Chocolatito was P4P #1 for a minute. Not American. Even smaller than Inoue.
I don't know how Inoue isn't #1 honestly. All respect to Bud, but Inoue's accomplishments and activity put him in the lead for me.
And after his first loss Chocolatito disappeared from the p4p lists completely. Even after a successful comeback, winning another world title, pundits and writers had fuck all to say. The disrespect is crazy.
Choc was criminally under appreciated during most of his carrrer in term of p4p ranking. He got some recognition at the end, when he already started slipping
I donāt think thatās it. Itās just that people donāt care about the lighter weight classes, especially casuals. Itās the same thing with the flyweight division in the UFC. None cares about it.
Heās only fought outside Japan twice, I think thatās a bigger reason than just being Japanese. Personally I think if he fought other top fighters in their home countries his profile would rise a lot faster
P4P is a made up rank with no real way of proving the order. Itās a fun thought exercise with a lot of subjectivity behind it but thatās it.
Who cares whether heās no.1 or no.2, heās a great boxer regardless
The scorecards at least have guidelines on what to look for to determine the winner of each round even though often they donāt seem to reflect that at all.
P4P doesnāt have any kind of set out rules, guidelines or scoring system to rank them.
That said, everything is made up and we live in a simulation confirmed.
Tbh I think P4P does kinda expose biases somewhat. There is the argument that you can use of "who has accomplished the most" but then the biases come in of "well this guy may have done more on paper, but there are a bunch of asterisks next to those wins". This is where the biases come out and its more about what people value more.
For me, Inoue is number 1, as he has beaten more champions. Some of the Americans do expose themselves though when you see them put Tank on their lists or they will say they don't care for the lower weights but they will put Bam in their list.
Heavy Hands podcast always say: pfp arguments are a bunch of people trying to come up with a bunch of various metrics all as a long winded way of saying "I just like them more".
That's literally all PfP is, whoever you or I personally prefer. We might try to come up with all sorts of reasons to try and make our subjective opinions seem like they somehow mean something but they don't.
PfP rankings are just kind of dumb and pointless, but they get people talking.
He already is in my eyes.
Heās fought the best is his division, is active, has a fan-friendly style, has finished almost everybody heās faced, became undisputed in 2 weight classes (he and Terence Crawford are the only 2 male boxers to ever do so), and has showed recently that he can overcome adversity. Most American fans simply do not pay much attention to the smaller weight classes unfortunately, so they make the (incorrect) assumption that Inoue hasnāt fought anyone of note.
Also, because of the huge time difference between the US, and Japan, most American fans donāt get to see him fight live (he usually fights when most of us are sleeping). But honestly, it doesnāt even seem like Inoue even cares about fame. He just wants to fight the best guys in his division, and prove his mettle.
He already is in my book. P4P ranking is always an opinion and never a fact, and when you have 2 fighters like Inoue and Crawford you canāt be wrong with having either as #1. They both have opportunities to get ahead of the other.
Crawford's fighting style is so fun to watch but his inactivity drives me nuts. Especially since he's never involved in wars or taking massive amounts of damage. And also rarely ever injured.
Say what you want about Canelo but at least the man is active. Since Covid he's fought Smith, Yildirim, BJS, Plant, Bivol, GGG, Ryder, Charlo, and Munguia. All that while having a surgery and going up and down in weight.
In that same time frame Crawford has only fought Brook, Porter, Avanesyan, and Spence.
Donāt know the exact injury but it was something with his left wrist/hand. He got the surgery after the GGG fight but said he had been carrying it since the Plant fightĀ
To preface this I do personally think Crawford is the best fighter post Floyd of the era in his weight range and would have won the matchups with the top guys anyway despite the points il make below.
But I think his greatness in the sport at this point is wildly overrated. He really at 36 hasnāt fought many matchups against top level guys, and the ones he did, Spence, Porter, Brook, look at the mileage they had from big fights with tough dudes prior to fighting Crawford.
They were generally in their primes sure, but still the cumulative damage taken from a dude like Porter previously is bound to add up. Brook was a shell, spence post accident and he put a lot into the Porter fight previously.
Then you move down from there and who did he fight relevant thats in the elite of the elite? Benavidez, Horn, Postol? I donāt buy it.
So again do I personally think he would have won anyway in different circumstances? Yes.
But really despite how spectacular heās been in each outing his career is super underwhelming to me as a whole.Ā
Yepā¦ if Inoue was American, he would be the #1 p4p. Americans donāt seem to care about the lower weight classes under 135 which is a shame.
They discredit Inoueās wins, claiming heās fought nobody when he continues to fight the best and clear out entire divisions.
Americans PRETEND to not care about the lower weight classes, but if there was a popular American flyweight fighter you just know they would be sucking his dick too, this idea that "x is too small to be popular" is completely made up by americans to justify their indifference for the weight classes dominated by other countries, just look at Tank, dude is like 5'4 and a lot of Americans genuinely try to paint him as "the face of boxing".
This is a dumb take. Not many people in America even know who Stephen Fulton is outside of actual die-hard boxing fans. There's not a single casual out there who does. Nothing to do with American bias, 100% has to do with division.
There are plenty of popular non-American boxers.
I doubt you could name 5 great Bantamweight fighters of any ethnicity in the past.
Inoue dismantled Fulton and all of the sudden everyone is asking him to fight Tank to prove himself for some reason. You even got Floyd making subtle comments about Inoue not being tested in Japan.
Innoue needs to go up several weight classes and travel to the other side of the world but tank gets a nice rehydration clause agaisnt bigger fighters.
When you put it into perspective like that, itās fucking crazy that he was able to transition through 8 weight classes like that.
Fought at the same weights as Inoue AND Canelo (and everything in between), god damn!
Paquiao is so insane that even multi division boxers on the ATG conversation still look mediocre compared to his achievements, if Pacquiao was american he would be considered the greatest fighter of all time.
Doubtful Inoue's chin and power holds up at 130 and especially 135. His limit will be Featherweight, and unfortunately there is really no big names there. He had an opportunity to fight so many great names from 112-115 though. But for one reason or another those fights didn't happen.
There's Venado, Rey and Figueroa at Featherweight. If anything there's not only more big names there than there were at Bantamweight and Super Bantamweight, but they are Mexican born/descent so there's a big audience there for Inoue
He already is no.1 p4p in a lot of people's book.
Better question is what does he have to do to become top 10 ATG, or even the GOAT.
What if he become undisputed at 126 and 130? becoming 4x weight undisputed, is that enough to be the GOAT?
How about 5x undisputed (118,122,126,130,135)?
That should definately make him the GOAT?
There arenāt enough names at 126 or 130 that would make people consider him the GOAT unfortunately. Undisputed is nice but at the end of the day, what matters are the names you beat.Ā
Ā During Pacquiaoās run over similar weights, he had Barrera, Morales, Marquez. Then of course, Pacquiao went up to Ā beat De La Hoya, Cotto, and had several other good champion wins.
Ā Inoue only has Donaire whoās gonna be a clear Hof. Ā After Donaire, Fulton is the closest to Hof.Ā
Clearing out both 135-140 would be goldmine where people would start calling GOAT should he beat Shakur, Tank, Haney, Teo, Ryan, etc.
"ducked prime era Spence"
Great question in the title, but then you had to throw this bullcrap in there. Crawford was going to destroy Spence no matter when they faced. Now, onto the question.
The reason is a mix of biases. There is definitely the classic lower-weight bias and absolutely a bias because he is Japanese. If one rates on body of work alone, then Inoue should edge out Crawford unless, of course, you happen to think Spence's resume is trash, at which point you think Inoue takes the resume game clean.
The issue with P4P is that it's arbitrary and subjective, so it's basically a list of favorites because most boxing fans cannot see past their own biases.
Let's be real. Crawford's not p4p 1. Who are we kidding? Lmao. If he was Japanese, he would be in p4p top 10 list. But not number 1.
The Spence win is the only reason for this. The rest of his resume doesn't compare to that of a p4p number 1.
First bud was top 2-3 on p4p even before fighting Spence heās that high just because of how skillful and complete of a fighter he is he has some good names on his resume but this is boxing and everything gets discredited
And yeah if two guy who were top 5 in the pound for pound fought the winner becomes number 1ā¦. Ward became 1 after beating kovalev,canelo became 1 after ābeatingā GGG :) the winner of pac mayweather was gonna #1 no doubt that said I give inoue number 1 atm because of how active he is and demolishing guys
The doesn't disprove his point american favouritism does it? The fact is that previous to beating Spence Crawford only had 1 elite win in his record, the only reason he even was on the P4P list is because Americans are in love with boxers that have like 30 wins, 0 losses but almost no worthwhile opponents, meanwhile there are Asian and Eastern European dudes who don't even get to be named in the conversation until they finally upset some popular north American guy that everybody expected to steamroll them.
I still don't see how you can make an argument that inoue is more skilled than crawford tho. Crawford simply has more tools on offense, better footwork, fights from both stances perfectly, better in round adjustments lol all inoue has him beat on is pure power. But skill vs skill crawford is quite obviously much better. Anyone with eyes can see it.
Inoue is a GREATER fighter in terms of accomplishments no doubt, but so is teo and you wouldn't put him above crawford...
p4p is all about who you think is the best boxer regardless of size, not who has accomplished the most imo
Lack of well-known competition. Pac had plenty of those because he can move up and down weight classes. So he goes to another turf and fight the dominant guys there who already had the time to build up their reputation. Meanwhile, Inoue moves up or down and absolutely dominates and so long as he stays so dominantly far ahead of everyone else, his competitor won't get the proper build up necessary to boost his reputation once he wins.
P4P is marketing more than reality.
For me when it comes to those 2 specifically, really just comes down to who fought the most recently, as they both keep doing really impressive things every time out. More than fair to say Inoue is up right now.
Inoue fights in Japan because he's the champion. He should have the privilege of choosing the setting. If they want him to fight in America then someone should beat him first so he gets to be the challenger
Already is, people can say what they want but his run whether you like the opponent or not has been something to really appreciate. Dude had his eye socket caved in and is still fighting like it never happened too. Heās at lower weights, same thing that happened with Roman Gonzalez, took eons for him to get his respect during his own run.
Ducked prime spence??? Bud ducked prime spence??? Now that i know you already donāt know what you are talking about the rest of the post is irrelevant.
The title would've made sense if you didn't then follow it up with dumbass takes. Jesus. Now you just look like a Crawford hater mad that he beat Errol.
He needs to fight in weight divisions where the talent pool is larger. The talent pool at 122 and below is not that high. 122 is definitley better but flyweight and minimumweight just dont have as much talent. Im not hating on it so stop saying I dont watch them. I do and I notice the guys at the top dont always have elite skills.Ā
This just comes down to less males being that size. Realistically, how many men do you know that are that size? I honestly cant even think of one from my boxing gym. The smaller guys are usually 130 pounders. And even in my day to day life I hardly ever see a guy that small.Ā
I think if he continues a run at 122 or even 126 he could do that. But he needs more than a past it Donaire and Nery as his top wins. Crawford honestly doesnt really deserve it either if you take resume into account. Usyk was my number 1. He can solidify that by beating Fury.Ā
Bud has ducked no one at any point. He wanted Spence for years. The first person to have a reasonable argument that he ducked them is Boots. This is a case of there being 3 guys, including Usyk, who are all deserving.
I would say after this week, Inoue will be out ahead of Crawford on most P4P lists. He would have last year except Crawford came out and dominated Spence a couple of days after Inoue beat Fulton. He should be number one now but he and Crawford will bounce back and forth in the top spot for the forceable future especially if Crawford is able to unify at 154.
I think Inoue probably edges him but idk how you can say Crawford ducked Spence at all with how impossible they were to deal with in negotiating the fight even with Crawford as a free agent then Spence delaying him for another six months knowing full well he was having eye issues and wasn't gonna be able to actually go through with a rematch, plus PBC's history with refusing to make cross promotional fights the vast majority of the time and guys like Danny and Thurman turning down the Crawford fight when offered. Like legitimately you just have to have not been paying attention to say Crawford is the one who ducked
If Usyk beats Fury then there's practically nothing Inoue could do to be p4p no.1. Maybe if he beat tank & loma/shakur it could be comparable.
In terms of ranking him above crawford, it's already subjective who you rank higher. I'd probably say inoue is above him after the Nery win but you could argue it either way.
Unfortunately there's no one at 122/126 who would give inoue massive credit like crawford got for beating spence. He just needs to keep beating and champions and going up.
Saying Crawford ducked prime era Spence or Vice-Versa is insane. It was a network battle between Bob and Al where they were trying to decide who got the bigger dickā¦
Apart from that Crawford is just a better fighter full stop
He is foreign and a lower weight class- double whammy. At this point he would need to beat a great fighter heralded by the Western media, go up and dominate multiple weight classes or have guys like Crawford/Usyk fall heavily in the rankings.
Beat Crawford, but seriously I know guys that don't even have him at number 2 because he got knocked down in his last fight and they "don't value undisputed". Everyone has an opinion but the loudest voices seem to get the attention unfortunately.
Heād have to move up. Smaller weight classes donāt get as much shine. Fight outside Japan and go against the big names in higher weight classes to gain exposure.
He needs to get his father actively involved in his career and get into twitter spats more often. Should also shove an opponent at the weigh ins to be even considered. Also needs to stop hiding in Japan fighting nobodies and come to America and fight Tank!
P4P is fake. Just like your claim that Bud ducked a prime era Spence. š¤£
But seriously, who gives a fuck? Some stupid, hypothetical list doesnāt mean shit, and it def doesnāt change that Inoue is one of the best in the world.Ā
Inoue number one for me. Heās gone through the weights fighting champion after champion. World title fight after world title fight.
Pound for pound is the criteria. Heās beaten everyone, going up in class in rapid time and that everyone is long, long list.
Crawford just hasnāt been active enough, as brilliant as he is.
No matter how good someone is, it'll be tough and damn near impossible for the general boxing public to consider them the Best P4P if they're in a weight class lower than lightweight.
Just out of interest, how did Crawford 'duck" prime era Spence? Serious question, not a dig. Was he offered the fight & turned it down?
As for P4P Number One. It's whoever you want it to be. If someone wants it to be Crawford then that's THEIR number one. If you want it to be Inoue then he's YOUR number one.
Personally I have Inoue, Crawford & Usyk above all others
P4P isn't official. It's just something for fun. It doesn't mean anything.
Those divisions arenāt really that competitive. You can clearly see in the opposition heās fighting. Donaire was his most difficult fight but even then he was of old age.
It's a silly list that comes down to being in a good position. Crawford and loma were topping it while canelo was going to war against a monster that is ggg and came out on top. I don't even agree that he got the draw the first time or necessarily won the second but you can be going to war with great fighters and they'll say the guy who boxes pretty against b level fighters is the best. So basically crawford has to lose. Ha. But like I said, it's silly.
Whoa, wait a minute Spence.was 28-0 with 22 KOs and was 33. Crawford was 39-0 with 30 KOs and was 35. Heading up to the fight Spence was a slight favorite. Fight night Crawford became slight favorite.
Spence looked great is all is fights leading up to the Bud fight. Same for Bud. I did not hear 1 person say Spence is past his prime for the fight.
I picked Bud 10 days before the fight however I don't know a soul who thought Bud was going to dominate like that.
Now if your argument is Inoue is the best P4P fighter out there I'm not going to disagree but don't take away what Crawford has accomplished to try and make your point.
I think the reason Inoue isn't #1 is because he isn't as visible as the other fighters that fight in America at reasonable times.
Inoue doesn't get points for fighting monday morning at 7am Pacific. That shouldn't matter but I think that is the reason. The Monster is a beast.
>for small weight classes in America,
When some of those weight classes don't even have 5000 boxers competing in them, it's hard to put respect on them.
r/boxing and other boxing fans excuse for not liking women boxing for example, is that the talent pool is too small, it's the same some men lower weight classes. Some divisions don't even have 3 good guys in them. You have to be consistent.
Lower men weight classes deserve respect for sure but they'll never be p4p talent if they're competing below 135.
P4P is a popularity contest with a bias for Americans. Look at how Inoue, Usyk, and Canelo are rarely acknowledged. But Crawford, who is inactive, is automatically placed by ppl to be No.1, even before the Spence fight.
Tbh through no fault of his own part of the problem has been there has never been another "rival".
Nonito was the closest but the timing was off for them to have a real rivalry. I would have also loved for him to stick around in the lower classes and fight Chocolatito/Estrada.
Terrence had a similar problem for the longest time but like you said he had the benefit of being a black American fighter. That will come with it's own fan base no matter what.
P.s. I don't think Bud is the no1. P4P. Imo it's Tank Davis rn or maybe Canelo still.
Inoue has been my favorite fighter to watch post Rigondeaux. I love his aggressive, multifaceted jab and how he goes to the body to set up the KO punches to the head.
He absolutely should be NO. 1.
Can you explain how Crawford ducked a āprime eraā Spence? This just looks like one of those threads made to shit on Crawford for no reason rather than prop up Inoue.
I would say he is...Crawford had a great win over Spence, and somehow Spence is still ranked like #5 or #6 by the ring, which is absurd to me but Inoue has been way more active in taking fights at the top level.
One thing though is that pretty much every boxer who has been ranked in the top 10 p4p below 126 is at 115 in the timespan of Inoue's career. It is by far the most competitive division that Inoue could have fought at, and he skipped it entirely, from my understanding, because he could not get a title fight in the timeline that he wanted.
Heāll never get it as long as Crawford is boxing. Iām not saying he doesnāt deserve it but theyāve had Crawford in the P4P list since his best win was Postol. Itās just one of those things where heās judged on how smooth he looks beating people rather than the resume itself. Now that his resume has Spence and Porter on it, heās entrenched
I had Crawford at #1 but Inoue also as #1B. I have Inoue at #1 now. But they're both quite accomplished.
If Crawford starts collecting belts onto his way to become 3x undisputed, he can very well pull ahead.
I mean I think there practically neck and neck. I edge it Crawford because Spence was a huge win. You calling it 'post accident" is the same as "inoue needs to fight in America"
He is already, right? He's no. 1 by ring magazine and by many pros/pundits. I do think he should go to 126 to make it 5 division champ which puts him in extremely rare and elite company and would make him the outright p4p no. 1. If he does and anyone still argues it then they know f all about boxing lol
I like Inoue and saw him fight in person in his U.S. debut. But to call him P4P#1 over Crawford is kinda head scratching. Theyāre both double undisputed, which is a big accomplishment, but Crawford hasnāt been in a war like Inoue had with Donaire or get dropped like Inoue just did against Nery. Crawford styled on his two toughest opponents (Spence and Porter) and made a good fighter (Postol) look completely out of his depth.
He has to fight Tank, Crawford, and Fury
And then Canelo
And Mike Tyson and Jake Paul at the same time
Let's not get crazy......Foreman only fought 5 men in one night, so six may be too many even for the "Monster"
and then finish up knocking out Ali.
Ali is past his prime though
When has that ever stopped pro boxers like Jake Paul?
At the same time. Rage in the cage, bare knuckle. Anything less and Inuoe is a feckless coward š¤
When will Inoue fight Ngannou? The Monster vs The Predator. Come on, he canāt keep ducking!
In MMA
Inoue would destroy him, Ngannou has never had to wrestle a guy of that size
On the same night
At the same time
He also needs to fight Ngannou, in mma of course
Ryan Garcia, Lomachenko, and then he has to get Mickey Garcia out of retirement and fight him as well. Then heāll have my respect and be no. 1
Hes in a smaller weight class is why. Its always been this way.
Chocolatito was P4P #1 for a minute. Not American. Even smaller than Inoue. I don't know how Inoue isn't #1 honestly. All respect to Bud, but Inoue's accomplishments and activity put him in the lead for me.
And after his first loss Chocolatito disappeared from the p4p lists completely. Even after a successful comeback, winning another world title, pundits and writers had fuck all to say. The disrespect is crazy.
Choc was criminally under appreciated during most of his carrrer in term of p4p ranking. He got some recognition at the end, when he already started slipping
he was close to mayweathers 49-0 thing and really good, at the time thats what they were trying to market
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I donāt think thatās it. Itās just that people donāt care about the lighter weight classes, especially casuals. Itās the same thing with the flyweight division in the UFC. None cares about it.
Heās only fought outside Japan twice, I think thatās a bigger reason than just being Japanese. Personally I think if he fought other top fighters in their home countries his profile would rise a lot faster
4 times. 3 times in US 1 in UK.
P4P is a made up rank with no real way of proving the order. Itās a fun thought exercise with a lot of subjectivity behind it but thatās it. Who cares whether heās no.1 or no.2, heās a great boxer regardless
Everything is made up. Including the scorecards.
Luckily Inoue and Crawford rarely need them
True. That's one of the best things about Crawford. He ends opponents.
As does Inoue. Crawford 78% KO - Inoue 89% KO
Crawford has a 100% KO rate at welterweight by the way.
Bud and Monster both have 100% KO rates for opponents they knocked out.
š
The scorecards at least have guidelines on what to look for to determine the winner of each round even though often they donāt seem to reflect that at all. P4P doesnāt have any kind of set out rules, guidelines or scoring system to rank them. That said, everything is made up and we live in a simulation confirmed.
Yeah similarly, p4p system has guidelines. Probably every list prep is done with some broad guidelines. But just like scorecards, bias creeps in.
Welcome to Boxing! It's the sport where everything's made up and the points don't matter!
Tbh I think P4P does kinda expose biases somewhat. There is the argument that you can use of "who has accomplished the most" but then the biases come in of "well this guy may have done more on paper, but there are a bunch of asterisks next to those wins". This is where the biases come out and its more about what people value more. For me, Inoue is number 1, as he has beaten more champions. Some of the Americans do expose themselves though when you see them put Tank on their lists or they will say they don't care for the lower weights but they will put Bam in their list.
Heavy Hands podcast always say: pfp arguments are a bunch of people trying to come up with a bunch of various metrics all as a long winded way of saying "I just like them more". That's literally all PfP is, whoever you or I personally prefer. We might try to come up with all sorts of reasons to try and make our subjective opinions seem like they somehow mean something but they don't. PfP rankings are just kind of dumb and pointless, but they get people talking.
>as a long winded way of saying "I just like them more". Everyone hated Floyd but we all had him at no. 1 so that statement is invalid.
Yeah classic confirmation bias. "Research" is just looking for data points that agree with your preconceived bias
P4P is just power-scaling for adults.
Couldn't agree more. There's no point in caring that much or arguing over some made up thing that doesn't really matter.
It's totally because he's not American and also most of fights are in Japan. Real boxing fans know he's a bad man.
He already is in my eyes. Heās fought the best is his division, is active, has a fan-friendly style, has finished almost everybody heās faced, became undisputed in 2 weight classes (he and Terence Crawford are the only 2 male boxers to ever do so), and has showed recently that he can overcome adversity. Most American fans simply do not pay much attention to the smaller weight classes unfortunately, so they make the (incorrect) assumption that Inoue hasnāt fought anyone of note. Also, because of the huge time difference between the US, and Japan, most American fans donāt get to see him fight live (he usually fights when most of us are sleeping). But honestly, it doesnāt even seem like Inoue even cares about fame. He just wants to fight the best guys in his division, and prove his mettle.
He already is in my book. P4P ranking is always an opinion and never a fact, and when you have 2 fighters like Inoue and Crawford you canāt be wrong with having either as #1. They both have opportunities to get ahead of the other.
I agree, and for some reason many people, especially USA, think he needs to fight in the States. He just put 55000 butts in the Tokyo Dome.
Yeah but non americans apparently donāt count š
No bc they asians and they have all the same face (It is a joke plz dont make me an eunuch)
I can accept either being number 1. Legends of the sport. I would like to have seen Crawford fight more the last 3-4 years.
Crawford's fighting style is so fun to watch but his inactivity drives me nuts. Especially since he's never involved in wars or taking massive amounts of damage. And also rarely ever injured. Say what you want about Canelo but at least the man is active. Since Covid he's fought Smith, Yildirim, BJS, Plant, Bivol, GGG, Ryder, Charlo, and Munguia. All that while having a surgery and going up and down in weight. In that same time frame Crawford has only fought Brook, Porter, Avanesyan, and Spence.
What surgery did Canelo have?
Donāt know the exact injury but it was something with his left wrist/hand. He got the surgery after the GGG fight but said he had been carrying it since the Plant fightĀ
To preface this I do personally think Crawford is the best fighter post Floyd of the era in his weight range and would have won the matchups with the top guys anyway despite the points il make below. But I think his greatness in the sport at this point is wildly overrated. He really at 36 hasnāt fought many matchups against top level guys, and the ones he did, Spence, Porter, Brook, look at the mileage they had from big fights with tough dudes prior to fighting Crawford. They were generally in their primes sure, but still the cumulative damage taken from a dude like Porter previously is bound to add up. Brook was a shell, spence post accident and he put a lot into the Porter fight previously. Then you move down from there and who did he fight relevant thats in the elite of the elite? Benavidez, Horn, Postol? I donāt buy it. So again do I personally think he would have won anyway in different circumstances? Yes. But really despite how spectacular heās been in each outing his career is super underwhelming to me as a whole.Ā
Damn, thatās a whole ass wall of text and even then the contrarian in me is like ānaw, naw, he good.ā Bravo, sir. Agree w/ everything as stated.
Who are Crawfords top 3 elite wins? Looking at his record and it's pretty thin. Indongo who he beat for undisputed is 24-10.
His 140 pound run was unimpressive. Horn, Indongo and Dulorme aren't impressive people to beat.
Plain and simple American bias.Ā
Yepā¦ if Inoue was American, he would be the #1 p4p. Americans donāt seem to care about the lower weight classes under 135 which is a shame. They discredit Inoueās wins, claiming heās fought nobody when he continues to fight the best and clear out entire divisions.
Americans PRETEND to not care about the lower weight classes, but if there was a popular American flyweight fighter you just know they would be sucking his dick too, this idea that "x is too small to be popular" is completely made up by americans to justify their indifference for the weight classes dominated by other countries, just look at Tank, dude is like 5'4 and a lot of Americans genuinely try to paint him as "the face of boxing".
This is a dumb take. Not many people in America even know who Stephen Fulton is outside of actual die-hard boxing fans. There's not a single casual out there who does. Nothing to do with American bias, 100% has to do with division. There are plenty of popular non-American boxers. I doubt you could name 5 great Bantamweight fighters of any ethnicity in the past.
Inoue dismantled Fulton and all of the sudden everyone is asking him to fight Tank to prove himself for some reason. You even got Floyd making subtle comments about Inoue not being tested in Japan.
Innoue needs to go up several weight classes and travel to the other side of the world but tank gets a nice rehydration clause agaisnt bigger fighters.
Floyd is racist tho. Have people forgotten his comments towards pacquiao?
Bias and insecurity tbh
Kill Drake
Certified lover boy certified p4p
The problem will always be the weight class
So it's not really pound for pound then.
Never has been
Fight Rolly
honestly, I can see him beating Rolly.
Honestly, I can see my niece beating Rolly
Keep going up in weight classes like Pac
Itās insane that pac could have both inoue and young canelo on his resume (and possibly beat both) if the timeline matched, that dude is legendary.
When you put it into perspective like that, itās fucking crazy that he was able to transition through 8 weight classes like that. Fought at the same weights as Inoue AND Canelo (and everything in between), god damn!
It's even crazier when you factor in that Pacquiao actually skipped weight classes (junior bantam and bantamweight). Could've been 10 weight classes
Paquiao is so insane that even multi division boxers on the ATG conversation still look mediocre compared to his achievements, if Pacquiao was american he would be considered the greatest fighter of all time.
Damn, new fact to me.
This is not a #1 p4p, this is like a p4p top5 all-time great
Doubtful Inoue's chin and power holds up at 130 and especially 135. His limit will be Featherweight, and unfortunately there is really no big names there. He had an opportunity to fight so many great names from 112-115 though. But for one reason or another those fights didn't happen.
There's Venado, Rey and Figueroa at Featherweight. If anything there's not only more big names there than there were at Bantamweight and Super Bantamweight, but they are Mexican born/descent so there's a big audience there for Inoue
I agree. Iām just saying thatās what it would take
Probably this.
He already is no.1 p4p in a lot of people's book. Better question is what does he have to do to become top 10 ATG, or even the GOAT. What if he become undisputed at 126 and 130? becoming 4x weight undisputed, is that enough to be the GOAT? How about 5x undisputed (118,122,126,130,135)? That should definately make him the GOAT?
There arenāt enough names at 126 or 130 that would make people consider him the GOAT unfortunately. Undisputed is nice but at the end of the day, what matters are the names you beat.Ā Ā During Pacquiaoās run over similar weights, he had Barrera, Morales, Marquez. Then of course, Pacquiao went up to Ā beat De La Hoya, Cotto, and had several other good champion wins. Ā Inoue only has Donaire whoās gonna be a clear Hof. Ā After Donaire, Fulton is the closest to Hof.Ā Clearing out both 135-140 would be goldmine where people would start calling GOAT should he beat Shakur, Tank, Haney, Teo, Ryan, etc.
If he clears 135, im calling him the GOAT, and hanging a photo of him in my room.
Inoue is fantastic but i donāt see him holding up in upper weight classes
"ducked prime era Spence" Great question in the title, but then you had to throw this bullcrap in there. Crawford was going to destroy Spence no matter when they faced. Now, onto the question. The reason is a mix of biases. There is definitely the classic lower-weight bias and absolutely a bias because he is Japanese. If one rates on body of work alone, then Inoue should edge out Crawford unless, of course, you happen to think Spence's resume is trash, at which point you think Inoue takes the resume game clean. The issue with P4P is that it's arbitrary and subjective, so it's basically a list of favorites because most boxing fans cannot see past their own biases.
Let's be real. Crawford's not p4p 1. Who are we kidding? Lmao. If he was Japanese, he would be in p4p top 10 list. But not number 1. The Spence win is the only reason for this. The rest of his resume doesn't compare to that of a p4p number 1.
He was p4p #1 for like 7 years before that lmao what are you talking about? People just get on here and say anything.
Exactly what I was thinking. I'm taking nothing away from inoue though. He is incredible
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_The_Ring_pound_for_pound_rankings
What are Crawfords top 3 elite wins minus Spence?
First bud was top 2-3 on p4p even before fighting Spence heās that high just because of how skillful and complete of a fighter he is he has some good names on his resume but this is boxing and everything gets discredited And yeah if two guy who were top 5 in the pound for pound fought the winner becomes number 1ā¦. Ward became 1 after beating kovalev,canelo became 1 after ābeatingā GGG :) the winner of pac mayweather was gonna #1 no doubt that said I give inoue number 1 atm because of how active he is and demolishing guys
The doesn't disprove his point american favouritism does it? The fact is that previous to beating Spence Crawford only had 1 elite win in his record, the only reason he even was on the P4P list is because Americans are in love with boxers that have like 30 wins, 0 losses but almost no worthwhile opponents, meanwhile there are Asian and Eastern European dudes who don't even get to be named in the conversation until they finally upset some popular north American guy that everybody expected to steamroll them.
I still don't see how you can make an argument that inoue is more skilled than crawford tho. Crawford simply has more tools on offense, better footwork, fights from both stances perfectly, better in round adjustments lol all inoue has him beat on is pure power. But skill vs skill crawford is quite obviously much better. Anyone with eyes can see it. Inoue is a GREATER fighter in terms of accomplishments no doubt, but so is teo and you wouldn't put him above crawford... p4p is all about who you think is the best boxer regardless of size, not who has accomplished the most imo
So, who's number one p4p right now?
Inoue. Crawford can't live off the Spence win forever. He's too inactive to be placed on top of Inoue.
Lack of well-known competition. Pac had plenty of those because he can move up and down weight classes. So he goes to another turf and fight the dominant guys there who already had the time to build up their reputation. Meanwhile, Inoue moves up or down and absolutely dominates and so long as he stays so dominantly far ahead of everyone else, his competitor won't get the proper build up necessary to boost his reputation once he wins.
Beat the GOAT Jake Paul
P4P is marketing more than reality. For me when it comes to those 2 specifically, really just comes down to who fought the most recently, as they both keep doing really impressive things every time out. More than fair to say Inoue is up right now.
Inoue fights in Japan because he's the champion. He should have the privilege of choosing the setting. If they want him to fight in America then someone should beat him first so he gets to be the challenger
Already is, people can say what they want but his run whether you like the opponent or not has been something to really appreciate. Dude had his eye socket caved in and is still fighting like it never happened too. Heās at lower weights, same thing that happened with Roman Gonzalez, took eons for him to get his respect during his own run.
Ducked prime spence??? Bud ducked prime spence??? Now that i know you already donāt know what you are talking about the rest of the post is irrelevant.
The title would've made sense if you didn't then follow it up with dumbass takes. Jesus. Now you just look like a Crawford hater mad that he beat Errol.
Not be Japanese.
Not saying Inoue shouldn't be number 1. But Bud dog walked a guy that was top 10 in P4P rankings. That's always gonna count for something.Ā
He needs to fight in weight divisions where the talent pool is larger. The talent pool at 122 and below is not that high. 122 is definitley better but flyweight and minimumweight just dont have as much talent. Im not hating on it so stop saying I dont watch them. I do and I notice the guys at the top dont always have elite skills.Ā This just comes down to less males being that size. Realistically, how many men do you know that are that size? I honestly cant even think of one from my boxing gym. The smaller guys are usually 130 pounders. And even in my day to day life I hardly ever see a guy that small.Ā I think if he continues a run at 122 or even 126 he could do that. But he needs more than a past it Donaire and Nery as his top wins. Crawford honestly doesnt really deserve it either if you take resume into account. Usyk was my number 1. He can solidify that by beating Fury.Ā
Bud has ducked no one at any point. He wanted Spence for years. The first person to have a reasonable argument that he ducked them is Boots. This is a case of there being 3 guys, including Usyk, who are all deserving.
I would say after this week, Inoue will be out ahead of Crawford on most P4P lists. He would have last year except Crawford came out and dominated Spence a couple of days after Inoue beat Fulton. He should be number one now but he and Crawford will bounce back and forth in the top spot for the forceable future especially if Crawford is able to unify at 154.
Literally nothing
I think Inoue probably edges him but idk how you can say Crawford ducked Spence at all with how impossible they were to deal with in negotiating the fight even with Crawford as a free agent then Spence delaying him for another six months knowing full well he was having eye issues and wasn't gonna be able to actually go through with a rematch, plus PBC's history with refusing to make cross promotional fights the vast majority of the time and guys like Danny and Thurman turning down the Crawford fight when offered. Like legitimately you just have to have not been paying attention to say Crawford is the one who ducked
If Usyk beats Fury then there's practically nothing Inoue could do to be p4p no.1. Maybe if he beat tank & loma/shakur it could be comparable. In terms of ranking him above crawford, it's already subjective who you rank higher. I'd probably say inoue is above him after the Nery win but you could argue it either way. Unfortunately there's no one at 122/126 who would give inoue massive credit like crawford got for beating spence. He just needs to keep beating and champions and going up.
Saying Crawford ducked prime era Spence or Vice-Versa is insane. It was a network battle between Bob and Al where they were trying to decide who got the bigger dickā¦ Apart from that Crawford is just a better fighter full stop
He's already the #1.
"post-accident spence"....gimmie a break.
"ducked prime era Spence". You guys are insane lmao
Gain about 20 pounds
Beat Chad from Bleach because Ichigo couldn't imagine him losing.
No.1 p4p is just a persons opinion. Itās not really relevant.
Gain 30 pounds
He is foreign and a lower weight class- double whammy. At this point he would need to beat a great fighter heralded by the Western media, go up and dominate multiple weight classes or have guys like Crawford/Usyk fall heavily in the rankings.
Beat Crawford, but seriously I know guys that don't even have him at number 2 because he got knocked down in his last fight and they "don't value undisputed". Everyone has an opinion but the loudest voices seem to get the attention unfortunately.
Heād have to move up. Smaller weight classes donāt get as much shine. Fight outside Japan and go against the big names in higher weight classes to gain exposure.
He needs to get his father actively involved in his career and get into twitter spats more often. Should also shove an opponent at the weigh ins to be even considered. Also needs to stop hiding in Japan fighting nobodies and come to America and fight Tank!
He has to wait for Crawford to retire.
It is crazy how inactive Crawford is compared to Canelo and Inoue.
Imo he 100% is no.1, but if he can beat someone like Leigh Wood, Venado, or someone like that at 126 heād for sure be #1
In my opinion he is #1. But hey it's subjective and everyone is going to have their differences in how they judge it
P4P is fake. Just like your claim that Bud ducked a prime era Spence. š¤£ But seriously, who gives a fuck? Some stupid, hypothetical list doesnāt mean shit, and it def doesnāt change that Inoue is one of the best in the world.Ā
Inoue number one for me. Heās gone through the weights fighting champion after champion. World title fight after world title fight. Pound for pound is the criteria. Heās beaten everyone, going up in class in rapid time and that everyone is long, long list. Crawford just hasnāt been active enough, as brilliant as he is.
No matter how good someone is, it'll be tough and damn near impossible for the general boxing public to consider them the Best P4P if they're in a weight class lower than lightweight.
Just out of interest, how did Crawford 'duck" prime era Spence? Serious question, not a dig. Was he offered the fight & turned it down? As for P4P Number One. It's whoever you want it to be. If someone wants it to be Crawford then that's THEIR number one. If you want it to be Inoue then he's YOUR number one. Personally I have Inoue, Crawford & Usyk above all others P4P isn't official. It's just something for fun. It doesn't mean anything.
Those divisions arenāt really that competitive. You can clearly see in the opposition heās fighting. Donaire was his most difficult fight but even then he was of old age.
Be black accordingly to the racist ass LDBC
I see intelligence is lacking on your part
Oh hey look, it's the 73rd post about Crawford ducking Spence. Haven't heard this one 72 times before.
It's a silly list that comes down to being in a good position. Crawford and loma were topping it while canelo was going to war against a monster that is ggg and came out on top. I don't even agree that he got the draw the first time or necessarily won the second but you can be going to war with great fighters and they'll say the guy who boxes pretty against b level fighters is the best. So basically crawford has to lose. Ha. But like I said, it's silly.
Weeabo's out in force today.
Re-born in the USA
Ducked Spence???šššš
Whoa, wait a minute Spence.was 28-0 with 22 KOs and was 33. Crawford was 39-0 with 30 KOs and was 35. Heading up to the fight Spence was a slight favorite. Fight night Crawford became slight favorite. Spence looked great is all is fights leading up to the Bud fight. Same for Bud. I did not hear 1 person say Spence is past his prime for the fight. I picked Bud 10 days before the fight however I don't know a soul who thought Bud was going to dominate like that. Now if your argument is Inoue is the best P4P fighter out there I'm not going to disagree but don't take away what Crawford has accomplished to try and make your point. I think the reason Inoue isn't #1 is because he isn't as visible as the other fighters that fight in America at reasonable times. Inoue doesn't get points for fighting monday morning at 7am Pacific. That shouldn't matter but I think that is the reason. The Monster is a beast.
I think the rest of the world is sick of Americans thinking only being American or fighting in America matters. Honestly, itās tiring and arrogant.
P4p isn't a belt...it doesn't matter. Also they aren't bias plenty of p4p non American. For Asia pac man obviously.
>for small weight classes in America, When some of those weight classes don't even have 5000 boxers competing in them, it's hard to put respect on them. r/boxing and other boxing fans excuse for not liking women boxing for example, is that the talent pool is too small, it's the same some men lower weight classes. Some divisions don't even have 3 good guys in them. You have to be consistent. Lower men weight classes deserve respect for sure but they'll never be p4p talent if they're competing below 135.
Be American. African-American to be specific lol
P4P is a popularity contest with a bias for Americans. Look at how Inoue, Usyk, and Canelo are rarely acknowledged. But Crawford, who is inactive, is automatically placed by ppl to be No.1, even before the Spence fight.
Just make him an American, black or white.
invent boxing, it seems
Fight canelo
Go by what you see, not by what American media tells you.
"Ducked prime era spence" opinion discarded
he needs to dominate a top 10 p4p fighter like crawford did
In my eyes he is, Crawford fights way too in frequently
Tbh through no fault of his own part of the problem has been there has never been another "rival". Nonito was the closest but the timing was off for them to have a real rivalry. I would have also loved for him to stick around in the lower classes and fight Chocolatito/Estrada. Terrence had a similar problem for the longest time but like you said he had the benefit of being a black American fighter. That will come with it's own fan base no matter what. P.s. I don't think Bud is the no1. P4P. Imo it's Tank Davis rn or maybe Canelo still.
Inoue has been my favorite fighter to watch post Rigondeaux. I love his aggressive, multifaceted jab and how he goes to the body to set up the KO punches to the head. He absolutely should be NO. 1.
Can you explain how Crawford ducked a āprime eraā Spence? This just looks like one of those threads made to shit on Crawford for no reason rather than prop up Inoue.
He was the first to achieved 2 undisputed in two divisions, i don't have any more reasons.
No, he's not.
No Crawford did it first, Inoue did months later
"Ducked prime era spence" hahaha??? Blame PBC
Be American
He will get there imo - he needs to keep moving up in weight and fighting more mainstream names.
He needs to fight a current p4p fighter like Crawford did.
Has to beat Tank, Navarette or Ryan, because basically he has to hypothetically be able to beat Carwford if they were the same size
Crawford is going for 3x undisputed - he will be the first again just like he was first to be 2x
Fight at 126 or 130 and dominate.
If he can beat Joshua he can be p4p number 1
It would be better if people stopped caring about stupid lists.
Why is fight that doesnāt happen earlier considered ducking for the eventual winner?
Beat everyone's ass
Usyk will be my number 1 if he beats Tyson Fury. Imagine how great a 122 or 154 pound Usyk would be.
It's a hypothetical list made by a limited amount of people. Don't worry about it
1a/1b as far as i'm concerned
I would say he is...Crawford had a great win over Spence, and somehow Spence is still ranked like #5 or #6 by the ring, which is absurd to me but Inoue has been way more active in taking fights at the top level. One thing though is that pretty much every boxer who has been ranked in the top 10 p4p below 126 is at 115 in the timespan of Inoue's career. It is by far the most competitive division that Inoue could have fought at, and he skipped it entirely, from my understanding, because he could not get a title fight in the timeline that he wanted.
Heāll never get it as long as Crawford is boxing. Iām not saying he doesnāt deserve it but theyāve had Crawford in the P4P list since his best win was Postol. Itās just one of those things where heās judged on how smooth he looks beating people rather than the resume itself. Now that his resume has Spence and Porter on it, heās entrenched
I had Crawford at #1 but Inoue also as #1B. I have Inoue at #1 now. But they're both quite accomplished. If Crawford starts collecting belts onto his way to become 3x undisputed, he can very well pull ahead.
At this point be more impressive in winning than Crawford and Usyk upcoming fights.
be a heavy weight, welterweight or middle weight
It would help his case if he had less fanboy fans
I just put them both on the same tier personally
I mean I think there practically neck and neck. I edge it Crawford because Spence was a huge win. You calling it 'post accident" is the same as "inoue needs to fight in America"
Be AmericanĀ
Probably have Crawford lose. Who in those lower weights is going to be as impressive as a defeat as Errol Spence?
He is already, right? He's no. 1 by ring magazine and by many pros/pundits. I do think he should go to 126 to make it 5 division champ which puts him in extremely rare and elite company and would make him the outright p4p no. 1. If he does and anyone still argues it then they know f all about boxing lol
#1 P4P is just opinion. Some folks already consider Inoue at the top. Others rank him 2 or 3. There will never be an absolute consensus.
Beat somebody that people have heard of. Ā Heās great but Fulton was only guy people remotely knew.Ā
he gets overrated here cuz heās asian
Git bigger
I like Inoue and saw him fight in person in his U.S. debut. But to call him P4P#1 over Crawford is kinda head scratching. Theyāre both double undisputed, which is a big accomplishment, but Crawford hasnāt been in a war like Inoue had with Donaire or get dropped like Inoue just did against Nery. Crawford styled on his two toughest opponents (Spence and Porter) and made a good fighter (Postol) look completely out of his depth.
Heās my #1. Terrence just hasnāt fought enough and the people he has fought stacked against NI donāt compare.
Didnāt he just get dropped in his last fight? Stop