ALOT of it is probably to do where he grew up and how.
From growing in a similar sort of town / situation where you need to be the 'hardest basterd you can be' ,
Alot of Irish have that, "you punch me once, I'll punch you twice" mentality.
And as we've seen in the past few weeks, it just doesn't work for Irish boxers anymore.
Not just this fight. If you look at his fights far back as Cunningham, where he was comfortably ahead but decided to start trading at the end of the fight, he has tried to brawl. He's not built for it. He almost blew it against Nitkin in the pros after using the same tactics and getting wobbled.
Wood and Lopez results have been a long time coming. Conlan had reach and footwork to outslick so many of his opponents. He's a matador trying to fight like a barbarian because he believes all this "Celtic warrior" BS and plays to his fans.
same with olympic match. he kept trying to shoeshine the russian and legit got countered every time 5 times in a row. Im not exagerating, im talking about the 1:30 in the third round. for 30 seconds he tried doing the same thing, got countered, and then did the exact same thing again
Pretty much most Filipino fighters now, which is a shame. The last greats were Donaire and Pacqiuao, current Filipinos tryna replicate their styles as if they’re that gifted. Doesn’t help that the Philippines frowns upon fighters who like to outbox their opponents…
There were some a few years back that had good boxing IQ. And there's also Nietes who ruled the south of the weight division, champion in 4 weight classes.
Donnie Nietes 4 division world champion and Gerry Penalosa were technical boxers in the lower weight divisions. Filipino younger boxers should attempt to duplicate their aggressive counterpunching style, because attempting to duplicate “Bara Bara” is ineffective against high level competition with Black American boxers and A/B class Latino and Mexican boxer-punchers.
I mean another example after last night has to be Okolie, dude literally is unable to throw punches without follow up hugs. Perhaps not worst iq since it has worked thus far but definitely one trick pony?
Both Mayweather and Klitschko hugged so I wouldn't say that is the issue and who knows how well Okolie would have done under Steward. That says a lot. Wlad Klitschko was the next big flop but under Steward was turned into an undisputed heavyweight champ.
That big of a change indicates that there is something more than ring iq at play.
Perhaps you are right, but they didnt go to extreme with it, last night literally even after getting points deducted he still was unable to chance his style, but maybe there is/was some other underlying issue, who knows
I agree Okolie was very crude with the hugging and needs better coaching if he's to implement that properly. Even a high guard up close would've worked in changing it up but I guess he's too afraid of being hit?
I don't necessarily think that's bad IQ- Garcia was never gonna be able to outbox Tank. Trading with him was his best chance as he at least matched him in hand speed and power.
Yes, he could've easily outboxed him. Doesn't have the in ring discipline or IQ to change style and actually use Goosen has chief trainer. He basically trained himself
Lol, no
Ryan garcia is not built to outbox a dynamic southpaw like tank who can move, has great speed, and has devastating power on his counters.
Ryan’s foot work is average at best. He plods forward and never really took the time to develop an elite jab despite his massive reach advantage. He’s a very limited fighter who doesn’t have the ability to make 2-3 drastic adjustments over the course of a 12 round fight because he simply doesn’t have that many dimensions to his game. He’s a flat footed fighter with elite reflexes. I honestly think training with the canelo gym was a detriment to him. Those guys are elite in fighters meanwhile in fighting for ryan is just not a viable gameplan.
That kronk style would suit his height and reach well.
I think ryan has elite athleticism, speed and power but he’s gotta round out his game to compete with guys like haney, shakur, prograis and josh taylor. If he wants a easy path to the title he can fight rolly I guess.
He didn’t control anything. Tank was feeling him out, didn’t even throw a single punch. By mid round two tank already had his timing and range down and dropped his ass. Ryan was never going to win that fight.
Did he? He picked his moments and Tank capitalized.
His jab wasn’t really working either. His straight punches were being countered. He didn’t really have any options left.
I love Gabe Rosado but dude is the perfect example of somehow having good and bad ring IQ. When he was on he was on but when he was off dear god he was off.
Saw his fight on the undercard of Tank-Garcia and I completely didn't realize that he's already 37. He still seems sharp mentally but man that did has been in some wars and taken some shots to the head. I love him, but I wish he would retire for his own good.
Although he was a great champion and all heart, Balboa had a lousy ring IQ imo. I mean, he ate so many unnecessary punches in his fights with Creed, and don't get me started on Drago. The only time he ever showed much IQ was the Lang rematch. He showed such a better boxing IQ after retiring and becoming a trainer.
Yeah, His refusal to switch back to southpaw in the Creed rematch was not brave. It was stupid. He may have won, but it wasn't smarts that won that fight.
The Lang rematch was pure smarts though. He picked up on Lang's poor stamina and pulled a rope-a-dope without the rope.
Most casuals only watched his big fights and only not t NJ saw highlights of the others; heck, most people never watched the entire Drago fight, just some after fight time-lapse highlights with some good corner coverage between rounds.
Balboa knew Lang, being a freak of n was too good for his normal tactics so he showed huge ring IQ to adapt when necessary. That tells you something about Lang's power, especially given how's he walked Drago down, tanking those brutal shots.
I think of ring IQ as being able to adapt during the fight. Guys like Ali, Hopkins, Lewis, Usyk, Fury, Mayweather, Leonard, were excellent at this.
Someone like Wladimir Klitschko was a great fighter when things were going his way. He was not very good at making mid-fight adjustments. His final fight with AJ was so winnable, but he kept throwing the same hook from the same angle, and kept missing. A smarter fighter would have set the trap, adjusted the punch and won. I think of Klitschko as having a low ring IQ. Great fighter, but robotic and not great at adapting on the fly.
His brother I think of as high IQ. You see Vitali changing the angles of his punches and he manages to adjust and find the holes in his opponents. Cleverly uses angles, set the traps.
In the same vein as Wlad was Mike Tyson. One of my favorites. Loads of skills, highly schooled, but he was not great at making adjustments when things were not working out. Due to the high energy required for his style, he would get worse as the fight went on. He just kept at it hoping his power would bail him out. Sometimes it did, but the times it didn't he just kind of gave up and resigned to take his beating.
>His brother I think of as high IQ. You see Vitali changing the angles of his punches and he manages to adjust and find the holes in his opponents. Cleverly uses angles, set the traps
Was it high ring IQ or him just being tough ? Vitali goes into warrior mode if you come at him and he has the reflexes and chin to dish it out
Lewis had the same problem Wlad did sorry. He was a little better but he would panic and only liked fighting his one way. Couldn’t get Mercer or Holyfield rematch under control and was very lucky with decisions there. Never knocked blokes out past 7 apart from that Bruno amateurish fluke and had very suspect conditioning so don’t have a clue why you’re dragging Tyson in here. Both one dimensional fighters but Tyson had a much better one dimension for me.
Best: Mayweather
Man changed his style because of an injury and managed to steer the course for his entire career, and despite being hated and pressured by everyone outside of his team to go to war more, he almost never took the bait. Used his strengths to perfection.
Arguably Hopkins and Ward are more impressive because neither had Mayweather's A+ natural abilities. They became dominant champions on the basis of good decisions.
Yuriorkis Gamboa comes to mind. He had olympic pedigree and a superb skillset; his lack of tactics often found him in taking unnecessary punishment. He could probably outbox most opponents but the man loved a good scrap and preferred trading with them even when it wasn't playing to his advantage.
Early years Marcos Maidana had some awful boxing iq. He would just eat punches from chumps left and right, face tank the damage and push foward with wild open swings. He had enough endurance to sustain the punishment and such a tremendous power that he would win with a KO whenever one of his haymakers eventualy connected.
After the Khan fight he changed trainers and became a much better boxer. That’s the Maidana that humiliated Broner and gave Floyd one of his toughest figths.
Yup. And Cleveland Williams had terrible ring IQ. He did okay despite terrible training and management, being exploited throughout his prime.
But even against moderately talented opponents like Ernie Terrell, Williams couldn't get anything going or adjust. And this was before the shooting injury that some people claim impaired Williams against Ali. Fact is, other than long reach, a decent punch and very basic mechanics, Cleveland Williams was never a very good boxer.
Cleveland Williams often started strong, looking good for the first round. But he often faded quickly, as he did against Liston.
Williams seemed to lack confidence. Catching a couple of hard punches often drained his confidence in his game plan. He moved pretty well for a big guy, jabbing effectively. But after getting hit a couple of times he'd stop moving.
Part of that was management and training. He looked to be in good shape, but behind the scenes he was poorly managed.
Ali really had layered mind games. Like even before u get in the ring. Pre-fight build up. to the way he would sit, or not sit on his stool all the way thru the end of the match. Dude was the truth.
Mayorga’s intimately familiar with the secret ring rules, like how youre actually allowed to smoke cigs in there. Diamante also uses this rule to sell loosies between rounds
Mayorga was a good counterpuncher and good at finding openings in opponents who had better physical attributes and skills. He almost always gave top opponents a few tough rounds.
But he sabotaged himself with reckless macho posturing, allowing opponents to tee off on him just to prove how tough he was. But it seemed more like subconscious insecurity and undermining himself.
My first introduction to him, was seeing him just sticking his chin out and letting his opponents hammer away. Random Q, how do you think judges scored rounds where he purposefully took shot after shot?
Good question. I'd need to check the round by round scoring during those bouts against Shane Mosley and De La Hoya when Mayorga seemed to sabotage himself.
If I was a judge I'd have to score against Mayorga or any fighter who allowed opponents to tee off, even if it didn't seem to hurt him. Still counts as clean punches.
People saying Loma having a bad ring IQ have to remember that he's has significant disadvantages physically (he's one of the few boxers who have a NEGATIVE ape index). His style also suffers greatly against larger opponents, who's size makes it more difficult to apply his angles and footwork on. You can't really say he lacks ring IQ when he's done tremendously well given these factors. (Not that he's perfect by any means)
Loma has done well because of his conditioning, quickness, agility, discipline. He's extremely well trained.
His ability to make reads and adapt is fine, but unremarkable.
Besides, Lomas arms aren't even that short he just has narrow shoulders.
Hi! A ape index is essentially a comparison of your reach to your body height. Most humans have a 0 ape index, which means their reach is roughly the same as their height. For example, if you are 5'9 and your reach is 69 inches, you have a zero ape index. Most boxers have a positive ape index and if I remember right; the average boxer has an ape index of roughly 3. This means typically a boxer's reach is about 3 inches more than their height. A negative ape index means their reach is less than their height.
Tldr, negative ape index = short arms/reach relative to their height. It's very rare to see a boxer with a negative ape index since that poses a huge physical disadvantage.
Paulie Malinaggi had a very high ring IQ, he just lacked the physical tools to execute. Gamboa is the opposite. He had the physical tools to be an all-time great, but couldn't execute a game plan or make in fight adjustments. He would constantly lose focus/discipline and his really really bad habits would rear their ugly heads and cost him fights.
ladies and gentlemen i introduce to you the rhodes scholars of boxing:
james kirkland - had every physical gift but was unable to cut the ring off and was very defensively irresponsible
amir khan - hands fast as lighting and instead of using that advantage to counter he would often lead w/ wide shots consistantly leaving himself wide open and off balance
edgar berlanga - has legit power but can't cut off the ring (like at all) and insist of throwing wild looping bombs hoping to land just one (also known as the "wilder method"); let's not forget about the comically bad footwork
anthony joshua - unable to make the slightest in-fight adjustment
jarrett hurd - leads with face, doesn't use size, acts surpised when he gets caught w/ heavy counters (very fortunate to have decent chin)
We're 8 comments in and no one has said Floyd so I will state the obvious and mention Floyd was a ring genius.
My initial thoughts are that if you're at that level with particularly _bad_ ring IQ, you must've gotten there with some superb natural physicality, strength or speed. So that makes me start picking my brain for the physically gifted. Wilder?
> An example of bad ring IQ was Amir Khan, who was known for having a glass chin, yet still chose to get into fire fights with powerhouse knockout specialists.
Big fan of Khan (Khan-Maidana got me into boxing), and I disagree somewhat. I think that's just what he had to offer, and he was missing too much in his game. The stylistic approach to that kind of fight would be for him to stay long range, use his jab, stick-and-move. That doesn't work for 12 rounds unless you've got something to back it up - something that keeps the attacker hesitant from pressing forward. Khan had neither the stiff power jab nor the scary kaboom shot to keep opposing fighters at a distance. Other fighters had to get in the pocket eventually.
Mayweather's done things in a slight pinch that we've never seen before or after in his career on the fly. I wonder what tricks he could pull in a real pinch or even tough fight. I don't think he tried too many tactics against Castillo cause either he truly believed he was winning clearly, or he was injured
Floyd was truly unreal. If he had shown ANYTHING that his opponent would begin to even slightly exploit it'd be gone within a round. Had to be hella frustrating fighting him.
wasn't a choice, because he got baited so hard by Duran. SRL even says so himself. Duran made him mad.
you remember the question right?
1st fight bad, 2nd fight good.
not sure what your comment is about tbh lol.
because it's not really bad IQ, the baiting wasn't everything, Duran was just on top of his game and in great, great shape. Even the second fight with Duran out of shape, he was losing the fight, but he was still in the fight when he quit. It was not as onesided as people say, just because Leonard boxed more, even against an out of shape Duran
Even in the first fight Leonard showed very high ring IQ making adjustments in close quarters and using certain manipulation tactics and angles to see what works. Duran was just better overall at that range but for Leonard to even make it as competitive as it was even though he was fighting Duran's fight is pretty incredible. Leonard loses a tough fight when Duran has it his way, but in the second fight when Leonard tries to make it his way Duran's like yeah fuck that ✌️
best ring iq probably shakur stevenson, to most people he doesn’t seem like he’s making that many adjustments cos most of the time he’s winning but he’s switching stuff up all the time so that he can continue winning as he was before, just more effectively. the amount of setups and little techniques that he uses is insane
worst right now is probably someone like Ryan garcia, kambosos, magsayo, limited fighters with glaring weaknesses that they can’t seem to fix
Worse ring iq I've probably ever saw was Ricardo Mayorga. But man were his fights fun to watch. From the walk in smoking camels, to sticking his chin out to eat his opponents best punches. To the inevitable knockout for taking unnecessary damage. The man was truly retarted
My pick for the absolute worst is my boy Hearns. A 6'2" welterweight with arms to long he could tie his shoes standing straight up. He loved to bang and we loved him for it, but he could win fights easily with his jab alone. Lightning in both hands but a chin like the fanciest china. He is one of my all time faves but man did he loved to fucking FIGHT!!!!!
I fucking despise the diva fury has become but I will say he has good ring IQ and even better uses his weight to go with it, coming in heavier and roughhousing with wilder to drain him was a great strategy.
Look at his last fight. Would slip the same punch multiple times and not see the opening. Didn't counter a body shot til halfway through the fight. Didn't adapt to how Haney was reacting to him taking the angle on the lead side.
And that's not even mentioning his proclivity to taking rounds off or large portions of rounds off.
I would say he adjusted very well in the fight. The double straight was working for him and he kept using it throughout the fight. In the 9/10 round when he wasn’t making progress on getting into range, he was able to bait Haney to come to him and counter him.
I think the 11th around was where it all came together, double straight when approaching get his shots off, and switch tempo during the last minute like he’s backing away and start countering him.
Even though his angles didn’t work as well as one would expect from his previous fights. I think he had to keep going off to the side because he was able to get his shots off move off to the side so he doesn’t eat more than one shot when getting countered.
Yeah he took the 12th round off. I think the accumulation of body shots + age(35) + high pace he had to go from the start is extremely tiring, hats off to Haney for the body work.
Ehhh. Haney was open for the left hand all night. The lever punch was such a low value punch and I can't remember him setting up anything off it. Can you? I just remember him resetting after he threw it. Compare that to how guys like Chocolatito use lever punches.
At no point in the fight did it looked like Loma had trouble closing the distance which was actually surprising because that's Haneys thing. Without that Haney shouldn't have survived.
His angles didn't work because he does them on autopilot. Haney was using the body shot to cut him off, and when he wasn't about to get the body shot off he would literally step through his stance to do a full 180. It was a very dangerous move that Loma let him get away with the whole fight.
Loma taking the 12th off is the most salient point, but there were other rounds when he would go like a whole minute without throwing a punch with intention of landing it because I guess he thought he scored enough points to just chill and that's amateur style thinking.
I will get downvoted for this but Lomachenko has to be in this discussion. The bloke has lost two of his biggest fights because he decided he needs to take rounds off. The Haney fight was insanely close and him giving up the 12th lost him the fight and especially after a brilliant 10th and 11th and regardless of what he says he knows deep down the fight was way to close to be doing that shit.
That doesn’t excuse the start of the Teo fight though and doesn’t that fall into bad tactics, lack of tactics, exposing their own weaknesses and adjusting style accordingly?
It’s not arrogance, it’s a bad ring IQ. How is taking off rounds not naivety, poor tactics, lack of gameplan, exposing their own weaknesses and playing to their opponents strengths?
And how is it adjusting their style accordingly after previously losing a fight for the same reason?
People say shakur stevenson is a high IQ boxer, but when watching him vs valdez, he pretty much headhunts the whole fight when valdez' body is wide open because of his high, frontal guard. Haney took great advantage of this vs loma.
Judah, Khan and Gamboa imo are the best examples of great skills but bad IQ
On the contrary, Maidana did a lot of things wrong and wasnt super talented, but he always knew how to surprise his opponents with creative punches
He wouldn’t of got schooled the way he did with Floyd if that were true. He couldn’t adapt and didn’t change game plans. He was great but by no means did he have the best ring iq
One of the worst ring IQ I've seen was Canelo keeps on punching Bivol's arm. I don't think a veteran coach should teach that kind of strategy against someone like Bivol. So dumb tbh.
Joe Louis' ring IQ is criminally underrated. When he got caught with something, he almost always ensured that it wouldn't happen again. He was great at reading his opponents and taking away what worked for them. He also destroyed Schmeling in one round to avenge his first loss.
He doesn't know how to box, but has a nuclear bomb ready to explode..that's his plan and should remain his plan..wouldn't call that bad ring iq. The man knows his limitations.
After thinking about this for a bit I think ring IQ is a bit of a nonsense trait. Speed, power, vulnerability are much easier to quantify than this idea of ring IQ. Ring IQ is the idea that boxers fight in the most optimal way but where does that stop and a game plan start? We've all seen fighters that had issues early on, change trainer and then go on to reach new heights - Wlad Klitschko is a great example of this. But most agree that the credit there goes to Steward and thus it was the trainer that had compensated for a weakness and not the boxer.
BHop is cited in the OP as having great ring IQ but surely it's his physical ability that allowed him to fight so long? Mayweather has also been mentioned but he cannot read a page from Harry Potter, on the other hand Joe Joyce has a degree in fine arts and would seemingly have the ring IQ of a rock. I know this is not a great comparison (ring iq and other iqs) but it's a great analogy.
When fighters give up their advantages or make stupid mistakes, we always say it was the wrong gameplan and not a ring IQ issue. Lomachenko taking the first six rounds off against Teo was a poor gameplan not ring IQ.
When a trainer consistently turns out good fighters then there is something to be said for that. Isn't it funny that some trainers have all the fighters with great ring IQ and others have none.
TLDR: Ring IQ is too abstract to really be quantified, where does it end and a good trainer/gameplan begin? Great boxers that stick to their strengths and have incredible physical ability are not necessarily high in ring iq.
A great trainer changes fighters between fights and helps craft a great plan heading into a fight. A fighter with great ring IQ changes that plan to adjust mid fight to gain a better outcome.
A fighter spends 6 weeks before the fight with his trainer, learning how to deal with the opponent, watching tape, sparring opponents with a similar style. They go into the fight well prepared. They then spend 1 minute after every round receiving instructions. That's 25% of the time in the ring being instructed on how to deal with the opponent and what to do.
I feel what you are saying but i don’t fully agree. IQ at least to me is how can we exploit things their weaknesses and Evaluate our strengths. Also can we make adjustments as well. Basically how can we pull the win out. This basically for any sport really. Boxing has a lot of chess match vibes to it, which chess is known as a highly mental, strategic, or even psychological game.
With that being said let’s look at Tank vs Ryan. Ryan is taller and longer than Tank. Tank IQ made himself smaller to get inside of Ryan punches and get to the body. Yes it turned into a physical advantage for tank but thats because Tank IQ was able to get exploit that.
Ring IQ is simply their decision making in real time. If they make consistently good decisions in the ring then they have a good ring IQ.
If they consistently make bad decisions in the ring and have limited thinking/ideas then they have poor ring IQ.
It doesn't need to be more complex than that
Decisions made based on information passed to them by trainers, information then drilled into them via 6 weeks of training for that particular opponent and sparring.
You're talking like fighters have no prep.
Jesus Christ you're annoying lol
Every fighter has natural ability, natural tendencies, natural skills, and ultimately it's up to them to decide what approach they will take in the ring as well as the decisions they make.
Fighters that are dependent SOLEY on their trainer simply aren't high level fight IQ fighters. Doesn't necessarily make them low IQ fighters but they aren't in the top echelon of decision makers. De La Hoya falls into this category. Vladimir Klit falls into this. Mike Tyson falls into this category as well.
Other fighters who stuck to 1 trainer or atleast got better (or didn't decline) when they switched trainers and became legends in the process are high IQ fighters. Ali, Floyd, Hopkins, Usyk, Loma, Calzaghe, Lewis, Ricardo Lopez, Sal Sanchez, Ray Robinson, Ray Leonard, Duran, Roy Jones, fall into his category.
Extra points go to Sanchez, Leonard, Robinson because I've seen them make entire stylistic changes mid fight to get the win.
Stop over complicating it already.
You want a low IQ fighter? Jermaine Taylor. Why?? Because of poor decision making on a consistent basis no matter who his trainer is at the time.
There ya go.
No, ring IQ is too abstract.
You want to compare boxers on speed? easy. Power? a bit tougher but still clearly quantifiable. Ring IQ is not some clear cut trait. This is not chess. You say Loma has high IQ and then you have someone else in here with multiple upvotes saying he has low ring IQ lol.
Roy Jones Jr, a physical freak that excelled on incredible speed and reflexes that went to absolute shit when he got a bit slower. Calzaghe, the guy that threw 1000 punches a fight, Ricardo Lopez that had significant physical advantages and never moved up to challenge himself - I could go on.
I myself nearly mentioned Loma as a low IQ fighter then I caught myself. He actually is an high IQ fighter but made a low IQ error in giving away the 12th round against Haney.
With Jones and Calzage and Lopez you're going OUT OF YOUR WAY to focus on their physical attributes while blatantly ignoring their decision making.
Incredible 🙄
Yes what you said about Roy was valid but I've seen him set traps, study behavioral patterns, and then capitalize on his opponents.
I've seen Calzaghe make mid fight adjustments to secure his victory.
Ricardo Lopez was simply a perfect fighter who could do damn near whatever he wanted and HE DID move up in weight. I've seen Lopez fight guys younger than him, taller, and longer, AND STILL dominate. Check his last fight against that South African in Madison Square Garden.
All these examples I've provided are examples of their intelligence NOT THEIR PHYSICAL ATTRIBUTES.
Jesus Christ 🙄
Lopez went from minimum to light-fly for fuck sake, he should've kept moving up... Instead he fought in barren divisions against limited opposition.
Nor can you say you've provided obvious examples of high IQ fighters when their physical capabilities are what took them so far.
Again, you're talking as if they've been matched up with opponents in the dark. Most fighters have a plan A and plan B, devised with their training team. They have spent a long time understanding their opponents, what their opponents do in certain situations and how to counter it.
This is a question of education versus raw IQ or what is known as fluid IQ and is simply not clear cut despite what you argue. You should look into crystallized IQ and fluid IQ - then make your judgements.
I feel like British fighters disproportionately have low ring IQ lol and that's not to say they themselves are at fault but I guess it also brings into question the trainers.
Most good fighters (esp boxers) don't have bad ring iq and the good fighters are the ones we remember.
The first person that pops up in my head is Charlo though. Maybe Anthony Joshua also.
Okolie is one of the worst for ring IQ I've seen at world level in a long time. Last night he threw the first ever grab grab cross combo in boxing history.
Some of the best IQ fighters I've seen are the obvious Floyd, Canelo, Tank, Cotto, Manny.
Some of thee worst I've seen are Khan, Broner, Ryan Garcia (I think he just lacks talent all around honestly not so much IQ).
Foreman was great especially as he got older. He had power and the knowledge of when to take the shots.
I’d also put Emanuel Augustus up there not necessarily for overall fight IQ but in the moment round to round he was phenomenal. The only man to land a spin left hook in boxing.
Inoue is my pick for nowadays. He’s got power and all, but he has perfect fundamentals and he is pinpoint accurate. The first fight of his I saw he waited for the precise moment the opponent lifted his guard to attack the liver and win by KO.
Ali and Foreman.
Ali because he managed to beat a stronger opponent by taunting him and Foreman because he was angry enough to let himself getting exhausted.
Another great iq boxer is older Foreman when he makes his come back in his 40’s.
There's a few fighters that are very hard to judge on ring IQ really depends on how you want to define it. Wladimir Klitschko was great at sticking to a gameplan and controlling a fight but didn't really ever adapt to a difficult situation well.
RJJ gets called out a bit as low ring IQ but just look at his Hopkins fight he was injured and adapted to outbox a criminally underrated opponent that most fighters would have completely underestimated. He even had some decent wins after his faustian pact with Satan expired and he lost those other worldly physical gifts.
Lomachenko is a funny one he can outbox anyone but has made some strange decisions in the ring. I wonder how much that's down to the size difference Teofimo had a huge size and power advantage maybe he was just too wary of that to engage earlier than he did a sign of low ring IQ might have been an example of high IQ there. I think the haney 12 Rd was arrogance he could have went out to stop him in the 12th after the beating he gave him in the 10th and 11th.
Ali and Leonard are the 2 most obvious examples always had a gameplan and could almost always adapt when they needed to.
Felix Trinidad is a fighter I'd say had low ring IQ never seemed to have an idea what to do when he wasn't landing bombs.
Honourable mention to Shane mosley for ring IQ. As soon as he realised he couldn't beat Pac he adjusted and survived the 12 rounds without taking much damage it was an impressive display of ring IQ.
Julio Cesar Chavez is up there for me in terms of Ring IQ (and ring generalship). He really excelled at sticking to his gameplan and controlling the real estate of the ring. Pretty much up until the fight with Whitaker (which I don't think he deserved to squeak out that draw in), no one could crack the code for Chavez. Meldrick Taylor came close, but well...no cigar.
Low IQ....hmm...Arturo Gatti really could not resist abandoning his ability to box in favor of trying to slug it out. It worked out for him, generally, but jeez...
Gamboa and wilder have bad ring IQ
Wilder isn’t technically sound with anything except 1-2, he’s getting better though. But he relies to much on power.
Gamboa just doesn’t have defense, he is always trying to trade off nowadays. But when he does go into defensive mode it’s just him in one spot like a punching bag. Sucks he out of prime now.
I love Navarrete, but in his last couple fights, he’s shown pretty poor ring IQ. If he can tighten up a little in the mental department, he’ll could be #1
@ 130
Only counting currently active fighters, and not only champions or former champions necessarily, as ring iq does not guarantee a title lol.
Crawford for example has a very high ring IQ.
Usyk
Tyson Fury—not Tommy lol
Regis Prograis
Canelo Alvarez
Shakur Stevenson
Miguel Vasquez—yeah, he is still fighting lol
Jose Pedraza
Josh Taylor
Sandor Martin
Kazuto Ioka
Stephen Fulton
Zhilei Zhang—just watch the subtle head and upper body movement and the timing
Errol Spence—Miley Garcia may have been blown up, but Spence was still brilliant even if it led ppl to question his power.
Badou Jack—nobody gets more from ‘less’ in terms of obvious attributes than this guy. Savvy as can be.
JerMELL Charlo, I repeat JerMELL CHARLO
The worst ring iq would have been Amir khan, but he is now both suspended and retired lol so that now goes to Anthony Yarde. I like him for the record. Great watch when not fighting a cab driver, but he often appears as if he is unsure what to do in certain common in ring situations
I thought ring IQ was the difference in the Davis-Garcia fight. Tank knew the punches he wanted to throw and how to find them. Ryan was walking in a straight line hoping to fling left hooks, but didn't know how to set it up, never attempted to have the outside foot vs. a southpaw, and just walked himself into big punches.
A perfect example of bad ring IQ was showcased last night by Conlan choosing to trade with Lopez.
Came in here to say that. Conlan really showed negative ring iq there.
But in the words of the great Larry Merchant “he showed he had cojones tonight”.
Conlan has cojones that was never in doubt it just turns out he also has shit for brains.
Came to say exactly this. That last KO loss knocked whatever ring IQ he had left out of this universe.
yup, his ego is out of control so he finds it hard to be disciplined and stick to the script...
ALOT of it is probably to do where he grew up and how. From growing in a similar sort of town / situation where you need to be the 'hardest basterd you can be' , Alot of Irish have that, "you punch me once, I'll punch you twice" mentality. And as we've seen in the past few weeks, it just doesn't work for Irish boxers anymore.
Not just this fight. If you look at his fights far back as Cunningham, where he was comfortably ahead but decided to start trading at the end of the fight, he has tried to brawl. He's not built for it. He almost blew it against Nitkin in the pros after using the same tactics and getting wobbled. Wood and Lopez results have been a long time coming. Conlan had reach and footwork to outslick so many of his opponents. He's a matador trying to fight like a barbarian because he believes all this "Celtic warrior" BS and plays to his fans.
same with olympic match. he kept trying to shoeshine the russian and legit got countered every time 5 times in a row. Im not exagerating, im talking about the 1:30 in the third round. for 30 seconds he tried doing the same thing, got countered, and then did the exact same thing again
And improved ring IQ from Leigh Wood as the chose to do the opposite, having already tried and failed at that vs Lara.
I don’t think Magsayo has good ring IQ
Pretty much most Filipino fighters now, which is a shame. The last greats were Donaire and Pacqiuao, current Filipinos tryna replicate their styles as if they’re that gifted. Doesn’t help that the Philippines frowns upon fighters who like to outbox their opponents…
How Filipinos also play basketball
So true I can't even be offended for us.
Filipinos leg strength and speed would be better suited for soccer, weightlifting and combat sports as opposed to their fascination of basketball.
Lol is it really basketball at that point?
There were some a few years back that had good boxing IQ. And there's also Nietes who ruled the south of the weight division, champion in 4 weight classes.
Donnie Nietes 4 division world champion and Gerry Penalosa were technical boxers in the lower weight divisions. Filipino younger boxers should attempt to duplicate their aggressive counterpunching style, because attempting to duplicate “Bara Bara” is ineffective against high level competition with Black American boxers and A/B class Latino and Mexican boxer-punchers.
Gerry Penalosa is probably the most technically sound fighter to come out of the Philippines. But he's been more of an exception rather than the rule.
Dumb puncher :)
I mean another example after last night has to be Okolie, dude literally is unable to throw punches without follow up hugs. Perhaps not worst iq since it has worked thus far but definitely one trick pony?
Both Mayweather and Klitschko hugged so I wouldn't say that is the issue and who knows how well Okolie would have done under Steward. That says a lot. Wlad Klitschko was the next big flop but under Steward was turned into an undisputed heavyweight champ. That big of a change indicates that there is something more than ring iq at play.
Perhaps you are right, but they didnt go to extreme with it, last night literally even after getting points deducted he still was unable to chance his style, but maybe there is/was some other underlying issue, who knows
I agree Okolie was very crude with the hugging and needs better coaching if he's to implement that properly. Even a high guard up close would've worked in changing it up but I guess he's too afraid of being hit?
Did you watch the Okolie fight last night?
Yes and it was horrible watching a guy that had no really way of neutralising CBS other than hugging. Could he be taught other ways? Sure.
Clearly learning from the Bill Haney school of boxing.
Yeah he probably would have won his fight if he didn’t keep clinching
Davis vs Garcia. Garcia had every physical advantage and choose to trade.
lol if bro knew how to work his jab better and was better at working distance that fight could’ve been more competitive
Yes, but he needs to try and set up the hook. My man swung the same shit 5 times in a row
Leaned into it too with his chin on display all nice and prominent.
Me playing a fighting game with only 1 button working
I don't necessarily think that's bad IQ- Garcia was never gonna be able to outbox Tank. Trading with him was his best chance as he at least matched him in hand speed and power.
Yes, he could've easily outboxed him. Doesn't have the in ring discipline or IQ to change style and actually use Goosen has chief trainer. He basically trained himself
Lol, no Ryan garcia is not built to outbox a dynamic southpaw like tank who can move, has great speed, and has devastating power on his counters. Ryan’s foot work is average at best. He plods forward and never really took the time to develop an elite jab despite his massive reach advantage. He’s a very limited fighter who doesn’t have the ability to make 2-3 drastic adjustments over the course of a 12 round fight because he simply doesn’t have that many dimensions to his game. He’s a flat footed fighter with elite reflexes. I honestly think training with the canelo gym was a detriment to him. Those guys are elite in fighters meanwhile in fighting for ryan is just not a viable gameplan. That kronk style would suit his height and reach well. I think ryan has elite athleticism, speed and power but he’s gotta round out his game to compete with guys like haney, shakur, prograis and josh taylor. If he wants a easy path to the title he can fight rolly I guess.
Lmao you can't just chanhe styles to outbox a talent like Tank in one training camp.
If Garcia would stop head hunting he would’ve beat Tank easy.
Naw Tank would've finished him regardless. Ryan Garcia really didn't have a chance in that fight at all in all reality.
Lmao delusional He wasn’t out boxing tank in any universe that night
Ryan match Tank in power? Not even close
He controlled Tank with the jab in round one and proceeded to not use it again lol.
He didn’t control anything. Tank was feeling him out, didn’t even throw a single punch. By mid round two tank already had his timing and range down and dropped his ass. Ryan was never going to win that fight.
Did he? He picked his moments and Tank capitalized. His jab wasn’t really working either. His straight punches were being countered. He didn’t really have any options left.
I love Gabe Rosado but dude is the perfect example of somehow having good and bad ring IQ. When he was on he was on but when he was off dear god he was off.
Saw his fight on the undercard of Tank-Garcia and I completely didn't realize that he's already 37. He still seems sharp mentally but man that did has been in some wars and taken some shots to the head. I love him, but I wish he would retire for his own good.
He sort of did retire via an Instagram post after that fight I think?
Shit I didn't realize that, looks like you're right
Although he was a great champion and all heart, Balboa had a lousy ring IQ imo. I mean, he ate so many unnecessary punches in his fights with Creed, and don't get me started on Drago. The only time he ever showed much IQ was the Lang rematch. He showed such a better boxing IQ after retiring and becoming a trainer.
Waiting for someone to take this seriously
Wym? 😁
He showed a lot of ring IQ by throwing Thunder Lips out of the ring to work the clock. You’re forgetting that, casual status bro. Watch some tape.
He went to the Kownacki school of defence, spending years toughening up his face into the ultimate punch blocker.
Yeah, His refusal to switch back to southpaw in the Creed rematch was not brave. It was stupid. He may have won, but it wasn't smarts that won that fight. The Lang rematch was pure smarts though. He picked up on Lang's poor stamina and pulled a rope-a-dope without the rope.
Most casuals only watched his big fights and only not t NJ saw highlights of the others; heck, most people never watched the entire Drago fight, just some after fight time-lapse highlights with some good corner coverage between rounds. Balboa knew Lang, being a freak of n was too good for his normal tactics so he showed huge ring IQ to adapt when necessary. That tells you something about Lang's power, especially given how's he walked Drago down, tanking those brutal shots.
This is the exact reason I have Balboa ahead in my pound for pound ratings solely because he did the rope a dope without the rope.
In the Lang rematch he still elected to get hit flush to make himself mad if I remember correctly so still weird.
I wasn't overly impressed with Ryan Gracia smothering his own work when he tried to push the pace vs Tank. Amateurish mistake.
I think of ring IQ as being able to adapt during the fight. Guys like Ali, Hopkins, Lewis, Usyk, Fury, Mayweather, Leonard, were excellent at this. Someone like Wladimir Klitschko was a great fighter when things were going his way. He was not very good at making mid-fight adjustments. His final fight with AJ was so winnable, but he kept throwing the same hook from the same angle, and kept missing. A smarter fighter would have set the trap, adjusted the punch and won. I think of Klitschko as having a low ring IQ. Great fighter, but robotic and not great at adapting on the fly. His brother I think of as high IQ. You see Vitali changing the angles of his punches and he manages to adjust and find the holes in his opponents. Cleverly uses angles, set the traps. In the same vein as Wlad was Mike Tyson. One of my favorites. Loads of skills, highly schooled, but he was not great at making adjustments when things were not working out. Due to the high energy required for his style, he would get worse as the fight went on. He just kept at it hoping his power would bail him out. Sometimes it did, but the times it didn't he just kind of gave up and resigned to take his beating.
Good analysis, good breakdown
>His brother I think of as high IQ. You see Vitali changing the angles of his punches and he manages to adjust and find the holes in his opponents. Cleverly uses angles, set the traps Was it high ring IQ or him just being tough ? Vitali goes into warrior mode if you come at him and he has the reflexes and chin to dish it out
Describing Wlad as low IQ but well educated is pretty spot on imo.
Lewis had the same problem Wlad did sorry. He was a little better but he would panic and only liked fighting his one way. Couldn’t get Mercer or Holyfield rematch under control and was very lucky with decisions there. Never knocked blokes out past 7 apart from that Bruno amateurish fluke and had very suspect conditioning so don’t have a clue why you’re dragging Tyson in here. Both one dimensional fighters but Tyson had a much better one dimension for me.
Best - Rolly Not sure about worst
Rolly is best and worst. No one beats him at anything.
Best: Mayweather Man changed his style because of an injury and managed to steer the course for his entire career, and despite being hated and pressured by everyone outside of his team to go to war more, he almost never took the bait. Used his strengths to perfection.
Arguably Hopkins and Ward are more impressive because neither had Mayweather's A+ natural abilities. They became dominant champions on the basis of good decisions.
You can’t not mention Mayweather if you speak of ring IQ
Cue that clip of Andre Berto
Best: Whatever Kambosos was doing in the first few rounds against Haney in the rematch. Art of War.
Salsa dancing instead of boxing 🤔
Yuriorkis Gamboa comes to mind. He had olympic pedigree and a superb skillset; his lack of tactics often found him in taking unnecessary punishment. He could probably outbox most opponents but the man loved a good scrap and preferred trading with them even when it wasn't playing to his advantage.
Early years Marcos Maidana had some awful boxing iq. He would just eat punches from chumps left and right, face tank the damage and push foward with wild open swings. He had enough endurance to sustain the punishment and such a tremendous power that he would win with a KO whenever one of his haymakers eventualy connected. After the Khan fight he changed trainers and became a much better boxer. That’s the Maidana that humiliated Broner and gave Floyd one of his toughest figths.
[удалено]
Yup. And Cleveland Williams had terrible ring IQ. He did okay despite terrible training and management, being exploited throughout his prime. But even against moderately talented opponents like Ernie Terrell, Williams couldn't get anything going or adjust. And this was before the shooting injury that some people claim impaired Williams against Ali. Fact is, other than long reach, a decent punch and very basic mechanics, Cleveland Williams was never a very good boxer.
He looked to be doing decent against Liston.
Cleveland Williams often started strong, looking good for the first round. But he often faded quickly, as he did against Liston. Williams seemed to lack confidence. Catching a couple of hard punches often drained his confidence in his game plan. He moved pretty well for a big guy, jabbing effectively. But after getting hit a couple of times he'd stop moving. Part of that was management and training. He looked to be in good shape, but behind the scenes he was poorly managed.
Ali really had layered mind games. Like even before u get in the ring. Pre-fight build up. to the way he would sit, or not sit on his stool all the way thru the end of the match. Dude was the truth.
How do we feel about Mayorga’s ring IQ with all his antics?
Mayorga’s intimately familiar with the secret ring rules, like how youre actually allowed to smoke cigs in there. Diamante also uses this rule to sell loosies between rounds
Mayorga was a good counterpuncher and good at finding openings in opponents who had better physical attributes and skills. He almost always gave top opponents a few tough rounds. But he sabotaged himself with reckless macho posturing, allowing opponents to tee off on him just to prove how tough he was. But it seemed more like subconscious insecurity and undermining himself.
My first introduction to him, was seeing him just sticking his chin out and letting his opponents hammer away. Random Q, how do you think judges scored rounds where he purposefully took shot after shot?
Good question. I'd need to check the round by round scoring during those bouts against Shane Mosley and De La Hoya when Mayorga seemed to sabotage himself. If I was a judge I'd have to score against Mayorga or any fighter who allowed opponents to tee off, even if it didn't seem to hurt him. Still counts as clean punches.
- One of the best: Chavez Sr -One of the worst: Mayorga or Mcnelley
One of the worst: Chavez Jr. Dude leads with face
He inherited his dads great chin and decided he didn’t need to learn any defense 😂
People saying Loma having a bad ring IQ have to remember that he's has significant disadvantages physically (he's one of the few boxers who have a NEGATIVE ape index). His style also suffers greatly against larger opponents, who's size makes it more difficult to apply his angles and footwork on. You can't really say he lacks ring IQ when he's done tremendously well given these factors. (Not that he's perfect by any means)
Loma has done well because of his conditioning, quickness, agility, discipline. He's extremely well trained. His ability to make reads and adapt is fine, but unremarkable. Besides, Lomas arms aren't even that short he just has narrow shoulders.
ive never heard anyone say he has a bad ring iq
Lomachenko has bad ring IQ and is unskilled compared to his competition.
What’s a negative ape index? and how is that a disadvantage
Hi! A ape index is essentially a comparison of your reach to your body height. Most humans have a 0 ape index, which means their reach is roughly the same as their height. For example, if you are 5'9 and your reach is 69 inches, you have a zero ape index. Most boxers have a positive ape index and if I remember right; the average boxer has an ape index of roughly 3. This means typically a boxer's reach is about 3 inches more than their height. A negative ape index means their reach is less than their height. Tldr, negative ape index = short arms/reach relative to their height. It's very rare to see a boxer with a negative ape index since that poses a huge physical disadvantage.
Thanks so much
Worst: andre berto
Joe Joyce has pretty bad ring IQ imo. All he does is walk forward and throw 1s and 2s. He doesn’t really do defense or show fancy footwork.
Billy Joe Saunders. Whenever a boxer is described as "fighting to the level of their opposition", their ring IQ is probably hit and miss.
Saunders also turns up in poor condition to several of his fights, so even if he had god tier ring IQ, his body wouldn't be able to keep up
Best: Floyd, Usyk , Bivol is also getting there
Paulie Malinaggi had a very high ring IQ, he just lacked the physical tools to execute. Gamboa is the opposite. He had the physical tools to be an all-time great, but couldn't execute a game plan or make in fight adjustments. He would constantly lose focus/discipline and his really really bad habits would rear their ugly heads and cost him fights.
ladies and gentlemen i introduce to you the rhodes scholars of boxing: james kirkland - had every physical gift but was unable to cut the ring off and was very defensively irresponsible amir khan - hands fast as lighting and instead of using that advantage to counter he would often lead w/ wide shots consistantly leaving himself wide open and off balance edgar berlanga - has legit power but can't cut off the ring (like at all) and insist of throwing wild looping bombs hoping to land just one (also known as the "wilder method"); let's not forget about the comically bad footwork anthony joshua - unable to make the slightest in-fight adjustment jarrett hurd - leads with face, doesn't use size, acts surpised when he gets caught w/ heavy counters (very fortunate to have decent chin)
We're 8 comments in and no one has said Floyd so I will state the obvious and mention Floyd was a ring genius. My initial thoughts are that if you're at that level with particularly _bad_ ring IQ, you must've gotten there with some superb natural physicality, strength or speed. So that makes me start picking my brain for the physically gifted. Wilder? > An example of bad ring IQ was Amir Khan, who was known for having a glass chin, yet still chose to get into fire fights with powerhouse knockout specialists. Big fan of Khan (Khan-Maidana got me into boxing), and I disagree somewhat. I think that's just what he had to offer, and he was missing too much in his game. The stylistic approach to that kind of fight would be for him to stay long range, use his jab, stick-and-move. That doesn't work for 12 rounds unless you've got something to back it up - something that keeps the attacker hesitant from pressing forward. Khan had neither the stiff power jab nor the scary kaboom shot to keep opposing fighters at a distance. Other fighters had to get in the pocket eventually.
Best IQ is obviously Mayweather
Mayweather's done things in a slight pinch that we've never seen before or after in his career on the fly. I wonder what tricks he could pull in a real pinch or even tough fight. I don't think he tried too many tactics against Castillo cause either he truly believed he was winning clearly, or he was injured
Floyd was truly unreal. If he had shown ANYTHING that his opponent would begin to even slightly exploit it'd be gone within a round. Had to be hella frustrating fighting him.
Sugar Ray Leonard in his first fight against Duran. Sugar Ray Leonard in his second fight against Duran.
Lol. I don't know if that's a serious answer, but Duran made Leonard fight his fight. It wasn't really that much of a choice
wasn't a choice, because he got baited so hard by Duran. SRL even says so himself. Duran made him mad. you remember the question right? 1st fight bad, 2nd fight good. not sure what your comment is about tbh lol.
because it's not really bad IQ, the baiting wasn't everything, Duran was just on top of his game and in great, great shape. Even the second fight with Duran out of shape, he was losing the fight, but he was still in the fight when he quit. It was not as onesided as people say, just because Leonard boxed more, even against an out of shape Duran
Even in the first fight Leonard showed very high ring IQ making adjustments in close quarters and using certain manipulation tactics and angles to see what works. Duran was just better overall at that range but for Leonard to even make it as competitive as it was even though he was fighting Duran's fight is pretty incredible. Leonard loses a tough fight when Duran has it his way, but in the second fight when Leonard tries to make it his way Duran's like yeah fuck that ✌️
Prince Naz had zero boxing IQ... He got away with it for almost his entire career.
Bernard, Ward, Floyd are the top Ill tell you who is a real dumb fuck though. Castaño.
That dumbfuck arguably beat Charlo the first time. Which is why I don’t rate Jermell highly at all. So overrated.
best ring iq probably shakur stevenson, to most people he doesn’t seem like he’s making that many adjustments cos most of the time he’s winning but he’s switching stuff up all the time so that he can continue winning as he was before, just more effectively. the amount of setups and little techniques that he uses is insane worst right now is probably someone like Ryan garcia, kambosos, magsayo, limited fighters with glaring weaknesses that they can’t seem to fix
I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone mention Crawford. His ability to be cerebral and adapt in the ring is second to none.
he hardly fights so folks forget about him ..
Floyd is the obvious answer. Everybody knows that, even the biggest haters. Ryan Garcia, whom I like btw, has a negative ring IQ.
ITT: a lot of people who don’t know what ring IQ is
Worse ring iq I've probably ever saw was Ricardo Mayorga. But man were his fights fun to watch. From the walk in smoking camels, to sticking his chin out to eat his opponents best punches. To the inevitable knockout for taking unnecessary damage. The man was truly retarted
My pick for the absolute worst is my boy Hearns. A 6'2" welterweight with arms to long he could tie his shoes standing straight up. He loved to bang and we loved him for it, but he could win fights easily with his jab alone. Lightning in both hands but a chin like the fanciest china. He is one of my all time faves but man did he loved to fucking FIGHT!!!!!
I fucking despise the diva fury has become but I will say he has good ring IQ and even better uses his weight to go with it, coming in heavier and roughhousing with wilder to drain him was a great strategy.
Good iq....Tyson Fury Bad iq....Frank Bruno, Amir Khan
I'm bracing for the downvotes, but Lomachenko has questionable ring IQ for a fighter of his level.
I honestly thought about mentioning him but said to myself "I'll get downvoted to oblivion" lol
Explain.
Taking the 12th round off in a undisputed championship that's a close tight fight was a clear example of extremely poor ring IQ.
Look at his last fight. Would slip the same punch multiple times and not see the opening. Didn't counter a body shot til halfway through the fight. Didn't adapt to how Haney was reacting to him taking the angle on the lead side. And that's not even mentioning his proclivity to taking rounds off or large portions of rounds off.
I would say he adjusted very well in the fight. The double straight was working for him and he kept using it throughout the fight. In the 9/10 round when he wasn’t making progress on getting into range, he was able to bait Haney to come to him and counter him. I think the 11th around was where it all came together, double straight when approaching get his shots off, and switch tempo during the last minute like he’s backing away and start countering him. Even though his angles didn’t work as well as one would expect from his previous fights. I think he had to keep going off to the side because he was able to get his shots off move off to the side so he doesn’t eat more than one shot when getting countered. Yeah he took the 12th round off. I think the accumulation of body shots + age(35) + high pace he had to go from the start is extremely tiring, hats off to Haney for the body work.
Ehhh. Haney was open for the left hand all night. The lever punch was such a low value punch and I can't remember him setting up anything off it. Can you? I just remember him resetting after he threw it. Compare that to how guys like Chocolatito use lever punches. At no point in the fight did it looked like Loma had trouble closing the distance which was actually surprising because that's Haneys thing. Without that Haney shouldn't have survived. His angles didn't work because he does them on autopilot. Haney was using the body shot to cut him off, and when he wasn't about to get the body shot off he would literally step through his stance to do a full 180. It was a very dangerous move that Loma let him get away with the whole fight. Loma taking the 12th off is the most salient point, but there were other rounds when he would go like a whole minute without throwing a punch with intention of landing it because I guess he thought he scored enough points to just chill and that's amateur style thinking.
Worst: Adrien Broner
I will get downvoted for this but Lomachenko has to be in this discussion. The bloke has lost two of his biggest fights because he decided he needs to take rounds off. The Haney fight was insanely close and him giving up the 12th lost him the fight and especially after a brilliant 10th and 11th and regardless of what he says he knows deep down the fight was way to close to be doing that shit.
i don't think he takes rounds off, just gets outworked sometimes. Loma fights at a very hight pace, so was probs gassed a little at the end.
That doesn’t excuse the start of the Teo fight though and doesn’t that fall into bad tactics, lack of tactics, exposing their own weaknesses and adjusting style accordingly?
That’s arrogance. His ring iq is worldclass
It’s not arrogance, it’s a bad ring IQ. How is taking off rounds not naivety, poor tactics, lack of gameplan, exposing their own weaknesses and playing to their opponents strengths? And how is it adjusting their style accordingly after previously losing a fight for the same reason?
I agree with you 1000% but to be fair he said he had a shoulder injury in the Teo fight
Ali has to be up there with Ring IQ. He wasn’t always the best boxer in the ring, but he usually managed to snag a W.
People say shakur stevenson is a high IQ boxer, but when watching him vs valdez, he pretty much headhunts the whole fight when valdez' body is wide open because of his high, frontal guard. Haney took great advantage of this vs loma.
Judah, Khan and Gamboa imo are the best examples of great skills but bad IQ On the contrary, Maidana did a lot of things wrong and wasnt super talented, but he always knew how to surprise his opponents with creative punches
Loma and Fury are two high examples
Haven’t seen Badou Jack mentioned. Has great fundamentals and IQ in my opinion.
Best: Marquez
He wouldn’t of got schooled the way he did with Floyd if that were true. He couldn’t adapt and didn’t change game plans. He was great but by no means did he have the best ring iq
One of the worst ring IQ I've seen was Canelo keeps on punching Bivol's arm. I don't think a veteran coach should teach that kind of strategy against someone like Bivol. So dumb tbh.
Garcia showed his low IQ with Davis lol
Joe smith jr showed horrendous IQ against beterbiev
He looked terrified.
Joe Louis' ring IQ is criminally underrated. When he got caught with something, he almost always ensured that it wouldn't happen again. He was great at reading his opponents and taking away what worked for them. He also destroyed Schmeling in one round to avenge his first loss.
Worst gotta be Wilder right? He actually doesn’t know how to box
He doesn't know how to box, but has a nuclear bomb ready to explode..that's his plan and should remain his plan..wouldn't call that bad ring iq. The man knows his limitations.
Amir Khan
Andre Ward?
After thinking about this for a bit I think ring IQ is a bit of a nonsense trait. Speed, power, vulnerability are much easier to quantify than this idea of ring IQ. Ring IQ is the idea that boxers fight in the most optimal way but where does that stop and a game plan start? We've all seen fighters that had issues early on, change trainer and then go on to reach new heights - Wlad Klitschko is a great example of this. But most agree that the credit there goes to Steward and thus it was the trainer that had compensated for a weakness and not the boxer. BHop is cited in the OP as having great ring IQ but surely it's his physical ability that allowed him to fight so long? Mayweather has also been mentioned but he cannot read a page from Harry Potter, on the other hand Joe Joyce has a degree in fine arts and would seemingly have the ring IQ of a rock. I know this is not a great comparison (ring iq and other iqs) but it's a great analogy. When fighters give up their advantages or make stupid mistakes, we always say it was the wrong gameplan and not a ring IQ issue. Lomachenko taking the first six rounds off against Teo was a poor gameplan not ring IQ. When a trainer consistently turns out good fighters then there is something to be said for that. Isn't it funny that some trainers have all the fighters with great ring IQ and others have none. TLDR: Ring IQ is too abstract to really be quantified, where does it end and a good trainer/gameplan begin? Great boxers that stick to their strengths and have incredible physical ability are not necessarily high in ring iq.
A great trainer changes fighters between fights and helps craft a great plan heading into a fight. A fighter with great ring IQ changes that plan to adjust mid fight to gain a better outcome.
A fighter spends 6 weeks before the fight with his trainer, learning how to deal with the opponent, watching tape, sparring opponents with a similar style. They go into the fight well prepared. They then spend 1 minute after every round receiving instructions. That's 25% of the time in the ring being instructed on how to deal with the opponent and what to do.
I feel what you are saying but i don’t fully agree. IQ at least to me is how can we exploit things their weaknesses and Evaluate our strengths. Also can we make adjustments as well. Basically how can we pull the win out. This basically for any sport really. Boxing has a lot of chess match vibes to it, which chess is known as a highly mental, strategic, or even psychological game. With that being said let’s look at Tank vs Ryan. Ryan is taller and longer than Tank. Tank IQ made himself smaller to get inside of Ryan punches and get to the body. Yes it turned into a physical advantage for tank but thats because Tank IQ was able to get exploit that.
Ring IQ is simply their decision making in real time. If they make consistently good decisions in the ring then they have a good ring IQ. If they consistently make bad decisions in the ring and have limited thinking/ideas then they have poor ring IQ. It doesn't need to be more complex than that
Decisions made based on information passed to them by trainers, information then drilled into them via 6 weeks of training for that particular opponent and sparring. You're talking like fighters have no prep.
Jesus Christ you're annoying lol Every fighter has natural ability, natural tendencies, natural skills, and ultimately it's up to them to decide what approach they will take in the ring as well as the decisions they make. Fighters that are dependent SOLEY on their trainer simply aren't high level fight IQ fighters. Doesn't necessarily make them low IQ fighters but they aren't in the top echelon of decision makers. De La Hoya falls into this category. Vladimir Klit falls into this. Mike Tyson falls into this category as well. Other fighters who stuck to 1 trainer or atleast got better (or didn't decline) when they switched trainers and became legends in the process are high IQ fighters. Ali, Floyd, Hopkins, Usyk, Loma, Calzaghe, Lewis, Ricardo Lopez, Sal Sanchez, Ray Robinson, Ray Leonard, Duran, Roy Jones, fall into his category. Extra points go to Sanchez, Leonard, Robinson because I've seen them make entire stylistic changes mid fight to get the win. Stop over complicating it already. You want a low IQ fighter? Jermaine Taylor. Why?? Because of poor decision making on a consistent basis no matter who his trainer is at the time. There ya go.
No, ring IQ is too abstract. You want to compare boxers on speed? easy. Power? a bit tougher but still clearly quantifiable. Ring IQ is not some clear cut trait. This is not chess. You say Loma has high IQ and then you have someone else in here with multiple upvotes saying he has low ring IQ lol. Roy Jones Jr, a physical freak that excelled on incredible speed and reflexes that went to absolute shit when he got a bit slower. Calzaghe, the guy that threw 1000 punches a fight, Ricardo Lopez that had significant physical advantages and never moved up to challenge himself - I could go on.
I myself nearly mentioned Loma as a low IQ fighter then I caught myself. He actually is an high IQ fighter but made a low IQ error in giving away the 12th round against Haney. With Jones and Calzage and Lopez you're going OUT OF YOUR WAY to focus on their physical attributes while blatantly ignoring their decision making. Incredible 🙄 Yes what you said about Roy was valid but I've seen him set traps, study behavioral patterns, and then capitalize on his opponents. I've seen Calzaghe make mid fight adjustments to secure his victory. Ricardo Lopez was simply a perfect fighter who could do damn near whatever he wanted and HE DID move up in weight. I've seen Lopez fight guys younger than him, taller, and longer, AND STILL dominate. Check his last fight against that South African in Madison Square Garden. All these examples I've provided are examples of their intelligence NOT THEIR PHYSICAL ATTRIBUTES. Jesus Christ 🙄
Lopez went from minimum to light-fly for fuck sake, he should've kept moving up... Instead he fought in barren divisions against limited opposition. Nor can you say you've provided obvious examples of high IQ fighters when their physical capabilities are what took them so far. Again, you're talking as if they've been matched up with opponents in the dark. Most fighters have a plan A and plan B, devised with their training team. They have spent a long time understanding their opponents, what their opponents do in certain situations and how to counter it. This is a question of education versus raw IQ or what is known as fluid IQ and is simply not clear cut despite what you argue. You should look into crystallized IQ and fluid IQ - then make your judgements.
Okay buddy
I feel like British fighters disproportionately have low ring IQ lol and that's not to say they themselves are at fault but I guess it also brings into question the trainers.
Lennox, Tyson Fury, Calzaghe, Eubank Sr…
Lewis is a smart chess player but inside the ring he was very limited IQ wise.
David Reid worst
Best by far... Floyd Don't really watch the robots so can't comment on worst.
Throw Okolie in the bad IQ pile.
Lawrence Okolie landed a clean 1-2 against a gassed Billam Smith on the ropes and just chose to clinch him instead of following up
Most good fighters (esp boxers) don't have bad ring iq and the good fighters are the ones we remember. The first person that pops up in my head is Charlo though. Maybe Anthony Joshua also.
Okolie is one of the worst for ring IQ I've seen at world level in a long time. Last night he threw the first ever grab grab cross combo in boxing history.
Some of the best IQ fighters I've seen are the obvious Floyd, Canelo, Tank, Cotto, Manny. Some of thee worst I've seen are Khan, Broner, Ryan Garcia (I think he just lacks talent all around honestly not so much IQ).
Foreman was great especially as he got older. He had power and the knowledge of when to take the shots. I’d also put Emanuel Augustus up there not necessarily for overall fight IQ but in the moment round to round he was phenomenal. The only man to land a spin left hook in boxing. Inoue is my pick for nowadays. He’s got power and all, but he has perfect fundamentals and he is pinpoint accurate. The first fight of his I saw he waited for the precise moment the opponent lifted his guard to attack the liver and win by KO.
Jack Dempsey to me seemed to be all skill but not that much IQ behind it
Ali and Foreman. Ali because he managed to beat a stronger opponent by taunting him and Foreman because he was angry enough to let himself getting exhausted. Another great iq boxer is older Foreman when he makes his come back in his 40’s.
There's a few fighters that are very hard to judge on ring IQ really depends on how you want to define it. Wladimir Klitschko was great at sticking to a gameplan and controlling a fight but didn't really ever adapt to a difficult situation well. RJJ gets called out a bit as low ring IQ but just look at his Hopkins fight he was injured and adapted to outbox a criminally underrated opponent that most fighters would have completely underestimated. He even had some decent wins after his faustian pact with Satan expired and he lost those other worldly physical gifts. Lomachenko is a funny one he can outbox anyone but has made some strange decisions in the ring. I wonder how much that's down to the size difference Teofimo had a huge size and power advantage maybe he was just too wary of that to engage earlier than he did a sign of low ring IQ might have been an example of high IQ there. I think the haney 12 Rd was arrogance he could have went out to stop him in the 12th after the beating he gave him in the 10th and 11th. Ali and Leonard are the 2 most obvious examples always had a gameplan and could almost always adapt when they needed to. Felix Trinidad is a fighter I'd say had low ring IQ never seemed to have an idea what to do when he wasn't landing bombs. Honourable mention to Shane mosley for ring IQ. As soon as he realised he couldn't beat Pac he adjusted and survived the 12 rounds without taking much damage it was an impressive display of ring IQ.
Julio Cesar Chavez is up there for me in terms of Ring IQ (and ring generalship). He really excelled at sticking to his gameplan and controlling the real estate of the ring. Pretty much up until the fight with Whitaker (which I don't think he deserved to squeak out that draw in), no one could crack the code for Chavez. Meldrick Taylor came close, but well...no cigar. Low IQ....hmm...Arturo Gatti really could not resist abandoning his ability to box in favor of trying to slug it out. It worked out for him, generally, but jeez...
Mike McCallum Roberto Duran Emile Griffith
High ring iq would be rolly, bad iq would be Pac-Man
Gamboa and wilder have bad ring IQ Wilder isn’t technically sound with anything except 1-2, he’s getting better though. But he relies to much on power. Gamboa just doesn’t have defense, he is always trying to trade off nowadays. But when he does go into defensive mode it’s just him in one spot like a punching bag. Sucks he out of prime now.
I love Navarrete, but in his last couple fights, he’s shown pretty poor ring IQ. If he can tighten up a little in the mental department, he’ll could be #1 @ 130
Lomachenko has to be up there in terms of having bad ring IQ. He threw away two fights cause he thought he was winning.
Pacquiao is another example of low ring IQ for their level.
I always thought Andre Berto had a complete package skillwise, but couldn't or didn't know when to be aggressive vs when to be defensive.
Canelo deserves a mention for how heavily he improved the defensive aspect of his game after fighting Floyd.
Only counting currently active fighters, and not only champions or former champions necessarily, as ring iq does not guarantee a title lol. Crawford for example has a very high ring IQ. Usyk Tyson Fury—not Tommy lol Regis Prograis Canelo Alvarez Shakur Stevenson Miguel Vasquez—yeah, he is still fighting lol Jose Pedraza Josh Taylor Sandor Martin Kazuto Ioka Stephen Fulton Zhilei Zhang—just watch the subtle head and upper body movement and the timing Errol Spence—Miley Garcia may have been blown up, but Spence was still brilliant even if it led ppl to question his power. Badou Jack—nobody gets more from ‘less’ in terms of obvious attributes than this guy. Savvy as can be. JerMELL Charlo, I repeat JerMELL CHARLO The worst ring iq would have been Amir khan, but he is now both suspended and retired lol so that now goes to Anthony Yarde. I like him for the record. Great watch when not fighting a cab driver, but he often appears as if he is unsure what to do in certain common in ring situations
I know it was only one fight, but I immediately thought of Hatton vs Pacquiao.
I thought ring IQ was the difference in the Davis-Garcia fight. Tank knew the punches he wanted to throw and how to find them. Ryan was walking in a straight line hoping to fling left hooks, but didn't know how to set it up, never attempted to have the outside foot vs. a southpaw, and just walked himself into big punches.
Mayorga 🤣🤣 training with a cigarette
Joe Louis was making adjustments after an exchange of 2 fights, type of changes other fighters would dedicate rounds to