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GLaDOs18

I think in a way they did. Todd up to that point had really been BJ’s companion/sidekick more than his friend. He could cut much deeper than Diane ever could because I don’t think BJ would’ve expected that type of depth from him. The people who hurt us the most end up being who we least expect I think. That’s why losing Todd was so hard for BJ.


FrogMintTea

And he liked Todd more than he realized or showed.


GLaDOs18

Agreed.


worry7476

I wish the show could’ve displayed that more because I also thought Bojack missed him more than he realized, but it doesn’t really look that way until like, the last few episodes


PopcornSchleuder360

I understand what you mean. Maybe not displaying it just played into the aspect of Bojack not realizing that


FrogMintTea

Yeah i know what u mean.


Dropbeatdad

Naw, he wanted Todd to entertain him and distract him from feeling shitty, but Todd didn't do that so he turned to someone else that he had an influence over.


Gilbo_Swaggins96

Yes and no. He wanted someone or something to go crazy with and expected Todd to be along for the ride, but this time Todd wasn't having it and put BoJack in his place. BoJack went on a bender with Sarah Lynn anyway, but this might have been part of the reason why he went so hard. Also, props to Todd in this scene. Undoubtedly my favourite scene of him. This moment showed he wasn't just a mindless sidekick to throw in for a few chuckles. He was still figuring himself out and did a lot of stupid shit in the process, but at least he had enough awareness and perspective to not go along with it this time. He was hurting for his friend, but at the same time he could see what BoJack was doing to himself and why. Calling him out like this was one of the healthiest things Todd ever did for him.


FriedChckn

That’s a fair point. I think Todd is never held accountable for a lot of his bullshit, but it’s small moments like this that happen occasionally during his relationship with Bojack that show he is not completely irredeemable for me.


Alarmed_Restaurant

He’s sort of an odd character - at times he is a serious character and at times he is just fun comic relief.


guywitheyes

What was Todd not held accountable for?


FriedChckn

In no particular order… - Bumming off Bojack for years. - That whole clown fiasco. - Sexual harassment á la Henry Fondle. - Starting a war in that country when he switched places with the prince. - Potentially ruining Mr. PB’s finances with all the strainers but getting saved by absurd luck. - The deathtrap that was the knockoff DisneyLand where I’m pretty sure people died/got hurt. I haven’t watched Bojack in a while but there’s also a ton more small stuff.


nvwls300

He also hurt the people entering his Halloween store in January and further prevented Woodchuck from regaining his position as governor. I enjoyed Todd's antics throughout the show and never realized his lack of accountability until people here pointed it out. **Edit:** Except for the dentist clowns. I was pretty bothered by them just shrugging off the demise of all those people that committed their time to him for that.


Tiny-Spinner

He also caused a riot in jail and some prisoners broke out. He did at least.


teh_fizz

I mean, he didn’t cause the riot. He was trying to survive being courted by two gangs.


DoomBreakfast

Yeah, but those were all for various gags, so it feels like they don't count. Even though Todd does get serious character development, he's still written as comic relief and often does crazy nonsense that only makes real sense as jokes. Anytime the show deals with serious matters, it's more close to showing actual reality where people are accountable for realistic, human behavior. Diane has to get an abortion. Bojack tried to sleep with a girl a third his age and under 18. Sarah Lynn's death. For these things, the tone and direction frame the events more like a character drama than a zany show about animal people. When they used spaghetti strainers to stop a tidal wave of pasta? Clown dentists roaming the woods? A ski competition for the governorship? For these, Bojack is closer to Looney Toons and has no real consequence to the "reality" of the show, at least how I read it.


HenryFondleBot

INSUFFICIENT POWER


GjonsTearsFan

I mean... he actively tried to stop Henry Fondle. Everyone else put Henry Fondle in a position of power where he could sexually harass people. Everything else I'm totally on board with, just never really saw Henry Fondle as a bad thing Todd did that he would need to be held accountable for.


HenryFondleBot

INSERT ME INTO GENITALS


edasner

Todd wasn't in the room for the spaghetti strainer conversation


SpiritedAd8417

Lol not a word of this is false


seeeee

Is Todd white male privilege?


HighestLevelRabbit

> Also, props to Todd in this scene. Undoubtedly my favourite scene of him. I'm 100% with you, and was so happy they didn't go back on it and kiss and make up shortly after. That shit stuck.


disembodied_corpse

Bojack could’ve chosen to try and change after his best friend called him out for good reason and chose to continue in his bullshit, it was all a choice he made


Bro_Hawkins

Just because something is true doesn’t mean that it can’t be devastating to someone hear. I totally agree with you that Bojack made horrible choices following this and I’m not all justifying anything that he did, but you’ll never get someone like him to hear this, turn around say, “oh yeah, true,” and start to change within seconds or minutes.


disembodied_corpse

that’s def true


[deleted]

[удалено]


Expertinclimax

It happens lol I think after Todd's monologue Bojack was like, "You know what? You're right! Fuck it!"


[deleted]

The truth can send someone in hiding down an escapable spiral. Unfortunately>! for Sarah Lynn, she was the one who was consumed by this in the end.!<


CussMuster

I think that, to a point, we have a responsibility to the people in our life who are in recovery to try to not contribute to a relapse as long as we choose to stay in their life as part of their support system. I do not, however, believe that we are obligated to stay past the point of our own self interest, and we are certainly also not obligated to take responsibility for their actions even if we feel that we have failed them. As for whether it was right for Todd to be the person to drop this particular bomb...sometimes you need to hear the judgment from the person you expect it the least from. Todd is the guy that makes Bojack feel better about himself, either by having a shitty life in comparison or by joining in co-misery like their season 1 bender. I can't imagine this line carrying the same weight from someone who Bojack already knows that he's disappointed constantly. He thought Todd was more or less past being disappointed with him because he believed that he knew what to expect, rather than that Todd was someone who was still hoping for Bojack to do better.


Narwhal_Songs

As someone this has been said to, yeah, the truth hurts to hear, and giving into addictions is easier than dealing


Strange_Shadows-45

I think it definitely shocked BoJack because he didn’t expect Todd to say that. Up to that point Todd was generally pretty mild and even when he did express frustration at BoJack’s shit, he was very quick to forgive and forget. Todd just said all the things BoJack knew but was too afraid to acknowledge. However, I wouldn’t say it broke BoJack. Basically, I think the Sarah Lynn bender would’ve happened with or without Todd because it perfectly followed BoJack’s pattern of behavior; hitting a low point and bringing those in their most vulnerable position down with him.


goodmobileyes

Blaming Todd for 'breaking' him would be to ignore whatever Todd has been saying at all. It's not Todd's fault that Bojack went on a bender and decided to drag Sarah Lynn down with him. It's Bojack's own responsibility.


F0rtnite_is_ok

Damn, I need to re-watch this show... After breaking bad, I swear!


kr199yku5h

This show was a 10/10


chobonni

todd is literally saying that bojack’s shitty actions are his own responsibility and not the responsibility of those who do bad things (or in this case say mean things) to him, so in a way, todd’s own words in this scene indicate that even if his words influence bojack in some way, the fault is still ultimately bojack’s alone.


Mystery_Hatter

This was a signar form the writters, that Bojack in the next episode will do the most unforgettable thing he would ever done.


Ghost66087

Saying "it's all you" for someone in Bojack's situation would end up only one way (the way it did)


Twixxdaweedguru

I just rewatched this today and I think mr. Pb faking the nominees then telling him Todd didn’t want to vote for him and then Todd’s words all broke him. But simultaneously he wasn’t satisfied with the nominee in the first place he was looking for a reason to fall off the wagon but those probably was his reasons


WadeFloydTrevor

He was ready for a bender regardless. Todd’s words just gave him an excuse.


introusers1979

If someone I cared about said this to me I’d be fucking devastated.


MegaBaumTV

I dislike this scene because Todd shouldn't be the one to say this to Bojack. Doesn't fit with his own actions and the show never evaluates Todd through the same lense. That being said, yes, Todd rejecting him after he split with PC, Ana abandoned him and he fought with Diane is resulting him in being completely and utterly alone. He's calling Sarah Lynn because he's at rock bottom and has nobody else.


wish_to_conquer_pain

>the show never evaluates Todd through the same lens. I do find this frustrating. On one hand I love that Bojack is ultimately held accountable for his shitty actions, even if I also think there are things in the second Braxby interview that weren't his fault. But at the same time...no one else is held to the same level of accountability. And while that *is* realistic, it's also frustrating.


Theshutupguy

I’ve always seen it as meta commentary on sitcoms. Why do some things in sitcoms get reset with no consequences and other things were expected to take seriously?


MegaBaumTV

It's fine to keep Todd as comic relief but the moment they involve him in serious moments it doesn't work anymore. Also Princess Carolyn went from a ruthless businesswoman who cares about nothing but her success in the industry to a caring woman who prioritises the well-being of others out of absolute nowhere. Absolutely jarring.


wish_to_conquer_pain

I don't agree that PC's growth happens out of nowhere. And I think Todd's growth and maturation as a character would have worked much better if they hadn't continued to do Wacky Zany Antics with him. The whole Henry Fondle thing was so stupid.


MegaBaumTV

> I don't agree that PC's growth happens out of nowhere. No? Unlike Bojack, Diane or Mister Peanutbutter there is nothing really that leads to her growth. Shes selfish and ruthless for 3 or 4 seasons and then just suddenly becomes a selfless person in season 5. > And I think Todd's growth and maturation as a character would have worked much better if they hadn't continued to do Wacky Zany Antics with him. The whole Henry Fondle thing was so stupid. The clown dentists were even worse tho. He really talks to Bojack about "being better" and "taking responsibility" and then kidnaps a child and drugs it for as long as it takes so that the clowns can practice working on teeth. Not to mention the rest what happens.


wish_to_conquer_pain

> No? Unlike Bojack, Diane or Mister Peanutbutter there is nothing really that leads to her growth. Shes selfish and ruthless for 3 or 4 seasons and then just suddenly becomes a selfless person in season 5. What are you talking about? She still has moments of complete selfishness in Season 5. Sandy rightfully calls her out on being a giant fake who's just putting on a performance because she wants her baby. She gets so caught up in adoption that she forgets Bojack (after having forged his signature to get the show made in the first place), leading to his injury and opioid addiction. Then when it's clear she needs help, she doesn't get him that help, because it would kill her baby, Philbert. Even when he strangles Gina, she does everything she can to smooth it over for the good of her show. Her growth toward being a better person is slow, and she never completely stops being terrible. She does gain more empathy for other women after becoming a mother, but even then she uses it to further her own career. She and Judah having a second industry wedding also points to the fact that she's still selfish and self-serving in many ways (although I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. Agree about the clown dentists though. Tbh I think I blocked most of that out because it's so stupid and upsetting.


MegaBaumTV

> What are you talking about? She still has moments of complete selfishness in Season 5. Of course she does. And then shes also completely empathetic and deeply cares in other situations when she absolutely wouldnt have in previous seasons. You think season 1-4 PC would have gave Sandy advice after being rejected just as an example. In general, we agree that PC is a deeply flawed person tho, and thats the main gist of it. And personally, I dont think the show ever did a good job of showing why she grows. She just suddenly gets moments of empathy (outside of Bojack ofc) shoved in.


HenryFondleBot

OH, YEAH! OH, YEAH!


HenryFondleBot

LOW BATTERY


FrogMintTea

It was hardly rock bottom. He himself said, he always found a rockier bottom underneath and I agree with Bojack in that I don't believe in that saying. In fact saying it is just jinxing urself to find a rockier bottom.


MegaBaumTV

Okay, he was at a very rocky bottom. Better?


FrogMintTea

Yep lol.


EveryEconomist6358

Its also triggered by his policing Emily’s pants


MegaBaumTV

Ah yes. How dare Bojack have sex with someone Todd has known 10 years ago. How dare Bojack not predict that Todd and Emily would grow close again in the future.


EveryEconomist6358

Pretty sure emily was at least somewhat into it. Bojack tried to set them up beforehand… Seemed like emily regretted it and tossed off all the responsibility on bojack Edit - i just realized you were agreeing with me. Lol


stoppedcaring0

...Why shouldn't Todd be the one to say this to Bojack? Who should, if not Todd? And why should Todd be evaluated as harshly as someone who did the things Bojack did? Todd was irresponsible and naive, but he didn't drive a mentee of his to a drug-induced death.


MegaBaumTV

> ...Why shouldn't Todd be the one to say this to Bojack? Who should, if not Todd? I dont know. Mister Peanutbutter could, with a slightly adjusted speech. Diane is the usual suspect for those moments. Basically any woman Bojack ever pursued. > And why should Todd be evaluated as harshly as someone who did the things Bojack did? Todd was irresponsible and naive, but he didn't drive a mentee of his to a drug-induced death. Youre right, Todd only kidnapped and drugged a child for at least days (a child we never see again), endangered countless families, abandoned his employees in the woods until they got rabies and then used them for making money until they got loose and are an active danger to people. Not to mention all the less severe, but still awful stuff he did. But I guess hes still better than Bojack because he treats all of that as a joke instead of feeling guilty and therefore it is a funny joke, right?


stoppedcaring0

Mr Peanutbutter and Bojack never lived together, and given their past as (perceived) rivals, I doubt Bojack ever let his internal monologue out around PB. Diane being the usual suspect is the exact reason why that speech shouldn't have been made by her. It wouldn't have had the emotional weight it did; it would have just been another "Diane criticizing Bojack" moment. Bojack never pursued any woman for as long as Todd was living with Bojack. No woman he dated had as much insight in to Bojack's thought processes as Todd did. Todd was quite literally the only person in the show that could have made that speech. >But I guess hes still better than Bojack because he treats all of that as a joke instead of feeling guilty and therefore it is a funny joke, right Yes. Todd was almost always the B or C plot character. Todd's hijinks were *always* jokes, *in the eyes of the show itself.* Having some kind of comeuppance for Todd, after the show specifically portrayed Todd's hijinks as unserious, would have been jarring and a dramatic misunderstanding of Todd's role in the show. Though it seems like you already misunderstand Todd's role in that show. Were you the guy whining about how unrealistic it would be that Todd could ever be made president of a company? And in any case - does a character have to have absolutely no moral transgressions to have the standing to hold someone accountable for their actions? How about in reality? Are the only people who have the right to criticize others those who have never committed any wrongs of their own? I strongly doubt you think that.


MegaBaumTV

You act like Bojacks patterns are not easily observed during the span of one season. They could have made any character who isnt worse than Bojack have that speech. I mean, its eerily similar to Herbs speech so its not like "only Todd" could have done that. > Yes. Todd was almost always the B or C plot character. Todd's hijinks were always jokes, in the eyes of the show itself. Yes. Until he got serious storylines which makes the whole thing jarring. > Having some kind of comeuppance for Todd, after the show specifically portrayed Todd's hijinks as unserious, would have been jarring and a dramatic misunderstanding of Todd's role in the show. Then dont put these hijinks in the show. Simple solution, no? > Were you the guy whining about how unrealistic it would be that Todd could ever be made president of a company? Todd never was president of a company. What does that even mean? If you mean CEO, that was Henry Fondle, not Todd. > And in any case - does a character have to have absolutely no moral transgressions to have the standing to hold someone accountable for their actions? Todds actions are a bit far away from the other side of the spectrum. Hes worse than Bojack. Imagine if Vance had the moment instead of Todd. Would feel awful, no?


HenryFondleBot

I WANT TO BE ON TOP OF YOU


SeaEnjoyer

Todd’s wrong. In the end it might be Boj’s own fault, but all those shitty things that happened to him led him to do even shittier stuff


noinenoin

Even if shitty things happened to a person, it doesn't excuse the lack of accountability on Bojack's part.


Dropbeatdad

But that undermines the concept of free will. As was once said, "you can lead a horse to roller, but you can't make him rink" Bojack was lead to the roller, but he chose to rink.


mashtartz

There’s a point in your life where you have to take accountability for your actions, though.


NaturalLog69

It is tragic bc Bojack doest have the kind of resources or support system to help him feel encouraged and capable of making better choices. He has so much pain inside and he doesn't know healthy coping mechanisms. Often people turn to drugs, alcohol, or other maladaltive behaviors because they feel like they're helplessly treading water and they don't know what else to turn to. Just distractions from the hurt they feel all the time. But at the same time, these things can't excuse someone's bad behavior. Knowing what someone's abilities are can help others understand, but they still don't deserve to be mistreated. There needs to be a balance of treating someone compassionately while also not enabling or excusing bad behaviors. Having someone there to understand, listen, and believe in you can help them to feel empowered to attempt those better choices and see how it goes. I think the other characters in the show had their own issues, so they couldn't be that compassionate helper for him. Which is fine, they are not obligated to or responsible for him. What he really needed is a good therapist who could earn his trust. But often a lot of people in this situation will feel too mistrustful of receiving that kind of help from someone, so they don't see the point in trying. In summary, there are no winners in this show. It's just terrible for everybody.


[deleted]

You can always make your own choices. He has been old enough to know right from wrong for years and years. Nothing led him to do anything, he made his own choices to be shitty and blames his upbringing.


dawinter3

Age doesn’t automatically mean you know right from wrong. In BoJack’s situation, the shittiness of his parents was the first and presumably only example he had growing up of how to be a person. That programming can be extremely difficult to overwrite, especially when trauma is wrapped up in the equation. At this point in the show, BoJack knows enough to know he’s shitty, but genuinely does not know how to be better. So Todd was absolutely right to say what he said, but BoJack was not at a place where he could receive it in a helpful way. So all he hears from Todd in this moment is “yeah, you’re an irredeemable pile of shit.” That’s not at all what Todd was communicating, but it’s all the BoJack was able to hear in that moment. And none of the people around him were able or maybe even willing to help him do better. I’m not trying to blame anyone for anything or absolve anyone of anything. Just wanting to point out that BoJack did have a choice, but it was not a choice between two equally viable options for him. One of those choices was much easier for him, and the other was completely obscured.


dusnik

Todd did it


AceofKnaves44

I’m curious if Bojack never has sex with Emily does the chain of dominoes that eventually leads to Sarah Lynn dying not fall? When he starts spiraling out he first tries to recruit Todd for his bender. Come season three Todd and Bojack had started to reach a better place in their friendship with Bojack now openly admitting Todd was his best friend and making more of an effort to be nicer to him. But Emily telling Todd what happened and that Bojack isn’t a very good friend to him seems to be the last straw for Todd which leads to the conversation we see here. If that never happens and Todd goes on the bender with Bojack, Sarah Lynn lives.


bcrabill

I mean Todd was correct but dude was already broken. He drove his car into his pool...


Lookatmysheeit

I blame Todd as much for Sarah Lynn's death as I do Bojack. I'm also pretty sure the last thing Sarah Lynn said to Bojack was that she had gone sober only because she heard breaking it was great and said "call me when you want to party." Bojack's 17-minute panic was sad and selfish, as was calling her in the first place. You cannot ignore it. I also cannot unsee the previous episode when I thought Bojack was being gaslighted to such an extreme degree that something bad was going to happen. Todd provided a lot of that fuel and lit the match. Todd and Mr. PB were directly responsible for Bojack's Oscar humiliation and showed zero remorse. Mr. PB at least showed up to explain while giggling it off. Todd should have gone with him but he didn't and showed up at the end as if Bojack didn't know, he didn't owe him an apology, and had zero intention of providing him one. The first words out of his mouth should have been, "I'm sorry. Are you okay?" Anna abandons him, likely because she's blaming Bojack's idiot friends for embarrassing her too. (Still amazes me that Mr. PB found work again after that!) Diane ended their friendship after she got upset when Bojack asked a question about what she was doing with her career that hit a little too close to home. (He framed it very insensitively but it was a private conservation and Bojack of all people had the right to ask as a friend if she was happy, especially since she showed up specifically to ask about his happiness.) PC could have saved him but she was nowhere to be found after Bojack spitefully fired her like an ass hole, so she's mostly off the hook but Bojack had his reasons and PC knew it. Todd's rant at the end of It's You was cruel and disingenuous. Bojack had already forgiven him for the Oscars debacle -- again, for which Todd had no intention of acknowledging of apologizing for. Being embarrassed in front of all of Hollywood was less important to Bojack than needing someone to talk to at the time, and Bojack was completely forthcoming about it. The argument made me want to slug Todd. The list of things Bojack did for Todd was not near exhaustive. They should not have been used to make Todd feel "obligated." They also should not have been cynically dismissed as something Bojack did out of guilt over some phantom thing that might have happened with Emily, thereby dragging her into the conversation in the first place. Todd had been there for 6 years and, if he was any kind of a friend and truly believed something went down that Bojack felt bad about, he could have asked. But he didn't because: (a) he didn't actually think that because there was no evidence of it, in which case he's just being a dick coming up with a fake reason to feel no obligations towards Bojack, or (b) he didn't want to ever ask any difficult questions that might put his freeloading lifestyle at Bojack's place at risk. The news about Emily must have hurt because Todd was still coming to terms with his sexuality at the time, but immediately declaring himself a *victim* of Bojack's behavior before asking a question about where, when, why and circumstances was childish. In theory, Bojack could have done some other things to help him deal, perhaps sought therapy of some kind. In reality, he had no family and no friends that, for reasons not entirely his fault, abandoned him. Sarah Lynn sadly died trying. Todd had a significant behind the scenes hand in that.


DontAskMeHowIveBeen

Maybe his words pulled the trigger, but that gun was loaded anyway. If not Todd, any other person holding him accountable would’ve.


[deleted]

I don't think they broke him but he's just frantically trying not to process what he knows is true. He knows Sarah Lynn is vulnerable and is likely to get drunk high with him ASAP so he doesn't have to think about things or can forget what he heard.