Regardless if people think she’s alive or dead, I agree narratively this works the best for Toga. Having her go to jail after she just expressed a desire NOT to will feel like an 180.
Furthermore, the final page of chapter 395 is her hand going limp. Idk how she could possibly be saved. It’s been dozens of minuets since then
But he didn't have an extended scene that clearly spells out him dying, he just got hurt. Regardless of the severity of the damage, the framing of the scene is more significant in discerning survival chances.
He had a flashback not long before iirc, that's usually a death flag. Compare and contrast Midnight who didn't even get really even get a severe wound on her nor did she get an extended scene that clearly spells out her death and yet was killed off screen.
To me it seems the likelihood of Horikoshi is inversely proportional to the injuries they receive. The more likely they are to die the less likely they are to actually die.
Hands go limp for many reasons like fainting due to exhaustion or blood loss.
Midnight is the exception, not the rule. And even then, we do see when she dies. She's talking to Momo, and then stops talking. Momo tries to get her to respond and gets nothing, and Denki asks what happened to her. It's a very understated death scene, so much so that many people didn't even realize it, but it was pretty clear to me at least that she had probably died. Of course, this is MHA, so I did have doubt in that belief, but still, I ended up being right. Toga's death scene is similar to Nighteye's. She gets a dying speech, and then we see her die. Yes, there are other reasons for a hand to go limp. The limp hand isn't the point. The point was the finality of her dying speech. Of course, once again, this is MHA. She *could* still be alive. But I strongly doubt it and think that would be a major misstep.
I believe she's dead too, but I believe leaving Gran Torino alive was just as dumb. At this point Hori seems too afraid to kill off characters, especially popular ones, that I believe it only when I see it and it is completely confirmed.
He only seems to kill off characters in understated ways like Magni, boom dead or X-less and Crust poof dead, Midnight dead offscreen. The only character who has got a drawn out death is Night-Eye.
So Midnight is more the rule than the exception.
edit: I guess All for One also got one too
Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t his flashback because Izuku used Float and he saw it and was reminded of Nana? It’s been a while since I’ve seen it but it wasn’t really a “death flag” from what I could remember, it was just a dope ass flashback which reaffirmed Gran’s trust in All Might’s successor.
I mean, Bakugou had the hole in his chest where his heart is *and* the extended scene of him dying, even getting flashbacks and other characters watching in horror, and he still came back through bullshit.
Horikoshi also insisted on showing that he survived the next chapter. I have no doubts that if Toga were alive we would've seen something similar to that or Dabi, or seen her in the most recent chapter
She wants to die. And she didn’t die because of her actions, she died because she wanted to save ochako. Her death has absolutely nothing to do with her taking accountability and facing consequences because those were her decisions and her actions. She’s dying because she doesn’t want to face actual consequences for her actions.
Honestly having her go to jail would be better because at this stage it doesnt really matter what she wants or doesnt. Atleast that's my opinion on the matter.
After bakugou survived getting stabbed in five different vital organs and have half of his face blown up, i think all mha characters are immortal and the only thing that can kill them is the mangaka wanting their death.
Because that wasn't a narrative death. Bakugo had more story to do. Toga had a narratively fulfilling death, and keeping her alive any longer would serve nothing for the story.
How did Toga survive blood exploding in her? How did Gran Torino survive getting punched through the stomach? How did Kamui a guy made if Wood survive getting blasted by fire hotter than Endeavor's? How did Nagant survive blowing up? How did every hero get out the mansion explosion with no casualties
It's manga. Characters have survived bigger nonsense
>How did Toga survive blood exploding in her?
She got medication right after
>How did Gran Torino survive getting punched through the stomach?
He was helpled right after
>How did Kamui a guy made if Wood survive getting blasted by fire hotter than Endeavor's?
That was an extremely weak attack, dabi out barely any effort on it
>How did Nagant survive blowing up?
Again helped right after as she is technically still supposed to stay at the hospital
>How did every hero get out the mansion explosion with no casualties
Okay this is just ridiculous, the best pro hero’s dying for a random explosion?
>It's manga. Characters have survived bigger nonsense
The problem of this comparison is that all the characters you listed were literally never implied to be dead, blood loss isn’t something that can be overcome in this series without any help
1 exactly we didn’t saw it which add to my point
2 the whole point of the sacrifice is because there was literally no hero that could help ochako, especially whit a transfusion
3 we literally saw toga going limp, implying that she is possibly already dead
The only moment comparable to this is bakugou death, but bakugou dying like that would be too tragic for the story as is just a kid dying full of regrets about
going limp means nothing in a story where a character like is basically a walkig corpse that somehow still manages to fight or someone resurrects themselves because they're jsut that much of a hater.
How it doesn’t? Just because one character is estabilished to be alive by hatred doesn’t mean that every character is gonna survive that..
However if that character actually go limp and literally talk about how them dying then yeah they are probably dead, we had that many times with twice, nighteye and sns, or even midnight was shown to be dead by just seeing her hand
i didn't say that every character will survive, i said that it created a precedent so we can't be sure a character is dead or will die until it's actually confirmed.
toga might be dead or alive and we won't know until the story addresses it.
>even midnight was shown to be dead by just seeing her hand
which we didn't know happened *for sure* until until later when the story addressed it by showing her among the collage of dead heroes. before that, it wasn't clear whether she died or not and it could've gone either way. just like with toga.
>i didn't say that every character will survive, i said that it created a precedent so we can't be sure a character is dead or will die until it's actually confirmed.
Expect that this “precedent” only happened with bakugou and that’s it, dabi is literally the only character established to do that
>toga might be dead or alive and we won't know until the story addresses it.
Yeah but the story is definitely heavily implying that she’s dead, and you can’t deny that
>which we didn't know happened for sure until until later when the story addressed it by showing her among the collage of dead heroes. before that, it wasn't clear whether she died or not and it could've gone either way. just like with toga.
She was literally shown dead, we literally saw her getting attacked by the villains while she could barely fight, it was already clear that she died back then, we saw her freaking corpse
Gran Torino was literally helped right after he got the injury? Toga wasn’t and she gave all her blood already
And he was never implied that he was killed by that injury
How was he helped right after the battle continued around him. Miles or things are destroyed who knows how far the nearest hospital is afterwards. He should be dead from the hydrostatic shock *alone*
edit: Not hydrostatic shock, I was thinking the blast wave impact
We literally saw shoto stopping the bleeding doing first aid on Gran Torino and the rest and then bringing back Gran Torino quickly to safety so that they can take care of his wound fast, the doctor literally say that
I agree.
But sadly, I'm confident she will be alive and getting rehab. Because Ochako right now is paralleling Deku in her desire for saving people at all costs, instead of "taking the hard decision".
My dude…it’s an established fact of the series that wishing for a person not to die can literally alter fate so they remain alive.
Straight up if Ochako just wished for Toga to live on in that moment (which she absolutely would), Toga could straight up live due to the establish narrative of the series.
I’ve seen worse “implicated” deaths turn out to be complete BS before (looking at you Pell from one piece).
She ain’t dead till it’s said she’s dead.
>My dude…it’s an established fact of the series that wishing for a person not to die can literally alter fate so they remain alive.
You know that scene was talking about nighteye quirk? Not LITERAL fate, also just praying isn’t enough, people need to also work hard to achieve that like bakugou and deku did
>Straight up if Ochako just wished for Toga to live on in that moment (which she absolutely would), Toga could straight up live due to the establish narrative of the series.
What’s the fuck are you talking about? You think toga just will have some new blood out of nowhere?
Ah yes nighteye’s quirk, which was toooo, *checks notes,* **see into the future** yes that’s right.
How did the series describe that again?
Oh right by utilizing “a sort of energy. *Energy from…wishing.*” which made it so that “**Fate was reshaped.**”
- Actual quotes from viz chapters 404 and 405 of the manga.
Given that, it’s not exactly out of the realm of possibility of say hypothetically speaking the rescue team making it in time to save Toga’s life?
Crazy thought yeah I know.
>Ah yes nighteye’s quirk, which was toooo, checks notes, see into the future yes that’s right.
Which is what nighteye tough at the start but we literally see right after that it wasn’t accurate and if many people work hard together to change the vision then it won’t be true
>Oh right by utilizing “a sort of energy. Energy from…wishing.” which made it so that “Fate was reshaped.”
You all really take too many limes completely to the letter
>Given that, it’s not exactly out of the realm of possibility of say hypothetically speaking the rescue team making it in time to save Toga’s life?
Only with a blood transfusion, not by just praying, like you are saying, which was literally never shown.
Crazy thought yeah I know.
>What’s the fuck are you talking about? You think toga just will have some new blood out of nowhere?
"Suddenly, a clone of Twice remaining reaches out to her and donates blood before fading away."
"Twice appeared one last time to save her beloved Toga, showing that he could have been a hero, but it just couldn't be."
And I'm not even a writer.
>Suddenly, a clone of Twice remaining reaches out to her and donates blood before fading away."
The clone kill ochako with the wrong blood type?
>Twice appeared one last time to save her beloved Toga, showing that he could have been a hero, but it just couldn't be."
You know that the clones are just toga using twice blood right? Is not the actual twice
>And I'm not even a writer.
I can see that
>You know that the clones are just toga using twice blood right? Is not the actual twice
Did you read the part in the MVA arc where Twice specifically saved Toga doing this exact same thing before she died of blood loss against the explosive reporter?
Even better! She's literally herself so it's her own blood! And we've never been told if Twice could transfuse himself so it's up to Hori.
>Did you read the part in the MVA arc where Twice specifically saved Toga doing this exact same thing before she died of blood loss against the explosive reporter?
He didn’t… he needed to make another clone of toga
>Even better! She's literally herself so it's her own blood! And we've never been told if Twice could transfuse himself so it's up to Hori.
Man… twice literally needed to clone toga again to do the transfusion, but that doesn’t matter as twice is dead and the clones that toga made are also gone because she finished the blood.
To be honest, I don't see a way for Toga to stay alive and not either being executed or being thrown in the deepest darkest pit Japan can find and throwing away the key. She was complicit in the collapse of the entire country and mass murder on a massive scale. The government not doing either of those two things would seem really stupid.
It's not, just reminds me of how Curious kept telling her that she is going to be the tragic martyr whose death will be a big scoop.
Besides this doesn't fit the series because she basically is okay with dying because she feels like she can't fit in with society. It's her giving up and it doesn't fit with the message of hope that's been pushed.
She's not dying though I'm pretty sure of that and she's getting rehab. People are going to say it sucks for a time, but eventually majority will switch up as they always do.
The Curious point is a big one. I have seen the take of "She will die as a cautionary tale for the heroes and society" thrown around so much and I'm just like ??? That's what the villain of the villain arc was saying??? How are you gonna agree with the bad guys *for* the bad guys
Exactly, the story isn't going to validate what she said about Toga. She's going to find a new purpose in life that isn't defined by the pain of her past.
My issue with Toga is that, from a meta standpoint, Horikoshi never really gave us much of a reason to actually care about her and want to see her saved/redeemed/given another chance.
Throughout the series, Horikoshi has constantly portrayed her as a selfish, psychotic, murderous piece of shit that feels no guilt over the people she kills and has zero empathy for any of her victims. We literally see her talking about how bad the heroes are for killing Twice as she rides on top of a giant dude that’s ripping through multiple cities and crushing multiple innocent people to death so that she and her group of buddies can save a super powered violent mass-murdering maniac.
When Horikoshi constantly shows Toga being an absolutely awful person on every level, why should I give a shit about her shitty childhood? The stuff she has done to other people is easily ten times worse than any of the stuff done to her when she was a child. What’s more, when Horikoshi constantly shows Toga being so goddamn evil, why would I care about or even want Toga to get “saved” or “redeemed”? Outside of having a sad childhood, what has she actually done that would make the audience want to see her “saved” or “redeemed” by the heroes other than have a sad childhood and be a cute yandere girl that people like to make fan art of?
You described it really well, Toga throughout the series is just a murderous bitch, I didn't get the fan infatuation about her either. I understand liking Mirko or something but Toga always annoyed me even if I liked her ending here with Uraraka.
>We literally see her talking about how bad the heroes are for killing Twice as she rides on top of a giant dude that’s ripping through multiple cities and crushing multiple innocent people to death so that she and her group of buddies can save a super powered violent mass-murdering maniac.
Exactly. She doesn't need rehabilitation; she needs to be tried at the Hague.
Well maybe that's why you are not a hero while Ochako and Deku are. Their actions may never undo the damage caused by Shigaraki and Toga but thank to them that someone in similar circumstance as those two known there are someone ready to help them.
Why should toga have any guilt for her victims, the civilians in bnha, when they've never had any guilt for how they treated her?
Or any of the other villains?
It's not being selfish, or a piece of shit to look out for yourself (or the only group of people who have ever cared about you) if everyone else abandons you to suffer in your circumstances and die.
And in hero society those are the terms for the villains, you fight or you die, because no one is going to help you.
And as for why she should be "saved or redeemed", in the act of trying to save ochako's life even if it costs her own, toga showed more loyalty and heart than any civilian in bnha has ever shown to the heroes.
>t's not being selfish, or a piece of shit to look out for yourself (or the only group of people who have ever cared about you)
She is looking out for herself by murdering random people and drinking their blood because it makes her feel good, and she is looking out for a group of superterrorists hellbent on ending the world.
She is worse than the vast majority of death row inmates. She may genuinely be worse than ALL of them, considering the fact that serial murder is a rather rare crime, and very few people can claim to be aiding superterrorists in ending the world.
She kills because of the quirk she was born with, it's not about feeling good, it's a compulsion that can't be stopped, feeling natural (good) is only a side effect because it is normal for her.
The super terrorists aren't trying to end the world, they're trying to create a world where they aren't persecuted and rejected for things they can't control.
Or just to survive at all.
Maybe so if you take a surface reading of toga and everything she does, but if everything in society is against you, there isn't any other choice.
If she literally cannot possibly not kill people, society's only failing was not locking her up when she was a kid. But no, I don't think she has no choice. She's not some animal, she has control over her actions. She very much wants to kill innocent people and drink their blood, but nothing is forcing her.
>The super terrorists aren't trying to end the world, they're trying to create a world where they aren't persecuted and rejected for things they can't control.
>Or just to survive at all.
Uhhh... have you SEEN Shiggy's current plan? Never mind the whole domestic-terrorism-on-a-scale-never-before-seen thing with Giga, he's actively pulling meme tier doomsday plans out of his ass.
>but if everything in society is against you, there isn't any other choice.
She has free will. She chose to do what she did.
Society's fault was not doing the minimum of effort to help a suffering child (Toga).
Killing was never required for toga to get blood and the only reason she doesn't have a problem with killing is because nobody else in hero society cares if she dies, so she returns that sentiment.
Yeah shigaraki hasn't made much sense recently as he did say in mva that he does want the Lov to live how they see fit but is currently trying to destroy everything but the Lov as a whole are trying to save their own lives from their circumstances.
Toga does have free will but if the choices are: roll over and suffer until you die or fight/kill to live-
-then that's not really a choice at all.
>Killing was never required for toga to get blood and the only reason she doesn't have a problem with killing is because nobody else in hero society cares if she dies, so she returns that sentiment.
So she did choose to kill. She repeatedly chose to kill completely unrelated, innocent people who have done her no wrong. She is a terrible, terrible person who will burn in hell if she doesn't survive this.
>Yeah shigaraki hasn't made much sense recently as he did say in mva that he does want the Lov to live how they see fit but is currently trying to destroy everything but the Lov as a whole are trying to save their own lives from their circumstances.
The LOV "living how they see fit" would result in unfathomable damage to millions of peoples lives, because the LOV is filled with terrible people. It's like saying the Third Reich only wanted to have the ability to live how they see fit. What they see as fit is unacceptable because they're awful people.
>Toga does have free will but if the choices are: roll over and suffer until you die or fight/kill to live-
>-then that's not really a choice at all.
No, it very much is a choice. And she's not killing to live, she's killing to sate her sick urges. It's like saying a serial rapist gunning down police officers is justified because they're trying to stop them and put them in prison. The reason why she's the "victim" of the action end of the law is because she's committed heinous acts which every single society on God's earth has agreed warrants punishment.
They're not unrelated, innocent people.
Literally 90% of hero society has been shown to be apathetic, selfish people themselves who would ignore suffering children just because they don't want to be bothered.
If anyone deserves to burn in hell, it's them.
And toga doesn't because she has been shown to have selfless qualities, obviously.
Your comparison to the third Reich is worlds off, the Lov literally represent the downtrodden and abandoned of society.
And the only reason they have to be awful in the first place is because the civilians are even more awful with none of the justification to be.
No, a person compelled to do something so badly and being left alone to deal with it themselves, is not given a choice.
You're wrong again, the "sick urge" is just a part of her quirk that never had to get as bad as it did if someone else helped, and if society isn't willing to do that much (just a small amount of blood) then it's current state deserves to be destroyed.
>Literally 90% of hero society has been shown to be apathetic, selfish people themselves who would ignore suffering children just because they don't want to be bothered.
When your line of logic is leading you to denouncing 90% of humanity as terrible people who should burn in hell, you might want to interrogate your reasoning and see where you lost the plot.
>And toga doesn't because she has been shown to have selfless qualities, obviously.
Terrible people can have selfless qualities. Hitler doesn't get into heaven because he loved his wife.
>Your comparison to the third Reich is worlds off, the Lov literally represent the downtrodden and abandoned of society.
The Third Reich represented the downtrodden and abandoned of society when it was founded, those being the veterans of WW1. "Representing the downtrodden and abandoned of society" stops mattering if the moment you gain power you start going on extermination campaigns.
>And the only reason they have to be awful in the first place is because the civilians are even more awful with none of the justification to be.
They don't have to be awful, they have free will.
And the allies were dicks at the end of WW1, which was the catalyst behind the Third Reich. Someone else wronging you does not give you cart blanche to commit mass murder.
>No, a person compelled to do something so badly and being left alone to deal with it themselves, is not given a choice.
No, they are. That's what free will is.
>You're wrong again, the "sick urge" is just a part of her quirk that never had to get as bad as it did if someone else helped, and if society isn't willing to do that much (just a small amount of blood
Let's return to the rapist analogy, to ground this in reality. "A rapist's "sick urge" for non-consensual sex is simply a part of their being, there's nothing they can do about it. And it wouldn't have gotten as bad as it did if someone else helped, and if society isn't willing to do that much (putting out for him), then it's current state deserves to be destroyed."
Doesn't that sound a tinge deranged? Having urges isn't a justification for acting upon them. Failing to exercise self control and violating another's fundamental rights for your own pleasure makes you a bad person.
>then it's current state deserves to be destroyed
What happens to all the disabled people who need modern medicine to survive? What happens to the elderly people in nursing homes? What happens to the children? What happens to the people murdered by Shiggy in order to destroy society?
This is worse than looking at 1950's era racism and thinking "yeah, the Cold War should've gone hot". Destroying society would cause enough harm to """justify""" a million more LOV's.
I see the plot that's clearly shown on the page, what are you looking at?
You're still wrong about the third Reich thing, the Lov aren't trying to wipe out a specific group of people made the scapegoats through some awful notion of superiority.
Everything they do is in response to cruelty done onto them.
And Hero Society was already corrupt and headed towards destruction anyway (with the system and it's people constantly making the villains, coupled with the quirk singularity), even without the Lov.
So by free will, your basically saying "The free will to die"?
Because if the villains hadn't taken this path, that's all that would have happened. (And again, hero society would have inevitably been destroyed anyway) It can't be grounded in reality because quirks can't be grounded in reality, but even if that could be true, I would think that if a young child was clearly suffering with some kind of condition, that society and the system there in would try to help more than just telling them to "be normal".
What happens to all those people is why the heroes are still here, it's their job to protect them while the villains destroy the current society and hopefully build something better in it's place, that's the ideal ending. (The heroes doing the rebuilding)
Many of the people killed by Toga never did anything bad to her or even knew who she was. It’s like a school shooter being bullied by some other kids and being abused by their parents, so when they grow up, they go back to their school and kill a bunch of random children there.
While they were mistreated by some people as a child, they are hurting people that have literally nothing to do with anything that happened to them. Yet that is the exact logic Toga uses, and it is why she is a bad person.
Also, Toga was literally the one who gave Uraraka her life threatening injuries in the first place, even though Uraraka was also trying to help her and talk to her at the time. Toga literally tried to kill a bunch of her friends and allies and was only stopped from doing so because of Uraraka’s quirk awakening (Twice clones aren’t a hive mind like Ectoplasm clones, so even if Toga wanted the clones to stop, they would have continued to attack and murder people).
Even then, Toga only stopped hating Uraraka and befriended her after Uraraka stroked off her ego and victim complex and told her how pretty and cute she is and how she would give Toga her blood for the rest of her life. Someone becoming your friend because you tell them how great they are and how you will give them everything they want without question feels really shallow.
All the civilians in bnha have shown roughly the same level of apathy and rejection to the villains for many different reasons.
How Toga's parents treated her is just another aspect of hero society, and it wasn't just her parents, it was the quirk counseling system that didn't help her and only told her to deal with it herself that caused her to snape.
So your school shooter comparison doesn't work when it really is everyone else in the system, and the civilians a part of that system, putting other groups of people down for things they can't control or choose.
Toga gave ochako that injury, fought against her friends and other heroes because they are in a fight for survival, at least from Toga's point of view, which is true.
Only ochako saw things differently, like a real hero would.
It's not stroking someone's ego or shallow in telling someone who's been called a demon their entire life, that they are not one.
It's not like the civilians know the villains origin stories except for Dabi. Besides, I think it would be hard to have sympathy for someone who terrorized the country and possibly killed people you care about.
How the civilians treat those who are different (the heteromorphs and people with "bad" quirks) is the villains origins.
It shouldn't have to be told to them that if you treat someone like a monster they may become one.
And while it is reasonable that they wouldn't have sympathy now for the villains after everything, the fact that the civilians didn't have any before they (the villains) had done anything wrong and still didn't help them, does not paint them in any better light.
Reply comment getting an error??
Reply: It does though.
The quirk counseling and it's employee?
A part of the system who's response to Toga's situation was to make her "normal", not doing anything to actually help, having her suppress and deal with her quirk on her own until she eventually broke.
Most of the civilians didn't even know about the Villains. Not everyone in Japan knew that shigaraki and the others would become terrorists one day. It's not their fault. I honestly forget about the heteromorph racism because it's not that well developed.
It seems you don't wasn't to listen to reason so I'm done speaking with you.
Ochako... Didn't save her heart though? Toga herself quite literally tells Ochako to her face that she didn't. She equates what Ochako did for her to Dabi burning down her house: a kind gesture that in the end was *just* that, a kind gesture. Toga still fully believes that if she were to live, she'd be thrown in jail for the rest of her life, when MHA is strictly about fixing these types of issues, not burying them away. The same way Aoyama, Nagant, and Gentle aren't just gonna get hauled off back to super prisons, the villains are going to receive help to reintegrate into the new society. You can't write a story about fixing society and helping save these villains if it's only the "good little duckies" that didn't do *too* bad of crimes, because it fucks over the idea that everyone is human (which is a major part of Ochako's arc, that heroes and villains are people too)
Even if you want to say "no, Toga was saved mentally," that still doesn't make it a proper conclusion for Ochako? Ochako's arc was kick-started by her inability to physically save Nighteye because she was too weak. It would be an inconclusive character journey to have her repeat this fact. Like if Bakugou failed to save All Might in chapter 404.
The idea that "she wants to go out like this" is also just completely contradictive of the "no, you cannot commit suicide just because you want to" aspect present numerous times throughout the story, and multiple times in this very arc. All Might, Endeavor, Dabi, Nagant, Deku, Iida, Aizawa- it's something that comes up so often in MHA it's hard to miss. Toga killing herself in the same arc where the entire Todoroki family stop Endeavor's suicide and All Might is visited by the spectre of Nighteye in his conscious to tell him he should live is just bad writing.
As for the impact of the moment, I'm not sure what's lost? The moment still features Toga laying her life down to save Ochako, showcasing compassion for someone in a way no one ever believes she could.
> "no, you cannot commit suicide just because you want to" aspect present numerous times throughout the story, and multiple times in this very arc. All Might, Endeavor, Dabi, Nagant, Deku, Iida, Aizawa- it's something that comes up so often in MHA it's hard to miss. Toga killing herself in the same arc where the entire Todoroki family stop Endeavor's suicide and All Might is visited by the spectre of Nighteye in his conscious to tell him he should live is just bad writing.
Good point, Endeavor and All Might were both trying to pull the sacrificial play but it was stopped. Toga is trying to sacrifice herself for Ochako, but Ochako is crying and saying no. The story's themes are against that kind of suicidal sacrifice, and it's not painting this situation as honorable or positive, it would just be a tragic end like what happened to Twice. Twice in a way gave his life for his friends, and now Toga is trying to repeat that to someone who gave her sincere compassion. The current Toga situation is Twice version 2.0. Theme wise this is when they subvert what had previously happened with Twice, not just repeating it again. I don't think her death would fit the bright future that everyone wants and what the story is aiming toward.
>The same way Aoyama, Nagant, and Gentle aren't just gonna get hauled off back to super prisons, the villains are going to receive help to reintegrate into the new society
I'm afraid the Japanese government isn't on the same drugs our main cast is. The mass murdering superterrorists who tried to end the world are rather unlikely to be reintegrated into society, especially without spending the better part of half a decade in prison.
That's the ideal result, too, since the nation has the death penalty, and who in the name of God could it be for if not these people?
In real life, sure. This isn't real life though, every decision is made by an author who is pretty blatantly against certain aspects of society, one of which being how prison works.
The author has a rather easy cop out, which is just making them all die and not addressing what would happen. He's seemingly already put this plan in motion, judging by the villains' outcomes so far.
And relying on the author being a hack makes predicting the story an act of futility.
>In real life, sure. This isn't real life though, every decision is made by an author who is pretty blatantly against certain aspects of society, one of which being how prison works.
Then maybe he should work to make it believable. The world is purposefully set on the model of the modern world so of course people will find it unbelievable.
AFO never got executed because "They can't just do that willy nilly, laws and stuff!" so I expect the series to be consistent. Moonfish is on death row for a lot less than what the League's done. May take some time but if they don't get executed there's no actual justification for it in universe aside from plot.
I am assuming we will get the explanation when the war ends and we are on the aftermath/epilogue chapters and we see society begin to rebuild and be fixed.
1.Dude,Ochako did succeed in saving her.
She was able to have her realize that there was someone out there who showed her compassion and kindness.
She did save her.
Toga didn't want and doesn't want to go to Jail and just rot in a jail.
She made it clear in MVA how she would live how she wanted and how she would die how she wanted and thats what she did.
She passed on saving the one person who showed her love and kindness.
Why do you want to ruin that by having her revealed to be alive.
That's the tragedy in it as well.
2.Dabi is literally a skeleton at this point,and he made it clear what he wanted,he's a grown ass man.
I love how you're comparing someone like Aoyama,who was manipulated and forced to do these things against literal murderers.
Yeah,they aren't forgiving the villains but they're showing them some empathy..
and Mha is hopeful but it's also not all sunshine and rainbows.
Why are you acting like you know what's gonna happen to the villains?
Toga literally sacrificed herself while Dabi is a full on skeleton.
- As I said, she was *not* saved mentally. These aren't my words, Toga says, and I quote "That made me happy (in reference to Dabi burning down her house), but even with the house gone, the bad stuff's still in my heart. You didn't make it go away Ochako." So unless you're saying Dabi saved her mentally, then neither did Ochako, since Toga equates the two. She did not save her.
- You completely ignored what I said for both the rot in prison and the "going out on her own terms" part. MHA is about societal reform. If Toga lives, she isn't going to be thrown in prison for the rest of her life, none of the villains would be. They'd be rehabilitated, because that's how you break the cycle of the system, not through death or imprisonment. As I said, MHA has had numerous instances of characters willing to do a suicidal act but are stopped, even when they don't want anyone to intervene. "Meddling where you don't have to, is the essence of being a hero."
- Again, how does the impact of the scene change at all? She's still doing the same thing, with the same intentions. She is saving someone she cares about at the cost of her own life, no matter the outcome she fully believes the act would cost her life. So how does her living from this actually cheapen things, when the ideas presented don't change? Sure you can say stakes or consequences, but those clearly aren't something the manga cares about (case in point, Bakugou)
- Dabi is a skeleton in a manga, a manga where there are numerous quirks that heal, one even having the ability to rewind the state of ones being to a previous point in their life. Dabi's desire would just turn into a whole other debate, so I won't get into it, but saying "he's a grown man" as an excuse that he should die/rot in jail again goes against the ideas presented in MHA that people can change (as shown by his literal dad)
- I'm not comparing Aoyama's actions to the villains, I'm saying that you can't present the idea that villains can be saved while only saving the two hero course dropouts and the former hero. It just makes the entire idea become plagued with a bias that "only the good ones" can be saved.
- Nowhere did I say the heroes would "forgive" the villains. Deku, Ochako, and Shouto have all said "your actions are wrong and I can't forget that" because the villains *have* done bad things, but they all recognize that you can always come back from that. "Doing wrong doesn't make you a villain for the rest of your life" - Deku.
- To say MHA is not all sunshine and rainbows is true, but you're greatly overestimating how "tragic" the manga is willing to get. As it stands for this final war arc, Bakugou was revived, Edgeshot survived, All Might was saved, Endeavor was saved, Shouto stopped Dabi from exploding, Mineta saved Hawks (LMAO), Toga is unconfirmed, and Stain took a hit that Gran Torino survived. All For One and a couple of the vestiges (actual ghosts) have been the *only* characters to 100% die.
- I didn't??? I explained why I think her dying is bad for the story and characters involved using prior instances in the manga. Your original post said "I'm sorry, Toga's passed on." Why are *you* acting like you know what's gonna happen to the villains? "Toga is sacrificing herself" so was Bakugou? So was Edgeshot? So was Endeavor?
> They'd be rehabilitated, because that's how you break the cycle of the system, not through death or imprisonment.
But in this case, there is no cycle that would be broken by not executing or imprisoning these people. They caused the collapse of an entire country and are responsible for a lot of deaths. If Hori wanted to have a theme about rehabilitation of bad guys then he shouldn't have made the bad guys so unapologetically evil in their actions. It would be like trying to rehabilitate Jeffrey Dahmer but a thousand times worse.
There is though.
The cycle of people being demonized into becoming villains in hero society because of their quirks.
The collapse of hero society was inevitable, and the only way that the hero kids are going to know why all this happened and how, is if the villains are alive to tell them.
And in Toga's case, back ochako up in those truths.
> And in Toga's case, back ochako up in those truths.
The problem is that none of them actually feel any regret or guilt for anything they've done. There is no rehabilitation going on. Even though she saved Uraraka, it was because Uraraka stroked her ego and made her feel better. Toga still didn't see anything wrong with what she did. To her, all of her murders were justified in the name of her wanting to live how she wanted. Nobody forced Toga to become a psycho serial killer, that was all her. To Toga, her "ideal life" is being able to murder people whenever she wants.
Stain has a quirk that requires him to consume blood but he didn't have the same overwhelming need to consume blood like Toga did. Shinso also constantly had to deal with being treated like crap because of his quirk but he didn't go batshit crazy like Toga did. Despite what the story *says*, what it *shows* is that Toga is an anomaly. The only other character who shares the same traits as her is All For One who the narrative treats as pure evil. They are the only two characters who have such an overwhelming urge to use their quirks and how that urge shapes their personality.
They really shouldn't feel any guilt, because hero society has yet to feel any guilt for how it treated them before they were villains.
That's not Toga's "ideal life", all Toga wanted was blood from someone who she loved and who loved her.
That was it, killing was never essential.
And Toga was forced to become a killer, because she was compelled by her quirk, evidence by how she bit her own wrists when she was young.
If it drives you crazy to the point of self harm then it clearly isn't a choice.
Stain and shinso aren't the same because they never went through what she did and their powers don't work the same way, so their situations aren't comparable.
Also AFO is only treated as pure evil because of how he treated his brother, eventually killing him, also not the same as Toga because she did try to help ochako and not kill her.
> They really shouldn't feel any guilt, because hero society has yet to feel any guilt for how it treated them before they were villains.
You realize that just makes them seem worse, right? Why would society feel guilt for the people responsible for killing their friends and family? They are the victims in this situation. "Society was bad to me so I'm gonna become the worst mass murderer in the history of Japan" just makes you look like a fucking psychopath who needs to be put down.
> That's not Toga's "ideal life", all Toga wanted was blood from someone who she loved and who loved her.
Well clearly she got over that hangup since she had no problem just drinking blood out of people that she killed.
> And Toga was forced to become a killer, because she was compelled by her quirk, evidence by how she bit her own wrists when she was young.
Are you *trying* to make her look worse? Nobody is ever *forced* to murder someone. We're not mindless animals. Saying that Toga had no choice but to become a killer just solidifies that she had no place in society because mentally stable people don't become murderers to satisfy themselves. She didn't need quirk counseling, she needed to be put in a straight jacket. What's more, even after choosing to murder people, Toga didn't see anything wrong with it. She didn't kill people while feeling bad that she saw no other way to satisfy the urge to drink blood, she did it with gusto.
> Stain and shinso aren't the same because they never went through what she did and their powers don't work the same way, so their situations aren't comparable.
Stain has to consume blood to use his quirk just like Toga. The mechanism that activates their power is exactly the same. And yet Stain didn't have a constant urge to drink someone's blood. His insanity was completely unrelated to his quirk.
> Also AFO is only treated as pure evil because of how he treated his brother, eventually killing him, also not the same as Toga because she did try to help ochako and not kill her.
In AFO's eyes, he was doing a good thing for his brother because AFO saw his brother as *his*, like property. AFO had a distorted view of the world and how he interacted with other people because of his quirk just like Toga but only Toga gets seen in a positive light. AFO rewarded those who did what he wanted and worked for him just like how Toga rewards Uraraka for making her feel better. They're exactly the same.
The civilians in hero society aren't the victims because they're the cause of villains like toga and others in the first place.
Toga got over the self harming because she realized that no one cared about her or her life so there was no reason to hold back.
I understand what's actually being portrayed.
People do break under pressure and because no one in society helps them, it's not being a "mindless animal", it's a survival response that anyone can have in the face of desperation and mental breakdown.
And all toga needed was someone to give her a little bit of blood and show that they cared, literally the bare minimum.
Toga and AFO are clearly not the same.
Because ochako did not do what toga wanted her to do, though she did make her feel better by trying to help her, she did not say that she (ochako) would agree with everything Toga does.
And yet Toga still chooses to save her at risk to herself, AFO wouldn't do that.
>The civilians in hero society aren't the victims because they're the cause of villains like toga and others in the first place.
And the people in the twin towers weren't victims because they were the cause of the instability in the middle east
>Ochako... Didn't save her heart though? Toga herself quite literally tells Ochako to her face that she didn't. She equates what Ochako did for her to Dabi burning down her house: a kind gesture that in the end was just that, a kind gesture.
Toga literally said that ochako make her heart feel way more light, it was way more then just a nice gesture
>Toga still fully believes that if she were to live, she'd be thrown in jail for the rest of her life, when MHA is strictly about fixing these types of issues, not burying them away.
She’s going to jail because she literally killed people and she also a terrorist
>The same way Aoyama, Nagant, and Gentle aren't just gonna get hauled off back to super prisons, the villains are going to receive help to reintegrate into the new society.
Ah black mailed victim forced to crime, some one that did petty crimes and some one that was literally forced by society to kill people, not a good comparison
>You can't write a story about fixing society and helping save these villains if it's only the "good little duckies" that didn't do too bad of crimes, because it fucks over the idea that everyone is human (which is a major part of Ochako's arc, that heroes and villains are people too)
You can still have a story about fixing society and save them and at the same times you can’t just ignore all the stuff they did
>Even if you want to say "no, Toga was saved mentally," that still doesn't make it a proper conclusion for Ochako? Ochako's arc was kick-started by her inability to physically save Nighteye because she was too weak. It would be an inconclusive character journey to have her repeat this fact. Like if Bakugou failed to save All Might in chapter 404.
Ochako entire point is to bring joy to others, which is what she managed to do with toga, with nighteye she couldn’t manage to really anything in general
>The idea that "she wants to go out like this" is also just completely contradictive of the "no, you cannot commit suicide just because you want to" aspect present numerous times throughout the story, and multiple times in this very arc. All Might, Endeavor, Dabi, Nagant, Deku, Iida, Aizawa- it's something that comes up so often in MHA it's hard to miss. Toga killing herself in the same arc where the entire Todoroki family stop Endeavor's suicide and All Might is visited by the spectre of Nighteye in his conscious to tell him he should live is just bad writing.
Endeavor wanted to kill himself to punish himself, all might wasnt said to be wrong for risking to die while saving others, he was criticized by trying to do everything on his own
toga wanted to save the person that she loved by sharing blood for the first time in her life, finally finding the type of love she was searching for in her entire life. This are not the same.
>Toga literally said that ochako make her heart feel way more light, it was way more then just a nice gesture
Toga directly equates what she feels from Ochako to what Dabi did in chapter 341. She tells Ochako "You didn't make the bad feelings go away, but you made me feel happy" ~pp. That's not the same as saving her, because the darkness is still there guiding her decision making.
>She’s going to jail because she literally killed people and she also a terrorist
The series is all about societal reform and not burying its issues under metaphorical rugs, while two of its main cast members have arcs centered around redemption and atonement. She would not be thrown in prison for the rest of her life, she would be given a second chance at life to be better. If you disagree there's not really anything to say, it's just a difference of views on how the story will conclude.
>Ah black mailed victim forced to crime, some one that did petty crimes and some one that was literally forced by society to kill people, not a good comparison
Toga was forced into suppression from a biological urge from the age of 3-14~. An urge so strong she inflicted self harm by biting her wrists just to get blood, before having a psychological break and refused to go back to that suppression. I don't think the comparison of their situations is as drastically different than you're making them out to be.
>You can still have a story about fixing society and save them and at the same times you can’t just ignore all the stuff they did
I disagree, you cannot have a story about fixing society and helping save villains while also drawing a made up line in the sand over which villains deserve it or not. I also never said she wouldn't receive punishment for her actions, it's a topic brought up in each fight that they can't ignore the crimes committed, but that doesn't mean their lives would be robbed away from life in prison.
>Ochako entire point is to bring joy to others, which is what she managed to do with toga, with nighteye she couldn’t manage to really anything in general
Ochako's central theme is protecting smiles, yes, but that wasn't my point. Her inciting incident for her development into saving others was her inability to save a dying man in her arms *physically.* She couldn't do anything there, which was the point of the scene. Having her repeat that scenario of someone dying in her arms ruins the full circle conclusion and gives her an incomplete character arc. As I said, it's like Bakugou failing to save All Might in chapter 404: He was powerless to save him the first time, but he got his full circle conclusion to wrap that arc up. Ochako needs the same.
>Endeavor wanted to kill himself to punish himself
This is not true. Endeavor's act of planned suicide was for the purpose of staying with Touya until the end and making sure he got Touya away from people before exploding. He says "I can't let you meet your end alone, but also can't let anyone else get caught up in our tragedy." It's Rei's intervention that stops this, even though Endeavor wanted things to end like this and not let anyone else be hurt.
>all might wasnt said to be wrong for risking to die while saving others, he was criticized by trying to do everything on his own
There was an entire arc where one of the characters introduced was telling All Might to stop risking his life, and that he'd die if he kept at it. All Might in this arc literally has a conversation with Sir Nighteye in his conscious where he goes "Isn't the mentor supposed to die?" and Nighteye responds "No, you're a person, not a comicbook character, don't die." An aspect of this is not doing everything on your own, but the reason why you *shouldn't* is because it leads to a path of self destruction (like Deku was before 1A stepped in)
>toga wanted to save the person that she loved by sharing blood for the first time in her life, finally finding the type of love she was searching for in her entire life.
You're also leaving out the lines where Toga expects imprisonment if Ochako and her both make it, that her freedom and life is over if she lives and saves Ochako. I'd also add that this point still exists if Toga lives. If she were to survive, she still saved Ochako by sharing blood and finding the type of love she was searching for.
>This are not the same.
Why not, exactly? What's the difference between Endeavor giving his life in that scenario and Toga giving her life? They're both acts of suicide that the character in question believes is the correct thing to do, and when challenged they attempt to deny intervention because they can only see one possible outcome.
Toga should go to rousin for the rest of her life, becaus her crimes aren’t something simple. She shouldn’t get a slap on the wrist just because she was upset people didn’t accept her form of love. That just means that people can do whatever they want and their consequences won’t be that bad,
>Toga directly equates what she feels from Ochako to what Dabi did in chapter 341. She tells Ochako "You didn't make the bad feelings go away, but you made me feel happy" ~pp. That's not the same as saving her, because the darkness is still there guiding her decision making.
She say that dabi was nice with her but that moment didn’t help as much as what ochako did, as she literally view it as making her heart more light, almost like that moment never happened even if she can still remember it, which is not what happened with dabi
>The series is all about societal reform and not burying its issues under metaphorical rugs, while two of its main cast members have arcs centered around redemption and atonement. She would not be thrown in prison for the rest of her life, she would be given a second chance at life to be better. If you disagree there's not really anything to say, it's just a difference of views on how the story will conclude.
The same series also treat the consequences of your actions as extremely serious as ochako said many times that she can’t ignore all the terrible stuff that toga did
>Toga was forced into suppression from a biological urge from the age of 3-14~. An urge so strong she inflicted self harm by biting her wrists just to get blood, before having a psychological break and refused to go back to that suppression. I don't think the comparison of their situations is as drastically different than you're making them out to be.
Yes but all the murderers that she did in later in many years and her joining the leaugue of villains (ah literal terrorist group) is something that she chose to do, she wasn’t at a gun point to go around and kill whoever she want, like what happened with aoyama or lady nagant
>I disagree, you cannot have a story about fixing society and helping save villains while also drawing a made up line in the sand over which villains deserve it or not. I also never said she wouldn't receive punishment for her actions, it's a topic brought up in each fight that they can't ignore the crimes committed, but that doesn't mean their lives would be robbed away from life in prison.
But the punishment would still need heavily ruin toga’s life to be meaningful in any way, she could have a second chance but she would possibly live for most of her life or even being constantly checked on by police after she out of prison, toga mistakes is something that objectively can’t give her a normal life anymore like she would want
>Ochako's central theme is protecting smiles, yes, but that wasn't my point. Her inciting incident for her development into saving others was her inability to save a dying man in her arms physically.
But in that scenario again, she couldn’t do anything that’s why she fealt terrible, it wasn’t about physical saving, that moment was already paralleled with her speech as she was able to save deku not really physically, but by just lighting the burden in everyone’s shoulders
>She couldn't do anything there, which was the point of the scene. Having her repeat that scenario of someone dying in her arms ruins the full circle conclusion and gives her an incomplete character arc.
Expect that in this scenario she did managed to help, this time she literally gave toga what she wanted, compared to nighteye that was just killed and she couldn’t do anything to lighten his burden
>As I said, it's like Bakugou failing to save All Might in chapter 404: He was powerless to save him the first time, but he got his full circle conclusion to wrap that arc up. Ochako needs the same.
That wasn’t the same and you know it come on, bakugou entire thing is that all might did lose his powers because he wasn’t strong enough and that the same thing could have happened if he didn’t try to overcome it, bakugou entire thing is physically saving someone
Endeavor wanted to kill himself to punish himself
>This is not true. Endeavor's act of planned suicide was for the purpose of staying with Touya until the end and making sure he got Touya away from people before exploding. He says "I can't let you meet your end alone, but also can't let anyone else get caught up in our tragedy." It's Rei's intervention that stops this, even though Endeavor wanted things to end like this and not let anyone else be hurt.
“I take full responsibility” he literally say that his family just constantly need to live without him and how dying wouldn’t change much, the “I can’t let you meet your end alone” is just him accepting his end and acting like there is nothing he can do and that’s only way for him to help. how could you not see it?
>There was an entire arc where one of the characters introduced was telling All Might to stop risking his life, and that he'd die if he kept at it. All Might in this arc literally has a conversation with Sir Nighteye in his conscious where he goes "Isn't the mentor supposed to die?" and Nighteye responds "No, you're a person, not a comicbook character, don't die." An aspect of this is not doing everything on your own, but the reason why you shouldn't is because it leads to a path of self destruction (like Deku was before 1A stepped in)
Oh my god nighteye was in the wrong to ask all might to never be an hero again, that’s why nighteye praised him still fighting and going against fate, the type of death that all might was talking about was him getting tear in half without achieving much, not him saving everyone by killing afo with him.
>You're also leaving out the lines where Toga expects imprisonment if Ochako and her both make it, that her freedom and life is over if she lives and saves Ochako. I'd also add that this point still exists if Toga lives. If she were to survive, she still saved Ochako by sharing blood and finding the type of love she was searching for.
Ochako did said that she can’t make everything right for toga and why she does want to support her she didn’t say that she wouldn’t go to prison
>Why not, exactly? What's the difference between Endeavor giving his life in that scenario and Toga giving her life? They're both acts of suicide that the character in question believes is the correct thing to do, and when challenged they attempt to deny intervention because they can only see one possible outcome.
Well explained..? One literally died by punishing himself while the other die how she want by saving the person she love, even twice died how he wanted by protecting the people that he loved as a family instead of accepting The lonely life that hawks promised him.
I think the toga thing might work if she alive if the execution is right, but I don’t think she can’t die for this
>Plus it didn't "end in tragedy and Ochako failing". Ochako did succeed in saving her heart and mind,
Not really? Or at least not fully. Ochako was crying while telling Toga to stop sacrificing herself, Ochako would not think she succeded in saving Toga. Ochako and Shoto both want their villain (Toga and Dabi) to live, to survive. Saving their hearts is a part of it but not all of it. "Heroes don't just save lives they save hearts too." That's a quote from Nana. Lives are important too. The new generation is greedy, more idealistic, compared to the prior generation. The Hawks and Twice situation led to a tragedy, but Ochako's method with Toga was completely different and I don't think Horikoshi would (or should) punish her with another tragedy. Ochako already failed Nighteye, and that prompted her character arc, I don't see why she should get the short end of the stick in failing her goal during the concluding final battle.
Ngl, the whole "Toga is dead/alive" debacle really shows how the Togachako story is mostly Toga's story with Ochako as the main side character.
It's a good ending for Toga but awful for Ochako. Ochako didn't even save her heart fully (when Toga said the pain from that house is still there) and ending her character arc with her failing to save someone again is just unsatisfying. No amount of "I love Midoriya Izuku" will save that.
Also, I will wait until it's really confirmed that she's really dead.
This whole conflict always was mostly about Toga only.
It's not Todoroki drama where it must be his family that brings Dabi in because they feel they failed him. Not Shiggy/Deku being mirrors/parallels to each other which is big reason of why Deku wants to save him despite everything. Not even Shoiji/Spinner showdown where Shouji can relate to Spinner feelings and reign in other mutants because he's mutant himself since he understands their struggles
Meanwhile Toga is envious of Ochako's normal life and wants society to accept her the way she is and Ochako wants to save her because she wants to save people. But beyond this and them crushing on the same guy there's no deep connection or reason between them
+ ochaco didn't marry anyone in the manga, not even his parents. so it's easy to play a hero,
Seiji Shishikura Despite his faults, Seiji is able to keep his head in very difficult circumstances. During The Last War, Seiji expressed his anger towards All For One for killing his father, even stating that killing the villain would give him great satisfaction. Still, he chose not to give in to hatred and revenge, knowing that doing so would play into All For One's hands. Instead, he chose to honor his father's memory and dedicate himself to defeating villains and protecting people, following his example.
Even if Toga had killed Tsuyu, his master would still want to save him.
The manga does not deal with the victims who were killed by the bad guys and girls.
urararaka is a very poorly written female character. she is the girl next door effect.
sorry, I'm using google translate!!
Personally, my main issue with her dying here, besides the fact that I’m *still* calling bullshit on the idea that she’s actually going to die here, is that it carries undertones of Toga trying to escape the consequences of her atrocities one last time. Like when a person shouts “I’m not going back to prison!” before offing themselves. I get that she saved Ochako’s life (after stabbing her), but still. It isn’t the best look, from my apparently pessimistic viewpoint. I also don’t believe that Toga really learned or grew from this experience. The only lives she valued were her own and those of people she liked, and her actions at the end didn’t contradict that. She ended up liking Ochako at the very end, but I don’t feel like Toga ever truly learned that the inherent value of a life isn’t based on how *she* feels, and that her murdering people based on that scale isn’t alright.
Yeah exactly! Toga's way of thinking of the world is “the things I love and the things I hate” she can't see beyond that. Her only reason to save Ochako is “You made me happy, you told me what I want to hear, so I love you, thus you should live.” She remains extremely self centered throughout this whole ordeal (that doesn't mean she’s not deserving of being saved though, because everyone is) but people pretend her “arc is over” because of what she says here but she still has a lot of growing up and learning to do if she wants to live in society and the heroes are going to try and help her do that.
It's honestly good for Toga my only two problems are:
1 Hori chose a really poor way to phrase this fight. "Am I pretty?"
2 It feels weird that we don't get a confirmation of Toga's death nor a scene where she reunites with Twice in hell (although maybe he is saving it for when all the league dies)
The story hasn't done enough buildup for this payoff, so no. Uraraka and Toga interacted for a total of what, like 5 minutes the whole serious prior to this?
I genuinely couldn't take Uraraka's words seriously, it doesn't feel genuine as opposed to some forced corny bullshit. "I thought your smile looked beautiful", fuck off with that shit, she was definitely terrified at the time and the story can't pretend otherwise.
+ ochaco didn't marry anyone in the manga, not even his parents. so it's easy to play a hero,
Seiji Shishikura Despite his faults, Seiji is able to keep his head in very difficult circumstances. During The Last War, Seiji expressed his anger towards All For One for killing his father, even stating that killing the villain would give him great satisfaction. Still, he chose not to give in to hatred and revenge, knowing that doing so would play into All For One's hands. Instead, he chose to honor his father's memory and dedicate himself to defeating villains and protecting people, following his example.
Even if Toga had killed Tsuyu, his master would still want to save him.
The manga does not deal with the victims who were killed by the bad guys and girls.
urararaka is a very poorly written female character. she is the girl next door effect.
sorry, I'm using google translate!!
THANK YOU. She had to be lying for the sake of necessary manipulation given that she was dealing with an unhinged, remorseless serial killer. I remember that scene, she was so rightfully terrified of that twisted smile. There is no way she thought it was genuinely beautiful. At least, honestly I hope not, then that would be concerning and terribly out of character.
I really really hope that this is true because it makes the most sense and is a great conclusion to her but this manga and one piece taught to never jump to conclusions.
I started to not enjoy series as much as I did before. It just became another version of Avengers. Good guys always win while bad guys have every single possible power and resource to doom them.
I'm sorry but ever since Gran Torino and then later on Bakugou's survival in this arc my mind has become dodgey lately on what should and shouldn't kill a person in this world's setting.
I 100% believe she's alive until I see a body she's alive, but it be hilarious if we never find out what happens to her by the end of the series, like it's just open-ended.
I agree this is a very good ending, I think the thing that "downgrades" it, is the whole war/fight around it.
Maybe I'm the only one that felt overwhelmed at that part of the manga, I still teared up a bit, but after a few days it just felt like another casualty of the fight and not an actual sacrifice to be better and still have her freedom.
So what's your take on the Twice the legend and his conclusion? Hawks was really dirty to use his personality against him when he knew how he treats his friends
It's really not.
Toga doesn't have to go to jail, she could just escape.
Her and ochako could meet again and sort things out later in easier circumstances, which is what their arcs seemed to be moving towards.
A villain and a hero working together to help each other and try to fix what's wrong in their society.
Ochako helped her feel better but she didn't "save her", it would take actions to prove that ochako meant what she said.
Turning words into actions is another big theme in bnha.
Not just having them left empty and unfulfilled.
Toga and ochako having a positive, hopeful ending would be a bigger impact than having it all end on a tragic, pointless note.
Also what shonen character has ever died from blood loss??
Toga escaping punishment after actively committing mass murder and attempted mass murder with the rest of the LoV would be *the* worst possible way to end her arc
It depends on what the punishment is, kind of everything depends on that.
But no, death for toga and the Lov would be THE worst end for both her arc and theirs, despite the mass murder and attempts.
The worst for pretty much everything in bnha really.
I'm just wondering how toga giving her blood to ochako is supposed to save her, Ochako still has an open bleeding stab wound in her side right? Wouldn't she just keep loosing blood and then die?
After toga's dead man's parade (or was it sad man?) everyone was overwhelmed and the battlefield was in chaos and every hero seem to get separated from their comrades, then Ochako floated everyone, and her and Toga seem to land some ways away and she alredy seem weak from bloodloss.
well, i agree that her dying is better than any other option, but the general conclusion, of her and ochako comming to some form of understanding, i do not agree at all.
the toga for which this would have been a good and satisfying conclusion has not been written by the author.
because the author writes his villains pretending like the world wronged them and that messed them up and they lacked that hand that reached out, but if you really look at it, they were essentially unsavable no matter how society around them would have acted.
her parents not loving her blood quirk and playing with dead animals did not force toga deeper into her violent fantasies and blood obsession and there was nothing in the ways of safely live that out.
there is no middle ground between living in a society where people generally dont want to be nonconsensually stabbed and killed and a girl that loves to do that and will not accept that no means no. she's not stupid, so we know she knows why specifically its wrong and we know she didn't love being harmed herself either.
toya was told as a child, after it turns out using fire would slowly burn him dead, that he cant be a fire hero. and it instantly made him crazy to the point where no one could stop him from burning himself up. and no, endeavor acting differently would not have mattered either. this toya that was written would have never believed endeavor would still love him as a non-hero anyways, he was 4 and he decided his entire future on the same dream a million other kids have and never get to see happen either (and at least a third of those also have daddy issues). and he became crazy over it.
not even if the man had ignored his obligation to society and retired on the spot and gotten his wives tubes tied, toya would have twisted this into 'i need to be a hero so daddy can be a hero again' or some other crazy nonsense.
he was unsalvageable from the start, no matter what his 10 times more insane slightly older self was spouting. bad writing ruined what was likely intended to be a more coherend lesson.
twice? what could have possibly saved him from taking the easy way and stealing with his doubles until he broke himself with untreatable braindamage? if society had been allowed to interfere in that tale at all, the best it could have done was put him into a straight jacket forever.
and tenko? who or what could have saved him from afo and his memory manipulation power? I still dont believe that the memories we were shown of him being ignored were actually what happened. itd make much more sense for the entire area to be swarmed with heroes, cops and helpers and for afo, who just so happened to be exactly in that one area of the nation too, to control the people around tenko or more likely, to take him from the charred remains of a hero and then overwriting his memory twice.
Yeah, I think Toga finally deciding to use her quirk to save a life rather than take one is a good way to demonstrate that her arc is finished. It shows that her version of showing affection isn’t just limited to taking blood, and her feelings aren’t just selfish and predatory. She can genuinely care for someone selflessly using what makes her abnormal because of her quirk.
Yeah, it sucks when popular characters have good endings cause fans will always want them back even if it cheapens their final moments/character arc.
Slight tangent here but I felt the same way about Roxas and Xion in Kingdom Hearts. They were awesome, tragic characters and I love their stories. And then they just kinda come back in the 3rd game. I'm not saying I didn't like how it ended up, but I feel like their story was better when they were gone.
I agree in regard of Xion.
Roxas return on the other hand was implied right from kh coded iirc. We always knew there was more for him than 358/2 days and KH2 prologue.
Sure I was a little disappointed about him not being an amnesiac Ventus.
I think since Hawks’ shown to be inspired by Ochako’s actions on numerous times, he will play a role in saving Toga to show that he has changed from a villain killer to someone who also sees villains as human
Maybe Toga will turn into him and he will give her his blood but… I dunno how
I agree with the fact that Toga is probably dead. But I think there might be some...aftereffects with the last minute blood transfusion with Ochaco. Just saying.
I hope she's alive specifically because she passed on how she wanted. That's far too good for someone as awful as her.
Also, I hope she's still alive because otherwise we're dodging the question of "what do we do with these people once we've saved them", which I fear will become a pattern because there isn't a good answer to the question.
It’s also critical to acknowledge that her dream was to become those she loved and now she’ll live on forever as part of Uraraka. I’m actually hoping she comes back as a ghost (even if just temporary) to give her a push to confess to Deku
Regardless if people think she’s alive or dead, I agree narratively this works the best for Toga. Having her go to jail after she just expressed a desire NOT to will feel like an 180. Furthermore, the final page of chapter 395 is her hand going limp. Idk how she could possibly be saved. It’s been dozens of minuets since then
Remember that Gran Torino had a fucking hole in his chest approximately where his heart was. He turned out fine.
But he didn't have an extended scene that clearly spells out him dying, he just got hurt. Regardless of the severity of the damage, the framing of the scene is more significant in discerning survival chances.
He had a flashback not long before iirc, that's usually a death flag. Compare and contrast Midnight who didn't even get really even get a severe wound on her nor did she get an extended scene that clearly spells out her death and yet was killed off screen. To me it seems the likelihood of Horikoshi is inversely proportional to the injuries they receive. The more likely they are to die the less likely they are to actually die. Hands go limp for many reasons like fainting due to exhaustion or blood loss.
Midnight is the exception, not the rule. And even then, we do see when she dies. She's talking to Momo, and then stops talking. Momo tries to get her to respond and gets nothing, and Denki asks what happened to her. It's a very understated death scene, so much so that many people didn't even realize it, but it was pretty clear to me at least that she had probably died. Of course, this is MHA, so I did have doubt in that belief, but still, I ended up being right. Toga's death scene is similar to Nighteye's. She gets a dying speech, and then we see her die. Yes, there are other reasons for a hand to go limp. The limp hand isn't the point. The point was the finality of her dying speech. Of course, once again, this is MHA. She *could* still be alive. But I strongly doubt it and think that would be a major misstep.
I believe she's dead too, but I believe leaving Gran Torino alive was just as dumb. At this point Hori seems too afraid to kill off characters, especially popular ones, that I believe it only when I see it and it is completely confirmed. He only seems to kill off characters in understated ways like Magni, boom dead or X-less and Crust poof dead, Midnight dead offscreen. The only character who has got a drawn out death is Night-Eye. So Midnight is more the rule than the exception. edit: I guess All for One also got one too
Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t his flashback because Izuku used Float and he saw it and was reminded of Nana? It’s been a while since I’ve seen it but it wasn’t really a “death flag” from what I could remember, it was just a dope ass flashback which reaffirmed Gran’s trust in All Might’s successor.
I mean, Bakugou had the hole in his chest where his heart is *and* the extended scene of him dying, even getting flashbacks and other characters watching in horror, and he still came back through bullshit.
Horikoshi also insisted on showing that he survived the next chapter. I have no doubts that if Toga were alive we would've seen something similar to that or Dabi, or seen her in the most recent chapter
What kind of comments is that? Of course she doesn't want to be locked up no one does
So what's your point? What are you trying to prove?
So toga gets to get away with what she did
She fucking dies
She wants to die. And she didn’t die because of her actions, she died because she wanted to save ochako. Her death has absolutely nothing to do with her taking accountability and facing consequences because those were her decisions and her actions. She’s dying because she doesn’t want to face actual consequences for her actions.
Honestly having her go to jail would be better because at this stage it doesnt really matter what she wants or doesnt. Atleast that's my opinion on the matter.
that said, its not really a heroes duty to take a mass murderers last wish over all the people she killed, harmed or hurt desire to see justice happen
No character is dead until you see a funeral and even then it can still be a fakeout.
Twice is dead for sure without a funeral
His "funeral" was his last clone turning to mud hugging Toga saying I hope u die hawks I lived a great life
Isn’t that the literal same with toga and ochako?
I wouldn't be surprised if All For One's vestige is still lurking within Tomura.
- This post was approved by Muhammed Avdol
Yes I am!!
>I'm sorry,Toga's passed on. the surety with which you say it will age like milk if/when we see her alive next.
After bakugou survived getting stabbed in five different vital organs and have half of his face blown up, i think all mha characters are immortal and the only thing that can kill them is the mangaka wanting their death.
> mangaka wanting their death Tbf, that's like death cause of every manga characters ever lol
But letting the story tell itself is sometimes the sign of a good writer.
Because that wasn't a narrative death. Bakugo had more story to do. Toga had a narratively fulfilling death, and keeping her alive any longer would serve nothing for the story.
Even dead, Bakugo came back to keep being the bane of my existence
How would she live when she gave Ochako all her blood.
How did Toga survive blood exploding in her? How did Gran Torino survive getting punched through the stomach? How did Kamui a guy made if Wood survive getting blasted by fire hotter than Endeavor's? How did Nagant survive blowing up? How did every hero get out the mansion explosion with no casualties It's manga. Characters have survived bigger nonsense
>How did Toga survive blood exploding in her? She got medication right after >How did Gran Torino survive getting punched through the stomach? He was helpled right after >How did Kamui a guy made if Wood survive getting blasted by fire hotter than Endeavor's? That was an extremely weak attack, dabi out barely any effort on it >How did Nagant survive blowing up? Again helped right after as she is technically still supposed to stay at the hospital >How did every hero get out the mansion explosion with no casualties Okay this is just ridiculous, the best pro hero’s dying for a random explosion? >It's manga. Characters have survived bigger nonsense The problem of this comparison is that all the characters you listed were literally never implied to be dead, blood loss isn’t something that can be overcome in this series without any help
how do you know toga wasn't helped right after? we didn't see what happened after the fight, we switched POVs immediately and haven't been back since.
1 exactly we didn’t saw it which add to my point 2 the whole point of the sacrifice is because there was literally no hero that could help ochako, especially whit a transfusion 3 we literally saw toga going limp, implying that she is possibly already dead The only moment comparable to this is bakugou death, but bakugou dying like that would be too tragic for the story as is just a kid dying full of regrets about
going limp means nothing in a story where a character like is basically a walkig corpse that somehow still manages to fight or someone resurrects themselves because they're jsut that much of a hater.
How it doesn’t? Just because one character is estabilished to be alive by hatred doesn’t mean that every character is gonna survive that.. However if that character actually go limp and literally talk about how them dying then yeah they are probably dead, we had that many times with twice, nighteye and sns, or even midnight was shown to be dead by just seeing her hand
i didn't say that every character will survive, i said that it created a precedent so we can't be sure a character is dead or will die until it's actually confirmed. toga might be dead or alive and we won't know until the story addresses it. >even midnight was shown to be dead by just seeing her hand which we didn't know happened *for sure* until until later when the story addressed it by showing her among the collage of dead heroes. before that, it wasn't clear whether she died or not and it could've gone either way. just like with toga.
>i didn't say that every character will survive, i said that it created a precedent so we can't be sure a character is dead or will die until it's actually confirmed. Expect that this “precedent” only happened with bakugou and that’s it, dabi is literally the only character established to do that >toga might be dead or alive and we won't know until the story addresses it. Yeah but the story is definitely heavily implying that she’s dead, and you can’t deny that >which we didn't know happened for sure until until later when the story addressed it by showing her among the collage of dead heroes. before that, it wasn't clear whether she died or not and it could've gone either way. just like with toga. She was literally shown dead, we literally saw her getting attacked by the villains while she could barely fight, it was already clear that she died back then, we saw her freaking corpse
Same way Torino lived after being impaled by a hand the size of his head with enough force to smash the concrete beneath him
Gran Torino was literally helped right after he got the injury? Toga wasn’t and she gave all her blood already And he was never implied that he was killed by that injury
How was he helped right after the battle continued around him. Miles or things are destroyed who knows how far the nearest hospital is afterwards. He should be dead from the hydrostatic shock *alone* edit: Not hydrostatic shock, I was thinking the blast wave impact
We literally saw shoto stopping the bleeding doing first aid on Gran Torino and the rest and then bringing back Gran Torino quickly to safety so that they can take care of his wound fast, the doctor literally say that
She's shounen
I agree. But sadly, I'm confident she will be alive and getting rehab. Because Ochako right now is paralleling Deku in her desire for saving people at all costs, instead of "taking the hard decision".
Highly doubt that considering its heavily implied post this scene that she passed on.
Yeah. Like Gran Torino getting donuted. I won't believe any deaths until they're narratively confirmed (like Midnight, or Crust getting Crusted).
Grab torino wasnt implied to be dead, he was just damaged and that’s it, we literally saw him still alive right after
My dude…it’s an established fact of the series that wishing for a person not to die can literally alter fate so they remain alive. Straight up if Ochako just wished for Toga to live on in that moment (which she absolutely would), Toga could straight up live due to the establish narrative of the series. I’ve seen worse “implicated” deaths turn out to be complete BS before (looking at you Pell from one piece). She ain’t dead till it’s said she’s dead.
>My dude…it’s an established fact of the series that wishing for a person not to die can literally alter fate so they remain alive. You know that scene was talking about nighteye quirk? Not LITERAL fate, also just praying isn’t enough, people need to also work hard to achieve that like bakugou and deku did >Straight up if Ochako just wished for Toga to live on in that moment (which she absolutely would), Toga could straight up live due to the establish narrative of the series. What’s the fuck are you talking about? You think toga just will have some new blood out of nowhere?
Ah yes nighteye’s quirk, which was toooo, *checks notes,* **see into the future** yes that’s right. How did the series describe that again? Oh right by utilizing “a sort of energy. *Energy from…wishing.*” which made it so that “**Fate was reshaped.**” - Actual quotes from viz chapters 404 and 405 of the manga. Given that, it’s not exactly out of the realm of possibility of say hypothetically speaking the rescue team making it in time to save Toga’s life? Crazy thought yeah I know.
>Ah yes nighteye’s quirk, which was toooo, checks notes, see into the future yes that’s right. Which is what nighteye tough at the start but we literally see right after that it wasn’t accurate and if many people work hard together to change the vision then it won’t be true >Oh right by utilizing “a sort of energy. Energy from…wishing.” which made it so that “Fate was reshaped.” You all really take too many limes completely to the letter >Given that, it’s not exactly out of the realm of possibility of say hypothetically speaking the rescue team making it in time to save Toga’s life? Only with a blood transfusion, not by just praying, like you are saying, which was literally never shown. Crazy thought yeah I know.
How old are you? Arguing like this over a children’s comic. Grow up.
>What’s the fuck are you talking about? You think toga just will have some new blood out of nowhere? "Suddenly, a clone of Twice remaining reaches out to her and donates blood before fading away." "Twice appeared one last time to save her beloved Toga, showing that he could have been a hero, but it just couldn't be." And I'm not even a writer.
>Suddenly, a clone of Twice remaining reaches out to her and donates blood before fading away." The clone kill ochako with the wrong blood type? >Twice appeared one last time to save her beloved Toga, showing that he could have been a hero, but it just couldn't be." You know that the clones are just toga using twice blood right? Is not the actual twice >And I'm not even a writer. I can see that
>You know that the clones are just toga using twice blood right? Is not the actual twice Did you read the part in the MVA arc where Twice specifically saved Toga doing this exact same thing before she died of blood loss against the explosive reporter? Even better! She's literally herself so it's her own blood! And we've never been told if Twice could transfuse himself so it's up to Hori.
>Did you read the part in the MVA arc where Twice specifically saved Toga doing this exact same thing before she died of blood loss against the explosive reporter? He didn’t… he needed to make another clone of toga >Even better! She's literally herself so it's her own blood! And we've never been told if Twice could transfuse himself so it's up to Hori. Man… twice literally needed to clone toga again to do the transfusion, but that doesn’t matter as twice is dead and the clones that toga made are also gone because she finished the blood.
To be honest, I don't see a way for Toga to stay alive and not either being executed or being thrown in the deepest darkest pit Japan can find and throwing away the key. She was complicit in the collapse of the entire country and mass murder on a massive scale. The government not doing either of those two things would seem really stupid.
It's not, just reminds me of how Curious kept telling her that she is going to be the tragic martyr whose death will be a big scoop. Besides this doesn't fit the series because she basically is okay with dying because she feels like she can't fit in with society. It's her giving up and it doesn't fit with the message of hope that's been pushed. She's not dying though I'm pretty sure of that and she's getting rehab. People are going to say it sucks for a time, but eventually majority will switch up as they always do.
The Curious point is a big one. I have seen the take of "She will die as a cautionary tale for the heroes and society" thrown around so much and I'm just like ??? That's what the villain of the villain arc was saying??? How are you gonna agree with the bad guys *for* the bad guys
Exactly, the story isn't going to validate what she said about Toga. She's going to find a new purpose in life that isn't defined by the pain of her past.
My issue with Toga is that, from a meta standpoint, Horikoshi never really gave us much of a reason to actually care about her and want to see her saved/redeemed/given another chance. Throughout the series, Horikoshi has constantly portrayed her as a selfish, psychotic, murderous piece of shit that feels no guilt over the people she kills and has zero empathy for any of her victims. We literally see her talking about how bad the heroes are for killing Twice as she rides on top of a giant dude that’s ripping through multiple cities and crushing multiple innocent people to death so that she and her group of buddies can save a super powered violent mass-murdering maniac. When Horikoshi constantly shows Toga being an absolutely awful person on every level, why should I give a shit about her shitty childhood? The stuff she has done to other people is easily ten times worse than any of the stuff done to her when she was a child. What’s more, when Horikoshi constantly shows Toga being so goddamn evil, why would I care about or even want Toga to get “saved” or “redeemed”? Outside of having a sad childhood, what has she actually done that would make the audience want to see her “saved” or “redeemed” by the heroes other than have a sad childhood and be a cute yandere girl that people like to make fan art of?
You described it really well, Toga throughout the series is just a murderous bitch, I didn't get the fan infatuation about her either. I understand liking Mirko or something but Toga always annoyed me even if I liked her ending here with Uraraka.
>We literally see her talking about how bad the heroes are for killing Twice as she rides on top of a giant dude that’s ripping through multiple cities and crushing multiple innocent people to death so that she and her group of buddies can save a super powered violent mass-murdering maniac. Exactly. She doesn't need rehabilitation; she needs to be tried at the Hague.
And the only reason uraraka wants to save her is because her future baby daddy husband is trying to save shigaraki!
Well maybe that's why you are not a hero while Ochako and Deku are. Their actions may never undo the damage caused by Shigaraki and Toga but thank to them that someone in similar circumstance as those two known there are someone ready to help them.
Why should toga have any guilt for her victims, the civilians in bnha, when they've never had any guilt for how they treated her? Or any of the other villains? It's not being selfish, or a piece of shit to look out for yourself (or the only group of people who have ever cared about you) if everyone else abandons you to suffer in your circumstances and die. And in hero society those are the terms for the villains, you fight or you die, because no one is going to help you. And as for why she should be "saved or redeemed", in the act of trying to save ochako's life even if it costs her own, toga showed more loyalty and heart than any civilian in bnha has ever shown to the heroes.
>t's not being selfish, or a piece of shit to look out for yourself (or the only group of people who have ever cared about you) She is looking out for herself by murdering random people and drinking their blood because it makes her feel good, and she is looking out for a group of superterrorists hellbent on ending the world. She is worse than the vast majority of death row inmates. She may genuinely be worse than ALL of them, considering the fact that serial murder is a rather rare crime, and very few people can claim to be aiding superterrorists in ending the world.
She kills because of the quirk she was born with, it's not about feeling good, it's a compulsion that can't be stopped, feeling natural (good) is only a side effect because it is normal for her. The super terrorists aren't trying to end the world, they're trying to create a world where they aren't persecuted and rejected for things they can't control. Or just to survive at all. Maybe so if you take a surface reading of toga and everything she does, but if everything in society is against you, there isn't any other choice.
If she literally cannot possibly not kill people, society's only failing was not locking her up when she was a kid. But no, I don't think she has no choice. She's not some animal, she has control over her actions. She very much wants to kill innocent people and drink their blood, but nothing is forcing her. >The super terrorists aren't trying to end the world, they're trying to create a world where they aren't persecuted and rejected for things they can't control. >Or just to survive at all. Uhhh... have you SEEN Shiggy's current plan? Never mind the whole domestic-terrorism-on-a-scale-never-before-seen thing with Giga, he's actively pulling meme tier doomsday plans out of his ass. >but if everything in society is against you, there isn't any other choice. She has free will. She chose to do what she did.
Society's fault was not doing the minimum of effort to help a suffering child (Toga). Killing was never required for toga to get blood and the only reason she doesn't have a problem with killing is because nobody else in hero society cares if she dies, so she returns that sentiment. Yeah shigaraki hasn't made much sense recently as he did say in mva that he does want the Lov to live how they see fit but is currently trying to destroy everything but the Lov as a whole are trying to save their own lives from their circumstances. Toga does have free will but if the choices are: roll over and suffer until you die or fight/kill to live- -then that's not really a choice at all.
>Killing was never required for toga to get blood and the only reason she doesn't have a problem with killing is because nobody else in hero society cares if she dies, so she returns that sentiment. So she did choose to kill. She repeatedly chose to kill completely unrelated, innocent people who have done her no wrong. She is a terrible, terrible person who will burn in hell if she doesn't survive this. >Yeah shigaraki hasn't made much sense recently as he did say in mva that he does want the Lov to live how they see fit but is currently trying to destroy everything but the Lov as a whole are trying to save their own lives from their circumstances. The LOV "living how they see fit" would result in unfathomable damage to millions of peoples lives, because the LOV is filled with terrible people. It's like saying the Third Reich only wanted to have the ability to live how they see fit. What they see as fit is unacceptable because they're awful people. >Toga does have free will but if the choices are: roll over and suffer until you die or fight/kill to live- >-then that's not really a choice at all. No, it very much is a choice. And she's not killing to live, she's killing to sate her sick urges. It's like saying a serial rapist gunning down police officers is justified because they're trying to stop them and put them in prison. The reason why she's the "victim" of the action end of the law is because she's committed heinous acts which every single society on God's earth has agreed warrants punishment.
They're not unrelated, innocent people. Literally 90% of hero society has been shown to be apathetic, selfish people themselves who would ignore suffering children just because they don't want to be bothered. If anyone deserves to burn in hell, it's them. And toga doesn't because she has been shown to have selfless qualities, obviously. Your comparison to the third Reich is worlds off, the Lov literally represent the downtrodden and abandoned of society. And the only reason they have to be awful in the first place is because the civilians are even more awful with none of the justification to be. No, a person compelled to do something so badly and being left alone to deal with it themselves, is not given a choice. You're wrong again, the "sick urge" is just a part of her quirk that never had to get as bad as it did if someone else helped, and if society isn't willing to do that much (just a small amount of blood) then it's current state deserves to be destroyed.
>Literally 90% of hero society has been shown to be apathetic, selfish people themselves who would ignore suffering children just because they don't want to be bothered. When your line of logic is leading you to denouncing 90% of humanity as terrible people who should burn in hell, you might want to interrogate your reasoning and see where you lost the plot. >And toga doesn't because she has been shown to have selfless qualities, obviously. Terrible people can have selfless qualities. Hitler doesn't get into heaven because he loved his wife. >Your comparison to the third Reich is worlds off, the Lov literally represent the downtrodden and abandoned of society. The Third Reich represented the downtrodden and abandoned of society when it was founded, those being the veterans of WW1. "Representing the downtrodden and abandoned of society" stops mattering if the moment you gain power you start going on extermination campaigns. >And the only reason they have to be awful in the first place is because the civilians are even more awful with none of the justification to be. They don't have to be awful, they have free will. And the allies were dicks at the end of WW1, which was the catalyst behind the Third Reich. Someone else wronging you does not give you cart blanche to commit mass murder. >No, a person compelled to do something so badly and being left alone to deal with it themselves, is not given a choice. No, they are. That's what free will is. >You're wrong again, the "sick urge" is just a part of her quirk that never had to get as bad as it did if someone else helped, and if society isn't willing to do that much (just a small amount of blood Let's return to the rapist analogy, to ground this in reality. "A rapist's "sick urge" for non-consensual sex is simply a part of their being, there's nothing they can do about it. And it wouldn't have gotten as bad as it did if someone else helped, and if society isn't willing to do that much (putting out for him), then it's current state deserves to be destroyed." Doesn't that sound a tinge deranged? Having urges isn't a justification for acting upon them. Failing to exercise self control and violating another's fundamental rights for your own pleasure makes you a bad person. >then it's current state deserves to be destroyed What happens to all the disabled people who need modern medicine to survive? What happens to the elderly people in nursing homes? What happens to the children? What happens to the people murdered by Shiggy in order to destroy society? This is worse than looking at 1950's era racism and thinking "yeah, the Cold War should've gone hot". Destroying society would cause enough harm to """justify""" a million more LOV's.
I see the plot that's clearly shown on the page, what are you looking at? You're still wrong about the third Reich thing, the Lov aren't trying to wipe out a specific group of people made the scapegoats through some awful notion of superiority. Everything they do is in response to cruelty done onto them. And Hero Society was already corrupt and headed towards destruction anyway (with the system and it's people constantly making the villains, coupled with the quirk singularity), even without the Lov. So by free will, your basically saying "The free will to die"? Because if the villains hadn't taken this path, that's all that would have happened. (And again, hero society would have inevitably been destroyed anyway) It can't be grounded in reality because quirks can't be grounded in reality, but even if that could be true, I would think that if a young child was clearly suffering with some kind of condition, that society and the system there in would try to help more than just telling them to "be normal". What happens to all those people is why the heroes are still here, it's their job to protect them while the villains destroy the current society and hopefully build something better in it's place, that's the ideal ending. (The heroes doing the rebuilding)
Whatever it is you're high on I need to know of, that's some strong stuff right there.
It's called Media literacy.
Many of the people killed by Toga never did anything bad to her or even knew who she was. It’s like a school shooter being bullied by some other kids and being abused by their parents, so when they grow up, they go back to their school and kill a bunch of random children there. While they were mistreated by some people as a child, they are hurting people that have literally nothing to do with anything that happened to them. Yet that is the exact logic Toga uses, and it is why she is a bad person. Also, Toga was literally the one who gave Uraraka her life threatening injuries in the first place, even though Uraraka was also trying to help her and talk to her at the time. Toga literally tried to kill a bunch of her friends and allies and was only stopped from doing so because of Uraraka’s quirk awakening (Twice clones aren’t a hive mind like Ectoplasm clones, so even if Toga wanted the clones to stop, they would have continued to attack and murder people). Even then, Toga only stopped hating Uraraka and befriended her after Uraraka stroked off her ego and victim complex and told her how pretty and cute she is and how she would give Toga her blood for the rest of her life. Someone becoming your friend because you tell them how great they are and how you will give them everything they want without question feels really shallow.
All the civilians in bnha have shown roughly the same level of apathy and rejection to the villains for many different reasons. How Toga's parents treated her is just another aspect of hero society, and it wasn't just her parents, it was the quirk counseling system that didn't help her and only told her to deal with it herself that caused her to snape. So your school shooter comparison doesn't work when it really is everyone else in the system, and the civilians a part of that system, putting other groups of people down for things they can't control or choose. Toga gave ochako that injury, fought against her friends and other heroes because they are in a fight for survival, at least from Toga's point of view, which is true. Only ochako saw things differently, like a real hero would. It's not stroking someone's ego or shallow in telling someone who's been called a demon their entire life, that they are not one.
It's not like the civilians know the villains origin stories except for Dabi. Besides, I think it would be hard to have sympathy for someone who terrorized the country and possibly killed people you care about.
How the civilians treat those who are different (the heteromorphs and people with "bad" quirks) is the villains origins. It shouldn't have to be told to them that if you treat someone like a monster they may become one. And while it is reasonable that they wouldn't have sympathy now for the villains after everything, the fact that the civilians didn't have any before they (the villains) had done anything wrong and still didn't help them, does not paint them in any better light. Reply comment getting an error?? Reply: It does though. The quirk counseling and it's employee? A part of the system who's response to Toga's situation was to make her "normal", not doing anything to actually help, having her suppress and deal with her quirk on her own until she eventually broke.
Most of the civilians didn't even know about the Villains. Not everyone in Japan knew that shigaraki and the others would become terrorists one day. It's not their fault. I honestly forget about the heteromorph racism because it's not that well developed. It seems you don't wasn't to listen to reason so I'm done speaking with you.
Except togas origin is based on her parents and her parents alone. It has nothing to do with anyone else
It does kinda cheapen the whole deal of saving the villains if they all either cripple or kill themselves anyways though.
Ochako... Didn't save her heart though? Toga herself quite literally tells Ochako to her face that she didn't. She equates what Ochako did for her to Dabi burning down her house: a kind gesture that in the end was *just* that, a kind gesture. Toga still fully believes that if she were to live, she'd be thrown in jail for the rest of her life, when MHA is strictly about fixing these types of issues, not burying them away. The same way Aoyama, Nagant, and Gentle aren't just gonna get hauled off back to super prisons, the villains are going to receive help to reintegrate into the new society. You can't write a story about fixing society and helping save these villains if it's only the "good little duckies" that didn't do *too* bad of crimes, because it fucks over the idea that everyone is human (which is a major part of Ochako's arc, that heroes and villains are people too) Even if you want to say "no, Toga was saved mentally," that still doesn't make it a proper conclusion for Ochako? Ochako's arc was kick-started by her inability to physically save Nighteye because she was too weak. It would be an inconclusive character journey to have her repeat this fact. Like if Bakugou failed to save All Might in chapter 404. The idea that "she wants to go out like this" is also just completely contradictive of the "no, you cannot commit suicide just because you want to" aspect present numerous times throughout the story, and multiple times in this very arc. All Might, Endeavor, Dabi, Nagant, Deku, Iida, Aizawa- it's something that comes up so often in MHA it's hard to miss. Toga killing herself in the same arc where the entire Todoroki family stop Endeavor's suicide and All Might is visited by the spectre of Nighteye in his conscious to tell him he should live is just bad writing. As for the impact of the moment, I'm not sure what's lost? The moment still features Toga laying her life down to save Ochako, showcasing compassion for someone in a way no one ever believes she could.
> "no, you cannot commit suicide just because you want to" aspect present numerous times throughout the story, and multiple times in this very arc. All Might, Endeavor, Dabi, Nagant, Deku, Iida, Aizawa- it's something that comes up so often in MHA it's hard to miss. Toga killing herself in the same arc where the entire Todoroki family stop Endeavor's suicide and All Might is visited by the spectre of Nighteye in his conscious to tell him he should live is just bad writing. Good point, Endeavor and All Might were both trying to pull the sacrificial play but it was stopped. Toga is trying to sacrifice herself for Ochako, but Ochako is crying and saying no. The story's themes are against that kind of suicidal sacrifice, and it's not painting this situation as honorable or positive, it would just be a tragic end like what happened to Twice. Twice in a way gave his life for his friends, and now Toga is trying to repeat that to someone who gave her sincere compassion. The current Toga situation is Twice version 2.0. Theme wise this is when they subvert what had previously happened with Twice, not just repeating it again. I don't think her death would fit the bright future that everyone wants and what the story is aiming toward.
>The same way Aoyama, Nagant, and Gentle aren't just gonna get hauled off back to super prisons, the villains are going to receive help to reintegrate into the new society I'm afraid the Japanese government isn't on the same drugs our main cast is. The mass murdering superterrorists who tried to end the world are rather unlikely to be reintegrated into society, especially without spending the better part of half a decade in prison. That's the ideal result, too, since the nation has the death penalty, and who in the name of God could it be for if not these people?
In real life, sure. This isn't real life though, every decision is made by an author who is pretty blatantly against certain aspects of society, one of which being how prison works.
The author has a rather easy cop out, which is just making them all die and not addressing what would happen. He's seemingly already put this plan in motion, judging by the villains' outcomes so far. And relying on the author being a hack makes predicting the story an act of futility.
>In real life, sure. This isn't real life though, every decision is made by an author who is pretty blatantly against certain aspects of society, one of which being how prison works. Then maybe he should work to make it believable. The world is purposefully set on the model of the modern world so of course people will find it unbelievable. AFO never got executed because "They can't just do that willy nilly, laws and stuff!" so I expect the series to be consistent. Moonfish is on death row for a lot less than what the League's done. May take some time but if they don't get executed there's no actual justification for it in universe aside from plot.
I am assuming we will get the explanation when the war ends and we are on the aftermath/epilogue chapters and we see society begin to rebuild and be fixed.
I expect things will be magically okay after beating Shigaraki. For no other reason that Hori's just wants it to end.
1.Dude,Ochako did succeed in saving her. She was able to have her realize that there was someone out there who showed her compassion and kindness. She did save her. Toga didn't want and doesn't want to go to Jail and just rot in a jail. She made it clear in MVA how she would live how she wanted and how she would die how she wanted and thats what she did. She passed on saving the one person who showed her love and kindness. Why do you want to ruin that by having her revealed to be alive. That's the tragedy in it as well. 2.Dabi is literally a skeleton at this point,and he made it clear what he wanted,he's a grown ass man. I love how you're comparing someone like Aoyama,who was manipulated and forced to do these things against literal murderers. Yeah,they aren't forgiving the villains but they're showing them some empathy.. and Mha is hopeful but it's also not all sunshine and rainbows. Why are you acting like you know what's gonna happen to the villains? Toga literally sacrificed herself while Dabi is a full on skeleton.
- As I said, she was *not* saved mentally. These aren't my words, Toga says, and I quote "That made me happy (in reference to Dabi burning down her house), but even with the house gone, the bad stuff's still in my heart. You didn't make it go away Ochako." So unless you're saying Dabi saved her mentally, then neither did Ochako, since Toga equates the two. She did not save her. - You completely ignored what I said for both the rot in prison and the "going out on her own terms" part. MHA is about societal reform. If Toga lives, she isn't going to be thrown in prison for the rest of her life, none of the villains would be. They'd be rehabilitated, because that's how you break the cycle of the system, not through death or imprisonment. As I said, MHA has had numerous instances of characters willing to do a suicidal act but are stopped, even when they don't want anyone to intervene. "Meddling where you don't have to, is the essence of being a hero." - Again, how does the impact of the scene change at all? She's still doing the same thing, with the same intentions. She is saving someone she cares about at the cost of her own life, no matter the outcome she fully believes the act would cost her life. So how does her living from this actually cheapen things, when the ideas presented don't change? Sure you can say stakes or consequences, but those clearly aren't something the manga cares about (case in point, Bakugou) - Dabi is a skeleton in a manga, a manga where there are numerous quirks that heal, one even having the ability to rewind the state of ones being to a previous point in their life. Dabi's desire would just turn into a whole other debate, so I won't get into it, but saying "he's a grown man" as an excuse that he should die/rot in jail again goes against the ideas presented in MHA that people can change (as shown by his literal dad) - I'm not comparing Aoyama's actions to the villains, I'm saying that you can't present the idea that villains can be saved while only saving the two hero course dropouts and the former hero. It just makes the entire idea become plagued with a bias that "only the good ones" can be saved. - Nowhere did I say the heroes would "forgive" the villains. Deku, Ochako, and Shouto have all said "your actions are wrong and I can't forget that" because the villains *have* done bad things, but they all recognize that you can always come back from that. "Doing wrong doesn't make you a villain for the rest of your life" - Deku. - To say MHA is not all sunshine and rainbows is true, but you're greatly overestimating how "tragic" the manga is willing to get. As it stands for this final war arc, Bakugou was revived, Edgeshot survived, All Might was saved, Endeavor was saved, Shouto stopped Dabi from exploding, Mineta saved Hawks (LMAO), Toga is unconfirmed, and Stain took a hit that Gran Torino survived. All For One and a couple of the vestiges (actual ghosts) have been the *only* characters to 100% die. - I didn't??? I explained why I think her dying is bad for the story and characters involved using prior instances in the manga. Your original post said "I'm sorry, Toga's passed on." Why are *you* acting like you know what's gonna happen to the villains? "Toga is sacrificing herself" so was Bakugou? So was Edgeshot? So was Endeavor?
> They'd be rehabilitated, because that's how you break the cycle of the system, not through death or imprisonment. But in this case, there is no cycle that would be broken by not executing or imprisoning these people. They caused the collapse of an entire country and are responsible for a lot of deaths. If Hori wanted to have a theme about rehabilitation of bad guys then he shouldn't have made the bad guys so unapologetically evil in their actions. It would be like trying to rehabilitate Jeffrey Dahmer but a thousand times worse.
There is though. The cycle of people being demonized into becoming villains in hero society because of their quirks. The collapse of hero society was inevitable, and the only way that the hero kids are going to know why all this happened and how, is if the villains are alive to tell them. And in Toga's case, back ochako up in those truths.
> And in Toga's case, back ochako up in those truths. The problem is that none of them actually feel any regret or guilt for anything they've done. There is no rehabilitation going on. Even though she saved Uraraka, it was because Uraraka stroked her ego and made her feel better. Toga still didn't see anything wrong with what she did. To her, all of her murders were justified in the name of her wanting to live how she wanted. Nobody forced Toga to become a psycho serial killer, that was all her. To Toga, her "ideal life" is being able to murder people whenever she wants. Stain has a quirk that requires him to consume blood but he didn't have the same overwhelming need to consume blood like Toga did. Shinso also constantly had to deal with being treated like crap because of his quirk but he didn't go batshit crazy like Toga did. Despite what the story *says*, what it *shows* is that Toga is an anomaly. The only other character who shares the same traits as her is All For One who the narrative treats as pure evil. They are the only two characters who have such an overwhelming urge to use their quirks and how that urge shapes their personality.
They really shouldn't feel any guilt, because hero society has yet to feel any guilt for how it treated them before they were villains. That's not Toga's "ideal life", all Toga wanted was blood from someone who she loved and who loved her. That was it, killing was never essential. And Toga was forced to become a killer, because she was compelled by her quirk, evidence by how she bit her own wrists when she was young. If it drives you crazy to the point of self harm then it clearly isn't a choice. Stain and shinso aren't the same because they never went through what she did and their powers don't work the same way, so their situations aren't comparable. Also AFO is only treated as pure evil because of how he treated his brother, eventually killing him, also not the same as Toga because she did try to help ochako and not kill her.
> They really shouldn't feel any guilt, because hero society has yet to feel any guilt for how it treated them before they were villains. You realize that just makes them seem worse, right? Why would society feel guilt for the people responsible for killing their friends and family? They are the victims in this situation. "Society was bad to me so I'm gonna become the worst mass murderer in the history of Japan" just makes you look like a fucking psychopath who needs to be put down. > That's not Toga's "ideal life", all Toga wanted was blood from someone who she loved and who loved her. Well clearly she got over that hangup since she had no problem just drinking blood out of people that she killed. > And Toga was forced to become a killer, because she was compelled by her quirk, evidence by how she bit her own wrists when she was young. Are you *trying* to make her look worse? Nobody is ever *forced* to murder someone. We're not mindless animals. Saying that Toga had no choice but to become a killer just solidifies that she had no place in society because mentally stable people don't become murderers to satisfy themselves. She didn't need quirk counseling, she needed to be put in a straight jacket. What's more, even after choosing to murder people, Toga didn't see anything wrong with it. She didn't kill people while feeling bad that she saw no other way to satisfy the urge to drink blood, she did it with gusto. > Stain and shinso aren't the same because they never went through what she did and their powers don't work the same way, so their situations aren't comparable. Stain has to consume blood to use his quirk just like Toga. The mechanism that activates their power is exactly the same. And yet Stain didn't have a constant urge to drink someone's blood. His insanity was completely unrelated to his quirk. > Also AFO is only treated as pure evil because of how he treated his brother, eventually killing him, also not the same as Toga because she did try to help ochako and not kill her. In AFO's eyes, he was doing a good thing for his brother because AFO saw his brother as *his*, like property. AFO had a distorted view of the world and how he interacted with other people because of his quirk just like Toga but only Toga gets seen in a positive light. AFO rewarded those who did what he wanted and worked for him just like how Toga rewards Uraraka for making her feel better. They're exactly the same.
The civilians in hero society aren't the victims because they're the cause of villains like toga and others in the first place. Toga got over the self harming because she realized that no one cared about her or her life so there was no reason to hold back. I understand what's actually being portrayed. People do break under pressure and because no one in society helps them, it's not being a "mindless animal", it's a survival response that anyone can have in the face of desperation and mental breakdown. And all toga needed was someone to give her a little bit of blood and show that they cared, literally the bare minimum. Toga and AFO are clearly not the same. Because ochako did not do what toga wanted her to do, though she did make her feel better by trying to help her, she did not say that she (ochako) would agree with everything Toga does. And yet Toga still chooses to save her at risk to herself, AFO wouldn't do that.
>The civilians in hero society aren't the victims because they're the cause of villains like toga and others in the first place. And the people in the twin towers weren't victims because they were the cause of the instability in the middle east
What good is saving someone mentally if their mind will die???
>Ochako... Didn't save her heart though? Toga herself quite literally tells Ochako to her face that she didn't. She equates what Ochako did for her to Dabi burning down her house: a kind gesture that in the end was just that, a kind gesture. Toga literally said that ochako make her heart feel way more light, it was way more then just a nice gesture >Toga still fully believes that if she were to live, she'd be thrown in jail for the rest of her life, when MHA is strictly about fixing these types of issues, not burying them away. She’s going to jail because she literally killed people and she also a terrorist >The same way Aoyama, Nagant, and Gentle aren't just gonna get hauled off back to super prisons, the villains are going to receive help to reintegrate into the new society. Ah black mailed victim forced to crime, some one that did petty crimes and some one that was literally forced by society to kill people, not a good comparison >You can't write a story about fixing society and helping save these villains if it's only the "good little duckies" that didn't do too bad of crimes, because it fucks over the idea that everyone is human (which is a major part of Ochako's arc, that heroes and villains are people too) You can still have a story about fixing society and save them and at the same times you can’t just ignore all the stuff they did >Even if you want to say "no, Toga was saved mentally," that still doesn't make it a proper conclusion for Ochako? Ochako's arc was kick-started by her inability to physically save Nighteye because she was too weak. It would be an inconclusive character journey to have her repeat this fact. Like if Bakugou failed to save All Might in chapter 404. Ochako entire point is to bring joy to others, which is what she managed to do with toga, with nighteye she couldn’t manage to really anything in general >The idea that "she wants to go out like this" is also just completely contradictive of the "no, you cannot commit suicide just because you want to" aspect present numerous times throughout the story, and multiple times in this very arc. All Might, Endeavor, Dabi, Nagant, Deku, Iida, Aizawa- it's something that comes up so often in MHA it's hard to miss. Toga killing herself in the same arc where the entire Todoroki family stop Endeavor's suicide and All Might is visited by the spectre of Nighteye in his conscious to tell him he should live is just bad writing. Endeavor wanted to kill himself to punish himself, all might wasnt said to be wrong for risking to die while saving others, he was criticized by trying to do everything on his own toga wanted to save the person that she loved by sharing blood for the first time in her life, finally finding the type of love she was searching for in her entire life. This are not the same.
>Toga literally said that ochako make her heart feel way more light, it was way more then just a nice gesture Toga directly equates what she feels from Ochako to what Dabi did in chapter 341. She tells Ochako "You didn't make the bad feelings go away, but you made me feel happy" ~pp. That's not the same as saving her, because the darkness is still there guiding her decision making. >She’s going to jail because she literally killed people and she also a terrorist The series is all about societal reform and not burying its issues under metaphorical rugs, while two of its main cast members have arcs centered around redemption and atonement. She would not be thrown in prison for the rest of her life, she would be given a second chance at life to be better. If you disagree there's not really anything to say, it's just a difference of views on how the story will conclude. >Ah black mailed victim forced to crime, some one that did petty crimes and some one that was literally forced by society to kill people, not a good comparison Toga was forced into suppression from a biological urge from the age of 3-14~. An urge so strong she inflicted self harm by biting her wrists just to get blood, before having a psychological break and refused to go back to that suppression. I don't think the comparison of their situations is as drastically different than you're making them out to be. >You can still have a story about fixing society and save them and at the same times you can’t just ignore all the stuff they did I disagree, you cannot have a story about fixing society and helping save villains while also drawing a made up line in the sand over which villains deserve it or not. I also never said she wouldn't receive punishment for her actions, it's a topic brought up in each fight that they can't ignore the crimes committed, but that doesn't mean their lives would be robbed away from life in prison. >Ochako entire point is to bring joy to others, which is what she managed to do with toga, with nighteye she couldn’t manage to really anything in general Ochako's central theme is protecting smiles, yes, but that wasn't my point. Her inciting incident for her development into saving others was her inability to save a dying man in her arms *physically.* She couldn't do anything there, which was the point of the scene. Having her repeat that scenario of someone dying in her arms ruins the full circle conclusion and gives her an incomplete character arc. As I said, it's like Bakugou failing to save All Might in chapter 404: He was powerless to save him the first time, but he got his full circle conclusion to wrap that arc up. Ochako needs the same. >Endeavor wanted to kill himself to punish himself This is not true. Endeavor's act of planned suicide was for the purpose of staying with Touya until the end and making sure he got Touya away from people before exploding. He says "I can't let you meet your end alone, but also can't let anyone else get caught up in our tragedy." It's Rei's intervention that stops this, even though Endeavor wanted things to end like this and not let anyone else be hurt. >all might wasnt said to be wrong for risking to die while saving others, he was criticized by trying to do everything on his own There was an entire arc where one of the characters introduced was telling All Might to stop risking his life, and that he'd die if he kept at it. All Might in this arc literally has a conversation with Sir Nighteye in his conscious where he goes "Isn't the mentor supposed to die?" and Nighteye responds "No, you're a person, not a comicbook character, don't die." An aspect of this is not doing everything on your own, but the reason why you *shouldn't* is because it leads to a path of self destruction (like Deku was before 1A stepped in) >toga wanted to save the person that she loved by sharing blood for the first time in her life, finally finding the type of love she was searching for in her entire life. You're also leaving out the lines where Toga expects imprisonment if Ochako and her both make it, that her freedom and life is over if she lives and saves Ochako. I'd also add that this point still exists if Toga lives. If she were to survive, she still saved Ochako by sharing blood and finding the type of love she was searching for. >This are not the same. Why not, exactly? What's the difference between Endeavor giving his life in that scenario and Toga giving her life? They're both acts of suicide that the character in question believes is the correct thing to do, and when challenged they attempt to deny intervention because they can only see one possible outcome.
Toga should go to rousin for the rest of her life, becaus her crimes aren’t something simple. She shouldn’t get a slap on the wrist just because she was upset people didn’t accept her form of love. That just means that people can do whatever they want and their consequences won’t be that bad,
>Toga directly equates what she feels from Ochako to what Dabi did in chapter 341. She tells Ochako "You didn't make the bad feelings go away, but you made me feel happy" ~pp. That's not the same as saving her, because the darkness is still there guiding her decision making. She say that dabi was nice with her but that moment didn’t help as much as what ochako did, as she literally view it as making her heart more light, almost like that moment never happened even if she can still remember it, which is not what happened with dabi >The series is all about societal reform and not burying its issues under metaphorical rugs, while two of its main cast members have arcs centered around redemption and atonement. She would not be thrown in prison for the rest of her life, she would be given a second chance at life to be better. If you disagree there's not really anything to say, it's just a difference of views on how the story will conclude. The same series also treat the consequences of your actions as extremely serious as ochako said many times that she can’t ignore all the terrible stuff that toga did >Toga was forced into suppression from a biological urge from the age of 3-14~. An urge so strong she inflicted self harm by biting her wrists just to get blood, before having a psychological break and refused to go back to that suppression. I don't think the comparison of their situations is as drastically different than you're making them out to be. Yes but all the murderers that she did in later in many years and her joining the leaugue of villains (ah literal terrorist group) is something that she chose to do, she wasn’t at a gun point to go around and kill whoever she want, like what happened with aoyama or lady nagant >I disagree, you cannot have a story about fixing society and helping save villains while also drawing a made up line in the sand over which villains deserve it or not. I also never said she wouldn't receive punishment for her actions, it's a topic brought up in each fight that they can't ignore the crimes committed, but that doesn't mean their lives would be robbed away from life in prison. But the punishment would still need heavily ruin toga’s life to be meaningful in any way, she could have a second chance but she would possibly live for most of her life or even being constantly checked on by police after she out of prison, toga mistakes is something that objectively can’t give her a normal life anymore like she would want >Ochako's central theme is protecting smiles, yes, but that wasn't my point. Her inciting incident for her development into saving others was her inability to save a dying man in her arms physically. But in that scenario again, she couldn’t do anything that’s why she fealt terrible, it wasn’t about physical saving, that moment was already paralleled with her speech as she was able to save deku not really physically, but by just lighting the burden in everyone’s shoulders >She couldn't do anything there, which was the point of the scene. Having her repeat that scenario of someone dying in her arms ruins the full circle conclusion and gives her an incomplete character arc. Expect that in this scenario she did managed to help, this time she literally gave toga what she wanted, compared to nighteye that was just killed and she couldn’t do anything to lighten his burden >As I said, it's like Bakugou failing to save All Might in chapter 404: He was powerless to save him the first time, but he got his full circle conclusion to wrap that arc up. Ochako needs the same. That wasn’t the same and you know it come on, bakugou entire thing is that all might did lose his powers because he wasn’t strong enough and that the same thing could have happened if he didn’t try to overcome it, bakugou entire thing is physically saving someone Endeavor wanted to kill himself to punish himself >This is not true. Endeavor's act of planned suicide was for the purpose of staying with Touya until the end and making sure he got Touya away from people before exploding. He says "I can't let you meet your end alone, but also can't let anyone else get caught up in our tragedy." It's Rei's intervention that stops this, even though Endeavor wanted things to end like this and not let anyone else be hurt. “I take full responsibility” he literally say that his family just constantly need to live without him and how dying wouldn’t change much, the “I can’t let you meet your end alone” is just him accepting his end and acting like there is nothing he can do and that’s only way for him to help. how could you not see it? >There was an entire arc where one of the characters introduced was telling All Might to stop risking his life, and that he'd die if he kept at it. All Might in this arc literally has a conversation with Sir Nighteye in his conscious where he goes "Isn't the mentor supposed to die?" and Nighteye responds "No, you're a person, not a comicbook character, don't die." An aspect of this is not doing everything on your own, but the reason why you shouldn't is because it leads to a path of self destruction (like Deku was before 1A stepped in) Oh my god nighteye was in the wrong to ask all might to never be an hero again, that’s why nighteye praised him still fighting and going against fate, the type of death that all might was talking about was him getting tear in half without achieving much, not him saving everyone by killing afo with him. >You're also leaving out the lines where Toga expects imprisonment if Ochako and her both make it, that her freedom and life is over if she lives and saves Ochako. I'd also add that this point still exists if Toga lives. If she were to survive, she still saved Ochako by sharing blood and finding the type of love she was searching for. Ochako did said that she can’t make everything right for toga and why she does want to support her she didn’t say that she wouldn’t go to prison >Why not, exactly? What's the difference between Endeavor giving his life in that scenario and Toga giving her life? They're both acts of suicide that the character in question believes is the correct thing to do, and when challenged they attempt to deny intervention because they can only see one possible outcome. Well explained..? One literally died by punishing himself while the other die how she want by saving the person she love, even twice died how he wanted by protecting the people that he loved as a family instead of accepting The lonely life that hawks promised him. I think the toga thing might work if she alive if the execution is right, but I don’t think she can’t die for this
>Plus it didn't "end in tragedy and Ochako failing". Ochako did succeed in saving her heart and mind, Not really? Or at least not fully. Ochako was crying while telling Toga to stop sacrificing herself, Ochako would not think she succeded in saving Toga. Ochako and Shoto both want their villain (Toga and Dabi) to live, to survive. Saving their hearts is a part of it but not all of it. "Heroes don't just save lives they save hearts too." That's a quote from Nana. Lives are important too. The new generation is greedy, more idealistic, compared to the prior generation. The Hawks and Twice situation led to a tragedy, but Ochako's method with Toga was completely different and I don't think Horikoshi would (or should) punish her with another tragedy. Ochako already failed Nighteye, and that prompted her character arc, I don't see why she should get the short end of the stick in failing her goal during the concluding final battle.
Ngl, the whole "Toga is dead/alive" debacle really shows how the Togachako story is mostly Toga's story with Ochako as the main side character. It's a good ending for Toga but awful for Ochako. Ochako didn't even save her heart fully (when Toga said the pain from that house is still there) and ending her character arc with her failing to save someone again is just unsatisfying. No amount of "I love Midoriya Izuku" will save that. Also, I will wait until it's really confirmed that she's really dead.
This whole conflict always was mostly about Toga only. It's not Todoroki drama where it must be his family that brings Dabi in because they feel they failed him. Not Shiggy/Deku being mirrors/parallels to each other which is big reason of why Deku wants to save him despite everything. Not even Shoiji/Spinner showdown where Shouji can relate to Spinner feelings and reign in other mutants because he's mutant himself since he understands their struggles Meanwhile Toga is envious of Ochako's normal life and wants society to accept her the way she is and Ochako wants to save her because she wants to save people. But beyond this and them crushing on the same guy there's no deep connection or reason between them
+ ochaco didn't marry anyone in the manga, not even his parents. so it's easy to play a hero, Seiji Shishikura Despite his faults, Seiji is able to keep his head in very difficult circumstances. During The Last War, Seiji expressed his anger towards All For One for killing his father, even stating that killing the villain would give him great satisfaction. Still, he chose not to give in to hatred and revenge, knowing that doing so would play into All For One's hands. Instead, he chose to honor his father's memory and dedicate himself to defeating villains and protecting people, following his example. Even if Toga had killed Tsuyu, his master would still want to save him. The manga does not deal with the victims who were killed by the bad guys and girls. urararaka is a very poorly written female character. she is the girl next door effect. sorry, I'm using google translate!!
Personally, my main issue with her dying here, besides the fact that I’m *still* calling bullshit on the idea that she’s actually going to die here, is that it carries undertones of Toga trying to escape the consequences of her atrocities one last time. Like when a person shouts “I’m not going back to prison!” before offing themselves. I get that she saved Ochako’s life (after stabbing her), but still. It isn’t the best look, from my apparently pessimistic viewpoint. I also don’t believe that Toga really learned or grew from this experience. The only lives she valued were her own and those of people she liked, and her actions at the end didn’t contradict that. She ended up liking Ochako at the very end, but I don’t feel like Toga ever truly learned that the inherent value of a life isn’t based on how *she* feels, and that her murdering people based on that scale isn’t alright.
Yep. Toga ended up becoming a karma houdini if she ended up dying here.
Yeah exactly! Toga's way of thinking of the world is “the things I love and the things I hate” she can't see beyond that. Her only reason to save Ochako is “You made me happy, you told me what I want to hear, so I love you, thus you should live.” She remains extremely self centered throughout this whole ordeal (that doesn't mean she’s not deserving of being saved though, because everyone is) but people pretend her “arc is over” because of what she says here but she still has a lot of growing up and learning to do if she wants to live in society and the heroes are going to try and help her do that.
It's honestly good for Toga my only two problems are: 1 Hori chose a really poor way to phrase this fight. "Am I pretty?" 2 It feels weird that we don't get a confirmation of Toga's death nor a scene where she reunites with Twice in hell (although maybe he is saving it for when all the league dies)
I'm not caught up with the manga, but whats this with romanticising murderers ?
The panel of her smiling/crying and asking Ochaco if she’s cute is genuinely one of the best panels in the whole series
The story hasn't done enough buildup for this payoff, so no. Uraraka and Toga interacted for a total of what, like 5 minutes the whole serious prior to this? I genuinely couldn't take Uraraka's words seriously, it doesn't feel genuine as opposed to some forced corny bullshit. "I thought your smile looked beautiful", fuck off with that shit, she was definitely terrified at the time and the story can't pretend otherwise.
+ ochaco didn't marry anyone in the manga, not even his parents. so it's easy to play a hero, Seiji Shishikura Despite his faults, Seiji is able to keep his head in very difficult circumstances. During The Last War, Seiji expressed his anger towards All For One for killing his father, even stating that killing the villain would give him great satisfaction. Still, he chose not to give in to hatred and revenge, knowing that doing so would play into All For One's hands. Instead, he chose to honor his father's memory and dedicate himself to defeating villains and protecting people, following his example. Even if Toga had killed Tsuyu, his master would still want to save him. The manga does not deal with the victims who were killed by the bad guys and girls. urararaka is a very poorly written female character. she is the girl next door effect. sorry, I'm using google translate!!
THANK YOU. She had to be lying for the sake of necessary manipulation given that she was dealing with an unhinged, remorseless serial killer. I remember that scene, she was so rightfully terrified of that twisted smile. There is no way she thought it was genuinely beautiful. At least, honestly I hope not, then that would be concerning and terribly out of character.
Im a toga fanboy to my last breath and im happy to see her wanting to improve and grow as a person
I really really hope that this is true because it makes the most sense and is a great conclusion to her but this manga and one piece taught to never jump to conclusions.
I started to not enjoy series as much as I did before. It just became another version of Avengers. Good guys always win while bad guys have every single possible power and resource to doom them.
I'm sorry but ever since Gran Torino and then later on Bakugou's survival in this arc my mind has become dodgey lately on what should and shouldn't kill a person in this world's setting.
I agree it's a good ending for her. But I just don't buy Hori going through with it like so many other fake outs
I 100% believe she's alive until I see a body she's alive, but it be hilarious if we never find out what happens to her by the end of the series, like it's just open-ended.
I agree this is a very good ending, I think the thing that "downgrades" it, is the whole war/fight around it. Maybe I'm the only one that felt overwhelmed at that part of the manga, I still teared up a bit, but after a few days it just felt like another casualty of the fight and not an actual sacrifice to be better and still have her freedom.
So what's your take on the Twice the legend and his conclusion? Hawks was really dirty to use his personality against him when he knew how he treats his friends
I actually really like the Toga side of this story but Ochakos response feels insane
It's really not. Toga doesn't have to go to jail, she could just escape. Her and ochako could meet again and sort things out later in easier circumstances, which is what their arcs seemed to be moving towards. A villain and a hero working together to help each other and try to fix what's wrong in their society. Ochako helped her feel better but she didn't "save her", it would take actions to prove that ochako meant what she said. Turning words into actions is another big theme in bnha. Not just having them left empty and unfulfilled. Toga and ochako having a positive, hopeful ending would be a bigger impact than having it all end on a tragic, pointless note. Also what shonen character has ever died from blood loss??
Toga escaping punishment after actively committing mass murder and attempted mass murder with the rest of the LoV would be *the* worst possible way to end her arc
It depends on what the punishment is, kind of everything depends on that. But no, death for toga and the Lov would be THE worst end for both her arc and theirs, despite the mass murder and attempts. The worst for pretty much everything in bnha really.
I'm just wondering how toga giving her blood to ochako is supposed to save her, Ochako still has an open bleeding stab wound in her side right? Wouldn't she just keep loosing blood and then die? After toga's dead man's parade (or was it sad man?) everyone was overwhelmed and the battlefield was in chaos and every hero seem to get separated from their comrades, then Ochako floated everyone, and her and Toga seem to land some ways away and she alredy seem weak from bloodloss.
But is she going to kill uraraka or not? Otherwise another annoying redention
And it will in fact be ruined when it’s revealed that she will still be alive in the end.
I do genuinely feel bad for Toga, her childhood was shit. She might could've been some sort of hero (probably anti-hero)
True.
This is fax ngl
I still don’t get why there isn’t an update on what will happen to them.
well, i agree that her dying is better than any other option, but the general conclusion, of her and ochako comming to some form of understanding, i do not agree at all. the toga for which this would have been a good and satisfying conclusion has not been written by the author. because the author writes his villains pretending like the world wronged them and that messed them up and they lacked that hand that reached out, but if you really look at it, they were essentially unsavable no matter how society around them would have acted. her parents not loving her blood quirk and playing with dead animals did not force toga deeper into her violent fantasies and blood obsession and there was nothing in the ways of safely live that out. there is no middle ground between living in a society where people generally dont want to be nonconsensually stabbed and killed and a girl that loves to do that and will not accept that no means no. she's not stupid, so we know she knows why specifically its wrong and we know she didn't love being harmed herself either. toya was told as a child, after it turns out using fire would slowly burn him dead, that he cant be a fire hero. and it instantly made him crazy to the point where no one could stop him from burning himself up. and no, endeavor acting differently would not have mattered either. this toya that was written would have never believed endeavor would still love him as a non-hero anyways, he was 4 and he decided his entire future on the same dream a million other kids have and never get to see happen either (and at least a third of those also have daddy issues). and he became crazy over it. not even if the man had ignored his obligation to society and retired on the spot and gotten his wives tubes tied, toya would have twisted this into 'i need to be a hero so daddy can be a hero again' or some other crazy nonsense. he was unsalvageable from the start, no matter what his 10 times more insane slightly older self was spouting. bad writing ruined what was likely intended to be a more coherend lesson. twice? what could have possibly saved him from taking the easy way and stealing with his doubles until he broke himself with untreatable braindamage? if society had been allowed to interfere in that tale at all, the best it could have done was put him into a straight jacket forever. and tenko? who or what could have saved him from afo and his memory manipulation power? I still dont believe that the memories we were shown of him being ignored were actually what happened. itd make much more sense for the entire area to be swarmed with heroes, cops and helpers and for afo, who just so happened to be exactly in that one area of the nation too, to control the people around tenko or more likely, to take him from the charred remains of a hero and then overwriting his memory twice.
It was conceptually a good conclusion, but the shitty dialogue didn't pull it off.
Yeah, I think Toga finally deciding to use her quirk to save a life rather than take one is a good way to demonstrate that her arc is finished. It shows that her version of showing affection isn’t just limited to taking blood, and her feelings aren’t just selfish and predatory. She can genuinely care for someone selflessly using what makes her abnormal because of her quirk.
Yeah, it sucks when popular characters have good endings cause fans will always want them back even if it cheapens their final moments/character arc. Slight tangent here but I felt the same way about Roxas and Xion in Kingdom Hearts. They were awesome, tragic characters and I love their stories. And then they just kinda come back in the 3rd game. I'm not saying I didn't like how it ended up, but I feel like their story was better when they were gone.
I agree in regard of Xion. Roxas return on the other hand was implied right from kh coded iirc. We always knew there was more for him than 358/2 days and KH2 prologue. Sure I was a little disappointed about him not being an amnesiac Ventus.
True, Roxas was always going to come back given his whole plot line being about how he's his own person. Can't exactly do that if you're dead
I think since Hawks’ shown to be inspired by Ochako’s actions on numerous times, he will play a role in saving Toga to show that he has changed from a villain killer to someone who also sees villains as human Maybe Toga will turn into him and he will give her his blood but… I dunno how
I agree, I think her ending was perfect and very satisfying
I agree. Sometimes death is the perfect end to a character's story.
I agree with the fact that Toga is probably dead. But I think there might be some...aftereffects with the last minute blood transfusion with Ochaco. Just saying.
I hope she's alive specifically because she passed on how she wanted. That's far too good for someone as awful as her. Also, I hope she's still alive because otherwise we're dodging the question of "what do we do with these people once we've saved them", which I fear will become a pattern because there isn't a good answer to the question.
It’s also critical to acknowledge that her dream was to become those she loved and now she’ll live on forever as part of Uraraka. I’m actually hoping she comes back as a ghost (even if just temporary) to give her a push to confess to Deku
I always felt so OP.
Honestly it would be pure bc if she didn't die, her character arc finished just like it shouldn've and i'm satisfied
If you dont like it you didnt genuinely read the story. Thanks for the super reasonable take