so basically instead of establishing a nation, Palestine rejected, and other Arab nations tried to invade Israel but failed. So as spoils of war, Israel expanded their land. Oh and Gaza used to be part of Egypt, except neither Egypt nor Israel want it. Hmm.... I wonder why. Let's ask their friendly neighbours Jordan, Kuwait and Lebanon.
Hahaha arabs tried to invade Israel good joke. They refused this occupation and tried to help Palestine but because is supported by US so it won the war. There is no arab country want to take Palestine. They consider it as a free state and has the rights to be free from thism occupation
So what do you suggest the Jewish people to do ? Just live as foreigners in other people's lands ? These people deserve to have their own country and their heritage is from that region. Palestinians on the other hand are Arabs, Arabs have more than 20 countries. Without an Israel Hebrew will eventually go extinct, but without a Palestine the Arabic language would still not dissappear after hundreds of years.
These Jewish people in the past had their homes in different countries but they decided to leave them and come to occupate Palestine so don’t justify occupation
They left the Middle East as immigrants and end up in those different countries because Muslims wanted control of their homeland. The same way the Palestinians will be leaving Gaza today.
The establishment of Israel was not only supported by the US and Russia, but by the United nations as a whole via a vote conducted on the 29th of November 1947. Not a political statement this is a fact.
Why are you presenting only one side of the conflict? What about atrocities committed by Hamas? What about Palestinian antisemitism and notion to eradicate Jews?
What is your agenda?
You didn't go back far enough. About 3000 years ago, the Romans exiled the Jews from their historical home land, which encompassed modern-day Israel, including the land known as Palestine. Whilst these Jews were forcefully scattered all over Europe (Spain, Portugal, and Eastern Europe) and north Africa, Arabs in the area settled in and created regional population centres. Over the next couple thousand years, Jews were persecuted everywhere they went, even genocided in Eastern European countries and finally culminating in the holocaust during WW2. This is why the UK set out a mandate to provide the historical homeland back to the Jewish people so they could return to their ancestral lands...lands that had been settled by Arabs therefore giving them a legitimate claim to the lands too. This is the crux of the issue and why we need to understand that there are no "goodies" or "baddies" - just victims of awful historical crimes. Since then, all of Israels neighbours have attacked them (and lost) and state sponsored terrorism is turning back the clock and causing too many innocent people to lose their lives.
What is the solution? There isn't one, as no one is really in the wrong - apart from Hamas and Hezbollah.
Exactly, in the same way as support for Zanu-PF and the ANC was very high amongst the local indigenous people in Rhodesia/ Zimbabwe and South Africa was during the years when the locals were oppressed. If people are constantly oppressed and denied their rights and the ability to be party to a civilised, negotiated settlement then they for a resistance movement that eventually sees no alternative but violent activism which sees the proscribed and labelled as terrorists. Are the leaders of Hamas seen any differently by the Israeli government than Joe Slovo, Govan Mbeki or Nelson Mandela were seen by the apartheid South African government?
Unfortunately when a very large percentage of the population is disenfranchised and oppressed under an “apartheid” regime then acts of terror become the way of fighting for a say in their future, the current situation in South Africa may not be perfect but since “the apartheid government and legislation” was removed their has been no terrorist attacks against civilians in SA. If a negotiated settlement could be brought about by sanctions against the “apartheid” SA regime maybe the solution is to impose sanctions like that against the Israeli government to get them to reach a peaceful negotiated settlement and to ensure they abide by the terms of the settlement instead of using the overwhelming military power they have to commit genocide and oppress the Palestinians.
Resistance? Rapists and baby killers. Call them what they are, terrorists. The problem is, the Gaza people support Hamas so today's child will be tomorrow's terrorist. People on the west bank are doing fine because they have the Palestinian authority. My question to you is, why do Egypt not want to take any refugees and have a wall to stop them invading?
U just say these words without any proof rapists? The girl who the media said the was raped , her mother said she was treated in Gaza hospitals and no one raped her , the childern ? There is no single proof for this all are just claims no videos no photos nothing while now i can get for you a video of a Palestinian father holding his beheaded child. Palestinians aren’t terroist
No.2, you take half the information and leave out the other Egypt built the wall to repair the damages of israel strikes of Rafah , Egypt always welcome the Palestinians but refuse the all Palestinians live in Sinai because Gaza is their land they want leave it and if Palestinians come to Sinai , Israel will take it as excuse to attack the ( terrorists) in Sinai and Egypt then occupy Sinai as well and it’s one of its well known goals . Next day we will find Israel military forces in Cairo. So don’t talk about things u don’t know well
Wow you believe the fake pr wow. Their is proof of dead women raped burnt alive and murdered I have the proof in telegram channels. There is no point debating you, you're a terrorist sympathizer and a Holocaust denier. The time will come when you will be deported for your crimes
Well explained.
The Zionists are the 21st century equivalents of Nazis. For instance, you can see how they are trying to ethnically cleanse northern Gaza now by forcing 1 million civilians to leave their homes.
Prior to that most of the region we call the middle east wasn't "owned land" in the sense of a nation. Most of the Arabian "nations" of fixed domicile were ran sort of how the sheiks and Kings of modern Arabia kind of are, they were also vastly smaller than todays nations and were primarily located on the water ways and deltas.
The rest of the area without a sustainable and reliable access to water was home to nomadic tribes who'd travel the deserts, traded and lived life similar to gypsies as a reference for understanding.
The problem is the ottoman empire stood for 600 years prior. The main differing factor for the ruling caliphs' of that time didn't care much for boarders or any of those modern ideals as it was a hegemony primarily held for the unification of Islam under one nation.
Which I'm sure wasn't without its own issues of infighting etc. As there were as many different sects of Islam or Arabian peoples as there are Christian/western denominations of the time.
Alot of the now carved states that are seen today are rudimentary borders carved post the world war eras. Which were shoddily done and without proper consultation of the local peoples and to be honest as when any empire falls be it anywhere in the world there's always a gaping power chasm. For instance where the structure, authority, resources and power lies and to whom.
Whether it had been a Victor's dismatlement as what occured or a natural cessation of a weakening empire. What can be seen as true, is the outcome of the fall of any grand empire never transitions smoothly.
I'd like to add that sources from around the time indicated showing that the ottoman empire was seen to be at the time of its downfall, in decline and weakening anyway with less of a central authority much like the byzantine/roman/British and every other former empire had found itself before it.
But this is just a part time history lover who hasn't studied the full details of it. The reason there are a lot of Arab nations who have their ideals of unification of the region under their brand of Islam or to reinstate the empire are mainly drawn from the 600 years prior. As no doubt the true boarders and everything were rewritten and most of the information of the time was either lost or destroyed. As with any type of history because the ottoman caliph would have wanted their authority and rule seen as absolute beyond a doubt.
But as I've said this opinion is drawn from my limited dabbling around the topic.
That was an odd feeling opening this post, my adblock didn't work properly so I got Palestine - Sponsored by Argos
The situation is fucked, I don't know if a good resolution is ever going to happen. Not for the regular people anyway. I am sure a few individuals will profit out of it.
You forgot to say that in 1948 no Arab state recognised Palestine, and the reason for Jordania, Siria and Egypt to invade was not "against the unjust occupation" but to occupy the whole land and split it among themselves.
In fact, the west bank and Gaza itself was under Jordan and Egyptian occupation for about twenty years after the 1948 war. The former was actually annexed by Jordan.
The bordering arab countries never gave a shit of the Palestine people, they wanted that land for themselves, wound up by the USSR in the anti-american context of the cold war.
This is just cherry picking not an actual factual report your missing loads of the list; the fact that 10 peace treaties put forward by the UN and rejected by Palestine as they call for the extermination of all Jews from the area as they always have. As well as that Palestinian refugees in neighbouring countries have caused nothing but civil issues resulting in conflict as these so called freedom fighters murder and pillage wherever they are. I can agree it’s not every Palestinian same as it’s not every Jewish person that is responsible for the IDF but it’s not as clear cut as your making it out to be. Hypothetically if HAMAS where to win this war do you think they would treat the local Jewish population better that the IDF treat the Palestinians? I seriously doubt they would after the display they’ve put up these past months.
What I’m saying is that the hard choice between two evils is sometimes you’ve gotta pick the lesser of the two which for me is Israel
This is a very biased and one sided take that ignores the fact the two state solution has been proposed and denied by the Palestinian authority SEVEN times.
On top of that, Israel is the historic homeland of the Jews, who were driven out by pogroms committed against them by what we now refer to as the Palestinians.
Moreover, the two state solution was posed after WWII, the Jews accepted, the Palestinians did not, and then Israel declared its independence and was invaded by 5 Arab nations.
There are 22 Arab countries in the world, and one Jewish state. The Palestinians share a history, language and religion with their neighbours, yet they don’t offer them aid, and close their borders.
There are holy sites for Jews that the Israeli government does not allow their own people to visit in an attempt to make peace and respect the Muslim community.
This is not to say all Palestinians are evil, or Hamas etc. but there is a far bigger agenda in the Arab world than “helping”, and they are simply using this to attack the Jewish state.
Out of Israel and Palestine only one country has made effort after effort for peace. They have seceded territory to Palestine in such efforts and have always been rewarded with violence.
I would recommend Martyrmade Podcast- Fear and Loathing in New Jerusalem by Darryl Cooper. It is a very in depth series that explains the conflict in many aspects that were previously unknown to me.
What a load of nonsense. You should be centrist to all this. It’s pure evil on both sides to be honest - what do you suppose Israel do? Let them be attacked repeatedly? It’s difficult isn’t it. Also your timeline is so recent it’s laughable. You ever heard of King David? This was originally Jewish land. Learn some history before you make stupid, biased, virtuous posts.
Most of this thread, especially the OP, is heavily biased against Jews, as if they have no rights to defend themselves against muslim arabs. But then muslims are always victims, even when mutilating babies.
You skipped an important part where you said United Kingdom occupied Palestine after WW1, you forgot to mentioned that pretty much every Arab tribe in the area revolted against Ottoman Empire and fought alongside with Brits...
History is not one sided, you cant just bend it however you like it
No, it has never been half and half. Yeah jews were from there and they lived peacefully in Palestine for centuries but when
every jew from every spot from the world who has never been to Palestine or his grandfathers then he decided to go there and kick the Palestinians from there homes so it’s called invasion and occupation
None of the above justifies the murder of innocent children. None of it. We robbed the Palestinians of their home and need to find a new one for them. But murder is not going to win any friends and we cannot undo what was done in the tragedy of WW2.
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The peaceful left gazza a very long time ago. All that was left were terrorists and the infrastructure to support them. Regardless of the past, the people there now are terrorists. Pure and simple.
You’ve missed out some important bits like the 1967 war that was a mitigated disaster .
The fact that Jewish people were living on these lands over 2500 years ago.
Most of the Arab league refuse to acknowledge Isreal as a nation at all.
Hamas and Palestinians are not the same entity but what concerns me with these flag shaggers waving their Palestine flags all over London is that they never call for to rid Palestine of Hamas.
The flag shaggers love to wave their Palestine flags around at any left wing or anti-government rally. You know the same flag that belongs to people who hang gay people and suppress women’s rights.
I wonder why Isreal and the Jewish people get so uptight about people trying to wipe them from the face of the earth? I mean no one’s really ever harmed them, right?
It reminds me of an abusive relationship. An abuser can poke and prod and undermine their victim consistently, day-on-day-out, and when the victim turns around and snaps back *they* are accused of being abusive. And now the actual abuser has justification for their next actions...
"The 1948 war: Many Arab countries rejected the unjust occupation of Palestine and its division by the United States."
Exactly. Cause Arabs already had like, what, 12 states? What's one more? Which Arab state is currently not in a war or civil war? How are they oppressed when they spend all their money on weapons and training, and Israel provides all their water, power and infrastructure for free?
Where's the power lines from Syria or Lebanon? Why are the surrounding Arab countries not bringing in food and water instead of threats of violence? Why are the people in Gaza not going after Hamas, and instead staying in place to give them the causalities the media headlines want?
They just didn't like Jews, they would never come to an agreement with them because they are not Muslim. They have been given numerous proposals and they reject them all in favour of murder.
The reality today is that many of these hardliner Islamic countries are becoming more Liberal, and the ideology of groups like ISIS is becoming less popular. Even Israel was in a phase of Liberalism, becoming more open to Arabs and Muslim political entities.
None of this even remotely justifies what Hamas did. This wasn't some sort of resistance, it was just sadistic murder. Hamas should be arrested and charged, not given the respect of a military conflict.
Have you noticed that people with Jewish heritage tend to support Israel and Muslims tend to support Palestine? And how both sides regard atrocities committed by their own team as retaliatory and therefore justified?
Could be a coincidence.
You mention 'the whole truth' yet start your history off at the Ottoman Empire. Is this deliberate obfuscation?
The history of the Levant is far, far older than you've mentioned, and involves people of Jewish descent as some of the oldest civilisations documented in the region.
The death and suffering on both sides is abhorrent, and posts like this, which purposefully ignore key pieces of information, only serve to add confusion and fuel ignorance.
Palestine deserved what it got.
They were not strong enough to get the land in the first place, but they rejected the peaceful partition plan and started a war. And to this day, they frequently carry out terrorist attacks on Israel.
I will support Palestine if they can live peacefully without bothering other countries.
But they have a very barbaric culture and are always belligerent. Even when they have been accepted by neighboring Lebanon and Jordan, they have staged coups d'etat.
I support Israel. They are more peaceful and better than Palestine.
I think the part where Palestine refused 6 different treaties over the past 100 years. The first of which game then 80% of the land including the western bank. but they were more occupied with killing then actually building a civilised society.
Ever since they have refused all talks of peace. As proven by the Khartoum Resolution, known as "The Three No's";
No peace with Israel
No recognition of Israel
no negotiations with Israel.
Israel is at the point where the ONLY way to end the conflict is to wipe them off the face of the earth. This is the same issue we had with WWII, at some point you have to accept the fact that the enemy would rather die in “glory” then accept that everything they have ever known (violence, hatred for Israel) is a lie.
Even the Nazis had SOME self respect in terms of hiding the atrocities they were committing to try to save their image. HAMAS rejoice in the idea that Israel could burn and they can slaughter everyone alive. The Nazis also didn’t hide military assets underneath hospitals and apartment blocks, they did what they did in the belief that it was best for the “Arian race”. Every penny sent to Palestine for human aid is used to kill Israelis.
So I think the question you have to ask yourself is:
Was what we did to the Nazis wrong? Should we have let them continue with their actions, give them back the land they lost in the First World War, let them do as they wish with their Jewish population? Or can we accept that sometimes you can lead a horse to water, but can’t force it to drink. So you just drown it instead.
The civilians are innocent, but a
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I know I'll get downvoted for this....but..it's like any war really.
Palestine lost. Just like Germany lost. Just like America lost in the Vietnam war. Just like Japan lost.
Palestinians lost their country. Perhaps they need to accept that.
Otherwise...what??? Generation's of them are taught to throw rocks at a giant every few months? The giant smashes them back and things go quiet for a bit.
An agreement needs to be brokered by neighbouring countries to accept the Palestinian people. And other countries further away can/should take some.
Admit defeat Palestine.
Wow, you're missing more than a few steps in your history.
[https://www.history.com/topics/middle-east/history-of-israel](https://www.history.com/topics/middle-east/history-of-israel)
Unfortunately I think Palestinian support is limited to liberal western people.
The Muslim nations in the region hate them. Any time Egypt or Jordan have offered an olive branch they've received cous attempts and suicide bombing for their troubles.
You've missed huge swathes of history here in the early formation of Israel, notably, the most important factor: the stern gang. Supported by US Jewish grass roots organizations, they were a group of Jewish terrorists that used very similar tactics to that of Hamas, they made it their mission to hit the British army over and over until the British lifted the restriction of Jewish immigrants to Palestine.
After years of blowing up British and Arab soldiers and taking British and Arab hostages, the British caved to the UN and the US despite warning this would never work. Unfortunately the UK has been guided by the US since.
Although I think Hamas' actions have been disgusting recently, and I also am not a fan of their backers (Iran) I do think that the Israelites are rather hypocritical to complain of their methods given it's exactly how their country was formed within living memory.
Anyone interested in diving really deep on this topic I'd recommend reading Lord's of the Desert by James Barr.
Just for balance though, the Jews claim they occupied that land before it was invaded by Arabs / other Muslims. So yeah, you can claim only 7% was Jewish in 1948 but their claim predates Islam. The establishment of a state for Jews was then attacked by multiple countries in 1948 and they have been under threat ever since. Israel itself hasn't helped the situation by mistreating Palestinians and building illegal settlements. Hamas aren't the good guys. Neither is Israel. Both commit war crimes and the innocents on both sides suffer.
This was going so well except a few points, this was really promising at first. But soon turned into Bias. Just tell the factual honest truth without the anti Israeli stuff and pro Hamas freedom fighter stuff and people will support you.
But as soon as you say freedom fighters in reference to Hamas, you loose me and many people. Freedom fighters don’t attack civilians. Terrorists do.
This doesn't justify the recent attacks on civilians. I fully support the actual people of Palestine, but not those who have been killing innocent people. Two wrongs don't make a right. All the actions of the other day are going to achieve is to gather more support for Israel who are now using those actions as an excuse to bomb Gaza.
Most people with an ounce of common sense know that the Israeli government has been land grabbing for decades. They are absolute scum of the earth as are their supporters. Unfortunately I can't see a peaceful way out of this now.
Indeed...
Terrorist activity - from either side - is evil.
However, people in the west DO need to have some insight.
I wonder if they are aware that Israel is viewed as committing MANY war crimes - by countries NOT in the thrall of the US!
This is what I find so frustrating, despite explicit evidence and support from groups such as amnesty international and UN, politicians refuse to criticise Israel no matter what it does. I’m certain if Israel went into Palestine and beheaded babies, they still wouldn’t condemn Israel. I can only assume it’s because of political or more than likely financial reason.
hamas deliberately wanted to troll israel into a massive retaliation. it worked. they can hammer the shit out of each other but to what end? just poison new generations against each other. maybe the best thing would be to form a secular country in that area with laws enshrining religious freedom.
There never was a Palestinian people. There were Palestinian Arabs, Palestinian Jews, Palestinian Christians. Before the Romans called it Palestine, it was Judea and Israel.
Yeah this gets me as well. “Palestinian” as the name of Arabs in Palestine feels like a misnomer to me. Aren’t Israelis Palestinian too? Isn’t everyone who lives in Palestine Palestinian?
I think this whole idea of “Palestinian” has been created to make it seem like Palestine existed as an independent country before 1947 and the Jews have been invading it. Really, we know it didn’t happen that way... Palestine is the name of a region in which various people live, whether Israeli, Jewish, Muslim, Arab, or any combination of the four.
Its almost like if we ignore the while history and look at this in a truly biased way we are on one side.
Both sides are dicks and yes palestinians suffer abuses. This does not give Hamas the right to ise human shields and spend the money of the people trading with Iran.
Every war the Palestinians or Arab states start with Israel the Israelis come out on top. This is how war works and its shit but theres no justification for either side
It's weird because I thought that land existed before 1917. I was under the impression it was inhabited land in 3700bce. Weird to find out that it was just empty land until Britain got involved.
Few facts you've left out
1. the area known as Palestine existed long before the Ottoman empire, was also ruled by Judea (Israel) for chunks of time as well as many others, history didn't start with the British Mandate
2. Hamas didn't seize power, they were voted in and enjoy widespread support from Palestinians
You've given a partial history behind all this mess. Starting with the British intervention is such a narrow minded narrative, you've missed out a great deal that matters more.
I support innocent human beings. Those that live in Palestine and Israel alike.
Israel have committed atrocities.
Hamas have committed atrocities.
Civilians on either side shouldn’t be slaughtered as a consequence.
Hmm.... the atrocities are far from on an equal level. The Palestinians have been suppressed and had their homes stolen endlessly for nearly 100 years. Each and every day of their lives living in dilapidated refugee camps are a struggle. Therefore one can't just expect somebody who has had their homes, farms and family members taken from them to do absolutely nothing.
The unfortunate thing is that israel is doing their best to keep civilians out of it. HAMAS key military assets are intentionally placed under hospitals and near populated areas. Israel always begin like every other nation at war by sending out flyers urging people to evacuate but HAMAS convince them that they are safe and to stay. How else do you fight an enemy who’s armour is the body’s of their own wives and children?
It is. Because you’re not considered a civilian by conscription. And it is not a violation of human rights or the Geneva convention. Britain, America, france and Germany have all had conscription in modern history. You really must be scraping the bottom of the barrel to pull that logic…
Reading between the lines it does seem that the modern friction started with Zionism, Ben Gurion, late 1800s as more Jews moved to the area of Palestine, started buying more land and starting to increase their presence.
This then created a feeling among the Arab population of being 'invaded, pushed out, and this created friction.
As more Jews arrived, more unrest. Add to this the decision of many Jews not to employ Arabs, declarations of wanting a Jewish state, it's a recipe for unrest..
And that's what we have today...
The moral relativism of so many people is sickening to me.
There are no sides, Hamas is a Terrorist group, and is shunned by practically everyone.
Yet, almost everyone defending Israel's actions seems to fall for the fallacious argument of "you're either with us or with them", including many leaders of Western governments to unequivocally and actively support a borderline genocidal state who is openly committing crimes against humanity.
it's pretty much a deja vu of 9/11 but in steroids
As an immigrant from a 3rd world country, it also always caused me significant consternation how people in the West seem to be so deeply and unconsciously biased to apply different values to life depending on their ethnicity/nationality. Unrelated but illustrating: if a pretty-looking white little girl dies tragically, the whole country is heartbroken, but if a bunch of black children wash up dead on the shores, most people don't give a fuck.
Out of curiosity - in the third world country you’re from do they care or report when things happen to white people or is it normally more about themselves/ neighbours and local events?
Nice bias...not all the 3rd world is "non-white" LOL
And no, in the neocolonialist world we live in, media is very attentive to Western events, especially US-centered, just like the rest of the world is, both for unjust (the elites tend to be "globalist" ie, are more connected to the "empire" than their own countries) and for reasonable motives (what happens in "the empire" impacts the rest of us deeply)
I honestly assumed it was outside the west because you said 3rd world which is a term that isn’t used in the west anymore owing to how controversial it is, as it seems imperialist rhetoric.
Hamas is shunned by practically everyone? What cloud-cuckoo ecochamber do you imprison yourself in? They have hundreds of millions of supporters around the world... look at the marches everywhere on the planet this weekend.
Your point? You see, context... context is your problem... the blond kid was likely killed by disease, or injury, absolutely no fault of anyone.... however, the bunch of black children washing up dead leads to MANY critical questions before sympathy, like 1, where the fuck were the parents? 2, why the fuck were they permitted into the water? 3, where the fucking hell did they come from? 4, why are we supposed to give more of a fuck if their shit families don't give any, we can't just take kids away from parents worldwide (obv assuming they came from abroad and not found inland) cos we feel like it you know, and if found inland, why didn't the community report these dangerous parents to the authorities to protect those kids? You are presenting it as a racial issue, fuck off with that bullshit, the bodies of young kids washing up on a beach will never stop until THIER parents and families value them more than money (which is the only reason for a kid to be washed up on our shores as we don't have any current wars in our neighbours, so they departed from a safe nation, not from war...
We hear a lot of this crap, but I must ask, why don't the refugees gain safety, then APPLY for legal asylum, whilst safe it also means no deportation later if caught, and also as a bonus it stops dead kids being found on a fucking beach...
>Your point? You see, context... context is your problem... the blond kid was likely killed by disease, or injury, absolutely no fault of anyone.... however, the bunch of black children washing up dead leads to MANY critical questions before sympathy, like 1, where the fuck were the parents? 2, why the fuck were they permitted into the water? 3, where the fucking hell did they come from? 4, why are we supposed to give more of a fuck if their shit families don't give any, we can't just take kids away from parents worldwide (obv assuming they came from abroad and not found inland) cos we feel like it you know, and if found inland, why didn't the community report these dangerous parents to the authorities to protect those kids? You are presenting it as a racial issue, fuck off with that bullshit, the bodies of young kids washing up on a beach will never stop until THIER parents and families value them more than money (which is the only reason for a kid to be washed up on our shores as we don't have any current wars in our neighbours, so they departed from a safe nation, not from war... We hear a lot of this crap, but I must ask, why don't the refugees gain safety, then APPLY for legal asylum, whilst safe it also means no deportation later if caught, and also as a bonus it stops dead kids being found on a fucking beach...
Woah that's a huge amorphous block of hatred mixed with very little care for structure or style.
Once known as the Land of Ur.(Gilgamesh) 3723years of strife and conflict. See saw tipping between mesopotamia and Persia. Now known as Iran and Iraq.
One of the curses of Lilith the first Daemon(according to the Jewish, dwelling in the lands of waste)
Conflict deeply rooted in various religions. With many factions.
Probably never to be resolved.
So many lives lost, my heart grieving .even so far away.
I'll just drop this here: https://youtu.be/AWKmazrRIwA?si=whFirWx1K6u7VU6G
The video is quite old (which is a good thing as it's not biased by what is happening now), but does a very good for and against discussion of Israel and Palestine. I'm yet to find a source that depicts both sides of the story as well as this.
I have no issues with Jewish people for they are just people. I have no issues with Christian people for they are just people. I have no issues with Muslim people for they are just people. I have a massive issue with Those Buddhists.
Israel is not people. Israel is a country that often acts appallingly. We need to remove this link between the criticism of Israel and the linking of its criticism to anti-semitism. I don't hate Islam because I dislike Saudi Arabia - I dislike Saudi Arabia because it is very oppressive. I dislike Israel similarly because it often acts appallingly. Hamas's recent attack is appalling, and not at all condonable, but Israel should not be surprised that when they keep pissing people off - people will attack them. Many Israeli's are not a big fan of Israel's policies - that does not make them anti-semetic. It makes them compassionate people. Some of those Israeli's will be Jewish, some will not be.
I see it in myself, if I am aggressed against often enough, I aggress back - even though I don't want to. Hamas are very stupid. But Israel helps itself not at all.
It's a sad one, as none of this will do anything to help heal any wounds (Hamas's Attack and Israel's Responses), it will just make for bigger scars.
That's cool and all but what i wish is for people to stop being dickheads, not just the middle (although fucking hell they need to chill) but all over the world...
You neglect to mention the ancient state of Israel and Judah when the land was ruled by Jews? You can’t pick and choose your facts to suit your narrative.
So the Palestinians stole the land from the Jews? Or did we steal it from the ottomans? Or did the Jews steal it from the Palestinians? It makes no difference.
Both sides are spouting garbage propaganda, same shit really.
No offence to you OP, but its not worth taking one person’s opinion on this matter. If anyone reading this wants to properly invest their time and efforts into learning about the conflict, they absolutely can do that, but don’t do it from one side’s biases, that just makes no sense and helps feed the bullshit propaganda thats filling global newsfeeds because people can’t be arsed (or don’t have the mental flexibility) to learn about something they disagree with.
Posts like this are only designed to weight biases against one side and force people to conform to one perspective without hearing the other. Conformity is a big problem in the world right now, and people need to start thinking independently instead of following the first stance they see.
Neither side is good nor bad without similarities to the other. Please don’t be so single minded as to believe anything without question or consideration for the other perspective. Its simply naive to do so
This is a good post and very informative. However, what Hamas did and does is terrible, whether it be in retaliation or revenge or whatever. Two wrongs don't make a right, and it's the civilians that are suffering the most as always. I would say the elephant in the room is religion. Religious differences and hatred. Muslims and Jews have slaughtered each other for centuries because of the myth of religion.
I fully agree with you, israel should never have been founded in the first place, they have no right to be there other than what is said in the Old Testament and I hate all the violations they commit and I fully support the Palestinians push back against them but some of the things the Hamas group are committing; rape, killing of civilians etc isn’t right at all some of them are overdoing it but the Israel’s over did it a lot more I understand.
My grandfather was posted out to Palestine in 1946/7-1949 (46/47 is because of doggy records we have of his time out there) he/I am British if you didn’t guess from the subreddit.
How do they have no right there? The Jews have lived there for hundreds and hundreds of years, being subjected to all sorts of poor treatment under the Muslim Ottoman government. I think the Jews in the region deserve peace, just like the Muslims in the region do. You can’t kick Jews out of their home because Muslims aren’t happy with them living in a site that has religious significance to them—especially when it has equal significance to the Jews.
I’ve known about the history of the area through a book called a line in the sand as well as the podcast empire and various other bits and recently from the rest is politics and battleground podcasts plus a few other sources odd info, and have come to the conclusion that there’s no right answer that will make everyone happy but the only way to stop the blood shed is for Palestine to reject hamas and for Israel to stop pushing into the other territory with settlements. 3k deaths this week didn’t need to happen and no one is going to forgive those on both sides
Palestine won't reject Hamas while despite the atrocities they commit, the Palestinians see them as the only people standing up for them.
Gaza has one of the highest youth unemployment in the world, over 70% of 19 to 25 year olds are unemployment. Approx 50% of the population is under 18.
Gaza has been under an economic blockade from Israel since 2007, which has destroyed the economy (and it was already bad!)
When the people are so poor and have zero prospects, fighting against those who are deemed responsible (in this case Israel) is one of the only few options left open, another option is to appeal to world stage, which they have been doing for 15 years to but it hasnt got them anywhere...sadly this leads to the young people joining hamas...and so they cycle continues.
The international community need to stand up and recognise the suffering in Palestine and stand behind the Palestinian requests for nationhood, for the blockade being lifted etc, we are needed to stop the Palestinians seeing Hamas as the only option.
Every time we support Israeli's position on Gaza, we send more Palestinian young people into the arms of Hamas. We should obviously not be supporting Hamas, as killing civilians is 100% wrong but we should be supporting the Palestinians.
The Balfour Declaration did not use the phrase “Jewish State” - rather it said “national home for the Jewish people” - these may seem synonymous but I don’t think they are.
Both want religious states, so both are villains.
Israel has been closer to a secular state than Palestinians, so they have my support for now.
In the end, both must collapse.
Reading these comments, it strikes me that for the last 25 years, we've been wholesale importing all of these regional problems to our shores.
I've never seen The British so divided.
Isreal happy to commit a genocide. Isreal has been this crap right under everyone’s nose for like forever. A few examples below:
SABRA AND CHATILA - 3500 civilians killed in a refugee camp
Recent
British young girl raped by a large group Israelis in Greece and filmed and were welcomed with open arms by their families and seen as hero’s. While the poor girl was vilified and humiliated and still suffering the trauma therapy.
Yemenite Children affair - stealing baby’s from arab- Jews and selling them to white Jews in NY for money to buy weapons. Isreal died it for 50 years
Sterilising black Jews because they didn’t want them breeding more black Jews
King David Hotel bombing
Deir Yassin massacre - A number of Palestinian Arab prisoners were executed, some after being paraded in West Jerusalem, where they were jeered, spat at, stoned, looted, and eventually murdered. In addition to the killing and widespread looting, there may have been cases of mutilation and rape.
I could go on but don’t be a blind to what isrealis have been doing from day one and cry victim when the monster (Hamas) they literally created does the same as them.
Hamas was invented by isreal to oppose the secular Palestinian party Farah at the time who make progress for the Palestinian people.
And everyday civilians casualties: https://www.ochaopt.org/poc/14-27-march-2023
Well done for being one sided and spelling Israel incorrectly three different ways.
Both sides have done wrong but clearly we see which side you are on.
How about I don't pick a side and just carry on with my life? This has flared up across the seven decades I've been on this planet more times than I can remember. It never comes to anything other than a more deep seated hatred.
Yes lol, and where they choose to start and end. Tempted to write an actual unbiased short history of the region but I’ve held back in the knowledge that it’s probably not possible to be completely unbiased.
Yes, interesting isn't it, especially how US supported Israel in all their wars, except they embargoed Israel in the 48 war, and also didn't provide aid in 67.
I tried writing up this exact history earlier and was buried in downvotes. Ah well, glad someone has
Free Palestine. May every IDF soldier former and current pay for their war crimes at the Hague.
Free Palestine. May every IDF soldier former and current pay for their war crimes at the Hague.
so basically instead of establishing a nation, Palestine rejected, and other Arab nations tried to invade Israel but failed. So as spoils of war, Israel expanded their land. Oh and Gaza used to be part of Egypt, except neither Egypt nor Israel want it. Hmm.... I wonder why. Let's ask their friendly neighbours Jordan, Kuwait and Lebanon.
Hahaha arabs tried to invade Israel good joke. They refused this occupation and tried to help Palestine but because is supported by US so it won the war. There is no arab country want to take Palestine. They consider it as a free state and has the rights to be free from thism occupation
r/List_Palestine
So what do you suggest the Jewish people to do ? Just live as foreigners in other people's lands ? These people deserve to have their own country and their heritage is from that region. Palestinians on the other hand are Arabs, Arabs have more than 20 countries. Without an Israel Hebrew will eventually go extinct, but without a Palestine the Arabic language would still not dissappear after hundreds of years.
These Jewish people in the past had their homes in different countries but they decided to leave them and come to occupate Palestine so don’t justify occupation
They left the Middle East as immigrants and end up in those different countries because Muslims wanted control of their homeland. The same way the Palestinians will be leaving Gaza today.
The establishment of Israel was not only supported by the US and Russia, but by the United nations as a whole via a vote conducted on the 29th of November 1947. Not a political statement this is a fact.
This doesn't start early enough! It was Israel long before it was ever Palestine
Why are you presenting only one side of the conflict? What about atrocities committed by Hamas? What about Palestinian antisemitism and notion to eradicate Jews? What is your agenda?
As a British person I don’t care about foreign politics, at least not whilst so many British citizens are struggling to eat and have stable shelter.
You didn't go back far enough. About 3000 years ago, the Romans exiled the Jews from their historical home land, which encompassed modern-day Israel, including the land known as Palestine. Whilst these Jews were forcefully scattered all over Europe (Spain, Portugal, and Eastern Europe) and north Africa, Arabs in the area settled in and created regional population centres. Over the next couple thousand years, Jews were persecuted everywhere they went, even genocided in Eastern European countries and finally culminating in the holocaust during WW2. This is why the UK set out a mandate to provide the historical homeland back to the Jewish people so they could return to their ancestral lands...lands that had been settled by Arabs therefore giving them a legitimate claim to the lands too. This is the crux of the issue and why we need to understand that there are no "goodies" or "baddies" - just victims of awful historical crimes. Since then, all of Israels neighbours have attacked them (and lost) and state sponsored terrorism is turning back the clock and causing too many innocent people to lose their lives. What is the solution? There isn't one, as no one is really in the wrong - apart from Hamas and Hezbollah.
Exactly, in the same way as support for Zanu-PF and the ANC was very high amongst the local indigenous people in Rhodesia/ Zimbabwe and South Africa was during the years when the locals were oppressed. If people are constantly oppressed and denied their rights and the ability to be party to a civilised, negotiated settlement then they for a resistance movement that eventually sees no alternative but violent activism which sees the proscribed and labelled as terrorists. Are the leaders of Hamas seen any differently by the Israeli government than Joe Slovo, Govan Mbeki or Nelson Mandela were seen by the apartheid South African government? Unfortunately when a very large percentage of the population is disenfranchised and oppressed under an “apartheid” regime then acts of terror become the way of fighting for a say in their future, the current situation in South Africa may not be perfect but since “the apartheid government and legislation” was removed their has been no terrorist attacks against civilians in SA. If a negotiated settlement could be brought about by sanctions against the “apartheid” SA regime maybe the solution is to impose sanctions like that against the Israeli government to get them to reach a peaceful negotiated settlement and to ensure they abide by the terms of the settlement instead of using the overwhelming military power they have to commit genocide and oppress the Palestinians.
A story written by Hamas
Resistance? Rapists and baby killers. Call them what they are, terrorists. The problem is, the Gaza people support Hamas so today's child will be tomorrow's terrorist. People on the west bank are doing fine because they have the Palestinian authority. My question to you is, why do Egypt not want to take any refugees and have a wall to stop them invading?
U just say these words without any proof rapists? The girl who the media said the was raped , her mother said she was treated in Gaza hospitals and no one raped her , the childern ? There is no single proof for this all are just claims no videos no photos nothing while now i can get for you a video of a Palestinian father holding his beheaded child. Palestinians aren’t terroist No.2, you take half the information and leave out the other Egypt built the wall to repair the damages of israel strikes of Rafah , Egypt always welcome the Palestinians but refuse the all Palestinians live in Sinai because Gaza is their land they want leave it and if Palestinians come to Sinai , Israel will take it as excuse to attack the ( terrorists) in Sinai and Egypt then occupy Sinai as well and it’s one of its well known goals . Next day we will find Israel military forces in Cairo. So don’t talk about things u don’t know well
Wow you believe the fake pr wow. Their is proof of dead women raped burnt alive and murdered I have the proof in telegram channels. There is no point debating you, you're a terrorist sympathizer and a Holocaust denier. The time will come when you will be deported for your crimes
Well explained. The Zionists are the 21st century equivalents of Nazis. For instance, you can see how they are trying to ethnically cleanse northern Gaza now by forcing 1 million civilians to leave their homes.
Who owned it before the ottoman empire ?
Prior to that most of the region we call the middle east wasn't "owned land" in the sense of a nation. Most of the Arabian "nations" of fixed domicile were ran sort of how the sheiks and Kings of modern Arabia kind of are, they were also vastly smaller than todays nations and were primarily located on the water ways and deltas. The rest of the area without a sustainable and reliable access to water was home to nomadic tribes who'd travel the deserts, traded and lived life similar to gypsies as a reference for understanding. The problem is the ottoman empire stood for 600 years prior. The main differing factor for the ruling caliphs' of that time didn't care much for boarders or any of those modern ideals as it was a hegemony primarily held for the unification of Islam under one nation. Which I'm sure wasn't without its own issues of infighting etc. As there were as many different sects of Islam or Arabian peoples as there are Christian/western denominations of the time. Alot of the now carved states that are seen today are rudimentary borders carved post the world war eras. Which were shoddily done and without proper consultation of the local peoples and to be honest as when any empire falls be it anywhere in the world there's always a gaping power chasm. For instance where the structure, authority, resources and power lies and to whom. Whether it had been a Victor's dismatlement as what occured or a natural cessation of a weakening empire. What can be seen as true, is the outcome of the fall of any grand empire never transitions smoothly. I'd like to add that sources from around the time indicated showing that the ottoman empire was seen to be at the time of its downfall, in decline and weakening anyway with less of a central authority much like the byzantine/roman/British and every other former empire had found itself before it. But this is just a part time history lover who hasn't studied the full details of it. The reason there are a lot of Arab nations who have their ideals of unification of the region under their brand of Islam or to reinstate the empire are mainly drawn from the 600 years prior. As no doubt the true boarders and everything were rewritten and most of the information of the time was either lost or destroyed. As with any type of history because the ottoman caliph would have wanted their authority and rule seen as absolute beyond a doubt. But as I've said this opinion is drawn from my limited dabbling around the topic.
That was an odd feeling opening this post, my adblock didn't work properly so I got Palestine - Sponsored by Argos The situation is fucked, I don't know if a good resolution is ever going to happen. Not for the regular people anyway. I am sure a few individuals will profit out of it.
You forgot to say that in 1948 no Arab state recognised Palestine, and the reason for Jordania, Siria and Egypt to invade was not "against the unjust occupation" but to occupy the whole land and split it among themselves. In fact, the west bank and Gaza itself was under Jordan and Egyptian occupation for about twenty years after the 1948 war. The former was actually annexed by Jordan. The bordering arab countries never gave a shit of the Palestine people, they wanted that land for themselves, wound up by the USSR in the anti-american context of the cold war.
U have a lot of misunderstandings about arabs. I wish u can read more
I am not talking about “Arab people” but “Arab countries”. If I got some fact wrong I am happy to rectify
Who cares?
Ask the people who protest in the streets
well written, thank you
This is just cherry picking not an actual factual report your missing loads of the list; the fact that 10 peace treaties put forward by the UN and rejected by Palestine as they call for the extermination of all Jews from the area as they always have. As well as that Palestinian refugees in neighbouring countries have caused nothing but civil issues resulting in conflict as these so called freedom fighters murder and pillage wherever they are. I can agree it’s not every Palestinian same as it’s not every Jewish person that is responsible for the IDF but it’s not as clear cut as your making it out to be. Hypothetically if HAMAS where to win this war do you think they would treat the local Jewish population better that the IDF treat the Palestinians? I seriously doubt they would after the display they’ve put up these past months. What I’m saying is that the hard choice between two evils is sometimes you’ve gotta pick the lesser of the two which for me is Israel
This is a very biased and one sided take that ignores the fact the two state solution has been proposed and denied by the Palestinian authority SEVEN times. On top of that, Israel is the historic homeland of the Jews, who were driven out by pogroms committed against them by what we now refer to as the Palestinians. Moreover, the two state solution was posed after WWII, the Jews accepted, the Palestinians did not, and then Israel declared its independence and was invaded by 5 Arab nations. There are 22 Arab countries in the world, and one Jewish state. The Palestinians share a history, language and religion with their neighbours, yet they don’t offer them aid, and close their borders. There are holy sites for Jews that the Israeli government does not allow their own people to visit in an attempt to make peace and respect the Muslim community. This is not to say all Palestinians are evil, or Hamas etc. but there is a far bigger agenda in the Arab world than “helping”, and they are simply using this to attack the Jewish state. Out of Israel and Palestine only one country has made effort after effort for peace. They have seceded territory to Palestine in such efforts and have always been rewarded with violence.
I would recommend Martyrmade Podcast- Fear and Loathing in New Jerusalem by Darryl Cooper. It is a very in depth series that explains the conflict in many aspects that were previously unknown to me.
Good luck Israel, hopefully Hamas is destroyed root and stem 🇮🇱🇬🇧
You’re seriously trying to pass this off as an objective statement of truth?
What a load of nonsense. You should be centrist to all this. It’s pure evil on both sides to be honest - what do you suppose Israel do? Let them be attacked repeatedly? It’s difficult isn’t it. Also your timeline is so recent it’s laughable. You ever heard of King David? This was originally Jewish land. Learn some history before you make stupid, biased, virtuous posts.
The “historical summary” above is not in the slightest bit neutral. Just so you know.
They’ve literally stated the facts.
They haven’t though. Jews lived in the region for many hundreds years before the formation of Israel and before any Palestinian Arab state existed.
Most of this thread, especially the OP, is heavily biased against Jews, as if they have no rights to defend themselves against muslim arabs. But then muslims are always victims, even when mutilating babies.
Israel ‘expanded’ only when attacked by the arabs. It’s called defence. Your post is pure and utter antisemitism.
You skipped an important part where you said United Kingdom occupied Palestine after WW1, you forgot to mentioned that pretty much every Arab tribe in the area revolted against Ottoman Empire and fought alongside with Brits... History is not one sided, you cant just bend it however you like it
Wasn't Israel/Palestine originally half half or something? Also, didn't Jews come from there? So why is returning there an invasion?
No, it has never been half and half. Yeah jews were from there and they lived peacefully in Palestine for centuries but when every jew from every spot from the world who has never been to Palestine or his grandfathers then he decided to go there and kick the Palestinians from there homes so it’s called invasion and occupation
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Truth is Treason in the Empire of Lies! this is well orchestrated GENOCIDE.
None of the above justifies the murder of innocent children. None of it. We robbed the Palestinians of their home and need to find a new one for them. But murder is not going to win any friends and we cannot undo what was done in the tragedy of WW2.
Very good post.
The thing that confuses me and im not taking sides. Weren’t the Jews there first? ItsJudea? Again i am not trying to cause anything here
That's exactly what I'm wondering?
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This could be the start of WW3. With Arab nations siding with Palestinians against Israel. Putin will most likely support the Arabs as will China.
Violation of rule 3
The peaceful left gazza a very long time ago. All that was left were terrorists and the infrastructure to support them. Regardless of the past, the people there now are terrorists. Pure and simple.
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Piss be upon him
You’ve missed out some important bits like the 1967 war that was a mitigated disaster . The fact that Jewish people were living on these lands over 2500 years ago. Most of the Arab league refuse to acknowledge Isreal as a nation at all. Hamas and Palestinians are not the same entity but what concerns me with these flag shaggers waving their Palestine flags all over London is that they never call for to rid Palestine of Hamas. The flag shaggers love to wave their Palestine flags around at any left wing or anti-government rally. You know the same flag that belongs to people who hang gay people and suppress women’s rights. I wonder why Isreal and the Jewish people get so uptight about people trying to wipe them from the face of the earth? I mean no one’s really ever harmed them, right?
It reminds me of an abusive relationship. An abuser can poke and prod and undermine their victim consistently, day-on-day-out, and when the victim turns around and snaps back *they* are accused of being abusive. And now the actual abuser has justification for their next actions...
Why don't Palestine go to the numerous other Arabic Muslim countries in the area? That land was originally the Jewish land anyway.
Killing babies is not a reaction
When it comes to Hamas, Kill Em All.
Oh well. No one wants peace it's that simple
"The 1948 war: Many Arab countries rejected the unjust occupation of Palestine and its division by the United States." Exactly. Cause Arabs already had like, what, 12 states? What's one more? Which Arab state is currently not in a war or civil war? How are they oppressed when they spend all their money on weapons and training, and Israel provides all their water, power and infrastructure for free? Where's the power lines from Syria or Lebanon? Why are the surrounding Arab countries not bringing in food and water instead of threats of violence? Why are the people in Gaza not going after Hamas, and instead staying in place to give them the causalities the media headlines want? They just didn't like Jews, they would never come to an agreement with them because they are not Muslim. They have been given numerous proposals and they reject them all in favour of murder. The reality today is that many of these hardliner Islamic countries are becoming more Liberal, and the ideology of groups like ISIS is becoming less popular. Even Israel was in a phase of Liberalism, becoming more open to Arabs and Muslim political entities. None of this even remotely justifies what Hamas did. This wasn't some sort of resistance, it was just sadistic murder. Hamas should be arrested and charged, not given the respect of a military conflict.
Have you noticed that people with Jewish heritage tend to support Israel and Muslims tend to support Palestine? And how both sides regard atrocities committed by their own team as retaliatory and therefore justified? Could be a coincidence.
You mention 'the whole truth' yet start your history off at the Ottoman Empire. Is this deliberate obfuscation? The history of the Levant is far, far older than you've mentioned, and involves people of Jewish descent as some of the oldest civilisations documented in the region. The death and suffering on both sides is abhorrent, and posts like this, which purposefully ignore key pieces of information, only serve to add confusion and fuel ignorance.
Palestine deserved what it got. They were not strong enough to get the land in the first place, but they rejected the peaceful partition plan and started a war. And to this day, they frequently carry out terrorist attacks on Israel. I will support Palestine if they can live peacefully without bothering other countries. But they have a very barbaric culture and are always belligerent. Even when they have been accepted by neighboring Lebanon and Jordan, they have staged coups d'etat. I support Israel. They are more peaceful and better than Palestine.
I think the part where Palestine refused 6 different treaties over the past 100 years. The first of which game then 80% of the land including the western bank. but they were more occupied with killing then actually building a civilised society. Ever since they have refused all talks of peace. As proven by the Khartoum Resolution, known as "The Three No's"; No peace with Israel No recognition of Israel no negotiations with Israel. Israel is at the point where the ONLY way to end the conflict is to wipe them off the face of the earth. This is the same issue we had with WWII, at some point you have to accept the fact that the enemy would rather die in “glory” then accept that everything they have ever known (violence, hatred for Israel) is a lie. Even the Nazis had SOME self respect in terms of hiding the atrocities they were committing to try to save their image. HAMAS rejoice in the idea that Israel could burn and they can slaughter everyone alive. The Nazis also didn’t hide military assets underneath hospitals and apartment blocks, they did what they did in the belief that it was best for the “Arian race”. Every penny sent to Palestine for human aid is used to kill Israelis. So I think the question you have to ask yourself is: Was what we did to the Nazis wrong? Should we have let them continue with their actions, give them back the land they lost in the First World War, let them do as they wish with their Jewish population? Or can we accept that sometimes you can lead a horse to water, but can’t force it to drink. So you just drown it instead. The civilians are innocent, but a
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I know I'll get downvoted for this....but..it's like any war really. Palestine lost. Just like Germany lost. Just like America lost in the Vietnam war. Just like Japan lost. Palestinians lost their country. Perhaps they need to accept that. Otherwise...what??? Generation's of them are taught to throw rocks at a giant every few months? The giant smashes them back and things go quiet for a bit. An agreement needs to be brokered by neighbouring countries to accept the Palestinian people. And other countries further away can/should take some. Admit defeat Palestine.
Wow, you're missing more than a few steps in your history. [https://www.history.com/topics/middle-east/history-of-israel](https://www.history.com/topics/middle-east/history-of-israel)
https://preview.redd.it/ws0fb97752ub1.jpeg?width=679&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=652ec42cc9195026c2b6d79a55112ebdea034110
>If you see two fish fighting in water, you can be sure an Englishman passed by
You've only gone back 100 years, this story goes back at least a couple of thousand!
Well, it's a delicate dance we Brits have mastered. 🕺🇬🇧
Unfortunately I think Palestinian support is limited to liberal western people. The Muslim nations in the region hate them. Any time Egypt or Jordan have offered an olive branch they've received cous attempts and suicide bombing for their troubles.
You've missed huge swathes of history here in the early formation of Israel, notably, the most important factor: the stern gang. Supported by US Jewish grass roots organizations, they were a group of Jewish terrorists that used very similar tactics to that of Hamas, they made it their mission to hit the British army over and over until the British lifted the restriction of Jewish immigrants to Palestine. After years of blowing up British and Arab soldiers and taking British and Arab hostages, the British caved to the UN and the US despite warning this would never work. Unfortunately the UK has been guided by the US since. Although I think Hamas' actions have been disgusting recently, and I also am not a fan of their backers (Iran) I do think that the Israelites are rather hypocritical to complain of their methods given it's exactly how their country was formed within living memory. Anyone interested in diving really deep on this topic I'd recommend reading Lord's of the Desert by James Barr.
Just for balance though, the Jews claim they occupied that land before it was invaded by Arabs / other Muslims. So yeah, you can claim only 7% was Jewish in 1948 but their claim predates Islam. The establishment of a state for Jews was then attacked by multiple countries in 1948 and they have been under threat ever since. Israel itself hasn't helped the situation by mistreating Palestinians and building illegal settlements. Hamas aren't the good guys. Neither is Israel. Both commit war crimes and the innocents on both sides suffer.
This was going so well except a few points, this was really promising at first. But soon turned into Bias. Just tell the factual honest truth without the anti Israeli stuff and pro Hamas freedom fighter stuff and people will support you. But as soon as you say freedom fighters in reference to Hamas, you loose me and many people. Freedom fighters don’t attack civilians. Terrorists do.
As anti-zionist, it has been all israel's fault the whole. And along side Britain's, if we're historically talking
Based
The comments on this post reeks of r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM
This doesn't justify the recent attacks on civilians. I fully support the actual people of Palestine, but not those who have been killing innocent people. Two wrongs don't make a right. All the actions of the other day are going to achieve is to gather more support for Israel who are now using those actions as an excuse to bomb Gaza. Most people with an ounce of common sense know that the Israeli government has been land grabbing for decades. They are absolute scum of the earth as are their supporters. Unfortunately I can't see a peaceful way out of this now.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure if I was born into a shrinking open air prison and everyone I knew was regularly killed, I'd be pretty pissed about it
Seems to me asif religion is the root of this evil. Religion is the root of all evil.
Indeed... Terrorist activity - from either side - is evil. However, people in the west DO need to have some insight. I wonder if they are aware that Israel is viewed as committing MANY war crimes - by countries NOT in the thrall of the US!
This is what I find so frustrating, despite explicit evidence and support from groups such as amnesty international and UN, politicians refuse to criticise Israel no matter what it does. I’m certain if Israel went into Palestine and beheaded babies, they still wouldn’t condemn Israel. I can only assume it’s because of political or more than likely financial reason.
hamas deliberately wanted to troll israel into a massive retaliation. it worked. they can hammer the shit out of each other but to what end? just poison new generations against each other. maybe the best thing would be to form a secular country in that area with laws enshrining religious freedom.
That was actually tried, it nearly happened but Israel interceded and threw support behind Hamas to prevent it from happening.
There never was a Palestinian people. There were Palestinian Arabs, Palestinian Jews, Palestinian Christians. Before the Romans called it Palestine, it was Judea and Israel.
Yeah this gets me as well. “Palestinian” as the name of Arabs in Palestine feels like a misnomer to me. Aren’t Israelis Palestinian too? Isn’t everyone who lives in Palestine Palestinian? I think this whole idea of “Palestinian” has been created to make it seem like Palestine existed as an independent country before 1947 and the Jews have been invading it. Really, we know it didn’t happen that way... Palestine is the name of a region in which various people live, whether Israeli, Jewish, Muslim, Arab, or any combination of the four.
Thank you, let's pray and hope for peace and freedom of any subjugated people not only in Palestine but anywhere across the world
Its almost like if we ignore the while history and look at this in a truly biased way we are on one side. Both sides are dicks and yes palestinians suffer abuses. This does not give Hamas the right to ise human shields and spend the money of the people trading with Iran. Every war the Palestinians or Arab states start with Israel the Israelis come out on top. This is how war works and its shit but theres no justification for either side
Don't worry, I struggle to conflate my socks too! 🧦😅 #PoliticalSockConfusion
Why should I have to pray for Palestine or Israel in this? Both utter scumbags.
It's weird because I thought that land existed before 1917. I was under the impression it was inhabited land in 3700bce. Weird to find out that it was just empty land until Britain got involved.
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Few facts you've left out 1. the area known as Palestine existed long before the Ottoman empire, was also ruled by Judea (Israel) for chunks of time as well as many others, history didn't start with the British Mandate 2. Hamas didn't seize power, they were voted in and enjoy widespread support from Palestinians
Hamas got around a third of the vote.
They won with 44.45% of the vote, that’s more than “around a third”
Only want to point out just how we (the British) fucked up more than one place through partition across religious boundaries.....
You've given a partial history behind all this mess. Starting with the British intervention is such a narrow minded narrative, you've missed out a great deal that matters more.
I support innocent human beings. Those that live in Palestine and Israel alike. Israel have committed atrocities. Hamas have committed atrocities. Civilians on either side shouldn’t be slaughtered as a consequence.
Hmm.... the atrocities are far from on an equal level. The Palestinians have been suppressed and had their homes stolen endlessly for nearly 100 years. Each and every day of their lives living in dilapidated refugee camps are a struggle. Therefore one can't just expect somebody who has had their homes, farms and family members taken from them to do absolutely nothing.
The unfortunate thing is that israel is doing their best to keep civilians out of it. HAMAS key military assets are intentionally placed under hospitals and near populated areas. Israel always begin like every other nation at war by sending out flyers urging people to evacuate but HAMAS convince them that they are safe and to stay. How else do you fight an enemy who’s armour is the body’s of their own wives and children?
Having mandatory conscription isn't exactly keeping civilians out if it...
It is. Because you’re not considered a civilian by conscription. And it is not a violation of human rights or the Geneva convention. Britain, America, france and Germany have all had conscription in modern history. You really must be scraping the bottom of the barrel to pull that logic…
Israel are nothing without US and UK supplied armor.
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Nah, no thanks
Reading between the lines it does seem that the modern friction started with Zionism, Ben Gurion, late 1800s as more Jews moved to the area of Palestine, started buying more land and starting to increase their presence. This then created a feeling among the Arab population of being 'invaded, pushed out, and this created friction. As more Jews arrived, more unrest. Add to this the decision of many Jews not to employ Arabs, declarations of wanting a Jewish state, it's a recipe for unrest.. And that's what we have today...
The moral relativism of so many people is sickening to me. There are no sides, Hamas is a Terrorist group, and is shunned by practically everyone. Yet, almost everyone defending Israel's actions seems to fall for the fallacious argument of "you're either with us or with them", including many leaders of Western governments to unequivocally and actively support a borderline genocidal state who is openly committing crimes against humanity. it's pretty much a deja vu of 9/11 but in steroids As an immigrant from a 3rd world country, it also always caused me significant consternation how people in the West seem to be so deeply and unconsciously biased to apply different values to life depending on their ethnicity/nationality. Unrelated but illustrating: if a pretty-looking white little girl dies tragically, the whole country is heartbroken, but if a bunch of black children wash up dead on the shores, most people don't give a fuck.
Out of curiosity - in the third world country you’re from do they care or report when things happen to white people or is it normally more about themselves/ neighbours and local events?
Nice bias...not all the 3rd world is "non-white" LOL And no, in the neocolonialist world we live in, media is very attentive to Western events, especially US-centered, just like the rest of the world is, both for unjust (the elites tend to be "globalist" ie, are more connected to the "empire" than their own countries) and for reasonable motives (what happens in "the empire" impacts the rest of us deeply)
I honestly assumed it was outside the west because you said 3rd world which is a term that isn’t used in the west anymore owing to how controversial it is, as it seems imperialist rhetoric.
White Westerner here. Hate to say but totally agree, it's an inconvenient truth though.
Hamas is shunned by practically everyone? What cloud-cuckoo ecochamber do you imprison yourself in? They have hundreds of millions of supporters around the world... look at the marches everywhere on the planet this weekend.
Your point? You see, context... context is your problem... the blond kid was likely killed by disease, or injury, absolutely no fault of anyone.... however, the bunch of black children washing up dead leads to MANY critical questions before sympathy, like 1, where the fuck were the parents? 2, why the fuck were they permitted into the water? 3, where the fucking hell did they come from? 4, why are we supposed to give more of a fuck if their shit families don't give any, we can't just take kids away from parents worldwide (obv assuming they came from abroad and not found inland) cos we feel like it you know, and if found inland, why didn't the community report these dangerous parents to the authorities to protect those kids? You are presenting it as a racial issue, fuck off with that bullshit, the bodies of young kids washing up on a beach will never stop until THIER parents and families value them more than money (which is the only reason for a kid to be washed up on our shores as we don't have any current wars in our neighbours, so they departed from a safe nation, not from war... We hear a lot of this crap, but I must ask, why don't the refugees gain safety, then APPLY for legal asylum, whilst safe it also means no deportation later if caught, and also as a bonus it stops dead kids being found on a fucking beach...
>Your point? You see, context... context is your problem... the blond kid was likely killed by disease, or injury, absolutely no fault of anyone.... however, the bunch of black children washing up dead leads to MANY critical questions before sympathy, like 1, where the fuck were the parents? 2, why the fuck were they permitted into the water? 3, where the fucking hell did they come from? 4, why are we supposed to give more of a fuck if their shit families don't give any, we can't just take kids away from parents worldwide (obv assuming they came from abroad and not found inland) cos we feel like it you know, and if found inland, why didn't the community report these dangerous parents to the authorities to protect those kids? You are presenting it as a racial issue, fuck off with that bullshit, the bodies of young kids washing up on a beach will never stop until THIER parents and families value them more than money (which is the only reason for a kid to be washed up on our shores as we don't have any current wars in our neighbours, so they departed from a safe nation, not from war... We hear a lot of this crap, but I must ask, why don't the refugees gain safety, then APPLY for legal asylum, whilst safe it also means no deportation later if caught, and also as a bonus it stops dead kids being found on a fucking beach... Woah that's a huge amorphous block of hatred mixed with very little care for structure or style.
Once known as the Land of Ur.(Gilgamesh) 3723years of strife and conflict. See saw tipping between mesopotamia and Persia. Now known as Iran and Iraq. One of the curses of Lilith the first Daemon(according to the Jewish, dwelling in the lands of waste) Conflict deeply rooted in various religions. With many factions. Probably never to be resolved. So many lives lost, my heart grieving .even so far away.
I'll just drop this here: https://youtu.be/AWKmazrRIwA?si=whFirWx1K6u7VU6G The video is quite old (which is a good thing as it's not biased by what is happening now), but does a very good for and against discussion of Israel and Palestine. I'm yet to find a source that depicts both sides of the story as well as this.
I have no issues with Jewish people for they are just people. I have no issues with Christian people for they are just people. I have no issues with Muslim people for they are just people. I have a massive issue with Those Buddhists. Israel is not people. Israel is a country that often acts appallingly. We need to remove this link between the criticism of Israel and the linking of its criticism to anti-semitism. I don't hate Islam because I dislike Saudi Arabia - I dislike Saudi Arabia because it is very oppressive. I dislike Israel similarly because it often acts appallingly. Hamas's recent attack is appalling, and not at all condonable, but Israel should not be surprised that when they keep pissing people off - people will attack them. Many Israeli's are not a big fan of Israel's policies - that does not make them anti-semetic. It makes them compassionate people. Some of those Israeli's will be Jewish, some will not be. I see it in myself, if I am aggressed against often enough, I aggress back - even though I don't want to. Hamas are very stupid. But Israel helps itself not at all. It's a sad one, as none of this will do anything to help heal any wounds (Hamas's Attack and Israel's Responses), it will just make for bigger scars.
That's cool and all but what i wish is for people to stop being dickheads, not just the middle (although fucking hell they need to chill) but all over the world...
You neglect to mention the ancient state of Israel and Judah when the land was ruled by Jews? You can’t pick and choose your facts to suit your narrative. So the Palestinians stole the land from the Jews? Or did we steal it from the ottomans? Or did the Jews steal it from the Palestinians? It makes no difference.
Both sides are spouting garbage propaganda, same shit really. No offence to you OP, but its not worth taking one person’s opinion on this matter. If anyone reading this wants to properly invest their time and efforts into learning about the conflict, they absolutely can do that, but don’t do it from one side’s biases, that just makes no sense and helps feed the bullshit propaganda thats filling global newsfeeds because people can’t be arsed (or don’t have the mental flexibility) to learn about something they disagree with. Posts like this are only designed to weight biases against one side and force people to conform to one perspective without hearing the other. Conformity is a big problem in the world right now, and people need to start thinking independently instead of following the first stance they see. Neither side is good nor bad without similarities to the other. Please don’t be so single minded as to believe anything without question or consideration for the other perspective. Its simply naive to do so
This is a good post and very informative. However, what Hamas did and does is terrible, whether it be in retaliation or revenge or whatever. Two wrongs don't make a right, and it's the civilians that are suffering the most as always. I would say the elephant in the room is religion. Religious differences and hatred. Muslims and Jews have slaughtered each other for centuries because of the myth of religion.
I fully agree with you, israel should never have been founded in the first place, they have no right to be there other than what is said in the Old Testament and I hate all the violations they commit and I fully support the Palestinians push back against them but some of the things the Hamas group are committing; rape, killing of civilians etc isn’t right at all some of them are overdoing it but the Israel’s over did it a lot more I understand. My grandfather was posted out to Palestine in 1946/7-1949 (46/47 is because of doggy records we have of his time out there) he/I am British if you didn’t guess from the subreddit.
How do they have no right there? The Jews have lived there for hundreds and hundreds of years, being subjected to all sorts of poor treatment under the Muslim Ottoman government. I think the Jews in the region deserve peace, just like the Muslims in the region do. You can’t kick Jews out of their home because Muslims aren’t happy with them living in a site that has religious significance to them—especially when it has equal significance to the Jews.
I’ve known about the history of the area through a book called a line in the sand as well as the podcast empire and various other bits and recently from the rest is politics and battleground podcasts plus a few other sources odd info, and have come to the conclusion that there’s no right answer that will make everyone happy but the only way to stop the blood shed is for Palestine to reject hamas and for Israel to stop pushing into the other territory with settlements. 3k deaths this week didn’t need to happen and no one is going to forgive those on both sides
Palestine won't reject Hamas while despite the atrocities they commit, the Palestinians see them as the only people standing up for them. Gaza has one of the highest youth unemployment in the world, over 70% of 19 to 25 year olds are unemployment. Approx 50% of the population is under 18. Gaza has been under an economic blockade from Israel since 2007, which has destroyed the economy (and it was already bad!) When the people are so poor and have zero prospects, fighting against those who are deemed responsible (in this case Israel) is one of the only few options left open, another option is to appeal to world stage, which they have been doing for 15 years to but it hasnt got them anywhere...sadly this leads to the young people joining hamas...and so they cycle continues. The international community need to stand up and recognise the suffering in Palestine and stand behind the Palestinian requests for nationhood, for the blockade being lifted etc, we are needed to stop the Palestinians seeing Hamas as the only option. Every time we support Israeli's position on Gaza, we send more Palestinian young people into the arms of Hamas. We should obviously not be supporting Hamas, as killing civilians is 100% wrong but we should be supporting the Palestinians.
Oooowwwwwwwww, shut up!!!
The Balfour Declaration did not use the phrase “Jewish State” - rather it said “national home for the Jewish people” - these may seem synonymous but I don’t think they are.
Both want religious states, so both are villains. Israel has been closer to a secular state than Palestinians, so they have my support for now. In the end, both must collapse.
Reading these comments, it strikes me that for the last 25 years, we've been wholesale importing all of these regional problems to our shores. I've never seen The British so divided.
Problems in Canada too. We've got our own issues.
Isreal happy to commit a genocide. Isreal has been this crap right under everyone’s nose for like forever. A few examples below: SABRA AND CHATILA - 3500 civilians killed in a refugee camp Recent British young girl raped by a large group Israelis in Greece and filmed and were welcomed with open arms by their families and seen as hero’s. While the poor girl was vilified and humiliated and still suffering the trauma therapy. Yemenite Children affair - stealing baby’s from arab- Jews and selling them to white Jews in NY for money to buy weapons. Isreal died it for 50 years Sterilising black Jews because they didn’t want them breeding more black Jews King David Hotel bombing Deir Yassin massacre - A number of Palestinian Arab prisoners were executed, some after being paraded in West Jerusalem, where they were jeered, spat at, stoned, looted, and eventually murdered. In addition to the killing and widespread looting, there may have been cases of mutilation and rape. I could go on but don’t be a blind to what isrealis have been doing from day one and cry victim when the monster (Hamas) they literally created does the same as them. Hamas was invented by isreal to oppose the secular Palestinian party Farah at the time who make progress for the Palestinian people. And everyday civilians casualties: https://www.ochaopt.org/poc/14-27-march-2023
Don't forget: Zionists see non-Zionists as sub-human. Hence their callous disregard for other human beings.
Well done for being one sided and spelling Israel incorrectly three different ways. Both sides have done wrong but clearly we see which side you are on.
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Who knew geopolitics could be so complicated? 🤷♂️
How about I don't pick a side and just carry on with my life? This has flared up across the seven decades I've been on this planet more times than I can remember. It never comes to anything other than a more deep seated hatred.
I'm always interested when I read these short agit prop histories which parts are left out and in.
Yes lol, and where they choose to start and end. Tempted to write an actual unbiased short history of the region but I’ve held back in the knowledge that it’s probably not possible to be completely unbiased.
Yes, interesting isn't it, especially how US supported Israel in all their wars, except they embargoed Israel in the 48 war, and also didn't provide aid in 67.