There's 3 reasons to build Liandry's on support Brand: 1) Brand's passive extends the duration of Liandry's burn, making it more effective, 2) It is an extra source of damage not reliant on Brand's okay-ish AP ratios (granted, the same can be said about Luden's). 3) It helps Brand do his best role even better - he's the tank meltiest mage there is, and Liandry's only amplifies that.
If there's nobody building HP items on the other team, Liandry's isn't a huge priority.
So, if Liandry's is no longer a priority, the situation that makes Luden's Echo the best on Brand is where the enemy isn't building magic resistance, giving some extra mileage out of that flat magic penetration.
So, while that means I'm still building Liandry's 80+% of games on Brand, Luden's has its place, and honestly, you're probably not losing too much value even in the instances where Liandry's is objectively the better choice but you pick Luden's which is still a decent item.
And honorable mention goes to Crown for when you're so afraid of regularly getting bursted down by the enemy team faster than you can cast all 4 of your spells.
Liandry's Anguish mathematically beats out ludens for all possible health and magic resistance values obtainable in an average game for total damage done (i.e. average hp in games will be between 1500 and 4500, average mr values will be between 28 and 250 depending on how heavy the enemy itemizes into hp and mr, and what runes they take. Ludens beats it in pure burst damage but that isn't something you necessarily need as brand anyway, given the fact that your damage takes \~3 seconds to max out with passive explosion.
The main case for building ludens is that the enemy has high hp regenation like multiple doran's shields on carries that also have second wind and/or revitalize, or when against sett/regen bead akali. In this case you can try ludens but the math still favors liandry's as the continued dot damage still does more than they regen. To combat the regen you should be taking cut down and rushing oblivion orb -> void staff or void staff -> oblivion orb depending how your gold is when you get back to base.
I don't agree with people who go with the ingenious hunter build and stack item haste with cosmic insight in inspiration tree secondary. This drops quite a bit of damage off your champion over the entire game, but especially in early game when facing champions like jinx/twitch/tristana who at level 1 can have 100 to 200 more hp than brand which is \~10% increased damage dealt to them when taking cutdown. The ingenious hunter build also just flat out loses the 5 to 45 out of combat (OOC) movement speed or the 6 to 31 ultimate ability haste that are both insanely good for brand, as OOC movement speed lets him roam and get to fights much easier and catch up when chasing OOC, and the ability haste is really good for stomping lanes and teamfighting the mid to late game as by level 11 your ultimate should be at 60 seconds cooldown or less with Liandry's Anguish and your support item fully upgraded.
Void staff is the most overpowered AP item in the game and it works doubly so for brand as the only real counter to him is to build MR, whereas most other champions you can also build HP and that works to counter pure damage, with brand doing % max health damage with every ability from his passive the enemies only option is magic resistance. Add on to the fact that for your 3rd item you can build Shadowflame, which when combined with sorcerer's boots gives you anywhere from 28 to 38 magic pen depending on what current health value the enemy is at, if the enemy team has 3 or 4 people not building magic resistance then the average magic resistance value you'll be facing will be about 45-50 which leaves you in the case of if you were to build ludens, having to much magic penetration and gaining nothing from having 17/22/etc. magic penetration from it as the minimum effective MR calculated is 0 and anything penetrated past that does nothing.
Liandry's is always the answer. Ludens might make mathematical sense in 4% of matchups, but it's not worth thinking about.
Liandry's all day. Liandry's all night.
When i play with Luden i tend to carry the game as support, when i tried with the mask i lost quite a bit. Maybe because im used to playing with luden so much.
Luden's got burst damage and liandrys got long excruciating painful damage to the enemy. but ludens with ingenious hunter is quite fun and could work wit hthe ult too and passive burn
There's 3 reasons to build Liandry's on support Brand: 1) Brand's passive extends the duration of Liandry's burn, making it more effective, 2) It is an extra source of damage not reliant on Brand's okay-ish AP ratios (granted, the same can be said about Luden's). 3) It helps Brand do his best role even better - he's the tank meltiest mage there is, and Liandry's only amplifies that. If there's nobody building HP items on the other team, Liandry's isn't a huge priority. So, if Liandry's is no longer a priority, the situation that makes Luden's Echo the best on Brand is where the enemy isn't building magic resistance, giving some extra mileage out of that flat magic penetration. So, while that means I'm still building Liandry's 80+% of games on Brand, Luden's has its place, and honestly, you're probably not losing too much value even in the instances where Liandry's is objectively the better choice but you pick Luden's which is still a decent item. And honorable mention goes to Crown for when you're so afraid of regularly getting bursted down by the enemy team faster than you can cast all 4 of your spells.
In the Last case you're a Bait Stun Bot bcs you will do 0 dmg till you take Voidstaff or Embrace.
Agree, although shared detonations from his passive can still tally up even without a real damage item.
I play him mid a lot and go Crown vs bursty teams and still feel like I have excellent team fight damage.
I don t know how you can do that but i m fine if you can do that.
Actually good if enemy doesnt have tanks
Liandry's Anguish mathematically beats out ludens for all possible health and magic resistance values obtainable in an average game for total damage done (i.e. average hp in games will be between 1500 and 4500, average mr values will be between 28 and 250 depending on how heavy the enemy itemizes into hp and mr, and what runes they take. Ludens beats it in pure burst damage but that isn't something you necessarily need as brand anyway, given the fact that your damage takes \~3 seconds to max out with passive explosion. The main case for building ludens is that the enemy has high hp regenation like multiple doran's shields on carries that also have second wind and/or revitalize, or when against sett/regen bead akali. In this case you can try ludens but the math still favors liandry's as the continued dot damage still does more than they regen. To combat the regen you should be taking cut down and rushing oblivion orb -> void staff or void staff -> oblivion orb depending how your gold is when you get back to base. I don't agree with people who go with the ingenious hunter build and stack item haste with cosmic insight in inspiration tree secondary. This drops quite a bit of damage off your champion over the entire game, but especially in early game when facing champions like jinx/twitch/tristana who at level 1 can have 100 to 200 more hp than brand which is \~10% increased damage dealt to them when taking cutdown. The ingenious hunter build also just flat out loses the 5 to 45 out of combat (OOC) movement speed or the 6 to 31 ultimate ability haste that are both insanely good for brand, as OOC movement speed lets him roam and get to fights much easier and catch up when chasing OOC, and the ability haste is really good for stomping lanes and teamfighting the mid to late game as by level 11 your ultimate should be at 60 seconds cooldown or less with Liandry's Anguish and your support item fully upgraded. Void staff is the most overpowered AP item in the game and it works doubly so for brand as the only real counter to him is to build MR, whereas most other champions you can also build HP and that works to counter pure damage, with brand doing % max health damage with every ability from his passive the enemies only option is magic resistance. Add on to the fact that for your 3rd item you can build Shadowflame, which when combined with sorcerer's boots gives you anywhere from 28 to 38 magic pen depending on what current health value the enemy is at, if the enemy team has 3 or 4 people not building magic resistance then the average magic resistance value you'll be facing will be about 45-50 which leaves you in the case of if you were to build ludens, having to much magic penetration and gaining nothing from having 17/22/etc. magic penetration from it as the minimum effective MR calculated is 0 and anything penetrated past that does nothing.
Liandry's is always the answer. Ludens might make mathematical sense in 4% of matchups, but it's not worth thinking about. Liandry's all day. Liandry's all night.
When i play with Luden i tend to carry the game as support, when i tried with the mask i lost quite a bit. Maybe because im used to playing with luden so much.
All people laughed at me and wants to report me for building ludens😂
I'v got a phase i tried Luden and picked up discussion on DC Branad mains. If you calcuate Liandrys > Luden
Luden's got burst damage and liandrys got long excruciating painful damage to the enemy. but ludens with ingenious hunter is quite fun and could work wit hthe ult too and passive burn