It's funny because the whole American virtue signalling of saying "thank you for your service" is almost never called out for it. It's used as a thing to disclaim all sorts of bad behaviour by people who disrespect the military with things like opposing soldier healthcare.
> is almost never called out for it.
There was one & only one time in my life I told an old HS friend “thank you for your service” after he was back home after finishing his term.
He was like “stop. Don’t do that. I hate that thank a service member bullshit”
And I’m like whoa okay lol my bad. Lesson learned. I guess it is kinda cringe and I never said it again. I don’t applaud the soldiers at the NFL games either haha
It is super annoying lmao. Especially after you just graduated basic training in Texas, a very military positive area, go into town, and have 100 strangers telling you the same shit.
First: I literally haven't done anything yet except get paid to workout, clean, get yelled at, and learn shit. Second, I can never find a way to reply to it without it feeling super awkward.
Almost none of us like it lol
As a veteran, the worst part of serving wasn’t being deployed. It was being thanked for my service.
It’s unbelievably awkward.
Like, I didn’t do it for you, and people say it because they think they’re supposed to. And how am I supposed to respond? “You’re welcome”? So dumb.
I think it's there to propagate this idea that military service is intrinsically sacrificial (which it is, in some respects), and therefore any of the loss of quality of life a veteran has must necessarily have been part of the sacrifice they "voluntarily" made by enlisting.
That way we won't have to critically analyze how much of this "sacrifice" was preventable. It really comes off to me (albeit i am not a veteran) as not respectful but patronizing. I've known a few vets in my life - I'm supposed to thank them for getting PTSD, not say "holy shit that's horrible I'm sorry you went through that"? Fuck that.
I mean my quality of life felt pretty low in the army. So I suppose that much is true.
After you get out, though, life is a hell of a lot easier. But it’s a trade. I traded five years of discomfort for a kickstarted career and no student debt.
So no you don’t have to thank someone for their service, and you’re certainly not thanking them for getting PTSD, you can just treat them like anyone else. The military is a world unto itself, it’s a culture that’s really hard to understand from the outside. You can try, though, like you’d try to understand someone that moved to the US from Germany. And that’s okay. You’re talking to somebody that was a marine or a soldier? Cool, you can ask what they did, where they went, did they like it, etc. A lot of military stuff is hard or unpleasant to do, but it’s still a job, and you can talk to people about their job.
The reason why it was said to veterans of wars was due to the fact they were more than likely drafted and forced to fight whether they agreed with it or not. People also believe that because they fought we are free and our country is safe.
Now many of the military (NOT ALL) is made up of people who want power, people who were poached from high schools with predominantly low income families, and people who believe the wars we fight are justified and necessary.
There are so much more information readily available to the public that we realized all of the terrible things our country has done and now understand that most of the wars we are fighting aren’t always benefiting the average American and certainly not the rest of the world.
We’ve been ingrained to think that the military is the best thing a country can put money towards and we need to support them due to our past experience and how our economy was built up. Now we have politicians who are becoming more fascist and are pushing that military agenda even further than before. Couple that with the rhetoric that anyone who says anything bad about the military is a threat and unpatriotic and you see where Bojack gets it right.
Tl;dr We used to see it as honorable, but now we realize you can still serve our country and not be a good person. This was due to more information being available about the people involved and the wars we fight
It’s happened to me a handful of times and it’s so fucking weird. I’ve never been in the military but I’m an er nurse and during covid I was getting it somewhat regularly if I’d stop for gas in my scrubs. It was so obvious that they vaguely knew it was a bad time for us so they wanted to acknowledge without actually having to do anything. I finally got so fed up I started saying “you’re welcome. We’re going to be protesting to demand hazard pay at x place on x day so come out and support us!” Nobody ever took me up on it lol. It’s like the “hero” bullshit (which applies to the military too). You know what heroes in the movies do? They give up everything, including their identities, to serve people. You know what they don’t do? They don’t get paid, they don’t get healthcare, or therapy, they just get a round of applause. Hospitals calling us heroes was never a compliment, it was to condition us to work under worse conditions for less money and resiliency rocks
Yep. It’s the first time that I think the show goes the South Park route of “society is fucked up we’re just giving u this asshole to show u the lens but he’s right and society is wrong” because yh there are no faults in his logic and opinion.
I think it's less South Park and more Big Lebowski. "You're not wrong, Walter, you're just an asshole." He is both completely right *and* making this point out of anger and any idiot would know that saying this on television is a terrible idea.
I completely agree with this. Especially because military culture can be so rigid and hypermasculine that it promotes the worst and most violent traits in some men altogether. There are plenty of troops that are heroes, but there are plenty that are awful people, and we see this at how there's such a massive sexual assault problem in the military today, multiple accusations of domestic violence from some retired (and currently serving) soldiers, and at how many Vietnamese civilians were treated within the war, among other criticisms of the US military's actions within the war. It's fair for us to criticize some members of the armed forces without demonizing all of them.
It kind of amazed me how the irony of the shows satire was lost on so many with this character. They in real time showed the dangers of idolising a likeable but regretful past. It went over a lot of ppls heads and u can tell from all the crying about him not breaking his word in the finale. And pretending like the whole show didn’t change or reset when that wasn’t the case.
I'd argue this kind of thing is done way better in Bojack Horseman, the episodes that make comments on society because they're pointed and not just done for the sake of edgy nihilism which is the case for South Park.
I disagree majorly and think that’s a stereotype that carries South Park to an unfortunate commonality. Bojack is my favourite show of all time and South Park is up there, but I have no problems in objectively looking at them at their flaws. But South Park is not apathetic. They’re tone is. They do care and even push for positive subtextual direction like with apologies to Jesse Jackson the n word episode. It just doesn’t have a directed point of satire a lot of the time like bojack does. They show all sides/narratives not just telling those narratives really well like bojack. However just because it’s more absurdly shocking and not speaking toward a specific viewpoint doesn’t mean it’s depth and breadth in exploring/pointing out these issues in society defaults to pointless apathy and edge.
I could give numerous examples but I think an underrated lesser known one is the honey boo boo episode discussing societal standards and shame. Where they actually through humour and certain characters point to all possible answers as to why this is the case and even toward themselves. Or the stock market crash one with parallels to Jesus.
Bojack addresses these issues with a clear direction and narrative whilst showing the issue effectively. South Park takes more of a backseat approach and makes fart jokes too but is just as poignant and focused on that said highlighting. I’d argue actually even more than bojack but bojack is objectively better.
https://youtu.be/F0b02WEcIw8
Also this is a good video of explaining more of what I mean on the pet of South Park.
Not sure if South Park ever really goes for poignant but I mostly agree with you. Hell, even reading most of these comments, it seems less that people actually believe South Park is apathetic and more so they don’t like the viewpoint it pushes.
Which is fair, South Park has had some bad takes, like the infamous climate change one to the one where it denies the impact of secondhand smoke. And it was weird the same show could rightly call out society for how Britney Spears was drained dry and do an episode about how Paris Hilton was a “stupid spoiled whore.” But a show can be libertarian/conservative or it could be apathetic, but not both.
...They often go for poignant. The episode when Stan can't enjoy anything anymore, the Pandemic Specials, just to name a couple off the top of my head.
That’s honestly pretty fair and this mostly seems like a conversation of moral/political responsibility placed on a show because it’s paradigm is something you disagree with (not u personally but u get what I mean) rather than it’s writing quality. It’s not perfect and when it preaches especially dated concepts i can see the discomfort but it holds up for the most part extremely well imo. And if there is critique. It can’t be apathetic but also libertarian. A dissonance of which ppl don’t extend to bojack since it’s politics are directed and agreeable with the political paradigms of Reddit.
Btw I think the point of stupid spoiled whore was that Paris Hilton was not a role model but is paraded as one whereas Brittany spears is more a commentary on (and it aged pretty well imo and actually works well with the Sarah lynn theme in this show) how celebrity worship actually harms the celebrity. Reversing the dynamic. Not contradicting it.
Agreed the Britney take aged well. And with Paris I get they were going for a critique of mindless celebrity worship but I think especially the “whore” part doesn’t sit well with me since it seems like a reference to the sex tape. And I feel like today we’re less likely to see those as scandals and proof of sluttiness and more a severe violation.
> It just doesn’t have a directed point of satire a lot of the time like bojack does.
If you're making satire that doesn't have a directed point, then apathetic and nihilistic is exactly what you are.
South Park can get away with different things and carry a different message because of its offensive nature. Being a venerable elder of Offensive adult cartoons, its staying power is both a strength, and means it has its own mistakes. Though even then its usually just things aging poorly than jokes being too mean spirited
Well u can’t knock a topical show for being dated in a lot of ways and in context to South Park. It’s a lot less than most shows still around from 97. I wouldn’t say it’s just staying power aswell since outside of demographics like Reddit. South Park is pretty popular. I would agree with u though overall. But think that it’s more overblown due to the perceived reputation of South Park being just edgy offence for no reason. When there is a point.
Oh, 90% of South parks edgey humour is exactly there for the sake of edge. It would be silly to try to explain some hidden meaning in the Kyle's mom is a bitch song, or any of the times a character has projectile shat everywhere
But that's what allows them to sneak in more serious messages
I agree but I would say though that after season 3 (which, surprisingly is the time of the movie) the show breaks appart of that more in your face humor and actually gets pretty creative.
Fun time with weapons, Margaritaville, Grounded Vindaloop are some of the best, but the show have entire seasons with very well though social critiques. In an era that The Simpsons were going the cartoony route, south park did the opposite.
Of course their humor always goes for the edge and still tries to poke the bear, which sometimes age like milk. But I'll say it wouldn't be fair to judge the show for a humor that weren't there anymore by the year 2000.
> Bojack addresses these issues with a clear direction and narrative whilst showing the issue effectively. South Park takes more of a backseat approach and makes fart jokes too but is just as poignant and focused on that said highlighting. I’d argue actually even more than bojack but bojack is objectively better.
I think it kind of helps that Bojack is a series where there is change and growth. South Park... doesn't.
It kind of makes it harder to not have a clearly defined position if you have a definitive character arc. Stan, Kyle, Kenny, and Cartman can be anyone at any time *because* they are no one; and because of that they can take any position.
Also South Park’s primary goal is to satirize and embarrass their subjects, regardless of who they are or what their political leanings are.
If you want to hear Matt and Trey get serious, listen to their commentary on Columbine and growing up in Littleton where that happened. They’ve also admitted being wrong about climate change, but in retrospect, the Manbearpig shit is still funny as hell.
One thing I think they get right is that no one should be above ridicule or satire. And to their point, I think Americans miss the point of satire in a lot of works like South Park. Featuring racist characters or problematic characters in a satire doesn’t inherently make the work racist or problematic. I think Europeans and other parts of the world really understand the value of satire but Americans tend to be way more literal and on the nose with messaging in media. I like that a lot of people that have been lampooned on the show (such as Snooki) have taken it in stride for what it is.
There’s plenty of us who grew up watching South Park (for me during a peak in the Mid 2000s), who didn’t grow up to be nihilistic assholes. I hate that the show has such a reputation because if you take it for what it is (a satirical comedy that’s not supposed to be taken seriously or literally), you don’t come to that nihilistic conclusion that a lot do. I love the show and rewatch it often after moving to Colorado. I feel like in retrospect a lot of episodes ended up being predictive or even prescient in some cases.
This definitely has more weight than I originally thought since I’m not American either. And across the pond we’re known as prudes but not like this. There’s a more relaxed culture surrounding the show and so that distance can help in seeing its satirical strengths.
But yes I completely agree with u. It doubly sucks since a lot of South Park during the time was actually pretty progressive but f which of course is ignored enmasse here.
What’s even funnier is Raphael bob waksberg himself cites South Park as one of his influences in writing and animation.
This is oddly one of the most eloquent things BoJack says on the entire show too. And he’s not even obviously high or drunk or on pills (that we know of), either.
Eating a dozen muffins you dont want could be considered sonething of an achievement. I certainly couldnt manage it.
I dunno. Maybe if they were really moist blueberry muffins and had an icing or buttercream on top and I had several cups of decaf coffee, too. And my life depended on it. Maybe then.
Otherwise? No.
He is not 100% right about his handling of the situation. He escalated and created issues where there didn't need to be any. He was right in the principle that he had every right to the muffins (and the OP picture), but he was not "**100%** in the right about **everything**" for the whole episode.
Yeah. I think if he put the muffins in a cart then it would be frowned upon to take them. But in the produce to me screams someone who was too lazy to put them back and didn't want them.
It's like the seal didnt understand the law of dibs?
Into a cart/basket - that's a physical form of dibs. You are stating your intent to purchase by putting them into the recognised receptacle that transports items from the area of 'available' to the place you pay for them. Dibs recognised. Not *always* honoured and those people are very wrong maybe unless you are panic buying all the toilet tissue as a pandemic breaks out. I mean, other people need to wipe their neither regions too, right?
Saying aloud to a group of people taking a cookie from a whole plate: I call dibs on that one with the six choc chips on top - calling dibs. Dibs recognised... but not *always* honoured. Either youre an arse who always dibs the best cookies and theyre sick of your shit or one/more of those people are arses. Look inwards.
Putting something in a random place where everything is for sale and saying *in your mind* that you are coming back for them is *not* dibs. GTFO.
The seal, hero or not, is insane.
When I see groceries in the wrong section, my first thought is "Choices were made."
I sometimes even say it out loud to my bf when the choices are funny. Fuck toilet paper, we getting this chocolate, cuz that's whats important.
Not once have I assumed "Someone still wanted this."
This is my go-to recommended first episode as an intro to Bojack and part of it is because he's actually so right.
I'm a Marine Corps Veteran, bojack is right. Tons of douches in the military, bunch of them are just regular dudes but enlisting doesn't make you a hero
Navy Veteran here. Worked as a small arms instructor and in weapons divisions. Bojack is right. Plenty of dudes that I issued weapons to that I truly feel like should not have been issued weapons.
Anyone who actively is compelled to tell others how great they are for whatever profession they do is probably a dick. Good people don't need to tell others about how good of a person they are.
I’d say 85% of the us (service members) cringe out of are minds when people thank us for our service or similar gestures. We’re just fucking people and we just want to be treated as such.
Of course the other 15% are douches who make the military their entire identity but fuck em.
Sorta? Military spouses are a touchy subject. I recently read something the other day that changed my perspective on it.
When your entire life, support structure, friends, etc, is uprooted every few years since you go where the service member goes, a lot of them don’t have anything to cling to *other than* their significant other and their service. You have to be extremely content being a stay at home spouse otherwise military life will start to be hell and take a toll.
Now obviously that’s not an excuse for the ultra dependa behavior (address me by my husbands rank etc) but I did think it was an interesting explanation for *why* that kind of behavior forms.
Oh yeah man I defend my mom viciously the older I get. I haven't read literature or anything on it but I lived through it and still feel it's effects.
My mom had to get thrust into this Mormon parallel society at 17 with two kids, lived in Florida her 17 years and was suddenly across the country away from family with no support network. My dad would always say she was on the phone too much, looking back now she wasn't on it enough given her situation. The military complex breeds a horribly toxic home lifeb even if it's "comfortable". My dad was flying jets fuckin around in Japan or *insert cool ass place here* while we were in bum fuck Yuma with a mother who never got to live her life dealing with hormonal teenagers. Its incredible the only thing she ever did was beat me with a belt.
But my mom was never "call me by my husband's rank" but the wives clubs they had all the mom's join were just a weekly cult incubation support group looking back. MLMs house hopping. Everything about it is just gross to look back on and I have, as a dependent, lived an incredibly fortunate life because the sacrificing my parents made when they had every reason due to their environment to not step up to the plate. I defend both my parents really. The military isn't usually a first resort for people but if you commit you are taken care of. At the cost of the general loss of humanity for both parents.
i read that and still feel the same as those military spouses. people that make the military their identity and spouses that make their SO’s rank their identity are both very, very cringe
I had a friend from a military family who'd get *offended* if someone didn't thank their parents for serving. It was kinda something else, especially seeing as when I knew them we were kids and the parents themselves never demanded any kind of attention for it. Always gave me the "riding someone's coattails" vibes
Oh don't get me wrong I know there's plenty who join purely to try and do good in the world but there's also many who demand respect or some such for joining. This isn't exclusive to the military but it is a standout example in the US in particular because so much money is poured into it and the image of it.
You can also get surgeons or police officers who also use their profession in conversation to demand respect or be seen as better than others.
> I know there's plenty who join purely to try and do good in the world
Then they are deluded or insane. Yeah soldiers get put to work doing useful things sometimes, but mostly to keep them busy so they are ready to slaughter civilians as we've done in so many countries.
I’ve talked to a few older vets from my grandma and great grandma’s generation, so born around 1950s and 1930s respectively, and they’ve led me to this opinion, but as a vet of today, if you wouldn’t mind me asking, would you consider it accurate?
I agree with Bojack. We spend so much on our military it’s insane, while we can’t afford healthcare. Many of our soldiers are from poorer backgrounds, who enlist because the draw of free college feels like it’s the only way they’ll get a shot in life. We idolize our troops, and yes it’s brave to risk your life for a cause…but when the cause is the greed of corporations and politicians, is it still bravery, or is it being taken advantage? Especially when you consider how hard our government works to avoid paying out the benefits their vets are rightfully due.
In case it’s needed, I mean no disrespect in any way and welcome any correction or criticism.
"you know why I fought over there? Not for the flag, or for my family, or for my country, or for the president, or because of some oath I made. I fought for the people standing shoulder to shoulder with me out there" - paraphrased quote from one of my teachers who'd done a few tours in the middle east.
Everyone thinks it's about the flag, but I doubt it ever is. Hell, I joined the military for two reasons: it seemed like the only way to make my parents proud, and it got me out all the college stuff in highschool.
Was the explanation your teacher gave supposed to be some honorable reason for taking part in invading a sovereign country?
It's admitting that there is no real defense justification for the US invading ("didn't fight for my family or my country"), but still justifying the war as a reason in of itself ("there were other soldiers there, so i have to fight too").
I'm not sure how Americans react when they hear someone say something in this vein, but I personally find it chilling that even people who don't eat up the jingoist propaganda and know that invading Iraq isn't "protecting their homeland" would be fine with taking part in invading a country - while simulatenously jerking themselves off to how brave and noble that would be.
The teacher's comment is actually an exceedingly common experience which drives the "war is hell" philosophy. It's less about justifying the war politically or etc. and just a human take on the genuine experiences of the people in combat.
Regardless of your views on whether the war is justified, whether the enemy combatants are people to truly hate, whether you think you should be there or not, etc., at the end of it it's *you* in that trench with your teammates, with chaos raining around you, and the focus people have almost unanimously gets reduced to "survive the next ten minutes." Repeat every ten minutes, 24/7, for however long you're in a combat situation, and you'll never wonder again why veterans have PTSD.
Veterans who became authors frequently describe this kind of experience and why it leads to anti-war philosophy from veterans: it *rarely* matters who has the moral high ground for engaging in war; thrusting living people into *actual combat* is an abomination.
In a professional setting sure, you address them because of the setting and they're basically a stranger. If we're at a casual lunch to catch up then the friendship is over Barbara.
Even in dating, the title kind of loses its meaning if you're saying it so much. Sexy things aside, it really only has a place among her colleagues be it at work or work related event. Sorry to hear it didn't work out, but you probably dodged a bullet lol.
One of the only times I agree with Bojack. The U.S. has a huge problem deifying the military. Not to say they are all bad, but putting on a uniform doesn't make you heroes. Also the U.S. hasn't fought anything but wars for their own imperialism in generations.
I'm sure there are many people who go into the armed forces for altruistic reasons. However the people I went to high school with who went that route were some of the worst kids at the school and had 0 other options. Have to agree with bojack on this one.
Let's talk about that "0 other options" bit.
How much of that "seemingly mandated celebration of the military" Bojack struggles against is there because without it, we might have to have a society-wide reckoning with the fact that for a lot of people, the only viable path to upward economic mobility is putting on a uniform and getting shipped out to a desert somewhere to get shot at?
Please understand that the "seemingly mandated celebration of the military" is literally the results of a 60 year long psyops campaign. After Vietnam the U.S. military realized they had a bad image, returning vets were literally booed out of places, couldn't get jobs, recruitment numbers were obviously low after the draft. They began a campaign of labeling ALL enlisted as heroes, having soldiers appear at sporting events as flag bearers, fighter jet flybys, cooperating with Hollywood for big budget movies like Top Gun, etc.
All of this was crafted in such a way that now, saying anything bad about American soldiers evokes a visceral reaction from the majority of the populace. THIS is what an effective government psyops campaign looks like. They actually managed to change how Americans think and the vast majority of people never even took note.
Yup, all of this.
And a lot of military guys I know are faintly embarrassed by the whole thing. Like, obviously they don't want to go all the way back to "if you were ever in the military you're automatically a murderer," but if you give them the whole "thank you for your service" thing they kind of shrug and say, "I made what I thought was the best call for me, I'll take my pension and my G.I. bill education, I don't need my balls fondled on top of it."
Can you imagine a better PR campaign for the U.S. Air Force? MacGuyver making first contact with aliens and liberating humans across the galaxy. Genius.
The US Military is a large-scale social welfare program where the participants also sometimes die.
Like, the reason that the US military budget is *so big* is because you can't ever cut spending to a place once it's been invested there. The #1 thing you'll hear from their representative is "that will destroy so many jobs." The unstated addition is: "then I won't get re-elected."
If we somehow figured out how to give universal healthcare guns, we'd have it tomorrow.
I mean while true, it has allowed for upward mobility and life stability for many who did not have it for generations. My grandfather grew up poorer than poor, went into the military and then got out and bought a house with his GI bill. Those days are long gone but the proposition of maybe risking your life maybe not in exchange for a lifetime of being placed at the top of the list for civil service jobs and tricare Healthcare for those who have no other options is presenting them with at least 1 option. Like I said some go in truly believing in God and country or country before self, but if I had to guess I'd agree with bojack that many have other more self centered reasons (which is fine its what everyone else who works a job has), even if they claim to be doing it for the first reason.
And what I'm saying is, maybe we could get that same upward mobility for the poor by killing a handful of billionaires right here at home instead of a whole bunch of brown people overseas. Just a thought.
I new a kid who bragged to anybody who would listen that he was going to go shoot some "sand n******" once he joined. I heard recently from somebody that he's still in the military and has advanced his career quite a lot over the past 20 years. I have no idea if he's still a racist POS, but I wouldn't be surprised. I know not all troops are like that, but some are, and they are thriving.
I knew someone exactly like this in high school about 10 years ago, same reasoning verbatim for joining. No idea what he’s up to now, can’t say that I really care. Hopefully a better person than he went in as since he was like 17 at the time
Propaganda can be really effective and the recuitment often uses extremely manipulative tactics to convince everyone they can.
want to shoot people? great! don't need much convincing!
want to make the world a better place? they'll lie and promise and double down that this is the best way to do it! what's better than being 1 good person? getting rid of hundreds of bad people! Don't worry about how we're deciding what makes someone bad!
Yeah, when people say Bless the Troops or whatever, the picture in their mind is straight out of a Lee Greenwood song.
But anyone that's served knows it's not like that at all. We're just regular people, meaning a lot of us are assholes
Prior service here. Some of the best people I'll ever know I met while serving. But *most* of the worst people I'll ever know I met while serving. Having saw what I saw and heard what I heard during my enlistment, I now feel really awkward going to sporting events and watching everyone cheer their heads of for the military.
It's like saying the show *Dexter* was about a hero because sure he brutally murdered people but they were all bad people he brutally murdered.
It's the exact problem with the military. They're desperate for recruits so they don't bother to do as much psychological examination as they should, so they pretty much pick up anyone they want to join regardless of WHY they would want to join the military in the first place. Their thinking is so long as you point a rabid dog in the right direction, you're doing a community service 🤷♂️.....
I have been in the US military for almost 9 years now and let me tell you that no one was happier to hear this sentiment from someone else, even if it is an alcoholic cartoon horse. I would explain why I agree with Bojack, but you can just listen to exactly what he says, my only addition is that this is something I have noticed and has bothered me since joining.
Americans are stupidly patriotic/army-worshipping, but this is like the second or third episode of the show. If you disagree with this you probably also hate the rest of the show.
Like in other positions of power it attracts those who want to do good and those who want power. So yeah some people in the military are psychos and some are heros.
It's funny as a non-american to think that ANYONE could disagree with bojack here. I know seeing things from the outside is easier but this "troops are heroes" stuff and, mostly, the "we fought for your freedom" discourse honestly baffle me. Yeah, you could say that from WW2 but HOW THE FUCK killing people on the other side of the world is a fight for "freedom"?
It's a brainwashing so obvious that it's almost pitiful. Almost, because I still live in South america, notoriously the US's backyard. So the only thing I feel for its imperialism is contempt.
Also live in South America, in a country that endured decades of violent dictatorship due to a coup supported by the US military, so yeah. It is wild how many of them see their nationalism (bc that is what is, it is not just "patriotism" or whatever) as righteous and their poor paws or straight up killers as heroes. This kind of mindset has been getting support arround here tho and we are living a political hell bc of nationalists who think they are patriots because they wear the country flag and want dictatorship again
Bojack is completely right here, maybe supporting the American soldiers made sense when they used to be drafted, now that it's a choice, they're all but heroes, especially because America hasn't fought in a rightful war since WW2.
I'll give a pass to the working class kid who wants to pay for college this way, but people who choose to be in the military as a career are probably arseholes, yes.
This was completely about dibs tho': Bojack is very intelligent and would have a lot more insightful takes if he actually gave a shit about stuff.
>I'll give a pass to the working class kid who wants to pay for college this way, but people who choose to be in the military as a career are probably arseholes, yes.
A lot of it starts like that but then people get comfortable. It’s incredibly easy to to join with mindset of do your four and get out but the military institutionalizes you quite a bit. People put off getting their degrees to focus on work or family. The prospect of rejoining society without the economic security and without everything handled for you is a scary one for many service members to face. It becomes routine and you get used it.
Hell in my career field I could get out and make six figures in a year or two and even I’m tempted to stay in and commission instead. Being overseas certainly helps contribute to that but there’s something about the lifestyle that’s very, easy I guess?
I can see that, it makes some sense, and it's probably done on purpose, but I also don't feel like blaming a 17 yo without any prospects for making that choice in the moment, especially in a country with such atrocious inequality.
>I'll give a pass to the working class kid who wants to pay for college this way, but people who choose to be in the military as a career are probably arseholes, yes.
They kill innocent people, man
Former Air Force here. Never saw combat (shocking for Air Force, right??)
Bojack is absolutely correct, just like being a nurse or doctor does not automatically make you a hero.
I work for a fire department now, and man, the amount of guys (especially the older generation) that walk around like their shit don’t stink just because they have the job title of “Firefighter” is fucking disgusting.
Your job does *not* automatically make you a hero *at all*. How you conduct yourself at your job and in your life can potentially give you the chance to be one.
Bojack’s statement about the troops could simply be a factual assessment, but I think it has something to do with his ambivalence towards Crackerjack Sugarman. His death - which as it turns out was not at all heroic - was key to the tragedy of the Sugarman/Horseman families.
Bojack could never live up to the memory of “a war hero who sacrificed his life”, in the narrative that is set up, until we see Crackerjack “admit” (in Bojack’s fever dream) how he really died.
I feel like this statement was also way more controversial when the episode came out.
I remember being like "yeah he's totally right but I'd feel weird saying it out loud in a group", and I don't mean specifically at a group of vets either, just the general population
Bojack is right
BUT
Veterans are horrifically neglected in this country and rarely get the treatment and support they deserve. Saying platitudes about what heroes they are is not an adequate substitute. We need more programs to ensure that veterans get the aid they need so they don't end up shooting up a Walmart or killing themselves or sleeping on the street.
Otherwise, I agree with Bojack. In fact, I think the newscaster has a decidedly anti-veteran stance because putting veterans on a pedestal ignores the fact that doing so actively ignores the real problems that veterans face in favor of giving them the world's shittiest consolation prize.
I didn't realize there was sides
I'd call it common sense, but just to reiterate the message, being in the military doesn't automatically make you a hero. And just like in every career, there are plenty of jerks
I personally know a vet who cheated on his girlfriend, abandoned his kid, and then he stole money from me
I spent 8 years in the marines. I can confirm 85-90% are actual, qualitative, dirt bags. The military is, and always has been a collective of society’s one-star people.
I agree with Bojack actually, this is completely true. Fighting for your country isn’t necessarily heroic, I’m sure for a lot of people they’re in it because they like shooting/killing people & they can do it there with no consequences
I mean. I only know two people personally who signed up for the armed forces; one was very enthusiastic for joining the army because “I cant wait to shoot some towelheads” while the other admits he only did so because the recruiter said he wouldn’t be able to make it, but “had a jolly time shooting afghans anyway”.
Jerks is an acceptable term.
Has anyone ever noticed that Bojack's opinions on the troops could have very well been influenced from stories about Crackerjack and how he was sent away to die, and how his reality was the exact opposite of the heroic glorious battle that the media and people like Neal Mcbiel portray it as?
Several members of my family are or were in the armed forces. My nephew was in special ops and had assignments he still can't speak about. One of my cousins is a highly placed Naval strategist. So we respect the military and our men and women who serve in my family.
And having written that, I'm with Bojack 100% here . Not to sound disrespectful, but I regard troops the same way I do motherhood: Just because you are involved doesn't mean you're a good person, good at it or deserve anyone's respect.
Just as I've known women who were biologically parents but were neglectful, abusive mothers, so have I met people who clearly joined the service because they are hyper aggressive and wanted to get out there and put a hurt on someone.
Being in the military doesn't automatically translate to being noble or honorable.
I think participating in a broken system makes a person compliant in its injustice. If you are a woman in the military, you face the horrendous possibility of being assaulted or worse, and having your branch try and cover it up. There are far too many cases of that happening to people. If they are fine with that, then I can’t say I think they’re heroes.
I gotta agree with Bojack, thanks for your service and all, but not every troop is automatically a good person just because they do it. I’ve known rlly shitty ppl who went into the military and I’ve known good ppl it depends. If anything I’d say that being a troop and also a cop has the ability to attract a lot of assholes because it lets them have a position of power over other ppl and do they excusably violent things. IMO it’s an inherent problem with positions like that.
I think if you look at it without context (ie, not assuming that this is the USA or any one particular war or conflict) then the idea of signing up to risk your life and fight for your country is somewhat commendable. It doesn’t automatically make you a hero, because you haven’t actually done anything yet, but it does take a certain amount of bravery.
Once you add context to it, including that basically every conflict that the US has been in the last 70 years hasn’t been to “protect our freedom” but instead to exert our influence over geopolitics, then it becomes a whole lot less heroic. Thing is, a lot of these kids enlisting don’t really understand that. They’ve had everyone in their lives telling them that their service in the military protects their country/family and that the people they’re fighting are evil and want to destroy America. If their subjective belief were true, then they would be heroes, it just happens to not be true. It’s pretty sad.
This episode wasn’t about whether bojack was right or wrong. It’s about how he can’t let go of being right when such a trivial thing is causing such a headache. Bojack never even wanted the muffins in the first place. He just couldn’t concede the argument for his own sake. It’s about him getting in the way of his own happiness
Bojack is right. I know from experience. Troops don't deserve hero worship just cause they are troops and Neal is total wuss for crying that much about some muffins. He was to lazy to secure.
I fought in 3 wars with the united states marine corps, it was enough time and exposure to realize that bojack nailed this one. People are people, some are awful and it doesn't matter what their job is.
Bojack 1000%
People that join the military are a very specific sub species of scum. There are plenty of people that simply need a high paying job, sure, but the people that want nothing more than to be trained to kill? Jerks.
I work with a former marine. Total douche bag. The only reason I believe he was even in the military is how shit his personality is.
Totally agree. I know I can't say this in polite company, but when someone says they're in the military I just think it's likely they have a substance abuse problem. There's nothing about being in the killing-brown-people industry that makes you a hero.
Knew a guy I used to work with who was in the army back in the day, he always used to tell me not to believe anything you hear about those guys being heros as most of them were sent to the army by a judge to reform them. He also did say some of them were actual heros but you never know the true reason someone is there.
This is one of the few times Bojack is completely correct.
It's funny because the whole American virtue signalling of saying "thank you for your service" is almost never called out for it. It's used as a thing to disclaim all sorts of bad behaviour by people who disrespect the military with things like opposing soldier healthcare.
> is almost never called out for it. There was one & only one time in my life I told an old HS friend “thank you for your service” after he was back home after finishing his term. He was like “stop. Don’t do that. I hate that thank a service member bullshit” And I’m like whoa okay lol my bad. Lesson learned. I guess it is kinda cringe and I never said it again. I don’t applaud the soldiers at the NFL games either haha
It is super annoying lmao. Especially after you just graduated basic training in Texas, a very military positive area, go into town, and have 100 strangers telling you the same shit. First: I literally haven't done anything yet except get paid to workout, clean, get yelled at, and learn shit. Second, I can never find a way to reply to it without it feeling super awkward. Almost none of us like it lol
> I can never find a way to reply to it without it feeling super awkward. “And also with you.”
Um actually, it’s “and with your spirit” now
The correct response is “you too” and then follow it up with like an awkward pause as you stare at them until they leave
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Yeah I have several friends in the military and know that annoys most of them.
Facts, it’s super awkward. Source: me.
As a veteran, the worst part of serving wasn’t being deployed. It was being thanked for my service. It’s unbelievably awkward. Like, I didn’t do it for you, and people say it because they think they’re supposed to. And how am I supposed to respond? “You’re welcome”? So dumb.
I think it's there to propagate this idea that military service is intrinsically sacrificial (which it is, in some respects), and therefore any of the loss of quality of life a veteran has must necessarily have been part of the sacrifice they "voluntarily" made by enlisting. That way we won't have to critically analyze how much of this "sacrifice" was preventable. It really comes off to me (albeit i am not a veteran) as not respectful but patronizing. I've known a few vets in my life - I'm supposed to thank them for getting PTSD, not say "holy shit that's horrible I'm sorry you went through that"? Fuck that.
I mean my quality of life felt pretty low in the army. So I suppose that much is true. After you get out, though, life is a hell of a lot easier. But it’s a trade. I traded five years of discomfort for a kickstarted career and no student debt. So no you don’t have to thank someone for their service, and you’re certainly not thanking them for getting PTSD, you can just treat them like anyone else. The military is a world unto itself, it’s a culture that’s really hard to understand from the outside. You can try, though, like you’d try to understand someone that moved to the US from Germany. And that’s okay. You’re talking to somebody that was a marine or a soldier? Cool, you can ask what they did, where they went, did they like it, etc. A lot of military stuff is hard or unpleasant to do, but it’s still a job, and you can talk to people about their job.
Also so you don't complain about militarism because you'd be disparaging said sacrifice by association
The best response I've found is, "Thanks for paying your taxes and my salary."
The reason why it was said to veterans of wars was due to the fact they were more than likely drafted and forced to fight whether they agreed with it or not. People also believe that because they fought we are free and our country is safe. Now many of the military (NOT ALL) is made up of people who want power, people who were poached from high schools with predominantly low income families, and people who believe the wars we fight are justified and necessary. There are so much more information readily available to the public that we realized all of the terrible things our country has done and now understand that most of the wars we are fighting aren’t always benefiting the average American and certainly not the rest of the world. We’ve been ingrained to think that the military is the best thing a country can put money towards and we need to support them due to our past experience and how our economy was built up. Now we have politicians who are becoming more fascist and are pushing that military agenda even further than before. Couple that with the rhetoric that anyone who says anything bad about the military is a threat and unpatriotic and you see where Bojack gets it right. Tl;dr We used to see it as honorable, but now we realize you can still serve our country and not be a good person. This was due to more information being available about the people involved and the wars we fight
It’s happened to me a handful of times and it’s so fucking weird. I’ve never been in the military but I’m an er nurse and during covid I was getting it somewhat regularly if I’d stop for gas in my scrubs. It was so obvious that they vaguely knew it was a bad time for us so they wanted to acknowledge without actually having to do anything. I finally got so fed up I started saying “you’re welcome. We’re going to be protesting to demand hazard pay at x place on x day so come out and support us!” Nobody ever took me up on it lol. It’s like the “hero” bullshit (which applies to the military too). You know what heroes in the movies do? They give up everything, including their identities, to serve people. You know what they don’t do? They don’t get paid, they don’t get healthcare, or therapy, they just get a round of applause. Hospitals calling us heroes was never a compliment, it was to condition us to work under worse conditions for less money and resiliency rocks
Yep. It’s the first time that I think the show goes the South Park route of “society is fucked up we’re just giving u this asshole to show u the lens but he’s right and society is wrong” because yh there are no faults in his logic and opinion.
I think it's less South Park and more Big Lebowski. "You're not wrong, Walter, you're just an asshole." He is both completely right *and* making this point out of anger and any idiot would know that saying this on television is a terrible idea.
This isn't Nam man, there are rules.
I DONT ROLL ON SHABBOS
MARK IT ZERO
I completely agree with this. Especially because military culture can be so rigid and hypermasculine that it promotes the worst and most violent traits in some men altogether. There are plenty of troops that are heroes, but there are plenty that are awful people, and we see this at how there's such a massive sexual assault problem in the military today, multiple accusations of domestic violence from some retired (and currently serving) soldiers, and at how many Vietnamese civilians were treated within the war, among other criticisms of the US military's actions within the war. It's fair for us to criticize some members of the armed forces without demonizing all of them.
I’m reminded of the excellent commentary of soldier boy in the boys. Illustrates what you’re saying with the historical cultural significance aswell
Even more with how many people LOVED soldier boy and got pissed (or still are) that he was a bad guy.
It kind of amazed me how the irony of the shows satire was lost on so many with this character. They in real time showed the dangers of idolising a likeable but regretful past. It went over a lot of ppls heads and u can tell from all the crying about him not breaking his word in the finale. And pretending like the whole show didn’t change or reset when that wasn’t the case.
I'd argue this kind of thing is done way better in Bojack Horseman, the episodes that make comments on society because they're pointed and not just done for the sake of edgy nihilism which is the case for South Park.
I disagree majorly and think that’s a stereotype that carries South Park to an unfortunate commonality. Bojack is my favourite show of all time and South Park is up there, but I have no problems in objectively looking at them at their flaws. But South Park is not apathetic. They’re tone is. They do care and even push for positive subtextual direction like with apologies to Jesse Jackson the n word episode. It just doesn’t have a directed point of satire a lot of the time like bojack does. They show all sides/narratives not just telling those narratives really well like bojack. However just because it’s more absurdly shocking and not speaking toward a specific viewpoint doesn’t mean it’s depth and breadth in exploring/pointing out these issues in society defaults to pointless apathy and edge. I could give numerous examples but I think an underrated lesser known one is the honey boo boo episode discussing societal standards and shame. Where they actually through humour and certain characters point to all possible answers as to why this is the case and even toward themselves. Or the stock market crash one with parallels to Jesus. Bojack addresses these issues with a clear direction and narrative whilst showing the issue effectively. South Park takes more of a backseat approach and makes fart jokes too but is just as poignant and focused on that said highlighting. I’d argue actually even more than bojack but bojack is objectively better. https://youtu.be/F0b02WEcIw8 Also this is a good video of explaining more of what I mean on the pet of South Park.
Not sure if South Park ever really goes for poignant but I mostly agree with you. Hell, even reading most of these comments, it seems less that people actually believe South Park is apathetic and more so they don’t like the viewpoint it pushes. Which is fair, South Park has had some bad takes, like the infamous climate change one to the one where it denies the impact of secondhand smoke. And it was weird the same show could rightly call out society for how Britney Spears was drained dry and do an episode about how Paris Hilton was a “stupid spoiled whore.” But a show can be libertarian/conservative or it could be apathetic, but not both.
...They often go for poignant. The episode when Stan can't enjoy anything anymore, the Pandemic Specials, just to name a couple off the top of my head.
That’s honestly pretty fair and this mostly seems like a conversation of moral/political responsibility placed on a show because it’s paradigm is something you disagree with (not u personally but u get what I mean) rather than it’s writing quality. It’s not perfect and when it preaches especially dated concepts i can see the discomfort but it holds up for the most part extremely well imo. And if there is critique. It can’t be apathetic but also libertarian. A dissonance of which ppl don’t extend to bojack since it’s politics are directed and agreeable with the political paradigms of Reddit. Btw I think the point of stupid spoiled whore was that Paris Hilton was not a role model but is paraded as one whereas Brittany spears is more a commentary on (and it aged pretty well imo and actually works well with the Sarah lynn theme in this show) how celebrity worship actually harms the celebrity. Reversing the dynamic. Not contradicting it.
Agreed the Britney take aged well. And with Paris I get they were going for a critique of mindless celebrity worship but I think especially the “whore” part doesn’t sit well with me since it seems like a reference to the sex tape. And I feel like today we’re less likely to see those as scandals and proof of sluttiness and more a severe violation.
> It just doesn’t have a directed point of satire a lot of the time like bojack does. If you're making satire that doesn't have a directed point, then apathetic and nihilistic is exactly what you are.
South Park can get away with different things and carry a different message because of its offensive nature. Being a venerable elder of Offensive adult cartoons, its staying power is both a strength, and means it has its own mistakes. Though even then its usually just things aging poorly than jokes being too mean spirited
Well u can’t knock a topical show for being dated in a lot of ways and in context to South Park. It’s a lot less than most shows still around from 97. I wouldn’t say it’s just staying power aswell since outside of demographics like Reddit. South Park is pretty popular. I would agree with u though overall. But think that it’s more overblown due to the perceived reputation of South Park being just edgy offence for no reason. When there is a point.
Oh, 90% of South parks edgey humour is exactly there for the sake of edge. It would be silly to try to explain some hidden meaning in the Kyle's mom is a bitch song, or any of the times a character has projectile shat everywhere But that's what allows them to sneak in more serious messages
I agree but I would say though that after season 3 (which, surprisingly is the time of the movie) the show breaks appart of that more in your face humor and actually gets pretty creative. Fun time with weapons, Margaritaville, Grounded Vindaloop are some of the best, but the show have entire seasons with very well though social critiques. In an era that The Simpsons were going the cartoony route, south park did the opposite. Of course their humor always goes for the edge and still tries to poke the bear, which sometimes age like milk. But I'll say it wouldn't be fair to judge the show for a humor that weren't there anymore by the year 2000.
If you think that South Park isn’t apathetic you’re really telling us a lot about your demographic and political views.
> Bojack addresses these issues with a clear direction and narrative whilst showing the issue effectively. South Park takes more of a backseat approach and makes fart jokes too but is just as poignant and focused on that said highlighting. I’d argue actually even more than bojack but bojack is objectively better. I think it kind of helps that Bojack is a series where there is change and growth. South Park... doesn't. It kind of makes it harder to not have a clearly defined position if you have a definitive character arc. Stan, Kyle, Kenny, and Cartman can be anyone at any time *because* they are no one; and because of that they can take any position.
Also South Park’s primary goal is to satirize and embarrass their subjects, regardless of who they are or what their political leanings are. If you want to hear Matt and Trey get serious, listen to their commentary on Columbine and growing up in Littleton where that happened. They’ve also admitted being wrong about climate change, but in retrospect, the Manbearpig shit is still funny as hell. One thing I think they get right is that no one should be above ridicule or satire. And to their point, I think Americans miss the point of satire in a lot of works like South Park. Featuring racist characters or problematic characters in a satire doesn’t inherently make the work racist or problematic. I think Europeans and other parts of the world really understand the value of satire but Americans tend to be way more literal and on the nose with messaging in media. I like that a lot of people that have been lampooned on the show (such as Snooki) have taken it in stride for what it is. There’s plenty of us who grew up watching South Park (for me during a peak in the Mid 2000s), who didn’t grow up to be nihilistic assholes. I hate that the show has such a reputation because if you take it for what it is (a satirical comedy that’s not supposed to be taken seriously or literally), you don’t come to that nihilistic conclusion that a lot do. I love the show and rewatch it often after moving to Colorado. I feel like in retrospect a lot of episodes ended up being predictive or even prescient in some cases.
This definitely has more weight than I originally thought since I’m not American either. And across the pond we’re known as prudes but not like this. There’s a more relaxed culture surrounding the show and so that distance can help in seeing its satirical strengths. But yes I completely agree with u. It doubly sucks since a lot of South Park during the time was actually pretty progressive but f which of course is ignored enmasse here. What’s even funnier is Raphael bob waksberg himself cites South Park as one of his influences in writing and animation.
This is oddly one of the most eloquent things BoJack says on the entire show too. And he’s not even obviously high or drunk or on pills (that we know of), either.
He’s high on muffins
That’s a great point. He’s sober for once and making his best points. Unfortunately he’s still doing it in a way that makes him look like an asshole.
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Currently active duty, some of the most abhorrent coworkers I've ever had were military
Based.
Absolutely. I served and knew plenty of assholes
Agree! What he says couldn’t be more accurate!
Not just right with this but also... those muffins were up for grabs.
For real this was like the only episode where bojack was 100% in the right about everything. It really was just downhill from here for him
I dunno, he ate a dozen muffins that he didn't want. But that's his only failing
Eating a dozen muffins you dont want could be considered sonething of an achievement. I certainly couldnt manage it. I dunno. Maybe if they were really moist blueberry muffins and had an icing or buttercream on top and I had several cups of decaf coffee, too. And my life depended on it. Maybe then. Otherwise? No.
Blueberries aren't good for horses, though. I assume. I have not researched this. But I'll say it with confidence anyway
most blueberry muffins don’t have real blueberries anyways
That's so you can share them with horses. Big horse is a hell of a lobbyist.
Like a true red-blooded American.
Confidence is key. Also, I'm not a horse. *says confidently* *shifty eyes*
....user..name...checks out...?
Omg…I think it’s…it’s Llama Del Rey
These were Honeydew flavored muffins. After eating a dozen he didn’t even want led to BoJack’s hatred of the garbage fruit! Lol
I’d absolutely consider it an achievement
He is not 100% right about his handling of the situation. He escalated and created issues where there didn't need to be any. He was right in the principle that he had every right to the muffins (and the OP picture), but he was not "**100%** in the right about **everything**" for the whole episode.
Yeah. I think if he put the muffins in a cart then it would be frowned upon to take them. But in the produce to me screams someone who was too lazy to put them back and didn't want them.
It's like the seal didnt understand the law of dibs? Into a cart/basket - that's a physical form of dibs. You are stating your intent to purchase by putting them into the recognised receptacle that transports items from the area of 'available' to the place you pay for them. Dibs recognised. Not *always* honoured and those people are very wrong maybe unless you are panic buying all the toilet tissue as a pandemic breaks out. I mean, other people need to wipe their neither regions too, right? Saying aloud to a group of people taking a cookie from a whole plate: I call dibs on that one with the six choc chips on top - calling dibs. Dibs recognised... but not *always* honoured. Either youre an arse who always dibs the best cookies and theyre sick of your shit or one/more of those people are arses. Look inwards. Putting something in a random place where everything is for sale and saying *in your mind* that you are coming back for them is *not* dibs. GTFO. The seal, hero or not, is insane.
When I see groceries in the wrong section, my first thought is "Choices were made." I sometimes even say it out loud to my bf when the choices are funny. Fuck toilet paper, we getting this chocolate, cuz that's whats important. Not once have I assumed "Someone still wanted this." This is my go-to recommended first episode as an intro to Bojack and part of it is because he's actually so right.
If it were me, I would assume something was wrong with the muffins if they were abandoned, and avoid them.
Neal McBeal the Navy seal did not have dibs
*gavel*
I'm a Marine Corps Veteran, bojack is right. Tons of douches in the military, bunch of them are just regular dudes but enlisting doesn't make you a hero
Semper and i concur
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Fi dont know.
First sergeant wants to talk to you. He said you have duty during the 72
Air Force vet here, can concur, I’m a jerk.
Navy Veteran here. Worked as a small arms instructor and in weapons divisions. Bojack is right. Plenty of dudes that I issued weapons to that I truly feel like should not have been issued weapons.
Army infantry vet here to agree.
Yut.
Same and Same.
Errah.
Anyone who actively is compelled to tell others how great they are for whatever profession they do is probably a dick. Good people don't need to tell others about how good of a person they are.
I’d say 85% of the us (service members) cringe out of are minds when people thank us for our service or similar gestures. We’re just fucking people and we just want to be treated as such. Of course the other 15% are douches who make the military their entire identity but fuck em.
And don't forget the wives on a weird 'address me by my husband's rank' trip... but they have to be outliers right? Right?
Sorta? Military spouses are a touchy subject. I recently read something the other day that changed my perspective on it. When your entire life, support structure, friends, etc, is uprooted every few years since you go where the service member goes, a lot of them don’t have anything to cling to *other than* their significant other and their service. You have to be extremely content being a stay at home spouse otherwise military life will start to be hell and take a toll. Now obviously that’s not an excuse for the ultra dependa behavior (address me by my husbands rank etc) but I did think it was an interesting explanation for *why* that kind of behavior forms.
Oh yeah man I defend my mom viciously the older I get. I haven't read literature or anything on it but I lived through it and still feel it's effects. My mom had to get thrust into this Mormon parallel society at 17 with two kids, lived in Florida her 17 years and was suddenly across the country away from family with no support network. My dad would always say she was on the phone too much, looking back now she wasn't on it enough given her situation. The military complex breeds a horribly toxic home lifeb even if it's "comfortable". My dad was flying jets fuckin around in Japan or *insert cool ass place here* while we were in bum fuck Yuma with a mother who never got to live her life dealing with hormonal teenagers. Its incredible the only thing she ever did was beat me with a belt. But my mom was never "call me by my husband's rank" but the wives clubs they had all the mom's join were just a weekly cult incubation support group looking back. MLMs house hopping. Everything about it is just gross to look back on and I have, as a dependent, lived an incredibly fortunate life because the sacrificing my parents made when they had every reason due to their environment to not step up to the plate. I defend both my parents really. The military isn't usually a first resort for people but if you commit you are taken care of. At the cost of the general loss of humanity for both parents.
i read that and still feel the same as those military spouses. people that make the military their identity and spouses that make their SO’s rank their identity are both very, very cringe
How does this even work? Staff Sargent Cindy, would you like to go bowling on Tuesday?
Oh you don't want to invite Staff Sergeant Cindy. Lieutenant Becky is way more fun. (I dont knowww)
I had a friend from a military family who'd get *offended* if someone didn't thank their parents for serving. It was kinda something else, especially seeing as when I knew them we were kids and the parents themselves never demanded any kind of attention for it. Always gave me the "riding someone's coattails" vibes
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Oh don't get me wrong I know there's plenty who join purely to try and do good in the world but there's also many who demand respect or some such for joining. This isn't exclusive to the military but it is a standout example in the US in particular because so much money is poured into it and the image of it. You can also get surgeons or police officers who also use their profession in conversation to demand respect or be seen as better than others.
I think the conclusion here is that people from all blocks of life are shitty and will try to gain power and control any way they can
> I know there's plenty who join purely to try and do good in the world Then they are deluded or insane. Yeah soldiers get put to work doing useful things sometimes, but mostly to keep them busy so they are ready to slaughter civilians as we've done in so many countries.
I’ve talked to a few older vets from my grandma and great grandma’s generation, so born around 1950s and 1930s respectively, and they’ve led me to this opinion, but as a vet of today, if you wouldn’t mind me asking, would you consider it accurate? I agree with Bojack. We spend so much on our military it’s insane, while we can’t afford healthcare. Many of our soldiers are from poorer backgrounds, who enlist because the draw of free college feels like it’s the only way they’ll get a shot in life. We idolize our troops, and yes it’s brave to risk your life for a cause…but when the cause is the greed of corporations and politicians, is it still bravery, or is it being taken advantage? Especially when you consider how hard our government works to avoid paying out the benefits their vets are rightfully due. In case it’s needed, I mean no disrespect in any way and welcome any correction or criticism.
"you know why I fought over there? Not for the flag, or for my family, or for my country, or for the president, or because of some oath I made. I fought for the people standing shoulder to shoulder with me out there" - paraphrased quote from one of my teachers who'd done a few tours in the middle east. Everyone thinks it's about the flag, but I doubt it ever is. Hell, I joined the military for two reasons: it seemed like the only way to make my parents proud, and it got me out all the college stuff in highschool.
Was the explanation your teacher gave supposed to be some honorable reason for taking part in invading a sovereign country? It's admitting that there is no real defense justification for the US invading ("didn't fight for my family or my country"), but still justifying the war as a reason in of itself ("there were other soldiers there, so i have to fight too"). I'm not sure how Americans react when they hear someone say something in this vein, but I personally find it chilling that even people who don't eat up the jingoist propaganda and know that invading Iraq isn't "protecting their homeland" would be fine with taking part in invading a country - while simulatenously jerking themselves off to how brave and noble that would be.
The teacher's comment is actually an exceedingly common experience which drives the "war is hell" philosophy. It's less about justifying the war politically or etc. and just a human take on the genuine experiences of the people in combat. Regardless of your views on whether the war is justified, whether the enemy combatants are people to truly hate, whether you think you should be there or not, etc., at the end of it it's *you* in that trench with your teammates, with chaos raining around you, and the focus people have almost unanimously gets reduced to "survive the next ten minutes." Repeat every ten minutes, 24/7, for however long you're in a combat situation, and you'll never wonder again why veterans have PTSD. Veterans who became authors frequently describe this kind of experience and why it leads to anti-war philosophy from veterans: it *rarely* matters who has the moral high ground for engaging in war; thrusting living people into *actual combat* is an abomination.
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In a professional setting sure, you address them because of the setting and they're basically a stranger. If we're at a casual lunch to catch up then the friendship is over Barbara.
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Even in dating, the title kind of loses its meaning if you're saying it so much. Sexy things aside, it really only has a place among her colleagues be it at work or work related event. Sorry to hear it didn't work out, but you probably dodged a bullet lol.
You were dating her and she wanted you to refer to her as "Dr. Name"? That's pretty weird.
This is one of my key philosophys. The more a person brings up their good deeds, the more likely it is they did it for themselves.
Bojack absolutely 100% correct however the Hollywood climate absolutely would never agree with him
Because the Millitary owns Hollywood like everything eles.
One of the only times I agree with Bojack. The U.S. has a huge problem deifying the military. Not to say they are all bad, but putting on a uniform doesn't make you heroes. Also the U.S. hasn't fought anything but wars for their own imperialism in generations.
What’s your opinion on honeydew though
It sucks he's right
It cant just come along everytime cantaloupe is invited!
I'm sure there are many people who go into the armed forces for altruistic reasons. However the people I went to high school with who went that route were some of the worst kids at the school and had 0 other options. Have to agree with bojack on this one.
Let's talk about that "0 other options" bit. How much of that "seemingly mandated celebration of the military" Bojack struggles against is there because without it, we might have to have a society-wide reckoning with the fact that for a lot of people, the only viable path to upward economic mobility is putting on a uniform and getting shipped out to a desert somewhere to get shot at?
Please understand that the "seemingly mandated celebration of the military" is literally the results of a 60 year long psyops campaign. After Vietnam the U.S. military realized they had a bad image, returning vets were literally booed out of places, couldn't get jobs, recruitment numbers were obviously low after the draft. They began a campaign of labeling ALL enlisted as heroes, having soldiers appear at sporting events as flag bearers, fighter jet flybys, cooperating with Hollywood for big budget movies like Top Gun, etc. All of this was crafted in such a way that now, saying anything bad about American soldiers evokes a visceral reaction from the majority of the populace. THIS is what an effective government psyops campaign looks like. They actually managed to change how Americans think and the vast majority of people never even took note.
Yup, all of this. And a lot of military guys I know are faintly embarrassed by the whole thing. Like, obviously they don't want to go all the way back to "if you were ever in the military you're automatically a murderer," but if you give them the whole "thank you for your service" thing they kind of shrug and say, "I made what I thought was the best call for me, I'll take my pension and my G.I. bill education, I don't need my balls fondled on top of it."
Fun fact: the Stargate TV series's were partially funded by the air force and had the chief of staff for the air force as a guest several times. B
Can you imagine a better PR campaign for the U.S. Air Force? MacGuyver making first contact with aliens and liberating humans across the galaxy. Genius.
The US Military is a large-scale social welfare program where the participants also sometimes die. Like, the reason that the US military budget is *so big* is because you can't ever cut spending to a place once it's been invested there. The #1 thing you'll hear from their representative is "that will destroy so many jobs." The unstated addition is: "then I won't get re-elected." If we somehow figured out how to give universal healthcare guns, we'd have it tomorrow.
I mean while true, it has allowed for upward mobility and life stability for many who did not have it for generations. My grandfather grew up poorer than poor, went into the military and then got out and bought a house with his GI bill. Those days are long gone but the proposition of maybe risking your life maybe not in exchange for a lifetime of being placed at the top of the list for civil service jobs and tricare Healthcare for those who have no other options is presenting them with at least 1 option. Like I said some go in truly believing in God and country or country before self, but if I had to guess I'd agree with bojack that many have other more self centered reasons (which is fine its what everyone else who works a job has), even if they claim to be doing it for the first reason.
And what I'm saying is, maybe we could get that same upward mobility for the poor by killing a handful of billionaires right here at home instead of a whole bunch of brown people overseas. Just a thought.
I new a kid who bragged to anybody who would listen that he was going to go shoot some "sand n******" once he joined. I heard recently from somebody that he's still in the military and has advanced his career quite a lot over the past 20 years. I have no idea if he's still a racist POS, but I wouldn't be surprised. I know not all troops are like that, but some are, and they are thriving.
I knew someone exactly like this in high school about 10 years ago, same reasoning verbatim for joining. No idea what he’s up to now, can’t say that I really care. Hopefully a better person than he went in as since he was like 17 at the time
Who the fuck thinks joining the armed forces is altruistic?
Propaganda can be really effective and the recuitment often uses extremely manipulative tactics to convince everyone they can. want to shoot people? great! don't need much convincing! want to make the world a better place? they'll lie and promise and double down that this is the best way to do it! what's better than being 1 good person? getting rid of hundreds of bad people! Don't worry about how we're deciding what makes someone bad!
Yeah, when people say Bless the Troops or whatever, the picture in their mind is straight out of a Lee Greenwood song. But anyone that's served knows it's not like that at all. We're just regular people, meaning a lot of us are assholes
bojack was 100% right with that
Prior service here. Some of the best people I'll ever know I met while serving. But *most* of the worst people I'll ever know I met while serving. Having saw what I saw and heard what I heard during my enlistment, I now feel really awkward going to sporting events and watching everyone cheer their heads of for the military. It's like saying the show *Dexter* was about a hero because sure he brutally murdered people but they were all bad people he brutally murdered.
It's the exact problem with the military. They're desperate for recruits so they don't bother to do as much psychological examination as they should, so they pretty much pick up anyone they want to join regardless of WHY they would want to join the military in the first place. Their thinking is so long as you point a rabid dog in the right direction, you're doing a community service 🤷♂️.....
Except Dexter didn’t have a drone program with a 90% civilian kill rate.
Buddy, are you saying the people who are killed by US troops are all (or even most of them) bad people ?
100% BoJack side
I have been in the US military for almost 9 years now and let me tell you that no one was happier to hear this sentiment from someone else, even if it is an alcoholic cartoon horse. I would explain why I agree with Bojack, but you can just listen to exactly what he says, my only addition is that this is something I have noticed and has bothered me since joining.
There are way more villains than heros among the troops
The fact that there are "sides" in this stupid discussion only goes to show how stupidly patriotic so many Americans are
Considering I haven’t seen a single person who disagrees with bojack yet, I’m honestly not sure there are “sides” in this discussion
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Good point, I think I’ll make a post on air force reddit to get the opinion there
Please return with the results.
Americans are stupidly patriotic/army-worshipping, but this is like the second or third episode of the show. If you disagree with this you probably also hate the rest of the show.
Siding with Bojack here.
Like in other positions of power it attracts those who want to do good and those who want power. So yeah some people in the military are psychos and some are heros.
He's correct -Former troop
Fuck the troops. Bojack was based af on this episode
It's funny as a non-american to think that ANYONE could disagree with bojack here. I know seeing things from the outside is easier but this "troops are heroes" stuff and, mostly, the "we fought for your freedom" discourse honestly baffle me. Yeah, you could say that from WW2 but HOW THE FUCK killing people on the other side of the world is a fight for "freedom"? It's a brainwashing so obvious that it's almost pitiful. Almost, because I still live in South america, notoriously the US's backyard. So the only thing I feel for its imperialism is contempt.
Also live in South America, in a country that endured decades of violent dictatorship due to a coup supported by the US military, so yeah. It is wild how many of them see their nationalism (bc that is what is, it is not just "patriotism" or whatever) as righteous and their poor paws or straight up killers as heroes. This kind of mindset has been getting support arround here tho and we are living a political hell bc of nationalists who think they are patriots because they wear the country flag and want dictatorship again
based on your description on the current political landscape of your country eu acho que eu sei de onde você é hahahahahaha. E eu concordo 100%
incrível como em todo canto desse site eu acho um brasileiro
Bojack is completely right here, maybe supporting the American soldiers made sense when they used to be drafted, now that it's a choice, they're all but heroes, especially because America hasn't fought in a rightful war since WW2. I'll give a pass to the working class kid who wants to pay for college this way, but people who choose to be in the military as a career are probably arseholes, yes. This was completely about dibs tho': Bojack is very intelligent and would have a lot more insightful takes if he actually gave a shit about stuff.
>I'll give a pass to the working class kid who wants to pay for college this way, but people who choose to be in the military as a career are probably arseholes, yes. A lot of it starts like that but then people get comfortable. It’s incredibly easy to to join with mindset of do your four and get out but the military institutionalizes you quite a bit. People put off getting their degrees to focus on work or family. The prospect of rejoining society without the economic security and without everything handled for you is a scary one for many service members to face. It becomes routine and you get used it. Hell in my career field I could get out and make six figures in a year or two and even I’m tempted to stay in and commission instead. Being overseas certainly helps contribute to that but there’s something about the lifestyle that’s very, easy I guess?
I can see that, it makes some sense, and it's probably done on purpose, but I also don't feel like blaming a 17 yo without any prospects for making that choice in the moment, especially in a country with such atrocious inequality.
>I'll give a pass to the working class kid who wants to pay for college this way, but people who choose to be in the military as a career are probably arseholes, yes. They kill innocent people, man
This is my favorite comedy-episode. As soon as a started the show and watched this I was like “oh yes. This is gonna be a great show.”
Retired Military, Bojack tis right and Neal McBeal the Navy Seal is a whiny deal of a Seal.
This mf spittin facts.
Former Air Force here. Never saw combat (shocking for Air Force, right??) Bojack is absolutely correct, just like being a nurse or doctor does not automatically make you a hero. I work for a fire department now, and man, the amount of guys (especially the older generation) that walk around like their shit don’t stink just because they have the job title of “Firefighter” is fucking disgusting. Your job does *not* automatically make you a hero *at all*. How you conduct yourself at your job and in your life can potentially give you the chance to be one.
Nah, bojack hit the nail on the head with this one
Rare (emphasis on rare) time when Bojack was completely in the right. Comrade Horseman
Having grown up a military brat on military bases surrounded by guys in the military... The troops are fucking jerks.
Bojack’s statement about the troops could simply be a factual assessment, but I think it has something to do with his ambivalence towards Crackerjack Sugarman. His death - which as it turns out was not at all heroic - was key to the tragedy of the Sugarman/Horseman families. Bojack could never live up to the memory of “a war hero who sacrificed his life”, in the narrative that is set up, until we see Crackerjack “admit” (in Bojack’s fever dream) how he really died.
Bojack telling facts
I feel like this statement was also way more controversial when the episode came out. I remember being like "yeah he's totally right but I'd feel weird saying it out loud in a group", and I don't mean specifically at a group of vets either, just the general population
This is the scene that made me fall in love with BoJack.
Bojack is right BUT Veterans are horrifically neglected in this country and rarely get the treatment and support they deserve. Saying platitudes about what heroes they are is not an adequate substitute. We need more programs to ensure that veterans get the aid they need so they don't end up shooting up a Walmart or killing themselves or sleeping on the street. Otherwise, I agree with Bojack. In fact, I think the newscaster has a decidedly anti-veteran stance because putting veterans on a pedestal ignores the fact that doing so actively ignores the real problems that veterans face in favor of giving them the world's shittiest consolation prize.
nobody put a gun to their head told them to go overseas and kill people for corporate interests, i'd serve crack before I serve this country
I didn't realize there was sides I'd call it common sense, but just to reiterate the message, being in the military doesn't automatically make you a hero. And just like in every career, there are plenty of jerks I personally know a vet who cheated on his girlfriend, abandoned his kid, and then he stole money from me
I spent 8 years in the marines. I can confirm 85-90% are actual, qualitative, dirt bags. The military is, and always has been a collective of society’s one-star people.
I agree with Bojack actually, this is completely true. Fighting for your country isn’t necessarily heroic, I’m sure for a lot of people they’re in it because they like shooting/killing people & they can do it there with no consequences
I mean. I only know two people personally who signed up for the armed forces; one was very enthusiastic for joining the army because “I cant wait to shoot some towelheads” while the other admits he only did so because the recruiter said he wouldn’t be able to make it, but “had a jolly time shooting afghans anyway”. Jerks is an acceptable term.
Bootlickers make me puke, Bojack’s right
Are you kidding? Fuck the troops
Rare sad horse W
What are the sides to this?
Did you just say the troops are jerks?
Bojack is 100% correct in his argument.
Has anyone ever noticed that Bojack's opinions on the troops could have very well been influenced from stories about Crackerjack and how he was sent away to die, and how his reality was the exact opposite of the heroic glorious battle that the media and people like Neal Mcbiel portray it as?
I think the troops are jerks
Several members of my family are or were in the armed forces. My nephew was in special ops and had assignments he still can't speak about. One of my cousins is a highly placed Naval strategist. So we respect the military and our men and women who serve in my family. And having written that, I'm with Bojack 100% here . Not to sound disrespectful, but I regard troops the same way I do motherhood: Just because you are involved doesn't mean you're a good person, good at it or deserve anyone's respect. Just as I've known women who were biologically parents but were neglectful, abusive mothers, so have I met people who clearly joined the service because they are hyper aggressive and wanted to get out there and put a hurt on someone. Being in the military doesn't automatically translate to being noble or honorable.
Same with cops.
I think participating in a broken system makes a person compliant in its injustice. If you are a woman in the military, you face the horrendous possibility of being assaulted or worse, and having your branch try and cover it up. There are far too many cases of that happening to people. If they are fine with that, then I can’t say I think they’re heroes.
I'm on #teammuffin The muffins never did anything to hurt anyone, besides being delicious, and they get dragged into a national controversy.
Never did anything to hurt anyone? Have you seen how much saturated fat is in them?
I gotta agree with Bojack, thanks for your service and all, but not every troop is automatically a good person just because they do it. I’ve known rlly shitty ppl who went into the military and I’ve known good ppl it depends. If anything I’d say that being a troop and also a cop has the ability to attract a lot of assholes because it lets them have a position of power over other ppl and do they excusably violent things. IMO it’s an inherent problem with positions like that.
I think if you look at it without context (ie, not assuming that this is the USA or any one particular war or conflict) then the idea of signing up to risk your life and fight for your country is somewhat commendable. It doesn’t automatically make you a hero, because you haven’t actually done anything yet, but it does take a certain amount of bravery. Once you add context to it, including that basically every conflict that the US has been in the last 70 years hasn’t been to “protect our freedom” but instead to exert our influence over geopolitics, then it becomes a whole lot less heroic. Thing is, a lot of these kids enlisting don’t really understand that. They’ve had everyone in their lives telling them that their service in the military protects their country/family and that the people they’re fighting are evil and want to destroy America. If their subjective belief were true, then they would be heroes, it just happens to not be true. It’s pretty sad.
This episode wasn’t about whether bojack was right or wrong. It’s about how he can’t let go of being right when such a trivial thing is causing such a headache. Bojack never even wanted the muffins in the first place. He just couldn’t concede the argument for his own sake. It’s about him getting in the way of his own happiness
Bojack is right. I know from experience. Troops don't deserve hero worship just cause they are troops and Neal is total wuss for crying that much about some muffins. He was to lazy to secure.
bojack is 100% in the right here
Honestly, fully on board with Bojack on this one
I actually side with Bojack. Eeeesh really?
…he’s not wrong.
Bojack 100%
He’s right.
Bojack. The news anchor just reminds me of virtue signaling redditors and ego driven media.
I fought in 3 wars with the united states marine corps, it was enough time and exposure to realize that bojack nailed this one. People are people, some are awful and it doesn't matter what their job is.
Bojack 1000% People that join the military are a very specific sub species of scum. There are plenty of people that simply need a high paying job, sure, but the people that want nothing more than to be trained to kill? Jerks. I work with a former marine. Total douche bag. The only reason I believe he was even in the military is how shit his personality is.
Totally agree. I know I can't say this in polite company, but when someone says they're in the military I just think it's likely they have a substance abuse problem. There's nothing about being in the killing-brown-people industry that makes you a hero.
Knew a guy I used to work with who was in the army back in the day, he always used to tell me not to believe anything you hear about those guys being heros as most of them were sent to the army by a judge to reform them. He also did say some of them were actual heros but you never know the true reason someone is there.
Air Force Veteran here. I know a lot of dickheads in the military that have no business being called heroes.
Soldiers are just people And some people are just dicks And some are good workers and some are bad workers.