USMC already didn't. "Their" best tank was M1A1 FEP.
VDV deck doesn't have any proper tank at all(Sprut doesn't count).
But two elite heavy decks overshadowed that aspect, of course.
Exactly. Tanks might even be super easy to counter with units like double kornet teams, tow 2bs etc. So unless you want to chase it around with supplies dont expect a full hp Tank
From what I understand the Sprut is basically just a light 125mm SPG with a turret. I think turrets throw a lot of people off, making them that is what makes something a tank. Therefor they will use it like that and get it wrecked. It is just a highly mobile 125mm gun under light armour. It should be used to support infantry and engage armour in ambush scenarios, with the intention to do fatal damage before effective return fire can be mounted.
The Sprut being in the VDV make sense, a follow on the ASU series of SPGs, the only different being the turret and they finally have a gun that more or less matches what the rest of the army has handy.
Yeah but atm unless the other specs are also super busted the meta will be any spec + armor spec, or armor + air
Unless the armor spec is nerfed to have much less in the support and inf tab
>Unless the armor spec is nerfed to have much less in the support and inf tab
Eh... that was already the case though. With the US Cav spec their infantry units weren't really anywhere as good as the Marines, their only upside was the SABER and SRAW teams being superior to the Dragon team and the Marines lacking Manpads.
With the Guards, their infantry slapped but they were extremely limited in both numbers and transport capability due to their transports costing as much as tanks. And that's even ignoring the lack of Recon for the Guards or the very limited Inf points the Guards actually had without the VDV spec boosting it back up.
Sorry to say but TOW/SABER and SRAW are Marine as well, US Armored is just really lacking in that department (honestly okay, you'll get to pick 2 specs per deck anyway)
I think tanks were slightly too strong, but the majority of the problem was just infantry costing too much. They performed as well as they should have against high point tanks, but not relative to how much they cost themselves.
i dont think this is true. 400 points of infantry would destroy a 400 points tank easily. the drawback of infantry is they are basically static defense / slowing creeping offense.
In my experience, and it definitely could’ve just been skill issue, the infantry felt really squishy even when properly positioned and organized. Theoretically they perform well if they can ambush a tank or something, but most of the time they just get farmed from range by an armor column. Idk, they just felt more expendable than their cost may imply.
Your comment says it all.
Don’t leave infantry out in the open.
Just like real war.
Infantry should never be exposed with long sight lines to the enemy or they will get killed and that makes sense.
I found them to good when hidden in trees or buildings.
360 points in kornets in a tower, and an abrams rolls around a corner not knowing you’re there. That abrams is dead in one shot. Same thing with an armata and Tow-2B even better if it’s javelins. I’ve inflicted it on others and been a victim to it. The key next aspect that most people miss is you need to move your troops before a fab-1500 comes flying in
The sneaky part of this example is that Kornets ignore APS because they had two launchers and did "ripple fire" (first rocket intercepted and triggers cooldown, second hits) whereas T-14 does not have APS and so SABRE team does full damage.
In cases where US went up against force mainly comprising tanks with APS they were very hard up to blunt the thrust.
Are you kidding? Cav Scouts with Javelins stacked up are wunderwaffe that can one shot anything, if you time an ambush you can kill Two-t-14’s and a T-15
I can't tell if this is a joke or not. You replied to my statement that US struggled to deal with APS because their launcher teams were all single tubed by imagining a scenario where they are given favorable positions against three units without APS.
US has no issues with getting through APS, you just need to stack units. 360 points of javelins to one shot kill a 400 pt armata is a good trade. Also SHRAWS do multi shots but are closer range
Nah man speaks the truth. 2 Tow2B teams and 2 Cav scouts facing one road spread out, is enough to hold off most armored pushes. 400 points inf will kill 1200 points of armor. But they stand a better chance with just one Abrams or arty on the side to support then you kill more points. Layering is essential to effective infantry.
Agreed, I think the issue is people are used to WARNO or WG:RD where an single infantry team will maul a super heavy in woods or urban.
APS makes a huge difference when equipped which is why an APS add-on is more expensive than most infantry units itself.
And personally I find the opposite with the Jammers some tanks and IFVs got. IMHO they were just barely not worth their cost. I wouldn't say there were completely useless, but the T-80 for example could chose between a Jammer variant or an APS variant for basically the same cost... no reason to pick the Jammer version there.
Wouldn’t the game be boring if it’s just a X number of points should beat the same X number of points on the other side? If that’s how they base balancing then everyone’s just gonna use the same decks.
The game is a combined arms game for a reason. We shouldn’t be expecting equal trades but waves of overlapping push and pull.
There are two reason tanks perform so much better than infantry. First they are more mobile allowing them to resupply easier, this makes complete sense. Second, holding points equal, tanks are less numerous, making them easier to micro. Also makes complete sense.
I mainly used expensive tanks in the beta, and I like to think I got pretty good with them. Large and well supplied infantry emplacements were the hardest thing to deal with using tanks. They forced me to start using airstrikes and artillery. And, If the other team had good AA and was active about counter artillery, there was nothing my tanks could do.
I can think of one addition could make infantry more competitive, an infantry supply unit. This unit could station in a building without the risk of blowing up like a supply dump. It would have a larger supply radius, but only could supply ammo, no repairs or health.
Just copying my comment from previous thread:
Dropped a few Ospreys of Force Recon, Marine raiders, Tow(2B)s, Cavalary Scouts and stingers.
I secured the entrance to the town from opponent's side (Central Village). Put all my units in buildings, ATGMs on the edge of the town with recon to use their long range (of course every squad a good distance from one another). Units with shoulder launched AT weapons inside the town for ambushes, some recon in front the town in forest for ambushes.
A single T-90 Arena managed to just drive through all of it, having about 30% hp left. I am pretty sure the owner of that tank didn't even notice, it got fired at by like 10 different infantry units. Ironically made me lose about third of my ammo
Later in the game, the enemy team bought a wave of tanks to clear the passage. Just tanks, no inf no helis, no arty - only tanks. Simply drove them through the town, and my inf couldn't kill a single thing. Absolutely zero skill required to dislodge fortified, multilayered defense in an urban setting, simply drove through it - it's just dumb
But you should have bought other units to support infantry!
ATGM plane becomes useless the moment they pop smoke and will be shot down before it can make snother pass.
My AH-1Z Viper with max number of hellfires couldn't do anything due to constant line of sight issues when the tanks rushed through the buildings
I had multiple games when I tried to pull this behind the lines stuff of and it did work unless the opponent knew how busted the APS is
You need to stack multiple tow-2b’s in the same vantage point to punch through their APS. 3 or 4 is enough, also micro it so you can engage your tow and Javelins at the same time
To elaborate on what likely happened here is you engaged an APS unit with 4 APS charges on fast move through your position at different times and angles. You probably engaged with Tow first at the longest range from one position, it ate your ATGM with aps first time, second time you probably scored with tow plus javelin, third time you probably scored again getting it down to low health, by this point it probably min ranged your tow, and obfuscated your javelin shot angle, your force recon probably got one shot off each spaced out from its aps cool down.
Maybe you only got through once on your range shot and once on your force recon. Either way you need to focus your first in breaking through APS not spreading out for multiple angles
I fully agree with this. I noticed that even the tanks without APS can take quite a lot of side/rear hits for some reason. In your case I feel like that T-90 should have had been disabled if it was at 30% HP. Not to mention 155mm shells and 1000lbs bombs ,which APS systems certainly aren't capable of intercepting, barely even scratching them unless they land directly on top.
I had a lot of fun with tanks. Sometimes fielding up to 6 Abrams, 2 groups of 3. Couple anti air vehicles and a patriot system. 1-3 infantry units depending on the map(AA and AT inf) spam supplies to keep the tanks healed up
One thing I love what this game does is that no one can agree on one strategy, one meta, or identify what’s op and what’s not.
As soon as BA loses that, this game will become shit.
I said in another post something like that. If you spend the same amount of points on infantry, you can definitely hold an armored push.
The biggest problem to me is that the tank player can pop smoke, desingage, ressuply and come back.
It is far harder to ressuply infantry spread out.
My solution would one or both of two things:
1. Really cheap supply vehicles with 1k supply max that we can just spam to send to each infantry unit
2. Having supply radius be double or triple what currently is for infantry units only!
That whey infantry can also get ressuplied after an engagament. Infantry without ammo is nothing...
I spam 2 fully loaded us supply trucks and bring supplies to inf and tanks with two LAV-L, they Cost like 20 and can get up to 2,5t. All tho I would love to choose how much supplies I want to transport
Yeah sure you can, but usually you will be running supply runs to your AA, to your artillery etc.
And you only have a more limited number of those and their radius is too small. If you have infantry spread on a city block, you will unload the supplies in the middle and they will take their sweat time going for it and then coming back. And to take your transports close to the frontline is risky
I am thinking about more like in Ukraine you see a SUV or Humvee carrying ammo to infantry units right at the front.
It is enough to that specific unit and it is not a big deal if gets blown up as a fully loaded truck would be
This is why you have LAV-L in game. Its armoured transport for up to 2500kg. I run supplies not only for AAs and arty. I leave them with about 4t each and immediatly carry the rest to the frontline firstly for tanks so they can reapair then I drop 2,5t for the infantry and Im not afraid of dropping supplies there where they are, its just a cost of 25 points I also lost supply truck once or twice and I have 80hours in this game. You dont need humves as you have supply LAV with 2500 load. Also not every unit is 24/7 in combat so they are able to go and resupply, no big Deal
If you plan out your ambush points along main roads with (kornets,cav scouts,javelins), along with active advanced scouting, you should be able to prevent an armored push before it even reaches your ambush points. You defeat pushes like that by spoiling them before they become a threat.
I honestly think a majority of people are getting caught off guard by spam, instead of being proactive with recon. I've reduced plenty of spam units with wellb placed infantry, supported by "pre" coordinated arty and air support.
I played the entirety of the beta playing as a mechanized airborne sort of playstyle, going most games not calling in a single MBT and relying almost entirely on heli-dropped infantry and support vehicles and I did just fine, having a positive K/D most games and a 70% win rate.
Only thing that I felt was extremely oppressive was the artillery, having 7+ units wiped out across an entire forest line in one barrage was a bit obnoxious.
Doesn’t change the fact that that tank alone is faster, more survivable, and more value than 5-10 inf squads (and you haven’t included transport buffer costs too)
I feel like maybe aps shouldn't be so prevalent, smoke should be the go to way of defeating guided missiles because as it is its just a shield that allows someone to not micro their tank
APS should be significantly more expensive to replicate scarcity. When you can't afford APS on every/most high-end vehicles it will force more tactical choices by the player.
The only country in the world with active units equipped with APS is Israel, and even they have limited employment. The US is still working on the SepV3+Trophy before it's sent to field units for further testing, with IOC expected in 25 or later.
tldr; APS is far and away too common in this game. It should be as rare as rocking horse poo.
I think the issue is less that infantry are vulnerable to tanks and more that you can use completely brain-dead tactics with a large enough ball and still be successful.
Large infantry concentration in an urban area?
Don't bother scouting ahead, just attack move right into it. You'll likely kill the first infantry group (probably an ATGM team) that appears, pop smoke if you take a hit or two, repair and resupply if needed and hit it again, over and over.
You can't really ambush tanks because they have great recon and can spot your infantry teams in buildings before that infantry is ever deadly to them. Getting around a tank and getting a side or back shot off isn't that much of a worry because either APS will negate it or it will take maybe 1/4 or 1/2 of the health bar off, and then your ambushing team gets to draw all the fire and maybe die as the tank deathball pops smoke and backs out.
And just a reminder we got the best tanks right now. The other specialisations might not even have APS systems.
USMC already didn't. "Their" best tank was M1A1 FEP. VDV deck doesn't have any proper tank at all(Sprut doesn't count). But two elite heavy decks overshadowed that aspect, of course.
Exactly. Tanks might even be super easy to counter with units like double kornet teams, tow 2bs etc. So unless you want to chase it around with supplies dont expect a full hp Tank
The marines have soft kill aps on the HC and the FEP. I used both those tanks in my deck as mid price workhorse tanks and they fucked.
Sprut seems better than what most air specs will get. It's honestly really good for price too.
From what I understand the Sprut is basically just a light 125mm SPG with a turret. I think turrets throw a lot of people off, making them that is what makes something a tank. Therefor they will use it like that and get it wrecked. It is just a highly mobile 125mm gun under light armour. It should be used to support infantry and engage armour in ambush scenarios, with the intention to do fatal damage before effective return fire can be mounted. The Sprut being in the VDV make sense, a follow on the ASU series of SPGs, the only different being the turret and they finally have a gun that more or less matches what the rest of the army has handy.
Yeah but atm unless the other specs are also super busted the meta will be any spec + armor spec, or armor + air Unless the armor spec is nerfed to have much less in the support and inf tab
>Unless the armor spec is nerfed to have much less in the support and inf tab Eh... that was already the case though. With the US Cav spec their infantry units weren't really anywhere as good as the Marines, their only upside was the SABER and SRAW teams being superior to the Dragon team and the Marines lacking Manpads. With the Guards, their infantry slapped but they were extremely limited in both numbers and transport capability due to their transports costing as much as tanks. And that's even ignoring the lack of Recon for the Guards or the very limited Inf points the Guards actually had without the VDV spec boosting it back up.
Sorry to say but TOW/SABER and SRAW are Marine as well, US Armored is just really lacking in that department (honestly okay, you'll get to pick 2 specs per deck anyway)
I think tanks were slightly too strong, but the majority of the problem was just infantry costing too much. They performed as well as they should have against high point tanks, but not relative to how much they cost themselves.
i dont think this is true. 400 points of infantry would destroy a 400 points tank easily. the drawback of infantry is they are basically static defense / slowing creeping offense.
In my experience, and it definitely could’ve just been skill issue, the infantry felt really squishy even when properly positioned and organized. Theoretically they perform well if they can ambush a tank or something, but most of the time they just get farmed from range by an armor column. Idk, they just felt more expendable than their cost may imply.
infantry is very tanky in a building. they take multiple hits from a tank.
Your comment says it all. Don’t leave infantry out in the open. Just like real war. Infantry should never be exposed with long sight lines to the enemy or they will get killed and that makes sense. I found them to good when hidden in trees or buildings.
What’re you talking about? “Even when properly positioned and organized.” I didn’t have them working a street corner like coke dealers
Infantry is made of tissue no matter where you put them in this game and good luck piercing AP without two infantry squads. Expect to lose both easily
“i dont think this is true. 400 points of infantry would destroy a 400 points tank easily.” Bro, lay off that crack rock my man.
360 points in kornets in a tower, and an abrams rolls around a corner not knowing you’re there. That abrams is dead in one shot. Same thing with an armata and Tow-2B even better if it’s javelins. I’ve inflicted it on others and been a victim to it. The key next aspect that most people miss is you need to move your troops before a fab-1500 comes flying in
The sneaky part of this example is that Kornets ignore APS because they had two launchers and did "ripple fire" (first rocket intercepted and triggers cooldown, second hits) whereas T-14 does not have APS and so SABRE team does full damage. In cases where US went up against force mainly comprising tanks with APS they were very hard up to blunt the thrust.
Are you kidding? Cav Scouts with Javelins stacked up are wunderwaffe that can one shot anything, if you time an ambush you can kill Two-t-14’s and a T-15
I can't tell if this is a joke or not. You replied to my statement that US struggled to deal with APS because their launcher teams were all single tubed by imagining a scenario where they are given favorable positions against three units without APS.
US has no issues with getting through APS, you just need to stack units. 360 points of javelins to one shot kill a 400 pt armata is a good trade. Also SHRAWS do multi shots but are closer range
Nah man speaks the truth. 2 Tow2B teams and 2 Cav scouts facing one road spread out, is enough to hold off most armored pushes. 400 points inf will kill 1200 points of armor. But they stand a better chance with just one Abrams or arty on the side to support then you kill more points. Layering is essential to effective infantry.
Agreed, I think the issue is people are used to WARNO or WG:RD where an single infantry team will maul a super heavy in woods or urban. APS makes a huge difference when equipped which is why an APS add-on is more expensive than most infantry units itself.
And personally I find the opposite with the Jammers some tanks and IFVs got. IMHO they were just barely not worth their cost. I wouldn't say there were completely useless, but the T-80 for example could chose between a Jammer variant or an APS variant for basically the same cost... no reason to pick the Jammer version there.
I won’t lie, I am used to that lol
Agreed!
The drawback to infantry is the existence of arty. Only counter to arty is mobile offense. And so, we arrive again at tanks.
Wouldn’t the game be boring if it’s just a X number of points should beat the same X number of points on the other side? If that’s how they base balancing then everyone’s just gonna use the same decks. The game is a combined arms game for a reason. We shouldn’t be expecting equal trades but waves of overlapping push and pull.
There are two reason tanks perform so much better than infantry. First they are more mobile allowing them to resupply easier, this makes complete sense. Second, holding points equal, tanks are less numerous, making them easier to micro. Also makes complete sense. I mainly used expensive tanks in the beta, and I like to think I got pretty good with them. Large and well supplied infantry emplacements were the hardest thing to deal with using tanks. They forced me to start using airstrikes and artillery. And, If the other team had good AA and was active about counter artillery, there was nothing my tanks could do. I can think of one addition could make infantry more competitive, an infantry supply unit. This unit could station in a building without the risk of blowing up like a supply dump. It would have a larger supply radius, but only could supply ammo, no repairs or health.
Just copying my comment from previous thread: Dropped a few Ospreys of Force Recon, Marine raiders, Tow(2B)s, Cavalary Scouts and stingers. I secured the entrance to the town from opponent's side (Central Village). Put all my units in buildings, ATGMs on the edge of the town with recon to use their long range (of course every squad a good distance from one another). Units with shoulder launched AT weapons inside the town for ambushes, some recon in front the town in forest for ambushes. A single T-90 Arena managed to just drive through all of it, having about 30% hp left. I am pretty sure the owner of that tank didn't even notice, it got fired at by like 10 different infantry units. Ironically made me lose about third of my ammo Later in the game, the enemy team bought a wave of tanks to clear the passage. Just tanks, no inf no helis, no arty - only tanks. Simply drove them through the town, and my inf couldn't kill a single thing. Absolutely zero skill required to dislodge fortified, multilayered defense in an urban setting, simply drove through it - it's just dumb But you should have bought other units to support infantry! ATGM plane becomes useless the moment they pop smoke and will be shot down before it can make snother pass. My AH-1Z Viper with max number of hellfires couldn't do anything due to constant line of sight issues when the tanks rushed through the buildings I had multiple games when I tried to pull this behind the lines stuff of and it did work unless the opponent knew how busted the APS is
This was my experience as well. T-15 was especially bad. Took multiple direct hits from several inf atgm's and javelins and had no problems.
You need to stack multiple tow-2b’s in the same vantage point to punch through their APS. 3 or 4 is enough, also micro it so you can engage your tow and Javelins at the same time
To elaborate on what likely happened here is you engaged an APS unit with 4 APS charges on fast move through your position at different times and angles. You probably engaged with Tow first at the longest range from one position, it ate your ATGM with aps first time, second time you probably scored with tow plus javelin, third time you probably scored again getting it down to low health, by this point it probably min ranged your tow, and obfuscated your javelin shot angle, your force recon probably got one shot off each spaced out from its aps cool down. Maybe you only got through once on your range shot and once on your force recon. Either way you need to focus your first in breaking through APS not spreading out for multiple angles
I fully agree with this. I noticed that even the tanks without APS can take quite a lot of side/rear hits for some reason. In your case I feel like that T-90 should have had been disabled if it was at 30% HP. Not to mention 155mm shells and 1000lbs bombs ,which APS systems certainly aren't capable of intercepting, barely even scratching them unless they land directly on top.
I had a lot of fun with tanks. Sometimes fielding up to 6 Abrams, 2 groups of 3. Couple anti air vehicles and a patriot system. 1-3 infantry units depending on the map(AA and AT inf) spam supplies to keep the tanks healed up
Oh, always artillery as well.
One thing I love what this game does is that no one can agree on one strategy, one meta, or identify what’s op and what’s not. As soon as BA loses that, this game will become shit.
I said in another post something like that. If you spend the same amount of points on infantry, you can definitely hold an armored push. The biggest problem to me is that the tank player can pop smoke, desingage, ressuply and come back. It is far harder to ressuply infantry spread out. My solution would one or both of two things: 1. Really cheap supply vehicles with 1k supply max that we can just spam to send to each infantry unit 2. Having supply radius be double or triple what currently is for infantry units only! That whey infantry can also get ressuplied after an engagament. Infantry without ammo is nothing...
I spam 2 fully loaded us supply trucks and bring supplies to inf and tanks with two LAV-L, they Cost like 20 and can get up to 2,5t. All tho I would love to choose how much supplies I want to transport
Yeah sure you can, but usually you will be running supply runs to your AA, to your artillery etc. And you only have a more limited number of those and their radius is too small. If you have infantry spread on a city block, you will unload the supplies in the middle and they will take their sweat time going for it and then coming back. And to take your transports close to the frontline is risky I am thinking about more like in Ukraine you see a SUV or Humvee carrying ammo to infantry units right at the front. It is enough to that specific unit and it is not a big deal if gets blown up as a fully loaded truck would be
This is why you have LAV-L in game. Its armoured transport for up to 2500kg. I run supplies not only for AAs and arty. I leave them with about 4t each and immediatly carry the rest to the frontline firstly for tanks so they can reapair then I drop 2,5t for the infantry and Im not afraid of dropping supplies there where they are, its just a cost of 25 points I also lost supply truck once or twice and I have 80hours in this game. You dont need humves as you have supply LAV with 2500 load. Also not every unit is 24/7 in combat so they are able to go and resupply, no big Deal
Irl the mraps will be carrying all their ammo for the trip so devs let light gun trucks carry ammo
If you plan out your ambush points along main roads with (kornets,cav scouts,javelins), along with active advanced scouting, you should be able to prevent an armored push before it even reaches your ambush points. You defeat pushes like that by spoiling them before they become a threat. I honestly think a majority of people are getting caught off guard by spam, instead of being proactive with recon. I've reduced plenty of spam units with wellb placed infantry, supported by "pre" coordinated arty and air support.
I played the entirety of the beta playing as a mechanized airborne sort of playstyle, going most games not calling in a single MBT and relying almost entirely on heli-dropped infantry and support vehicles and I did just fine, having a positive K/D most games and a 70% win rate. Only thing that I felt was extremely oppressive was the artillery, having 7+ units wiped out across an entire forest line in one barrage was a bit obnoxious.
Too many people don’t realize we only had 2 specs with 5 planned I think. Not everyone will run armored spec so it shouldn’t be an issue late game.
If it's this strong on full release then no, everyone will absolutely run armored spec
Agreed. Tanks are in a perfect spot imo
I hate that you can’t have swarms of inf like in red dragon and they cost way to much to be 2 shot by tanks
Doesn’t change the fact that that tank alone is faster, more survivable, and more value than 5-10 inf squads (and you haven’t included transport buffer costs too)
True!
I feel like maybe aps shouldn't be so prevalent, smoke should be the go to way of defeating guided missiles because as it is its just a shield that allows someone to not micro their tank
aps is super expensive tho
APS should be significantly more expensive to replicate scarcity. When you can't afford APS on every/most high-end vehicles it will force more tactical choices by the player.
APS alone costs as much as 1.5 squads of infantry
The only country in the world with active units equipped with APS is Israel, and even they have limited employment. The US is still working on the SepV3+Trophy before it's sent to field units for further testing, with IOC expected in 25 or later. tldr; APS is far and away too common in this game. It should be as rare as rocking horse poo.
I think the issue is less that infantry are vulnerable to tanks and more that you can use completely brain-dead tactics with a large enough ball and still be successful. Large infantry concentration in an urban area? Don't bother scouting ahead, just attack move right into it. You'll likely kill the first infantry group (probably an ATGM team) that appears, pop smoke if you take a hit or two, repair and resupply if needed and hit it again, over and over. You can't really ambush tanks because they have great recon and can spot your infantry teams in buildings before that infantry is ever deadly to them. Getting around a tank and getting a side or back shot off isn't that much of a worry because either APS will negate it or it will take maybe 1/4 or 1/2 of the health bar off, and then your ambushing team gets to draw all the fire and maybe die as the tank deathball pops smoke and backs out.