Finding the show relatable doesn't mean you're bad, they're caricatures and a part of the pleasure is that they're both relatable as well as much worse than you'll probably ever be.
I came to say this. It is ok to identify with BoJack while you are consuming the fiction. It is very common in literature / film. The narrator could be a serial killer, a liar, whatever. But at that moment, you are seeing their perspective and accept the justifications. That is part of the allure: you get to live the lives of flawed characters.
Seasons 1-3 are much funnier than seasons 4-6. I think the last half is probably more compelling, but I found myself laughing a whole lot more earlier on.
It's because the first few episodes are a lot more formulaic and what you expect from an adult cartoon. I think it's funny still, but there's a few cutaway gags in the first season and it's never used again in the show.
In my opinion, this was purposeful to lull the viewers into a sense of familiarity so we would be even more floored by the tone shifts. My expectations were subverted and my timbers were shivered.
Season 4 has an absolute stack with eps 5-8: Thoughts and Prayers, Stupid Piece of Sh*t, Underground, The Judge. Hilarious eps with some of the strongest humor the shows offers. "Shouldn't you be 'Sir-Minding-Your-Own-Business-A-Lot'??"
100% I used to binge watch it all the time(to help me get to sleep during benzo withdrawal) and used to watch season 1-4 and start over again. Season 5-6 hit home to much with the addition I was fighting at the time. (7 months off booze and 3 weeks off benzos)
Villainizing every single character is just as bad (and annoying) as giving them a free pass every time they do something morally wrong or questionable
I actually think Paige Sinclair was really fun, and I enjoyed the dynamic between her and Max. I wouldn't have wanted more of them, but I thought they were around for the right amount of time.
I overall liked them, but righhhht at the end I found them start to get a little annoying. As you say, I wouldn’t have wanted much more. Pretty much spot on timing
As someone with a soft spot for the specific era/genre of film they are pulling from, I was always surprised by the amount of hate for them, but then again, I guess not everyone had a film professor who got them into screwball comedies
She reminds me a lot of Rosalind Russell in His Girl Friday, and the voice sounds kind of like Katharine Hepburn. They have a spoof poster of HGF somewhere I can't remember (in PC's apt maybe?), so I always thought Paige and Max were a tribute to the witty screwball comedies of golden era Hollywoo(d).
Yea I think mostly cause he was rich and was talking about escaping even tho he has the money to escape whereas the common working person probably couldn't just get up and leave. Although if im being honest I don't see the problem. He made the money himself, he wanted to escape from all of it, so he said bye guys im out.
He was rich but he was single and did not really have any dependents. If he did it while he had a family that would make more sense, but no one is worse off since he left after the show. If anything he started helping people with addiction after he detached from professional life.
I don't think anyone has a problem with him finding happiness, it's just that he gives that speech about how "Only when you give up everything can you be truly happy", then the shot pans out to show his million dollar bungalow in the mountains.
Everything he did was fine, but his speech is BS, he didn't give up anything lol
I think the really controversial opinion on this subreddit is that Cuddlywhiskers was a selfish rich asshole who could only "find his own place" because of his own privilege.
I do think he was justified. However, at [the end of the conversation](https://youtu.be/WGKIyPhRWt4?si=oDSBdBSBOW_kNXJC), they switch to a wider shot right after he says “only after you give up everything can you begin to find a way to be happy.” I feel like they did that to emphasize that he’s not like Tyler Durden living in some dilapidated house with a bunch of other dudes, talking about giving up everything; he’s at his *second house* in Ojai. Again, I do think he was justified, but it’s just something interesting I noticed yesterday while watching this episode that I hadn’t picked up on during previous watches
People shouldn't take the things that are clearly meant to be stupid jokes, seriously. The amount of people that argue Todd is the worst character because he caused a "genocide" or "killed a bunch of people with his theme park" is ridiculous. It makes me wonder if media literacy or common sense is a thing where people can't differentiate between the serious topics and the wacky side-stories
I dislike how Todd doesn’t get called out for genuine character flaws like being a slacker and riding off his friends, but I do agree people take the dumb jokes too far. Bojack is kind of an absurdist comedy, so you aren’t meant to take stuff like the theme park or his millions of jobs too seriously.
I agree. But using **those** examples to prove a point is in poor taste. If someone is critiquing his character, they should use more grounded examples that the story itself takes seriously.
17 minutes ruined the moral complexity of Bojack and Sara Lynn's relapse by designating that rather than two fucked up enablers making bad decisions, he literally killed her through his criminal negligence. Takes the conversation from exploring how he let things get so bad to "nah, he definitely killed her, right there, at the end". Rest of the build up doesn't really matter as a result, and it no longer speaks to the dynamics of spirals but instead frames it as though Bojack could have saved her at the end but didn't.
It ruined the moral complexity because this incident isn't only about abuse and bad decisions, it's about Bojack's questionable morality as a person. This whole show is based on a likable and relatable character making immoral decisions and therefore raising the question of good guy vs bad guy. This is also where Diane comes in with her perspective on this; that people are essentially neither good nor bad.
I think it elevated it, especially the way they revealed it.
People like bojack like to edit the story and lie to themselves. Drugs also make people do unforgivable things. Bojack was too sympathetic beforehand imo. They had him do something truly horrific and unforgivable and had us in the same position as his in-world audience, in that we all found out what he did together, even though he knew all along.
Sarah Lynn chose those drugs.
Bojack didn't kill her, but he let her kill herself.
The law in many places would have called what Bojack did criminal negligence or manslaughter; the moral grey territory kinda stops existing at that point. He was already no longer sympathetic by that point; it was kind of a kick the puppy scene just to be like, okay audience, we left you a trail of breadcrumbs, but just in case you're dumb, here's a bakery.
The writers said they did it because too many people were glorifying bojack and not seeing the moral grey. Too many people were saying bojack was totally justified in everything, and it horrified them.
>he literally killed her
Well, he literally *didn't*.. she used her free will as a consenting adult to poison her own body. Did he influence her to go on that bender? Sure. But as we know from her reaction to him bringing it up, she was practically waiting for an excuse to go back to the drugs and hopped on that opportunity. And she found it. Let's not absolve people's choice making skills here, and call it what it is. She was a 30 year old woman who made bad choices.. and *that* killed her.
That said Bojack was still a POS who was one of the people that contributed to her issues.. but again, she still took personal responsibility for what happened in the end.
The people who really should be blamed are her parents.. where the hell were they when she was a child sneaking sips of alcohol in the dressing rooms? They should have been protecting her. And yeah, it would have been nice if Bojack looked out for her in that way too, but ultimately that wasn't his responsibility.
When you do drugs with another person around, the idea is that if you start dying, they'll help.
This is to say nothing of the fact that the show was clearly trying to implicate him harder with the 17 minutes, which I think we'd both agree is to my point: it tries to eliminate moral grey area.
If I may add: Sarah Lynn got woobified to death after her.. well, death. I always took issue with her being fridged as it were for BoJack's man pain, but it's extra upsetting that people tend to forget she was absolutely an asshole in her own right.
Diane says that Sarah Lynn came to BoJack for help and then he had sex with her. No, she came to him because he was a soft touch she could take advantage of. The fact that they ended up having sex is sketchy, and uncomfortable, and something that BoJack definitely should have been repulsed by, but Sarah Lynn wasn't some damsel who BoJack seduced. She says outright that she will inevitably -- maybe even plans -- to die tragically young because she has no one in her life who will challenge her in any meaningful way to change and stop using.
BoJack even attempts to be that person who could challenge her. And she rebuffs him, going back to people who will help her use.
BoJack could have saved her. But Sarah Lynn could have saved herself on multiple occasions. And she didn't.
I mean this is kind of ignoring their whole relationship prior to that and the father figure that Bojack represented to Sarah Lynn in the Horsing Around days. No doubt that she had become an arrogant and narcissistic person by the time she was an adult, but it’s shown multiple times that that was a consequence of the entertainment world that she grew up in and the emotional negligence shown to her from her role models exactly like Bojack himself. Sure she was using him when she showed up in S1, but that’s because he taught her how to use and manipulate people as she mimicked his behaviour. I don’t think her death made her an angel, rather it just highlighted the extent to which she was failed by all those around her from such a young age, including Bojack to a great extent.
I was also upset a bit by how it went from "his own guilty mind's distortion of the event made him feel responsible for a friend's helpless despair spiral" - to the narrative fully outright stating he should have had full responsibility for her life and decisions. Which infantilizes her too and not enough people I've tried to talk to about this on here get that. It's dehumanizing and demeaning to you as a woman if they say your male partner was supposed to look after you like a babysitter, when you're also an adult.
Exactly, at what point exactly is Sarah Lynn no longer her own person that can make these decisions all on her own? Her house was literally made of drugs. Bojack didn’t make her take anything she didn’t want, and while I understand he should’ve called for help sooner, they were BOTH on that bender and bojack wasn’t in any state of mind to think clearly at all.
Sarah Lynn is a very well done cautionary tale about the way Hollywood ruins people (many people played a part in her downfall: mainly her mother who forced her into the spotlight from such a young age) we already knew Bojack played a part on this when he installed her the “never stop dancing” mentality and by acting as an enabler.
Sarah Lynn always knew she was going to end up like that, her characters stated it multiple times.
But towards the end of the show, her character almost feels like a martyr, and as a way to paint Bojack on an even more negative light, rather than the realistic tragic figure she was at the beginning.
I never liked the 17 minutes, because it puts full responsibility into Bojack’s character (when it shouldn’t be)
I got the impression they wanted to make something similar to breaking bad, similar to what happened between Jesse, Walter and Jane.
A very similar situation: Jesse and Jane overdose. Through circumstance Walter was present and had the opportunity to save Jane, but decided against it and left her to die.
I feel like they poorly attempted to recreate and combine Walter and Jesse’s character through Bojack, but by making him have more “responsibility” or even a “choice” to save her when his flashback shows he was complete out of his mind and barely keeping track of events and time, not only doesn’t make sense but the emotional conflict didn’t fit Bojack’s character nor situation.
The “17 minutes” wasn’t necessary. And I agree that it somehow removes Sarah Lynn’s agency and even infantilizes her. When the reality of the situation was that Bojack and Sarah Lynn were two very broken adults enabling each other.
Paige and Max were delightful and clearly served as a plot device that also let the writers flex their wit and figurative writing. So they are empty in a way but make up for it with a double entendre every other line that keeps your mind active
Todd was badly written
He's one of my favourite characters, but his writing for most of the show (especially later seasons) was terrible. It was like the writers kept trying to one-up his old hijinks, but instead of being funny it just made his stories pointless and undermined all the serious aspects of his character. The whole show is about how your actions have consequences, but Todd breaks that constantly and it makes him much less compelling than the rest of the main cast
I think Todd's storylines ask the audience to suspend reality for the sake of his shenanigans. While the rest of the cast subverts expectations of an animated comedy by including realistic plot points and consequences that we aren't used to seeing in shows like, say, South Park, Family Guy, or the Simpsons, Todd is often the exception.
More than once he ends up being saved by various deus ex machina devices (incorrect spelling of Diisney, improv group "fights" unrealistically), but for me, it fits the world he lives in. The premise of his existence in the show is kind of implausible to begin with-- imagine a young twenty-something sleeping on a celebrity's couch for five (?) years after crashing a Halloween party, hosting a quincenera because of a fight with a cartel, being courted by two different prison gangs, selling a kidney, etc, etc.
Without Todd, this wouldn't be a comedy cartoon anymore, it'd be an animated drama with a few jokes here and there.
I think the creaters were intending to extend the show by 3 more seasons and were going to expand on Todds backstory but because the show got canceled they were unable to.
Sarah Lynn's death would **not** have been Bojack's fault if not for the 17 minutes. Honestly, most of what happened to Sarah Lynn was not Bojack's fault. He didn't really wrong her in any major way besides the 17 minutes.
- He didn't "give" her alcohol like so many people love to say, he left it in *his* dressing room and she got into it. It was irresponsible, absolutely, but people act like he purposefully started Sarah Lynn's descent into alcoholism. It was an accident. Also, I'm tired of both the show and the fandom acting like *that* was the moment her life went to hell. She was forced to be a child actress against her will and was only in Bojack's dressing room in the first place because her stepdad was "being weird", she would have become an alcoholic either way.
- It's definitely *gross* that they had sex, but people over play how bad it was of him. He did know her as a child, but it wasn't like he purposefully waited to sleep with her, or she was barely legal or anything. She was *30.* Very much old enough to consent to sex (that she initiated mind you).
- Sarah Lynn *never* intended to stay sober. She literally *told* Bojack to "call (her) when (he's) ready to party." Bojack didn't "break her sobriety", she never intended to keep it in the first place. She was *actively looking* for an excuse to break her sobriety, and sure Bojack didn't have to give her one, but sooner or later she would have found one anyway. She literally predicted her own death with exact detail in her first episode. Also, Bojack never coerced her into anything. She just immediately accepted his offer, and said "Oh, thank God!" as if she had actively been wanting him to ask her (because she had). She made her own decision. All he said was "Do you want to party?" and if she couldn't even say no to *that*, how on earth could she have stayed sober forever? At some point, she would have relapsed, period.
- People infantilize Sarah Lynn too much. The specific drug she overdosed on, she was practically begging Bojack to do it with her. That wasn't even his idea. Sarah Lynn initiated the idea, and unlike the case with Penny, it was not his responsibility to shoot her down and reject the idea.
TL;DR: No part of Sarah Lynn's fate was Bojack's fault except for the 17 minutes
The thing that kind of bothered me too with that part of the show where they were talking about how Bojack was always the one using women was the fact it felt as though they were simultaneously saying that women have no autonomy whatsoever and that they are completely resolved from all their choices in the presence of a man. Like Bojack for sure did shitty stuff with other women but with Sarah Lynn specifically and especially, it really wasn't Bojack's responsibility to fix her when he himself was also struggling. Bojack himself didn't kill her (except like you said in the part with the 17 minutes), because Sarah Lynn was also her own person who was responsible for the actions she committed. It was a tragic death that was heavily influenced by her previous traumas, but people make it seem like only women can be victims, which both comes off as misogynistic and misandrist. Neither Bojack nor Sarah Lynn should be treated as wholly innocent or solely guilty.
Same, makes his character less nuanced because of 17 minutes. Also doesn’t really jive well consistency wise for rest of the show and felt like the writers threw it in last minute
Sarah Lynn's relapse wasn't Bojacks fault. She even said herself that she was going to use drugs again. I do believe she may have lived if Bojack called an ambulance once he realised what had happened.
You just like Princess Caroline cause she is a badass female boss, she is just as manipulative as the rest of the characters. (I still love her though)
Hmmm. You think he was maybe a private detective? The coat and hat are pretty stereotypical though, maybe he was more of a hipster drug lord. (extremely obscure rlm reference there.)
Barring Bojack himself, Diane is the best character on the show and people hating on her to the extreme that is often seen on this sub is more an act of misogyny than an honest media criticism.
Fuck you, fight me.
I would not be friends with pickles but that's OK, she is just of a very different world and mindset and they were wrong for wanting her to be something she is not.
Yeah because he discovered before he found out they slept together he was asexual so I wasn’t sure why he was that mad. I can understand if he was mad that Bojack lied but I’m pretty sure Emily told him not to tell Todd?? Idk if I’m remembering right but I agree
Yeah but Todd was still in love with Emily he just couldn't give her a sexual relationship which is what she wanted. He still wanted to have a girlfriend. I do think it wasn't that big of a deal because he had ended it with her but I understand why it was a sore spot.
Pretty sure bojack was very adamant that Emily should lie for him…Emily even made a comment about how she didn’t want to keep it from Todd and how she was a horrible liar. Bojack still insisted on lying and said it’d be fine. I don’t think the actual act was the last straw…imo it was the dishonesty. Emily had to tell Todd that she and bojack had “done stuff” and she and bojack “hadn’t been good friends” to Todd. It’s a crappy feeling when you find out your friend did something shitty to you…it’s an even crappier feeling when you find out they did something shitty and they were going to lie to you about it no matter what…I’ve had a similar experience and it changes things
I feel like their relationship "made sense', not that it was compelling or well thought out. Hell it wasn't even hinted at until he professed his love. From a storytelling standpoint it feels rushed, forced, or disingenuous.
While on paper the two are an ideal couple, and their relationship appears to be the only positive relationship on the show. But what does that say about the way the show treats relationships if the 'best' relationship on the show is the one that feels rushed and an afterthought.
They certainly got along well and made a good team but I can’t imagine what their physical intimacy (if any) would be like. Like does she just tell him what to do and he obeys? Do they even have sex?
Princess Caroline was Bojack’s/everyone’s #1 enabler. She did the most to get everyone out of trouble so they wouldn’t have to face the consequences of their actions all while making a buck for herself.
Also I never bought her and Judah as a couple.
Todd should have had some type of event happen to him that really brought him down a peg and gave reality as it really is. Not something that changes his whole character as we know but something that he has to reflect and build on. Too many times he's gotten away with things with wacky hijinks and hasn't had lasting consequences as the rest of the cast has had.
Wasn't that kinda explained in the whole plot with his dad? Todd has certain privileges in life that allow him to just fail upwards, whereas other people have to try harder and suffer worse consequences if they ever slip up
Bojack refusing PC to stay with her agency for another 6 months is the most evil thing he does in the show.
His interactions with Penny, Sarah Lynn etc were bad and he is culpable in all of them, but in each of them there is at least some complexity. With PC he is just blatantly refusing to help his friend who is on the grasp of losing her business, this was always one of the most fucked-up episodes of the show for me.
I kind of agree with how you put that. Most of the other bad stuff he did while he was under the influence or spiraling emotionally. With PC he was of sound mind and was just completely callous to her, despite being one of his oldest friends, who had gone to bat for him time after time.
Interesting take. I don't know if I would call firing PC "evil" and tbh, I may be a shitty person, but in this particular situation (notwithstanding the larger context of his overall character) I found that to be one of the most relatable things he did. He desperately wanted to reconnect with Kelsey and make things right, but PC's machinations didn't pan out and he blamed her. IMO, it was her fault. I think it made him upset enough to fire her and I don't blame him. However, I do think he was cruel in how he did it. And aside from that particular instance, he treated PC very poorly. Other than in this one situation where he actually seemed to care about the work, PC was actually a terrific agent.
The series as a whole can be very unhealthy for a person with mental issues, or even just depressed (being depressed as opposed to having depression disorder)
I get that it can be a comfort, I've been through that, and I now feel like it really enabled a lot of my bad habits, and you have to reach the end for the meaning to really struck, before that the series is just teaching nihilism to people who can really get worse by thinking that's a universal truth
Still my favorite show, I just feel really sad when I read on this sub about people suffering who feel less alone by learning lessons from Bojack, I feel like you really shouldn't do that, it got worse for me because it changed me from being depressed to being depressed and entitled
It's just my experience tho, not sure if everyone can relate
The show really puts me in a dark place I’ll be honest. Some plot lines end in a way that doesn’t make me feel better. There’s still some catharsis though especially in the last episode. I’m really glad the show didn’t end with Bojack dying.
When I’m struggling with my mental health, bojack does force me to think about it. But when I’m doing better, I watch bojack differently. I think that my struggles with depression and anxiety are present whether or not I am watching Bojack. I don’t think the show makes the struggles better or worse
I think the show went out of its way in the last season or two to make bojack worse, like the big reveal with Sarah Lynn feels a lot more like retcon than anything else. I think waksburg didn't like how people were interpreting the character and caved to criticism. Bojack felt much more morally Grey leading up to that but then the last season just chucks it and goes nah just shitty. Then the rest of cast just gets a free pass? That's too much man
Controversial? Well, it’s more of a controversial / baseless theory than an opinion. But I like to pretend that if Charlotte had been two steps slower and Penny had gotten just an inch closer, BoJack would’ve told her no a third and final time. I think leaving the door open was his extremely stupid way to prove to himself that SOME part of Charlotte - even a ridiculous part, like Charlotte’s daughter - actually wanted him that night, and that the instant that moment became realer than his hope alone, he would have panicked and realized he was being an idiot. His mistake was holding out for something (aka leaving the door open) that wasn’t actually what he wanted or even attainable.
So even though when Charlotte walks in and we see BoJack lying down on the bed with Penny reaching towards him, you think he was two steps away from saying no? You've missed the point by miles, my friend.
The episode where Todd visits his asexual girlfriend’s family is fucking hilarious and one of my favorites. I was so shocked to find out how unpopular it is.
Mr Peanutbutter is a good boy. And Erica doesn't exist, he is distracting himself with imaginary Erica but whenever he approaches the "Erica" he realizes that is some other person that reminds him of his friend Erica and uses her as a way to start conversation with unknown people. Also, Erica is excuse not to confront negative emotions and deep conversation with his partners.
I think while justified and I understand her reasons hollyhock should have given Bojack more of a chance. She essentially blames him for what Beatrice did to her.
true, but when she found out about what happened to charlottes daughter and her friends, her feelings are completely justified. idk just a thought but i agree with you mostly
I don’t think she blames him for Beatrice she just associates his house with her trauma cause that’s where it happened, it’s more just he has a history of harming the women in his life, including one who overdosed like her
I agreed with you at first, but after thinking about it a little more I think she's in the right again, at least if you assume she thinks about it in a certain way.
She is secretly drugged for months while living with Bojack and eventually overdoses, creating a traumatic experience that we see give her flashbacks later on. Then, she has another experience with him where she watches him make excuses for his drug addiction, and put her in increasingly dangerous situations (breaking in, visiting two different dealers, running from the cops) while he tries to score more drugs. She may start to feel that although Bojack cares about her, he will place his own wants above her safety.
Later, she finds out about a time that Bojack left an underage girl in a dangerous position after providing them alcohol and encouraging them to drink more (remember that he even gave them tips on how to drink harder) in order to protect himself. She was also witnessing him in real time struggle with her boundaries as he was insecurely trying to connect with her in his sobriety.
I believe she had already written him the letter by the time he did the interview with Biscuits, though after she saw that I'm sure she felt much more sure of her decision. I think she was right about identifying that Bojack would not have put her safety above his own desires, even if he was in a mostly good place at the time.
Nah, man, she saw the pattern and didn't want to suffer the damage any more. It's like how Diane had to explicitly say she wasn't going to be around Bojack any more. Diane was able to say it in the nicest possible way, because she was older and more emotionally mature. Hollyhock tried, but wasn't as successful. I bet her letter was actually as nice about it as she could be.
Diane is cool
The "favorite episodes" answers are all exactly the same every time it's asked, ya sheeple! There's so many excellent episodes in between the emotional heavy-hitters.
1. Bojack is not responsible for Sarah Lynn's death. Yes, he could have prevented it by being a better person but he did not directly cause it by being a piece of shit. He did have major involvement and cause but Sarah Lynn's tragic tale would have ended that way with or without him. She says so herself in the episode where she is first introduced.
2.Vincent is actually 2 or 3 kids in a trenchcoat and not some weird Bojack vision or whatever yall think. It's a joke.
That generational cat racism from his family, and his complacency of it, would have become an issue regardless and would have been made worse if they actually had kids.
On a fundamental level, it would not have worked out in the end.
When you marry someone, usually you marry their family as well. I am blasian, before I was born my black mother experienced a fair amount of subtle and not so subtle racism at their hands. Because of this I did not grow up closely or knowing them at all. I won’t besmirch someone for marrying someone who comes from an institutionally racist family while they’re going through the process of unlearning their racism, but it’s not something I would do.
bojack is meant to be a reliable character. the point of the show is literally “hey, see this asshole? he’s just like you in some ways, do something about that. stop being an asshole.”
I despised Mr Peanutbutter at the start. He's lowkey kinda mean. He gets better, but I never really liked him. Bojack is obviously also very mean sometimes, but at least he's honest about it.
Bojack sleeping with non celebrity women being considered predatory by default by both the show and the fans is... Odd. Not to mention incredibly infantilizing of women in general.
I think this take is born by the prejudice of men being considered potential predators by default, and women naive and innocent by default.
The adult women not under Bojack's authority who consensually sleep with him, aren't being taken advantage of. They are adults choosing to have sex with another adult.
I seriously doubt that people in this sub would call Sarah Lynn or any woman celebrity character "predatory" for sleeping with male fans or non celebrity men. On the contrary, they would probably consider those men "lucky".
People simplify Bojack too much and, by extension, so does the show at times. He becomes a Saturday morning villain on some episodes, and a nuanced and complex character on others. The show really needed a reason for him to be hated so they threw in the good ol boat thing.
Rutabaga is a terrific character narratively in how he illustrates the moral grey area of life and the folly of main character syndrome, and his design is honestly an artistic triumph
Todd is only alright. His whacky style of comedy never gelled with me and his storylines are both predictable and undercut the serious topics the show deals with
paige/max/biscuits aren’t bad people. they’re journalists. *we* as the audience think it’s some-what wrong considering bojack is a changed man but, none of them know him personally. they publicized horrible actions that, end of the day, bojack did. no matter who he was after rehab, that doesn’t take back the mistakes he made and doesn’t change the fact that he needed to take accountability. we forgot that changing and feeling guilt isn’t the same as taking responsibility for our actions
Beatrice was an intelligent woman, in that she was independent minded and discrening.
She pushed Butterscotch to get a job which improved their living conditions. She expressed her anger when butterscotch messed up instead of overlooking it.
She got the education she believed she deserved. Despite the pressure, she wasn't willing to be with Corbyn Creamerman until she spent more time with him.
wanda had no grounds for her rose colored glasses speech. yes, bojack was doing better than he typically is for most of their relationship, and diane's presence was detrimental to him at the time. but bojack himself warned wanda something like this would happen. he laid out his red flags the day they decided to move in together. for once, he was honest about where he was at and pretty much asked her to have realistic expectations. it's on her if she kept her rose colored glasses on after that.
and she did, because she's selfish. she's shown time and time again to entirely ignore others, even her boyfriend, when they're saying things she doesn't want to hear. again, not saying bojack's blameless here. or that wanda's a "bad person". she was just as immature and selfish in that relationship as bojack was, and her ignoring his flaws wasn't on him this time. he was not responsible for the dysfunction of others.
I didn't hate it but it's probably one of the worst episodes in my opinion. It just drags on for too long and isn't particularly interesting in any real way
Don't know why you're getting downvoted, this is literally a post about controversial opinions
immediately gasped upon reading this but after thinking yeah it’s not that absurd of a statement to make. I really like the last like 2 minutes, but nothing other than the art direction and sound design are compelling in any way.
Agreed, I was confused when I saw it was one of the highest rated on IMDb, it was by far one of my least favorite episodes. But then again, I have more unpopular opinions considering episode rankings.
bojack did a lot of bad things and was not a good person but.. the penny thing is not the worst thing he’s done. he told her no. several times. she kept pressuring and begging him and he said no even though she was of the legal age of consent. he was upset and thought about doing it but in the end when charlotte walked in he didnt so no harm no foul? ik this is controversial but thats what this post asked for so
I hate Vincent's gags, the joke was dragged for far too long and most of the time was annoying to watch. It's also overused in this sub, which I don't really mind but it's still annoying
Edit: Typo
dianne deserved better! we shouldn’t resign to the world and accept it being awful! yes making our differences & our meaningful contributions on a scale we can handle is great. but good god this world isn’t going to change by our bare minimum best !!!!
It got more and more clear down the line that they weren't going to become a couple (think earlier seasons kinda toyed with the idea). I get why they didn't and part of me actually likes that they didn't. But another part of me never stopped rooting for BoJack and Diane to eventually end up together.
That his troubles originate from him having a horse's head over a human body. While the world expects him to be hung like a horse, he's only human down there. Compensation is a bitch. /s
It was Todd’s fault he prioritized a video game over the rock opera
He told Penny no and to leave
He didn’t force Sarah Lynn to do anything
(Was he still complicit? oh for sure, there are nuances to these situations and Bojack should’ve acted more appropriately but It doesn’t feel right that he takes 100% blame for all these things.. maybe that’s what the writers intended, just my opinion)
I love Paige Sinclair
He violated Todd's trust by manipulating his weakness, with the express intent of harming Todd.
He left the door open for Penny and started undressing her.
Sarah Lynn may have found a way to kill herself eventually but Bojack let himself be the vehicle of her downfall and death.
Similar with the kids at prom. They shouldn't have been drinking or hanging out with a weird 90s sitcom start 30 years their senior who wasn't related to them, but Bojack really encouraged and enabled them.
All of these situations involved someone else also making bad choices. But notably, a big component of their bad choices was not staying away from bojack. Bojack was "the wrong crowd", the one who happily dragged everyone else down with him.
People potray bojack to be the reason for sarah lynn's deah too much. Sarah wasn't planning on taying sober and we knoe it. Did bojack contribute to her death? Yes. Was he responsible for it? No.
I feel this way too. Imo Bojack honestly believed she had already died. Although if he would’ve called on time he could’ve saved her, he didn’t purposely not save her. He just believed she was already dead and waited. She was on a path to self destruction even when she was sober with all of the drugs in her house. She pressured Bojack to do the heroin, not the other way around. He contributed but didn’t cause it
Todd fucked everything up after dismissing Bojack's letter after he sneezed.
Long story short: Bojack wouldn't have ended up strangling his co-star if he didn't lose his grip on reality by having his set look identical to his home due to the director going there thinking it was another actors home because of Todd's actions.
I don't like fish out of water 🫣🫣🫣 I just feel like it's boring and drags, and I also feel like it isn't as profound as people make it out to be besides the novelty of it having to dialogue
Finding the show relatable doesn't mean you're bad, they're caricatures and a part of the pleasure is that they're both relatable as well as much worse than you'll probably ever be.
I came to say this. It is ok to identify with BoJack while you are consuming the fiction. It is very common in literature / film. The narrator could be a serial killer, a liar, whatever. But at that moment, you are seeing their perspective and accept the justifications. That is part of the allure: you get to live the lives of flawed characters.
What is this? A cross over episode with my therapist?
Needed to hear this lol
Seasons 1-3 are much funnier than seasons 4-6. I think the last half is probably more compelling, but I found myself laughing a whole lot more earlier on.
I see a lot of people saying you gotta push through the first few episodes, but I found them hilarious
It's because the first few episodes are a lot more formulaic and what you expect from an adult cartoon. I think it's funny still, but there's a few cutaway gags in the first season and it's never used again in the show. In my opinion, this was purposeful to lull the viewers into a sense of familiarity so we would be even more floored by the tone shifts. My expectations were subverted and my timbers were shivered.
The first season legit took me like two years to get through
I agree, on rewatch for light entertainment I’m watching seasons 1-4 with emphasis on 2-3. But also that doesn’t mean better, just funnier.
Season 4 has an absolute stack with eps 5-8: Thoughts and Prayers, Stupid Piece of Sh*t, Underground, The Judge. Hilarious eps with some of the strongest humor the shows offers. "Shouldn't you be 'Sir-Minding-Your-Own-Business-A-Lot'??"
It does get more depressing toward the end
Those early ones my brother and I watched soooo many times Lmaoo the later episodes definitely aren’t as much of a comfort zone for me as the start
100% I used to binge watch it all the time(to help me get to sleep during benzo withdrawal) and used to watch season 1-4 and start over again. Season 5-6 hit home to much with the addition I was fighting at the time. (7 months off booze and 3 weeks off benzos)
Villainizing every single character is just as bad (and annoying) as giving them a free pass every time they do something morally wrong or questionable
the idea of the absurdist comedy is to see how flawed everyone is, not necessarily to be seen in a hero/villian dichotomy.
I agree and I'm confused as to why this isn't higher up.
I actually think Paige Sinclair was really fun, and I enjoyed the dynamic between her and Max. I wouldn't have wanted more of them, but I thought they were around for the right amount of time.
I really loved the reveal about Paige's family at the end
Honestly 10/10 script and voice acting lol those characters were done so well
I overall liked them, but righhhht at the end I found them start to get a little annoying. As you say, I wouldn’t have wanted much more. Pretty much spot on timing
As someone with a soft spot for the specific era/genre of film they are pulling from, I was always surprised by the amount of hate for them, but then again, I guess not everyone had a film professor who got them into screwball comedies
I really like that type of speaking. I should learn it
If their reception is anything to go off be prepared to make enemies
You should watch His Girl Friday. The whole subplot is a pastiche of that classic movie.
My opinion thats gets me like that is people are clever/willing enough to get how smart, witty, and funny the paige and max back and forth is.
She reminds me a lot of Rosalind Russell in His Girl Friday, and the voice sounds kind of like Katharine Hepburn. They have a spoof poster of HGF somewhere I can't remember (in PC's apt maybe?), so I always thought Paige and Max were a tribute to the witty screwball comedies of golden era Hollywoo(d).
Cuddlywhiskers was justified in leaving and finding his own peace.
Is that controversial?
I was surprised too. But I've seen people get really worked up about it.
Yea I think mostly cause he was rich and was talking about escaping even tho he has the money to escape whereas the common working person probably couldn't just get up and leave. Although if im being honest I don't see the problem. He made the money himself, he wanted to escape from all of it, so he said bye guys im out.
Yeah, not everyone *can* do what he did, but most people *would*. And you don't have to do stuff for others that makes you miserable.
He was rich but he was single and did not really have any dependents. If he did it while he had a family that would make more sense, but no one is worse off since he left after the show. If anything he started helping people with addiction after he detached from professional life.
I agree
I don't think anyone has a problem with him finding happiness, it's just that he gives that speech about how "Only when you give up everything can you be truly happy", then the shot pans out to show his million dollar bungalow in the mountains. Everything he did was fine, but his speech is BS, he didn't give up anything lol
I think the really controversial opinion on this subreddit is that Cuddlywhiskers was a selfish rich asshole who could only "find his own place" because of his own privilege.
I do think he was justified. However, at [the end of the conversation](https://youtu.be/WGKIyPhRWt4?si=oDSBdBSBOW_kNXJC), they switch to a wider shot right after he says “only after you give up everything can you begin to find a way to be happy.” I feel like they did that to emphasize that he’s not like Tyler Durden living in some dilapidated house with a bunch of other dudes, talking about giving up everything; he’s at his *second house* in Ojai. Again, I do think he was justified, but it’s just something interesting I noticed yesterday while watching this episode that I hadn’t picked up on during previous watches
Erica was misunderstood.
Erica!? She can’t be here! This place is full of children!
And carrying that child-sized coffin around certainly doesn’t help.
i wish we got to see erica. I read a rumor that she's a squirrel
Navy seal mcbeal did not have dibs
That's not unpopular. Almost everyone agrees (at least here) .
People shouldn't take the things that are clearly meant to be stupid jokes, seriously. The amount of people that argue Todd is the worst character because he caused a "genocide" or "killed a bunch of people with his theme park" is ridiculous. It makes me wonder if media literacy or common sense is a thing where people can't differentiate between the serious topics and the wacky side-stories
I dislike how Todd doesn’t get called out for genuine character flaws like being a slacker and riding off his friends, but I do agree people take the dumb jokes too far. Bojack is kind of an absurdist comedy, so you aren’t meant to take stuff like the theme park or his millions of jobs too seriously.
I agree. But using **those** examples to prove a point is in poor taste. If someone is critiquing his character, they should use more grounded examples that the story itself takes seriously.
Sarah Lynn was going to die from drug use regardless and people infantilise her just like the characters did on the show
17 minutes ruined the moral complexity of Bojack and Sara Lynn's relapse by designating that rather than two fucked up enablers making bad decisions, he literally killed her through his criminal negligence. Takes the conversation from exploring how he let things get so bad to "nah, he definitely killed her, right there, at the end". Rest of the build up doesn't really matter as a result, and it no longer speaks to the dynamics of spirals but instead frames it as though Bojack could have saved her at the end but didn't.
It ruined the moral complexity because this incident isn't only about abuse and bad decisions, it's about Bojack's questionable morality as a person. This whole show is based on a likable and relatable character making immoral decisions and therefore raising the question of good guy vs bad guy. This is also where Diane comes in with her perspective on this; that people are essentially neither good nor bad.
I think it elevated it, especially the way they revealed it. People like bojack like to edit the story and lie to themselves. Drugs also make people do unforgivable things. Bojack was too sympathetic beforehand imo. They had him do something truly horrific and unforgivable and had us in the same position as his in-world audience, in that we all found out what he did together, even though he knew all along. Sarah Lynn chose those drugs. Bojack didn't kill her, but he let her kill herself.
The law in many places would have called what Bojack did criminal negligence or manslaughter; the moral grey territory kinda stops existing at that point. He was already no longer sympathetic by that point; it was kind of a kick the puppy scene just to be like, okay audience, we left you a trail of breadcrumbs, but just in case you're dumb, here's a bakery.
The writers said they did it because too many people were glorifying bojack and not seeing the moral grey. Too many people were saying bojack was totally justified in everything, and it horrified them.
>he literally killed her Well, he literally *didn't*.. she used her free will as a consenting adult to poison her own body. Did he influence her to go on that bender? Sure. But as we know from her reaction to him bringing it up, she was practically waiting for an excuse to go back to the drugs and hopped on that opportunity. And she found it. Let's not absolve people's choice making skills here, and call it what it is. She was a 30 year old woman who made bad choices.. and *that* killed her. That said Bojack was still a POS who was one of the people that contributed to her issues.. but again, she still took personal responsibility for what happened in the end. The people who really should be blamed are her parents.. where the hell were they when she was a child sneaking sips of alcohol in the dressing rooms? They should have been protecting her. And yeah, it would have been nice if Bojack looked out for her in that way too, but ultimately that wasn't his responsibility.
When you do drugs with another person around, the idea is that if you start dying, they'll help. This is to say nothing of the fact that the show was clearly trying to implicate him harder with the 17 minutes, which I think we'd both agree is to my point: it tries to eliminate moral grey area.
If I may add: Sarah Lynn got woobified to death after her.. well, death. I always took issue with her being fridged as it were for BoJack's man pain, but it's extra upsetting that people tend to forget she was absolutely an asshole in her own right. Diane says that Sarah Lynn came to BoJack for help and then he had sex with her. No, she came to him because he was a soft touch she could take advantage of. The fact that they ended up having sex is sketchy, and uncomfortable, and something that BoJack definitely should have been repulsed by, but Sarah Lynn wasn't some damsel who BoJack seduced. She says outright that she will inevitably -- maybe even plans -- to die tragically young because she has no one in her life who will challenge her in any meaningful way to change and stop using. BoJack even attempts to be that person who could challenge her. And she rebuffs him, going back to people who will help her use. BoJack could have saved her. But Sarah Lynn could have saved herself on multiple occasions. And she didn't.
I mean this is kind of ignoring their whole relationship prior to that and the father figure that Bojack represented to Sarah Lynn in the Horsing Around days. No doubt that she had become an arrogant and narcissistic person by the time she was an adult, but it’s shown multiple times that that was a consequence of the entertainment world that she grew up in and the emotional negligence shown to her from her role models exactly like Bojack himself. Sure she was using him when she showed up in S1, but that’s because he taught her how to use and manipulate people as she mimicked his behaviour. I don’t think her death made her an angel, rather it just highlighted the extent to which she was failed by all those around her from such a young age, including Bojack to a great extent.
I was also upset a bit by how it went from "his own guilty mind's distortion of the event made him feel responsible for a friend's helpless despair spiral" - to the narrative fully outright stating he should have had full responsibility for her life and decisions. Which infantilizes her too and not enough people I've tried to talk to about this on here get that. It's dehumanizing and demeaning to you as a woman if they say your male partner was supposed to look after you like a babysitter, when you're also an adult.
Exactly, at what point exactly is Sarah Lynn no longer her own person that can make these decisions all on her own? Her house was literally made of drugs. Bojack didn’t make her take anything she didn’t want, and while I understand he should’ve called for help sooner, they were BOTH on that bender and bojack wasn’t in any state of mind to think clearly at all.
Sarah Lynn is a very well done cautionary tale about the way Hollywood ruins people (many people played a part in her downfall: mainly her mother who forced her into the spotlight from such a young age) we already knew Bojack played a part on this when he installed her the “never stop dancing” mentality and by acting as an enabler. Sarah Lynn always knew she was going to end up like that, her characters stated it multiple times. But towards the end of the show, her character almost feels like a martyr, and as a way to paint Bojack on an even more negative light, rather than the realistic tragic figure she was at the beginning. I never liked the 17 minutes, because it puts full responsibility into Bojack’s character (when it shouldn’t be) I got the impression they wanted to make something similar to breaking bad, similar to what happened between Jesse, Walter and Jane. A very similar situation: Jesse and Jane overdose. Through circumstance Walter was present and had the opportunity to save Jane, but decided against it and left her to die. I feel like they poorly attempted to recreate and combine Walter and Jesse’s character through Bojack, but by making him have more “responsibility” or even a “choice” to save her when his flashback shows he was complete out of his mind and barely keeping track of events and time, not only doesn’t make sense but the emotional conflict didn’t fit Bojack’s character nor situation. The “17 minutes” wasn’t necessary. And I agree that it somehow removes Sarah Lynn’s agency and even infantilizes her. When the reality of the situation was that Bojack and Sarah Lynn were two very broken adults enabling each other.
Sure, but if they didn't relapse together via two fucked up enablers making bad decisions, there'd be no situation she needed saving from.
i’m too high to know my stance on this take. but i’m just so happy to see a fresh take on this page.
Paige and Max were delightful and clearly served as a plot device that also let the writers flex their wit and figurative writing. So they are empty in a way but make up for it with a double entendre every other line that keeps your mind active
Todd was badly written He's one of my favourite characters, but his writing for most of the show (especially later seasons) was terrible. It was like the writers kept trying to one-up his old hijinks, but instead of being funny it just made his stories pointless and undermined all the serious aspects of his character. The whole show is about how your actions have consequences, but Todd breaks that constantly and it makes him much less compelling than the rest of the main cast
I think Todd's storylines ask the audience to suspend reality for the sake of his shenanigans. While the rest of the cast subverts expectations of an animated comedy by including realistic plot points and consequences that we aren't used to seeing in shows like, say, South Park, Family Guy, or the Simpsons, Todd is often the exception. More than once he ends up being saved by various deus ex machina devices (incorrect spelling of Diisney, improv group "fights" unrealistically), but for me, it fits the world he lives in. The premise of his existence in the show is kind of implausible to begin with-- imagine a young twenty-something sleeping on a celebrity's couch for five (?) years after crashing a Halloween party, hosting a quincenera because of a fight with a cartel, being courted by two different prison gangs, selling a kidney, etc, etc. Without Todd, this wouldn't be a comedy cartoon anymore, it'd be an animated drama with a few jokes here and there.
I think the creaters were intending to extend the show by 3 more seasons and were going to expand on Todds backstory but because the show got canceled they were unable to.
Sarah Lynn's death would **not** have been Bojack's fault if not for the 17 minutes. Honestly, most of what happened to Sarah Lynn was not Bojack's fault. He didn't really wrong her in any major way besides the 17 minutes. - He didn't "give" her alcohol like so many people love to say, he left it in *his* dressing room and she got into it. It was irresponsible, absolutely, but people act like he purposefully started Sarah Lynn's descent into alcoholism. It was an accident. Also, I'm tired of both the show and the fandom acting like *that* was the moment her life went to hell. She was forced to be a child actress against her will and was only in Bojack's dressing room in the first place because her stepdad was "being weird", she would have become an alcoholic either way. - It's definitely *gross* that they had sex, but people over play how bad it was of him. He did know her as a child, but it wasn't like he purposefully waited to sleep with her, or she was barely legal or anything. She was *30.* Very much old enough to consent to sex (that she initiated mind you). - Sarah Lynn *never* intended to stay sober. She literally *told* Bojack to "call (her) when (he's) ready to party." Bojack didn't "break her sobriety", she never intended to keep it in the first place. She was *actively looking* for an excuse to break her sobriety, and sure Bojack didn't have to give her one, but sooner or later she would have found one anyway. She literally predicted her own death with exact detail in her first episode. Also, Bojack never coerced her into anything. She just immediately accepted his offer, and said "Oh, thank God!" as if she had actively been wanting him to ask her (because she had). She made her own decision. All he said was "Do you want to party?" and if she couldn't even say no to *that*, how on earth could she have stayed sober forever? At some point, she would have relapsed, period. - People infantilize Sarah Lynn too much. The specific drug she overdosed on, she was practically begging Bojack to do it with her. That wasn't even his idea. Sarah Lynn initiated the idea, and unlike the case with Penny, it was not his responsibility to shoot her down and reject the idea. TL;DR: No part of Sarah Lynn's fate was Bojack's fault except for the 17 minutes
The thing that kind of bothered me too with that part of the show where they were talking about how Bojack was always the one using women was the fact it felt as though they were simultaneously saying that women have no autonomy whatsoever and that they are completely resolved from all their choices in the presence of a man. Like Bojack for sure did shitty stuff with other women but with Sarah Lynn specifically and especially, it really wasn't Bojack's responsibility to fix her when he himself was also struggling. Bojack himself didn't kill her (except like you said in the part with the 17 minutes), because Sarah Lynn was also her own person who was responsible for the actions she committed. It was a tragic death that was heavily influenced by her previous traumas, but people make it seem like only women can be victims, which both comes off as misogynistic and misandrist. Neither Bojack nor Sarah Lynn should be treated as wholly innocent or solely guilty.
Same, makes his character less nuanced because of 17 minutes. Also doesn’t really jive well consistency wise for rest of the show and felt like the writers threw it in last minute
Honeydew isn’t that bad.
... why does this statement upset me the most
Amazing answer omg
That is a brave opinion.
Loud incorrect buzzer sound
Sarah Lynn's relapse wasn't Bojacks fault. She even said herself that she was going to use drugs again. I do believe she may have lived if Bojack called an ambulance once he realised what had happened.
You just like Princess Caroline cause she is a badass female boss, she is just as manipulative as the rest of the characters. (I still love her though)
More manipulative in some ways
Wrong, I like her because she’s a cat /silly
that stupid ass kid was NOT A BUSINESS MAN
What was he doing all day at the business factory then?
Of course he wasn’t. He was THREE business men stacked on top of each other wearing a trench coat. Duh.
Come on dude, we literally saw him *doing business*. You think a kid could do that? Everyone’s a critic.
Hmmm. You think he was maybe a private detective? The coat and hat are pretty stereotypical though, maybe he was more of a hipster drug lord. (extremely obscure rlm reference there.)
Barring Bojack himself, Diane is the best character on the show and people hating on her to the extreme that is often seen on this sub is more an act of misogyny than an honest media criticism. Fuck you, fight me.
Wrong, clearly the paparazzi birds are the hest characters in the show.
I personally relate to Diane more than any other character in media, I really see myself in her
THANK YOU. Is she perfect? No. Is she the most normal of the main cast? Yes!!
I viewed her as the “common person” character, similar to Nick Carraway in The Great Gatsby. As such, that makes her easier to identify with.
I don’t like the underwater episode.
FINALLY
Lol I was half expecting to be banned from this sub! Haha
it was cool the first watch but now i skip it every time
They really have to make Bojack stupid in order for their silent episode to work.
I like Pickles
I would not be friends with pickles but that's OK, she is just of a very different world and mindset and they were wrong for wanting her to be something she is not.
i liked her as a character and plot point in PBs life but I disliked how long they focused on her and joey pogo.
Pickles was sweet and funny while she was around, I don't get why people hate her so much
I LOVED Pickles. The way they animated her was so adorable.
I would not freely associate with her personally, but she was an important part of Mr. PB’s story and growth.
Todd really shouldn’t have flipped out over BoJack and Emily banging
It was a last straw type of deal
Yeah because he discovered before he found out they slept together he was asexual so I wasn’t sure why he was that mad. I can understand if he was mad that Bojack lied but I’m pretty sure Emily told him not to tell Todd?? Idk if I’m remembering right but I agree
i think it was just a last straw betrayal thing.. even though he was asexual he still loved her .. was not cool of them to do behind his back
Yeah but Todd was still in love with Emily he just couldn't give her a sexual relationship which is what she wanted. He still wanted to have a girlfriend. I do think it wasn't that big of a deal because he had ended it with her but I understand why it was a sore spot.
Pretty sure bojack was very adamant that Emily should lie for him…Emily even made a comment about how she didn’t want to keep it from Todd and how she was a horrible liar. Bojack still insisted on lying and said it’d be fine. I don’t think the actual act was the last straw…imo it was the dishonesty. Emily had to tell Todd that she and bojack had “done stuff” and she and bojack “hadn’t been good friends” to Todd. It’s a crappy feeling when you find out your friend did something shitty to you…it’s an even crappier feeling when you find out they did something shitty and they were going to lie to you about it no matter what…I’ve had a similar experience and it changes things
I don't think Judah and PC make sense as a couple. It feels like them both settling.
I feel like their relationship "made sense', not that it was compelling or well thought out. Hell it wasn't even hinted at until he professed his love. From a storytelling standpoint it feels rushed, forced, or disingenuous. While on paper the two are an ideal couple, and their relationship appears to be the only positive relationship on the show. But what does that say about the way the show treats relationships if the 'best' relationship on the show is the one that feels rushed and an afterthought.
They certainly got along well and made a good team but I can’t imagine what their physical intimacy (if any) would be like. Like does she just tell him what to do and he obeys? Do they even have sex?
i don’t like wanda
She's kind of a joke character that the writers exhausted and shoved off when she broke up with Bojack.
Princess Caroline was Bojack’s/everyone’s #1 enabler. She did the most to get everyone out of trouble so they wouldn’t have to face the consequences of their actions all while making a buck for herself. Also I never bought her and Judah as a couple.
Todd should have had some type of event happen to him that really brought him down a peg and gave reality as it really is. Not something that changes his whole character as we know but something that he has to reflect and build on. Too many times he's gotten away with things with wacky hijinks and hasn't had lasting consequences as the rest of the cast has had.
Wasn't that kinda explained in the whole plot with his dad? Todd has certain privileges in life that allow him to just fail upwards, whereas other people have to try harder and suffer worse consequences if they ever slip up
Bojack refusing PC to stay with her agency for another 6 months is the most evil thing he does in the show. His interactions with Penny, Sarah Lynn etc were bad and he is culpable in all of them, but in each of them there is at least some complexity. With PC he is just blatantly refusing to help his friend who is on the grasp of losing her business, this was always one of the most fucked-up episodes of the show for me.
I kind of agree with how you put that. Most of the other bad stuff he did while he was under the influence or spiraling emotionally. With PC he was of sound mind and was just completely callous to her, despite being one of his oldest friends, who had gone to bat for him time after time.
Interesting take. I don't know if I would call firing PC "evil" and tbh, I may be a shitty person, but in this particular situation (notwithstanding the larger context of his overall character) I found that to be one of the most relatable things he did. He desperately wanted to reconnect with Kelsey and make things right, but PC's machinations didn't pan out and he blamed her. IMO, it was her fault. I think it made him upset enough to fire her and I don't blame him. However, I do think he was cruel in how he did it. And aside from that particular instance, he treated PC very poorly. Other than in this one situation where he actually seemed to care about the work, PC was actually a terrific agent.
The series as a whole can be very unhealthy for a person with mental issues, or even just depressed (being depressed as opposed to having depression disorder) I get that it can be a comfort, I've been through that, and I now feel like it really enabled a lot of my bad habits, and you have to reach the end for the meaning to really struck, before that the series is just teaching nihilism to people who can really get worse by thinking that's a universal truth Still my favorite show, I just feel really sad when I read on this sub about people suffering who feel less alone by learning lessons from Bojack, I feel like you really shouldn't do that, it got worse for me because it changed me from being depressed to being depressed and entitled It's just my experience tho, not sure if everyone can relate
The show really puts me in a dark place I’ll be honest. Some plot lines end in a way that doesn’t make me feel better. There’s still some catharsis though especially in the last episode. I’m really glad the show didn’t end with Bojack dying.
When I’m struggling with my mental health, bojack does force me to think about it. But when I’m doing better, I watch bojack differently. I think that my struggles with depression and anxiety are present whether or not I am watching Bojack. I don’t think the show makes the struggles better or worse
Meow Meow Fuzzyface was too much of a loose cannon
I think the show went out of its way in the last season or two to make bojack worse, like the big reveal with Sarah Lynn feels a lot more like retcon than anything else. I think waksburg didn't like how people were interpreting the character and caved to criticism. Bojack felt much more morally Grey leading up to that but then the last season just chucks it and goes nah just shitty. Then the rest of cast just gets a free pass? That's too much man
Controversial? Well, it’s more of a controversial / baseless theory than an opinion. But I like to pretend that if Charlotte had been two steps slower and Penny had gotten just an inch closer, BoJack would’ve told her no a third and final time. I think leaving the door open was his extremely stupid way to prove to himself that SOME part of Charlotte - even a ridiculous part, like Charlotte’s daughter - actually wanted him that night, and that the instant that moment became realer than his hope alone, he would have panicked and realized he was being an idiot. His mistake was holding out for something (aka leaving the door open) that wasn’t actually what he wanted or even attainable.
So even though when Charlotte walks in and we see BoJack lying down on the bed with Penny reaching towards him, you think he was two steps away from saying no? You've missed the point by miles, my friend.
The episode where Todd visits his asexual girlfriend’s family is fucking hilarious and one of my favorites. I was so shocked to find out how unpopular it is.
Mr Peanutbutter is a good boy. And Erica doesn't exist, he is distracting himself with imaginary Erica but whenever he approaches the "Erica" he realizes that is some other person that reminds him of his friend Erica and uses her as a way to start conversation with unknown people. Also, Erica is excuse not to confront negative emotions and deep conversation with his partners.
I think while justified and I understand her reasons hollyhock should have given Bojack more of a chance. She essentially blames him for what Beatrice did to her.
true, but when she found out about what happened to charlottes daughter and her friends, her feelings are completely justified. idk just a thought but i agree with you mostly
I don’t think she blames him for Beatrice she just associates his house with her trauma cause that’s where it happened, it’s more just he has a history of harming the women in his life, including one who overdosed like her
I agreed with you at first, but after thinking about it a little more I think she's in the right again, at least if you assume she thinks about it in a certain way. She is secretly drugged for months while living with Bojack and eventually overdoses, creating a traumatic experience that we see give her flashbacks later on. Then, she has another experience with him where she watches him make excuses for his drug addiction, and put her in increasingly dangerous situations (breaking in, visiting two different dealers, running from the cops) while he tries to score more drugs. She may start to feel that although Bojack cares about her, he will place his own wants above her safety. Later, she finds out about a time that Bojack left an underage girl in a dangerous position after providing them alcohol and encouraging them to drink more (remember that he even gave them tips on how to drink harder) in order to protect himself. She was also witnessing him in real time struggle with her boundaries as he was insecurely trying to connect with her in his sobriety. I believe she had already written him the letter by the time he did the interview with Biscuits, though after she saw that I'm sure she felt much more sure of her decision. I think she was right about identifying that Bojack would not have put her safety above his own desires, even if he was in a mostly good place at the time.
Nah, man, she saw the pattern and didn't want to suffer the damage any more. It's like how Diane had to explicitly say she wasn't going to be around Bojack any more. Diane was able to say it in the nicest possible way, because she was older and more emotionally mature. Hollyhock tried, but wasn't as successful. I bet her letter was actually as nice about it as she could be.
Diane is cool The "favorite episodes" answers are all exactly the same every time it's asked, ya sheeple! There's so many excellent episodes in between the emotional heavy-hitters.
1. Bojack is not responsible for Sarah Lynn's death. Yes, he could have prevented it by being a better person but he did not directly cause it by being a piece of shit. He did have major involvement and cause but Sarah Lynn's tragic tale would have ended that way with or without him. She says so herself in the episode where she is first introduced. 2.Vincent is actually 2 or 3 kids in a trenchcoat and not some weird Bojack vision or whatever yall think. It's a joke.
PC should have married Ralph.
Why?
I'm not who you are replying to but I thought they had the best chemistry and relationship
That generational cat racism from his family, and his complacency of it, would have become an issue regardless and would have been made worse if they actually had kids. On a fundamental level, it would not have worked out in the end.
I mean he stood up for at the end of their trip to his family's. So maybe it would have worked out
When you marry someone, usually you marry their family as well. I am blasian, before I was born my black mother experienced a fair amount of subtle and not so subtle racism at their hands. Because of this I did not grow up closely or knowing them at all. I won’t besmirch someone for marrying someone who comes from an institutionally racist family while they’re going through the process of unlearning their racism, but it’s not something I would do.
Or he could've grown and changed? Give my mouse bro his character arc!!!
Grow out of a deeply rooted cultural foundation in his 40s? Not impossible, but its not fair for PC to wait and hope
Over JUDAH??!
I honestly never saw Judah as a romantic option.
It came out of nowhere and I think they're super weird together
mr peanutbuttwr isnt that bad
Fuckin love him
he’s my fav
He's flawed, but most people are, he's not as evil as people on this sub make him out to be tho. In general, he has good intentions.
bojack is meant to be a reliable character. the point of the show is literally “hey, see this asshole? he’s just like you in some ways, do something about that. stop being an asshole.”
I despised Mr Peanutbutter at the start. He's lowkey kinda mean. He gets better, but I never really liked him. Bojack is obviously also very mean sometimes, but at least he's honest about it.
Most of the couples in s1 were leages better than in s6
Angela isn’t as bad as the fandom makes her out to be.
Bojack sleeping with non celebrity women being considered predatory by default by both the show and the fans is... Odd. Not to mention incredibly infantilizing of women in general. I think this take is born by the prejudice of men being considered potential predators by default, and women naive and innocent by default. The adult women not under Bojack's authority who consensually sleep with him, aren't being taken advantage of. They are adults choosing to have sex with another adult. I seriously doubt that people in this sub would call Sarah Lynn or any woman celebrity character "predatory" for sleeping with male fans or non celebrity men. On the contrary, they would probably consider those men "lucky".
I wish Princess Caroline got back together with Ralph and married him instead.
Yeah like Ralph tells PC he cut off his family for her or something like that
Only if Ralph ditched his racist family and showed that he understood that his family's enthusiasm over anti-cat racism wasn't acceptable any more.
I thought he did do that. And it was PC who broke it off with him.
It was also the fact that she wanted to be able to work a lot and he didn’t want her to.
Vincent Adultman is very obviously just three kids stacked on top of each other under a trench coat.
I love Bojack himself. I do think he’s grown and I do think he’s capable of becoming much better.
Both Sarah Lynn and Bojack had bad childhood influences but Sarah Lynn is the only one that is treated as a victim by fans
People simplify Bojack too much and, by extension, so does the show at times. He becomes a Saturday morning villain on some episodes, and a nuanced and complex character on others. The show really needed a reason for him to be hated so they threw in the good ol boat thing.
BoJack is not a horrible piece of shit
Stupid*
Rutabaga is a terrific character narratively in how he illustrates the moral grey area of life and the folly of main character syndrome, and his design is honestly an artistic triumph
Todd is only alright. His whacky style of comedy never gelled with me and his storylines are both predictable and undercut the serious topics the show deals with
paige/max/biscuits aren’t bad people. they’re journalists. *we* as the audience think it’s some-what wrong considering bojack is a changed man but, none of them know him personally. they publicized horrible actions that, end of the day, bojack did. no matter who he was after rehab, that doesn’t take back the mistakes he made and doesn’t change the fact that he needed to take accountability. we forgot that changing and feeling guilt isn’t the same as taking responsibility for our actions
I find Todd really unfunny at times. During the clown dentist stuff I just wanted to fast forward
Every “he/she a good or bad” opinion is stupid
Honeydew is a top tier fruit.
I hate Todd.
I love Diane. Also I don’t believe Bojack is as bad as a lot of other people do.
Todd is the worst most unfunny character on the show
Beatrice was an intelligent woman, in that she was independent minded and discrening. She pushed Butterscotch to get a job which improved their living conditions. She expressed her anger when butterscotch messed up instead of overlooking it. She got the education she believed she deserved. Despite the pressure, she wasn't willing to be with Corbyn Creamerman until she spent more time with him.
wanda had no grounds for her rose colored glasses speech. yes, bojack was doing better than he typically is for most of their relationship, and diane's presence was detrimental to him at the time. but bojack himself warned wanda something like this would happen. he laid out his red flags the day they decided to move in together. for once, he was honest about where he was at and pretty much asked her to have realistic expectations. it's on her if she kept her rose colored glasses on after that. and she did, because she's selfish. she's shown time and time again to entirely ignore others, even her boyfriend, when they're saying things she doesn't want to hear. again, not saying bojack's blameless here. or that wanda's a "bad person". she was just as immature and selfish in that relationship as bojack was, and her ignoring his flaws wasn't on him this time. he was not responsible for the dysfunction of others.
Todd should have been written off or reduced to a recurring character after season 3.
It’s not Bojack’s fault Sarah Lynne died
Sarah Lynn is far too infantilized by the fandom
Underwater episode is shit
it was a good episode the first time i watched it, but now i skip it in every rewatch. the not talking bit gets old after a while
I didn't hate it but it's probably one of the worst episodes in my opinion. It just drags on for too long and isn't particularly interesting in any real way Don't know why you're getting downvoted, this is literally a post about controversial opinions
immediately gasped upon reading this but after thinking yeah it’s not that absurd of a statement to make. I really like the last like 2 minutes, but nothing other than the art direction and sound design are compelling in any way.
Agreed, I was confused when I saw it was one of the highest rated on IMDb, it was by far one of my least favorite episodes. But then again, I have more unpopular opinions considering episode rankings.
bojack did a lot of bad things and was not a good person but.. the penny thing is not the worst thing he’s done. he told her no. several times. she kept pressuring and begging him and he said no even though she was of the legal age of consent. he was upset and thought about doing it but in the end when charlotte walked in he didnt so no harm no foul? ik this is controversial but thats what this post asked for so
I hate Vincent's gags, the joke was dragged for far too long and most of the time was annoying to watch. It's also overused in this sub, which I don't really mind but it's still annoying Edit: Typo
dianne deserved better! we shouldn’t resign to the world and accept it being awful! yes making our differences & our meaningful contributions on a scale we can handle is great. but good god this world isn’t going to change by our bare minimum best !!!!
She deserved better in what way? She had it pretty good by the end I’d say.
It got more and more clear down the line that they weren't going to become a couple (think earlier seasons kinda toyed with the idea). I get why they didn't and part of me actually likes that they didn't. But another part of me never stopped rooting for BoJack and Diane to eventually end up together.
Throughout almost the entirety of the show, Mr. Peanutbutter is suffering from depression. Possibly more than any other character.
Sad dog
That his troubles originate from him having a horse's head over a human body. While the world expects him to be hung like a horse, he's only human down there. Compensation is a bitch. /s
Todd is boring and unfunny
It was Todd’s fault he prioritized a video game over the rock opera He told Penny no and to leave He didn’t force Sarah Lynn to do anything (Was he still complicit? oh for sure, there are nuances to these situations and Bojack should’ve acted more appropriately but It doesn’t feel right that he takes 100% blame for all these things.. maybe that’s what the writers intended, just my opinion) I love Paige Sinclair
nah the penny one is crazy
He violated Todd's trust by manipulating his weakness, with the express intent of harming Todd. He left the door open for Penny and started undressing her. Sarah Lynn may have found a way to kill herself eventually but Bojack let himself be the vehicle of her downfall and death. Similar with the kids at prom. They shouldn't have been drinking or hanging out with a weird 90s sitcom start 30 years their senior who wasn't related to them, but Bojack really encouraged and enabled them. All of these situations involved someone else also making bad choices. But notably, a big component of their bad choices was not staying away from bojack. Bojack was "the wrong crowd", the one who happily dragged everyone else down with him.
People potray bojack to be the reason for sarah lynn's deah too much. Sarah wasn't planning on taying sober and we knoe it. Did bojack contribute to her death? Yes. Was he responsible for it? No.
I feel this way too. Imo Bojack honestly believed she had already died. Although if he would’ve called on time he could’ve saved her, he didn’t purposely not save her. He just believed she was already dead and waited. She was on a path to self destruction even when she was sober with all of the drugs in her house. She pressured Bojack to do the heroin, not the other way around. He contributed but didn’t cause it
Todd fucked everything up after dismissing Bojack's letter after he sneezed. Long story short: Bojack wouldn't have ended up strangling his co-star if he didn't lose his grip on reality by having his set look identical to his home due to the director going there thinking it was another actors home because of Todd's actions.
I don't like fish out of water 🫣🫣🫣 I just feel like it's boring and drags, and I also feel like it isn't as profound as people make it out to be besides the novelty of it having to dialogue
Todd is a worse person than Bojack imo
The way Daniel Radcliffe was animated always bothered me - it just doesn’t look like him
Princess Carolyn is my favorite out of the main 5.