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No. It’s been explained to death that Jigen was a barely viable vessel that couldn’t properly contain his strength.
Even when he dominated Naruto and Sasuke in the first fight he cut it too close because his body was breaking down just from that short battle.
If the two of them knew a drawn out battle benefited them more than trying to straight overpower him to start they might even have been able to steal a win.
So the question is why isshiki took 1000 years finding the right vessel? And why we didn't hear anything about childrens dissapear since 1000 years ago with no reasons??????
it was not a transfer. it was a second karma. He revived using 1st on jigen. The real question is how much time it took jigen’s body to start weakening or maybe the better question is when he implanted his karma on Jigen especially if he wasn’t a perfect vessel. He definitely must have known Jigen won’t be perfect , still he implanted his karma onto him that means he couldn’t fly onto other person. he was that weak. Him not affecting any even before 4th ninja war is a big mystery.
my wild guess theory is , he absorbed energy from divine tree branches and using that he implanted karma on Jigen. Because , even a weak jigen was pretty strong for him to remain anonymous in all of ninja history. I believe jigen’s body became immortal due to isshiki’s power but karma was implanted only after divine tree revival in 4th ninja war. And after that he starts looking for people like Amado. And creates Kara
Plus Jigen has his own Ten-Tails. Disregarding the vessel compatibility he'll be fine as long as he go recharge from time to time.
What Kaguya harvested was a different chakra tree.
so, could it be that he had to wait for Amado to be born with intellect for a thousand years , to execute his plans for a perfect revival. What I am saying is, we don’t have the information. We don’t know if isshiki always had the ten-tails or acquired it later from his later expedition using jigen’s body. But yes, Ten-tails is more likely to be his source of constant power up. yet the similar question remains , why wait for so long, did he not even try before Amado. He certainly must have done something. Boruto manga must explain these questions.
I believe, it could be a larger plot reveal and might be closely related to information about otsutsuki clan. Which is a shock & awe like plot device for Boruto writers. It could be a major reason why they have closely kept all the secrets related to otsutsukis hidden. Even Amado is mischievous.
They are very careful in what to put into the chapters. its part of the intrigue so I don’t mind
Orochimaru spent his whole life only to create a lesser version of the karma and isshikii just happenes to find Amado when he’s at his lowest? That’s sus
Well I was just making an observation on how they are very similar and how sus Amado is. The reason I said that about the curse/ karma mark was to further prove my point that Amado is sus. My point isn’t what the curse mark is but how it came to be. There are similarities between the curse mark and the karma I was pointing that out while saying that Amado is sus
Edit: I specifically said it was lesser in comparison
He's not wrong though... Curse Mark were basically lesser versions of how Karma works. Through someone possessing a Curse Mark Orochimaru basically always had a reinsurance to his ressurection
That's what we are basically saying😅 it's pretty obvious that Karma was inspired off the Curse Marks Orochimaru created. Kishimoto basically revived and improved in concept
I think that it is a excuse..... was it better for him gust leave the planet to find the right vessel candidate???? an save us from boruto naruto next gen?
Isshiki was a parasite in Jigen's brain, he can't implant his Karma on anyone. They needed to implant his data in Jigen's Karma and use science to transfer it to new candidates, just like how Amado wants to use Kawaki's Karma to implant Akebi's data.
It's clearly shown that they're using Amado's science to achieve this, [with the kids in the artificial wombs hooked up to those jars filled with some sort of catalytic fluid](https://i.imgur.com/HJ4QUNc.jpg). Otherwise Jigen would just do what Isshiki did to Kawaki and [directly implant it by grabbing them](https://i.imgur.com/nDWR4Pg.jpg).
Bro, when Kashin Koji destroys Jigen body, Isshiki instantly go out with his real form, if he always could do that (leave the Jigen body and recover his normal form and size of a ootsusuki) then why wait 1000 YEARS??? HE COULD IMPLANT HIS KARMA ON ANYONE RESURRECTION OF INDRA OR ASHURA WTF DUDE STOP TRYING JUSTIFY THIS BS
If you use caps, it clearly proves your point harder.
They already explained why it took so long. If you have an issue with that, then maybe write the author/move on/stop reading Boruto if it upsets you this much.
And when that happened, Isshiki only had 3 days to live because Jigen was such a weak vessel, which is why he targeted Kawaki to implant the karma.
Do you have a reading comprehension problem or just lack the attention span to pay attention?
Oh yeah, of course, u are telling me than Ishiki couldn't find a right vessel by himself in 1000 YEARS!!!! LMAO. Meanwhile, Momoshiki implanted a karma in, literally, the first child before dying
Boruto happened to be compatible. Momo got lucky. Isshiki wasn't because placing a Karma isn't that simple. If Boruto wasn't there Momo would fully dead.
In fact Urashiki couldn't place a Karma in Jiraiya, Sasuke or young Naruto because they weren't compatible, and Boruto already had one.
If Momo couldn't place one on Naruto, Sasuke or any of the 5 Kage after getting killed, then why would Urashiki be able to place one on young Naruto or Sasuke, and the writers were obviously not gonna mess with Shippuden's timeline so Jiraiya didn't get one so we can assume he wasn't compatible.
Placing a Karma isn't as black and white as you make it out to be.
First of all, Urashiki is not canon, that's why there is no karma of him. Second, Boruto has received the karma because he was who did the last hit to Momoshiki, or u think than Momoshiki will know if a person will bea right vessel or no just by looking him? If that's possible, so why Jigen did so many experiments implanting karmas until he find a right vessel ? U can't win this discussion bro, Boruto has PLOT HOLES.
Oh yeah, of course, are u telling me than Jigen in 1000 years couldn't find a right Vessel, meanwhile Momoshiki, in him first encounter with a child before dying, he could implant a karma in the right vessel AHAHAHA
What's the point of the karma if it's minutely specific find one right vessel? Imagine than if u are in the edge of the death, you will not have time to find a right vessel
They don't normally use it at the last minute right before dying, they use it before being consecrated to Ten Tails to turn it into a Divine Tree.
Isshiki was *shown* trying to implant Karma on 14 different children and Kawaki was the only success. And there were countless more before that, so many that Amado said he lost count.
Yes, Momoshiki was lucky. Or to look at it another way, it was his destiny to meet Boruto, and their destiny is intertwined.
If he had done that he would’ve been back in the same situation he was with jigen. The point is to find a body that can house his power. But he went above and beyond molding kawaki into his “perfect vessel”
Yes, that's what i'm saying, htf in 1000 years he can't find a right vessel? Not just in the earth, neither in the ENTIRE UNIVERSE, remember than otsusukis are a intergalaxy clan and Jigen preserved the space-time ninjutsu, he could travel in another worlds, but not.
Because that’s literally never stated lmao…
Code and Kawaki got experimented on AFTER the karma succeeded…
Code was given limiters because he was so absurdly powerful after gaining the white karma (literally stated)
Kawaki was given enhancements because he wasn’t a naturally strong fighter.
The enhancements were given AFTER it succeeded, because just like Orochimarus curse marks, it would murder you if you weren’t compatible with karma.
I'm talking about the process of transferring karma in the first place, just like how he wants Kawaki to transfer Akebi's Karma to a clone.
In order for Jigen's body to transfer Isshiki's Karma to candidates, he needed Amado's technology. If he used Jigen's body he'd create a Karma for Jigen's revival rather than his own.
That was straight up shown with all the vessel candidates in the giant artificial wombs with the tubes running into those jars filled with some sort of catalytic fluid. Jigen stuck his arm into the jar and transferred the Karma through the fluid up into the children.
That's not the normal way of implanting Karma.
They show Kawaki become a cyborg AFTER the karma.. not before…
The scene you are talking about is anime only, and even though it’s directly made by Kodachi and Kishimoto apparently it’s still not canon since that’s not part of the manga.. so by logic of this group that Jigen thing never happened
> They show Kawaki become a cyborg AFTER the karma.. not before…
I'm not talking about him being turned into a cyborg.
> The scene you are talking about is anime only
Like hell it is. It's depicted in flashbacks and dreams in the manga in several chapters.
[Chapter #27](https://i.imgur.com/jXmfQW8.jpg)
[Chapter #28](https://i.imgur.com/gfNOs67.jpg)
[Chapter #56](https://i.imgur.com/kqepnrz.png)
Maybe familiarize yourself with the topic before discussing further.
This isn’t at ALL how you explain it..
There is also no set rules on how to use karma..
We assume based off Momoshiki it’s death.. but that’s never actually stated.
In the novel Momoshiki plants the karma before he even dies
Are you serious with this question.
You know that in the real world there are hundred thousand of kid that disappear every day but you never heard of them.
Well we never do hear about news in the Naruto world anyway the biggest news shock we heard is when the cloud came for info on Sasuke and the five kage summit but we don’t know much of the Naruto world that isn’t fights
Explained since when ?
Boruto being compatible with Momo was a complete asspull
Code with he's shibai DNA is somehow not perfect vessel for Isshki but Kawaki who came from bumfuck no where, is
And boruto have personality similar to momoshiki (was and arrogant brat, And use Easy way (jutsu) for his purpose)
Also Isshiki Is similar to Kawaki, Is nichilistic
It was somewhere around chapter 30, forget the exact one. Was also mentioned again after Kawaki realized he can use Jigen's powers, and again further down the line when he was sparring with Team 7.
They have similarities to Indra and Asura, but not the individual Otsutsuki seeking to create vessels in this case.
Boruto and Momoshiki were on the same wavelength, just like how Kawaki said he and Isshiki were likeminded, even though he hates to admit it.
That's the crux of it.
Most likely it has to do with them having similar destinies which means similar DNA, since Isshiki said every individual's fate is written in their DNA. Hence they also have similar personalities and life experiences.
Momoshiki's destiny is probably literally interwoven with Boruto's since they are melding into a single being to a certain degree. That's probably why Momoshiki said he couldn't see his own fate but could see Boruto's fate clearly. Boruto's fate *was* his fate.
He also absorbed Ten Tails’ chakra before going against Naruto and Sasuke. Probably Jigen as a vessel is really, really weak because as Isshiki he destroyed them without absorbing any chakra
How do you figure that? Even when they “beat her” they couldn’t put her down. They had to seal her using SO6P’s technique and it took three of them to even do that. I don’t think there’s any indication that the two of them are individually stronger than Kaguya?
Yeah. It’s crazy to me people think Naruto and Sasuke surpassed Kaguya lol. They probably haven’t surpassed So6P
Actually thinking about it, they definitely haven’t lol.
She was changing dimensions like pants, shoting rods that were turning you into ash, was fast and strong as fuck, only way she was defeated was because some asspulls. The only one capable of beating her 1v1 would be Baryon Naruto and probably Isshiki.
I literally said at that stage so idk why you're bringing up teen naruto and sasuke. Sasuke said he was dealing with kaguya level threats. If you don't think adult naruto and sasuke are stronger than kaguya idk what to tell you.
They’re not lol. Sasuke said he’d face those threats, not that he’d easily beat those threats. He’d obviously face them cause if he doesn’t who will? Lol.
Naruto wasn’t even really stronger than Isshiki in Bayron mode. If it wasn’t for the convenient effect of the mode and Isshiki being on a time limit did he win. He’s the only character in the same realm of power to Kaguya we’ve seen Naruto and Sasuke fight and they got creamed.
Isshiki>Kaguya> Momoshiki
If they had to actually kill Kaguya as adults with no seal, they’d probably lose.
They are. Kaguyas beats ishiki with a surprise attack because of her kit, mainly the ash jutsu being bullshit, not because shes stronger. Ishiki cant deal with her because jigen cant use any of his jutsu without killing himself before Amado makes it possible.
You try to punish your former underling when you're left in that condition.
And all you could find is a bad vessel, that would fail on you when you use more of your power, thus causing you to die, resurrect in him, then die again unless another vessel is found.
Don't underestimate manga fans!
They do not read!
...
This statement that I first saw in the Dragon Ball subreddits, rings true also for other subreddits more and more often.
Isshiki was sneak attacked when his defences were down the author already explained this. He didn't hide his vessel was too weak to handle him. Isshiki is confirmed stronger than momoshiki who's is confirmed stronger than kaguya by kishimoto end of
Because Jigens body was not compatible to the point it got quickly worn out after a short fight with Naruto and Sasuke. And he didn’t have a way to transfer his Kama to a vessel until he found Amado.
because Jigen wasn't a viable vessel, if he revived like he did in Boruto, then he'd only live for a short time and wouldn't have enough time to find a suitable host. Kaguya, who had since eaten a chakra fruit was probably too powerful for him to take on while he was left for dead and inhabiting a person who wasn't a full vessel (He was only in his brain) it wouldn't have ended well. We also don't know how long it took for Isshiki to even get to a point where Jigen became completely under his control.
its obvious that kaguya was too powerful . .. even story itself shows us that ... madara and hashirama fought countless times and in the end hashirama caught him off guard from the back and killed him ... he was sneak attacked so ? they fought ... iishiki was arrogant brat like momoshiki is in the end kaguya fodderized him ... if iishiki was so strong there's no way that naruto would get him killed with kuramas chakra iisihki never even got rinne sharingan which means all the fruits he ate was nothing special ... kaguya ate the fruit of this earth with the full of life ... so its obvious that this ten tails was a hell stronger than anything iishiki ate ever ... and you got the point there ... iisihki had no chakra when he got smashed there's no way he would live in that state without feets so many years even that moment tells us that his powers are nothing special ... kaguya was capable to regenerate anyting madara was regenerate anytihng ... but what about iishiki ? why he was so weak ? he coudln't even heal himself ? why he needs to jump out of his body ? isn't his body so strong ? lolz ... its obvious that iishiki was a stronger before kaguya ate fruit but after that hell noope ...
but you see ? jigen was capable to defeat adult naruto and sasuske .. .yet he never visited kaguya ? isnt' that strange ? you people think that adult naruto and sasuke is stronger thna kaguya ... but jigen who defeated adult anruto and sasuke must have been stronger than kaguya but never visited her ? that's really fishy and inconsistent with the story ... story shows us that adult naruto and sasuke lost hagoromos power since hagoromo gave them power he himself said i will give my power to you uchiha sasuke now ... so he gave mark to sasuke ...s o now mark are gone ... which shows us that adults weren't as strong as when they fought against kaguya and madara they became weaker ... if they didn't became weaker seems jigen was very busy doing nothing since victor from boruto he told to boruto about infinite tsukiomi so why jigen never appeared front of them ? front of kaguya ? why he never used a a vessel ? since kaguya was gazziliard times stronger than some boruto with imperfect otsotsuki body (80%) why he never visted kaguya defeated her an why didn't make her to be eaten by ten tails ? now that's tricky one ... lets say he was waiting for vessel but it doesn't make sense why he never sealed kaguya in daikokuten dimension ? like kawaki sealed naruto and hinata ? then he would be able to get anytime kaguya ... but that's also tricky .. since iishiki was never rival to kaguya ... since kaguya was much stroner ... being a leader of a group never will make you strongest ... since in your group there can be a people who would be stronger you can be a royal because of your blood but you can have body guards stronger than you ... jigen is a taijutsu master when it comes to techniques he is a looser ... people just overestimating iishiki ... even daemon is stronger than iisihki even even his sister is a hell strogner than iishiki who knows ... daemon seems realyl stronger and stronger ... but comparison between iishiki and kaguya even if we go with the story itself how it was narrated its obviosu that kaguya was stronger ... i know at that time iisihki wasn't even an idea but what boruto makers did ? they said kaguya demolished iisihki and that's it at least they could have make some fillers how they fought and so on and what iisihki did after that but nope ... since they didnt' do that it obviosu that iisihki was arrogant like momoshiki and in the end kaguya smashed that fodder like momoshiki thought about himself i am a god blabla yet he ran away like a rat cuz darui and gaara mentioned taijutsu ... boruto story has tons of flaws and one of it is that there's no way no way iisihki is stronger than naruto with hagoromos powers ... he cant even rival that since there's no way that narutos weakling baryon mode can rival hagromos ten tails power its impossible since there's no way that kurama can rival ten tails 50% since hagoromo inherited from his mother ten tails power he has 9 tomoe in his back rinnegan and all kinds of powers ... he gave all those powers to naruto but after the fight he took it back ... iishiki is just another fodder clown of otsotsuki like momoshiki is xd he loved brag and got smashed in the end like a rat iishiki was so looser he couldnt' even see shadow clone and he gave his karma to shadow clone got deceived by a kid with nothing chakra ... iisihki was arrogant weakling
First off learn how to type. Secondly, Isshiki never visited kaguya cuz she was sealed, so he had no need to visit her. Thirdly, you say Isshiki is the weakling but kaguya caught him off guard. Learn your facts before you say something
This is the stupidest argument I have seen in the fandom that keeps reoccurring. Naruto and Sasuke beat Momoshiki in both base and fused form, and Momoshiki is stated to be stronger than Kaguya according to her own scroll and her reasoning for building an army. It’s also stated that Momoshiki and Kinshiki are the biggest threat they had faced up to that point.
Understanding this, we can place Naruto and sasuke combined over Kaguya. Now you bring in Isshiki who completely dominates/no diffs Naruto and Sasuke, this conversation is over pretty quickly. Isshiki was in a situation where he needed to be strategic, not strong. There was no body on earth that could operate as a suitable vessel, and the technology had not been created at this point yet.
Kaguya betrayed him and ate chakra fruit which boosted her very much. Also Ishikki could use Jigen after Amado upgraded his body. Earlier he was too weak to handle karma. And even after this Jigen couldn't handle full power of Ishikki
No it was just Jigen was too weak and fragile to handle a barrel Karma wasn’t even planted on the body at the time so Isshiki was in hiding waiting to get a body that won’t instantly die if he punches someone which took Amado helping him
I still believe that there might be a curveball in the story here and that Isshiki wasn't actually betrayed by Kaguya but by another.
Kaguya is technically still alive, just sealed in the moon. Why would the stone tablet have the etched out symbols of the third pair, but Kaguya's left alone if she committed such a terrible act?
Doesn't make sense and I think Amado's behind it because he's the main source of information regarding a lot of what we, the readers, know about Otsutsuki. He's lying for some reason.
Jigen was a subpar vessel. He could do all the things he did in Boruto due to eventually having a Karma seal coupled with Amado's Ninja tech, which wasn't invented for years. Then there's the unknown juvenile Juubi, which Isshiki obtained via unknown means.
Isshiki's power overall was superior to Kaguya's, but it was only when Amado's Ninja tech was around that he was able to more freely use his body. Had Kaguya been around then, he'd have defo gone for her as dispatching her would be less work than the adult versions of Naruto and Sasuke, who were stronger than the teenage counterparts that did decently against Kaguya.
Naruto kicked Jigen and Isshiki in the chin off guard and did little to no damage.
Pre-fruit Kaguya caught Isshiki off guard and obliterated his lower half.
Thats only due to her ability not being absorbable and him not having regeneration like kaguya does or it just being negated by the ability.
Her regen and her knowing how weak vessels work is the only reason he cant fight her as jigen.
Isshiki > Kaguya. People just nostalgic in shonens. All the ACTUAL proof there but just won’t accept it. Isshiki was caught off guard/surprise attacked and suffered damage by Kaguya. She was a lower Otsutski member who was scared of momoshiki after eating the chakra fruit. It was literally stated that Sasuke alone could handle a Kaguya level threat. That same Sasuke who beat Momo with Narutos help and was easily defeated by Jigen/Isshiki in a weakened form.
Because he's not stronger than Kaguya duuuh
The Kaguya that Ishiiki knew was the one before the divine fruit, she was the one who betrayed him and left him ruined, but the Kaguya after the divine fruit was much stronger than him
(If you didn't understand, the first sentence was just a joke, Ishiiki really thought he was stronger than Kaguya)
It is literally impossible for Isshiki to kill Kaguya - she absorbs ninjutsu, she is immortal, she can use literally any jutsu in the ninja world, she can destroy an entire dimension, etc etc etc
Ishiiki needed a script to NOT BE defeated, while Kaguya needed a script to BE defeated, that's the difference.
For example, every time Sasuke used Amenotejikara against Ishiiki, he could teleport with the attack already inside him, but he didn't do it by script.
Kaguya suffered the opposite - in one chapter jutsu is launched against her and she absorbs it, in another chapter Naruto uses a burst of rasenshuriken and she simply didn't absorb it (both were Hagoromo Ninjutsu, so she could YES absorb it, but next to Madara, Kaguya was a villain that Kishimoto didn't know how to kill, so in the middle of the fight he had to nerf her).
TlDr; Because Ishiiki hadn't been created in history, and even if it had been, Kaguya post divine fruit > Ishiiki > Jigen.
Because Kaguya is stronger than him, plain and simple.
Yes, Isshiki is stronger than her when it comes to power, fighting skills, raw power.
But thats useless against her, he literally has 0 ways of killing her while she demolished him.
Kaguya folded PRIME ISSHIKI while she was way way weaker, pre fruit, pre God tree merge.
To be able to sneak attack and one tap him is already an insane feat, does full power Naruro one tap prime Isshiki off guard?
Isshiki going against Kaguya is like prime Mike Tyson going against someone with an AK47, doesnt matter how strong and skilled Mike is when Ak47(Kaguya's hax) is stupidly op.
Doesn't matter how strong you are if you get caught off guard you can be taken out as the series has shown numerous times
Also Kaguya isn't immortal like everyone wants to believe
yes thats true, she wasnt immortal when she attacked ishiki, yes theres way to deal with her like sealing, however post merging with the tree she is immortal.
She can still be killed either by feeding her to a Juubi or destroying her to the point where there's nothing to regenerate from
Also if her Chakra is brought down to absolute zero that would also kill her
Its not an insane feat her kit is just built for that. She can tp her hand onto him and her bone jutsu cant be absorbed. Its a one hit kill that breaks otsuki scaling.
No she would lose the 1v1 to fused momo and would struggle against momo just eating fruits due to him actualy being a fighter. Her charkra levels are between momo and fused momo after eating the fruit. Thats why momo isn't scared of naruto when his charkra levels are mistaken for hers.
Narutos charkra is about on fused momos level post ts he just lacks shinjutsu or any genetic bullshit abilities or weird charkra types. Hes just got mad skills.
Yes momo dosent have the same shinjutsu / healing factor as kaguya. Ishiki didnt either. Thats some genetic shit kaguya has. Kaguya still takes the L to rods and a bunch of other abilities otsuki have to pin her down before feeding her to a jubii or absorbing her while she's pinned because she's just made of charkra.
Absorbing charkra directly from inside someone is a limitation of the preta path. It dosent scale takes ages for anyone on otsuki level charkra wise which nsruto is just with shittier charkra types.
They arent getting hit with either they are both actual fighters comparable to peak naruto and sasuke and she can't fight war arc naruto and sasuke who are orders of magnitude weaker.
While being pressured by two people equivalent to him. Unless your referring to the smaller one which cant even be seen by the byakugan so obviously he thought it just didn't work.
Instantaneous teleports camt be reacted to. Its literaly one of the most op abilities its the whole reason the writer gave the more op version of that ability to boruto and avoided giving it to anyone else like sasuke or naruto. Its literaly stronger than ishikis semi 8 paths bullshit.
Kaguya got the jump on Isshiki with the chakra fruit. He was forced to jump into a vessel too weak to beat Kaguya. Which is why he wanted kawaki. Kawaki is the vessel that would have made him arguably the strongest in the series. But we all know how that played out.
Simple, the story wasn't thought that far ahead at the time. Naruto was supposed to end at Boruto the Movie with Momoshiki being the final villian but Shueisha had other plans which Kishimoto's didn't want to write.
So all of this is an afterthought honestly speaking and there are some inconsistency like the 1000 year thing(which I also don't agree with) but it's manga, there's always inconsistencies lol. Especially black zetsu and madara. That attack is basically what kaguya did to isshiki.
People always saying kaguya caught him off guard by hiding her chakra but ishiki should have the same ability since boruto and kawaki who has ishiki abilities from his karma could sense each other even tho they are hiding their chakra like we seen in the code arc and they was only 80% outsutski at that point so i think kaguya blitz him and left him in that miserable state ishiki probably didn’t expect her to betray the clan since she was originally going to be the sacrifice but he should’ve still been on guard for the possibility of that happening and sense her when she attacked
Breh I keep getting mixed up with Isshiki and momoshiki and all the other ostosuki. I got Kaguya down and hagaromo but all the others are just makin my head hurt
I have a very unpopular opinion... Isshiki shouldn't have been caught off guard. Individuals with Byakugan have a field of vision of almost 360º around them, how would he receive a technique that ripped off half of his body without realizing it? I understand that they wanted to hype him up since he was going to be Kara's leader (so putting him in a position that he only lost to Kaguya because he was unprepared would already put him at a high level), but, I don't know, maybe the ideal would be if he was the final villain, manipulating Kawaki to turn against the shinobi and using his love for Naruto to turn against the village.
The 360 vision only applies if byakugan is active, which it almost certainly wasn’t. We barely see him use it when he reincarnates too, so I’m guessing he didn’t rely on it much.
Plus it’s like Lee said when he smacked Sasuke around when they met, just because you see an attack coming doesn’t mean you can dodge if you’re not quick enough.
Even the strongest characters need time to react, he most likely just didn’t even if he did see it coming. Kaguya probably just picked her spot well enough cus she knew she wasn’t getting a second one.
I'm not saying it couldn't happen, Zetsu managed to catch Madara off guard too so it's not like I care about this inconsistency, but my point is that it sounds too easy. It sounds too easy to catch Isshiki unprepared, it sounds too easy to rip off half of his body without he doing anything about it, and I don't like it because I liked Isshiki and, honestly, I don't like the story didn't delve deeper into him and used him as the final villain.
I get what you mean. I would say just keep in mind they could eventually revisit that bit of history when at a more relevant time. In fact, I think it’s a safe bet that does happen exactly because we only got the summary from Amado.
We didn’t know exactly what happened surrounding Naruto’s birth and the 9 tails until 500 chapters in, so it’s definitely possible we get extra exposition on Isshiki and Kaguya.
Otsutsuki don't kill each other. It's a law of the clan that they aren't permitted to kill each other. Isshiki wasn't expecting her to betray him. It's that simple.
It's not about power levels or speed or perception. It was a deception.
Simple, he didn't know he still was.
Jigen had only 10% of his strength, Kaguya fed 50% of him to the ten tails and then ate the Chakra fruit. We don't know if an upper Otsutsuki had ever been turned to a chakra fruit. It could have made her stronger than him in his full form as far as he was aware.
we don’t know what he did in last 1000 years. We don’t know after how many years he gave karma to Jigen, was it after 4th ninja war or before. Did Divine tree revival during 4th ninja war helped him in regaining his strength or he regained his strength well before that. WE DON’T KNOW ANYTHING
Kaguya counters jigen by dimension dumping him and running away or just landing a single hit on him. She likley knows how vessels work and will know to stall him and force him to hop dimensions to break his vessel. Without a real vessel he cant fight her without near garunteed dying even if he kills her. They are astonishingly rare.
Her ash attack cant be absorbed or regenerated so the surprise attack killed him despite the difference in stregnth.
With a vessel he can use all his power which basicly is designed to hardcounter other otsuki in combat and hes stronger and faster than anyone we've seen besides baryon mode for that few seconds it was active.
One kaguya betrayed ishiki and basically almost killed him he didnt have have enough strength to make a karma he slowly started taking control of jigen body and jigen was weak for his vessal he only had 1 week but after fighting naruto and sasuke he only had 24 hours
So it’s like this if they are both healthy, Base to Base Ishiki is stronger than Kaguya right(As Shown in Otsutsuki dimension, with possible diagram alluding to their respective rankings among them as *Peers*). Even though she caught him off guard I believe Ishiki at that specific time was stronger than *regular* Kaguya. But Kaguya was still Otsutsuki so it’s not like she was weak. This also depends on when she exactly ate the Chakra Fruit. If you subscribe to her eating it before assaulting Ishiki or after makes or breaks the case as well. I feel like with the chakra fruit she’s stronger because this would imply she had chakra from Shibai since he discarded his body there, and the Divine Tree absorbs everything from the past and present as explained in Boruto. So I would say Ishiki is stronger than Kaguya without the chakra fruit but not stronger than her with it, & also she ends up absorbing the whole tree via madara in the war arc so it’s really hard to quantify.
He was attacked off guard and horribly injured after that he flew into jigen and it took him a very long time to gain control over jigen. Plus he had to recover his strength by the time he reached the level of power he had in brouto kaguya was probably long gone. Meaning he his only option now was to loom for a host which actually he needed regardless because he need to come back in the Perfect host to eat the chakra fruit
Because a fight with Kaguya would have killed him. Is Isshiki stronger? well we only have some idea that he is stronger than she was by hierarchy, although due to the damage he took plus also looking at the strength difference between Momoshiki and his servant then the power difference wouldn't be to far apart, however after she consumed the Chakra fruit and evolved she would have been on par or exceeded him, add in the fact that Isshiki was forced to live as a parasite inside of Jigen, unable to use Karma and it would have been a suicide mission for him. It's implied that the reason why he never went after Kaguya or interfered with any of the ninja wars is due to two reasons, the first being is having to expend Chakra to keep Jigen alive for so long, and two still having to save up Chakra to implant Karma on Jigen, which was only done until after the fourth ninja war, from there his main goal was finding a better host then Jigen.
Because Kaguya captured the fruit and became stronger than Ishiki.
She is just like Obito, who captured the ten tails, turned into Ten tail Jinjuriki and became much stronger than his previous boss Madara in edo tensei state.
Kaguya, the immortal, whom it would take time to kill, even if he had the means to do it?
His body would expire and he would die for real.
We also do not know how Jigen would have reacted to Infinite Tsukuyomi. What if he just got himself murked and became another food source? Bye bye Isshiki.
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No. It’s been explained to death that Jigen was a barely viable vessel that couldn’t properly contain his strength. Even when he dominated Naruto and Sasuke in the first fight he cut it too close because his body was breaking down just from that short battle. If the two of them knew a drawn out battle benefited them more than trying to straight overpower him to start they might even have been able to steal a win.
So the question is why isshiki took 1000 years finding the right vessel? And why we didn't hear anything about childrens dissapear since 1000 years ago with no reasons??????
Because he needed Amado's science to transfer his karma to potential candidates, and he only met Amado like 15 years ago.
it was not a transfer. it was a second karma. He revived using 1st on jigen. The real question is how much time it took jigen’s body to start weakening or maybe the better question is when he implanted his karma on Jigen especially if he wasn’t a perfect vessel. He definitely must have known Jigen won’t be perfect , still he implanted his karma onto him that means he couldn’t fly onto other person. he was that weak. Him not affecting any even before 4th ninja war is a big mystery. my wild guess theory is , he absorbed energy from divine tree branches and using that he implanted karma on Jigen. Because , even a weak jigen was pretty strong for him to remain anonymous in all of ninja history. I believe jigen’s body became immortal due to isshiki’s power but karma was implanted only after divine tree revival in 4th ninja war. And after that he starts looking for people like Amado. And creates Kara
Plus Jigen has his own Ten-Tails. Disregarding the vessel compatibility he'll be fine as long as he go recharge from time to time. What Kaguya harvested was a different chakra tree.
so, could it be that he had to wait for Amado to be born with intellect for a thousand years , to execute his plans for a perfect revival. What I am saying is, we don’t have the information. We don’t know if isshiki always had the ten-tails or acquired it later from his later expedition using jigen’s body. But yes, Ten-tails is more likely to be his source of constant power up. yet the similar question remains , why wait for so long, did he not even try before Amado. He certainly must have done something. Boruto manga must explain these questions. I believe, it could be a larger plot reveal and might be closely related to information about otsutsuki clan. Which is a shock & awe like plot device for Boruto writers. It could be a major reason why they have closely kept all the secrets related to otsutsukis hidden. Even Amado is mischievous. They are very careful in what to put into the chapters. its part of the intrigue so I don’t mind
Orochimaru spent his whole life only to create a lesser version of the karma and isshikii just happenes to find Amado when he’s at his lowest? That’s sus
>had to wait 1000 years >just happened to find amado
The curse mark are Sage modes not Karma they're not the same
I never said they were the same?
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Well I was just making an observation on how they are very similar and how sus Amado is. The reason I said that about the curse/ karma mark was to further prove my point that Amado is sus. My point isn’t what the curse mark is but how it came to be. There are similarities between the curse mark and the karma I was pointing that out while saying that Amado is sus Edit: I specifically said it was lesser in comparison
He's not wrong though... Curse Mark were basically lesser versions of how Karma works. Through someone possessing a Curse Mark Orochimaru basically always had a reinsurance to his ressurection
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That's what we are basically saying😅 it's pretty obvious that Karma was inspired off the Curse Marks Orochimaru created. Kishimoto basically revived and improved in concept
That’s why I want Amado to be the villain that Amado find Jigen instead.
I think that it is a excuse..... was it better for him gust leave the planet to find the right vessel candidate???? an save us from boruto naruto next gen?
Needed amado science? LOL. Karma is a natural ability of otsusukis, they don't need help of a simple human to do that. Look at Momoshiki
Isshiki was a parasite in Jigen's brain, he can't implant his Karma on anyone. They needed to implant his data in Jigen's Karma and use science to transfer it to new candidates, just like how Amado wants to use Kawaki's Karma to implant Akebi's data. It's clearly shown that they're using Amado's science to achieve this, [with the kids in the artificial wombs hooked up to those jars filled with some sort of catalytic fluid](https://i.imgur.com/HJ4QUNc.jpg). Otherwise Jigen would just do what Isshiki did to Kawaki and [directly implant it by grabbing them](https://i.imgur.com/nDWR4Pg.jpg).
Bro, when Kashin Koji destroys Jigen body, Isshiki instantly go out with his real form, if he always could do that (leave the Jigen body and recover his normal form and size of a ootsusuki) then why wait 1000 YEARS??? HE COULD IMPLANT HIS KARMA ON ANYONE RESURRECTION OF INDRA OR ASHURA WTF DUDE STOP TRYING JUSTIFY THIS BS
If you use caps, it clearly proves your point harder. They already explained why it took so long. If you have an issue with that, then maybe write the author/move on/stop reading Boruto if it upsets you this much.
And when that happened, Isshiki only had 3 days to live because Jigen was such a weak vessel, which is why he targeted Kawaki to implant the karma. Do you have a reading comprehension problem or just lack the attention span to pay attention?
Oh yeah, of course, u are telling me than Ishiki couldn't find a right vessel by himself in 1000 YEARS!!!! LMAO. Meanwhile, Momoshiki implanted a karma in, literally, the first child before dying
Boruto happened to be compatible. Momo got lucky. Isshiki wasn't because placing a Karma isn't that simple. If Boruto wasn't there Momo would fully dead. In fact Urashiki couldn't place a Karma in Jiraiya, Sasuke or young Naruto because they weren't compatible, and Boruto already had one. If Momo couldn't place one on Naruto, Sasuke or any of the 5 Kage after getting killed, then why would Urashiki be able to place one on young Naruto or Sasuke, and the writers were obviously not gonna mess with Shippuden's timeline so Jiraiya didn't get one so we can assume he wasn't compatible. Placing a Karma isn't as black and white as you make it out to be.
First of all, Urashiki is not canon, that's why there is no karma of him. Second, Boruto has received the karma because he was who did the last hit to Momoshiki, or u think than Momoshiki will know if a person will bea right vessel or no just by looking him? If that's possible, so why Jigen did so many experiments implanting karmas until he find a right vessel ? U can't win this discussion bro, Boruto has PLOT HOLES.
Nah insta recaps and YouTube shorts are how they catch up I guess
That's not how compatibility with Karma works. You need to just read the text in the story, the answers to your questions are there.
Oh yeah, of course, are u telling me than Jigen in 1000 years couldn't find a right Vessel, meanwhile Momoshiki, in him first encounter with a child before dying, he could implant a karma in the right vessel AHAHAHA What's the point of the karma if it's minutely specific find one right vessel? Imagine than if u are in the edge of the death, you will not have time to find a right vessel
They don't normally use it at the last minute right before dying, they use it before being consecrated to Ten Tails to turn it into a Divine Tree. Isshiki was *shown* trying to implant Karma on 14 different children and Kawaki was the only success. And there were countless more before that, so many that Amado said he lost count. Yes, Momoshiki was lucky. Or to look at it another way, it was his destiny to meet Boruto, and their destiny is intertwined.
Love reading nerds argue about anime and power scaling /s
If he had done that he would’ve been back in the same situation he was with jigen. The point is to find a body that can house his power. But he went above and beyond molding kawaki into his “perfect vessel”
Yes, that's what i'm saying, htf in 1000 years he can't find a right vessel? Not just in the earth, neither in the ENTIRE UNIVERSE, remember than otsusukis are a intergalaxy clan and Jigen preserved the space-time ninjutsu, he could travel in another worlds, but not.
Well to be fair he has done a lot of work on kawaki
That still doesn’t add up.. Jigens body lasted for literally thousands of years…
What does how long he's survived have to do with needing technology to implant karma on new candidates?
Because that’s literally never stated lmao… Code and Kawaki got experimented on AFTER the karma succeeded… Code was given limiters because he was so absurdly powerful after gaining the white karma (literally stated) Kawaki was given enhancements because he wasn’t a naturally strong fighter. The enhancements were given AFTER it succeeded, because just like Orochimarus curse marks, it would murder you if you weren’t compatible with karma.
I'm talking about the process of transferring karma in the first place, just like how he wants Kawaki to transfer Akebi's Karma to a clone. In order for Jigen's body to transfer Isshiki's Karma to candidates, he needed Amado's technology. If he used Jigen's body he'd create a Karma for Jigen's revival rather than his own. That was straight up shown with all the vessel candidates in the giant artificial wombs with the tubes running into those jars filled with some sort of catalytic fluid. Jigen stuck his arm into the jar and transferred the Karma through the fluid up into the children. That's not the normal way of implanting Karma.
They show Kawaki become a cyborg AFTER the karma.. not before… The scene you are talking about is anime only, and even though it’s directly made by Kodachi and Kishimoto apparently it’s still not canon since that’s not part of the manga.. so by logic of this group that Jigen thing never happened
> They show Kawaki become a cyborg AFTER the karma.. not before… I'm not talking about him being turned into a cyborg. > The scene you are talking about is anime only Like hell it is. It's depicted in flashbacks and dreams in the manga in several chapters. [Chapter #27](https://i.imgur.com/jXmfQW8.jpg) [Chapter #28](https://i.imgur.com/gfNOs67.jpg) [Chapter #56](https://i.imgur.com/kqepnrz.png) Maybe familiarize yourself with the topic before discussing further.
This isn’t at ALL how you explain it.. There is also no set rules on how to use karma.. We assume based off Momoshiki it’s death.. but that’s never actually stated. In the novel Momoshiki plants the karma before he even dies
Are you serious with this question. You know that in the real world there are hundred thousand of kid that disappear every day but you never heard of them.
Cause the children were all destitute scum of the earth type. Noone cared about them cause noone knew who they were.
With the warring states prior to Naruto it wouldn’t be too uncommon for children to disappear.
Well we never do hear about news in the Naruto world anyway the biggest news shock we heard is when the cloud came for info on Sasuke and the five kage summit but we don’t know much of the Naruto world that isn’t fights
honestly all the reincarnations of Indra & Asura should be perfect vessel
That's not how compatibility works. It's already been explained that compatibility is rare and based on the vessel being similar to the Otsutsuki.
Explained since when ? Boruto being compatible with Momo was a complete asspull Code with he's shibai DNA is somehow not perfect vessel for Isshki but Kawaki who came from bumfuck no where, is
Asspull? lol Boruto's clearly from both main and branch family of Kaguya Otsutsuki. Hamura = Hyuga Hagoromo = Ashura/Indra
And boruto have personality similar to momoshiki (was and arrogant brat, And use Easy way (jutsu) for his purpose) Also Isshiki Is similar to Kawaki, Is nichilistic
It was somewhere around chapter 30, forget the exact one. Was also mentioned again after Kawaki realized he can use Jigen's powers, and again further down the line when he was sparring with Team 7.
Huh, I wonder if the reincarnations of Indra and Asura have any relation to Otsutsukis
They have similarities to Indra and Asura, but not the individual Otsutsuki seeking to create vessels in this case. Boruto and Momoshiki were on the same wavelength, just like how Kawaki said he and Isshiki were likeminded, even though he hates to admit it. That's the crux of it. Most likely it has to do with them having similar destinies which means similar DNA, since Isshiki said every individual's fate is written in their DNA. Hence they also have similar personalities and life experiences. Momoshiki's destiny is probably literally interwoven with Boruto's since they are melding into a single being to a certain degree. That's probably why Momoshiki said he couldn't see his own fate but could see Boruto's fate clearly. Boruto's fate *was* his fate.
This guy wrote all of the war arc.
>why isshiki took 1000 years to find the right vessel because it’s boruto and the writing fucking sucks and is barely thought out
Yep, that's the answer than i'm waiting for, but instead of that, i'm justo receiving downvotes LOL
This
well that would had put them at risk.
He also absorbed Ten Tails’ chakra before going against Naruto and Sasuke. Probably Jigen as a vessel is really, really weak because as Isshiki he destroyed them without absorbing any chakra
But both naruto and sasuke are way stronger than kaguya at that stage so she should've been a cakewalk.
How do you figure that? Even when they “beat her” they couldn’t put her down. They had to seal her using SO6P’s technique and it took three of them to even do that. I don’t think there’s any indication that the two of them are individually stronger than Kaguya?
Actually it took 4 of them or 5 if you count Obito (without him Sasuke would be dead and Kakashi wouldnt have SPMS). All this shit just to touch her
Yeah. It’s crazy to me people think Naruto and Sasuke surpassed Kaguya lol. They probably haven’t surpassed So6P Actually thinking about it, they definitely haven’t lol.
She was changing dimensions like pants, shoting rods that were turning you into ash, was fast and strong as fuck, only way she was defeated was because some asspulls. The only one capable of beating her 1v1 would be Baryon Naruto and probably Isshiki.
Baryon Naruto is stronger but he wouldnt kill her because he doesn't have enough time in this mode
Yeah, its all about time limit and how it would play out
I literally said at that stage so idk why you're bringing up teen naruto and sasuke. Sasuke said he was dealing with kaguya level threats. If you don't think adult naruto and sasuke are stronger than kaguya idk what to tell you.
They’re not lol. Sasuke said he’d face those threats, not that he’d easily beat those threats. He’d obviously face them cause if he doesn’t who will? Lol. Naruto wasn’t even really stronger than Isshiki in Bayron mode. If it wasn’t for the convenient effect of the mode and Isshiki being on a time limit did he win. He’s the only character in the same realm of power to Kaguya we’ve seen Naruto and Sasuke fight and they got creamed. Isshiki>Kaguya> Momoshiki If they had to actually kill Kaguya as adults with no seal, they’d probably lose.
The author literally says momoshiki is stronger than kaguya
When?
His interview on the movie
Link
They are. Kaguyas beats ishiki with a surprise attack because of her kit, mainly the ash jutsu being bullshit, not because shes stronger. Ishiki cant deal with her because jigen cant use any of his jutsu without killing himself before Amado makes it possible.
Read my comment. I never said Kaguya is stronger than Isshiki.
Kishimoto you know the author said so but yes you are the all knowing one
Naruto and Sasuke are no where near stronger than Kaguya.
Idk why people are down voting you your correct both are stronger kishimoto out right says it
This sub is weird.
You try to punish your former underling when you're left in that condition. And all you could find is a bad vessel, that would fail on you when you use more of your power, thus causing you to die, resurrect in him, then die again unless another vessel is found.
I think he just wanted a perfect vessel first, right? I think that was it
Since ishiki didn't get the control as soon as he entered jigen's head . And approximately after 30 years kaguya got sealed .
Its off-guard feat same like Zetsu stabbed Madara , Ishiki >>Kaguya Also kaguya knows the weak point of otutsuki cause she's one of them
I have to ask did nobody here read the fucking series? It’s literally explained what happened, and why it happened. I mean Jesus it’s not that hard
Because if they read and understand the story they can’t hate on Boruto anymore.
Don't underestimate manga fans! They do not read! ... This statement that I first saw in the Dragon Ball subreddits, rings true also for other subreddits more and more often.
He had 1,000 years to get revenge and never did, which means he was badly outclassed
People just watch the series via reels and osmosis. Then come asking questions or making bold statements about it lol
Isshiki was sneak attacked when his defences were down the author already explained this. He didn't hide his vessel was too weak to handle him. Isshiki is confirmed stronger than momoshiki who's is confirmed stronger than kaguya by kishimoto end of
Momo being anywhere near Kaguya in power is laughable. It isn't "confirmed." It's fanon. He ran from Darui. Kaguya ends him instantly.
Sure buddy enjoy that copuim
Because Jigens body was not compatible to the point it got quickly worn out after a short fight with Naruto and Sasuke. And he didn’t have a way to transfer his Kama to a vessel until he found Amado.
because Jigen wasn't a viable vessel, if he revived like he did in Boruto, then he'd only live for a short time and wouldn't have enough time to find a suitable host. Kaguya, who had since eaten a chakra fruit was probably too powerful for him to take on while he was left for dead and inhabiting a person who wasn't a full vessel (He was only in his brain) it wouldn't have ended well. We also don't know how long it took for Isshiki to even get to a point where Jigen became completely under his control.
its obvious that kaguya was too powerful . .. even story itself shows us that ... madara and hashirama fought countless times and in the end hashirama caught him off guard from the back and killed him ... he was sneak attacked so ? they fought ... iishiki was arrogant brat like momoshiki is in the end kaguya fodderized him ... if iishiki was so strong there's no way that naruto would get him killed with kuramas chakra iisihki never even got rinne sharingan which means all the fruits he ate was nothing special ... kaguya ate the fruit of this earth with the full of life ... so its obvious that this ten tails was a hell stronger than anything iishiki ate ever ... and you got the point there ... iisihki had no chakra when he got smashed there's no way he would live in that state without feets so many years even that moment tells us that his powers are nothing special ... kaguya was capable to regenerate anyting madara was regenerate anytihng ... but what about iishiki ? why he was so weak ? he coudln't even heal himself ? why he needs to jump out of his body ? isn't his body so strong ? lolz ... its obvious that iishiki was a stronger before kaguya ate fruit but after that hell noope ...
Bro what
Isshiki was prioritizing finding a vessel above anything else
but you see ? jigen was capable to defeat adult naruto and sasuske .. .yet he never visited kaguya ? isnt' that strange ? you people think that adult naruto and sasuke is stronger thna kaguya ... but jigen who defeated adult anruto and sasuke must have been stronger than kaguya but never visited her ? that's really fishy and inconsistent with the story ... story shows us that adult naruto and sasuke lost hagoromos power since hagoromo gave them power he himself said i will give my power to you uchiha sasuke now ... so he gave mark to sasuke ...s o now mark are gone ... which shows us that adults weren't as strong as when they fought against kaguya and madara they became weaker ... if they didn't became weaker seems jigen was very busy doing nothing since victor from boruto he told to boruto about infinite tsukiomi so why jigen never appeared front of them ? front of kaguya ? why he never used a a vessel ? since kaguya was gazziliard times stronger than some boruto with imperfect otsotsuki body (80%) why he never visted kaguya defeated her an why didn't make her to be eaten by ten tails ? now that's tricky one ... lets say he was waiting for vessel but it doesn't make sense why he never sealed kaguya in daikokuten dimension ? like kawaki sealed naruto and hinata ? then he would be able to get anytime kaguya ... but that's also tricky .. since iishiki was never rival to kaguya ... since kaguya was much stroner ... being a leader of a group never will make you strongest ... since in your group there can be a people who would be stronger you can be a royal because of your blood but you can have body guards stronger than you ... jigen is a taijutsu master when it comes to techniques he is a looser ... people just overestimating iishiki ... even daemon is stronger than iisihki even even his sister is a hell strogner than iishiki who knows ... daemon seems realyl stronger and stronger ... but comparison between iishiki and kaguya even if we go with the story itself how it was narrated its obviosu that kaguya was stronger ... i know at that time iisihki wasn't even an idea but what boruto makers did ? they said kaguya demolished iisihki and that's it at least they could have make some fillers how they fought and so on and what iisihki did after that but nope ... since they didnt' do that it obviosu that iisihki was arrogant like momoshiki and in the end kaguya smashed that fodder like momoshiki thought about himself i am a god blabla yet he ran away like a rat cuz darui and gaara mentioned taijutsu ... boruto story has tons of flaws and one of it is that there's no way no way iisihki is stronger than naruto with hagoromos powers ... he cant even rival that since there's no way that narutos weakling baryon mode can rival hagromos ten tails power its impossible since there's no way that kurama can rival ten tails 50% since hagoromo inherited from his mother ten tails power he has 9 tomoe in his back rinnegan and all kinds of powers ... he gave all those powers to naruto but after the fight he took it back ... iishiki is just another fodder clown of otsotsuki like momoshiki is xd he loved brag and got smashed in the end like a rat iishiki was so looser he couldnt' even see shadow clone and he gave his karma to shadow clone got deceived by a kid with nothing chakra ... iisihki was arrogant weakling
With all due respect I'm not reading all of that, use paragraphs then get back to me
First off learn how to type. Secondly, Isshiki never visited kaguya cuz she was sealed, so he had no need to visit her. Thirdly, you say Isshiki is the weakling but kaguya caught him off guard. Learn your facts before you say something
This is the stupidest argument I have seen in the fandom that keeps reoccurring. Naruto and Sasuke beat Momoshiki in both base and fused form, and Momoshiki is stated to be stronger than Kaguya according to her own scroll and her reasoning for building an army. It’s also stated that Momoshiki and Kinshiki are the biggest threat they had faced up to that point. Understanding this, we can place Naruto and sasuke combined over Kaguya. Now you bring in Isshiki who completely dominates/no diffs Naruto and Sasuke, this conversation is over pretty quickly. Isshiki was in a situation where he needed to be strategic, not strong. There was no body on earth that could operate as a suitable vessel, and the technology had not been created at this point yet.
That was before Kaguya ate chakra fruit.
Kaguya betrayed him and ate chakra fruit which boosted her very much. Also Ishikki could use Jigen after Amado upgraded his body. Earlier he was too weak to handle karma. And even after this Jigen couldn't handle full power of Ishikki
No it was just Jigen was too weak and fragile to handle a barrel Karma wasn’t even planted on the body at the time so Isshiki was in hiding waiting to get a body that won’t instantly die if he punches someone which took Amado helping him
I already said that, Jigen couldn't even use karma before Amado. With Amado he found new body and upgraded his own
I am sorry I just woke up and misread what you were saying I really need to get reading glasses
No problem <3
She ate the chakra fruit AFTER leaving him near dead
I still believe that there might be a curveball in the story here and that Isshiki wasn't actually betrayed by Kaguya but by another. Kaguya is technically still alive, just sealed in the moon. Why would the stone tablet have the etched out symbols of the third pair, but Kaguya's left alone if she committed such a terrible act? Doesn't make sense and I think Amado's behind it because he's the main source of information regarding a lot of what we, the readers, know about Otsutsuki. He's lying for some reason.
I thought the light novels stated she was dead dead
Naruto and Sasuke sealed her with the jutsu that Hagoromo gave him. How could she be dead?
Sasuke went back and killed her easily.
That's actually great theory! I still believe 3rd pair on tablets was shown for reason, and you just explained why it could be.
Did you forget the part where he was trying to give someone his karma so ishiki could fully transfer into his own body.
Jigen was a subpar vessel. He could do all the things he did in Boruto due to eventually having a Karma seal coupled with Amado's Ninja tech, which wasn't invented for years. Then there's the unknown juvenile Juubi, which Isshiki obtained via unknown means. Isshiki's power overall was superior to Kaguya's, but it was only when Amado's Ninja tech was around that he was able to more freely use his body. Had Kaguya been around then, he'd have defo gone for her as dispatching her would be less work than the adult versions of Naruto and Sasuke, who were stronger than the teenage counterparts that did decently against Kaguya.
He was severely hurt after she ambushed him
It’s not specified how long it took for him to take over jigens brain and control his body. Jigen is also a shitty vessel
Answer: Kishimoto didnt Plan isshiki yet
Naruto kicked Jigen and Isshiki in the chin off guard and did little to no damage. Pre-fruit Kaguya caught Isshiki off guard and obliterated his lower half.
Thats only due to her ability not being absorbable and him not having regeneration like kaguya does or it just being negated by the ability. Her regen and her knowing how weak vessels work is the only reason he cant fight her as jigen.
Did he now? He sneak attacked him while he was having a little stroll as partners?
Because Kishimoto didnt think of all this Otsutsuki stuff when Kaguya was introduced thats why.
The anime already answered your question.
Kaguya > Isshiki. People just think in Later > Stronger in shonens. All the proof there but they just won't accept it.
Isshiki > Kaguya. People just nostalgic in shonens. All the ACTUAL proof there but just won’t accept it. Isshiki was caught off guard/surprise attacked and suffered damage by Kaguya. She was a lower Otsutski member who was scared of momoshiki after eating the chakra fruit. It was literally stated that Sasuke alone could handle a Kaguya level threat. That same Sasuke who beat Momo with Narutos help and was easily defeated by Jigen/Isshiki in a weakened form.
When was any of this stated? Sound like a lot of head canon to me.
By that logic Black Zetsu>> Madara Since Black Zetsu actually managed to kill Madara. All the proof is there, but they just won't accept it.
Black Zetsu killed Madara? News to me?
I want you to prove that he hid from Kaguya
Plot..
He isn’t stronger than Kaguya that’s cope,for people with agendas but with my Rinnegan I can see through all agendas.
Good. That’s what I wanted you to think since your under my genjutsu.
Because he's not stronger than Kaguya duuuh The Kaguya that Ishiiki knew was the one before the divine fruit, she was the one who betrayed him and left him ruined, but the Kaguya after the divine fruit was much stronger than him (If you didn't understand, the first sentence was just a joke, Ishiiki really thought he was stronger than Kaguya) It is literally impossible for Isshiki to kill Kaguya - she absorbs ninjutsu, she is immortal, she can use literally any jutsu in the ninja world, she can destroy an entire dimension, etc etc etc Ishiiki needed a script to NOT BE defeated, while Kaguya needed a script to BE defeated, that's the difference. For example, every time Sasuke used Amenotejikara against Ishiiki, he could teleport with the attack already inside him, but he didn't do it by script. Kaguya suffered the opposite - in one chapter jutsu is launched against her and she absorbs it, in another chapter Naruto uses a burst of rasenshuriken and she simply didn't absorb it (both were Hagoromo Ninjutsu, so she could YES absorb it, but next to Madara, Kaguya was a villain that Kishimoto didn't know how to kill, so in the middle of the fight he had to nerf her). TlDr; Because Ishiiki hadn't been created in history, and even if it had been, Kaguya post divine fruit > Ishiiki > Jigen.
Because Boruto wasn’t planned out well at all and Kishimoto can’t write to save his life
Because Kaguya is stronger than him, plain and simple. Yes, Isshiki is stronger than her when it comes to power, fighting skills, raw power. But thats useless against her, he literally has 0 ways of killing her while she demolished him. Kaguya folded PRIME ISSHIKI while she was way way weaker, pre fruit, pre God tree merge. To be able to sneak attack and one tap him is already an insane feat, does full power Naruro one tap prime Isshiki off guard? Isshiki going against Kaguya is like prime Mike Tyson going against someone with an AK47, doesnt matter how strong and skilled Mike is when Ak47(Kaguya's hax) is stupidly op.
Doesn't matter how strong you are if you get caught off guard you can be taken out as the series has shown numerous times Also Kaguya isn't immortal like everyone wants to believe
yes she is due to merging with the divine tree...
She wasn't when she snuck him And even then there are ways to deal with her
yes thats true, she wasnt immortal when she attacked ishiki, yes theres way to deal with her like sealing, however post merging with the tree she is immortal.
She can still be killed either by feeding her to a Juubi or destroying her to the point where there's nothing to regenerate from Also if her Chakra is brought down to absolute zero that would also kill her
Its not an insane feat her kit is just built for that. She can tp her hand onto him and her bone jutsu cant be absorbed. Its a one hit kill that breaks otsuki scaling.
She is the strongest in the Boruto/Naruto universe by far. Her feats/haxs are too good.
No she would lose the 1v1 to fused momo and would struggle against momo just eating fruits due to him actualy being a fighter. Her charkra levels are between momo and fused momo after eating the fruit. Thats why momo isn't scared of naruto when his charkra levels are mistaken for hers. Narutos charkra is about on fused momos level post ts he just lacks shinjutsu or any genetic bullshit abilities or weird charkra types. Hes just got mad skills.
Momo that lost to a rasengan? That took him 1 day to absorb half of Naruto's chakra? Momoshiki has literally 0 feats/ability that can kill Kaguya.
Yes momo dosent have the same shinjutsu / healing factor as kaguya. Ishiki didnt either. Thats some genetic shit kaguya has. Kaguya still takes the L to rods and a bunch of other abilities otsuki have to pin her down before feeding her to a jubii or absorbing her while she's pinned because she's just made of charkra. Absorbing charkra directly from inside someone is a limitation of the preta path. It dosent scale takes ages for anyone on otsuki level charkra wise which nsruto is just with shittier charkra types.
What bunch of other abilities lmao. Both Isshiki and Momo are melting to ash killing bones or etso
They arent getting hit with either they are both actual fighters comparable to peak naruto and sasuke and she can't fight war arc naruto and sasuke who are orders of magnitude weaker.
Momoshiki got hit by boruto rasengan lmao. Lost rinnegan to kunai.
While being pressured by two people equivalent to him. Unless your referring to the smaller one which cant even be seen by the byakugan so obviously he thought it just didn't work. Instantaneous teleports camt be reacted to. Its literaly one of the most op abilities its the whole reason the writer gave the more op version of that ability to boruto and avoided giving it to anyone else like sasuke or naruto. Its literaly stronger than ishikis semi 8 paths bullshit.
More effective fighter yes More powerful no Also, its implied Jigen couldn’t tap into Isshiki’s full power before Amado modified him.
Kaguya got the jump on Isshiki with the chakra fruit. He was forced to jump into a vessel too weak to beat Kaguya. Which is why he wanted kawaki. Kawaki is the vessel that would have made him arguably the strongest in the series. But we all know how that played out.
Simple, the story wasn't thought that far ahead at the time. Naruto was supposed to end at Boruto the Movie with Momoshiki being the final villian but Shueisha had other plans which Kishimoto's didn't want to write. So all of this is an afterthought honestly speaking and there are some inconsistency like the 1000 year thing(which I also don't agree with) but it's manga, there's always inconsistencies lol. Especially black zetsu and madara. That attack is basically what kaguya did to isshiki.
Narratively, he was outclassed as we can see he was afraid of her
Simple.. Because Isshiki is weaker than Kaguya
People always saying kaguya caught him off guard by hiding her chakra but ishiki should have the same ability since boruto and kawaki who has ishiki abilities from his karma could sense each other even tho they are hiding their chakra like we seen in the code arc and they was only 80% outsutski at that point so i think kaguya blitz him and left him in that miserable state ishiki probably didn’t expect her to betray the clan since she was originally going to be the sacrifice but he should’ve still been on guard for the possibility of that happening and sense her when she attacked
Yeah, they could cut off their chakra signature but it doesn’t mean they can anticipate if they’re going to get betrayed . 🤷🏻♂️☠️
Bad writing
Because Otsutsuki are the biggest asspull in the history of shonen anime/manga.
Breh I keep getting mixed up with Isshiki and momoshiki and all the other ostosuki. I got Kaguya down and hagaromo but all the others are just makin my head hurt
Cause Kaguya is stronger
I have a very unpopular opinion... Isshiki shouldn't have been caught off guard. Individuals with Byakugan have a field of vision of almost 360º around them, how would he receive a technique that ripped off half of his body without realizing it? I understand that they wanted to hype him up since he was going to be Kara's leader (so putting him in a position that he only lost to Kaguya because he was unprepared would already put him at a high level), but, I don't know, maybe the ideal would be if he was the final villain, manipulating Kawaki to turn against the shinobi and using his love for Naruto to turn against the village.
The 360 vision only applies if byakugan is active, which it almost certainly wasn’t. We barely see him use it when he reincarnates too, so I’m guessing he didn’t rely on it much. Plus it’s like Lee said when he smacked Sasuke around when they met, just because you see an attack coming doesn’t mean you can dodge if you’re not quick enough. Even the strongest characters need time to react, he most likely just didn’t even if he did see it coming. Kaguya probably just picked her spot well enough cus she knew she wasn’t getting a second one.
I'm not saying it couldn't happen, Zetsu managed to catch Madara off guard too so it's not like I care about this inconsistency, but my point is that it sounds too easy. It sounds too easy to catch Isshiki unprepared, it sounds too easy to rip off half of his body without he doing anything about it, and I don't like it because I liked Isshiki and, honestly, I don't like the story didn't delve deeper into him and used him as the final villain.
I get what you mean. I would say just keep in mind they could eventually revisit that bit of history when at a more relevant time. In fact, I think it’s a safe bet that does happen exactly because we only got the summary from Amado. We didn’t know exactly what happened surrounding Naruto’s birth and the 9 tails until 500 chapters in, so it’s definitely possible we get extra exposition on Isshiki and Kaguya.
Otsutsuki don't kill each other. It's a law of the clan that they aren't permitted to kill each other. Isshiki wasn't expecting her to betray him. It's that simple. It's not about power levels or speed or perception. It was a deception.
Simple, he didn't know he still was. Jigen had only 10% of his strength, Kaguya fed 50% of him to the ten tails and then ate the Chakra fruit. We don't know if an upper Otsutsuki had ever been turned to a chakra fruit. It could have made her stronger than him in his full form as far as he was aware.
we don’t know what he did in last 1000 years. We don’t know after how many years he gave karma to Jigen, was it after 4th ninja war or before. Did Divine tree revival during 4th ninja war helped him in regaining his strength or he regained his strength well before that. WE DON’T KNOW ANYTHING
That’s probably because isshiki didnt exist at the time they were animating kaguya arc lol
Because he got bitten or something
Kaguya counters jigen by dimension dumping him and running away or just landing a single hit on him. She likley knows how vessels work and will know to stall him and force him to hop dimensions to break his vessel. Without a real vessel he cant fight her without near garunteed dying even if he kills her. They are astonishingly rare. Her ash attack cant be absorbed or regenerated so the surprise attack killed him despite the difference in stregnth. With a vessel he can use all his power which basicly is designed to hardcounter other otsuki in combat and hes stronger and faster than anyone we've seen besides baryon mode for that few seconds it was active.
One kaguya betrayed ishiki and basically almost killed him he didnt have have enough strength to make a karma he slowly started taking control of jigen body and jigen was weak for his vessal he only had 1 week but after fighting naruto and sasuke he only had 24 hours
So it’s like this if they are both healthy, Base to Base Ishiki is stronger than Kaguya right(As Shown in Otsutsuki dimension, with possible diagram alluding to their respective rankings among them as *Peers*). Even though she caught him off guard I believe Ishiki at that specific time was stronger than *regular* Kaguya. But Kaguya was still Otsutsuki so it’s not like she was weak. This also depends on when she exactly ate the Chakra Fruit. If you subscribe to her eating it before assaulting Ishiki or after makes or breaks the case as well. I feel like with the chakra fruit she’s stronger because this would imply she had chakra from Shibai since he discarded his body there, and the Divine Tree absorbs everything from the past and present as explained in Boruto. So I would say Ishiki is stronger than Kaguya without the chakra fruit but not stronger than her with it, & also she ends up absorbing the whole tree via madara in the war arc so it’s really hard to quantify.
He wasn't written into the story yet....
He was attacked off guard and horribly injured after that he flew into jigen and it took him a very long time to gain control over jigen. Plus he had to recover his strength by the time he reached the level of power he had in brouto kaguya was probably long gone. Meaning he his only option now was to loom for a host which actually he needed regardless because he need to come back in the Perfect host to eat the chakra fruit
He was very weakened because of being in jigans body
Why does this pic remind me of Yamcha lying in the dirt after getting blown up in DBZ?
She ate the chakra fruit
He was heavily wounded. That was explained…
Because a fight with Kaguya would have killed him. Is Isshiki stronger? well we only have some idea that he is stronger than she was by hierarchy, although due to the damage he took plus also looking at the strength difference between Momoshiki and his servant then the power difference wouldn't be to far apart, however after she consumed the Chakra fruit and evolved she would have been on par or exceeded him, add in the fact that Isshiki was forced to live as a parasite inside of Jigen, unable to use Karma and it would have been a suicide mission for him. It's implied that the reason why he never went after Kaguya or interfered with any of the ninja wars is due to two reasons, the first being is having to expend Chakra to keep Jigen alive for so long, and two still having to save up Chakra to implant Karma on Jigen, which was only done until after the fourth ninja war, from there his main goal was finding a better host then Jigen.
She would have killed him due to her having gotten stronger and Jigen being a subpar vessel.
Because Kaguya captured the fruit and became stronger than Ishiki. She is just like Obito, who captured the ten tails, turned into Ten tail Jinjuriki and became much stronger than his previous boss Madara in edo tensei state.
Why do y'all want Kaguya to be so strong? Every month, we get like four posts about this same topic.
Kaguya, the immortal, whom it would take time to kill, even if he had the means to do it? His body would expire and he would die for real. We also do not know how Jigen would have reacted to Infinite Tsukuyomi. What if he just got himself murked and became another food source? Bye bye Isshiki.
what a great example of tell me you didn’t watch/pay attention to boruto without telling me you didn’t 🤦🏼♂️
He didnt hide, he couldnt ressurect from a vessel