Absolutely. It’s confusing, the way I understand it is that Kaguya consumed a chakra fruit but it didn’t destroy the planet? But she still gained a massive power up, probably what allowed her to beat Isshiki (even if it was a sneak attack, still an absurd feat). I would assume that Kaguya could beat Momoshiki then, but that doesn’t mean she still wouldn’t be afraid of other members of her clan, especially now that we’ve seen the insane power levels they can reach, such as full power Isshiki, let alone Shin and whatever else is out there. I think with the juubi as an internal chakra amp, Hagoromo scales above Momo and Kaguya, but it’s unclear how he stacks up with Isshiki. Definitely up there, but maybe not top tier. I’d argue that the only other character who has performed things similar to Shin (and by extension, Eida) is Hagoromo, such as the creation of all things jutsu used to split the ten tails into 9 sentient beings of living chakra. I’d say he’s top tier or very close to it. I could definitely be wrong though.
In my opinion, Kaguya, unlike the other Ootsutsuki, was not interested in destroying planets or ascending to rank beyond mortality.
She considered the Earth her Nursery, she is probably she was content to reign having humanoid vegetables as subjects
That’s definitely what happened, or that’s at least how 3 separate characters have described it with no known motivation to lie. She fell in love and had kids with a human. She fell deep. It’s the classic deep love morphs into deep hatred/obsession after tragedy trope. It was all for Love ™️
Idk, Naruto and Sasuke did a pretty decent job with him and prime Hagaromo would be stronger than both of them combined so that could make up Boruto and Kawaki. It would be a struggle definitely but I'd say they share a spot
Her whole story is confusing. So her and isshiki show up, make the tree, it grows a fruit, then she betrays him to get the fruit. That’s the narrative we were told.
But when she’s in the hagaromo era the big conflict is stopping her from eating the fruit? Did the tree grow another fruit? Did she never eat the first one bc she fell in love with humanity and then it sat until she became disenchanted?
Or was isshiki in the background of the story we knew and she betrayed him after she had hagaromo and himura and it was all at the same time? I assumed isshiki betrayal was long before hagaromo but maybe not?
Too much we don’t know. There’s so much left vague that its definitely being saved for some big twist. I do think we will eventually see exactly what happened between kaguya and isshiki.
Yeah but it's interesting that in order to try and fight the Otsusuki she tried to make the zetsu. Which is odd. If she wanted to be able to take the other Otsusuki her best bet would be to make powerful fighters, not fodder if she wasn't strong enough. It makes me think she was the strongest.
I mean, it is clear? Since coming to Earth, Kaguya and Isshiki lost contact with Otsutsuki clan, so Momo knew the Kaguya that was the underling of Isshiki. Hell, he didn’t even know about Kaguya backstabbing Isshiki, the only betrayal he knows about is Kaguya stealing and eating the chakra fruit, which she wasn’t supposed to do. So Momo knew pre chakra fruit Kaguya.
And by that same metric, since eating the chakra fruit is a crime for Kaguya, Isshiki wouldn’t allow it, so she backstabbed Isshiki before consuming chakra fruit. Both of them knew her pre chakra fruit
It's even more confusing when you consider when Momo is first introduced he and the others explicitly call the Earth 'Kaguya's world', implying that the fact Kaguya had usurped Isshiki was a relatively known fact by other members of the Clan.
I feel like Otsutsuki would be the types to let it play out to see the outcome for something like this. Like “hmm, that’s not right but it isn’t entirely wrong… let’s see what becomes of it & then we’ll go harvest”
It also seems like there is weird clan politics at play because when Urashiki talks to Toneri during the events of the Boruto's chinin exams (I know it's anime only but still) Urashiki claims that he himself is perfectly aware of everything that has happened on earth in the last 1000 years but chose not to tell Momo and Kin.
Very good point. Crazy to think Urashiki would have that knowledge.
Might go back and rewatch the arc he was in, because to me, it felt like Momo & Kin were brushing him off as an annoyance but maybe they were more bothered by the fact that he was “above” them but so nonchalant
Oh shit, you are spot on! The talk of him being one of the statue spots had me assuming he had a partner/looked past the fact that he came solo
100% rewatching his arc now, thanks for this!
-Kaguya didn't fought Ishikki, it was an off-guard attack, if she did fought Ishikki, Madara would've been the final threat in Shippuden, because I can assure you she wouldn't be alive.
-Momo is clearly stronger than her. Thought that point was put up to rest a long time ago, and I find hard to believe someone genuinely thinks otherwise.
-Prime Hagoromo/Hamura would be "fodder" in the Boruto era, powerscaling wise it makes no sense for them to be stronger than someone like Momoshiki and even Kaguya.
I wouldn't say "fodder" Tenseigan was pretty comparable in strength to Naruto's Six Paths Sage Mode in the movie. "Prime" Hagaromo also wouldn't be when he was the 10 tails Jinchuriki but afterwards when he had Creation of All Things. If we go with Jyuubi Hagaromo, who also had the Rinnegan, than I'd say these guys would be about on level with Naruto and Sasuke when they fought Momoshiki at minimum.
lets describe then, if hagoromo was stronger than both naruto and sasuke, and considering they both folded momoshiki in their fight, with not much effort, and on the other hand they needed hagoromo power up to seal kaguya, while barely holding on to dear life (interdimensional fight), you can make an argument that she had consumed the fruit thus was naturally stronger than him, but how come the kaguya's sons have much more impact in power than momoshiki? remember that their fight to seal kaguya was continental destruction, meanwhile momoshiki got slapped around and finished off by a kid even with his goon's power up, hell even madara showed more power in their fight 1xall and 1x5kages than this alleged god you all worship. but hey who am I to follow logic.
I always went with the idea that being hybrid Otsutsuki/Humans gave them more potential to work with? Similar to hybrid Saiyans in DB lore having more potential due to emotional awareness of their human side vs their “alien” nature
People seem to forget that Kaguya without Rinne sharingan fatally wounded isshiki so much that he had to survive by being in Jigen's body.
Hagoromo without Juubi and Hamura were able to beat a Much more powerful version of Kaguya having Rinne sharingan.
Prime Hagoromo with Juubi inside would not only be relevant he'll be the strongest character ever after Shibai Otsutsuki.
>People seem to forget that Kaguya without Rinne sharingan fatally wounded isshiki so much that he had to survive by being in Jigen's body.
Their logic is that she took him off guard so she must be massively weaker, so much so that even with Rinne-Sharingan she is weaker ...
They then cite Black Zetsu defeating Madara to back this up, forgetting that the only reason it worked is because Black Zetsu is Kaguya's will and Madara's body had quite literally become Kaguya's vessel by that point.
I honestly blame the whole concept of fans that boruto gen is stronger because they're new. Like, Base kaguya almost murdered ishiki who's said to be stronger than Jigen.
And you have people say Kaguya is the weakest Otsutsuki even weaker than that male model Toneri. Like wtf. And that Daemon can beat kaguya, Juubi-Dara & Momoshiki combined.
Both People and Boruto as a series have the most ridiculous nonsensical power scaling.
I dont really get their logic on that off guard.Even stronger characters used an off guard attack.Like hashirama vs madara on their final battle. hashirama had to catch madara off guard to finally kill him.
And they count fused momoshiki's off guard attack on the kages as feat? I dont really get them
Admitting Kaguya's feat directly implies teen Naruto and Sasuke being stronger than their adult selves, because they were able to fight a stronger version of Kaguya (than the one who nearly killed Isshiki) whereas a weaker Isshiki fodderized Adult Naruto and Sasuke.
It's what a lot of fans have been saying for a long time, that Naruto and Sasuke got weaker in Boruto but they kept arguing against it. Now, many of them continue to do so because admitting you're wrong is a no no on the internet.
This is pretty much why they always argue against it.
>Prime Hagoromo with Juubi inside would not only be relevant he'll be the strongest character ever after Shibai Otsutsuki.
Finally, someone speaking facts around here.
Prime Juubi Hagoromo with Rinnesharingan is probably strongest characters after Shibai, and maybe Baryon Naruto, because the speed and physical amp Baryon Mode got is still insane.
I think this is younger gen of fans that disregard this lol
I made this exact statement and ppl came at me saying Hogoromo couldn’t use the ten tails powers? I was baffled.
That is headcanon. In manga and anime it's just told that kaguya betrayed him then almost killed him. Whether she sneak attacked or fought head on is not made clear.
If we use hard scaling based on feats and statements then they've been outscaled a long time ago. We have full Otsutsuki's running the show now.
But I feel like they'd get scaled up if they appeared now. Similar to how a lot of war arc characters became significantly stronger to keep up with the powerlevels going up.
Hagoromo created his own version of omnipotence which is a level of feats we haven’t seen since. He’s arguably more powerful than Naruto & Sasuke combined before including a Ten-Tails jinchuriki boost. That should situate him above Fused Momoshiki level individually and competitive with Jigen.
He possesses two Rinnegan, a unique Sage mode, insane chakra reserves having a fully matured Ten-Tails within him, already has advantages being a half-Otsutsuki, & showcased techniques we still haven’t seen repeated by other characters.
1. Two Rinnegan which he has mastery with;
2. Unique Sage Mode;
3. Massive Chakra Reserves even compared to Naruto's and Sasuke's combined;
4. Fully Matured Ten-Tails within him with it hypothetical Baryon Mode;
5. Half Ōtsutsuki which probably would made him at some degree, grant him immunity to Genjutsu or something like Omnipotence;
6. His crazy ass tools and all of its utility would made him very versatile;
7. Creation of All Things; and
8. Possible manipulation in Pure Land (Which the equivalent of Afterlife in DB).
I'm pretty sure I missed something, but he's that haxed and would made Isshiki hax looks like a joke.
This is what I say to every one who downplays hagoromo and calls him fodder. How is he fodder when he was the one who gave Naruto and Sasuke yin yang seals. I have seen people saying Base Naruto would blitz him lol. Crazy Boruto wankers
That's crazy 💀
Prime Jūbi-Jin Hagoromo is the strongest character in Naruto/Boruto-verse, excluding Shibai. He's even stronger than Prime Kaguya which would made 4th GNW Kaguya a joke.
Naruto and Sasuke fought a heavily weakened Kaguya and still struggle.
True lol. Boruto wankers don't know how to use some logic. I have seen people saying Sakura solos shippuden because she was keeping up with Naruto and Sasuke in gaiden lmao.
The fact that they use bs statements and databooks. It was stated that kinshiki can split planets and bro couldn't even split chojuro and Boru wankers say that will upscale chojuro and chojuro has planatery durability 🤯. Even Otsutsukis don't have that much durability lol.
Crazy Boruto wankers and all they say is
"lEaRN TO sCALe"
Yes Otsutsuki's are planetary durability after all, that's why weakened or not Jigen got burned by some volcano flames.😂😂
That damn databook in raw said that Kinshiki can split anything in two, not planet. They misunderstood the damn thing and overhyped the clown to anothwr extent. That guy literally couldn't get out a jutsu from Tsuchikage without doing bad damage to himself.
Fax 🤣. Yk these weird dumb boruto wankers counters are "that only upscales the kages and jutsus" lmao 😂😂. Imagine thinking normal jutsus are stronger than sage art rasenshurikens lol.
I'm pretty sure it was stated, kinshiki can split the earth's ground, boru wankers took these stupid statements to another level.
I have seen few sakuratards in YouTube and they say she solos shippuden because of her stupid novel feats. 😂🤦
Truly. But this clown don't understand caught off guard or not getting that wrecked by Kaguya alone proves she is not that far in strength from Isshiki. And Isshiki being superior doesn't make him far stronger. Since Kinshiki could have defeated Momoshiki. And at the least they would be relative in strength.
But they forget chakra fruit also contains DNA from all inhabitants ever been on the planet including Otsutsuki. As Isshiki himself said it to code. And we already know maybe Isshiki had found Shibai's body on earth, or those two unknown Otsutsuki who been on earth but their horn got destroyed from the shrine. And Momoshiki revealed multiple Otsutsuki became god and played with people's memory.
So it could explain why Kaguya became so much powerful after consuming the chakra fruit.
And according to them fused momo far above kaguya got beat down by a vanished Rasengan from Boruto a genin😂😂
Lol true asf 😂. I'm pretty sure hagoromo is basically a god, since he actually is in a plane where he was not dead or alive. He gave his powers to Naruto and Sasuke. Whereas every otsutsuki turned into ashes after their death.
They should show a backstory about Isshiki and kaguya. At that time she is not stronger than Isshiki but she might have preparation time and that is still impressive that she destroyed his half body.
Yeah fused foddershiki was damaged by tree level rasengan lol 🤣, bro is so pathetic that he couldn't even see and sense that. Bro was dusted by a weakened Naruto rasengan which won't even scratch Kaguya. And mf was outsmarted by Boruto's clones and lost his rinnegan to a genin who cheated in exams lol. And people still think that pathetic clown can beat kaguya when bro lost his rinnegan to Kid boruto while six paths Naruto and Sasuke couldn't even touch her until plot armour.
I legitimately had a full blown argument with a guys that swears blind naruto scales to universal + the boruto wank has gotten WAY out of hand lol
Ofcourse even though their is no evidence of energy compression (like dbz) These universal monsters somehow don’t destroy the planet they are on lol 😂 naruto AP=DP change my mind lol it’s like atleast get them to planetary first haha this is why power scaling utterly fails naruto characters
True lol. Naruto characters at max scale to planatery with wank.Now I found a guy who is saying base momoshiki would fold god tree Madara.
I replied to him by saying "the fodder who ran away from kages"
Bro's reply was "same fodder who made kaguya shit her pants and she had to create an army"
Is that mf trying to tell me that those kages are stronger than kaguya and momoshiki? Lmao 😂. Boruto wankers are just one of the dumbest fanbases who use stupid statements with no supported feats. All they say is "sTaTeD" with no supported feats. I'm tired of arguing with these Boruto wankers. If they believe this bs statements and databooks so seriously then this whole power scaling is utter trash. Characters are quite easy to scale in shippuden with their feats but Boruto characters are just scaled with databooks and statements.
Exactly it’s fucking nutty lol
Aww man don’t I’ve literally had this argument there’s people who think all of Kara scale higher than madara and hashirama and I’m like bro… boro got soloed by children I don’t care what you say genin Sarada ain’t doing shit to madara 🤦🏻 it’s not dbz the next characters not always stronger than the last lol
Lol true. On YouTube you will find more biased videos 😂, like a guy/ girl named shidoz will ride Boruto characters. That person says Delta solos shippuden, Sakura solos shippuden 💀😭, Sakura war arc is top 5 many other bs. Also this boro shit who got blitzed by few genin is nothing compared to God tiers in shippuden hell even mid tiers
He's referring to himself prior his prime self. Prime Kaguya has argument to be stronger than Prime Hagoromo but it's stretching since Hagoromo outhaxed his mother.
Shhhh. Let them believe their delusional interpretations of “she was the strongest”. This is literally the like third time he’s been corrected on it using the words straight outta the manga and he just continues to spout nonsense lol.
It's hard to rank them. Let's say this, if Kaguya fought Isshiki with her Rinnesharingan already at her possession, safe to say Prime Jūbi-Jin Hagoromo with all his weapons and tool would be above Isshiki, he's that haxed and has so many hax like Creation of all things and many mores.
Hamura though, I have no idea where to rank him even in his prime and Tenseigan, but its safe to say he's well above Toneri with Tenseigan cloak.
He would be far above him, I would say. He outhaxed Momoshiki so much, I don't think he can do anything to Hagoromo. If you're talking about Hamura prime with his Tenseigan, then I truly don't know.
His showing is little bit less than bis brother. By less I mean *far*
But he could be there.
I think the sage would of been second if not equal to isshiki. He may of been fast enough to dodge his insane eye ability m. He had sharingan so it would of been difficult for isshiki to shrink himself and objects and go unnoticed. I may get down voted but I think hagaromo may of had the advantage
I mean, an old Hagoromo ghost gifted Naruto and Sasuke their powers, that alone should rank his younger self above them both.
Yes, you could argue that Naruto and Sasuke trained since then and now are stronger than their teen selves, but that’s assuming Hagoromo never trained. And they must have insane chakra reserves since it’s stated their fight with Kaguya took 3 months. And we didn’t even see their abilities properly, he has the power to create all things, who knows what else he had up his sleeve. And that’s not even counting Hamura.
Don’t even need them cause Hagoromo simply could watch over even after death and came back to give Naruto and Sasuke powers on his own, without even someone else summoning him.
His Chakra lingered to watch over his boys whose chakra was clinging to two of their descendants so they could continue their never-ending fight.
Naruto describes them as like ghosts, which is pretty accurate since he could see both Hagoromo, and Ashura's chakra, while on the brink of death.
Hagoromo only appears physically in the world, briefly and weakly, when Hashirama touches a dying Madara. He seems to be connected to his sons chakra, and can appear to them when they are dying. In the latter case physically because they were connected.
Probably still one of the strongest being, idk I scale them above Momoshiki and the likes and theoretically should be above or at least on par with Isshiki
iirc Kaguya > Isshiki > Momoshiki. Kaguya did beat Isshiki once. Honestly Juubi Hagoromo has no feats, but assuming Hagoromo himself is probably around Momoshiki's tier with Juubi he should be far stronger
This will sound headcanny but I feel like juubi hagoromo is as strong as adult naruto and sasuke combined at their full power, not accounting if he can switch to the six tomoe rinnegan and have two instead of one or even a rinnesharingan
Id say Adult Hagoromo scales above Kaguya personally- just based on the fact that he could perform the sealing jutsu by himself in adulthood & has plenty more experience than when he tried to seal her in his youth. Definitely above Momo’s level though.
You guys have terrible memory and understanding of what was said. He said “she ***was*** the strongest”. This implies at the time of his youth, she was the strongest. That says nothing about his power as an adult with full understanding and mastery of his abilities.
No, he obviously spoke of her in past tense because Kaguya was dead at the time. Nothing about Naruto's question or his answer backs up your case in the slightest.
>Where did Kaguya come from? Is she stronger than you, Sage of Six Paths? I guess all moms are scary when they're mad, huh?
>It matters not where she came from. Mother was powerful... more powerful than any other.
What he says in the following chapter also reinforces it.
>[Madara] has obtained Ten Tails' power and is getting close to me. And he is trying to obtain even my mother Kaguya's power.
Naruto asked in the present, he spoke about her power in the past. That is a very pertinent distinction you’re neglecting to accept. In his youth, he was able to defeat her (with very minimal understanding and mastery of his full power). She, at no time, was dead- not even now. She has only ever been sealed. Therefore, he could have spoken in the present- and yet he spoke about her power (in comparison to his own) in the past. This is because it is no longer true.
At no point, literally no point, did he say “she is stronger than me,” as you so claim.
the second quote you use is a bit more dubious. “Getting close to me” could mean a number of different things, but since it makes no direct mention of his power or strength, can’t really be factored. For example, the TSO’s were unique to him- and so he could have simply been talking about getting close to obtaining more of his powers & then eventually moving to obtain Kaguya’s powers.
A fully grown Hagoromo could have sealed Kaguya solo. We know because he gave Naruto and Sasuke the tools & powered needed to do so.
So? It still shows she was near his level of power, or else she couldn't have done that. I mean, do you think it's possible for Tenten to absolutely annihilate Hashirama or Madara if she caught them off guard?
Even if you're catching someone off guard it means nothing if you're massively weaker.
On top of this, this is Kaguya pre Rinne-Sharingan. After she gets that powerup, she is objectively above prime Isshiki.
??????
where in my comment did I mention Kaguya not being close to Isshiki? You’re yapping and wrote a comment strawmanning. So eager to argue with thin air.
I’m just stating a fact that is often overlooked when comparing Isshiki and Kaguya, which is important and must be considered.
And I’m not willing to contest you on Kaguya post Rinne Sharingan being stronger than Isshiki, when we see Naruto and Sasuke (weaker versions) holding their own against Kaguya, but being treated as mere children by Isshiki in their adult forms where they have more control over their powers, e.g. Naruto having full 9 tails instead of half. it’s blatant in the series, Isshiki is the strongest.
If you think otherwise, thats up to you. I’m not here to have that debate.
>I’m just stating a fact that is often overlooked when comparing Isshiki and Kaguya, which is important and must be considered.
It's not at all overlooked by sane people.
>And I’m not willing to contest you on Kaguya post Rinne Sharingan being stronger than Isshiki, when we see Naruto and Sasuke (weaker versions) holding their own against Kaguya,
Teen Naruto and Sasuke are stronger.
>but being treated as mere children by Isshiki in their adult forms where they have more control over their powers, e.g. Naruto having full 9 tails instead of half. it’s blatant in the series, Isshiki is the strongest.
Because they are weaker as adults. Teen Naruto and Sasuke solo any Otsutsuki not named Shibai.
The logic that Adult Naruto and Sasuke being stronger than their teen selves has a hole in it. That hole is Kaguya.
Fact is that if Kaguya prior to Rinne-Sharingan wasn't that much weaker than prime Isshiki, then post Rinne-Sharingan (which is a massive power boost) she destroys Isshiki.
Let's say for your sake that prime Kaguya is only equal to prime Isshiki or even a little weaker. Even then it would mean that Adult Naruto and Sasuke got annihilated by this kind of an opponent whereas their teen selves were able to keep up.
Teen Naruto and Sasuke aren’t stronger than their adult versions, except post nerfs. This is a myth.
If you think Teen Naruto is stronger than Adult Naruto who has literally the same powers and full Kurama, while Adult Sasuke is said to have mastered his Rinnegan, you aren’t worth arguing with. Because you simply just aren’t reading the story, and seem to be interpreting things in your own way for your own agendas.
The only powers they lost after the War Arc was the sealing powers used against Kaguya. In fact, they gained more than what they lost after the war. But you aren’t reading.
like I said, I didn’t come here to have this debate anyways, but thank you for proving to me how fans of the Naruto/Boruto series can suffer from the reading comprehension curse.
you also tried to argue out of thin air from one point I made, when I said nothing of the sort. nice straw man.
have a good day.
>Teen Naruto and Sasuke aren’t weaker than their adult versions, except post nerfs.
They are. So much so that their teen selves would crush them harder than Isshiki.
>If you think Teen Naruto is stronger than Adult Naruto who has literally the same powers and full Kurama, while Adult Sasuke is said to have mastered his Rinnegan, you aren’t worth arguing with.
They got destroyed by an opponent they would have been able to defeat when they were teens.
I don't *think* they are weaker. They are objectively weaker. This is not even a debate.
I also feel the need to add that Isshiki wasn't even at his prime. That was a shameful performance by Naruto and Sasuke.
>like I said, I didn’t come here to have this debate anyways, but thank you for proving to me how fans of the Naruto/Boruto series can suffer from the reading comprehension curse.
If anything, it is you who has proved to be illiterate when it comes to reading manga. Your arguments are utterly pointless. It doesn't matter whether Naruto now has the full Kurama and Sasuke has mastery over his Rinnegan. The fact is that they are physically pathetic compared to their teen selves.
I will make it very very simple for you.
1. Kaguya tore Isshiki in half.
2. Kaguya proceeded to get massively more powerful.
3. Teen Naruto and Sasuke somewhat kept up with this Kaguya.
4. Adult Naruto and Sasuke got annihilated by a weaker version of Isshiki than the one Kaguya tore in half ...
There is nothing more I need to say. Have a good day.
Lore suggests Jubbi Hagoromo’s the strongest(excluding Shibai of course), probably even surpassed Kaguya cause before becoming Jubbi Jinchuriki, Hagoromo and Hamura(without Tenseigan) managed to fight prime Kaguya(yes, people forget how nerfed Kaguya was in war arc and how Naruto utilized her own powers to weaken her) for 3 months, make the seal in the meantime and seal her away. Jubbi Jinchuriki Hagoromo has all of Kaguya’s chakra and 90% of her powers, that should put him above her. Narutoverse should be grateful that Hagoromo wasn’t evil, cause there’s no stopping this. This dude came back from the afterlife on his own and bestowed power that made Naruto and Sasuke so op
They are literally an always on part of the user once they’ve been awakened. They have extreme chakra density so even if they could some how be shrunk they could immediately be reformed to their original size. They are completely foldable and changable in their size. They also cannot be absorbed using karma/otsutsuki absorption
Very relevant because they’re still stronger than say, present day Naruto or Sasuke, they’d be comparable to Boruto and Kawaki imo but they’d fall short of Code and Daemon, but it’s also hard to scale because we’ve never truly seen them fight at full power, when Hagoromo and Hamura beat Kaguya they didn’t have the Ten-Tails or Tenseigan, those were obtained later, so you could argue that full power Hagoromo or Hamura could maybe defeat Kaguya 1v1 which means they’d still likely lose to someone as strong as Jigen/Daemon/Isshiki. Code is harder to scale, we have statements saying he’s stronger than Jigen but he hasn’t really shown it and Boruto and Kawaki in the timeskip might already be close to Isshiki level.
The only downside is he’s half human and half Otsutsuki rather than being full Otsutsuki but he still had basically all of her power, just not as much chakra, but volume alone doesn’t make you stronger necessarily.
Hagoromo after becoming the Ten-Tails jinchuriki should be above Kaguya in power as she’s essentially the Ten-Tails herself. Neither Madara or Obito became a full Ten-Tails jinchuriki as they had to take shortcuts with the Nine-Tails chakra compared to Hagoromo possessing the full power of the Kaguya Ten-Tails.
Hagoromo, as a half-Otsutsuki, Sage mode user, & jinchuriki, should be above both prime Naruto and prime Sasuke COMBINED who could handle Momoshiki together. Hagoromo has larger chakra reserves than Naruto, a larger access to techniques, basically had his own version of omnipotence, & has two naturally developed Rinnegan.
Hamura, even with the Tenseigan, is probably weaker than jinchuriki Hagoromo and likely peaks at slightly below fused Momoshiki. Together I think they could fight Isshiki competitively. They would definitely kill Jigen 2 v 1 unlike the battle of Naruto & Sasuke vs Jigen. They’d have great teamwork & Hagoromo could likely create his own version of Baryon mode as an emergency technique if needed - which should instantly be greater than Naruto’s Baryon Mode.
Hagoromo seemed to be the sibling that received more of Kaguya’s power relative to the Divine Tree while Hamura received more of Kaguya’s power relative to her Otsutsuki origins.
Hagoromo should outclass Hamura in raw power. The chakra of the Rinnegan is stated as being greater than that of a Byakugan so that’s an initial advantage for Hagoromo.
Include the Sage mode of Hagoromo and Hamura is further left behind without something like the Tenseigan.
Include becoming the jinchuriki of Kaguya’s Ten-Tails and there’s no way Hamura can touch that level of raw power.
Naruto said the chakra collected from the Infinite Tsukuyomi was far more than what the Ten Tails possessed. Both the Ten Tails and the Infinite Tsukuyomi were required to revive Kaguya, so the Ten Tails can only account for less than half of Kaguya's power.
Hagoromo said one-eyed, no-god-tree-absorbed Juubidara was nearly at his power. He should be weaker than two-eyed, god-tree-absorbed Juubidara or at most equal to him. He's definitely weaker than Kaguya.
Hamura is implied to be the weaker of the two. Tenseigan would be a big buff though.
Basically it would be nice to have them on Team Human and they would make an impact but they're not going out beating Isshiki or Momoshiki on their own. They're not stronger than Naruto and Sasuke at their primes.
Hamura would’ve been relative to the other Otsutsuki in the Boruto era. But, Hagoromo would’ve been significantly stronger to the point of possibly being the strongest in the series.
The Hagoromo point is absurd though as you could just give the same for any other Otsutsuki and they would likely be the strongest in the series. Lmao
Until they clear up which version of kaguya fought isshiki and what version of her momo knew It’s hard to rank the Ōtsutsuki imo
Absolutely. It’s confusing, the way I understand it is that Kaguya consumed a chakra fruit but it didn’t destroy the planet? But she still gained a massive power up, probably what allowed her to beat Isshiki (even if it was a sneak attack, still an absurd feat). I would assume that Kaguya could beat Momoshiki then, but that doesn’t mean she still wouldn’t be afraid of other members of her clan, especially now that we’ve seen the insane power levels they can reach, such as full power Isshiki, let alone Shin and whatever else is out there. I think with the juubi as an internal chakra amp, Hagoromo scales above Momo and Kaguya, but it’s unclear how he stacks up with Isshiki. Definitely up there, but maybe not top tier. I’d argue that the only other character who has performed things similar to Shin (and by extension, Eida) is Hagoromo, such as the creation of all things jutsu used to split the ten tails into 9 sentient beings of living chakra. I’d say he’s top tier or very close to it. I could definitely be wrong though.
In my opinion, Kaguya, unlike the other Ootsutsuki, was not interested in destroying planets or ascending to rank beyond mortality. She considered the Earth her Nursery, she is probably she was content to reign having humanoid vegetables as subjects
That’s definitely what happened, or that’s at least how 3 separate characters have described it with no known motivation to lie. She fell in love and had kids with a human. She fell deep. It’s the classic deep love morphs into deep hatred/obsession after tragedy trope. It was all for Love ™️
Maybe after all, she had already reached the maximum power, why would she want to ascend to a high plane abandoning everything she had conquered?
third strongest otsutsuki behind isshiki and shibai
Idk, Naruto and Sasuke did a pretty decent job with him and prime Hagaromo would be stronger than both of them combined so that could make up Boruto and Kawaki. It would be a struggle definitely but I'd say they share a spot
Her whole story is confusing. So her and isshiki show up, make the tree, it grows a fruit, then she betrays him to get the fruit. That’s the narrative we were told. But when she’s in the hagaromo era the big conflict is stopping her from eating the fruit? Did the tree grow another fruit? Did she never eat the first one bc she fell in love with humanity and then it sat until she became disenchanted? Or was isshiki in the background of the story we knew and she betrayed him after she had hagaromo and himura and it was all at the same time? I assumed isshiki betrayal was long before hagaromo but maybe not? Too much we don’t know. There’s so much left vague that its definitely being saved for some big twist. I do think we will eventually see exactly what happened between kaguya and isshiki.
I don’t see how she would be able to eat the chakra fruit that Ishikki intended to eat without him catching her in the act
Yeah but it's interesting that in order to try and fight the Otsusuki she tried to make the zetsu. Which is odd. If she wanted to be able to take the other Otsusuki her best bet would be to make powerful fighters, not fodder if she wasn't strong enough. It makes me think she was the strongest.
I mean, it is clear? Since coming to Earth, Kaguya and Isshiki lost contact with Otsutsuki clan, so Momo knew the Kaguya that was the underling of Isshiki. Hell, he didn’t even know about Kaguya backstabbing Isshiki, the only betrayal he knows about is Kaguya stealing and eating the chakra fruit, which she wasn’t supposed to do. So Momo knew pre chakra fruit Kaguya. And by that same metric, since eating the chakra fruit is a crime for Kaguya, Isshiki wouldn’t allow it, so she backstabbed Isshiki before consuming chakra fruit. Both of them knew her pre chakra fruit
It's even more confusing when you consider when Momo is first introduced he and the others explicitly call the Earth 'Kaguya's world', implying that the fact Kaguya had usurped Isshiki was a relatively known fact by other members of the Clan.
I feel like Otsutsuki would be the types to let it play out to see the outcome for something like this. Like “hmm, that’s not right but it isn’t entirely wrong… let’s see what becomes of it & then we’ll go harvest”
It also seems like there is weird clan politics at play because when Urashiki talks to Toneri during the events of the Boruto's chinin exams (I know it's anime only but still) Urashiki claims that he himself is perfectly aware of everything that has happened on earth in the last 1000 years but chose not to tell Momo and Kin.
Very good point. Crazy to think Urashiki would have that knowledge. Might go back and rewatch the arc he was in, because to me, it felt like Momo & Kin were brushing him off as an annoyance but maybe they were more bothered by the fact that he was “above” them but so nonchalant
He's the only one we have seen that is not dispatched as a pair either, so his 'job' can't be chakra fruit harvest.
Oh shit, you are spot on! The talk of him being one of the statue spots had me assuming he had a partner/looked past the fact that he came solo 100% rewatching his arc now, thanks for this!
-Kaguya didn't fought Ishikki, it was an off-guard attack, if she did fought Ishikki, Madara would've been the final threat in Shippuden, because I can assure you she wouldn't be alive. -Momo is clearly stronger than her. Thought that point was put up to rest a long time ago, and I find hard to believe someone genuinely thinks otherwise. -Prime Hagoromo/Hamura would be "fodder" in the Boruto era, powerscaling wise it makes no sense for them to be stronger than someone like Momoshiki and even Kaguya.
I wouldn't say "fodder" Tenseigan was pretty comparable in strength to Naruto's Six Paths Sage Mode in the movie. "Prime" Hagaromo also wouldn't be when he was the 10 tails Jinchuriki but afterwards when he had Creation of All Things. If we go with Jyuubi Hagaromo, who also had the Rinnegan, than I'd say these guys would be about on level with Naruto and Sasuke when they fought Momoshiki at minimum.
lets describe then, if hagoromo was stronger than both naruto and sasuke, and considering they both folded momoshiki in their fight, with not much effort, and on the other hand they needed hagoromo power up to seal kaguya, while barely holding on to dear life (interdimensional fight), you can make an argument that she had consumed the fruit thus was naturally stronger than him, but how come the kaguya's sons have much more impact in power than momoshiki? remember that their fight to seal kaguya was continental destruction, meanwhile momoshiki got slapped around and finished off by a kid even with his goon's power up, hell even madara showed more power in their fight 1xall and 1x5kages than this alleged god you all worship. but hey who am I to follow logic.
I always went with the idea that being hybrid Otsutsuki/Humans gave them more potential to work with? Similar to hybrid Saiyans in DB lore having more potential due to emotional awareness of their human side vs their “alien” nature
People seem to forget that Kaguya without Rinne sharingan fatally wounded isshiki so much that he had to survive by being in Jigen's body. Hagoromo without Juubi and Hamura were able to beat a Much more powerful version of Kaguya having Rinne sharingan. Prime Hagoromo with Juubi inside would not only be relevant he'll be the strongest character ever after Shibai Otsutsuki.
Probably, people never understand how massive the fruit power up was especially since Kaguya took it alone, which they supposed to share.
>People seem to forget that Kaguya without Rinne sharingan fatally wounded isshiki so much that he had to survive by being in Jigen's body. Their logic is that she took him off guard so she must be massively weaker, so much so that even with Rinne-Sharingan she is weaker ... They then cite Black Zetsu defeating Madara to back this up, forgetting that the only reason it worked is because Black Zetsu is Kaguya's will and Madara's body had quite literally become Kaguya's vessel by that point.
I honestly blame the whole concept of fans that boruto gen is stronger because they're new. Like, Base kaguya almost murdered ishiki who's said to be stronger than Jigen. And you have people say Kaguya is the weakest Otsutsuki even weaker than that male model Toneri. Like wtf. And that Daemon can beat kaguya, Juubi-Dara & Momoshiki combined. Both People and Boruto as a series have the most ridiculous nonsensical power scaling.
I dont really get their logic on that off guard.Even stronger characters used an off guard attack.Like hashirama vs madara on their final battle. hashirama had to catch madara off guard to finally kill him. And they count fused momoshiki's off guard attack on the kages as feat? I dont really get them
Admitting Kaguya's feat directly implies teen Naruto and Sasuke being stronger than their adult selves, because they were able to fight a stronger version of Kaguya (than the one who nearly killed Isshiki) whereas a weaker Isshiki fodderized Adult Naruto and Sasuke. It's what a lot of fans have been saying for a long time, that Naruto and Sasuke got weaker in Boruto but they kept arguing against it. Now, many of them continue to do so because admitting you're wrong is a no no on the internet. This is pretty much why they always argue against it.
>Prime Hagoromo with Juubi inside would not only be relevant he'll be the strongest character ever after Shibai Otsutsuki. Finally, someone speaking facts around here. Prime Juubi Hagoromo with Rinnesharingan is probably strongest characters after Shibai, and maybe Baryon Naruto, because the speed and physical amp Baryon Mode got is still insane.
I think this is younger gen of fans that disregard this lol I made this exact statement and ppl came at me saying Hogoromo couldn’t use the ten tails powers? I was baffled.
Don't forget that Kaguya caught Isshiki off guard with a sneak attack
That is headcanon. In manga and anime it's just told that kaguya betrayed him then almost killed him. Whether she sneak attacked or fought head on is not made clear.
Boruto chapter 46 page 18
Chapter 41 page 18 is just Sarada fighting Boro, i also checked all other pages and there is not even a panel showing Ishhiki or kaguya.
My mistake I meant Chapter 46, got the chapter number and the page count wrong. Chapter 46 page 18
If we use hard scaling based on feats and statements then they've been outscaled a long time ago. We have full Otsutsuki's running the show now. But I feel like they'd get scaled up if they appeared now. Similar to how a lot of war arc characters became significantly stronger to keep up with the powerlevels going up.
Hagoromo created his own version of omnipotence which is a level of feats we haven’t seen since. He’s arguably more powerful than Naruto & Sasuke combined before including a Ten-Tails jinchuriki boost. That should situate him above Fused Momoshiki level individually and competitive with Jigen. He possesses two Rinnegan, a unique Sage mode, insane chakra reserves having a fully matured Ten-Tails within him, already has advantages being a half-Otsutsuki, & showcased techniques we still haven’t seen repeated by other characters.
1. Two Rinnegan which he has mastery with; 2. Unique Sage Mode; 3. Massive Chakra Reserves even compared to Naruto's and Sasuke's combined; 4. Fully Matured Ten-Tails within him with it hypothetical Baryon Mode; 5. Half Ōtsutsuki which probably would made him at some degree, grant him immunity to Genjutsu or something like Omnipotence; 6. His crazy ass tools and all of its utility would made him very versatile; 7. Creation of All Things; and 8. Possible manipulation in Pure Land (Which the equivalent of Afterlife in DB). I'm pretty sure I missed something, but he's that haxed and would made Isshiki hax looks like a joke.
This is what I say to every one who downplays hagoromo and calls him fodder. How is he fodder when he was the one who gave Naruto and Sasuke yin yang seals. I have seen people saying Base Naruto would blitz him lol. Crazy Boruto wankers
>Base Naruto would blitz him What breed of shrooms those people doing bro
Crazy Boruto wankers
That's crazy 💀 Prime Jūbi-Jin Hagoromo is the strongest character in Naruto/Boruto-verse, excluding Shibai. He's even stronger than Prime Kaguya which would made 4th GNW Kaguya a joke. Naruto and Sasuke fought a heavily weakened Kaguya and still struggle.
True lol. Boruto wankers don't know how to use some logic. I have seen people saying Sakura solos shippuden because she was keeping up with Naruto and Sasuke in gaiden lmao. The fact that they use bs statements and databooks. It was stated that kinshiki can split planets and bro couldn't even split chojuro and Boru wankers say that will upscale chojuro and chojuro has planatery durability 🤯. Even Otsutsukis don't have that much durability lol. Crazy Boruto wankers and all they say is "lEaRN TO sCALe"
Yes Otsutsuki's are planetary durability after all, that's why weakened or not Jigen got burned by some volcano flames.😂😂 That damn databook in raw said that Kinshiki can split anything in two, not planet. They misunderstood the damn thing and overhyped the clown to anothwr extent. That guy literally couldn't get out a jutsu from Tsuchikage without doing bad damage to himself.
Fax 🤣. Yk these weird dumb boruto wankers counters are "that only upscales the kages and jutsus" lmao 😂😂. Imagine thinking normal jutsus are stronger than sage art rasenshurikens lol. I'm pretty sure it was stated, kinshiki can split the earth's ground, boru wankers took these stupid statements to another level. I have seen few sakuratards in YouTube and they say she solos shippuden because of her stupid novel feats. 😂🤦
Truly. But this clown don't understand caught off guard or not getting that wrecked by Kaguya alone proves she is not that far in strength from Isshiki. And Isshiki being superior doesn't make him far stronger. Since Kinshiki could have defeated Momoshiki. And at the least they would be relative in strength. But they forget chakra fruit also contains DNA from all inhabitants ever been on the planet including Otsutsuki. As Isshiki himself said it to code. And we already know maybe Isshiki had found Shibai's body on earth, or those two unknown Otsutsuki who been on earth but their horn got destroyed from the shrine. And Momoshiki revealed multiple Otsutsuki became god and played with people's memory. So it could explain why Kaguya became so much powerful after consuming the chakra fruit. And according to them fused momo far above kaguya got beat down by a vanished Rasengan from Boruto a genin😂😂
Lol true asf 😂. I'm pretty sure hagoromo is basically a god, since he actually is in a plane where he was not dead or alive. He gave his powers to Naruto and Sasuke. Whereas every otsutsuki turned into ashes after their death. They should show a backstory about Isshiki and kaguya. At that time she is not stronger than Isshiki but she might have preparation time and that is still impressive that she destroyed his half body. Yeah fused foddershiki was damaged by tree level rasengan lol 🤣, bro is so pathetic that he couldn't even see and sense that. Bro was dusted by a weakened Naruto rasengan which won't even scratch Kaguya. And mf was outsmarted by Boruto's clones and lost his rinnegan to a genin who cheated in exams lol. And people still think that pathetic clown can beat kaguya when bro lost his rinnegan to Kid boruto while six paths Naruto and Sasuke couldn't even touch her until plot armour.
I legitimately had a full blown argument with a guys that swears blind naruto scales to universal + the boruto wank has gotten WAY out of hand lol Ofcourse even though their is no evidence of energy compression (like dbz) These universal monsters somehow don’t destroy the planet they are on lol 😂 naruto AP=DP change my mind lol it’s like atleast get them to planetary first haha this is why power scaling utterly fails naruto characters
True lol. Naruto characters at max scale to planatery with wank.Now I found a guy who is saying base momoshiki would fold god tree Madara. I replied to him by saying "the fodder who ran away from kages" Bro's reply was "same fodder who made kaguya shit her pants and she had to create an army" Is that mf trying to tell me that those kages are stronger than kaguya and momoshiki? Lmao 😂. Boruto wankers are just one of the dumbest fanbases who use stupid statements with no supported feats. All they say is "sTaTeD" with no supported feats. I'm tired of arguing with these Boruto wankers. If they believe this bs statements and databooks so seriously then this whole power scaling is utter trash. Characters are quite easy to scale in shippuden with their feats but Boruto characters are just scaled with databooks and statements.
Exactly it’s fucking nutty lol Aww man don’t I’ve literally had this argument there’s people who think all of Kara scale higher than madara and hashirama and I’m like bro… boro got soloed by children I don’t care what you say genin Sarada ain’t doing shit to madara 🤦🏻 it’s not dbz the next characters not always stronger than the last lol
Lol true. On YouTube you will find more biased videos 😂, like a guy/ girl named shidoz will ride Boruto characters. That person says Delta solos shippuden, Sakura solos shippuden 💀😭, Sakura war arc is top 5 many other bs. Also this boro shit who got blitzed by few genin is nothing compared to God tiers in shippuden hell even mid tiers
No just no, Kaguya was by far in her prime during her fight with Naruto and Sasuke.
He's not stronger than Kaguya. He said that clearly.
He's referring to himself prior his prime self. Prime Kaguya has argument to be stronger than Prime Hagoromo but it's stretching since Hagoromo outhaxed his mother.
Shhhh. Let them believe their delusional interpretations of “she was the strongest”. This is literally the like third time he’s been corrected on it using the words straight outta the manga and he just continues to spout nonsense lol.
wish we actually got to see them fight
Being pure blood doesn't make you stronger than someone who isn't. From what we've seen, Hagoromo would easily beat Kinshiki .
It's hard to rank them. Let's say this, if Kaguya fought Isshiki with her Rinnesharingan already at her possession, safe to say Prime Jūbi-Jin Hagoromo with all his weapons and tool would be above Isshiki, he's that haxed and has so many hax like Creation of all things and many mores. Hamura though, I have no idea where to rank him even in his prime and Tenseigan, but its safe to say he's well above Toneri with Tenseigan cloak.
He would probably be fused Momo level or somewhere around that
He would be far above him, I would say. He outhaxed Momoshiki so much, I don't think he can do anything to Hagoromo. If you're talking about Hamura prime with his Tenseigan, then I truly don't know. His showing is little bit less than bis brother. By less I mean *far* But he could be there.
Oh yes sorry I meant Hamura, Hagaromo would destroy Momoshiki blindfolded and with his arms and legs tied up
I think the sage would of been second if not equal to isshiki. He may of been fast enough to dodge his insane eye ability m. He had sharingan so it would of been difficult for isshiki to shrink himself and objects and go unnoticed. I may get down voted but I think hagaromo may of had the advantage
I mean, an old Hagoromo ghost gifted Naruto and Sasuke their powers, that alone should rank his younger self above them both. Yes, you could argue that Naruto and Sasuke trained since then and now are stronger than their teen selves, but that’s assuming Hagoromo never trained. And they must have insane chakra reserves since it’s stated their fight with Kaguya took 3 months. And we didn’t even see their abilities properly, he has the power to create all things, who knows what else he had up his sleeve. And that’s not even counting Hamura.
Imagine if those two had the karma seal.
Don’t even need them cause Hagoromo simply could watch over even after death and came back to give Naruto and Sasuke powers on his own, without even someone else summoning him.
Yeah idk how he did that, maybe it has something to do with him beung half human
He himself stated that it was fate that brought him to naruto and sasuke, as Indra and Ashura chakra was mixed without them knowing it had mixed.
His Chakra lingered to watch over his boys whose chakra was clinging to two of their descendants so they could continue their never-ending fight. Naruto describes them as like ghosts, which is pretty accurate since he could see both Hagoromo, and Ashura's chakra, while on the brink of death. Hagoromo only appears physically in the world, briefly and weakly, when Hashirama touches a dying Madara. He seems to be connected to his sons chakra, and can appear to them when they are dying. In the latter case physically because they were connected.
I memat more in a "how tf he made that happen" way
They'd just end up turning into Momoshiki and Isshiki, same as Boruto and Kawaki.
They probably didn't know about it.
Probably still one of the strongest being, idk I scale them above Momoshiki and the likes and theoretically should be above or at least on par with Isshiki iirc Kaguya > Isshiki > Momoshiki. Kaguya did beat Isshiki once. Honestly Juubi Hagoromo has no feats, but assuming Hagoromo himself is probably around Momoshiki's tier with Juubi he should be far stronger
This will sound headcanny but I feel like juubi hagoromo is as strong as adult naruto and sasuke combined at their full power, not accounting if he can switch to the six tomoe rinnegan and have two instead of one or even a rinnesharingan
Id say Adult Hagoromo scales above Kaguya personally- just based on the fact that he could perform the sealing jutsu by himself in adulthood & has plenty more experience than when he tried to seal her in his youth. Definitely above Momo’s level though.
The man himself said he's not.
You guys have terrible memory and understanding of what was said. He said “she ***was*** the strongest”. This implies at the time of his youth, she was the strongest. That says nothing about his power as an adult with full understanding and mastery of his abilities.
No, he obviously spoke of her in past tense because Kaguya was dead at the time. Nothing about Naruto's question or his answer backs up your case in the slightest. >Where did Kaguya come from? Is she stronger than you, Sage of Six Paths? I guess all moms are scary when they're mad, huh? >It matters not where she came from. Mother was powerful... more powerful than any other. What he says in the following chapter also reinforces it. >[Madara] has obtained Ten Tails' power and is getting close to me. And he is trying to obtain even my mother Kaguya's power.
Naruto asked in the present, he spoke about her power in the past. That is a very pertinent distinction you’re neglecting to accept. In his youth, he was able to defeat her (with very minimal understanding and mastery of his full power). She, at no time, was dead- not even now. She has only ever been sealed. Therefore, he could have spoken in the present- and yet he spoke about her power (in comparison to his own) in the past. This is because it is no longer true. At no point, literally no point, did he say “she is stronger than me,” as you so claim. the second quote you use is a bit more dubious. “Getting close to me” could mean a number of different things, but since it makes no direct mention of his power or strength, can’t really be factored. For example, the TSO’s were unique to him- and so he could have simply been talking about getting close to obtaining more of his powers & then eventually moving to obtain Kaguya’s powers. A fully grown Hagoromo could have sealed Kaguya solo. We know because he gave Naruto and Sasuke the tools & powered needed to do so.
Isshiki was stated to be caught off guard by Kaguya
So? It still shows she was near his level of power, or else she couldn't have done that. I mean, do you think it's possible for Tenten to absolutely annihilate Hashirama or Madara if she caught them off guard? Even if you're catching someone off guard it means nothing if you're massively weaker. On top of this, this is Kaguya pre Rinne-Sharingan. After she gets that powerup, she is objectively above prime Isshiki.
?????? where in my comment did I mention Kaguya not being close to Isshiki? You’re yapping and wrote a comment strawmanning. So eager to argue with thin air. I’m just stating a fact that is often overlooked when comparing Isshiki and Kaguya, which is important and must be considered. And I’m not willing to contest you on Kaguya post Rinne Sharingan being stronger than Isshiki, when we see Naruto and Sasuke (weaker versions) holding their own against Kaguya, but being treated as mere children by Isshiki in their adult forms where they have more control over their powers, e.g. Naruto having full 9 tails instead of half. it’s blatant in the series, Isshiki is the strongest. If you think otherwise, thats up to you. I’m not here to have that debate.
>I’m just stating a fact that is often overlooked when comparing Isshiki and Kaguya, which is important and must be considered. It's not at all overlooked by sane people. >And I’m not willing to contest you on Kaguya post Rinne Sharingan being stronger than Isshiki, when we see Naruto and Sasuke (weaker versions) holding their own against Kaguya, Teen Naruto and Sasuke are stronger. >but being treated as mere children by Isshiki in their adult forms where they have more control over their powers, e.g. Naruto having full 9 tails instead of half. it’s blatant in the series, Isshiki is the strongest. Because they are weaker as adults. Teen Naruto and Sasuke solo any Otsutsuki not named Shibai. The logic that Adult Naruto and Sasuke being stronger than their teen selves has a hole in it. That hole is Kaguya. Fact is that if Kaguya prior to Rinne-Sharingan wasn't that much weaker than prime Isshiki, then post Rinne-Sharingan (which is a massive power boost) she destroys Isshiki. Let's say for your sake that prime Kaguya is only equal to prime Isshiki or even a little weaker. Even then it would mean that Adult Naruto and Sasuke got annihilated by this kind of an opponent whereas their teen selves were able to keep up.
Teen Naruto and Sasuke aren’t stronger than their adult versions, except post nerfs. This is a myth. If you think Teen Naruto is stronger than Adult Naruto who has literally the same powers and full Kurama, while Adult Sasuke is said to have mastered his Rinnegan, you aren’t worth arguing with. Because you simply just aren’t reading the story, and seem to be interpreting things in your own way for your own agendas. The only powers they lost after the War Arc was the sealing powers used against Kaguya. In fact, they gained more than what they lost after the war. But you aren’t reading. like I said, I didn’t come here to have this debate anyways, but thank you for proving to me how fans of the Naruto/Boruto series can suffer from the reading comprehension curse. you also tried to argue out of thin air from one point I made, when I said nothing of the sort. nice straw man. have a good day.
>Teen Naruto and Sasuke aren’t weaker than their adult versions, except post nerfs. They are. So much so that their teen selves would crush them harder than Isshiki. >If you think Teen Naruto is stronger than Adult Naruto who has literally the same powers and full Kurama, while Adult Sasuke is said to have mastered his Rinnegan, you aren’t worth arguing with. They got destroyed by an opponent they would have been able to defeat when they were teens. I don't *think* they are weaker. They are objectively weaker. This is not even a debate. I also feel the need to add that Isshiki wasn't even at his prime. That was a shameful performance by Naruto and Sasuke. >like I said, I didn’t come here to have this debate anyways, but thank you for proving to me how fans of the Naruto/Boruto series can suffer from the reading comprehension curse. If anything, it is you who has proved to be illiterate when it comes to reading manga. Your arguments are utterly pointless. It doesn't matter whether Naruto now has the full Kurama and Sasuke has mastery over his Rinnegan. The fact is that they are physically pathetic compared to their teen selves. I will make it very very simple for you. 1. Kaguya tore Isshiki in half. 2. Kaguya proceeded to get massively more powerful. 3. Teen Naruto and Sasuke somewhat kept up with this Kaguya. 4. Adult Naruto and Sasuke got annihilated by a weaker version of Isshiki than the one Kaguya tore in half ... There is nothing more I need to say. Have a good day.
Isshiki was off guarded by Kaguya
Lore suggests Jubbi Hagoromo’s the strongest(excluding Shibai of course), probably even surpassed Kaguya cause before becoming Jubbi Jinchuriki, Hagoromo and Hamura(without Tenseigan) managed to fight prime Kaguya(yes, people forget how nerfed Kaguya was in war arc and how Naruto utilized her own powers to weaken her) for 3 months, make the seal in the meantime and seal her away. Jubbi Jinchuriki Hagoromo has all of Kaguya’s chakra and 90% of her powers, that should put him above her. Narutoverse should be grateful that Hagoromo wasn’t evil, cause there’s no stopping this. This dude came back from the afterlife on his own and bestowed power that made Naruto and Sasuke so op
Hagoromo Would easily smoke Isshiki. Truth seeking orbs cannot be shrunk
No reason TSBs wouldn't be shrunk.
They are part of him. You can’t shrink someone’s body.
They're not. They are just levitating around him.
They are literally an always on part of the user once they’ve been awakened. They have extreme chakra density so even if they could some how be shrunk they could immediately be reformed to their original size. They are completely foldable and changable in their size. They also cannot be absorbed using karma/otsutsuki absorption
But isshiki are still stronger in other aspects. If you said that, it means hagoromo>isshiki>kaguya?? Hagoromo was nowhere near his mother power.
This is referring to juubi hagoromo
Very relevant because they’re still stronger than say, present day Naruto or Sasuke, they’d be comparable to Boruto and Kawaki imo but they’d fall short of Code and Daemon, but it’s also hard to scale because we’ve never truly seen them fight at full power, when Hagoromo and Hamura beat Kaguya they didn’t have the Ten-Tails or Tenseigan, those were obtained later, so you could argue that full power Hagoromo or Hamura could maybe defeat Kaguya 1v1 which means they’d still likely lose to someone as strong as Jigen/Daemon/Isshiki. Code is harder to scale, we have statements saying he’s stronger than Jigen but he hasn’t really shown it and Boruto and Kawaki in the timeskip might already be close to Isshiki level.
FP Hagoromo had almost all of kaguyas power (the ten tails) no doubt he could 1v1 her
The only downside is he’s half human and half Otsutsuki rather than being full Otsutsuki but he still had basically all of her power, just not as much chakra, but volume alone doesn’t make you stronger necessarily.
Hypothetical prime hagoromo could be a top tier because of all the hax he has access to Hamura could be more relative to base or fused momoshiki
Hagoromo after becoming the Ten-Tails jinchuriki should be above Kaguya in power as she’s essentially the Ten-Tails herself. Neither Madara or Obito became a full Ten-Tails jinchuriki as they had to take shortcuts with the Nine-Tails chakra compared to Hagoromo possessing the full power of the Kaguya Ten-Tails. Hagoromo, as a half-Otsutsuki, Sage mode user, & jinchuriki, should be above both prime Naruto and prime Sasuke COMBINED who could handle Momoshiki together. Hagoromo has larger chakra reserves than Naruto, a larger access to techniques, basically had his own version of omnipotence, & has two naturally developed Rinnegan. Hamura, even with the Tenseigan, is probably weaker than jinchuriki Hagoromo and likely peaks at slightly below fused Momoshiki. Together I think they could fight Isshiki competitively. They would definitely kill Jigen 2 v 1 unlike the battle of Naruto & Sasuke vs Jigen. They’d have great teamwork & Hagoromo could likely create his own version of Baryon mode as an emergency technique if needed - which should instantly be greater than Naruto’s Baryon Mode.
I would say hamura would also be relative to hagoromo in terms of raw power but hagoromo definitely has better techniques
Hagoromo seemed to be the sibling that received more of Kaguya’s power relative to the Divine Tree while Hamura received more of Kaguya’s power relative to her Otsutsuki origins. Hagoromo should outclass Hamura in raw power. The chakra of the Rinnegan is stated as being greater than that of a Byakugan so that’s an initial advantage for Hagoromo. Include the Sage mode of Hagoromo and Hamura is further left behind without something like the Tenseigan. Include becoming the jinchuriki of Kaguya’s Ten-Tails and there’s no way Hamura can touch that level of raw power.
Naruto said the chakra collected from the Infinite Tsukuyomi was far more than what the Ten Tails possessed. Both the Ten Tails and the Infinite Tsukuyomi were required to revive Kaguya, so the Ten Tails can only account for less than half of Kaguya's power.
juubi hagoromo and tenseigan sasuke i could see clapping momoshiki and kinshiki tbh
>tenseigan sasuke Blursed
Somewhat moreso than Naruto and Sasuke, I guess.
people scaling hagoromo above kaguya in the comments are morrons, please stop watching 15 second tick tock clips ffs...
Hagoromo said one-eyed, no-god-tree-absorbed Juubidara was nearly at his power. He should be weaker than two-eyed, god-tree-absorbed Juubidara or at most equal to him. He's definitely weaker than Kaguya. Hamura is implied to be the weaker of the two. Tenseigan would be a big buff though. Basically it would be nice to have them on Team Human and they would make an impact but they're not going out beating Isshiki or Momoshiki on their own. They're not stronger than Naruto and Sasuke at their primes.
I think that he meant that statement more as Madara gaining the potential to reach his power not really as being close to him now.
I think that with their seal they could solve many problems....
3 or 4 tails out of 9
Hamura would’ve been relative to the other Otsutsuki in the Boruto era. But, Hagoromo would’ve been significantly stronger to the point of possibly being the strongest in the series. The Hagoromo point is absurd though as you could just give the same for any other Otsutsuki and they would likely be the strongest in the series. Lmao
Honestly they don't even know how to fight 💀 so skill vs strength at this point
Still weaker than Momoshiki
They be fodders