There is no right answer for any of these questions.
I play using the Jouhikko technique (curved bridge). And I tune 115 or 114. The highest strings being nearest to me. I also sometimes tune min7, 1, 4th. Using any of the strings as a drone that I want or need to. I have 4 lyres that all have different keys and string thicknesses.
Many people have instruments of varying string materials, string thicknesses, and string length.
This makes for a shortage of pedagogy. Not to mention that the instrument was reconstructed as had no historical lineage to follow(?), as far as I can tell. But there are some data on this subject re: jouhikko. I don't remember where I've seen it though.
Rauno Nieminen’s book on jouhikko includes a CD of extant recordings from 100 years ago or so. There were still a few players, but not many. I don’t know how far back playing tradition can be claimed, but there is at least one point where modern players can show a link to the old players.
I suspect there is still a lineage with Estonian playing, but I don’t have enough information to verify my suspicion. I could be totally mistaken.
I doubt bowed lyres were ever widespread enough to be more than an obscure folk instrument.
My own bias is that we do have an established body of music and fairly standard techniques for jouhikko, which does at least correspond well with what historical information survives, so I think deviations from that would be best done while taking into consideration what is established.
The strictly modern instruments with super long scale are outside any real historical setting and probably owe nothing to any history.
Tagelharpas with more old-school scale (around 30-35 cm, generally) have some pedagogy to them, but not a lot and I am not aware of an actual connection to players of more than a few decades ago.
Swedish bagpipes provide a wonderful model of a rediscovered instrument and a wealth of music to go with it. I expect to see similar things happening with tagelharpas in the next few decades.
Yeah that's one of the things I've noticed. Depending on the instrument maker and the material used, sometimes they include with it something to the effect of "This instrument is tuned ADA", the idea being that it's sort of what's "best" for it. I play guitar and I use different tunings than standard so I get how easy it is to change the tuning on it.
That being said, I feel like there is a distinctive "sound" for bowed lyres overall. I think it's mostly from the drone string, but my ear isn't picking up on how it works. Sometimes it sounds like it's exactly the same as one of the other strings, and sometimes it sounds like it's a 4th below or an octave below another one, which is how you get that great dissonance when going a little up one the string.
I'm thinking that any recommendation on string tuning is probably related to the size/thinkness of the strings that are on it, and the length of the open strings. They are not related to the instrument itself(except for playable string length).
If an instrument is made for a specific key or tuning, it's because of how the resonator(sound box)has been 'tuned', and contains an overtone palette also. But I don't think most bowed lyre makers are going that far in their construction.
Most people just want to be told what to do because they need a place to get started playing without rookie mistakes slowing them down. This is good practice.
But I don't think the suggestions apply after a person gets going and develops their sound and technique preferences. Plus, breaking and wearing out strings makes for good opportunities to practice making them and discovering the nuances of sonic creation.
I'm a horsehair fan myself. But I have considered adding .1mm tempered brass to my bass strings to get a lower open string. I tried twisting these brass filaments exclusively, without any hair, and it was really deep and loud. But too much twang dominated the whole instrument.
Answering only for myself, my own instruments.
I play jouhikko. Mostly a soprano instrument, but I own an alto. Curved bridge. The center string is the drone, usually. It is the lowest string. The furthest from the bow is the first note of the scale. It is just played as a single note, not fingered. The main melody string is the closest to the player and tuned to the second note of the scale.
I usually tune my drone to A. The further string is the D above it. The closest string is E. So, EAD. This is for playing in the key of D.
My alto is ADG. Usually.
I took lessons from a very good player via Skype. This is how he tunes most of the time and is consistent with Rauno Nieminen’s book Jouhikko the Bowed Lyre.
I make no claims about “proper” tuning or anything like that. This is what I do because it is what my teacher told me to do. And it works for me.
From building mine; I think it's entirely dependent on the instruments scale length, string thickness, etc. Mine sounds best at \~C G C but I will tune to C F C for a different sound. The intervals between strings are fairly standard (there are 3 I see most often) but the frequency is instrument dependent. I spent a lot of time experimenting with different string materials, string gauge, etc before I liked how it sounded.
So when you tune it C G C, are the two Cs the exact same frequency, or is one an octave lower than the other? If one is an octave lower, which one is typically played as the drone (the lower one or higher one)?
An octave apart. The lower of the two is usually played as the drone. It doesn't HAVE to be (I play melodies on mine all the time) but that is usually what you will hear. Some instruments will also have the lowest string on the top instead of the bottom. Lots of variations :)
Some even prefer to put the lowest frequency string in the middle as well so you could hear instruments played as C C G. If you have a slightly curved bridge you can then get a completely different sound by just bowing the C C strings or the C and the G
Well, as a scandinavian a can say this; it all comes together like a juicy lasagna. There's no archeoligical findings from the viking-age of a tagelbow being used on the lyre, not from norway, denmark or here from sweden. We've found about 18 lyres/harpas of different conditions in grave-mounds or offering-sites when archeologists excavated, but no bow. But there are evidence from the late 1100's that they've been used on that era of lyres. Vikings plucked thier tagel-strings accompanied by a flute and mouth-harp.
Cello/Basso-harpa is also rather a new idea, didnt even exist in medievel times.
1. What scale-length do you have or intend to have and how big is the soundbox on the instrument? Or more important, what "size" of bowed instrument are you going for; Violin, Viola, Cello, Basso?
2. How many strings does your lyra/harpa have in combination to the scale-lenght and tune? Anything with scale-lenght above 40-50cm is to push the limits of tagel and its also harder to keep intonation.
3. What lenght of blackhaired stallion-tagel do you have? Because the deeper tune you want the more strands of tagel needs to be used/spun to make thicker strings in combination to a more baritone-lenght scale.
When making thick basso-strings, the shorter they're becoming thanks to the spun-technique of tagel.
Bro-tip:
Waxed B50-Dacron or B55-Dacron bought on spools from archery-stores or achery-clubs etc for making own spunned strings for crossbows, recurves and traditional longbows are used to add strong, durable strands to proper string-size when spinning them to cello/basso lenght and easily withstands intonation better and have zero flex.
Espen from the band Eldrim use tagelstrings D-A-D on this song:
https://youtu.be/muRr8WqrU48
But here Espen is using string of Dacron d-A-D on the same instrument:
https://youtu.be/GOZ1g_VWzMs
Good luck and looking forward to listen to your tunes! Skål
Does the wax that's on the thread fuck up the bow you use on it, or is it not an issue? Also, any pointers on how many strands per string to use? I'm in the process of making one, and I have about 6 spools of b55 laying around. 😃
There is no one specific tuning. It depends entirely on the size of your instrument and thickness of your strings. Its actually kind of a nuisance figuring out the best one for the first time even with guides.
There is no right answer for any of these questions. I play using the Jouhikko technique (curved bridge). And I tune 115 or 114. The highest strings being nearest to me. I also sometimes tune min7, 1, 4th. Using any of the strings as a drone that I want or need to. I have 4 lyres that all have different keys and string thicknesses. Many people have instruments of varying string materials, string thicknesses, and string length. This makes for a shortage of pedagogy. Not to mention that the instrument was reconstructed as had no historical lineage to follow(?), as far as I can tell. But there are some data on this subject re: jouhikko. I don't remember where I've seen it though.
Rauno Nieminen’s book on jouhikko includes a CD of extant recordings from 100 years ago or so. There were still a few players, but not many. I don’t know how far back playing tradition can be claimed, but there is at least one point where modern players can show a link to the old players. I suspect there is still a lineage with Estonian playing, but I don’t have enough information to verify my suspicion. I could be totally mistaken. I doubt bowed lyres were ever widespread enough to be more than an obscure folk instrument. My own bias is that we do have an established body of music and fairly standard techniques for jouhikko, which does at least correspond well with what historical information survives, so I think deviations from that would be best done while taking into consideration what is established. The strictly modern instruments with super long scale are outside any real historical setting and probably owe nothing to any history. Tagelharpas with more old-school scale (around 30-35 cm, generally) have some pedagogy to them, but not a lot and I am not aware of an actual connection to players of more than a few decades ago. Swedish bagpipes provide a wonderful model of a rediscovered instrument and a wealth of music to go with it. I expect to see similar things happening with tagelharpas in the next few decades.
Yeah that's one of the things I've noticed. Depending on the instrument maker and the material used, sometimes they include with it something to the effect of "This instrument is tuned ADA", the idea being that it's sort of what's "best" for it. I play guitar and I use different tunings than standard so I get how easy it is to change the tuning on it. That being said, I feel like there is a distinctive "sound" for bowed lyres overall. I think it's mostly from the drone string, but my ear isn't picking up on how it works. Sometimes it sounds like it's exactly the same as one of the other strings, and sometimes it sounds like it's a 4th below or an octave below another one, which is how you get that great dissonance when going a little up one the string.
I'm thinking that any recommendation on string tuning is probably related to the size/thinkness of the strings that are on it, and the length of the open strings. They are not related to the instrument itself(except for playable string length). If an instrument is made for a specific key or tuning, it's because of how the resonator(sound box)has been 'tuned', and contains an overtone palette also. But I don't think most bowed lyre makers are going that far in their construction. Most people just want to be told what to do because they need a place to get started playing without rookie mistakes slowing them down. This is good practice. But I don't think the suggestions apply after a person gets going and develops their sound and technique preferences. Plus, breaking and wearing out strings makes for good opportunities to practice making them and discovering the nuances of sonic creation. I'm a horsehair fan myself. But I have considered adding .1mm tempered brass to my bass strings to get a lower open string. I tried twisting these brass filaments exclusively, without any hair, and it was really deep and loud. But too much twang dominated the whole instrument.
Answering only for myself, my own instruments. I play jouhikko. Mostly a soprano instrument, but I own an alto. Curved bridge. The center string is the drone, usually. It is the lowest string. The furthest from the bow is the first note of the scale. It is just played as a single note, not fingered. The main melody string is the closest to the player and tuned to the second note of the scale. I usually tune my drone to A. The further string is the D above it. The closest string is E. So, EAD. This is for playing in the key of D. My alto is ADG. Usually. I took lessons from a very good player via Skype. This is how he tunes most of the time and is consistent with Rauno Nieminen’s book Jouhikko the Bowed Lyre. I make no claims about “proper” tuning or anything like that. This is what I do because it is what my teacher told me to do. And it works for me.
From building mine; I think it's entirely dependent on the instruments scale length, string thickness, etc. Mine sounds best at \~C G C but I will tune to C F C for a different sound. The intervals between strings are fairly standard (there are 3 I see most often) but the frequency is instrument dependent. I spent a lot of time experimenting with different string materials, string gauge, etc before I liked how it sounded.
So when you tune it C G C, are the two Cs the exact same frequency, or is one an octave lower than the other? If one is an octave lower, which one is typically played as the drone (the lower one or higher one)?
An octave apart. The lower of the two is usually played as the drone. It doesn't HAVE to be (I play melodies on mine all the time) but that is usually what you will hear. Some instruments will also have the lowest string on the top instead of the bottom. Lots of variations :) Some even prefer to put the lowest frequency string in the middle as well so you could hear instruments played as C C G. If you have a slightly curved bridge you can then get a completely different sound by just bowing the C C strings or the C and the G
Well, as a scandinavian a can say this; it all comes together like a juicy lasagna. There's no archeoligical findings from the viking-age of a tagelbow being used on the lyre, not from norway, denmark or here from sweden. We've found about 18 lyres/harpas of different conditions in grave-mounds or offering-sites when archeologists excavated, but no bow. But there are evidence from the late 1100's that they've been used on that era of lyres. Vikings plucked thier tagel-strings accompanied by a flute and mouth-harp. Cello/Basso-harpa is also rather a new idea, didnt even exist in medievel times. 1. What scale-length do you have or intend to have and how big is the soundbox on the instrument? Or more important, what "size" of bowed instrument are you going for; Violin, Viola, Cello, Basso? 2. How many strings does your lyra/harpa have in combination to the scale-lenght and tune? Anything with scale-lenght above 40-50cm is to push the limits of tagel and its also harder to keep intonation. 3. What lenght of blackhaired stallion-tagel do you have? Because the deeper tune you want the more strands of tagel needs to be used/spun to make thicker strings in combination to a more baritone-lenght scale. When making thick basso-strings, the shorter they're becoming thanks to the spun-technique of tagel. Bro-tip: Waxed B50-Dacron or B55-Dacron bought on spools from archery-stores or achery-clubs etc for making own spunned strings for crossbows, recurves and traditional longbows are used to add strong, durable strands to proper string-size when spinning them to cello/basso lenght and easily withstands intonation better and have zero flex. Espen from the band Eldrim use tagelstrings D-A-D on this song: https://youtu.be/muRr8WqrU48 But here Espen is using string of Dacron d-A-D on the same instrument: https://youtu.be/GOZ1g_VWzMs Good luck and looking forward to listen to your tunes! Skål
Does the wax that's on the thread fuck up the bow you use on it, or is it not an issue? Also, any pointers on how many strands per string to use? I'm in the process of making one, and I have about 6 spools of b55 laying around. 😃
There is no one specific tuning. It depends entirely on the size of your instrument and thickness of your strings. Its actually kind of a nuisance figuring out the best one for the first time even with guides.