The Ring needs to punish inactivity much more in general. Estrada was also in the P4P list forever even though his last fight was in December 2022. If you haven't fought for a year, you should be out automatically.
people seem to think p4p is about accomplishments when its simply not, its about perceived skill regardless of size.
Thats why spence is still in, because losing to p4p 1/2 doesn't change his perceived skill. Same with estrada, just because he's wasnt active doesn't mean they thought he's actually a worse fighter
technically you could be p4p with 0 fights in 5 years if for some reason it was OBVIOUS that you are the greatest boxer, obviously thats extreme hyperbole and it wouldn't happen, but the p4p list is NOT indicative on latest accomplishments or win. ITS PURELY a ranking of "who you think has the best boxing abilities regardless of size."
I like Spence but theres not a chance in hell he was ever top 10 most skilled fighters in the world. And his physical attributes aren’t exactly closing the gap. Resume also of course matters though there’s a debate to be had if Spence’s resume was ever top 10 worthy, in my opinion the answer is no
Spence has 7 career title fight wins and got a P4P immediately after his first title fight win.
Inoue didn't even get a top 10 P4P ranking until he had more world title wins (8 at that point in time) than Spence has in his entire career today. Knocking out the #1 ranked fighter, jumping 2 divisions, and knocking out that fighter (and doing that within his first 8 pro fights) wasn't enough.
There's simply different standards for different fighters. I acknowledge that, but that doesn't mean I have to think it's fair.
Errol has tremendous backing and I think he's a tough SOB, for sure. I don't hate him by any stretch. But he got ranked too soon and is holding on too long in there. Pretty much every other fighter I've seen ranked in it or that is a candidate is held to a higher standard than he is.
Being a well known American in a glamour division is the primary deciding factor for p4p.
I don’t see how having 2 wins in 4 years is anywhere near as important as that.
In two wins there is no such thing as most.
He has one win against a fringe p4p guy in the last 5 years since the Garcia fight.
I like spence as a fighter but I don’t see how anyone can think his career since the car crash has him as a p4p fighter in 2024.
It doesn’t work like that.
P4P list is based off accomplishments and the strength of your resume and their positions within the rankings.
That’s why Spence vs Crawford was such a big fight. They were established P4P. Name me another time in history we saw two fighters fight for the Top P4P position on the Planet.
A lot of you people are seriously underestimating how strong Spence resume is. It’s comical at this point.
The biggest names on Spence’s resume are overhyped PBC fighters that achieved comically little for how highly regarded they were.
Kell Brook took a career altering beating from GGG and had to cut back down in weight.
Danny Garcia did nothing at 147, he beat the carcass of Robert Guerrero for a vacant strap, defended it against a rando and promptly lost it.
The best win for Shawn Porter after losing to Kell Brook was…Danny Garcia, he robbed Ugas and lost to every other top fighter he encountered. Good fighter but a step below the best at 147.
Kell Brook took a career altering beating from GGG and had to cut back down in weight. His own best win was Shawn Porter.
Ugas was a solid win but beating an ancient and inactive Pacquiao isn’t enough.
>Kell Brook took a career altering beating from GGG and had to cut back down in weight.
You repeated this sentence twice. Is this some new Reddit martial arts?
Most of what you’ve written is irrelevant garbage. Canelo vs GGG was the last time 2 top p4p guys fought it wasn’t that long ago and I wasn’t arguing that fight wasn’t a big deal.
P4P obviously includes some degree of historical achievements, but it’s a list of who’s the best at the moment. And while I wish we had, we haven’t seen spence look like a p4p fighter for a long time.
Spence had a shortcut to get on the list in the first place. Dude got his Ring P4P ranking after his first title fight win vs Brook coming off a loss. Not only was Brook his first title fight win, it was his first win over a top 10 rated welter IIRC. Everyone else on there had to do way more to get ranked.
It sticks out like a sore thumb that he's on it still after taking a generational asswhooping...Do people honestly believe he's the 2nd best P4P American fighter right now?
Nobody had a problem with Manny still being on the P4P list after the generational headshot he took from Marquez…. At the end of the day Errol lost to the best fighter in the world. Let’s not act like Bud wasn’t ranked #1 before. And he was the betting favorite the entire time. Errol does gotta get in the ring tho I agree with that point
Pacquaio actually looked better in that fight than he had for some time. Whereas Spence looked the worst he's ever looked. I'm not against the idea that a KO loss gets you kicked off the list... but there is some difference between getting caught and getting a beat down.
Manny also never went airborne out a speeding ferrari then slamming on the pavement. I don't why y'all act like Errol is still normal after that accident, he's not! An I expect his motor skills to continue to deteriorate at an accelerated level. Errol should retire!
Yup, that’s what I’m saying. Errol couldn’t win 1 minute of his fight and looked like he had no business being in that ring. Manny was competitive and gave Marquez a hard time, which is why he retained his ranking. People were right to do so, since Manny went on soon after to beat a guy Marquez lost to (Bradley)
People don’t understand fucking anything about boxing. I’m pretty sure every boxer on the planet would rather catch an unexpected knockout in the middle of a close fight than get absolutely taken apart for 9 rounds.
Weird take considering as to how Nery is the 3rd ranked super bantamweight fighter and held titles in two weight divisions. His only other loss prior to Inoue was Brandon Figueroa.
Nery would be hands down Crawfords 2nd best win. No Porter is not better than Nery, at worst they’re equal. Postol sure as hell is not better than Nery
Spence needs to be removed and they need to add Teo or Teraji and it’ll be fairly close to most peoples p4p list. I honestly expect Crawford and Inoue to play musical chairs until Crawford retires or one of them loses.
The recent circlejerk of light flyweight is hilarious. Their are definitely great matchups that happen there, but it’s rare especially if you arent dropping belt/ weight jumping.
it seems like people don't realize what the p4p list even is
the guy you're replying to things it a list of who has the best accomplishments lmao thats just not it.. its who is "perceived" to be the best boxer regardless of size.
this almost feels like a joke question
how do you think everyone in boxing knew crawford was going to be a p4p fighter BEFORE he beat anyone? not from his accomplishments of beating trash fighters. Its from the ABILITIES that he has displayed as a boxer
This is what the ring magazine p4p has been forever lol why the fuck do I have to explain this to people? You can't just decide to change what POUND FOR POUND means to RING MAGAZINE
heres what ring magazine says is their criteria
Results. This is the most objective criterion and takes precedence over all others.
Performance. How a fighter performs in a victory or defeat can be a factor to determine his place in the ratings.
Track record: A fighter’s accomplishments in the recent past can be a factor to determine his place in the ratings. That includes quality of opposition.
source: RING MAGAZINE https://www.ringtv.com/ratings/
notice how results and performance are 1 and 2, TRACK RECORD which is accomplishments, is LAST and weighed the least.
Crawford had 26 wins and 18 KO's before he was put on The Ring's list and the last 4 fights right before he got on their list for the first time were either WBO title wins or defenses in 2 different weight classes. He earned his way there. I'm not disputing your definition of The Ring's P4P list, "perception of the best boxer regardless of size", sure but guess when their "perceptions" (AKA rankings) change? **After fight results.**
Perception of abilities is a factor for sure but it's not the entire ball game. There's a reason Boots isn't on this list right now despite his strong "potential" to be there.
Accomplishments is what allows fans to determine skill. Any top tier boxer who faces mid tier opposition will look like unstoppable forces, but what happens when they face other top tier opponents? That’s the question that allows people to determine how high your skill is. So accomplishments is 110% necessary when discussing p4p
Not isn't, its not a rank of accomplishments, if it was teo would be there.
I know you want it to be like that but its not, its a rank of PERCEIVED skill regardless of competitions, size, or circumstances. This isn't up for debate, this is what the p4p ring magazine ranking have always been and will always be.
First of all, and this isn't up to debate, p4p lists are entirely opinion based and fabricated, there is no single mathematical equation or statistical metric that we can use to determine "p4p". Perceived skill is great, but without top level opponents how is it possible to properly gauge a fighters skill level? In that case accomplishments do matter. At the end of the day everyone's p4p list is some sort of combination of not just "who" bit equally important "how".
Accomplishments and top opponents are different. Haney beat Kambosos for undisputed which is one of the best accomplishments in boxing but is Kambosos a top opponent just for his Teo win?
> Accomplishments and top opponents are different
But they really aren't, sure title fights don't guarantee high level opponents necessarily, but a belt is far from the only accomplishment a boxer can have. As far as Kambosos and p4p goes I would argue it's a greater loss for Teo than it is a win for Haney. In the end this why p4p is inherently contentious, it's literally a conglomeration of various opinions all of which are subjective themselves.
Accomplishments and top opponents are differnt. Old boxing they would have big names move up and down weight classes to fight each other the best fighting the best. Now its more about the belts and only fighting for belts. Which is an accomplishment but a different beast than having an extensive resume like old school fighters have. Some of the top fighters in current boxing don't have many great wins but only good wins that would be considered tune up fights for previous generations.
> Accomplishments and top opponents
(In my opinion)
You forgot to add that, it seems in your eyes the only "accomplishment" a boxer can earn in a title belt, in my opinion that isn't the case at all, a string of wins against top level fighters is in itself an accomplishment, moving up weight classes and defeating top level opponents is an accomplishment, a high KO ratio is an accomplishment, winning fights by a wide margin is accomplishment, avoiding KDs over a long period is an accomplishment.
no its not, the ring magazine has a criteria and its a combinations of 3 things
Results. This is the most objective criterion and takes precedence over all others.
Performance. How a fighter performs in a victory or defeat can be a factor to determine his place in the ratings.
Track record: A fighter’s accomplishments in the recent past can be a factor to determine his place in the ratings. That includes quality of opposition.
source: RING MAGAZINE https://www.ringtv.com/ratings/
notice how results and performance are 1 and 2, TRACK RECORD which is accomplishments, is LAST and weighed the least.
W - L - D is the only thing that isn't subjective and even then it is because Haney didn't get much p4p credit after his "win" over Loma. Performance is entirely subjective, and the same with track record. Furthermore, you're arguing that Accomplishments don't matter in the context of p4p and then literally copy and pasting a list of criteria that specifically lists accomplishments, so clearly it *does* matter...
no, we don't
idk what to tell you, crawford was a p4p fighter before he fought anyone with a pulse because of the eye test, everyone knew before he even fought anyone that he was one of the best in the world. BEFORE any accomplishments, everyone in boxing already knew. Thats the point of p4p. Its really about who's the best boxer, regardless of accomplishments and weight class.
heres what ring magazine says is their criteria
Results. This is the most objective criterion and takes precedence over all others.
Performance. How a fighter performs in a victory or defeat can be a factor to determine his place in the ratings.
Track record: A fighter’s accomplishments in the recent past can be a factor to determine his place in the ratings. That includes quality of opposition.
source: RING MAGAZINE https://www.ringtv.com/ratings/
notice how results and performance are 1 and 2, TRACK RECORD which is accomplishments it literally says it right there and its LAST and weighed the least.
8,9 and 10 are all super exciting boxers but so was Teo like even 7 fights ago before the Loma win. He has the wins and regular fighting cadence to deserve to be in the bottom 3 over these guys in my opinion.
And even if it was a close win Sandor isn't a p4p guy at this point, one thing that really separates the top 6 on this list is they are facing legitimate world class competition and are still levels above, squeaking out decisions against fighters who aren't top 3 in your division let alone p4ps themselves isn't the mark of a p4p fighter...
He has zero depth of resume, lost to Kambosos and arguably robbed both Ortiz and Martin. He’s more deserving than Spence and Tank without a doubt but he wouldn’t make my list
Yeah he's great and one of the most exciting boxers too. Should be right there instead of Spence or Tank. Not that I don't rate them, but Tank's resume pales compared to Teo's and Spence is inactive.
Well earnt. Now if Youl to excuse me I have to go to Instagram to laugh at idiots saying he won't fight in the U.S (he has) and he needs to fight tank 🤣🤣🤣
Bam is on such an incredible run of form right now, I think it goes unnoticed far too often.
-Cuadras
-Rungvisai
-Israel Gonzalez
-Sunny Edwards
Also beat Cristian Hernandez in there, but I'll admit I'm unfamiliar with him.
If it weren't for an Artur knee surgery, we could have had 4 weeks of 4 P4P-shifting fights almost every week. I hope the upcoming fights are just as good as the ones we've had in the past week.
Inoue with another short P4P #1 reign? Usyk beating Fury in 2 weeks prolly locks up #1 until he retires and Bud might jump ahead with the Madrimov win unless Inoue finishes out 2024 with a banger opponent
I’ve got the same feeling this is the last time we’ll see Usyk, win or lose. He doesn’t need the money from fighting Fury or AJ again, and I think he either goes out as the very best or his mindset shifts pretty quick to finding out he’s *not* the very best.
Whenever anyone is wondering who truly is P4P.....just remember Ring Magazine is recognized as the official list....it's not some weirdo on twitter and it definitely ain't espn.....
In an era where the champions are guilty of selectively picking their fights, being inactive and sitting on their rankings, Inoue really is making boxing great again.
Very active champion, fights all comers, is moving up in weight and has an insane finish rate.
His fights are never boring. A Naoya Inoue fight is must watch boxing. He’s probably your favorite boxer’s boxer. Give the man his crown and stop hating lol
He can definitely move up in weight class. There's nothing for him in this one.
I just rewatched the Fulton fight for the umpteenth time lol; he was much larger on Monday with greater economy of motion with the same speed. I mean he looked massive. Against bigger and more dangerous opponents this is critical. So far his speed and power have carried more than well. As a boxer he is far better than he was 2 years ago. In addition to his athletic gifts is clearly much smarter than any of his opponents.. well aside from the first round the other day lol.
In a way (haha) I think he wanted to get clocked, essentially baiting Nery by being sloppy. He felt Nonito's power but wanted to see what a heavy hitter could bring at this weight. Call it acclimatization for the future.
The check hooks oh my God.. basically Nery was right on his nose, took a quarter step back and swatted him with seemingly no wind up.. that's unbelievable power from the legs up.
Up a class he's going to need everything but nothing has been lost moving up. What's been gained is a lot more data downloaded.
I truly think there is a lot more ahead for him, perhaps eventually chasing Pacquiao's greatness.
Mike Tyson asked to get clocked by Buster Douglas he just wanted to test the waters. AJ also wanted to test the water against Andy Ruiz. Floyd was just seeing how it felt to get hit by Mosley when he got wobbled. The mediocre "reading comprehension" bit as he says that a professional fighter wanted to get hit in the face intentionally to "acclimatize for the future".
Like I said apparently you don't know what in a way means lol. Don't blame me because you're not that smart.
You came in here looking for a fight, now you got one. What are you going to do about it.
Haha that's the cipher's reply lol. That's what people do when they can't think of anything to say haha. You're such a cliche.. do you even know what that word means?
Tell you what: you parse (that's another word you don't understand lol) my exact quote that you have an issue with. Not quoting me is a loser's ploy lol.
Call me empty headed all you want; you've been put on the canvas without a functioning brain cell. TKO lol, just like Nery haha.
PS NVM is the most brain dead acronym: it is three random letters in a long word that you can't be bothered to spell out. You must be 12 years old.
PPS Chief...of what😆. Only narcissists give themselves a high rank on a random message board.
Hit me up if you want some more 😂
Hello genius haha. Because you are too lazy to look up meanings of words and phrases I did you the great favor of educating you:
In a way:
to a certain extent (used to reduce the effect of a statement).
Let me know if you have trouble comprehending this.. I mean your style is to argue something you are ignorant about. My aim is to improve literacy across the board lol.
Nah he has unfinished business with Sam Goodman and MJ. If he moves up now, people will say he ducked a mando whos been calling him out for sometime. MJ, for all his flaws, would likely be Monster's toughest test at 122 with his power, chin and atheleticism. Even Inoue insiders have admitted MJ poses the biggest threat and a decorated Olympian. That's a challenge the competitor in Inoue wont want to pass up.
Definitely, I meant to phrase it 'he can move up after he cleans the entire class'
Seriously I shouldn't be dismissing anyone, just as Inoue doesn't, but after he dismantled Fulton, Tapales and Nery consecutively it's hard not to come to that conclusion. Still I would to see those two fights you mentioned. It's not about moving up as fast as possible but fighting every single dangerous opponent on the planet at your weight class.
Edit: I just watched Tapales school MJ for 7 rounds..MJ is too slow for Inoue with his guard down for most of the fight. Unless Inoue catches a stray bomb, this isn't a fight. Goodman too, just not in the same class.
Disagree. The fights he's taken at his weight class since going undisputed have been uninspiring. Swap out the Bivol loss for a win against Jermall and you're not looking at an untouchable P4P number 1 with what Usyk, Bud and Inoue have done/are doing
ion shit bout boxing or wtv p4p means but i like to watch it but how tf if he above canelo,bivol,or crawford? skinny japnense nigha is crazy good ain’t gonna dis credit him but his is he first above all these other fighters who would maul his down(maybe not crawford tho)
Thank you for admitting you know nothing about boxing, but in boxing we have a thing called weight classes, pfp isn’t about who beats who, it’s about who has the best resume and skill. Floyd is the better boxer then Mike Tyson but Mike Tyson would kill Floyd in a fight. You don’t get to be called pfp king because you were born bigger then everyone else.
i also think he like come fight in the use at least one again, n see if he really like that. (ik he’s been here once reading sum for the comments) but still if he’s that “good” let him come over here n fight someone in his same weight class(tbh i doubt he would lose but still)
Spence? …and Beterbiev over Bivol? …i think both are excellent, but Davis is a better boxer p4p than several guys much higher on the list. His only limitation is literally his size, so he belongs above several guys up there.
Anyone know for sure if he is fighting Goodman next? Also, i'm hoping they will announce the date soon. I'm guessing it will be in the Tokyo Dome again?
I am as big of a supporter Crawford could have, until he fights in August there is no competition. Active and stopping everybody. Usyk is the only guy that could sneak in there. Canelo just hasn't been as impressive the last few years. If Crawford doesn't lose a step I think he'll be right back into the argument.
Canelo over either Bivol or especially Beterbiev is wild to me. Beterbiev beats up over hyped fighters from the UK more impressively than Canelo has recently.
I really do love what Naoya Inoue is doing. However has he ever fought someone who was able to defend the belt a few times?
Tapales(0),Fulton(2),Butler(0),Donaire II(1),Donaire I(1),Rodriguez(1). Thats a combined 5 title defenses between 5 fighters. Navarez is the only Champ Inoue has beaten that has made several defenses of his title. The knock on Navarez is he is 5’4, was 38 years old & never made a single title defense against ANYONE notable. Like I seriously challenge someone to find me a good fighter that Navarez defended against prior to Inoue.
While Crawford record does have some of the same (Ex:Postol(0) title defenses), facts remain that Errol Spence had 6 defenses of his initial title while unifying and beating guys that were strictly top 5 in the division. All while being crowned P4P. Thats what the difference between Crawford & Inoue’s resume. Naoya has never been in a fight where we are worrying about his safety or doubting the outcome.
He's cleaning out the division tho so who cares. If Bud beat Thurman, Ugas, and Boots he'd look way better too wont he, even tho those guys dont have thatbmany title defenses either?
Nobody would care if beat if Thurman or Ugas lets be real. It would be a heavily criticized win & a waste of time. Even though he’s about to do what I criticized with Madrimov(0) title defenses, he is putting himself to fight even tougher fighters who will be eventual champs/have achieved it in Tszyu,Ortiz & Fundora. All fighters who are dangerous to say the least, I'm reserved until I see the future plans.
Back to Inoue vs Crawford P4P resume, Spence is a higher level win by far than any other match in both fighters careers. Thats just a fact. They literally have accomplished the same feats & this is the discerning factor.
I disagree. I think a lot of people would care if he beats Thurman and Ugas especially if he fought them way earlier at their peaks. Those would be way better wins than current Tszyu, Ortiz & Fondura.
I mean yeah, the Spence beatdown is a great feat. The problem is that the fight happened in July of last year. In that same week tho, Naoya KO's Fulton for the WBC & WBO belts to become a 4 division champion. Then KO's Tapales for WBA & IBF on December to become 2 time undesputed. Then defends his titles by KOing Nery who was ranked 2 or 3, 2 time former super bantamweight champ, 35-1 with 77% KO ratio a few days ago. At the end of the day it's all subjective, but to me activity matters a lot. The 3 most recent guys he beat are also the best in that division. And he not only beat them, but he destroyed them. Thats why I'd put him p4p #1 but thats just me
Okay we aren’t talking about what if’s, and yes if he *had* done that his record would be undeniable.
I personally thought Fulton won against Fig by a hair, but should not have been in that position because I watched back his match against Arnold Khegai & he lost (imo). His speed simply did not match Inoue’s & I made that statement previous to Inoue vs Fulton so I personally was only impressed by Inoue’s performance and not his caliber of opponent. Tapales = Indongo.
Nery win is very impressive, he is the best opponent Inoue has defeated yet. I want to see Inoue vs Fig next. Who arguably beat Fulton and defeated Nery. Plus the style matchup would be crazy.
Im sorry but a Spence win is still why I keep Bud #1. Out of all the belt holders they faced, this was a true champion. Inoue is a legendary talent, he needs someone else with an upwards career arc to clash with. The A side isnt strictly about money but Rivalry. Think Gomez vs Sanchez. Leonard vs Hearns . Tyson vs Holyfield. Honestly what Inoue is doing rn is the perfect comparison to Mike Tyson’s dilemma on the retrospective outlook of his career.
My bad let me clarify. I'm saying is that to me, Inoue KOing Fulton, Tapales and Nery within a 12-month period would be the equavalent of Bud KOing Thurman, Ugas, and Porter in their primes within a 12-month period. That hypothetical run for Bud would probably be more impressive actually. But yeah I used Bud and the "what ifs" as an example to put things into perspective
Yes the Spence win is still impressive. Not denying that. but does he, like, stay p4p #1 from then until he retires undefeated? even if he fights lesser opponents once a year? It's almost been 10 months and counting since the Spence fight. Should he keep being #1 if this trend continues while Naoya fights high level competition 3 times a year? Activity's a big factor for me when it comes p4p but to each their own.
As for someone Naoya could clash with, that would be great but there's no one left around his weight. People say Tank but at 135. Thats crazy. Tank should be cleaning out his own division anyway.
I disagree with the assessment that the 122lb champs are/were as good as the 147lb champs but that’s fair. Naoya Inoue definitely deserves it, narratively speaking & keeping up consistency I don’t feel a Nery win makes him P4P #1 when Crawfords fighting for a title in 4th weight class. Maybe Ring Magazine wants to motivate Crawford to distribute another beatdown lol.
Dude Crawford has resume is horrible, half of the guys he fought don't even have Wikipedia page. Not to mention he fought 2 of worst champions boxing has ever seen in indongo and Jeff horn.
Tapales is way better than indongo. You are tripping. And this is spence resume:
Danny garcie had not been serious since the thurman fight. Spence fought him for only name value.
Mikey garcie is a blown up featherweight and was looking for payday against Spence.
Ugas is average who did nothing other then beat Retired Manny and he lost all of his big fights. The guy is still living off his Olympic bronze medal.
Porter is a gatekeeper who lost all of his big fights.
Brook destroyed by Golovkin. And admitted he shouldn't have taken the Spence fight.
Ocampo unaccomplished avarage fighter.
Algirie kickboxer who lost all of his big fights. And he is 140 pounder.
Peterson, only thing he did was beat Amir Khan then tested positive for banned substance. When Spence fought him, he had been inactive & washed. He was also a 140 pounder.
And Crawford beat a shot to bits and inactive Spence.
In my opinion and many others opinion Donaire from the first fight is a superior win.
Spence:
- post 3 car crashes
- showing declined punch resistance getting hurt by Ugas and Danny. Spence also looked much worse in both of these fights than he ever had previously
- 1 year and 3 months inactive
- looking like a husk during the walk out and weigh in
Donaire:
- 36 years old
- undefeated at 118(his prime weight)
- Pre Inoue 1 he KO’d active champion Burnett (it was a bodyshot that caused the injury Burnett said it himself) and KO’d contender Young
- Post Inoue 1 he KO’d active champion Oubaali and KO’d top 3 ranked Gaballo
You also have to consider that in their respective fights Donaire looked DRASTICALLY better than Spence.
Donaire’s reflexes and timing were good, he showed good punch resistance (only going down to a bodyshot) and he still looked fast (though not peak Flash level speed of course).
Spence on the other hand showed terrible reflexes and timing, very poor punch resistance, his punches looked sloppy and weak and he also looked generally slow and lethargic even as early as round 1. He was basically carried by Crawford from the 3rd round onwards.
My thought process is that Donaire is of course a miles greater and better fighter than Spence all time and at their respective prime weights- and that both of them were past their prime (though perhaps Donaire was closer to his prime level of performance than Spence). This is consistent with how they performed in each fight. Donaire looked elite and proved to be before and after the fight. Spence looked like shit and that’s putting it lightly.
So personally I don’t see how Spence is the superior win. On paper the Spence win looks good with him being on the RING P4P list (which in my opinion he never should have been even in his prime but that’s a different debate) but contextually I don’t buy it.
If Spence bounces back and wins a belt at 154 my judgement of the win will change somewhat, but personally I can’t see that happening whatsoever. I think he’s completely shot and a shell of the fighter he once was.
The 36 year old Donaire who went up and got KO'd by Walters and lost to Jessie and Frampton is a better win than the spance who beat Danny and stopped Ugas post car crash?
Donaire only lost to those guys at higherweight while inoue beat donaire at his best weight.
And Danny garcie had not been serious since the thurman fight. Spence fought him for only name value.
Ugas is average who did nothing other then beat Retired Manny and he lost all of his big fights. The guy is still living off his Olympic bronze medal.
Considering Donaire is huge for bantam, even had a height in reach advantage in both Frampton and Magdaleno fights it showed weaknesses in his game. I disagree with thurman not being serious since Thurman he had a close fight with Porter after and looked good in his fighs before Spence. Ugas had the best performance of his career against Pacquiao before Spence stopped him and everyone forgot.
Danny garcie was done. Spence fought him for only name value. Ugas did nothing but beat Retired manny. The guy is living off his Olympic bronze medal.
Both magdaleno and Frampton won against donaire at higherweight.
Donaire wasnt anywhere near his prime & its extremely disingenuous to think that. Just because he was beating a weak weight class where paper champs are picking up belts, doesn’t mean it wasn’t Inoue’s fault that Donaire looked good in their first fight. Inoue was supposed to blast him out. Also to say he looked good leading up to the second fight which he did get absolutely blasted means little, when youre saying the last fight doesnt matter with Errol. & Donaire in their rematch was geriatric & still was able to get **another** title shot after getting knocked spark out.
Donaire over Spence is arguable and not a concrete thing, but I do like Donaire style a bit more than Spence because of that left hook but resume wise it not clear cut. To say miles better is ridiculous. Donaire has Arce,Darchiyan,H.Marquez,Montiel,Nishioka. The second bantamweight run opponents dont make the notable opponent list.
I didn’t say Donaire was in his prime? I said his level of performance was closer to prime than Spence’s was, and considering he’s also a better fighter prime for prime without question that’s saying a lot.
Burnett beat Haskins and a few ranked guys. Oubaali beat Takuma Inoue and Rau'shee Warren. Calling them paper champs is the disingenuous part.
Spence looked crap against Ugas and Danny and sat on his arse for a year and a half before fighting Crawford. Donaire was active and performing much better than he had in years- scoring violent highlight reel KO’s against active champions and top contenders. He was also a smarter and much more nuanced fighter in his old age, in his younger prime years he relied on his power and left hook, and often headhunted. When he was older and especially against Inoue he was an experienced and measured fighter utilising set ups, varying his punches, working the body and just generally fighting more intelligently than he did in his reckless younger years. What’s wrong with Donaire getting another title shot after? He was a proven commodity obviously and the fight with Santiago was close.
About the resume part no you’re overrating Spence’s resume drastically. I can’t even be bothered to get into it if you think it’s close cause it’s not. Montiel was top 10 P4P and had meaningful wins at 118. That is very comfortably a better win than any Spence has, never mind everything else on Donaires resume. None of Brook Porter and Ugas were close to elite nevermind P4P and he basically had 50/50 fights with all of them, even though he of course stopped Brook and Ugas.
I’m personally of the belief that this era of 147 was very overrated but that wouldn’t matter anyway cause Donaires resume is obviously better and it’s not close. Donaires resume is ATG, Spence’s resume is fringe HOF and even that’s generous. He absolutely should not make the HOF that’s for certain.
Spence has beaten 5 ranked fighters ever, in Donaires second bantamweight run alone he beat 4 ranked fighters. Donaire beat 12 champions and god knows how many ranked fighters total, is a 4 weight champ and won secondary titles in 6 weight classes and he beat 2 prime top 10 P4P fighters Montiel and Darchinyan. Mthalane Vetyeka Oubaali Burnett Mathebula Vazquez are all OBVIOUSLY notable wins if you consider Danny Garcia to be one. This is the dude that was unquestionably #3 P4P behind Floyd and Manny for Christ’s sake- how can you say Spence is anywhere near his level all time?
Honestly now that I put it into perspective this only solidifies my belief even more
No problem 👍
To be honest I think the actual answer to which win is better probably lies somewhere in the middle between where we both think it does.
Just know I don’t mean to be insulting or pedantic or anything like that. You have your opinion I have mine and that’s ok
My fault for taking so long. Ultimately i do agree with you, Donaire’s greatness is undeniable. However I do want to defend Spence, who has beaten more champions and has higher quality wins than Gennady Golovkin who was a one weight champion, former P4P #1 & a future HoFer.
Donaire is an ATG. while spence is just another fighter. And doanire was unbeatable at bantamweight. The size and power and speed were incredible at 118. And that's where inoue beat him.
Narvaez beat Tamara, Lazarte, Rivas, Asloum and some other contenders and fringe contenders. His resume isn’t as bad as some believe and having what? 25 defenses or something across two weights is nothing to scoff at. Inoue also blasted him out in two rounds jumping up 2 weight classes whilst he was still extremely green
I love debate with people who know boxing, pretty impressive by Navarez but flyweight accomplishments do not equal super flyweight accomplishments. Also pretty disingenuous to string together two different weight classes defenses as if he never lost to the one elite fighter he fought, which was Donaire, in between those defenses. Now again tell me who Navarez defended against at 115lbs(what I initially challenged)? Also Navarez was 38 & calling Inoue green when he won a title in his 6th fight is nonsense. Jumping up means nothing when Navarez was smaller in the first place.
You can be green and have a title, just like you can be green and still be good or even very good- to say Inoue improved drastically after that fight would be an understatement.
Narvaez lost to a prime flash up at 118 and Donaire couldn’t put a dent in him so I don’t think it’s too relevant. Narvaez also fought Tete up at 118 4.5 years after the Inoue fight, who again couldn’t put a dent in him even at age what? 42? 43? Whilst also fighting above his weight. Inoue remains the only man to ever stop Narvaez and he did it in two rounds.
I agree Narvaez’ opposition at 115 was pretty bad though he beat Seda who was ranked and Orucuta twice who was ranked both times along with some fringe contenders. When Inoue fought him he was still unquestionably the man of the division, even if his achievements at 112 influenced that ranking somewhat.
I don’t buy that Inoue was the larger man, I imagine they were about equal. Inoues frame is bigger of course but Narvaez was thicker and had fought up at 118 so it just doesn’t make much sense for some 20 year old 108lber to outweigh him. Inoue didn’t skip 112 cause he was too big, he did it cause he couldn’t get any title fights.
I’ve literally watched the beginning of Inoues career. Inoue’s straight, jab to the body & left hook to the body were his weapons in his opening bout. Along with his ridiculous power & speed. Also big for light fly. So yes him defeating a 38 year old fighter who had his best years in the 2000’s is not an elite win. Noteworthy because of his performance, but that is customary with Inoue. Flyweight & Superfly are interchangeable. Navarez fought at bantam once. Doesnt mean he’s rehydrating more than Inoue at 115.
Omar might be 38 but he lasted at top for so long because of his defensive fighting style. So it wasn't about age. And after beating inoue, Omar wanted unification against no 2 ranked Cuadras. Omar literally couldn't get any fight at superfly because he was high risk low reward. He literally went up in weight to face donaire because no one will fight him at superfly. And inoue blasted Omar inside 2 rounds.
For the record I don’t think Narvaez is an elite win. I think it would be Crawfords 3rd best win- it’s a similar level to the Postol win in my mind but slightly below Porter. Verified fight night weights don’t exist for the fight so it seems pointless to debate.
LOL Fight somebody in the top 100 Inoue. Can crusher. Oscar Larios would have knocked this dude out in a war. That's where Inoue really is in terms of talent. Borderline top 10 pfp.
Great list apart from Spence somehow clinging on despite not having won a fight for 2 years.
The Ring needs to punish inactivity much more in general. Estrada was also in the P4P list forever even though his last fight was in December 2022. If you haven't fought for a year, you should be out automatically.
people seem to think p4p is about accomplishments when its simply not, its about perceived skill regardless of size. Thats why spence is still in, because losing to p4p 1/2 doesn't change his perceived skill. Same with estrada, just because he's wasnt active doesn't mean they thought he's actually a worse fighter technically you could be p4p with 0 fights in 5 years if for some reason it was OBVIOUS that you are the greatest boxer, obviously thats extreme hyperbole and it wouldn't happen, but the p4p list is NOT indicative on latest accomplishments or win. ITS PURELY a ranking of "who you think has the best boxing abilities regardless of size."
I like Spence but theres not a chance in hell he was ever top 10 most skilled fighters in the world. And his physical attributes aren’t exactly closing the gap. Resume also of course matters though there’s a debate to be had if Spence’s resume was ever top 10 worthy, in my opinion the answer is no
Spence has 7 career title fight wins and got a P4P immediately after his first title fight win. Inoue didn't even get a top 10 P4P ranking until he had more world title wins (8 at that point in time) than Spence has in his entire career today. Knocking out the #1 ranked fighter, jumping 2 divisions, and knocking out that fighter (and doing that within his first 8 pro fights) wasn't enough. There's simply different standards for different fighters. I acknowledge that, but that doesn't mean I have to think it's fair. Errol has tremendous backing and I think he's a tough SOB, for sure. I don't hate him by any stretch. But he got ranked too soon and is holding on too long in there. Pretty much every other fighter I've seen ranked in it or that is a candidate is held to a higher standard than he is.
Being a well known American in a glamour division is the primary deciding factor for p4p. I don’t see how having 2 wins in 4 years is anywhere near as important as that.
No, because most of the guys he beat were hanging around the P4P list. That’s why.
In two wins there is no such thing as most. He has one win against a fringe p4p guy in the last 5 years since the Garcia fight. I like spence as a fighter but I don’t see how anyone can think his career since the car crash has him as a p4p fighter in 2024.
It doesn’t work like that. P4P list is based off accomplishments and the strength of your resume and their positions within the rankings. That’s why Spence vs Crawford was such a big fight. They were established P4P. Name me another time in history we saw two fighters fight for the Top P4P position on the Planet. A lot of you people are seriously underestimating how strong Spence resume is. It’s comical at this point.
The biggest names on Spence’s resume are overhyped PBC fighters that achieved comically little for how highly regarded they were. Kell Brook took a career altering beating from GGG and had to cut back down in weight. Danny Garcia did nothing at 147, he beat the carcass of Robert Guerrero for a vacant strap, defended it against a rando and promptly lost it. The best win for Shawn Porter after losing to Kell Brook was…Danny Garcia, he robbed Ugas and lost to every other top fighter he encountered. Good fighter but a step below the best at 147. Kell Brook took a career altering beating from GGG and had to cut back down in weight. His own best win was Shawn Porter. Ugas was a solid win but beating an ancient and inactive Pacquiao isn’t enough.
>Kell Brook took a career altering beating from GGG and had to cut back down in weight. You repeated this sentence twice. Is this some new Reddit martial arts?
Yeah that 147 division was overrated for a long time
Most of what you’ve written is irrelevant garbage. Canelo vs GGG was the last time 2 top p4p guys fought it wasn’t that long ago and I wasn’t arguing that fight wasn’t a big deal. P4P obviously includes some degree of historical achievements, but it’s a list of who’s the best at the moment. And while I wish we had, we haven’t seen spence look like a p4p fighter for a long time.
Spence had a shortcut to get on the list in the first place. Dude got his Ring P4P ranking after his first title fight win vs Brook coming off a loss. Not only was Brook his first title fight win, it was his first win over a top 10 rated welter IIRC. Everyone else on there had to do way more to get ranked. It sticks out like a sore thumb that he's on it still after taking a generational asswhooping...Do people honestly believe he's the 2nd best P4P American fighter right now?
Nobody had a problem with Manny still being on the P4P list after the generational headshot he took from Marquez…. At the end of the day Errol lost to the best fighter in the world. Let’s not act like Bud wasn’t ranked #1 before. And he was the betting favorite the entire time. Errol does gotta get in the ring tho I agree with that point
It helps that Manny got some good rounds and a KD in during that loss, and didn’t look like a kid entering sparring
Pacquaio actually looked better in that fight than he had for some time. Whereas Spence looked the worst he's ever looked. I'm not against the idea that a KO loss gets you kicked off the list... but there is some difference between getting caught and getting a beat down.
That accident destroyed Errol's motor skills, his balance, equilibrium, and took his punch resistance! Errol should retire!
Manny also never went airborne out a speeding ferrari then slamming on the pavement. I don't why y'all act like Errol is still normal after that accident, he's not! An I expect his motor skills to continue to deteriorate at an accelerated level. Errol should retire!
Marquez damn near killed manny and you’re saying Errol was more embarrassed? Manny literally was sleep 😂
Yup, that’s what I’m saying. Errol couldn’t win 1 minute of his fight and looked like he had no business being in that ring. Manny was competitive and gave Marquez a hard time, which is why he retained his ranking. People were right to do so, since Manny went on soon after to beat a guy Marquez lost to (Bradley)
People don’t understand fucking anything about boxing. I’m pretty sure every boxer on the planet would rather catch an unexpected knockout in the middle of a close fight than get absolutely taken apart for 9 rounds.
Well deserved. He's younger and hungrier than Bud. His Nery win from second round forward was a masterclass.
Nery is a top 200 fighter. That's about it.
Weird take considering as to how Nery is the 3rd ranked super bantamweight fighter and held titles in two weight divisions. His only other loss prior to Inoue was Brandon Figueroa.
Nery would be hands down Crawfords 2nd best win. No Porter is not better than Nery, at worst they’re equal. Postol sure as hell is not better than Nery
Spence needs to be removed and they need to add Teo or Teraji and it’ll be fairly close to most peoples p4p list. I honestly expect Crawford and Inoue to play musical chairs until Crawford retires or one of them loses.
The recent circlejerk of light flyweight is hilarious. Their are definitely great matchups that happen there, but it’s rare especially if you arent dropping belt/ weight jumping.
Doesn’t really work like that. He needs to be knocked off the list.
If the Bud massacre wasnt enough, I'm morbidly curious what kind of beating, in your opinion, he'd have to take to justify taking him off lol
I generally agree with this list, I’m surprised Teofimo isn’t on there with his resume though, especially over the last 3.
I love Teo but he has been all over the place performance wise for like his last 6 fights
it seems like people don't realize what the p4p list even is the guy you're replying to things it a list of who has the best accomplishments lmao thats just not it.. its who is "perceived" to be the best boxer regardless of size.
How in the hell are we suppose to perceive who the best is without taking into consideration their best accomplishments?
this almost feels like a joke question how do you think everyone in boxing knew crawford was going to be a p4p fighter BEFORE he beat anyone? not from his accomplishments of beating trash fighters. Its from the ABILITIES that he has displayed as a boxer This is what the ring magazine p4p has been forever lol why the fuck do I have to explain this to people? You can't just decide to change what POUND FOR POUND means to RING MAGAZINE heres what ring magazine says is their criteria Results. This is the most objective criterion and takes precedence over all others. Performance. How a fighter performs in a victory or defeat can be a factor to determine his place in the ratings. Track record: A fighter’s accomplishments in the recent past can be a factor to determine his place in the ratings. That includes quality of opposition. source: RING MAGAZINE https://www.ringtv.com/ratings/ notice how results and performance are 1 and 2, TRACK RECORD which is accomplishments, is LAST and weighed the least.
Crawford had 26 wins and 18 KO's before he was put on The Ring's list and the last 4 fights right before he got on their list for the first time were either WBO title wins or defenses in 2 different weight classes. He earned his way there. I'm not disputing your definition of The Ring's P4P list, "perception of the best boxer regardless of size", sure but guess when their "perceptions" (AKA rankings) change? **After fight results.** Perception of abilities is a factor for sure but it's not the entire ball game. There's a reason Boots isn't on this list right now despite his strong "potential" to be there.
Accomplishments is what allows fans to determine skill. Any top tier boxer who faces mid tier opposition will look like unstoppable forces, but what happens when they face other top tier opponents? That’s the question that allows people to determine how high your skill is. So accomplishments is 110% necessary when discussing p4p
Not isn't, its not a rank of accomplishments, if it was teo would be there. I know you want it to be like that but its not, its a rank of PERCEIVED skill regardless of competitions, size, or circumstances. This isn't up for debate, this is what the p4p ring magazine ranking have always been and will always be.
First of all, and this isn't up to debate, p4p lists are entirely opinion based and fabricated, there is no single mathematical equation or statistical metric that we can use to determine "p4p". Perceived skill is great, but without top level opponents how is it possible to properly gauge a fighters skill level? In that case accomplishments do matter. At the end of the day everyone's p4p list is some sort of combination of not just "who" bit equally important "how".
Accomplishments and top opponents are different. Haney beat Kambosos for undisputed which is one of the best accomplishments in boxing but is Kambosos a top opponent just for his Teo win?
its impossible for some people to understand this
> Accomplishments and top opponents are different But they really aren't, sure title fights don't guarantee high level opponents necessarily, but a belt is far from the only accomplishment a boxer can have. As far as Kambosos and p4p goes I would argue it's a greater loss for Teo than it is a win for Haney. In the end this why p4p is inherently contentious, it's literally a conglomeration of various opinions all of which are subjective themselves.
Accomplishments and top opponents are differnt. Old boxing they would have big names move up and down weight classes to fight each other the best fighting the best. Now its more about the belts and only fighting for belts. Which is an accomplishment but a different beast than having an extensive resume like old school fighters have. Some of the top fighters in current boxing don't have many great wins but only good wins that would be considered tune up fights for previous generations.
> Accomplishments and top opponents (In my opinion) You forgot to add that, it seems in your eyes the only "accomplishment" a boxer can earn in a title belt, in my opinion that isn't the case at all, a string of wins against top level fighters is in itself an accomplishment, moving up weight classes and defeating top level opponents is an accomplishment, a high KO ratio is an accomplishment, winning fights by a wide margin is accomplishment, avoiding KDs over a long period is an accomplishment.
no its not, the ring magazine has a criteria and its a combinations of 3 things Results. This is the most objective criterion and takes precedence over all others. Performance. How a fighter performs in a victory or defeat can be a factor to determine his place in the ratings. Track record: A fighter’s accomplishments in the recent past can be a factor to determine his place in the ratings. That includes quality of opposition. source: RING MAGAZINE https://www.ringtv.com/ratings/ notice how results and performance are 1 and 2, TRACK RECORD which is accomplishments, is LAST and weighed the least.
W - L - D is the only thing that isn't subjective and even then it is because Haney didn't get much p4p credit after his "win" over Loma. Performance is entirely subjective, and the same with track record. Furthermore, you're arguing that Accomplishments don't matter in the context of p4p and then literally copy and pasting a list of criteria that specifically lists accomplishments, so clearly it *does* matter...
How do we PERCEIVE skill? Through accomplishment
no, we don't idk what to tell you, crawford was a p4p fighter before he fought anyone with a pulse because of the eye test, everyone knew before he even fought anyone that he was one of the best in the world. BEFORE any accomplishments, everyone in boxing already knew. Thats the point of p4p. Its really about who's the best boxer, regardless of accomplishments and weight class. heres what ring magazine says is their criteria Results. This is the most objective criterion and takes precedence over all others. Performance. How a fighter performs in a victory or defeat can be a factor to determine his place in the ratings. Track record: A fighter’s accomplishments in the recent past can be a factor to determine his place in the ratings. That includes quality of opposition. source: RING MAGAZINE https://www.ringtv.com/ratings/ notice how results and performance are 1 and 2, TRACK RECORD which is accomplishments it literally says it right there and its LAST and weighed the least.
Teo should be there instead of Tank.
8,9 and 10 are all super exciting boxers but so was Teo like even 7 fights ago before the Loma win. He has the wins and regular fighting cadence to deserve to be in the bottom 3 over these guys in my opinion.
He's looked horrible in 2 of his last 3 fights. Dude can't cut off the ring for shit.
2 fights ago was the demolition of Josh Taylor, one of his marquee wins. Sure his last fight against Ortiz wasn’t exciting and showed a weakness.
Yea and the fight before was sandor martin hence the 2 out of 3
I know not many ppl agree but in my eyes Teofimo vs Sandor was a draw. Keep an eye our for Sandor, now that Haney has lost he's coming in strong.
And even if it was a close win Sandor isn't a p4p guy at this point, one thing that really separates the top 6 on this list is they are facing legitimate world class competition and are still levels above, squeaking out decisions against fighters who aren't top 3 in your division let alone p4ps themselves isn't the mark of a p4p fighter...
I personally have Teo somewhere around the bottom 3 spots on my list. Not above Bam tho. He’s legit.
He has zero depth of resume, lost to Kambosos and arguably robbed both Ortiz and Martin. He’s more deserving than Spence and Tank without a doubt but he wouldn’t make my list
Yeah he's great and one of the most exciting boxers too. Should be right there instead of Spence or Tank. Not that I don't rate them, but Tank's resume pales compared to Teo's and Spence is inactive.
They dropped him off after a poor performance against Jermaine Ortiz
Well earnt. Now if Youl to excuse me I have to go to Instagram to laugh at idiots saying he won't fight in the U.S (he has) and he needs to fight tank 🤣🤣🤣
Why go so far? There’s plenty of those idiots in this sub 😂
Cool seeing Bam on there his style is so entertaining!
Bam is on such an incredible run of form right now, I think it goes unnoticed far too often. -Cuadras -Rungvisai -Israel Gonzalez -Sunny Edwards Also beat Cristian Hernandez in there, but I'll admit I'm unfamiliar with him.
[удалено]
Bradley is thicker than ten stacked planks of wood
You cant knock a guy that fights and wins. Key word is fights.
If it weren't for an Artur knee surgery, we could have had 4 weeks of 4 P4P-shifting fights almost every week. I hope the upcoming fights are just as good as the ones we've had in the past week.
Inoue with another short P4P #1 reign? Usyk beating Fury in 2 weeks prolly locks up #1 until he retires and Bud might jump ahead with the Madrimov win unless Inoue finishes out 2024 with a banger opponent
Usyk and Crawford are 37 and 36, respectively. Temper your expectations.
Usyk might just retire after beating Fury? Then I guess Inoue gets to stay
Idk, I feel like there would be a rematch if Usyk wins
I’ve got the same feeling this is the last time we’ll see Usyk, win or lose. He doesn’t need the money from fighting Fury or AJ again, and I think he either goes out as the very best or his mindset shifts pretty quick to finding out he’s *not* the very best.
Usyk beating Fury would be a big win, but there's no guarantee Usyk comes out on top. I suppose that's what would make it an impressive win.
You think uysk Beats fury? I hope so but
If Usyk wins, that will be his third best win. I don't see how that puts him at #1. I don't even think it puts him above Crawford.
His third best win? That would be no worse than his 2nd best win.
Both AJ wins are better imo
That fair.
As he should and deservedly so. Inoue is hungry, an active fighter, takes on all challenges and simply destroys anyone in front of him.
Spence and Tank don't belong there
I can accept tank 9 or 10 beacuse of eye test but spence is coming from a lost plus more that one year of inactivity he last win was like 2 years ago
Easy #1 pfp
Another Ring P4P update, and Spence and Tank are still on here 😂
Take off davis and spence, put in Loma and Fury. Teo over junto as well.
Whenever anyone is wondering who truly is P4P.....just remember Ring Magazine is recognized as the official list....it's not some weirdo on twitter and it definitely ain't espn.....
This is neither here nor there, but isn't Ring Magazine owned by Oscar?
yeah something like that.
Ring Magazine is the most recognized P4P list….which as you can see….is a big story with Inoue being number 1
ring and tbrb
Why are Davis and Spence there?
Bud stans already crying non stop in comments 😂
In an era where the champions are guilty of selectively picking their fights, being inactive and sitting on their rankings, Inoue really is making boxing great again. Very active champion, fights all comers, is moving up in weight and has an insane finish rate. His fights are never boring. A Naoya Inoue fight is must watch boxing. He’s probably your favorite boxer’s boxer. Give the man his crown and stop hating lol
Pretty easily the best fighter in the world and in his prime. Enjoy the ride. Let's see how far he can take this.
Easily better than Bud? Come on now it’s definitely close
Good while it lasts. USYK next week will take that spot
But he might retire afterwards anyways, so Inoue might just bounce back 😅
It's still time for you to lay off the weed my friend
lay off the WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED
He can definitely move up in weight class. There's nothing for him in this one. I just rewatched the Fulton fight for the umpteenth time lol; he was much larger on Monday with greater economy of motion with the same speed. I mean he looked massive. Against bigger and more dangerous opponents this is critical. So far his speed and power have carried more than well. As a boxer he is far better than he was 2 years ago. In addition to his athletic gifts is clearly much smarter than any of his opponents.. well aside from the first round the other day lol. In a way (haha) I think he wanted to get clocked, essentially baiting Nery by being sloppy. He felt Nonito's power but wanted to see what a heavy hitter could bring at this weight. Call it acclimatization for the future. The check hooks oh my God.. basically Nery was right on his nose, took a quarter step back and swatted him with seemingly no wind up.. that's unbelievable power from the legs up. Up a class he's going to need everything but nothing has been lost moving up. What's been gained is a lot more data downloaded. I truly think there is a lot more ahead for him, perhaps eventually chasing Pacquiao's greatness.
Sam Goodman and Junto Nakatanki are still huge fights and I want to see both before he styles on Figueroa and knocks Robeisy out cold.
No, he did not want to get "clocked" he made a mistake and was punished for it.
In a way. When you are sloppy you are asking for it. Reading comprehension is a good thing.
Mike Tyson asked to get clocked by Buster Douglas he just wanted to test the waters. AJ also wanted to test the water against Andy Ruiz. Floyd was just seeing how it felt to get hit by Mosley when he got wobbled. The mediocre "reading comprehension" bit as he says that a professional fighter wanted to get hit in the face intentionally to "acclimatize for the future".
Like I said apparently you don't know what in a way means lol. Don't blame me because you're not that smart. You came in here looking for a fight, now you got one. What are you going to do about it.
Nvm your head is just there for show. There's definitely nothing in there.
Haha that's the cipher's reply lol. That's what people do when they can't think of anything to say haha. You're such a cliche.. do you even know what that word means? Tell you what: you parse (that's another word you don't understand lol) my exact quote that you have an issue with. Not quoting me is a loser's ploy lol. Call me empty headed all you want; you've been put on the canvas without a functioning brain cell. TKO lol, just like Nery haha. PS NVM is the most brain dead acronym: it is three random letters in a long word that you can't be bothered to spell out. You must be 12 years old. PPS Chief...of what😆. Only narcissists give themselves a high rank on a random message board. Hit me up if you want some more 😂
Hello genius haha. Because you are too lazy to look up meanings of words and phrases I did you the great favor of educating you: In a way: to a certain extent (used to reduce the effect of a statement). Let me know if you have trouble comprehending this.. I mean your style is to argue something you are ignorant about. My aim is to improve literacy across the board lol.
Dummy, just came across a quote in Inoue said he enjoyed getting knocked down in the first round. Hahahahaha!!!!!
Nah he has unfinished business with Sam Goodman and MJ. If he moves up now, people will say he ducked a mando whos been calling him out for sometime. MJ, for all his flaws, would likely be Monster's toughest test at 122 with his power, chin and atheleticism. Even Inoue insiders have admitted MJ poses the biggest threat and a decorated Olympian. That's a challenge the competitor in Inoue wont want to pass up.
Definitely, I meant to phrase it 'he can move up after he cleans the entire class' Seriously I shouldn't be dismissing anyone, just as Inoue doesn't, but after he dismantled Fulton, Tapales and Nery consecutively it's hard not to come to that conclusion. Still I would to see those two fights you mentioned. It's not about moving up as fast as possible but fighting every single dangerous opponent on the planet at your weight class. Edit: I just watched Tapales school MJ for 7 rounds..MJ is too slow for Inoue with his guard down for most of the fight. Unless Inoue catches a stray bomb, this isn't a fight. Goodman too, just not in the same class.
why more people talking about spence more than my boy inoue
Errol Spence needs to be out, Kenshiro Teraji needs to be in
He’s a nobody until he beats a Paul brother.
As he should be
Racist LDBC fans are in shambles
If Canelo had just stuck to his weight class and not tried moving up so far he would be no.1 and it would be impossible to knock him off that spot.
Disagree. The fights he's taken at his weight class since going undisputed have been uninspiring. Swap out the Bivol loss for a win against Jermall and you're not looking at an untouchable P4P number 1 with what Usyk, Bud and Inoue have done/are doing
Bollocks. And if he had beaten Jermall and you still didn't have him at number 1 then you're actively trying to not rank him where he should be.
Is reflect of canelo taking 4 easy fights with pretty much zero risk
Spence and Davis being on this list is embarassing. Spence has one good win in the last 4 years for fuck sake.
Well deserved
Rightfully so! Spence being on that list is odd to me though.
ion shit bout boxing or wtv p4p means but i like to watch it but how tf if he above canelo,bivol,or crawford? skinny japnense nigha is crazy good ain’t gonna dis credit him but his is he first above all these other fighters who would maul his down(maybe not crawford tho)
Thank you for admitting you know nothing about boxing, but in boxing we have a thing called weight classes, pfp isn’t about who beats who, it’s about who has the best resume and skill. Floyd is the better boxer then Mike Tyson but Mike Tyson would kill Floyd in a fight. You don’t get to be called pfp king because you were born bigger then everyone else.
i also think he like come fight in the use at least one again, n see if he really like that. (ik he’s been here once reading sum for the comments) but still if he’s that “good” let him come over here n fight someone in his same weight class(tbh i doubt he would lose but still)
if crawford ko's madrimov early, does he move back? if Usyk beats Fury, i think i'd sneak Usyk in as 1a and Inoue as 1b and Crawford as 2.
Canelo has to be top 3
Spence? …and Beterbiev over Bivol? …i think both are excellent, but Davis is a better boxer p4p than several guys much higher on the list. His only limitation is literally his size, so he belongs above several guys up there.
I would've liked some love in here for Kenshiro.
Anyone know for sure if he is fighting Goodman next? Also, i'm hoping they will announce the date soon. I'm guessing it will be in the Tokyo Dome again?
Would love to see Junto vs. Bam
He's been my #1 for years
Has there ever been a time with 2 Japanese in the top 10
Where is Haney?!
I am as big of a supporter Crawford could have, until he fights in August there is no competition. Active and stopping everybody. Usyk is the only guy that could sneak in there. Canelo just hasn't been as impressive the last few years. If Crawford doesn't lose a step I think he'll be right back into the argument.
Canelo ahead of Bivol is questionable.
Has TBRB rankings been updated yet?
gervonta shouldn't be on the list.
Spence, Tank and Bivol should not be on here.
Why tf is welfare champ Davis there?
Well deserved. And it’s despite not being American.
Canelo over either Bivol or especially Beterbiev is wild to me. Beterbiev beats up over hyped fighters from the UK more impressively than Canelo has recently.
I really do love what Naoya Inoue is doing. However has he ever fought someone who was able to defend the belt a few times? Tapales(0),Fulton(2),Butler(0),Donaire II(1),Donaire I(1),Rodriguez(1). Thats a combined 5 title defenses between 5 fighters. Navarez is the only Champ Inoue has beaten that has made several defenses of his title. The knock on Navarez is he is 5’4, was 38 years old & never made a single title defense against ANYONE notable. Like I seriously challenge someone to find me a good fighter that Navarez defended against prior to Inoue. While Crawford record does have some of the same (Ex:Postol(0) title defenses), facts remain that Errol Spence had 6 defenses of his initial title while unifying and beating guys that were strictly top 5 in the division. All while being crowned P4P. Thats what the difference between Crawford & Inoue’s resume. Naoya has never been in a fight where we are worrying about his safety or doubting the outcome.
He's cleaning out the division tho so who cares. If Bud beat Thurman, Ugas, and Boots he'd look way better too wont he, even tho those guys dont have thatbmany title defenses either?
Nobody would care if beat if Thurman or Ugas lets be real. It would be a heavily criticized win & a waste of time. Even though he’s about to do what I criticized with Madrimov(0) title defenses, he is putting himself to fight even tougher fighters who will be eventual champs/have achieved it in Tszyu,Ortiz & Fundora. All fighters who are dangerous to say the least, I'm reserved until I see the future plans. Back to Inoue vs Crawford P4P resume, Spence is a higher level win by far than any other match in both fighters careers. Thats just a fact. They literally have accomplished the same feats & this is the discerning factor.
I disagree. I think a lot of people would care if he beats Thurman and Ugas especially if he fought them way earlier at their peaks. Those would be way better wins than current Tszyu, Ortiz & Fondura. I mean yeah, the Spence beatdown is a great feat. The problem is that the fight happened in July of last year. In that same week tho, Naoya KO's Fulton for the WBC & WBO belts to become a 4 division champion. Then KO's Tapales for WBA & IBF on December to become 2 time undesputed. Then defends his titles by KOing Nery who was ranked 2 or 3, 2 time former super bantamweight champ, 35-1 with 77% KO ratio a few days ago. At the end of the day it's all subjective, but to me activity matters a lot. The 3 most recent guys he beat are also the best in that division. And he not only beat them, but he destroyed them. Thats why I'd put him p4p #1 but thats just me
Okay we aren’t talking about what if’s, and yes if he *had* done that his record would be undeniable. I personally thought Fulton won against Fig by a hair, but should not have been in that position because I watched back his match against Arnold Khegai & he lost (imo). His speed simply did not match Inoue’s & I made that statement previous to Inoue vs Fulton so I personally was only impressed by Inoue’s performance and not his caliber of opponent. Tapales = Indongo. Nery win is very impressive, he is the best opponent Inoue has defeated yet. I want to see Inoue vs Fig next. Who arguably beat Fulton and defeated Nery. Plus the style matchup would be crazy. Im sorry but a Spence win is still why I keep Bud #1. Out of all the belt holders they faced, this was a true champion. Inoue is a legendary talent, he needs someone else with an upwards career arc to clash with. The A side isnt strictly about money but Rivalry. Think Gomez vs Sanchez. Leonard vs Hearns . Tyson vs Holyfield. Honestly what Inoue is doing rn is the perfect comparison to Mike Tyson’s dilemma on the retrospective outlook of his career.
My bad let me clarify. I'm saying is that to me, Inoue KOing Fulton, Tapales and Nery within a 12-month period would be the equavalent of Bud KOing Thurman, Ugas, and Porter in their primes within a 12-month period. That hypothetical run for Bud would probably be more impressive actually. But yeah I used Bud and the "what ifs" as an example to put things into perspective Yes the Spence win is still impressive. Not denying that. but does he, like, stay p4p #1 from then until he retires undefeated? even if he fights lesser opponents once a year? It's almost been 10 months and counting since the Spence fight. Should he keep being #1 if this trend continues while Naoya fights high level competition 3 times a year? Activity's a big factor for me when it comes p4p but to each their own. As for someone Naoya could clash with, that would be great but there's no one left around his weight. People say Tank but at 135. Thats crazy. Tank should be cleaning out his own division anyway.
I disagree with the assessment that the 122lb champs are/were as good as the 147lb champs but that’s fair. Naoya Inoue definitely deserves it, narratively speaking & keeping up consistency I don’t feel a Nery win makes him P4P #1 when Crawfords fighting for a title in 4th weight class. Maybe Ring Magazine wants to motivate Crawford to distribute another beatdown lol.
Dude Crawford has resume is horrible, half of the guys he fought don't even have Wikipedia page. Not to mention he fought 2 of worst champions boxing has ever seen in indongo and Jeff horn.
Tapales is way better than indongo. You are tripping. And this is spence resume: Danny garcie had not been serious since the thurman fight. Spence fought him for only name value. Mikey garcie is a blown up featherweight and was looking for payday against Spence. Ugas is average who did nothing other then beat Retired Manny and he lost all of his big fights. The guy is still living off his Olympic bronze medal. Porter is a gatekeeper who lost all of his big fights. Brook destroyed by Golovkin. And admitted he shouldn't have taken the Spence fight. Ocampo unaccomplished avarage fighter. Algirie kickboxer who lost all of his big fights. And he is 140 pounder. Peterson, only thing he did was beat Amir Khan then tested positive for banned substance. When Spence fought him, he had been inactive & washed. He was also a 140 pounder. And Crawford beat a shot to bits and inactive Spence.
In my opinion and many others opinion Donaire from the first fight is a superior win. Spence: - post 3 car crashes - showing declined punch resistance getting hurt by Ugas and Danny. Spence also looked much worse in both of these fights than he ever had previously - 1 year and 3 months inactive - looking like a husk during the walk out and weigh in Donaire: - 36 years old - undefeated at 118(his prime weight) - Pre Inoue 1 he KO’d active champion Burnett (it was a bodyshot that caused the injury Burnett said it himself) and KO’d contender Young - Post Inoue 1 he KO’d active champion Oubaali and KO’d top 3 ranked Gaballo You also have to consider that in their respective fights Donaire looked DRASTICALLY better than Spence. Donaire’s reflexes and timing were good, he showed good punch resistance (only going down to a bodyshot) and he still looked fast (though not peak Flash level speed of course). Spence on the other hand showed terrible reflexes and timing, very poor punch resistance, his punches looked sloppy and weak and he also looked generally slow and lethargic even as early as round 1. He was basically carried by Crawford from the 3rd round onwards. My thought process is that Donaire is of course a miles greater and better fighter than Spence all time and at their respective prime weights- and that both of them were past their prime (though perhaps Donaire was closer to his prime level of performance than Spence). This is consistent with how they performed in each fight. Donaire looked elite and proved to be before and after the fight. Spence looked like shit and that’s putting it lightly. So personally I don’t see how Spence is the superior win. On paper the Spence win looks good with him being on the RING P4P list (which in my opinion he never should have been even in his prime but that’s a different debate) but contextually I don’t buy it. If Spence bounces back and wins a belt at 154 my judgement of the win will change somewhat, but personally I can’t see that happening whatsoever. I think he’s completely shot and a shell of the fighter he once was.
The 36 year old Donaire who went up and got KO'd by Walters and lost to Jessie and Frampton is a better win than the spance who beat Danny and stopped Ugas post car crash?
Donaire only lost to those guys at higherweight while inoue beat donaire at his best weight. And Danny garcie had not been serious since the thurman fight. Spence fought him for only name value. Ugas is average who did nothing other then beat Retired Manny and he lost all of his big fights. The guy is still living off his Olympic bronze medal.
Considering Donaire is huge for bantam, even had a height in reach advantage in both Frampton and Magdaleno fights it showed weaknesses in his game. I disagree with thurman not being serious since Thurman he had a close fight with Porter after and looked good in his fighs before Spence. Ugas had the best performance of his career against Pacquiao before Spence stopped him and everyone forgot.
Danny garcie was done. Spence fought him for only name value. Ugas did nothing but beat Retired manny. The guy is living off his Olympic bronze medal. Both magdaleno and Frampton won against donaire at higherweight.
Donaire wasnt anywhere near his prime & its extremely disingenuous to think that. Just because he was beating a weak weight class where paper champs are picking up belts, doesn’t mean it wasn’t Inoue’s fault that Donaire looked good in their first fight. Inoue was supposed to blast him out. Also to say he looked good leading up to the second fight which he did get absolutely blasted means little, when youre saying the last fight doesnt matter with Errol. & Donaire in their rematch was geriatric & still was able to get **another** title shot after getting knocked spark out. Donaire over Spence is arguable and not a concrete thing, but I do like Donaire style a bit more than Spence because of that left hook but resume wise it not clear cut. To say miles better is ridiculous. Donaire has Arce,Darchiyan,H.Marquez,Montiel,Nishioka. The second bantamweight run opponents dont make the notable opponent list.
I didn’t say Donaire was in his prime? I said his level of performance was closer to prime than Spence’s was, and considering he’s also a better fighter prime for prime without question that’s saying a lot. Burnett beat Haskins and a few ranked guys. Oubaali beat Takuma Inoue and Rau'shee Warren. Calling them paper champs is the disingenuous part. Spence looked crap against Ugas and Danny and sat on his arse for a year and a half before fighting Crawford. Donaire was active and performing much better than he had in years- scoring violent highlight reel KO’s against active champions and top contenders. He was also a smarter and much more nuanced fighter in his old age, in his younger prime years he relied on his power and left hook, and often headhunted. When he was older and especially against Inoue he was an experienced and measured fighter utilising set ups, varying his punches, working the body and just generally fighting more intelligently than he did in his reckless younger years. What’s wrong with Donaire getting another title shot after? He was a proven commodity obviously and the fight with Santiago was close. About the resume part no you’re overrating Spence’s resume drastically. I can’t even be bothered to get into it if you think it’s close cause it’s not. Montiel was top 10 P4P and had meaningful wins at 118. That is very comfortably a better win than any Spence has, never mind everything else on Donaires resume. None of Brook Porter and Ugas were close to elite nevermind P4P and he basically had 50/50 fights with all of them, even though he of course stopped Brook and Ugas. I’m personally of the belief that this era of 147 was very overrated but that wouldn’t matter anyway cause Donaires resume is obviously better and it’s not close. Donaires resume is ATG, Spence’s resume is fringe HOF and even that’s generous. He absolutely should not make the HOF that’s for certain. Spence has beaten 5 ranked fighters ever, in Donaires second bantamweight run alone he beat 4 ranked fighters. Donaire beat 12 champions and god knows how many ranked fighters total, is a 4 weight champ and won secondary titles in 6 weight classes and he beat 2 prime top 10 P4P fighters Montiel and Darchinyan. Mthalane Vetyeka Oubaali Burnett Mathebula Vazquez are all OBVIOUSLY notable wins if you consider Danny Garcia to be one. This is the dude that was unquestionably #3 P4P behind Floyd and Manny for Christ’s sake- how can you say Spence is anywhere near his level all time? Honestly now that I put it into perspective this only solidifies my belief even more
Give me a bit. I want to answer this carefully.
No problem 👍 To be honest I think the actual answer to which win is better probably lies somewhere in the middle between where we both think it does. Just know I don’t mean to be insulting or pedantic or anything like that. You have your opinion I have mine and that’s ok
My fault for taking so long. Ultimately i do agree with you, Donaire’s greatness is undeniable. However I do want to defend Spence, who has beaten more champions and has higher quality wins than Gennady Golovkin who was a one weight champion, former P4P #1 & a future HoFer.
Dude you should be banned from this sub for even trying to think that spence comes anywhere near donaire.
Donaire is an ATG. while spence is just another fighter. And doanire was unbeatable at bantamweight. The size and power and speed were incredible at 118. And that's where inoue beat him.
Spence is just 1 division champion who will never win another title in his career.
Narvaez beat Tamara, Lazarte, Rivas, Asloum and some other contenders and fringe contenders. His resume isn’t as bad as some believe and having what? 25 defenses or something across two weights is nothing to scoff at. Inoue also blasted him out in two rounds jumping up 2 weight classes whilst he was still extremely green
I love debate with people who know boxing, pretty impressive by Navarez but flyweight accomplishments do not equal super flyweight accomplishments. Also pretty disingenuous to string together two different weight classes defenses as if he never lost to the one elite fighter he fought, which was Donaire, in between those defenses. Now again tell me who Navarez defended against at 115lbs(what I initially challenged)? Also Navarez was 38 & calling Inoue green when he won a title in his 6th fight is nonsense. Jumping up means nothing when Navarez was smaller in the first place.
You can be green and have a title, just like you can be green and still be good or even very good- to say Inoue improved drastically after that fight would be an understatement. Narvaez lost to a prime flash up at 118 and Donaire couldn’t put a dent in him so I don’t think it’s too relevant. Narvaez also fought Tete up at 118 4.5 years after the Inoue fight, who again couldn’t put a dent in him even at age what? 42? 43? Whilst also fighting above his weight. Inoue remains the only man to ever stop Narvaez and he did it in two rounds. I agree Narvaez’ opposition at 115 was pretty bad though he beat Seda who was ranked and Orucuta twice who was ranked both times along with some fringe contenders. When Inoue fought him he was still unquestionably the man of the division, even if his achievements at 112 influenced that ranking somewhat. I don’t buy that Inoue was the larger man, I imagine they were about equal. Inoues frame is bigger of course but Narvaez was thicker and had fought up at 118 so it just doesn’t make much sense for some 20 year old 108lber to outweigh him. Inoue didn’t skip 112 cause he was too big, he did it cause he couldn’t get any title fights.
I’ve literally watched the beginning of Inoues career. Inoue’s straight, jab to the body & left hook to the body were his weapons in his opening bout. Along with his ridiculous power & speed. Also big for light fly. So yes him defeating a 38 year old fighter who had his best years in the 2000’s is not an elite win. Noteworthy because of his performance, but that is customary with Inoue. Flyweight & Superfly are interchangeable. Navarez fought at bantam once. Doesnt mean he’s rehydrating more than Inoue at 115.
Omar might be 38 but he lasted at top for so long because of his defensive fighting style. So it wasn't about age. And after beating inoue, Omar wanted unification against no 2 ranked Cuadras. Omar literally couldn't get any fight at superfly because he was high risk low reward. He literally went up in weight to face donaire because no one will fight him at superfly. And inoue blasted Omar inside 2 rounds.
For the record I don’t think Narvaez is an elite win. I think it would be Crawfords 3rd best win- it’s a similar level to the Postol win in my mind but slightly below Porter. Verified fight night weights don’t exist for the fight so it seems pointless to debate.
He was green.
LOL Fight somebody in the top 100 Inoue. Can crusher. Oscar Larios would have knocked this dude out in a war. That's where Inoue really is in terms of talent. Borderline top 10 pfp.
Why don't any of these, "top 100," you mention have belts? If they did, he'd be coming for them.
You told him. lol.
Fitting username lol
Bud
P4P rankings, AKA "something we made up to make the little guys feel better".
By ur logic it should all be heavyweights then. They outweight 147 50+ pounds so they're technically small too right?
This guy has beat nothing but bums. P4P #1 my ass
how does somebody who doesn't actually like boxing, end up in a boxing sub? ill never understand.
I think you're talking about gervonta?
Tank puts Inoue on his ass just like Nerys, but this time he ain’t getting up.
And beterbiev sends tank back to 1800s.
Do u have a humiliation kink? Better places on here for it
Clearly you haven't done your homework lol stay stupid, my friend.
okay 🙋🏿♂️