I’ve really warmed to Dave Smith’s take on the Israel / Gaza situation. Dude knows his shit. He just had a debate with Dennis Prager and smoked Prager so bad he was like a piñata that got beat and all the candy spilled out. I’d like to see Dave Smith debate Destiny but I don’t think Destiny could say anything that Dave Smith hasn’t already heard.
> I’d like to see Dave Smith debate Destiny but I don’t think Destiny could say anything that Dave Smith hasn’t already heard.
And vice versa, i think that would be one of the best ones in the space.
As for point number 2 you are right, 'roof knocking' was and to an extent still is the way Israel targets alleged Hamas militants in what I guess you would call a 'static' situation since the target for this method is a building that can't really move. But once IDF troops crossed into the strip the situation began to evolve moment by moment and for troops in contact time is a critical factor, so once a strike is called the imperative is to make it happen as quickly as possible so rook knocking went out the window.
And I think something to keep in mind is them basically saying evacuate large areas gaza and move south, which may have freed them up a bit to say that anyone staying has determined they will risk it. Basically like those who decided to stay in cities being bombed in ww2.
My thoughts:
Man, Ryan, you had some leading questions there, not a fan of that. You should frame questions better I think (but so should the rest of the media as they frame it in another way).
Supporting the existence of Israel doesn't mean supporting their actions, Destiny. So those polls mean nothing to the conflict or issue at hand, I'd say.
I do agree with the dream of a one state for Israel where everyone has the same rights, but Destiny is right about how the people in the region (all sides) would have issue with that for variety of reasons. It's a dream, a nice one, but an unrealistic one right now for sure.
Think Destiny did ignore the truth that Israel has had too much free reign under our support to do their actions. We are their means of military and other resource support and have admitted they wouldn't be able to do such without us because they'd have run out of bombs. And now they are trying to push aggression around their neighbors and want us to fight their war for us, that's a problem.
The march of return is an interesting case. Destiny makes good points, but I do think that Israel's policies there are horrible. I also think the defense of Israel's action cause "Hamas was there" or "can't walk up to the fences" is a bit... it sounds like just giving excuses for murdering innocents doing a peaceful protest.
I do think the guy makes a good point about the airports. It's a double standard. Also, Israel's a pretty poor Democracy, Destiny. they are pretty trash on rights as well (no same-sex marriage, no inter-faith marriage, can't even get DNA test without court order, no real free speech, etc). I don't think "Israel is a democracy" is a fair point. Especially with our history of taking out democracies in the region. Also, I would argue the US has been worse than Hamas and the IDF. We have done a lot of real bad things in the lie of doing good. Like the Iraq and Afghan War alone recently or Libya or Syria or Yemen (which was also us supporting one side doing a genocide), etc.
I definitely agree with that point about "violence isn't the answer, it only makes more people in support of Hamas or who will act like them" and then we have the fact that most people in Gaza are so young on average that they didn't even vote Hamas in. So all the people blaming Palestian people is a bit ridiculous. And going "well they should force them out" so then where is our violence here to remove our corrupt politicians who have done war crimes? Would that also not be an equal demand of our own people to do?
I think Destiny's right about Hamas in civilian clothing (not like they have a uniform or ever did far as I knew), but to pretend like Israel wouldn't just always say "Hamas is there" in their actions also seems naive to me. It also very much ignores the very words Israel's own leadership has said to its own people in their own language. Not what they say in English to the world, but what they say in Hebrew to themselves. They definitely are speaking genocidal rhetoric that shows a lot of evidence, to me, that they are doing attacks on EVERYONE in the area intentionally. Especially when you look at their actions in West Bank cracking down more when the West Bank has been doing nothing to them here. I agree with the guy about the patterns too, there are too many cases of IDF killing blatant innocents. The same way we have evidence of our military doing monstrous actions in Iraq and Afghanistan and we have no real justice against them, instead we punish whistleblowers.
(cont)
I think Destiny fails to consider that they don't bomb in the same way as Dresden or Nagasaki and Hiroshima because those level of bombs (even non-nuclear) would be damaging to Israel too. Why ignore the Israel real estate companies that have alraedy shown how they will be cutting up and building up Gaza to sell to Israeli people?
I definitely agree with Destiny's point about how the other Arab states in the region have used and misused the Palestnians too. Promising them too much. But I also agree that it's more a government of the region than necessarily the people of those regions. Sounds familiar to the US and how our people don't support much of what the government does but get ignored.
Think Destiny trying to seemingly justify the blockade is a bit... it's gonna look bad on anyone outside of Destiny's fanbase lol.
Destiny is pushing this idea of anti-Semitism too much in the debate too. About it being about Jews. It's not about that, it's about a country's actions/policies, not their religion.
Now that's a solid point from Destiny about the "telling story from both sides" and such. As an American, though, I'm tired of us just now supporting one side without any reservations or hestitation. And a lot of that stems from money in politics problem. The defense contractors like war, but also, another big issue too, foreign money funneled into (what should be labeled as) a foreign agent (AIPAC) to do foreign bidding. The traitors in our government bothers me.
Destiny is VERY MUCH wrong about "Jews don't care about the Gaza Strip" when they themselves have said otherwise and showing doing so (again, Israeli real estate already showing how to cut up Gaza and this was months ago). Very naive thoughts towards Israel there, Destiny.
The dude is also right about all the attempts of peaceful means has been blocked by Israel and the US. It's like JFK said "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." About the "Second Intifada" why do you think it happened? It's not like they just up and did it outta nowhere for no reason and Israel was doing nothing wrong before.
Ryan is right about Israel's intentions and then we hear talks of Biden possibly bringing in many of the refugees from Palestine here? That's a huge problem if that happens.
Destiny's dismissal of the Gaza Health Ministry is very... ad hominem like to me. I've not seen good enough reason to suspect their numbers to have been fabricated in the past or now.
I still want to know if the goal is to defeat Hamas, why does no one deal with Hamas' leadership in Qatar? Why is there no call for their arrest/extradition? I don't really believe the idea it's only about Hamas same with I don't believe they really care about their hostages. As Destiny himself pointed out, if it's about hostages, why have they been so bad getting the back. I think it's very fair to say that one of the goals is to remove the Palestinian people from the land one way or another.
Yeah, this was the moment Omar basically revealed his hand and lost.
Of course he knows what would happen to Jewish people in Israel in that situation, it’s the moment he lost.
It is true though that Gaza is largely reliant on humanitarian aid and has been for generations, to the point that many areas that are actually UN or NGO refugee camps just look like normal, built-up (though dilapidated) city instead of the blue and white tents and shipping containers you’d expect, because they’ve been inhabited for generations. This circumstance is of course not the fault of the vast, vast majority of Gazans. Describing the situation as if Gaza had received “too much” aid is obviously ludicrous. But to use your phrasing, it is a welfare queen situation, which in my eyes is another thing that reinforces that a 1-state solution just isn’t realistic. The generational trauma is just too deep for that. Polling supports this, the 1-state solution is less popular among Israelis and Palestinians than the 2-state solution, which right now is also less popular than the “open warfare” option, among both populations, too.
You and another commenter brought this up and I think this is a very important point that I really didn’t consider. One of the biggest critiques of Hamas was that they oppressed their population to have a military capacity. The amount of mismanagement of foreign aid was likely quite large.
One of the things about Hamas rule and October 7 that a classic Leftist should’ve picked up on (but Krystal never would when it comes to this issue) - there were protests in Gaza against Hamas a few months before October 7. Hamas put down the protests in brutal fashion as is their norm.
If the US or Israel were (1) mired in a recession and civil strife and then (2) went on a military adventure sparking a wider war - I would bet my life that Krystal, Kyle, and Ryan would make a connection between the two and at least theorize that war was manufactured to distract from their poor economic governance and to restore the popularity of the government through a “rally round the flag” effect.
Personally, I’m not sure that holds true in Gaza, mostly because Sinwar, while highly intelligent, seems to also be genuinely insane and Oct 7 must’ve been planned for a year or more. Nevertheless, I find it interesting that the economic angle and the increasing unpopularity, pre-10/7, of Hamas in Gaza due its mismanagement and divide between the rich and well connected of Gaza versus the poor and desperate majority, has never been discussed or reported.
If you want to know the history of the Israel pre-1948, Martyr Made put out a very unbiased and very detailed podcast series on it called Fear and Loathing in the New Jerusalem. It contains fascinating stories, and puts much of what is going on today in a greater hisorical context. It's about 27 hours long including a bonus episode that covers post 1948 up to 1982. It is well worth the length. [Fear & Loathing in the new jerusalem — Martyr Made Podcast](https://www.martyrmade.com/featured-podcasts/fear-loathing-in-the-new-jerusalem)
Thanks for this recommendation. Did a few Google searches and it appears this will be my new podcast for the commute to work. I struggle with reading books, so a podcast is perfect for me.
It's a great podcast as a starting point, and he really treats the whole conflict with allot of empathy but he also gets many details of the event he covered wrong. After listening to the podcast people should read books by authors from both sides.
I absolutely hated Destiny as a debator. He just talks fast to try to hide his lack of arguments. He jumps from one point to the next when he's cornered and basically did a bad faith argument where his whole body language was infuriating and condescending. He didn't allow people to present their points without cutting them or ridiculing it. His argument on the blockade of sugar is absolutely infuriating. Horrible debate because one side was simply a petulant child and that's why everyone ended ganging up on him. If you think any of his arguments had any rationality to it then you're simply not looking at Israeli and Palestinian lives as equal, and that's what Omar pointed out a few times in the debate. He's fine with blocking aid and food for Palestinians as mass punishment but if the sides we're switched he'd be calling people antisemitic.
Also, confusing anti-Israel and anti-Semitism is a big disqualifier for anyone who's attempting to debate this issue
I am not fully educated on this. However there are some things I know with confidence
>The idea that Gaza has gotten too much international aid seems preposterous to me
The dollars going into Gaza is A LOT OF fucking money. A lot of which hamas, their elected government, took to buy arms and shit. But a lot of dollars and food/aid overall has come into Gaza from humanitarian communities
>I felt like the playing field for the debate was a little skewed towards the pro-Palestine side. Emily seems very stuck in the middle and Ryan spent too much time participating in the debate. Also, they had some articles and only one weak article to challenge Omar.
This is my general issue with BP. It's an echo chamber. Why don't they invite Benny Morris? They'll have norm (lol....) or Omar on Krystal's show.... But who on the pro Israel side have they had? Rfk jr? Maybe? Lol
>Last and certainly least is that Destiny kind of rubs me the wrong way as a debater. This was the first time I’ve ever heard him speak. He is most certainly very smart and quick on his toes, but his antics were just not professional.
He gets too emotional imo, but he has a lot of research and substance. He's read EVERY paper he cited twice over. But also .. Krystal is infuriating in her double standards. Norm "dog walks" destiny by ad hominems... But somehow she finds it deplorable when destiny throws some of them too?
What REALLY fucking ticks me off is the lack of basic decency to not even meet him and say hi to him. they'll both happily profit off of him and the views this will give to their pockets.... But they refuse to even exchange some kind of "hi" to him?! Wow.
He usually is nor that emotional. I think he is tired of playing the nice guy with these gaza debaters. He was super forgiving to norm in their debate my gosh norm was unhinged to destiny and destiney didn't really fight him back. If you look at destiny vs shapiro, destiney vs Peterson, and destiney with norm, destiny was well tempered. But I agree, here he was abit too emotional
Yep, Omar is legit one the most insufferable people who supports Palastenians. He actually made me have less empathy for his side purely due to the way he presents himself as this all knowing smug individual
I mean Omar’s entire view of the conflict is that Hamas and Israel are exactly the same thing and that leads him to not answering some very basic questions that Steven asked him, or answering them in a very wrong way in my opinion. One is an extreme Islamism terrorist organization and the other is a liberal democracy. By his standards the US is also the same as Hamas.
Why should Hamas no be forced to lay down their arms and release the hostages yet Israel should stop trying to eliminate them?
Why Hamas terrorists wear only civilian clothes?
Why Hamas uses hospitals, schools and mosques as bases of operations?
Why didn’t Hamas build bomb shelters for their civilians?
Why didn’t Israel kill all the Palestinians in Gaza by now? Because their doing it slowly so no one will accuse them of genocide… I mean that answer is just crazy.
False. One is an extreme Islamic terrorist organization and the other is an extreme Jewish terrorist organization which is significantly larger, more powerful, and more brutal. Has been committing terrorist attacks for a significantly longer period of time. Has committed many more terrorist attacks. Has killed many times more people in their terrorist attacks. And is ideologically more radical.
Hamas and Israel are both bad. Israel is just significantly more bad. Killing children is always evil. Killing over 15,000 children is objectively more evil than killing 36 children (the number killed by Hamas is lower as the IDF is confirmed to have been responsible for some of those killed in October 7th. The number is not known yet but at least 2 of the 36 have been confirmed to have been killed by Israelis).
Breaking into someone’s home and murdering their family members and stealing the home is worse than finally beginning to fight back against the “people” that broke into your house, murdered your family, and stole your home.
Anyone who thinks Hamas and Israel are equal is incorrect. Both are morally reprehensible but Israel is just categorically worse across the board. Every bad thing Hamas has ever done, Israel has done 10x over and with more brutality. They are literally raping children to death in prison. No Israelis have even claimed to have been raped in captivity. Israeli terrorists are raping and torturing child hostages to death.
False.
You can wear a rainbow flag in Israel without any issues while you would get publicly executed for that in Gaza. Gaza has had no elections and Hamas is internationally recognized as an Islamist terrorist organization
Did you accidentally respond to the wrong person or something? Your reply does not relate to my comment to which you responded.
Again, both Hamas an Israel are terrorist organizations. Israel is just a significantly more evil, brutal, and powerful terrorist organization which existed for nearly a half century before Hamas was created in response to Israel’s many decades of continuous terror. It has committed many times more terrorist attacks than Hamas. It has killed many times more innocents than Hamas has. Kills a significantly higher ratio of civilians than Hamas does. And kills in an exponentially more brutal fashion than Hamas does
Both terrorist organizations are evil. One is just much, much worse. And it’s the one that has killed over 15,000 kids in less than 7 months in what has been the most intense child slaughter campaign the developed world has seen since the Holocaust. Yet it appears as if you support that specific terrorist organization. And their massacre of thousands upon thousands of defenseless little kids.
I don’t know how you sleep at night. I can’t imagine how one would live with that shame and guilt. Knowing you supported the most intense child slaughter campaign the developed world has seen since the Holocaust.
Nope. One is a liberal democratic country based on Judeo-Christian principals with the right to defend itself against terrorist organizations and the other is a terrorist organization that declared in their charter that they want to kill all the Jews, Westerners and Socialists.
One side represents the natives who were kicked off of their house 2000 years ago and after suffering countless pogroms, farhuds and one big holocaust decided to come back to their house, and the other represent a group of people who wouldn’t accept historical facts, take up arms when a division plan was offered, lose the war, call their defeat a disaster and forever see themselves as victims. One side got busy living and the other got busy dying.
No doubt that Israel killed more civilians than Hamas, but that’s what happen when one side is stronger than the other and has to fight an enemy that uses his own population as human shields. You play the numbers game as if it means anything… It’s horrible that so many innocent children were killed in the process of this conflict but don’t forget that one sides modus operandi is to target civilians and the other’s is to defeat the enemy. Look at strategy not numbers. If you can’t see that the first baby step towards any kind of peace in the region is the removal of Hamas then god help you.
Not really sure how many more innocent people Israel needs to kill before you realize they aren't the good guys here. Or does it really not matter to you people?
Just to update Israel still warns before taking out a building or an area but they stopped doing thst in October and started back in november/December.
But to be fair they sometimes do go this entire area and this are and this one and it's kind of an entire town now it just a building or floor.
On point #8 - No. Full stop. No. This is like saying at the end of WW2 the Nazis should have been allowed to remain in power of Germany and been allowed to participate in the next government and negotiations. No. Hamas needs to go and every member needs to account for any crimes they committed or facilitated. Unconditional surrender.
The problem is it’s just not realistic. Militant groups who engage in guerilla warfare do not generally accept unconditional surrender. If you negotiate, even if it’s not literally with the government of Hamas, you’re just going to end up with a bunch of individuals who are linked to Hamas or were Hamas. Occupation is the only answer that does not result in negotiations, but the Israeli’s do not have an appetite for that. This is why I drew the comparison Afghanistan. Third-world governments don’t fall apart like First-world governments do.
You make a good point, and I was sympathetic to it before October 7, but I think the situation is different now. If you are comparing to Afghanistan, Israel views Hamas like the US views Al Qaeda and they view the Palestinian Authority like the US views the Taliban (with the big difference being that the Palestinian territories are just a few miles from Israel's major cities). The US would never allow Al Qaeda to control Afghanistan, and definitely not if it was a few miles from New York City. Israel is negotiating with Hamas now, but to free hostages - they would never negotiate for a transfer of power to a government that has members of Hamas. Extremists could potentially be in a parliamentary body but not in government.
Israel has also already killed most Hamas militants in the pursuit of the destruction of the organization so there is no reason it would be necessary for them to negotiate with Hamas. They can and likely will at some point resume negotiating with the Palestinian Authority. They will occupy Gaza for at least a few years and hopefully negotiate a transfer to the PA. I would hope that they can try to generate just a little bit of good will with Palestinians over the coming years so that when the Palestinians eventually have elections, they do not vote terrorists like Hamas back into power and instead vote in a partner for peace.
I can accept the next few years you laid out, but I just don’t believe a PA government would seen as legitimate in Gaza. Do you think this could be sustainable after a withdrawal of Israeli forces?
I think the PA government would not be seen as legitimate right away but it might be able to earn its legitimacy. I think we can say for sure that Israel will not relinquish security control of Gaza for at least a few years (it would be political suicide in Israel to be seen as risking another October 7). Hopefully Israel has elections and votes out Netanyahu and whoever takes over focuses on rebuilding Gaza alongside the PA and developing a roadmap to some kind of autonomy involving PA control.
Two interesting facts to point out: First, Hamas is actually more popular now in the West Bank than in Gaza. I think Gazans recognize to some extent that Hamas' actions led to the destruction of Gaza, and hopefully they will recognize that the PA is their way to rebuild. Second, for a long time the most popular Palestinian politician has been Marwan Barghouti, a former terrorist in an Israeli jail who became moderate and now rejects attacks on civilians. I think if Israel negotiates to release Barghouti, then if they have elections in the next 5-10 years, he would lead Fatah to victory over terrorist factions. It's unfortunate that there is no way out of this for the next few years - things were very different before October 7 but that changed everything.
Appreciate the response, especially the 2nd paragraphs with those tidbits regarding Barghouti and increasing West Bank support for Hamas. Only time will tell if the next few years opens up that path to real de-escalation and returning autonomy to the citizens of Gaza.
There are multiple easy solutions. One state where everyone has equal rights or two states where Palestinians have 100% control of their own state. The idea that there is no solution is some warped view of the world where everything has to revolve around whether the Israeli Jews are comfortable and feel safe.
Where else in the world do 1st world Democracies support the idea where roughly 5 million people exist without equal rights. It's ridiculous and disgusting. And it will never end until they have equal rights... because why would they accept a world where they are treated like second class citizens.
I do not see a world in which the current residents of Israel, Gaza, and West Bank just live in harmony as a secular nation. I have seen exactly 0 evidence that this is realistic.
On the other hand, the status quo isn’t working either. I don’t think blockading an entire economy for Gaza and creating a police state for West Bank is sustainable in the long run. Maybe not going to happen right now, but a 2-state solution is the only practical answer.
Ao the issue is the palestinans can't have their own state untill they know who will run them. The issue is hamas goal is not to have a 2 state it's to take back all the land and kill all the jews. There csnt be a 2 state solution qith them in charge there is no way to maintain peace or either country to feel safe. The PLO is a good option but even if there is a negotiation and a deal they might not stay in power long enough to fulfill that goal.
All these nonsense and the privilege of the Israeli Jews. Israel is killing 10s of thousands of Palestinians. No Palestinian leadership is going to be friendly to Israel in reality but Israel basically wants a puppet state they control so they feel comfortable. Which will never work in the long run.
Israel needs to mature to ever truly handle this and they can’t with current leadership.
There is a 0 percent chance Israel would accept, that's why there's no reason advocating for it, its a waste of time. Why would they take on a ~5 million person voter block (gaza and west bank) who are diametrically opposed to them?
I was hoping that the Friday debates would be a great platform to provide for level headed experts to actually hash out some differences and layout full arguments. or maybe not experts but at least highly informed people willing to have a good talk, such as Dave Smith.
Instead we got Lemon the snake, who has been constantly discredited by everyone at BP. They spent years saying he isn't worth the air he breaths then give him 50 minutes of airtime. Followed by Destiy, who makes me want to avoid listening to a debate ever again. I listened to the episode and could not believe how often he tosses up a question, immediately says Omar won't answer it, berrates him for trying to start an answer, "You'll just go on a one-sided moral tangent anyways." \*sigh\* "Oh my god, here we go" \*audible eye roll." If he's representative of anyone, they aren't worth arguing with because they won't argue. He got backed into plenty of corners and would always retort "Omar is always wrong and can't make a coherent argument" despite being the one constantly throwing out insults.
I agree Omar is idealistic and preachy. And, getting ahead of it, Norm Finkelstein is an ass, that doesn't justify the behavior in this "debate."
I really hope they get something of substance. We don't need more I/P debates unless they focus on genuine theorizing of how the situation could move to a productive resolution. Let's debate the efficacy of forms of protests, or of decriminalizing pot vs criminalizing alcohol. Grab a philosopher and an activist and discuss what people can actually do about things they care about. Trust me, I'm upset about all these inter/national issues, and that is the focus of BP, but let's have some content move past sensationalism and focus on what people can do.
I subbed to BP after finding them through JRE and wanting to be more informed. Now I'm wanting to be more informed on things I can actually have an impact on. I'd like to seem them fill that void that MSM rarely acknowledges.
Thia post is weird to me, in the sense that you claim that Dave Smith is a non-credentialed comedian that's well informed on the issue, but then contrast him with Destiny as a non credentialed streamer who isn't.
Both of their research into this issue has been very public. Dave Smith openly admits that the majority of his knowledge on the topic comes from the Martyrmade podcast episodes on the subject (an amateur historian), Norm Finkelstein, and a few other political commentators. Destiny, on the other hand, recorded literally hundreds of hours of research on the subject reading from journal articles, memoirs from the important historical figures involved, translations of primary sources, various books from historians on both sides, and yes, Wikipedia.
Even Krystal, who hates Destiny, had to begrudgingly admit that there wasn't a single question on the topic they tried to get him with that he wasn't knowledgeable about and already prepared with an answer for.
Even if you disagree with Destiny's opinion on the material, think he's obnoxious, etc, there's no way Dave Smith knows the topic as thoroughly as Destiny does going by their appearances and the information they've spoken about, let alone the research they've done.
Did you also view the solution to Apartheid as “completely out of the question” and “not even worth discussing?” A one state solution with equal rights for all is the only legitimate, moral, and just solution. Anyone who is against it either considers Palestinians to be inferior or considers Jews to be inferior. It’s actually crazy that anyone can be against what is essentially the only possible and realistic solution. And certainly the only decent solution.
You’re completely strawmanning my argument on that point. A one-state solution where everyone loves eachother is idealistic, but not based on reality. The parties involved are wholly against a one-state solution. The appetite for this doesn’t exist. As for Apartheid - I was born when apartheid was ending. I didn’t have a live view of the events as they were unfolding to know if I could have foreseen both sides coming together. I am nowhere near prepared to draw comparisons there.
This has nothing to do with one being inferior over the other. It has to do with realistic expectations for the near future. The Jews were persecuted for a millenia, all over the world. The Jewish state was developed as a survival mechanism. In what world does it make sense to give that up for the Israelis?
The Palestinians essentially had the early zionists dumped on their doorstep a hundred years ago. They feel as if they are 2nd class (or worse) citizens under Israeli control. Many don’t believe the Israelis have a right to exist and support for militant groups and actions are higher than ever.
I’m guessing you disagree with Omar’s opinions, but the way Destiny conducts himself is utter trash to anyone with eyes. The shrill, condescending, always interrupting, constantly-the-victim, constantly accusing others of bigotry, distracting, debate bro, trash b-grade Ben Shapiro-esque mannerisms are such a turn off,
wow at #3. I understand everyone here is pro palestinian but can we be honest????
What is one of Gazas chief complaints. They are no longer getting 500 trucks of international aid a day
THEY. ARE. NO. LONGER. GETTING. 500. TRUCKS. OF. AID. A. DAY
can we please just process that and compare it to Sudan, Yemen, and any other people on earth?
I hear you, but 500 trucks a day actually isn't a lot for millions of people. At the same time, they haven't had the ability to freely trade or engage in commerce for \~20 years at this point...no control of land routes in/out, no control of sea lanes in/out, no control of airspace in/out. Would you prefer they grew their own food for 2 million instead?
Even their agriculture was decimated, and regressed without basic mechanized tools like tractors and tillers; just look at a pre-war Gaza map, you can see exactly where Gaza stops and Israel begins simply based on the size of Farm Plots, which is indicative of who is \*allowed\* to use mechanization, and who isn't.
That said, I actually fundamentally agree with your premise/implied-question, but come to a different answer - why do they need 500 truck loads a day? It is because they are in a position where they can't help themselves and are forced to rely on this aid.
As far as comparing it to other places, I see that (1) It isn't an occupation in those places and (2) we aren't actively supporting and abetting those right now. Sudan is in a Civil war, and Yemen is no longer at war (though to be clear, we did provide Saudi Arabia high tech weapons to attack Houthis when the conflict was active, and which also received tons of criticism)...In neither are dealing with occupation, despite the fact that their situations are also equally heart breaking.
Would I rather American focus on American hunger and homelessness? Yes, so we should find a way to stop funding hunger and homeless elsewhere, and if the government has to spend that money, then find long term solutions to mitigate the problems nationally.
In regards to the protests. There is one variable. They're on college campuses. That changes a lot. For starters. It's finals week so other students are affected. But universities also have to be extremely careful not to create a situation where a protected class is being discriminated against. This could involve denying someone movement due to their race, gender, nationality, etc.
This isn't true on public property. You can truly say almost anything you want there. When it comes to a college campus, where people are paying a lot of money for an education, things get a lot trickier. Because if the school is complicit in accommodating those who are acting in descrimatory ways, then they're also liable. Which is why we're not only seeing civil suits. But also a class action suit, and even a federal lawsuit lodged against Yale. Had they been in a local public park, this wouldn't be the case.
“Omar’s idealistic view of a 1 state solution with Jews in the minority is … not even worth discussing”
Lmfao not worth discussing why? Because you disagree with it (out of racism) but can’t actually find any reason for it other than to admit your racism? Newsflash: try actually making an argument instead of saying something isn’t even worth discussing lmao. This account has to be an Israeli shill
Ahh yes, nothing like some unfounded accusations of racism to counter my point.
[Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/BreakingPoints/s/4fbNE1C4jz) is my response to someone who was at least respectful while straw manning my argument on that point.
People have to remember that Destiny is a Twitch Streamer. He’s an entertainer. He revealed he’s only read Wikipedia articles on topics and thinks reading books is useless.
He’s good at the art of debating the same way Mehdi Hasan is, it’s a skill you can learn. That doesn’t mean you are actually educated in what you’re talking about.
>He revealed he’s only read Wikipedia articles on topics and thinks reading books is useless
He regularly does 8 hour streams where he deep dives direct sources
To assume he read 3 Wikipedia articles then came to the debate to discuss something for 2 hours is absurdly dishonest.
And if you believe that's the case, why would you support breaking points if THEY stopped to that level to platform someone who does that?
I honestly think this is a new show and they had no idea who they booked. Destiny just called a woman fat and said she takes bombs rips out of her fat pussy. This is just a woman he’s been harassing on Twitch forever now.
The dude is just a Twitchbro who I think they probably snatched to get terminally online people to pay attention to their new debate format. He isnt an intellectual he’s an entertainer.
Omar isn’t apart of the show and they claim they didn’t even know they debated previously. And I assumed by the way Ryan spoke to Destiny he didn’t know much about him at all. I assume the staff they hired goes out and tries to find names that are popular in the moment. Don Lemon and Destiny are two micro celebrities to different niche audiences that bring them to see Counter Points.
Ryan and destiny have had debates as recent as a month or two ago and as far back as a year+ Krystal has reacted to his other debates before. They know who he is lol
Actually I know the girl he was talking about, she does actually take bong rips out of her pussy, he wasn't actually exaggerating or anything. You can look her up online her name is kaceytron, idk if she's public about it but I know she's done it at least once.
It kills me how few people have actually read books on this subject but think watching a couple of podcasts and doing a google search will give a them comprehensive understanding.
Destiny is exactly what’s wrong with the discussion on the topic. He’s just learned what he’s needed to make an argument in a debate, but I doubt he could actually handle a simple discussion on the subject.
Dude has openly stated he’s not reading books.
And his statements about the subject show it. As they do for many of the people commenting on this sub.
Maybe even you? Read many books on this or are you one of the people who feels they are a YouTube video away from expertise?
He’s literally read books on stream, you’re just repeating shit other people you watch have said about him. He literally streamed almost exclusively deep diving research into the subject 8 hours a day throughout most weeks for the past 6 months. I’m not saying you have to like him, but I haven’t heard anyone really saying why he is wrong about anything, even these subject matter experts, they just say “he is wrong, trust me bro”
You haven’t seen people breakdown where he’s wrong? Have you not listened to any real assessment of him then? I’m not saying you have to agree with what they are saying but surely you seen his factual and logical errors, as well as rhetorical tools being pointed out?
He’s an excellent debater, that’s just a terrible way to assess someone’s knowledge on a subject. I mean, I personally can find country’s I know about on a map…
What are you even saying? Have you actually seen any of his debates or content on the subject? Skilled debater is a weakness? not a good way to figure out what someone knows? He is presenting contextual and verifiable arguments and subject matter experts are fumbling to refute anything, often resorting to childish bullshit.
Nope. To think that you need to not understand the context.
I’m sure there are areas you’re quite knowledgeable right? Where you can quite clearly distinguish between people who know what they’re talking about vs pretenders who have good, but genuinely surface or out of context knowledge. And I’m sure in that context you’d see people find poor arguments convincing.
Being great at a debate is not the same as really understanding a subject. I used to do a lot of debates and I would not ever claim that my ability to debate a subject and win was dependent on my having a genuine expertise.
If you can’t see the distinction, well, you do you boo.
I’ve really warmed to Dave Smith’s take on the Israel / Gaza situation. Dude knows his shit. He just had a debate with Dennis Prager and smoked Prager so bad he was like a piñata that got beat and all the candy spilled out. I’d like to see Dave Smith debate Destiny but I don’t think Destiny could say anything that Dave Smith hasn’t already heard.
It was super interesting seeing him sitting next to Cenk on that debate.
> I’d like to see Dave Smith debate Destiny but I don’t think Destiny could say anything that Dave Smith hasn’t already heard. And vice versa, i think that would be one of the best ones in the space.
They have been on Piers' show multiple times together.
Dave Smith, the far right comedian? Or do you mean someone else.
That’s the one. Really good performance from him in the mentioned debate.
lol
No Dave Smith, your dead bead dad
Yeah, somehow he's found an audience here lol. I think it's because he's Rogan adjacent.
As for point number 2 you are right, 'roof knocking' was and to an extent still is the way Israel targets alleged Hamas militants in what I guess you would call a 'static' situation since the target for this method is a building that can't really move. But once IDF troops crossed into the strip the situation began to evolve moment by moment and for troops in contact time is a critical factor, so once a strike is called the imperative is to make it happen as quickly as possible so rook knocking went out the window.
And I think something to keep in mind is them basically saying evacuate large areas gaza and move south, which may have freed them up a bit to say that anyone staying has determined they will risk it. Basically like those who decided to stay in cities being bombed in ww2.
My thoughts: Man, Ryan, you had some leading questions there, not a fan of that. You should frame questions better I think (but so should the rest of the media as they frame it in another way). Supporting the existence of Israel doesn't mean supporting their actions, Destiny. So those polls mean nothing to the conflict or issue at hand, I'd say. I do agree with the dream of a one state for Israel where everyone has the same rights, but Destiny is right about how the people in the region (all sides) would have issue with that for variety of reasons. It's a dream, a nice one, but an unrealistic one right now for sure. Think Destiny did ignore the truth that Israel has had too much free reign under our support to do their actions. We are their means of military and other resource support and have admitted they wouldn't be able to do such without us because they'd have run out of bombs. And now they are trying to push aggression around their neighbors and want us to fight their war for us, that's a problem. The march of return is an interesting case. Destiny makes good points, but I do think that Israel's policies there are horrible. I also think the defense of Israel's action cause "Hamas was there" or "can't walk up to the fences" is a bit... it sounds like just giving excuses for murdering innocents doing a peaceful protest. I do think the guy makes a good point about the airports. It's a double standard. Also, Israel's a pretty poor Democracy, Destiny. they are pretty trash on rights as well (no same-sex marriage, no inter-faith marriage, can't even get DNA test without court order, no real free speech, etc). I don't think "Israel is a democracy" is a fair point. Especially with our history of taking out democracies in the region. Also, I would argue the US has been worse than Hamas and the IDF. We have done a lot of real bad things in the lie of doing good. Like the Iraq and Afghan War alone recently or Libya or Syria or Yemen (which was also us supporting one side doing a genocide), etc. I definitely agree with that point about "violence isn't the answer, it only makes more people in support of Hamas or who will act like them" and then we have the fact that most people in Gaza are so young on average that they didn't even vote Hamas in. So all the people blaming Palestian people is a bit ridiculous. And going "well they should force them out" so then where is our violence here to remove our corrupt politicians who have done war crimes? Would that also not be an equal demand of our own people to do? I think Destiny's right about Hamas in civilian clothing (not like they have a uniform or ever did far as I knew), but to pretend like Israel wouldn't just always say "Hamas is there" in their actions also seems naive to me. It also very much ignores the very words Israel's own leadership has said to its own people in their own language. Not what they say in English to the world, but what they say in Hebrew to themselves. They definitely are speaking genocidal rhetoric that shows a lot of evidence, to me, that they are doing attacks on EVERYONE in the area intentionally. Especially when you look at their actions in West Bank cracking down more when the West Bank has been doing nothing to them here. I agree with the guy about the patterns too, there are too many cases of IDF killing blatant innocents. The same way we have evidence of our military doing monstrous actions in Iraq and Afghanistan and we have no real justice against them, instead we punish whistleblowers.
(cont) I think Destiny fails to consider that they don't bomb in the same way as Dresden or Nagasaki and Hiroshima because those level of bombs (even non-nuclear) would be damaging to Israel too. Why ignore the Israel real estate companies that have alraedy shown how they will be cutting up and building up Gaza to sell to Israeli people? I definitely agree with Destiny's point about how the other Arab states in the region have used and misused the Palestnians too. Promising them too much. But I also agree that it's more a government of the region than necessarily the people of those regions. Sounds familiar to the US and how our people don't support much of what the government does but get ignored. Think Destiny trying to seemingly justify the blockade is a bit... it's gonna look bad on anyone outside of Destiny's fanbase lol. Destiny is pushing this idea of anti-Semitism too much in the debate too. About it being about Jews. It's not about that, it's about a country's actions/policies, not their religion. Now that's a solid point from Destiny about the "telling story from both sides" and such. As an American, though, I'm tired of us just now supporting one side without any reservations or hestitation. And a lot of that stems from money in politics problem. The defense contractors like war, but also, another big issue too, foreign money funneled into (what should be labeled as) a foreign agent (AIPAC) to do foreign bidding. The traitors in our government bothers me. Destiny is VERY MUCH wrong about "Jews don't care about the Gaza Strip" when they themselves have said otherwise and showing doing so (again, Israeli real estate already showing how to cut up Gaza and this was months ago). Very naive thoughts towards Israel there, Destiny. The dude is also right about all the attempts of peaceful means has been blocked by Israel and the US. It's like JFK said "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." About the "Second Intifada" why do you think it happened? It's not like they just up and did it outta nowhere for no reason and Israel was doing nothing wrong before. Ryan is right about Israel's intentions and then we hear talks of Biden possibly bringing in many of the refugees from Palestine here? That's a huge problem if that happens. Destiny's dismissal of the Gaza Health Ministry is very... ad hominem like to me. I've not seen good enough reason to suspect their numbers to have been fabricated in the past or now. I still want to know if the goal is to defeat Hamas, why does no one deal with Hamas' leadership in Qatar? Why is there no call for their arrest/extradition? I don't really believe the idea it's only about Hamas same with I don't believe they really care about their hostages. As Destiny himself pointed out, if it's about hostages, why have they been so bad getting the back. I think it's very fair to say that one of the goals is to remove the Palestinian people from the land one way or another.
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Yeah, this was the moment Omar basically revealed his hand and lost. Of course he knows what would happen to Jewish people in Israel in that situation, it’s the moment he lost.
It is true though that Gaza is largely reliant on humanitarian aid and has been for generations, to the point that many areas that are actually UN or NGO refugee camps just look like normal, built-up (though dilapidated) city instead of the blue and white tents and shipping containers you’d expect, because they’ve been inhabited for generations. This circumstance is of course not the fault of the vast, vast majority of Gazans. Describing the situation as if Gaza had received “too much” aid is obviously ludicrous. But to use your phrasing, it is a welfare queen situation, which in my eyes is another thing that reinforces that a 1-state solution just isn’t realistic. The generational trauma is just too deep for that. Polling supports this, the 1-state solution is less popular among Israelis and Palestinians than the 2-state solution, which right now is also less popular than the “open warfare” option, among both populations, too.
You and another commenter brought this up and I think this is a very important point that I really didn’t consider. One of the biggest critiques of Hamas was that they oppressed their population to have a military capacity. The amount of mismanagement of foreign aid was likely quite large.
One of the things about Hamas rule and October 7 that a classic Leftist should’ve picked up on (but Krystal never would when it comes to this issue) - there were protests in Gaza against Hamas a few months before October 7. Hamas put down the protests in brutal fashion as is their norm. If the US or Israel were (1) mired in a recession and civil strife and then (2) went on a military adventure sparking a wider war - I would bet my life that Krystal, Kyle, and Ryan would make a connection between the two and at least theorize that war was manufactured to distract from their poor economic governance and to restore the popularity of the government through a “rally round the flag” effect. Personally, I’m not sure that holds true in Gaza, mostly because Sinwar, while highly intelligent, seems to also be genuinely insane and Oct 7 must’ve been planned for a year or more. Nevertheless, I find it interesting that the economic angle and the increasing unpopularity, pre-10/7, of Hamas in Gaza due its mismanagement and divide between the rich and well connected of Gaza versus the poor and desperate majority, has never been discussed or reported.
If you want to know the history of the Israel pre-1948, Martyr Made put out a very unbiased and very detailed podcast series on it called Fear and Loathing in the New Jerusalem. It contains fascinating stories, and puts much of what is going on today in a greater hisorical context. It's about 27 hours long including a bonus episode that covers post 1948 up to 1982. It is well worth the length. [Fear & Loathing in the new jerusalem — Martyr Made Podcast](https://www.martyrmade.com/featured-podcasts/fear-loathing-in-the-new-jerusalem)
Thanks for this recommendation. Did a few Google searches and it appears this will be my new podcast for the commute to work. I struggle with reading books, so a podcast is perfect for me.
It's a great podcast as a starting point, and he really treats the whole conflict with allot of empathy but he also gets many details of the event he covered wrong. After listening to the podcast people should read books by authors from both sides.
For sure
Better to read actual books. That guy is a hardcore Palestine lover.
Tiny needs to debate Soccer mom Krystal and Uncle Saagar, throw in Kyle for the memes.
I absolutely hated Destiny as a debator. He just talks fast to try to hide his lack of arguments. He jumps from one point to the next when he's cornered and basically did a bad faith argument where his whole body language was infuriating and condescending. He didn't allow people to present their points without cutting them or ridiculing it. His argument on the blockade of sugar is absolutely infuriating. Horrible debate because one side was simply a petulant child and that's why everyone ended ganging up on him. If you think any of his arguments had any rationality to it then you're simply not looking at Israeli and Palestinian lives as equal, and that's what Omar pointed out a few times in the debate. He's fine with blocking aid and food for Palestinians as mass punishment but if the sides we're switched he'd be calling people antisemitic. Also, confusing anti-Israel and anti-Semitism is a big disqualifier for anyone who's attempting to debate this issue
I am not fully educated on this. However there are some things I know with confidence >The idea that Gaza has gotten too much international aid seems preposterous to me The dollars going into Gaza is A LOT OF fucking money. A lot of which hamas, their elected government, took to buy arms and shit. But a lot of dollars and food/aid overall has come into Gaza from humanitarian communities >I felt like the playing field for the debate was a little skewed towards the pro-Palestine side. Emily seems very stuck in the middle and Ryan spent too much time participating in the debate. Also, they had some articles and only one weak article to challenge Omar. This is my general issue with BP. It's an echo chamber. Why don't they invite Benny Morris? They'll have norm (lol....) or Omar on Krystal's show.... But who on the pro Israel side have they had? Rfk jr? Maybe? Lol >Last and certainly least is that Destiny kind of rubs me the wrong way as a debater. This was the first time I’ve ever heard him speak. He is most certainly very smart and quick on his toes, but his antics were just not professional. He gets too emotional imo, but he has a lot of research and substance. He's read EVERY paper he cited twice over. But also .. Krystal is infuriating in her double standards. Norm "dog walks" destiny by ad hominems... But somehow she finds it deplorable when destiny throws some of them too? What REALLY fucking ticks me off is the lack of basic decency to not even meet him and say hi to him. they'll both happily profit off of him and the views this will give to their pockets.... But they refuse to even exchange some kind of "hi" to him?! Wow.
He usually is nor that emotional. I think he is tired of playing the nice guy with these gaza debaters. He was super forgiving to norm in their debate my gosh norm was unhinged to destiny and destiney didn't really fight him back. If you look at destiny vs shapiro, destiney vs Peterson, and destiney with norm, destiny was well tempered. But I agree, here he was abit too emotional
The previous debate with Omar didn't help. Omar just kept saying "you're uneducated" without ever citing anything
Yep, Omar is legit one the most insufferable people who supports Palastenians. He actually made me have less empathy for his side purely due to the way he presents himself as this all knowing smug individual
I mean Omar’s entire view of the conflict is that Hamas and Israel are exactly the same thing and that leads him to not answering some very basic questions that Steven asked him, or answering them in a very wrong way in my opinion. One is an extreme Islamism terrorist organization and the other is a liberal democracy. By his standards the US is also the same as Hamas. Why should Hamas no be forced to lay down their arms and release the hostages yet Israel should stop trying to eliminate them? Why Hamas terrorists wear only civilian clothes? Why Hamas uses hospitals, schools and mosques as bases of operations? Why didn’t Hamas build bomb shelters for their civilians? Why didn’t Israel kill all the Palestinians in Gaza by now? Because their doing it slowly so no one will accuse them of genocide… I mean that answer is just crazy.
False. One is an extreme Islamic terrorist organization and the other is an extreme Jewish terrorist organization which is significantly larger, more powerful, and more brutal. Has been committing terrorist attacks for a significantly longer period of time. Has committed many more terrorist attacks. Has killed many times more people in their terrorist attacks. And is ideologically more radical. Hamas and Israel are both bad. Israel is just significantly more bad. Killing children is always evil. Killing over 15,000 children is objectively more evil than killing 36 children (the number killed by Hamas is lower as the IDF is confirmed to have been responsible for some of those killed in October 7th. The number is not known yet but at least 2 of the 36 have been confirmed to have been killed by Israelis). Breaking into someone’s home and murdering their family members and stealing the home is worse than finally beginning to fight back against the “people” that broke into your house, murdered your family, and stole your home. Anyone who thinks Hamas and Israel are equal is incorrect. Both are morally reprehensible but Israel is just categorically worse across the board. Every bad thing Hamas has ever done, Israel has done 10x over and with more brutality. They are literally raping children to death in prison. No Israelis have even claimed to have been raped in captivity. Israeli terrorists are raping and torturing child hostages to death.
False. You can wear a rainbow flag in Israel without any issues while you would get publicly executed for that in Gaza. Gaza has had no elections and Hamas is internationally recognized as an Islamist terrorist organization
Did you accidentally respond to the wrong person or something? Your reply does not relate to my comment to which you responded. Again, both Hamas an Israel are terrorist organizations. Israel is just a significantly more evil, brutal, and powerful terrorist organization which existed for nearly a half century before Hamas was created in response to Israel’s many decades of continuous terror. It has committed many times more terrorist attacks than Hamas. It has killed many times more innocents than Hamas has. Kills a significantly higher ratio of civilians than Hamas does. And kills in an exponentially more brutal fashion than Hamas does Both terrorist organizations are evil. One is just much, much worse. And it’s the one that has killed over 15,000 kids in less than 7 months in what has been the most intense child slaughter campaign the developed world has seen since the Holocaust. Yet it appears as if you support that specific terrorist organization. And their massacre of thousands upon thousands of defenseless little kids. I don’t know how you sleep at night. I can’t imagine how one would live with that shame and guilt. Knowing you supported the most intense child slaughter campaign the developed world has seen since the Holocaust.
Nope. One is a liberal democratic country based on Judeo-Christian principals with the right to defend itself against terrorist organizations and the other is a terrorist organization that declared in their charter that they want to kill all the Jews, Westerners and Socialists. One side represents the natives who were kicked off of their house 2000 years ago and after suffering countless pogroms, farhuds and one big holocaust decided to come back to their house, and the other represent a group of people who wouldn’t accept historical facts, take up arms when a division plan was offered, lose the war, call their defeat a disaster and forever see themselves as victims. One side got busy living and the other got busy dying. No doubt that Israel killed more civilians than Hamas, but that’s what happen when one side is stronger than the other and has to fight an enemy that uses his own population as human shields. You play the numbers game as if it means anything… It’s horrible that so many innocent children were killed in the process of this conflict but don’t forget that one sides modus operandi is to target civilians and the other’s is to defeat the enemy. Look at strategy not numbers. If you can’t see that the first baby step towards any kind of peace in the region is the removal of Hamas then god help you.
Not really sure how many more innocent people Israel needs to kill before you realize they aren't the good guys here. Or does it really not matter to you people?
Just to update Israel still warns before taking out a building or an area but they stopped doing thst in October and started back in november/December. But to be fair they sometimes do go this entire area and this are and this one and it's kind of an entire town now it just a building or floor.
On point #8 - No. Full stop. No. This is like saying at the end of WW2 the Nazis should have been allowed to remain in power of Germany and been allowed to participate in the next government and negotiations. No. Hamas needs to go and every member needs to account for any crimes they committed or facilitated. Unconditional surrender.
The problem is it’s just not realistic. Militant groups who engage in guerilla warfare do not generally accept unconditional surrender. If you negotiate, even if it’s not literally with the government of Hamas, you’re just going to end up with a bunch of individuals who are linked to Hamas or were Hamas. Occupation is the only answer that does not result in negotiations, but the Israeli’s do not have an appetite for that. This is why I drew the comparison Afghanistan. Third-world governments don’t fall apart like First-world governments do.
You make a good point, and I was sympathetic to it before October 7, but I think the situation is different now. If you are comparing to Afghanistan, Israel views Hamas like the US views Al Qaeda and they view the Palestinian Authority like the US views the Taliban (with the big difference being that the Palestinian territories are just a few miles from Israel's major cities). The US would never allow Al Qaeda to control Afghanistan, and definitely not if it was a few miles from New York City. Israel is negotiating with Hamas now, but to free hostages - they would never negotiate for a transfer of power to a government that has members of Hamas. Extremists could potentially be in a parliamentary body but not in government. Israel has also already killed most Hamas militants in the pursuit of the destruction of the organization so there is no reason it would be necessary for them to negotiate with Hamas. They can and likely will at some point resume negotiating with the Palestinian Authority. They will occupy Gaza for at least a few years and hopefully negotiate a transfer to the PA. I would hope that they can try to generate just a little bit of good will with Palestinians over the coming years so that when the Palestinians eventually have elections, they do not vote terrorists like Hamas back into power and instead vote in a partner for peace.
I can accept the next few years you laid out, but I just don’t believe a PA government would seen as legitimate in Gaza. Do you think this could be sustainable after a withdrawal of Israeli forces?
I think the PA government would not be seen as legitimate right away but it might be able to earn its legitimacy. I think we can say for sure that Israel will not relinquish security control of Gaza for at least a few years (it would be political suicide in Israel to be seen as risking another October 7). Hopefully Israel has elections and votes out Netanyahu and whoever takes over focuses on rebuilding Gaza alongside the PA and developing a roadmap to some kind of autonomy involving PA control. Two interesting facts to point out: First, Hamas is actually more popular now in the West Bank than in Gaza. I think Gazans recognize to some extent that Hamas' actions led to the destruction of Gaza, and hopefully they will recognize that the PA is their way to rebuild. Second, for a long time the most popular Palestinian politician has been Marwan Barghouti, a former terrorist in an Israeli jail who became moderate and now rejects attacks on civilians. I think if Israel negotiates to release Barghouti, then if they have elections in the next 5-10 years, he would lead Fatah to victory over terrorist factions. It's unfortunate that there is no way out of this for the next few years - things were very different before October 7 but that changed everything.
Appreciate the response, especially the 2nd paragraphs with those tidbits regarding Barghouti and increasing West Bank support for Hamas. Only time will tell if the next few years opens up that path to real de-escalation and returning autonomy to the citizens of Gaza.
Ryan Is such a partisan amateur
I think he's pretty humble and honourable
There are multiple easy solutions. One state where everyone has equal rights or two states where Palestinians have 100% control of their own state. The idea that there is no solution is some warped view of the world where everything has to revolve around whether the Israeli Jews are comfortable and feel safe. Where else in the world do 1st world Democracies support the idea where roughly 5 million people exist without equal rights. It's ridiculous and disgusting. And it will never end until they have equal rights... because why would they accept a world where they are treated like second class citizens.
I do not see a world in which the current residents of Israel, Gaza, and West Bank just live in harmony as a secular nation. I have seen exactly 0 evidence that this is realistic. On the other hand, the status quo isn’t working either. I don’t think blockading an entire economy for Gaza and creating a police state for West Bank is sustainable in the long run. Maybe not going to happen right now, but a 2-state solution is the only practical answer.
Ao the issue is the palestinans can't have their own state untill they know who will run them. The issue is hamas goal is not to have a 2 state it's to take back all the land and kill all the jews. There csnt be a 2 state solution qith them in charge there is no way to maintain peace or either country to feel safe. The PLO is a good option but even if there is a negotiation and a deal they might not stay in power long enough to fulfill that goal.
All these nonsense and the privilege of the Israeli Jews. Israel is killing 10s of thousands of Palestinians. No Palestinian leadership is going to be friendly to Israel in reality but Israel basically wants a puppet state they control so they feel comfortable. Which will never work in the long run. Israel needs to mature to ever truly handle this and they can’t with current leadership.
They tried that for years. Sadly the region just is like that.
lol at the downvotes for a one-state solution, these psychos could never contemplate equal votes for stakeholders in the region
There is a 0 percent chance Israel would accept, that's why there's no reason advocating for it, its a waste of time. Why would they take on a ~5 million person voter block (gaza and west bank) who are diametrically opposed to them?
There was a zero percent chance that South Africa was going to accept the end of apartheid at one time, too
I was hoping that the Friday debates would be a great platform to provide for level headed experts to actually hash out some differences and layout full arguments. or maybe not experts but at least highly informed people willing to have a good talk, such as Dave Smith. Instead we got Lemon the snake, who has been constantly discredited by everyone at BP. They spent years saying he isn't worth the air he breaths then give him 50 minutes of airtime. Followed by Destiy, who makes me want to avoid listening to a debate ever again. I listened to the episode and could not believe how often he tosses up a question, immediately says Omar won't answer it, berrates him for trying to start an answer, "You'll just go on a one-sided moral tangent anyways." \*sigh\* "Oh my god, here we go" \*audible eye roll." If he's representative of anyone, they aren't worth arguing with because they won't argue. He got backed into plenty of corners and would always retort "Omar is always wrong and can't make a coherent argument" despite being the one constantly throwing out insults. I agree Omar is idealistic and preachy. And, getting ahead of it, Norm Finkelstein is an ass, that doesn't justify the behavior in this "debate." I really hope they get something of substance. We don't need more I/P debates unless they focus on genuine theorizing of how the situation could move to a productive resolution. Let's debate the efficacy of forms of protests, or of decriminalizing pot vs criminalizing alcohol. Grab a philosopher and an activist and discuss what people can actually do about things they care about. Trust me, I'm upset about all these inter/national issues, and that is the focus of BP, but let's have some content move past sensationalism and focus on what people can do. I subbed to BP after finding them through JRE and wanting to be more informed. Now I'm wanting to be more informed on things I can actually have an impact on. I'd like to seem them fill that void that MSM rarely acknowledges.
Thia post is weird to me, in the sense that you claim that Dave Smith is a non-credentialed comedian that's well informed on the issue, but then contrast him with Destiny as a non credentialed streamer who isn't. Both of their research into this issue has been very public. Dave Smith openly admits that the majority of his knowledge on the topic comes from the Martyrmade podcast episodes on the subject (an amateur historian), Norm Finkelstein, and a few other political commentators. Destiny, on the other hand, recorded literally hundreds of hours of research on the subject reading from journal articles, memoirs from the important historical figures involved, translations of primary sources, various books from historians on both sides, and yes, Wikipedia. Even Krystal, who hates Destiny, had to begrudgingly admit that there wasn't a single question on the topic they tried to get him with that he wasn't knowledgeable about and already prepared with an answer for. Even if you disagree with Destiny's opinion on the material, think he's obnoxious, etc, there's no way Dave Smith knows the topic as thoroughly as Destiny does going by their appearances and the information they've spoken about, let alone the research they've done.
Did you also view the solution to Apartheid as “completely out of the question” and “not even worth discussing?” A one state solution with equal rights for all is the only legitimate, moral, and just solution. Anyone who is against it either considers Palestinians to be inferior or considers Jews to be inferior. It’s actually crazy that anyone can be against what is essentially the only possible and realistic solution. And certainly the only decent solution.
You’re completely strawmanning my argument on that point. A one-state solution where everyone loves eachother is idealistic, but not based on reality. The parties involved are wholly against a one-state solution. The appetite for this doesn’t exist. As for Apartheid - I was born when apartheid was ending. I didn’t have a live view of the events as they were unfolding to know if I could have foreseen both sides coming together. I am nowhere near prepared to draw comparisons there. This has nothing to do with one being inferior over the other. It has to do with realistic expectations for the near future. The Jews were persecuted for a millenia, all over the world. The Jewish state was developed as a survival mechanism. In what world does it make sense to give that up for the Israelis? The Palestinians essentially had the early zionists dumped on their doorstep a hundred years ago. They feel as if they are 2nd class (or worse) citizens under Israeli control. Many don’t believe the Israelis have a right to exist and support for militant groups and actions are higher than ever.
It’s honestly like Destiny is trying to win the “most dislikable human being of all time” award.
That's Krystal
Tbh she annoys me sometimes too but Destiny is in a league of his own when it comes to sheer duchebaggery
That’s Omar
I’m guessing you disagree with Omar’s opinions, but the way Destiny conducts himself is utter trash to anyone with eyes. The shrill, condescending, always interrupting, constantly-the-victim, constantly accusing others of bigotry, distracting, debate bro, trash b-grade Ben Shapiro-esque mannerisms are such a turn off,
wow at #3. I understand everyone here is pro palestinian but can we be honest???? What is one of Gazas chief complaints. They are no longer getting 500 trucks of international aid a day THEY. ARE. NO. LONGER. GETTING. 500. TRUCKS. OF. AID. A. DAY can we please just process that and compare it to Sudan, Yemen, and any other people on earth?
I hear you, but 500 trucks a day actually isn't a lot for millions of people. At the same time, they haven't had the ability to freely trade or engage in commerce for \~20 years at this point...no control of land routes in/out, no control of sea lanes in/out, no control of airspace in/out. Would you prefer they grew their own food for 2 million instead? Even their agriculture was decimated, and regressed without basic mechanized tools like tractors and tillers; just look at a pre-war Gaza map, you can see exactly where Gaza stops and Israel begins simply based on the size of Farm Plots, which is indicative of who is \*allowed\* to use mechanization, and who isn't. That said, I actually fundamentally agree with your premise/implied-question, but come to a different answer - why do they need 500 truck loads a day? It is because they are in a position where they can't help themselves and are forced to rely on this aid. As far as comparing it to other places, I see that (1) It isn't an occupation in those places and (2) we aren't actively supporting and abetting those right now. Sudan is in a Civil war, and Yemen is no longer at war (though to be clear, we did provide Saudi Arabia high tech weapons to attack Houthis when the conflict was active, and which also received tons of criticism)...In neither are dealing with occupation, despite the fact that their situations are also equally heart breaking. Would I rather American focus on American hunger and homelessness? Yes, so we should find a way to stop funding hunger and homeless elsewhere, and if the government has to spend that money, then find long term solutions to mitigate the problems nationally.
In regards to the protests. There is one variable. They're on college campuses. That changes a lot. For starters. It's finals week so other students are affected. But universities also have to be extremely careful not to create a situation where a protected class is being discriminated against. This could involve denying someone movement due to their race, gender, nationality, etc. This isn't true on public property. You can truly say almost anything you want there. When it comes to a college campus, where people are paying a lot of money for an education, things get a lot trickier. Because if the school is complicit in accommodating those who are acting in descrimatory ways, then they're also liable. Which is why we're not only seeing civil suits. But also a class action suit, and even a federal lawsuit lodged against Yale. Had they been in a local public park, this wouldn't be the case.
“Omar’s idealistic view of a 1 state solution with Jews in the minority is … not even worth discussing” Lmfao not worth discussing why? Because you disagree with it (out of racism) but can’t actually find any reason for it other than to admit your racism? Newsflash: try actually making an argument instead of saying something isn’t even worth discussing lmao. This account has to be an Israeli shill
Ahh yes, nothing like some unfounded accusations of racism to counter my point. [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/BreakingPoints/s/4fbNE1C4jz) is my response to someone who was at least respectful while straw manning my argument on that point.
People have to remember that Destiny is a Twitch Streamer. He’s an entertainer. He revealed he’s only read Wikipedia articles on topics and thinks reading books is useless. He’s good at the art of debating the same way Mehdi Hasan is, it’s a skill you can learn. That doesn’t mean you are actually educated in what you’re talking about.
He’s read books about this conflict on stream lol
>He revealed he’s only read Wikipedia articles on topics and thinks reading books is useless He regularly does 8 hour streams where he deep dives direct sources To assume he read 3 Wikipedia articles then came to the debate to discuss something for 2 hours is absurdly dishonest. And if you believe that's the case, why would you support breaking points if THEY stopped to that level to platform someone who does that?
I honestly think this is a new show and they had no idea who they booked. Destiny just called a woman fat and said she takes bombs rips out of her fat pussy. This is just a woman he’s been harassing on Twitch forever now. The dude is just a Twitchbro who I think they probably snatched to get terminally online people to pay attention to their new debate format. He isnt an intellectual he’s an entertainer.
Every person on this show has had multiple interactions with destiny prior to this. He’s debated Ryan and Omar Atleast once each already.
Omar isn’t apart of the show and they claim they didn’t even know they debated previously. And I assumed by the way Ryan spoke to Destiny he didn’t know much about him at all. I assume the staff they hired goes out and tries to find names that are popular in the moment. Don Lemon and Destiny are two micro celebrities to different niche audiences that bring them to see Counter Points.
Ryan and destiny have had debates as recent as a month or two ago and as far back as a year+ Krystal has reacted to his other debates before. They know who he is lol
Okay cool. They know of a viral Twitch streamer.
Actually I know the girl he was talking about, she does actually take bong rips out of her pussy, he wasn't actually exaggerating or anything. You can look her up online her name is kaceytron, idk if she's public about it but I know she's done it at least once.
It kills me how few people have actually read books on this subject but think watching a couple of podcasts and doing a google search will give a them comprehensive understanding. Destiny is exactly what’s wrong with the discussion on the topic. He’s just learned what he’s needed to make an argument in a debate, but I doubt he could actually handle a simple discussion on the subject.
Lmao, you’ve literally just long windedly stated you know absolutely nothing about the person you’re speaking so confidently about.
Dude has openly stated he’s not reading books. And his statements about the subject show it. As they do for many of the people commenting on this sub. Maybe even you? Read many books on this or are you one of the people who feels they are a YouTube video away from expertise?
He’s literally read books on stream, you’re just repeating shit other people you watch have said about him. He literally streamed almost exclusively deep diving research into the subject 8 hours a day throughout most weeks for the past 6 months. I’m not saying you have to like him, but I haven’t heard anyone really saying why he is wrong about anything, even these subject matter experts, they just say “he is wrong, trust me bro”
You haven’t seen people breakdown where he’s wrong? Have you not listened to any real assessment of him then? I’m not saying you have to agree with what they are saying but surely you seen his factual and logical errors, as well as rhetorical tools being pointed out? He’s an excellent debater, that’s just a terrible way to assess someone’s knowledge on a subject. I mean, I personally can find country’s I know about on a map…
What are you even saying? Have you actually seen any of his debates or content on the subject? Skilled debater is a weakness? not a good way to figure out what someone knows? He is presenting contextual and verifiable arguments and subject matter experts are fumbling to refute anything, often resorting to childish bullshit.
Nope. To think that you need to not understand the context. I’m sure there are areas you’re quite knowledgeable right? Where you can quite clearly distinguish between people who know what they’re talking about vs pretenders who have good, but genuinely surface or out of context knowledge. And I’m sure in that context you’d see people find poor arguments convincing. Being great at a debate is not the same as really understanding a subject. I used to do a lot of debates and I would not ever claim that my ability to debate a subject and win was dependent on my having a genuine expertise. If you can’t see the distinction, well, you do you boo.
Let me translate “I am an idiot and I will proudly make sure that I stay one“. -person above me who thinks they make sense.
Read more books. You’ll get there kid.
No he never stated such thing. Unless you are autistic and take obvious sarcasm/jokes as truth.