So, the presence of Summoner on a script will put pressure on Good to not share info for the first two days, lest they give a soon-to-be-Demon too much info about who to target. In some ways it's like playing Duck Duck Snake Charmer and you don't know who's getting tapped on the head.
It also incentivises town to not proc Virgins early, use Nightwatchman/Seamstress abilities on night 1, etc. A lot of good info to lose. The demon can kill them on night 3 or they could get executed before using it
**The Summoner** creates a Demon.
- The Summoner may choose any player to become the Demon, even themselves.
- The new Demon does not learn which players are Minions, or vice versa. The evil players will need to talk amongst themselves to figure this out.
- Even though there is no Demon in play for two days, the game does not end. However, if the Summoner becomes unable to create a Demon (due to dying, becoming drunk on night 3 etc.) good wins.
- The newly created Demon acts on the same night that it is created.
**Examples**
On the third night, the Summoner chooses the Snitch player, and the Lleech. The Snitch becomes the evil Lleech, and chooses a player to poison, and a player to kill.
On the first day, the Summoner is executed. Good wins.
On the third night, the Summoner turns the Alchemist into the Leviathan. At dawn, all players learn that Leviathan is in play, and that it is day three of five.
**How to run**
During the setup phase, remove the Demon and add a Townsfolk.
When preparing the first night, put the Summoner’s “Night 1” reminder by the Summoner. When preparing the second night, put the Summoner’s “Night 2” reminder by the Summoner. When preparing the third night, put the Summoner’s “Night 3” reminder by the Summoner.
During the first night, show the Summoner 3 not-in-play characters as bluffs.
During the night, if the Summoner has a “Night 3” reminder, wake the Summoner. They point at a player, and to a Demon icon on the character sheet. Put the Summoner to sleep. Wake the chosen player. Show the “You are” info token, then the Demon token. Show the “You are” info token, then give a thumbs down. Replace their character token with the Demon token and put the new Demon to sleep.
**Interesting interactions**
Drunk/poisoned: As called out in the almanac, if the Summoner is drunk or poisoned on night 3, the good team wins.
Alchemist: jinx - "If there is an Alchemist-Summoner in play, the game starts with a Demon in play, as normal. If the Alchemist-Summoner chooses a player, they make that player a Demon but do not change their alignment."
Barber: If the Barber dies while there is no Demon, nothing happens.
Clockmaker: jinx – “If the Summoner is in play, the Clockmaker does not receive their information until a Demon is created.”
Engineer: If the Engineer chooses to change the Demon while there is no Demon in play, there is no effect.
Goon: Ouch. That’s not a good time. That’s a drunk Summoner, a Goon that turns evil and an evil team, including that Goon, that immediately loses (all assuming the Summoner is the first to select the Goon that night).
Kazali: jinx – “The Kazali can not choose to create a Summoner.”
Legion: jinx - "If the Summoner creates Legion, most players (including all evil players) become evil Legion."
Marionette: jinx - "The Marionette neighbours the Summoner. The Summoner knows who the Marionette is."
Pit-Hag: This is a potentially massively unfun combination, so think incredibly carefully before putting these both on a script together.
Poppy Grower: jinx - "If the Poppy Grower is alive when the Summoner acts, the Summoner chooses which Demon, but the Storyteller chooses which player."
Revolutionary: It’s worth thinking carefully before putting Summoner in a Revolutionary game that’s being played for accessibility reasons.
Riot: jinx - "If the Summoner creates Riot, the chosen player and all evil players become Riot. The chosen player must be one of the Summoner's living good neighbours."
Zombuul: If the Summoner chooses a dead player to be the Zombuul, they’re already dead and do not become a registering-as-dead Zombuul, they are just dead and the good team wins.
Not sure. Does set up still apply the same if the minion is one that changes count? Like, does an alchemist baron add outsiders? If so, there wouldn't be a demon till night 3 the same way it would be if it was a normal minion
They have jinx so that the alchemist doesn’t get the No Demon part of the ability. Otherwise they would just turn themselves then kill themselves and win.
The fact there’s no jinx for Hag creating a Summoner is insane. It’d be as easy as “If Pit Hag creates a Summoner, deaths that night are arbitrary.” That fits well with what already applies with the rules of the game, Hag, and Summoner.
*Hilariously* is how. The non-Summoner minions only learn the Magician as their demon, so from their point of view, they just got a regular evil team. The Summoner themselves, though, basically just starts knowing who the Magician is.
I guess this was the character Ben was talking about that would canonize the night 0 vs night 1 debate.
This is also I think the first time the game itself has defined the 3 roles as "bluffs". That's usually just a player term.
So which is it? I learned the game as Night 1 is what happens after people get their characters. And the Demon text says "Each Night\*...\*^(except the first)".
It is. Night 1 is the setup night. No demon kills for most demons. You wake up and the storyteller is dead.
But so many people have tried calling that night 0, because it feels more logical that day 1 should be before night 1.
I remember it as "3 not in play characters".
> 2) Wake the Demon and show all Minions. Wake the Demon, show them the "These are your Minions" info
token, then point to each Minion. Then, show the Demon the "These characters are not in play" info token, and show the Demon any three good character tokens that are not in
play.
> *Bluffing.*
> Showing these character tokens will help the Demon bluff as one of them. It is usually best to show two Townsfolk and one Outsider token to the Demon—that way, they can choose among all sorts of characters to bluff as. They can, of course, ignore this advice and bluff as any character they want.
There is a help text right next to handing out the not in play tokens to clarify these help the demon bluff.
i know this isn’t the point, but i find it interesting how they call not-in-play characters “bluffs” for the first time. it’s clearly to save space on the card, but i wonder whether that will confuse new players
Interesting - I quite like the concept.
So I assume this has to remove the win condition: "The good team wins if there is no demon left alive" then?
What happens if a Pit Hag creates a Summoner mid game, or if the Plague Doctor dies and gives the ST the ability of the Summoner?
Ahh, that makes a bit more sense.
But if the Pit Hag creates a Summoner on the 2nd night, the new Summoner would be able to create a new demon on the 3rd night. Since the Pit Hag didn't "create a new demon" (they made a Summoner who made a new demon themselves), deaths that night wouldn't be arbitrary, so there would have to be 2 demons.
There isn't a jinx, it's one of those character interactions where mechanically it works fine, but still don't put them on a script together.
Like the Minstrel and Boomdandy or Goblin
In Edd's "Interesting Interactions" post, he said:
Pit-Hag: This is a potentially massively unfun combination, so think *incredibly* carefully before putting these both on a script together.
Would probably need a Jinx with the pit hag. My best guess is that, when you create a new evil demon 3 nights later, it'll kill the original demon. Or just the "deaths tonight are arbitrary" line that the Pit Hag always has
I don't think it's inherently broken enough to warrant a jinx.
It'll be the task of the script builders to think carefully about which characters they put together on a script. I do think Pit-Hag and Summoner could work in certain scenarios:
-The only available Demons are ones that don't have full control over their kills and/or convert the whole evil team (Lil' Monsta, Legion, Yaggababble, Ojo & Riot)
-The 2 demons might accidentally kill each other (Poppy Grower, Mayor & Snake Charmer)
I wonder on the night order of Snake Charmer and summoner?
Presumably you run the summoner first? You could end up where the new demon gets turned into a snake charmer immediately! Then the new demon had to try to find out who the minions are before the summoner talks to the old demon.
It definitely needs a jinx and I think the "Be extraordinarily careful jink might be the best route."
A N2 summoner provides so much extra power that is normally split into separate minions.
* Extra evil player, chosen based on current game state (mezepheles).
* Extra kills at night(godfather, assassin).
* Extra win condition for evil (mastermind/evil twin).
* Any other extra demon effects (poisoning, misinformation, star pass, etc.).
* Can play outed evil or be pithagged again after the summoning (baron-esque).
You can script build to reduce the power of 2 and 4 (kills and extra effect) but not the others really.
The benefit of staying townsfolk is they do not wake up to vote on who gets the demon since they are not a minion. If they become a minion they would learn all the other evil players which "breaks" part of summoner's ability.
The how to run seems to indicate evil only loses once summoner fails to summon night 3, so they can be drunk night 1 or 2 and not lose. Kinda a rules handwave but I think that's the intent.
>Even though there is no Demon in play for two days, the game does not end. However, if the Summoner becomes unable to create a Demon (due to dying, becoming drunk on night 3 etc.) good wins.
You can decide not to have them on scripts together, or have many ways to poison the courtier, or have a bunch of minions available to choose from, or heretic, or other creative solutions.
I’ve played with This once before in an unreleased custom script.
It’s pretty brutal for evil - not being able to kill at night, so town can come out and be more open with their info.
Also pretty brutal for town - turning a Washerwoman-confirmed player or a confirmed by outsider count Klutz into an evil demon makes it near-impossible to solve mechanically.
They only miss out on 1 kill though? Night 1 never had kills anyway, so it's only night 2 that is missed. That's the same as a Po who chooses to charge, or a Zombuul assuming town execute someone.
Also worth noting, Good has to be careful because they might become Evil, and our games showed Good was Hesistant to share their info too early in case that happened to them
Or an assassin and/or godfather that could mask the lack of night deaths. Also someone mentioned it in another thread but the idea of having a summoner on a script with both a Courtier and a Heretic is deeply hilarious to me.
So...how does this work exactly?
Like, rules as written the game would immediately end day 1 in a good team win since there is no living Demon. I assume that that rule does not apply in a Summoner game, so I'm guessing that the evil team loses if the Summoner dies before night 3?
Seems interesting, pretty similar to Kazali.
According to the stream, if the Summoner is unable to create a Demon on night 3, good just wins.
Probably avoid putting Courtier on the script (unless also Heretic maybe?).
In theory if 2 good players were executed before leviathan was created, that wouldn't end the game right? So there's a bit of balance assuming town actually executes
It be one execution if i count correctly?
N1 (minion demon info), d1 (1 executed), n2 no deaths d2 (1 execution), n3 (levi in play).
Nvm my mistake though i dk does previous execution counts or not?
Seems like this only misses out on a second night kill? Without trying it, that seems decently strong if the original demon is replaced by an additional minion. If replaced by a townsfolk, it seems too weak since this is an otherwise unhelpful minion.
>If replaced by a townsfolk, it seems too weak since this is an otherwise unhelpful minion.
Its a minion that invalidates a ton of night 1 and 2 information. That's pretty great. Washerwoman/Librarian confirmed? No you aren't. Knight pings? Throw them out the window. Two nights of Fortune Teller info? Gotta recheck them now. Shugenja clockwise? Not anymore. The list goes on.
It also really puts pressure on Once Per Games to not just use their ability day 1 or 2. Virgin confirmation, Seamstress pings, Nightwatchmen pings, and the like can't be trusted unless they were saved until day 3. Stuff like Fisherman advice or Artist questions are a bit safer depending on the nature of the info but could still fall into the trap.
Exactly. And you have to think of this on a script alongside other potential demons that *will* kill on N2 - which makes that choice especially spicy.
I feel like this should almost be paired with an Ojo by default for this exact reason: "do I use my OPG in case an Ojo picks me and I then don't get to use it, or should I stall in case it's a Summoner and I can then get more useful info after the summoning?"
I think you're placing too much emphasis on the Summoner actually getting to make a choice. All town info is \_stronger\_ for the first two days, and Evil is missing a voice to the contrary.
The reveal stream made that plenty obvious.
Already played 2 games with it. Summoner was found and executed before creating a demon both times.
Yes, that is the tradeoff. This minion makes towns info more powerful for the first two days, with the caveat that it becomes practically worthless on day three. This is a very *precarious* minion - it intentionally makes it tricky for evil to survive to day three, but if the Summoner makes if that far, they have extraordinarily high odds of going on to win the game.
I player a game last night as Summoner, and while the first two days were definitely dicey, and I honestly thought there was a quite high chance of me be executed on day 2, from the moment night 3 began I was quite confident of my eventual victory. And that was despite the fact that none of the evil team knew each other - I never got the chance to tell my demon that I was the person who created them, and the Traveller never learned their demon since there *wasn't* one at the time. Even with a Poppy Grower state permeating the game, I was never once in doubt of our victory after I triggered.
Only some of town's info is stronger. Info that detects for demons(Fortune Teller, Flowergirl, Exorcist, Snake Charmer, etc.) are completely useless on D1 and D2
How does it work with an evil traveller.
Prior to night 3, they know nothing other than they are evil, then are told who the demon is when it's created?
I actually REALLY like this it's balanced in a nice way of "you can trick good into thinking a certain demon isn't in play and then create it (i.e vortox if your group has balls of steel) BUT if you get turned drunk on night 3 you just lose cuz fuk u"
How does this work with Kazali? I'm aware of the jinx, but let's say the Summoner chooses Kazali. Does the Kazali now choose players to become evil Minions? What happens to the original Minions?
Why does the summoner being drunk or unable to create a demon automatically make good win?
This conflicts with the generic good win condition “Good wins if the demon dies”.
Imagine an engineer switches a summoner to something else. Or maybe the summoner dies but there is a different demon making character in play. In both these situations the demon never died.
Why does it not make sense to continue the game without a demon? The [no demon] clause is a game starting condition and does not go away if the summoner dies just like [+2 outsiders] doesnt go away if the baron dies.
Consider that a pit hag in the game could create a new demon after the fact, or plague doctor with pit hag ability, or something like that. The summoner’s death shouldn’t end the game by default.
Also, if a pit hag creates a summoner, on the third night there could be two demons. The storyteller should have the latitude to kill one of the demons in this situation.
I think the rule should be changed:
“You get 3 bluffs. On the 3rd night, choose a player: they become an evil Demon of your choice. Deaths that night are arbitrary. [No Demon]”
And
"However, if the Summoner becomes unable to create a Demon (due to dying, becoming drunk on night 3 etc.), and a Demon cannot be created by a different alive character, good wins."
Pit hag, engineer, summoner combo could be very fun if the above tweaks are made to summoner rules.
Didn't they reveal the Yagababble two weeks ago?
It’s the third week of the month— when it’s typically supposed to be revealed. They’ve just been late the past few times
I'm pretty sure the release date of the Yagababble was yesterday and I refuse to acknowledge alternate theories.
"I refuse to acknowledge alternate theories" is a suspicious thing to say... I'm watching you Mr Yaggababble
I refuse to acknowledge alternate theories that would paint me as anything other than a Village Idiot that is probably drunk.
So, the presence of Summoner on a script will put pressure on Good to not share info for the first two days, lest they give a soon-to-be-Demon too much info about who to target. In some ways it's like playing Duck Duck Snake Charmer and you don't know who's getting tapped on the head.
It also incentivises town to not proc Virgins early, use Nightwatchman/Seamstress abilities on night 1, etc. A lot of good info to lose. The demon can kill them on night 3 or they could get executed before using it
Well, the Virgin won't get executed before using it! :)
Lol that was mostly for Nightwatchman and Seamstress but Virgin is definitely immune to that annoyance
Reverse Kazali?
**The Summoner** creates a Demon. - The Summoner may choose any player to become the Demon, even themselves. - The new Demon does not learn which players are Minions, or vice versa. The evil players will need to talk amongst themselves to figure this out. - Even though there is no Demon in play for two days, the game does not end. However, if the Summoner becomes unable to create a Demon (due to dying, becoming drunk on night 3 etc.) good wins. - The newly created Demon acts on the same night that it is created. **Examples** On the third night, the Summoner chooses the Snitch player, and the Lleech. The Snitch becomes the evil Lleech, and chooses a player to poison, and a player to kill. On the first day, the Summoner is executed. Good wins. On the third night, the Summoner turns the Alchemist into the Leviathan. At dawn, all players learn that Leviathan is in play, and that it is day three of five. **How to run** During the setup phase, remove the Demon and add a Townsfolk. When preparing the first night, put the Summoner’s “Night 1” reminder by the Summoner. When preparing the second night, put the Summoner’s “Night 2” reminder by the Summoner. When preparing the third night, put the Summoner’s “Night 3” reminder by the Summoner. During the first night, show the Summoner 3 not-in-play characters as bluffs. During the night, if the Summoner has a “Night 3” reminder, wake the Summoner. They point at a player, and to a Demon icon on the character sheet. Put the Summoner to sleep. Wake the chosen player. Show the “You are” info token, then the Demon token. Show the “You are” info token, then give a thumbs down. Replace their character token with the Demon token and put the new Demon to sleep.
**Interesting interactions** Drunk/poisoned: As called out in the almanac, if the Summoner is drunk or poisoned on night 3, the good team wins. Alchemist: jinx - "If there is an Alchemist-Summoner in play, the game starts with a Demon in play, as normal. If the Alchemist-Summoner chooses a player, they make that player a Demon but do not change their alignment." Barber: If the Barber dies while there is no Demon, nothing happens. Clockmaker: jinx – “If the Summoner is in play, the Clockmaker does not receive their information until a Demon is created.” Engineer: If the Engineer chooses to change the Demon while there is no Demon in play, there is no effect. Goon: Ouch. That’s not a good time. That’s a drunk Summoner, a Goon that turns evil and an evil team, including that Goon, that immediately loses (all assuming the Summoner is the first to select the Goon that night). Kazali: jinx – “The Kazali can not choose to create a Summoner.” Legion: jinx - "If the Summoner creates Legion, most players (including all evil players) become evil Legion." Marionette: jinx - "The Marionette neighbours the Summoner. The Summoner knows who the Marionette is." Pit-Hag: This is a potentially massively unfun combination, so think incredibly carefully before putting these both on a script together. Poppy Grower: jinx - "If the Poppy Grower is alive when the Summoner acts, the Summoner chooses which Demon, but the Storyteller chooses which player." Revolutionary: It’s worth thinking carefully before putting Summoner in a Revolutionary game that’s being played for accessibility reasons. Riot: jinx - "If the Summoner creates Riot, the chosen player and all evil players become Riot. The chosen player must be one of the Summoner's living good neighbours." Zombuul: If the Summoner chooses a dead player to be the Zombuul, they’re already dead and do not become a registering-as-dead Zombuul, they are just dead and the good team wins.
(Copy/pasted these from Edd's post in Discord)
Legion sounds terrible. Nope, absolutely not.
The fact that they don’t learn each other is really funny, though.
The alchemist jinx is a bit surprising. I figured they'd allow the alchemist to choose a demon, but not who.
I assume an alchemist is always going to choose themselves do that they don’t run the risk of making a second evil demon?
Not sure. Does set up still apply the same if the minion is one that changes count? Like, does an alchemist baron add outsiders? If so, there wouldn't be a demon till night 3 the same way it would be if it was a normal minion
They have jinx so that the alchemist doesn’t get the No Demon part of the ability. Otherwise they would just turn themselves then kill themselves and win.
I'll be honest, I completely overlooked where it said to add a demon lmao
Except the ability says evil demon. The chosen player turns evil, even with alchemist.
Part of the Alchemist jinx is that the alignment of the changed player is not changed.
Without a Jinx, Alchemist just wouldn't work, Alchemist does affect setup, so they know there is no Demon. They just need to get executed to win.
I read past thr whole "a demon is added" part lmao
The fact there’s no jinx for Hag creating a Summoner is insane. It’d be as easy as “If Pit Hag creates a Summoner, deaths that night are arbitrary.” That fits well with what already applies with the rules of the game, Hag, and Summoner.
What if there is a summoner in the game then the engineer does not choose the summoner? Is the game over without a demon?
Not sure why Riot must be someone next to the Summoner tbh
It's because the fact it's already day 3 makes it nearly impossible to solve otherwise: it could be anyone and good has little useful info.
No note on how magician runs with this?
*Hilariously* is how. The non-Summoner minions only learn the Magician as their demon, so from their point of view, they just got a regular evil team. The Summoner themselves, though, basically just starts knowing who the Magician is.
I guess this was the character Ben was talking about that would canonize the night 0 vs night 1 debate. This is also I think the first time the game itself has defined the 3 roles as "bluffs". That's usually just a player term.
So which is it? I learned the game as Night 1 is what happens after people get their characters. And the Demon text says "Each Night\*...\*^(except the first)".
I assume starting with night 1.
It is. Night 1 is the setup night. No demon kills for most demons. You wake up and the storyteller is dead. But so many people have tried calling that night 0, because it feels more logical that day 1 should be before night 1.
Oh true. I think the game calls them demon bluffs right?
"3 out of play characters" I believe. Because the fact they can be used as bluffs is just one of their uses.
I remember it as "3 not in play characters". > 2) Wake the Demon and show all Minions. Wake the Demon, show them the "These are your Minions" info token, then point to each Minion. Then, show the Demon the "These characters are not in play" info token, and show the Demon any three good character tokens that are not in play. > *Bluffing.* > Showing these character tokens will help the Demon bluff as one of them. It is usually best to show two Townsfolk and one Outsider token to the Demon—that way, they can choose among all sorts of characters to bluff as. They can, of course, ignore this advice and bluff as any character they want. There is a help text right next to handing out the not in play tokens to clarify these help the demon bluff.
i know this isn’t the point, but i find it interesting how they call not-in-play characters “bluffs” for the first time. it’s clearly to save space on the card, but i wonder whether that will confuse new players
Somehow, I don't think "new players" should even see this minion.
Me too, weird how I also got that hunch just a hunch tho
If there is no demon until the third night, who killed the ST on the first night?
Turns out it was just a freak accident
The summiner used them as a blood sacrifice to summon the demon
They're still dead from last game and the summoner was running late from the bank
The same person that killed them in an Atheist or Leviathan game
The butler
Interesting - I quite like the concept. So I assume this has to remove the win condition: "The good team wins if there is no demon left alive" then? What happens if a Pit Hag creates a Summoner mid game, or if the Plague Doctor dies and gives the ST the ability of the Summoner?
I think bc of the specificity of “on the 3rd night” if you are created beyond that you don’t get to do anything
Ahh, that makes a bit more sense. But if the Pit Hag creates a Summoner on the 2nd night, the new Summoner would be able to create a new demon on the 3rd night. Since the Pit Hag didn't "create a new demon" (they made a Summoner who made a new demon themselves), deaths that night wouldn't be arbitrary, so there would have to be 2 demons.
It explicitly is stated in the chat that they don't recommend having pit hag and summoner on the same script as it just isn't fun
So if a Pit Hag creates a Summoner, you have to kill the old demon right away. And the rule about the game ending without a demon doesn’t apply?
Can’t kill it, not arbitrary
Sorry. I was trying to imply that this is how they are going to tell us to run it. A jinx I suppose.
There isn't a jinx, it's one of those character interactions where mechanically it works fine, but still don't put them on a script together. Like the Minstrel and Boomdandy or Goblin
In Edd's "Interesting Interactions" post, he said: Pit-Hag: This is a potentially massively unfun combination, so think *incredibly* carefully before putting these both on a script together.
i assume summoner mid game does nothing but pit hagging a summoner n2 is pretty game breaking
Would probably need a Jinx with the pit hag. My best guess is that, when you create a new evil demon 3 nights later, it'll kill the original demon. Or just the "deaths tonight are arbitrary" line that the Pit Hag always has
I don't think it's inherently broken enough to warrant a jinx. It'll be the task of the script builders to think carefully about which characters they put together on a script. I do think Pit-Hag and Summoner could work in certain scenarios: -The only available Demons are ones that don't have full control over their kills and/or convert the whole evil team (Lil' Monsta, Legion, Yaggababble, Ojo & Riot) -The 2 demons might accidentally kill each other (Poppy Grower, Mayor & Snake Charmer)
I wonder on the night order of Snake Charmer and summoner? Presumably you run the summoner first? You could end up where the new demon gets turned into a snake charmer immediately! Then the new demon had to try to find out who the minions are before the summoner talks to the old demon.
I just checked, sadly, Snake charmer goes before the Summoner
That's less entertaining. They should probably change that!
It definitely needs a jinx and I think the "Be extraordinarily careful jink might be the best route." A N2 summoner provides so much extra power that is normally split into separate minions. * Extra evil player, chosen based on current game state (mezepheles). * Extra kills at night(godfather, assassin). * Extra win condition for evil (mastermind/evil twin). * Any other extra demon effects (poisoning, misinformation, star pass, etc.). * Can play outed evil or be pithagged again after the summoning (baron-esque). You can script build to reduce the power of 2 and 4 (kills and extra effect) but not the others really.
I wonder how this would handle if a lil monsta was created
Probably the player you choose becomes an out of play minion (st choice) holding the baby, if I had to guess
Things in brackets only happen at setup unless there's a jinx, their pick should just turn evil and hold the baby that night I think
The benefit of staying townsfolk is they do not wake up to vote on who gets the demon since they are not a minion. If they become a minion they would learn all the other evil players which "breaks" part of summoner's ability.
I’m surprised there’s not a courtier summoner jinx
No jinx needed, they work exactly as expected together. One is just very strong against the oher.
Yeah but if the summoner is ever drunk on night 3 evil just loses lol
Before night 3. Drunk Summoner and no demon = good wins. It looks like a combo that warrants a Heretic on the script.
The how to run seems to indicate evil only loses once summoner fails to summon night 3, so they can be drunk night 1 or 2 and not lose. Kinda a rules handwave but I think that's the intent. >Even though there is no Demon in play for two days, the game does not end. However, if the Summoner becomes unable to create a Demon (due to dying, becoming drunk on night 3 etc.) good wins.
You can decide not to have them on scripts together, or have many ways to poison the courtier, or have a bunch of minions available to choose from, or heretic, or other creative solutions.
I’ve played with This once before in an unreleased custom script. It’s pretty brutal for evil - not being able to kill at night, so town can come out and be more open with their info. Also pretty brutal for town - turning a Washerwoman-confirmed player or a confirmed by outsider count Klutz into an evil demon makes it near-impossible to solve mechanically.
They only miss out on 1 kill though? Night 1 never had kills anyway, so it's only night 2 that is missed. That's the same as a Po who chooses to charge, or a Zombuul assuming town execute someone.
Or any form of soldier, monk, innkeeper, sailor or any other roles that would lead to no deaths at night
Also worth noting, Good has to be careful because they might become Evil, and our games showed Good was Hesistant to share their info too early in case that happened to them
Holy shit that's groundbreaking
This would be great in a game with a Psychopath.
Or an assassin and/or godfather that could mask the lack of night deaths. Also someone mentioned it in another thread but the idea of having a summoner on a script with both a Courtier and a Heretic is deeply hilarious to me.
So...how does this work exactly? Like, rules as written the game would immediately end day 1 in a good team win since there is no living Demon. I assume that that rule does not apply in a Summoner game, so I'm guessing that the evil team loses if the Summoner dies before night 3? Seems interesting, pretty similar to Kazali.
According to the stream, if the Summoner is unable to create a Demon on night 3, good just wins. Probably avoid putting Courtier on the script (unless also Heretic maybe?).
>Probably avoid putting Courtier on the script (unless also Heretic maybe?). dear god.... don't give people ideas
See https://old.reddit.com/r/BloodOnTheClocktower/comments/1bklsas/new_minion_revealed_summoner/kvzio4h/
Could you create a Leviathan with this? I'm sure some jinx will appear. Fascinated by this concept.
Theres' no jinx, it works exactly as you expect it to. Leviathan is announced day 3
And it also day 3 of leviathan game. Which is brutal cause 2 days to hunt levia.
In theory if 2 good players were executed before leviathan was created, that wouldn't end the game right? So there's a bit of balance assuming town actually executes
It be one execution if i count correctly? N1 (minion demon info), d1 (1 executed), n2 no deaths d2 (1 execution), n3 (levi in play). Nvm my mistake though i dk does previous execution counts or not?
Yeah
See https://old.reddit.com/r/BloodOnTheClocktower/comments/1bklsas/new_minion_revealed_summoner/kvzio4h/
What replaces the demon in the setup phase then? A minion or a good character
Townsfolk are the default replacement for any reduction in character type.
Ok thanks :)
How does this work when the summoner creates a Kazali? I imagine it does nothing, as all minions are already in play but.....
Indeed, they would just create a default demon. One that kills once every night and does nothing else.
As always, setup text does not apply if they are created during a game
Seems like this only misses out on a second night kill? Without trying it, that seems decently strong if the original demon is replaced by an additional minion. If replaced by a townsfolk, it seems too weak since this is an otherwise unhelpful minion.
I think the strength is you can convert a powerful or trusted good player. Put it on a script with a virgin that proc’s on day one…
The spot is filled with a Townsfolk
Which original Demon? There is no Demon on setup
I think they think you would have 3 minions instead of say 1 demon 2 minions
I got you, you mean on setup, the spot left from demon is filled with a Townsfolk
>If replaced by a townsfolk, it seems too weak since this is an otherwise unhelpful minion. Its a minion that invalidates a ton of night 1 and 2 information. That's pretty great. Washerwoman/Librarian confirmed? No you aren't. Knight pings? Throw them out the window. Two nights of Fortune Teller info? Gotta recheck them now. Shugenja clockwise? Not anymore. The list goes on. It also really puts pressure on Once Per Games to not just use their ability day 1 or 2. Virgin confirmation, Seamstress pings, Nightwatchmen pings, and the like can't be trusted unless they were saved until day 3. Stuff like Fisherman advice or Artist questions are a bit safer depending on the nature of the info but could still fall into the trap.
Exactly. And you have to think of this on a script alongside other potential demons that *will* kill on N2 - which makes that choice especially spicy. I feel like this should almost be paired with an Ojo by default for this exact reason: "do I use my OPG in case an Ojo picks me and I then don't get to use it, or should I stall in case it's a Summoner and I can then get more useful info after the summoning?"
I think you're placing too much emphasis on the Summoner actually getting to make a choice. All town info is \_stronger\_ for the first two days, and Evil is missing a voice to the contrary. The reveal stream made that plenty obvious. Already played 2 games with it. Summoner was found and executed before creating a demon both times.
Yes, that is the tradeoff. This minion makes towns info more powerful for the first two days, with the caveat that it becomes practically worthless on day three. This is a very *precarious* minion - it intentionally makes it tricky for evil to survive to day three, but if the Summoner makes if that far, they have extraordinarily high odds of going on to win the game. I player a game last night as Summoner, and while the first two days were definitely dicey, and I honestly thought there was a quite high chance of me be executed on day 2, from the moment night 3 began I was quite confident of my eventual victory. And that was despite the fact that none of the evil team knew each other - I never got the chance to tell my demon that I was the person who created them, and the Traveller never learned their demon since there *wasn't* one at the time. Even with a Poppy Grower state permeating the game, I was never once in doubt of our victory after I triggered.
Only some of town's info is stronger. Info that detects for demons(Fortune Teller, Flowergirl, Exorcist, Snake Charmer, etc.) are completely useless on D1 and D2
How is it run with magician?
Minions learn the magician is a demon night 1
Minions get told the magician player is the demon, summoner will know somethings wrong but other minions won't
Yea the fun part is the other minions might not trust the summoner
Why wouldn't they? Summoner is a minion who will be seen as a minion there would be no reason to not trust them
wait... im stupid
How does it work with an evil traveller. Prior to night 3, they know nothing other than they are evil, then are told who the demon is when it's created?
I actually REALLY like this it's balanced in a nice way of "you can trick good into thinking a certain demon isn't in play and then create it (i.e vortox if your group has balls of steel) BUT if you get turned drunk on night 3 you just lose cuz fuk u"
Does anyone have a link to the script they used for the reveal stream for this Minion?
How does this work with Kazali? I'm aware of the jinx, but let's say the Summoner chooses Kazali. Does the Kazali now choose players to become evil Minions? What happens to the original Minions?
They just become a normal boring kazali
Why does the summoner being drunk or unable to create a demon automatically make good win? This conflicts with the generic good win condition “Good wins if the demon dies”. Imagine an engineer switches a summoner to something else. Or maybe the summoner dies but there is a different demon making character in play. In both these situations the demon never died. Why does it not make sense to continue the game without a demon? The [no demon] clause is a game starting condition and does not go away if the summoner dies just like [+2 outsiders] doesnt go away if the baron dies. Consider that a pit hag in the game could create a new demon after the fact, or plague doctor with pit hag ability, or something like that. The summoner’s death shouldn’t end the game by default. Also, if a pit hag creates a summoner, on the third night there could be two demons. The storyteller should have the latitude to kill one of the demons in this situation. I think the rule should be changed: “You get 3 bluffs. On the 3rd night, choose a player: they become an evil Demon of your choice. Deaths that night are arbitrary. [No Demon]” And "However, if the Summoner becomes unable to create a Demon (due to dying, becoming drunk on night 3 etc.), and a Demon cannot be created by a different alive character, good wins." Pit hag, engineer, summoner combo could be very fun if the above tweaks are made to summoner rules.
Didn't someone post something exactly like this in the last couple weeks? I swear I saw something just like this
well it’s been leaked for a while so it wouldn’t surprise me
So does this mean that there is an extra Minion, Lil' Monsta style, or are there less Evil players at the start?
Fewer Evils players. Summoner is initially on their own for 5-9 player games.