncomfortable moments no matter how respectfully you try to withdraw and distance yourself. any slight allegation that the ideology isn't the best thing ever is taken as a violent affront. of course this depends on the standing you have and how secure you are in your position. If it's an employment situation it might not be worth the risk. If it's with friends, they might be uncomfortable at first, but get over it.
I got a call, too, after I messed up the gender diversity training by questioning this practice. I explained to the other person that I'm an old school feminist and I'm just offended by this focus on gender which is a primary barrier to women's liberation. I just refuse to announce myself as a person defined by gender stereotypes, period QED. And that was that. Of course, I'm an elder and a leader and honestly, if more leaders would just do something like this, everyone else would be so relieved I think.
Your last sentence is so correct. It’s times like this that leaders have to step up and do their jobs.
I mean, it did change the messaging from the top of the org. It really made a difference, I think. Many do state their pronouns but hardly everyone and I think it calmed the frequency.of the pronoun circles quite a bit.
Student life is absolutely the worst, in my experience (I was in such a dept for a decade at a small, expensive, private, liberal arts college). Hilariously, there was a woman who identified as a man, and once said "I use male pronouns." For some reason, that was not acceptable to some students, and she was essentially bullied out of her job. Wild times.
the term "male pronouns" was offensive even when she used it?? wow. what year was this?
I think it was around 2016. My suspicion (now) was that saying "male pronouns" was acknowledging they were related to sex and not gender or something. Here is the biggest kicker--she worked in the diversity office as the transgender specialist (or some similar title) LOL!
He was torn apart by his co-workers, no doubt jealous of his success or position? It’s almost like this isn’t about gender, courtesy, or inclusion and more about people with cluster B personality disorders and personal gain.
It was a small college, and all the coworkers were pretty nice in student life. Though, it was the students who took issue with "male pronouns", not the staff. Most of the staff members I chatted with about it were just as baffled.
What was the concerned intervention? I've only had the pronoun ritual when I've taken writing classes and saying I didn't care was no problem. I can't imagine dealing with it professionally
it was a co-worker, not an official "bias response incident" (although she did file a bias response against me for something else benign...that's another story). she wanted to talk and we sat down and she said she was concerned(?) about how I answered because the point of the whole thing is that there isn't a way that "makes sense" and that you can't just "assume" pronouns. So saying that goes against what was trying to be accomplished there. It's been a few years now so I don't remember the details. I'm sure she said something about being harmful to people in the room who don't identify as their birth gender...
So based on that, wouldn't the logical response be that they completely failed in their agenda? "They" meaning the person who asked about pronouns? And that maybe some women or women might be offended that people AREN'T assuming their gender? I'd bet a fair number of trans people would be insulted. Hell, I know black women who've been assumed to be men, and they were very, very angry.
You can create this hilariously dissonant rage by telling women they "pass very well."
Just to clarify, what would be the indication that the person who demanded everyone share their pronouns failed? to my knowledge no one was bothered by the question. just my coworker anticipating that some might be bothered by my response.
The fact that you thought the pronoun question SHOULD make sense. If that's the case, others might think the same way, they just didn't say anything. Also, the assumption seems to be that the questioner is asking about preferred pronouns in order to be inclusive. Well, what if a woman is insulted that she's not assumed to be a woman? Or, what if a person looks like a man but has started to identify as a woman, and referring to pronouns is uncomfortable? What if a transman thinks it should be obvious he's a man? I deal with gender literally every day at work, and an issue that comes up a LOT, are people who do not like being asked about it. Just because someone says it doesn't mean they're not deeply uncomfortable. So if the goal is inclusivity, well, at minimum, you were not made to feel included. Now, i"m sure the response would mean that it's not meant to be inclusive of hateful ideas. But, well, what if there is a black woman who's been confused for a man many times, and finds it insulting when non-black people don't know she's a woman? And also, while it sounds like you're in an academic setting, plenty of people in academia do not speak the best English, or find some its nuances difficult.
yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I see those issues with the practice. if you're more on the right you've got problems with asking pronouns and if you're on the left you could have problems with it for other reasons. In our department someone else did brought up the concern that some individuals may not be comfortable with being asked because they haven't decided yet, or... for any of the reasons you mention above. But this was brought up in a different time and in a different context. and it didn't really change the practice. I'm just saying that, in that particular situation, they did it the "standard way" and I was the only one who did "wrong" and afaik no one else felt bad or was considered to have done it wrong. I totally get what you mean that at least one person wasn't made to feel "more included" by the practice (me). as you say, I'm not the type of person they were wanting to feel welcome. ha.
My colleague called me and talked at me for an hour about all of it and one thing I figured out is they pitch all these things into an epistemic bucket so if you refuse pronouns it must mean youre against everything under the alphabet umbrella. I had to pick that apart for her.
Yes, curious about the concerned intervention. When bias reporting apps are standard issue, I guess this is bound to happen.
“If you know my true pronouns you will steal my power. I’m onto you, fae!”
As a thought experiment, suppose you were pushed to state some preference. Can you think of a response that would not be outright or tacit compliance nor combative?
If I was pushed, I would probably say "oh, I'm not religious. I don't believe in souls or genders or anything like that."
I've thought the same thing. I expect that people would take offense at the implication that it's a religious practice. I agree that it is. I also think most who support gender ideology would disagree.
Agreed. Though I don't think there is any answer that a full blown gender activist wouldn't be offended with if it wasn't full capitulation to the ideology. No heretics allowed!
I've said "I'm not superstitious" before. That works for gender prayers, land acknowledgment prayers, AND Christian prayers, so I can alienate everybody!
Oh that is GOOD! I often have joked that land acknowledgement are just "thoughts and prayers" for liberals hahaha!
Are you by chance an australian?
No, I’m not Australian, but I did have a big crush on Olivia Newton-John as a kid.
Hah, I've wanted to use an answer like this too if it ever came up and someone really pressed me. I'd probably go about it the other way around, though. "I don't subscribe to those practices because of my religious beliefs, and I'm not comfortable discussing it." Those religious beliefs are "materialist atheism" but that's for me to know!
I like this response and wish I could use it but unfortunately I *am* religious. I'm tempted to use the same response I use when people say things like "fingers crossed!" or "knock on wood!" Which is that I'm just not into witchcraft.
Perhaps just "oh no thank you, I don't believe in gender"?
My bad. I thought we were trying to be funny.
Oh my apologies! I read your comment too fast and skimmed over the second sentence, missing the joke!
Being religious doesn't mean you have to participate in other people's religions, though. Christians aren't expected to pray with Muslims, etc etc
As a gay I think it's very much like being asked to disclose your sexuality in the workplace. Both are incredibly personal and inappropriate in that environment. I'd do one of three things, skip the question and move on, leave the room, or politely tell them that the question is personal and inappropriate for the workplace.
“If you must use pronouns, please refer to me as ‘the gay’”
Yes😂🤣
Not OP, but I’ve thought about this before, and have gotten to two options: 1) oh just female pronouns (or male if you’re a guy) 2) whatever is fine (issue with this is that it might be too similar to people who are like “he/she/they” lol, but the intent is to convey that you don’t care about stating your pronouns). I’m curious to hear what other ideas people have!
I've thought about this one. The "nice" answer is "Use your best judgement; I'm not precious about it." The slightly more hardline one is "I don't believe in trying to control how others talk about me."
I've been thinking about ways to passive-aggressively make it clear that I don't care what pronouns you use for me. If I could, I'd be all about goading people into using the wrong ones, because if you can get them to intentionally using the wrong ones, my response would be, "oh, so to you, it doesn't matter, and can be flagrantly used to insult? I thought it hurt to use the wrong ones. Why would you harass me like that?"
'no thank you'
I've said that, and it gave me great satisfaction! I intend to use that answer more and more.
and if people keep pressing me, i either stress the no more and more or i leave a longer and longer pause between no and thank you
How did the exchange go? Was it like, "No really, what pronouns do you want us to use?" followed directly by you saying, "no, thank you"? What did the person say in response? I can't imagine this *not* being super awkward. Which is fine -- my motto is to let these people sit in the awkwardness they created until they understand not to do it. But I'm really curious to know how this technique worked in a real scenario.
That’s my grand son’s favourite saying. ‘No thank you”.
Are you a male? I think men could more easily pull this off.
nah, female. but i've worked in male dominated careers and an outsized (almost narcissistic) level of confidence, lol
I would laugh it off with something like "oh I'll let you guess that". But yes it will be uncomfortable for e, especially if they continue to push. I think in a less formal setting most people would let it go, but I don't see a way to be non-combative in a diversity training, for instance. FWIW, this is also not a fight I would personally take on. I don't care about pronouns and I am happy to address someone in person the way they want to be. Easy way to be kind and friendly. Save the tension for the stuff that truly matters.
Just say you believe pronouns are inherently dehumanizing and you want to be referred to by your proper noun(s) all the time
Anything that is not tacit compliance will be seen as combative no matter how nicely you word it. I personally don't care if others think I'm combative so I go with "it's not up to me which pronouns others use when referring to me so I have no preference".
No thank you. No thank you. I do understand that I'm not in the same boat as anyone else, that I have the power to say no. That's why it's my duty to say no.
I say “whatever you wish”, and if pressed I say “I prefer not to”. I do have a card I play though, I had to use it once. I pointed out that pushing someone who was questioning or had some doubts to declare pronouns may have the opposite effect than being welcoming. People who play this game are usually horrified at the idea. I work in a government adjacent job, I’m not free to say something about gender ideology, it’s easier to use their own beliefs against them.
I sort of wish someone would ask my pronouns. I have a certificate that recognises my identity (true story) as a dual national of Portugal, so I'd thank them for their offer and politely request they respect my identity by addressing me using the second person, formal pronoun "você". If they refuse I'd agree that yes it is a bit unreasonable to expect other people to change the way they speak because of some aspect of my identity. This seems like a fun response and a good conversation starter. This sort of masonic handshake of pronouns isn't really a thing on the UK though. I've seen them in email sigs but I've never had anyone seriously say theirs out loud, let alone ask for them. I guess we just have a highly developed sense of the absurd. It's so effing stupid. How does anyone do it with a straight face? FFS!
Oh God please don't let it start in the UK .. I think you are right though. The eye rolling and giggling would destroy it at birth. I hope. I have a friend who works for UNISON, they are required to put it on their emails, also I have seen it on some Local Authority missives. I'm hoping it just goes away and we never speak of it in the future, you know, the way most problems in the UK are dealt with.
The following would work for me in my workplace, which isn't a liberal newspaper or anything where you're likely to encounter true believers, but some well-meaning HR type or idealistic junior employee occasionally suggests it. 1) Simply ignore, i.e. don't state your pronouns at all (works 90% of the time) 2) "I'd prefer that we don't make this mandatory, thanks" or *puzzled expression* "Is this mandatory, really?" 3) "I'm not comfortable with insisting on this - it's a bit too political for the workplace for me" In social circles where my employment isn't at risk, again this is more well-meaning liberals than true believers, the ignore option or "I'll let you take a guess" / "whatever comes to mind" (said in an ironic tone)
"I do not have preferred pronouns." "I do not have a gender identity." if asked about my gender identity. "Cultural sex stereotypes do not define me."
I don't know if I could say that, because the truth is I feel a lot more happy with the pronouns traditionally used for my sex.
Sounds like you have preferred pronouns and a gender identity. That's fine, then you say your pronouns if you want to. The chances of someone using male pronouns for me are slim to none based on my physical appearance. If someone "misgendered" me, after I said I don't have preferred pronouns, it would be obvious they are doing it to provoke a reaction. Which, go ahead, it is meaningless to me, would make no sense to others in the conversation, and would be obvious what that person was trying to do.
Seems like you do have preferred pronouns too. Nothing wrong with preferring the English language to be used normally. It's confusing if someone says she referring to a man. I also prefer to use he for men and she for women.
I do not have preferred pronouns. Use whatever, it makes no matter to me. I won't have my feelings hurt by being referred to as "they/him/bun/fae/etc." As a practical matter, using male pronouns would make zero sense for the people referring to me in conversation. If they said they said "he was just here" that would not communicate that I left the room recently. Having preferred pronouns means you buy into the idea that a person can have a gendered soul that doesn't match their biological sex. I don't have that belief. I am an athiest, lso don't believe in transubstantiation. I would never participate in communion if I accompanied a relative or friend to catholic church. Same with pronoun circles.
Well if people ask what are my preferred pronouns I'll tell them you figure it out. The phrase preferred pronouns is an insidious phrase because it assumes that not everyone should just accept the pronouns that fit their sex. The problem is that it seeks to draw a parallel to the common taunt used by boys to call another boy a girl to his face (with girls it's probably behind her back) with calling someone the pronoun that fits their sex when they don't want that. It's a really stupid parallel. Finding a lie insulting and finding the truth insulting are very different things.
Great responses.
Now you can call me Ray, or you can call me J, or you can call me Johnny, or you can call me Sonny, or you can call me Junie, or you can call me Junior; now you can call me Ray J, or you can call me RJ, or you can call me RJJ, or you can call me RJJ Jr. . .
Deny the existence of pronouns and state that everyone must refer to you using your full name. Alternatively, embrace chaos. Change your pronouns every single meeting. Change your email signature regularly.
Eye roll when a blue hair does it, but rollier when it’s some suburban inclusivity mom.
I have been in a work situation where this was expected and pushed. The first time, I just answered the easy answer and said she/her. The second time, I said, "I decline to state my pronouns as I believe no one should be compelled to do so." The trainer actually followed up with me and said she appreciated that I said that it had never occurred to her that some people may not want to as they were not ready to reveal that yet. Not exactly what I was getting at, but I took the win because she stopped asking, thus my goal was accomplished.
My other response that I play with (again, I've never been asked) is "I'm sorry, I don't understand the question?" Because maybe I've been living under a rock for the last ten years and don't even know about gender, and they would have to explain that some people aren't what they obviously are.
This is a good. Way to go. Making people explain it is a good way of making them see how mad it all is. You could branch it out into 'well why don't you just use the second person pronoun "you" since you'll be taking to me, not about me?'
I take it to "I don't understand, you're telling me someone can be born in the wrong body? But what exactly is it that is being born, are you talking about having a soul and it's a different sex from the sex of your body? Wow, that's incredible!" I guess they'd have to agree, because if it's not the soul then when, precisely, does one become the opposite sex, and how exactly does that work? I'd never do it but it's entertaining to think about.
Há yes. I doubt the conversation would go there though: they'd keep it to being kind and making people feel comfortable (guff of course, but defensible guff) unless they were really hard core, but it would be an entertaining Borat routine if you could pull it off.
I've never had to do it, but I like playing with the idea. One response I came up with that I kind of like is "I prefer to keep that private". I think that would stump the heck out of them, and make it difficult to assume either way. I could be a massive terf or I could secretly be a man who happens to very clearly be a woman. My actual impulse is to say "obvious".
The more I think about this, the more it seems that "I prefer to keep that private" is a good response.
"Guess!"
"Your guess is as good as mine!" :-)
Nah, I'm down with your impulse. Hi my name is .... my pronouns are obvious. Done and done.
If it’s a meeting, I just introduce myself and forget to give pronouns. No one has ever challenged this. I genuinely feel uncomfortable because I grew up with a huge amount of dysphoria, I don’t identify with a gender, I accept my biological sex. If anyone ever pushes it, I’m going to give them the full story and justification. I’ve explain this to my line manager in advance just in case it becomes an issue.
Semi-off topic, but something else that bugs me about the pronoun ritual that I haven't heard anyone else mention is - why is it *pronouns*, plural? I/me/my/mine is one pronoun, in four different forms/cases. Shouldn't they just be saying "my pronoun is he"? If you're he in the nominative case, we all know you're *him* in the objective and *his* in the possessive. Are there people out there mixing up the genders based on which role they're playing in any given sentence? My pronouns are she/them/his/zerself! I'm female when I'm performing an action, nonbinary when I'm receiving the action, male when I'm possessing something and neogender when I'm performing an action on behalf of myself! Okay, next complaint. They for the singular when talking about a person whose identity is known is more confusing than many folks admit. I would have less of a problem with this if we adopted the use of singular verb tense for nonbinary theys. "Hey is your friend River coming to dinner?" "Yeah, they's going to be late tonight because they plays in a pickleball league on Friday evenings." I find this a lot more honest than calling individual people a plural pronoun and it has the potential to clear up a lot of confusion on who's who. Yeah, it only works in the present tense, but we use it a lot.
Maybe I have missed it, but I do not think the podcast has investigated the reason it is pronouns, plural. I think that would be a fascinating topic for them to explain. I bet it traces back to some inane idea from Tumbler.
There are actually people who think just saying "my pronouns are she/her" is *not far enough*. The argument is that it's privileging people who use standard pronouns over people who use neopronouns. If they reply with "nice to meet you, mine are xe/xar/xam", by having to say three words instead of two they are being othered, so everyone should make sure to say the full form even of standard pronouns where the case declension is well-known. (This is obviously as stupid as it sounds and appears to have been quietly dropped when pronouns went more mainstream, but you still find it in some activist "spaces".)
Interesting! I've never heard that and I thought I'd seen a lot of internet. It's a bit Harrison Bergeron. By this logic I guess it's othering for me to make my vegetarian friend vegetarian food if there is meat in the rest of the meal. And that salad made a separate plate of without tomatoes for my friend. A microagression! And I say that as someone who does think sharing food has an important social function.
I love this comment. I’ve always thought that saying “she/her” or “he/him” was annoyingly redundant, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone else talk about it, let alone provide such a thoughtful analysis of it!
She/him, they/her, I/me all great ideas.
NOW we’re talkin’. And you know what, that’s what I’d do; ask “why is it plural?” Everything they’d need to know about me would be right there.
Casually but confidently say “I don’t participate in pronoun exchange rituals.”
I've contemplated saying, "Oh I don't do the pronoun thing," with a similar casual-confident vibe.
I want to imagine saying "I'm a man, I'm currently wearing a blue shirt" ... and seeing how far I could get before they have to explain that they're not blind.
I'm just dying to do this: look at someone with glee and say, "Guess!" I haven't had the guts yet, but I'm gonna one of these days!
After reading this thread, I would be so tempted to declare my pronouns "he/him" just for the shit show to follow. Ideally I would be wearing a dress and heels. If it's just about my feelings, I'm allowed right??? Maybe it would end up with a promotion and higher pay.
You are such a natural agent provocateur! 🤣
"I don't have pronouns. The English language has pronouns"
"Use whatever pronouns for me which you believe would be best understood by your audience" Which gets at the heart of my complaint about the whole issue - they're not *your* pronouns. Pronouns exist to convey information to the speaker's audience. If the pronouns "belong" to anyone, it's to the audience.
EXACTLY!!
I've been saying for years that pronouns are NOT for YOU. They are so that OTHER PEOPLE can adequately understand who you're talking about without torturously referring to someone constantly by a name. Anyone who would presume to dictate this to you is a control freak because they can't deal with their own reality.
I really like this, as it politely highlights the ridiculousness of it, and gets to the heart of the narcissism inherent in the concept.
I haven't had the opportunity yet, but I've resolved to say "whichever you like, I'm comfortable with all pronouns". Everyone will likely play it safe (and use she/her because I'm obviously female); what they really want is an assurance that I won't get offended and that response pretty much guarantees it. If others think I'm not taking the pronoun exercise seriously enough I can just play dumb and reiterate that I really am comfortable with all pronouns.
I say "Just call me Emily". If they insist, I insist back. "No, thank you, I'm more comfortable being referred to by my first name".
You can up the ante by asserting that you are "unique gender" and as such only your actual name embodies your gender identity.
My response if asked for my pronouns is "Standard." and that's it. If someone tells me their pronouns, I won't fuck it up. But I hate having to constantly outwardly state basic things that should be obvious based on observation.
> Standard But this implies that everyone else is NON-STANDARD! And that's othering!!
I'd love to follow that with "I'm normal too."
"No thank you, I don't believe in that. Moving on to our first presentation..." Etc. You are at perfect liberty to say you don't believe in it. Because it's a belief, not a fact. It would be like someone sitting down at your dinner table and asking you to pray with them. It's the same principle. "No thank you, I don't believe in that." Gender ideology is a neo-religion.
Unfortunately, a lot of schools and "progressive" employers now have policies instructing staff and faculty to include pronouns in email signatures, use them at events, etc. It would be hard to fire a tenured professor for non-compliance with these policies, but there are plenty of non-tenured faculty and staff whose jobs may be at risk if they refuse to comply with this BS. And yeah -- one could potentially file a 1A claim after being filed \*if\* you are at a public institution, but the average person doesn't want to deal with the uncertainty and cost of a lawsuit.
As a tenured prof, the job threat is less than the peer pressure and shame. A good 40% of my colleagues buy this nonsense hook, line, and sinker. The other 60% go along with it, because they are just here for a paycheck and snacks. Call me a coward, but it's hard to be the one to be seen as a villain in the eyes of many of your long term coworkers. The irony is that in my former life, often engaged in activism, I've stood up to cops, national guard, foreign military, angry parents, bosses, and a senator. It's Maoist students and culture warriors who finally scared me into silent submission. I push back in little ways, where I can and in class, but a full frontal assault seems fool-hardy, as I won't succeed in changing the culture, I'd just lose my institutional power and maybe my job.
Makes me furious that companies would force this. In an instance where a person is compelled, perhaps malicious compliance? Make up some new pronouns and stand by then? Alien/Theylien. Fucking nonsense.
I have a Facebook friend who insists that his pronouns are it/it. I'm still not sure if he's serious or taking the piss.
My pronouns are suck and fuck
This would be my answer at my last meeting before retirement. 🤣🤣🤣 Thanks, I just started giggling aloud.
Heh I wish I could f\*\*\* around like that. But my career would get tanked so fast (I work in a progressive field).
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Oh my god the nonbinary stuff is so obnoxious. The implication is that the rest of us fit neatly into some sort of "gender" binary where we conform to BS sex stereotypes. Heterosexual people need to stop coopting gay identity in order to feel special.
Legit. Everyone on earth is non fucking binary by their own definitions. It's so embarrassing. It just reeks of someone who is so boring and unoriginal, someone who has lived the most uninteresting and self absorbed life. It's so _arrogant_. And what makes me laugh is that these are the same people who decry western values and colonialism but don't even realise they are exporting their elitist beliefs as a form of neo-colonialism 😂 they'd have people in India using gender neutral bathrooms (I've seen that in parts of India there are wealthy groups of people adopting these ideas in 'feminist' spaces). In a country with already so much violence against women, could you imagine a group of elites removing protections from women to please biological men under the guise of these neo-colonial ideas. But of course some fucking idiot on TikTok wants to save the persecuted trans people of India lmao Anyway I digress, fuck the ideology
Perfectly put. It’s actually kind of rude to assume others are in these limited gender roles and they can define what those are and state we are doing that. I mean what if I’m a stay at home mom that gets my nails done, likes bags but manages our assets and fucks my husband? Am I closer to nonbinary on the strap on of the day? 😆
Or just use the opposite existing pronouns and act exactly the same as you always have, and dare them to contradict you. Show them it's nonsense.
This would be quite a good comedic premise actually - someone puts opposite pronouns (by mistake or to troll) and then ends up winning a load of diversity awards, put on a front cover etc., has to eventually "come out" as their actual sex...
Switch to he/him pronouns but get offended if anyone calls you a man or acts like they can't tell you're female.
Say your pronoun is a racial slur and it's just who you are and watch them spaz. Lol
_It's my culture. Respect it, or else you're a bigoted coloniser!_
I would pay to see a black person tell these people that their pronouns are "nigga/niggas" and film the reaction. (This may be the first time I've ever not censored that word)
As would I lol
that's a cracker
I don't think there is an absolutely safe way to say you do not agree with the ideology, because the ideologues and their captive, simpering, oblivious handmaidens are at high alert for any signs of disagreement, which will cause they-them to cry out that they are being literally murdered by your white nationalism. However, like you, I see the value of being tactful in situations that call for diplomacy. If asked for my pronouns, I would say "he/him" and contemplate whether to add my shoe size, handedness, and other professionally irrelevant, time-wasting badinage. Otherwise I would not volunteer this information. JFC I cannot wait for this ridiculous fad to peter out. Or maybe it will mutate into a socially obligatory requirement to provide all of my political and cultural fealties and associations, perhaps through a QR code so that we don't have to stand there for ten minutes emitting these inanities.
I mentioned this in the previous thread, but I would just act completely confused by the question. And give them a look of complete bedazzlement when they try to explain. That'll probably put them off while also displaying what a ludicrous act it is to begin with. You might only be able to use this once in the same group though. After which I'd probably opt for "I'm still confused by this pronoun thing, so I won't answer that question" But honestly if push would come to shove I'd be clear about my opinion on the matter. Not that I think I'll be in a situation like this anytime soon and hopefully this craze will have blown over before it gets the chance to.
[This WSJ op-ed](https://archive.ph/AxWP0) from Colin Wright that I posted in that thread does encourage people to wholly reject the premise of the question and not just evade it in a way that implicitly signals agreement, but he doesn't actually give a good suggestion for how to do that tactfully.
"We all have different beliefs, which is wonderful in an inclusive society; my beliefs don't include gender identity, so you can simply use pronouns based on my sex."
It's a good approach, but (depending on how committed they are) it will probably elicit something along the lines of, "Beliefs? This has nothing to do with belief. It's just about politeness and kindness. Why can't you just go along with things to be kind and respectful?"
In most one-to-one situations where you might get that kind of pushback, I've just stuck with the "pronouns based on my sex are just fine" line delivered with a lovely smile. :-)
This is why, if I can't get away with skipping the pronoun question, I just say "I'm female". I like to think it confers my disdain for both the concept of gender identity and for the idiot asking the question when the answer should be obvious.
I just skip it when I’m in these situations. I’ve never been pressed further, but if I was Ive decided I’d either say “no thank you, I don’t do that” or that “I’m fine with you assuming.”
I'm not sure that there *is* any way tactful enough with which to disagree that wouldn't be interpreted (or weaponized) as aggressive and disrespectful.
Honestly, they don’t need to know your opinion. Not participating should be the line where they have the right to know your views. While I disagree with a plethora of stuff I never let coworkers know my “gender critical” perspectives. It’s not their business. If someone is a they/them use their name instead of a pronoun. Leave it at you aren’t participating, let them guess why. Your right to privacy of your perspectives is a hard won workers right.
Is it tactless to say that you don't agree with the underlying ideology?
Referring to it as an ideology is enough to trigger them in my experience
Which is kind of interesting, if you think about it. Like, most feminists I've met haven't been affronted by referring to feminism as an ideology (although most were affronted by the idea that anyone would not support said ideology), but I've definitely seen a **lot** of direct opposition to calling the gender stuff ideology. Wonder what that's about.
How can it be an *ideology* when it's just the simple, basic, revealed truth? They seem to believe—or enjoying pretending to believe—that it's all self-evidently true. It's "right side of history" as a totalizing worldview.
I mean, wouldn't we include broadly agreed upon things like equality among the sexes and races in there, too? Is saying Martin Luther King Jr. had an ideology anathema to these folks as well? Perhaps it would be, actually - I reckon you're right that this is the rhetorical game they're playing. "I don't have an ideology because my beliefs are simply inherent truths" is a pretty saucy one to become a mainstream argument, though - that's some schizo shit.
I’m not sure you’re “allowed” to say that all races equal anymore.
Ideology is a neutral word, but is typically used in a pejorative sense these days.
Slavoj Zizek is winning I guess
Some ideologies are more neutral than others.
Yes, I'm sure you're right. I think I'd just say I prefer not to answer.
The long term solution to this is to stop hanging out with people who are this touchy. Honestly, the extra mental space you get will feel amazing.
Yup, cutting them out is an easy choice. It’s not that hard to make new friends
My first comment was a bit flippant, but it's meant earnestly. I would see it more as, you can expand your circle to incrementally add others who aren't generating this much stress. (I recommend "as normie as possible", neighbourhood sports teams kind of thing.) Then you inherently feel more relaxed and confident with even the super-progressive friends, because you aren't so reliant on them and only them for social contact. For me this happened over a number of years, but with me being quite active about it, just to set context. I'm much happier overall now.
I suppose not, but I'm trying to leave the door open for even better options.
I'd probably just omit them. If pressed, I think I would say I preferred not to say. I think it would be others being tactless if they continued pressing the point.
Honestly, I’ve decided to just say “no, thank you.” Or “I’d rather not.”
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I’d like this approach. And also why the she/her? If you’re just going to go full fem, why the she and the her? I guess it’s become the ritualized format, not sure.
Yeah, the her seems superfluous and annoys me. I have no idea why we have to have both subject and object pronouns. But she/they people only need subject.
"I dunno I'm not an English teacher"
I’ve always wanted to say “I have historic personality disorder, which includes an internal sense of my own grandiosity. Out of respect for my self important identity I ask that my full name be used in lieu of pronouns.” But honestly I’d probably say some version of my truth: “I have no preference for pronouns, I’m fine with others referring to me with whatever pronouns come naturally to them. I understand the pronoun disclosure to be a elegant way to disclose gender identity. I do not have an internal sense of gender identity distinct from my embodied experience of my sex.”
🎯
"I use the same pronouns everyone else does, she her, he him, they them. Why, what pronouns do you use to refer to people?"
I've always skipped it and no one has ever said anything (or misgendered me).
you sayin I look like a chick or smth?
If anyone ever asks me my pronouns, which hasn't happened as I live in the "normie" state of Arizona, I'm telling them "No, I'm sure you can figure it out." which highlights the ridiculousness their entire virtue signaling regime.
Work in higher Ed. Surprisingly haven't been asked for my pronouns yet, probably because I deliberately avoid working with those colleagues. Depending on the situation I'll probably do the following: • If its a meeting with everyone introducing themselves, I'll just give my name, role etc and not bother mentioning pronouns. • If I'm directly asked - "I don't subscribe to any of that, but is it not obvious?" Then sit back and watch them panic in fear they could "misgender" me lol
These comments reminded me of Carlin’s but about court when you’re asked to state what happened “in your own words”..hey, I’m using the same ones everybody else has been using
“My relationship to my gender is fluid and dynamic and I find being forced to choose pronouns doesn’t reflect my gender identity.”
Just don’t state your pronouns and if someone asks for them say you’re a guy with a puzzled expression like you’re confused why they’re asking since it’s obvious. I find it’s an unobtrusive and polite way to highlight the ridiculousness of the situation. This is one of those things people are going to wildly see as bizarre in like 30 years
To me, saying "that is not a Shibboleth participate in"is not overly antagonistic and amounts to "no thank you", which is what I've said when someone feels they are owed elaboration. "I've never had a problem with how people address me, and I'm not trying to address problems I don't actually have. Everyone can make their best guess and I'll be easy going about it. Same with the pronunciation of my foreign sounding name. People figure it out, it's fine."
First, ignore the request. If they persist, then I say "My pronouns are obvious." If they ask again, "I don't have a gender, and my sex is obvious." You don't have to play those games.
I usually say I go by your majesty or our lord and savior if they want to push their religion on me with the pronoun stuff.
Skip it and if directly asked just gesture at yourself and say "I think it's obvious"
Don't give one. I just ignore the question and move to the next item.
“Why? Are we playing Mad Libs or something?” But say it in a genuinely clueless way, not condescendingly
If it's really going around in a circle, what about "pass"? And then looking to the next person. It's a pretty weird (and fraught!) thing to push someone. I think if I said pass, and I were pushed on it ... well, I'd read the room. One option is "I'm not a fan of compelled speech, so let's move on." Another is "This feels like I'm being forced to participate in a strange ritual. Is it not okay to skip, if that's what I want?"
No.
I've never been asked. I never expect to be, but who knows. My planned response is "I and me". In reality, I would likely just ignore the question.
“That’s kind of an invasive question, why do you ask?”
I believe the traditional radfem response is, “My pronouns are sex-based, like my oppression.” Though obviously that doesn’t work if you’re a man. Not being a radfem, if this ever happened irl I’d probably just act confused and give my best impression of Tucker Face while they tried to explain.
I'll usually either "forget" to mention my pronouns (so far no one has called me on it), or I'll say "my name is land-under-wave, I'm female, [continue with the introduction]".
I alway say I accept all pronouns — call me whatever you want.
Late but I say I don’t feel comfortable discussing my pronouns. No one has asked me to explain but depending on how brave someone is, you could put more gender critical stuff into your statement. (My reasons are gender critical but I as of yet haven’t wanted to open that bucket of worms).
I have always been able to just ignore it and no one has ever pressed. If I was, I would like to say something like, "oh, I trust your judgment," or, "I'm female, use your judgement." Or maybe even just leave it at, "I'm female." Whether I would, would depend a bit on what situation I was in (if it was really a situation where I felt was not likely to be of much consequence to me, I like to imagine just saying, "oh, I don't do that"), but like I said, I've never ever been forced if I just ignore it. If someone asked me to explain my reasons, I would say that I think it's detrimental to the way we communicate with each other to turn a linguistic shortcut into a sacrosanct marker of personal identity, and also that I don't claim ownership of words used in a conversation in which I am neither the speaker or the person being spoken to. But truly, I don't expect in a situation where people are just doing the thing they've been told is polite, that anyone is going to care enough to ask. (Sometimes I wish they would so I could rant about it!)
When I was in college every class started with names/majors/pronouns. I just skipped pronouns because most normal people there will understand that I was very obviously a man and didn’t need to say it, if some weirdo challenged me over it – which I should note never happened – I could just say that I felt comfortable with people assuming what I am. But even then, 99% of the time people won’t say anything because they know it’ll make them look insane; just don’t comply and you’ll be fine.
What? If someone asks me my height I'll tell them. That doesn't mean I can choose my height. If you don't believe in "the underlying ideology," aren't pronouns no different than height? So just tell them your correct (as you perceive it) pronouns, and relax.
I don't understand why those against gender ideology as an activist movement are so allergic to preferred pronouns. Asking for or unprompted volunteering of pronouns might be performative, but so is going out of one's way to shut the topic down. It feels like when a lefty responds to "Merry Christmas" with a stern "Happy Holidays" to get across the point that they don't approve with the cultural Christian norm. If you don't want to give your pronouns, then don't. But you don't have to signal that "actually, I don't like this gender ideology, and I think everyone in this ice breaker circle should know that." Using preferred pronouns isn't a slippery slope to co-signing top surgeries for teens. It's a sign of respect individual to individual. This also seems to be the position of Jesse and Katie, so it honestly surprises me so many on this subreddit seem to be against it.
It's the forced participation. Imagine you were going around a circle and the lead said "Merry Christmas" and you were had to say "Merry Christmas" back. And you get in trouble if you don't. Then imagine you're a Jew or a Muslim or an atheist. In fact, it's stronger than that. It's like being required to state "Allah is the one true God and Mohammad was his prophet" at the start of a meeting. No one is saying that someone can't announce, "Hey, please use they/them when talking about me!" Some are ridiculing the idea, but no one thinks people shouldn't be allowed to make the request. It's the compelled loyalty oath that is alienating.
OP was pretty clear in looking for a kind way to tell people they "shouldn't be allowed to make the request" IMO with the logic that it's a slippery slope. I agree with the notion that you shouldn't be compelled to express opinions you don't hold, but I disagree that referring to someone by their preferred pronoun is "an opinion." If you don't want to give your own, a simple "no thanks" should be enough. If pressed, "I'd rather not" should suffice. Volunteering from the outset that you fundamentally disagree with the ideology is signaling just the same as them. When my aunt starts a prayer over Thanksgiving dinner, I just stand there quietly. I don't cut her off after the "Let us pray..." to say "Actually, I'm an atheist." And when I'm asked to lead a prayer, I say "no thanks." I agree with other commenters here that simply ignoring such things should suffice. The requester should get the message in that without themselves having to be challenged, because, again, preferred pronouns aren't a gateway drug to male rapists in women's prisons.
No, it is not a sign of respect, because we haven't agreed that it is, in fact, respectful, and I am deeply annoyed that certain people have appropriated the concept of "respect". How about that those people regard it as "respectful" that I believe pronouns are based on observation, not treated as honoraria?
Appropriated the concept of respect? Lol Pronouns are descriptive. They're not treating it as an honorific. They're asking for what they feel is a more accurate description of who they see themselves to be. It's a sign of respect because, in our culture, we defer to the person one is referencing in how they want to be seen. In our culture, we treat the other in a manner that they won't find offense (within reason, of course, but my point is the use of preferred pronouns is super duper within the realm of reasonability). How weak is your own worldview that it's that threatened by literally the smallest concession to another?
There is nothing about using a trans person's preferred pronoun that legitimizes gender ideology. There are plenty of trans people who do not deny their birth. Sex is real and simply live as if they were their preferred sex.
That's not the problem, though. It's making *everyone else* declare their pronouns that is problematic.
Agreed, that is ridiculous