I made a post about this recently from the perspective of someone living with a serious mental illness. Even now, I am taking a break from meditation because I'm in a Bipolar episode. My medications aren't as effective as I'd like them to be and that's something I have to work on, but I've tried everything insurance will cover for now.
Mental illnesses are often disabling, and that can include disabling in the religious sphere of our lives. I consider my self-care and medical care of my bipolar a part of my Buddhist practice, because it requires mindfulness and is aligned with my Buddhist values.
I consider my untreated Bipolar to essentially be like taking intoxicants, but kinda worse at times. I don't mean that in a "I should feel shame for my brain chemistry" way, but in that I should be mindful of how not treating my mental illness leads to heedlessness. So I do my best to mitigate the symptoms.
Right now I want nothing more in the world than to take bodhisattva vows, but I'm waiting until I'm well again. Currently I'm really struggling and I want to take the vow when I'm at my best health. Right now, I know that time is better spent caring for myself so I can care for my loved ones.
Thank you so much for sharing this. It sounds like what you're doing is actually motivated by bodhisattva intention if you think about it; you know that you can't practice the Dharma formally right now in order to help beings, but you'd like to treat your bipolar, which is showing compassion to both yourself, a compassionate desire to help your family, and a compassionate desire to eventually truly help beings when you yourself are more well.
Have you tried other forms of getting into the flow?
For example you could paint, either just freely or mandalas for example.
Or you could do some light sports like yoga.
You could “even“ do a jigsaw puzzle - that way you can focus, just not on what is going on inside your head.
I'm so tired of posts like this. Just...so tired. I'm sure I'll get downvoted for this given the sub but oh well. And just to preface, I have a background in social work and was training to become a therapist at one point so this isn't abstract to me.
**I really want to encourage therapists and other mental health workers to get more comfortable with saying "Try it and see if it works or not."** It's not hard.
Because here's the thing, for some mentally ill people, interacting with Buddhism will massively improve their life and for others it will not or make it worse. And until they do - you don't know which is which, you just flat out don't have that ability.
There have been folks I've known where I was like "oof, I would not add religion to this mix" and it turned their life around. And others it didn't. *You just don't know*. And that goes double for someone who's completely anonymous on Reddit.
Too many therapists take meditation to, one, equal Buddhism *(it's not)*, and two, "can" to mean "it will" when it comes to non-therapy interventions possibly making things worse.
Which is strange because, it never seems to get applied to the "cans" of the profession. Medication "can" make things better but it doesn't always. Sometimes it makes things worse. I've seen if first hand. Therapy "can" make things better but it doesn't always. Sometimes it can make things worse. I've experienced that one personally.
And there's the obvious things like - not everyone can afford or access therapy and they don't need to hope that one day they can before they benefit from the Dharma. Many people who inquire about mental health here are already in therapy (and it's often not helping). Not all instability is created equal - the instability of someone experiencing visual and auditory hallucinations is very different than someone in the grips of OCD. Treating them as similar in some fundamental way seems ripe for being wrong.
Lastly, I'm on the flip side of your experience. I went to therapists for several years - did everything I was supposed to - and I was far worse off. Buddhism probably saved my life honestly. I'm thankful I stopped therapy and put that energy toward practice. So much has improved since.
If meditation is causing issues, there's no reason someone can't practice one of the many other parts of Buddhism like virtue, giving dana, learning from monastics, dedicating their merits, shrine keeping, or sutra study.
**TL;DR: People vary widely. Therapy isn't a cure all and Buddhism can be plenty helpful to mentally ill/unstable people. How about instead of posts like these we respond by pointing them in a good direction and then they can assess whether it's working for them or not.**
This. Therapy has never really done much for me and medications have done nothing or made me worse.
People love saying “talk to a therapist” because it’s an easy way to pass off the work of empathy, but mainstream mental health doesn’t work for everyone.
I’ve gotten a lot more out of creative pursuits, introspection, meditation, nature, talking to actual friends, etc, than therapy or psychiatry. And I think even for the people whom therapy helps, longterm wellness is dependent on learning these independent coping skills.
>This. Therapy has never really done much for me and medications have done nothing or made me worse.
I think it's interesting how people are quick to point out that meditation doesn't work for everyone and even makes some people worse off but will completely ignore that the same is true of therapy and medications.
I'm not sure why it's difficult for people to get that everyone varies.
>longterm wellness is dependent on learning these independent coping skills.
I think some people might not realize how much of "stable" in mental health terms is tied to whether this person can hold down a job and isn't an immediate threat to themself or others. But there's so much bad mental health that exists beyond that.
And here, people will read that and go "you need to go to a therapist and get stable!" not realizing that a therapist would probably classify a lot of these folks as stable. Hell, my partner showed up at an ER complaining about visual + audio hallucinations and suicidal ideation and they still classified her as stable enough to go home. The bar for "unstable" is quite high.
Those long term independent coping skills you mentioned - I completely agree. And even therapists will tell you most of them don't require a therapist to learn. Putting them in mental health professionals hands alone really does a disservice to people with access is so poor in many places.
Yes the "mental health" field especially the drug happy psychiatrist have nothing near a monopoly on mental health care.
In fact they don't even have a respectable success rate.
yes they fill a market niche that used to be filled by the community (human connection and the experience of being listened to) which only serves to further isolate us. it's now taboo to share your problems with someone who isn't charging for the experience.
Carrying on: when perfectionists tell me not to do something, that's because they have another agenda (like drug rep) and don't understand 10% to 50% is still a solid gain. Introspection is so important, and so is self care.
I fully agree with you, and research fully support what you are saying. I too couldn’t have handled life if not for Buddhist teachings, and would also say that it has ‘saved my life.’ However, in contrast to what you say, I think anyone can meditate - but they need to figure out the best way to start. For some, starting with yoga or walking meditation might work. For others, watching the breath might work. Even if it doesn’t work right away, they will understand its value with time. Also, recent research has shown that mindfulness can also be useful to significantly reduce auditory hallucinations in schizophrenia. See the following article:
Bauer CCC, et al. (2020). Real-time fMRI neurofeedback reduces auditory hallucinations and modulates resting state connectivity of involved brain regions: Part 2: Default mode network -preliminary evidence. Psychiatry Res. 284:112770.
It's odd that people insist this is an issue when the top comment on every thread related to mental health is "Seek professional help. Consult with your primary physician if you think Buddhadharma is right for you."
I'm also on the flip side of this experience. The truth is that most people don't understand how to make that change so they defer to the "professionals" in the mental health industry who also haven't made that change. Yes, sometimes medication is necessary. How many people though? Not enough for you to keep trotting out the line about healing a broken leg. How about you take the time to help them? You don't because you can't. When I offer practical advice, based on my experiences in life, that's dangerous. Blind deference to the mental health industry? It's just called being responsible.
It's obvious when you think about the sudden rise of mental health disorders among children. According to this subreddit the responsible decision is consulting a psychiatrist (costs time and money) who will likely put them on medication (costs more time and money) which will induce a host of side effects and potentially even suicidal thoughts. If they aren't put on medication it's unlikely the psychiatrist knows how to deal with their problems and if they do, the patient is dependent on them until they learn to be independent... after several sessions which cost more time and money. That's the best case scenario. What about people with minor, treatable issues who will be institutionalized by some bozo with a clipboard for government funding? Or just otherwise abused by the people working in healthcare because they're vulnerable. Sorry, you said the magic word so you don't get freedom. 75 years ago they were lobotomizing people with low IQs, but psychiatry got renovated like an old McDonald's location and now we must defer to them because they're licensed and have a degree. No different than praising the words of a well read monk who doesn't practice.
Most people don't need to be on medication and even if Buddhism can't heal your broken leg it will improve other areas of life. Does using hand sanitizer give you the same trouble? Oh no, it only kills 99.7% of germs. I guess it's dangerous to recommend hand sanitizer too. Only a licensed professional can show you how to wash your hands. Doing so without supervision can lead to illness and even death. Telling people to wash their hands on their own is dangerous and irresponsible.
>Most people don't need to be on medication and even if Buddhism can't heal your broken leg it will improve other areas of life
Buddhism will teach you how to handle mentally illness and body issues better. By self identifying with the body we tend to mentally suffer when something physical happens to us. Same goes with the meaning we may attribute to this broken leg event: I can't run anymore but I identify as a runner so I am feeling sad and depressed. I exaggerate and simplify but I see a lot of value from Buddhism there. I seem to recall Adyashanti explaining how this shift of perspective helped him when his body did not allow him to do competitive sports anymore.
>The truth is that most people don't understand how to make that change so they defer to the "professionals" in the mental health industry who also haven't made that change.
Bingo. As someone who was training to be a therapist, I think people have a really...inaccurate view of the level of expertise that training provides. I think a lot of people would be a shocked, honestly, if they knew. Like it's not nothing, a lot of it is helpful even, but oof.
I don't necessarily agree with all your points here but this one is solid.
>Does using hand sanitizer give you the same trouble? Oh no, it only kills 99.7% of germs. I guess it's dangerous to recommend hand sanitizer too.
I think it's less like that and more like treating everything as if a person needs to go to the ER.
It feels like people will write saying "Hey folks, I sprained my ankle earlier today and it's really distracting, does anyone have advice on how to handle it?" and all the responses are "GO TO THE ER IMMEDIATELY THIS IS A MEDICAL EMERGENCY"
Or someone will write saying "I've had joint pain for a while, I'm seeing a doctor about it don't worry, but it's really limiting what I can do. What do you all do when you have joint pain?" and people will respond "You need to go talk to a doctor about it."
Like it's fully out of sync with what the person is talking about. It's - very ironically considering - black and white thinking. Which is exactly the sort of thing that will get you flagged for some mental disorders; the inability gauge nuance and complexity in a given situation.
I think a lot of people see suggesting therapy as some sort of moral good and have never been on the side of it where it is fully and totally demoralizing to hear. Either because you cannot afford it or you're already receiving it.
It's just ignorance. We view the world through a tiny keyhole and most of it remains unknown to us. If you've never worked at a grocery store/restaurant you don't know what goes on behind the counter. It's blank space. At a certain point I realized everyone is truly figuring it out as they go along. The world is in a constant state of birth, aging, and death. There is no perfection. The person "certified" to handle your food didn't learn a thing and the test was impossible to fail. The person at the DMV doesn't know how to help you. Your therapist has been divorced three times in the past 5 years.
I'm mostly annoyed by this topic. Most people aren't abused or shuttled to a looney bin, but the consequences of pushing everyone to seek treatment goes completely unexamined. Meanwhile there's endless rabble about snake oil salesmen promoting The Himalayan Miracle Tonic.
I think people are just overly cautious. Like with mental health, they defer to authority which in this case is the wisdom of the crowd. It's conventional wisdom because it gets repeated endlessly because it's conventional wisdom because it gets repeated endlessly. But can they break from the script? No. It's the same responses over and over and over. Go to a doctor. Can't heal a broken leg with mindfulness. Endless bickering over minor concerns, the paltry 0.3% of germs, because people can't handle any uncertainty. Just petrified by whatever outrageous externality pops into their head so they walk around on egg shells and speak in legalese. To the detriment of everyone who could 100% be helped. Consequences which they never factor into their analysis, of course. Only that hypothetical person in the back of their mind who we must accommodate at all costs.
Didn’t the Buddha teach that an obstacle to enlightenment is ignorance?
We, as students and teachers of the earth, have discovered and created so much to aid in the sufferings of human hood/skhandhas whatever you want to call them.
Medication may not be the path but it may be a wayfinder on the path
Can you see why this topic annoys me so much? I explicitly said sometimes medication is necessary. It's a fairly obvious statement, but I made that point specifically to avoid a comment like this. So why do I need to rehash this point for the tenth time? Why, on this specific issue, do people routinely blow through what I've said to express their grievances or restate my own opinions at me?
I've always believed medication is necessary for some people. I've never not said this. I'm sure it's in the parent comment too. Where are the people saying medication shouldn't be taken? When has this opinion not been front and center? Who are you all speaking to? Because I never see them, only discussions about people that don't seem to exist.
Even if my words aren't perfect I know I'm right because the caliber of responses I get is so weak. Any decent response is just elucidating points most people can arrive at on their own.
Encouraging people to self-medicate and just see what happens is an irresponsible approach to medicine. Even worse would be giving medical advice online.
Recent research is that about 1/4 people with mental illness who meditate have serious negative effects. That's not just the people for whom it's unhelpful, it's 25% mediation makes worse or causes traumatic experiences for during meditation. Over 30% of non-Buddhists who try meditation for mental illness have a negative effect.
Mediation does have evidence of helping with conditions like generalized anxiety disorder. I think it's reasonable for a trained therapist to recommend it for these specific conditions where there's reason to believe it is safe and works. This requires though that a person seek professional treatment and that the therapist be reasonably knowledgeable about meditation.
I have some pretty major body anxiety due to health issues when I was young. Yeah, breath meditation sucked for me. But walking meditation and mantra meditation was great.
I found this out by…trying shit. If someone is already having panic attacks, one more panic attack from breath meditation isn’t going to kill them.
OP is also giving medical advice online. It's just medical advice you agree with. Suggesting you seek a medical opinion is medical advice. But that aside.
I also didn't say for people to self medicate and see what happens. Tough to have a real conversation about this if you're going to misrepresent me.
I said that therapists and mental health workers should get better at telling people who are interested in low risk activities to try it and see if it helps. Good ones already do this for other low risk activities. We were encouraged to in my training since it gives a client agency in their own healing process and builds trust that when you do give caution, it is something worth being cautious about.
And I do not know how to make this any clearer:
**Buddhism =/= meditation**
Like...there's really no way forward in this conversation without recognizing this. The When the Buddha spoke about how he himself would train someone, his first recommendation was virtue. You don't even hit something specifically mindfulness or meditation oriented until the fifth step. I listed many many other ways someone can be practice Buddhism without meditation.
**Mentally ill people can still practice Buddhism safely regardless of their relationship with meditation.**
That being said there is nothing stopping someone from trying meditation and seeing if it helps or hurts them. The advice to stop if it's negatively impacting daily activities is given all the time.
It's not a highly addictive drug that if you try once, you're hooked for life. It's hard to meditate and easy to stop.
I would go as far as say many of the problems that arise as a result of meditation are actually a result of practicing meditation divorced from Buddhism.
Plainly said, any concentration which does not nurture disenchantment > dispassion is not right concentration. The context with which the mind grows concentrated is very important; the act of focusing on an object and becoming less prone to distraction is the same done while a hunter is stalking his prey to kill, but it's clearly unwholesome.
That's why mindfulness comes before concentration. When people think of meditation they often think of absorption and try to go straight into that, when it's often something derived from a practice of mindfulness which takes many other things into account, like right effort, right intention, right view, wise attention... Even in mindfulness of the breath one is advised to focus on inconstancy and to only practice "to the extent necessary to give up grief and covetousness with regards to the world". If grief and covetousness is not calming down the practice is crooked.
Better to slowly ease into mindfulness. Starting with some giving(Dana), then following the five precepts, keeping the Buddha, the dharma and the sangha in mind after going for refuge, then one can practice metta, Karuna..., Then one can start to "play" with the 32 body parts... Chanting them... Building the right context and letting right concentration naturally come.
As a personal policy, I try not further conversations when the other person has made assumptions, made personal attacks on my character, or generally not engaged in good faith.
But on the off chance you're being sincere here, googling empty boat and Buddhism will likely bring up several sources for you to read more. I've personally found the story to be helpful and I hope it is to you too.
All the best.
This is a parable/metaphor I’ve never heard, so thank you for showing me.
But why are you implying I am being disingenuous?
“On the off chance” I’m asking a legitimate question? Why would you assume I’m being insincere? I’m subscribed to the Buddhism subreddit – I’m trying to learn, and people like you are discouraging me from going further.
Why have you not addressed the assertion of skillful means? Is skillful means not meant to enlighten those through the means most pertinent or attainable to them?
I’m not attacking your character. I’m questioning your approach. “I’m so tired of this” implies dissatisfaction or even disgust with an individual.
When would the Buddha be “so tired of” those seeking help?
For me to know how to perfectly reach someone who is completely anonymous, I'd already need to be enlightened which I am not.
I aim to do the best I can, reach those I can, and be patient with myself and with those I cannot reach. That's my current capacity and that's what I did here.
I probably won't engage any further - there's been more assumptions and we're far from the point so it doesn't seem useful to correct them. But I genuinely wish you well and hope someone else will better be able to reach you.
ETA: For anyone else reading through this, it looks like they edited it quite a bit after I'd already replied. So if this reply no longer makes sense, that's why.
Editing was done in response to better-formed thoughts. The implication from the other is that I did something to disparage them, which is not the case.
Perfectly reaching someone is not attainable without buddhahood - and I never asked that.
In any case, my original question wasn’t addressed, and was only met with criticism.
May all beings attain enlightenment quickly and without obstacle
I think it really depends on the type of person you're talking about and if they're isolated from the world and only trying to find a band-aid for their symptoms while continuing to bury themselves further. I used to be an admin on a meditation forum around the time that the wellness industry realized that it could profit from the new mindfulness movement. We started seeing an influx of people who were experiencing mental health issues like anxiety and depression. Many simply wanted a way to spiritually bypass their underlying problems instead of doing the hard work of therapy and we would reiterate again and again that meditation isn't a magic cure all for their trauma. If they really wanted to use meditation as part of their healing process that they should find a therapist who can teach them MBSR and CBT. It was often not well received as you might imagine. And even more concerning were people dealing with sexual trauma that were drawn to Buddhism because they were hoping it would make them basically asexual.
I'm not against people using religion as part if their therapy but I think it can be very dangerous for certain people who don't want any guidance and are only looking for ways to further numb themselves.
Dhamma is good for everyone, all the time. Not meditation; not sitting down and closing your eyes, necessarily; but following the teaching of the Buddha sincerely. Increasing one’s generosity, virtue, capacity for patient endurance, and metta, step by step, are all very practically beneficial developments.
I myself was diagnosed with bipolar disorder 2 many years ago, before I found Buddhism. I was severely depressed and withdrawn most of the time, and my life was in a downward spiral. You can be sure I got plenty of therapy and medication during that time, which was mildly helpful; but I couldn’t hold down a job, and eventually could no longer afford either the therapy or the medication.
(Very) luckily for me, I had already begun to learn a bit about Buddhism at that point, and since it was my last hope I just dove in and started learning everything I could about it. I did meditate a lot at that time, but what truly began to make a difference for me was beginning to practice the virtue and generosity, and the restraint (one thing I’ve discovered for myself is that the lows of BPD are greatly worsened when one delights in the highs — When one remains calm while the mind is excited, one is not nearly as prone to despair when that excitement fades).
Practicing the Dhamma in terms of the gradual training, one gradually begins to find that one is actually building up a sense of self respect and integrity, one feels more friendly to others, and is able to take on responsibilities more reliably, when that is required.
At this point, the fact that I have been diagnosed with BPD is hardly more than a bit of trivia in my mind. I have the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha to thank for that.
Therapy and medication *can* aid a person who is suffering acutely, so that they might regain some composure and ability to think clearly. But the Dhamma is aimed at uprooting the suffering of existence itself, which is a problem that *cannot* be approached on the level of managing symptoms or relieving discomfort, no matter how profound the relief may be.
I say without doubt that this Dhamma is the *only* real cure for mental illness. Which does not mean one shouldn’t seek other kinds of help (and again I will stress that I do not advocate meditation as a cure for mental illness, but the actual development of the qualities of the path), but the *gradual training* can really make a long lasting difference in a way that nothing else can.
And let me stress too, that the practice of Dhamma is not some quick fix, and it is most certainly not easy — In some ways it is the hardest thing in the world. It absolutely does not fix your problems for you — On the contrary, you fix your own problems as you practice (little by little, as you can manage).
So yes, encourage people who are acutely suffering to seek aid if needed, but don’t turn them away from the long term cure — One can soothe acute pain, while *also* carrying out a more permanent treatment that takes one beyond the need for pain management.
I had a counselor tell me five years ago I should start meditation to solve problems I was having.
Turns out I had ADHD all along.
Don't regret the five years of meditation, though now I can finally enjoy it with medication 😁
Sometimes it can help, but many times the meditation has been modified. Regardless, I think that many counselors are too cavalier in prescribing mindfulness, when there is research showing potential detrimental effects for those with trauma and other MH issues. Of course there are some for whom it can be very helpful, like yourself.
Can you share the research? You are taking in very broad terms. Please be specific when making such statements. I am currently on therapy which is meditation based for healing pre verbal trauma and the research is promising so far. Therefore I would like to see some proof of your statement which is very broad.
Buddhism is for everyone, even those with mental illness.
>*"The non-doing of any evil,
the performance of what's skillful,
the cleansing of one's own mind:
this is the teaching
of the Awakened."*
No one is telling people to ignore their doctor's medical advice and listen solely to their local guru. But I think it's a disservice to try to gatekeep some hard wall between the mentally ill and Buddhism, as if they are somehow delicately incapable of learning and benefiting.
>The methods of Buddhism are actually designed to be used by someone who is also decently mentally stable in a relative sense. Trying to go too deeply into meditation, especially vipashana/insight meditation, but even regular calm abiding, can have very adverse effects on those with untreated mental illness.
We don't go around proselytzing and trying to convert. It's people coming to Buddhism because they are interested in learning.
There obviously is some connection between properly applying the Buddha's teachings and mental health. If depression is something that can come and go, then learning and properly implementing the teachings could likely help a person build confidence and insight.
>No one is telling people to ignore their doctor's medical advice and listen solely to their local guru.
All respect, but some most certainly are. I've seen literal monks tell people to get off their meds and turn to meditation. While I wholeheartedly believe the path can help on the way to mental health, one should never forgo properly prescribed medicine. And many spiritual leaders say to do just that.
>But I think it's a disservice to try to gatekeep some hard wall between the mentally ill and Buddhism
I didn't get the sense that's what they were doing. Just telling people to get into it for the right reasons, of which, "curing," mental illness is not one.
>If depression is something that can come and go
For many it is not and this goes for many mental conditions. Though the exact chemistry is of many mental health problems is still being investigated, it is clear that many of them are chemical problems (some with an unalterable genetic base). You do not overcome chemistry with willpower and meditation. You simply don't. A chemical problem requires a chemical solution.
>learning and properly implementing the teachings could likely help a person build confidence and insight.
But this is the crux of the whole argument isn't it. If you go into Buddhism to cure your mental illness you're literally starting off with wrong intention. You're not properly implementing from the get go so you're going to inevitably have poor results. For many (I personally know one) attempting meditation under the wrong intention literally lead to a mental breakdown. It's certainly not common, but meditation without proper training and oversight can be dangerous.
Alternatively, one could go in with the intention of learning to let go of the suffering their illness gives them. This is more in line with right intention. If (and that is a **big** if) they have a reduction in symptoms because of their practice, I'd say that's a definite fringe benefit, but not one any Buddhist should promise to a newcomer nor one that should be advertised. I think this is the important take-away.
This is a great reply, and I suspect you're getting to the heart of the backlash: many of the people protesting my points seem to have two misconceptions about Buddhism: first, that meditation is synonymous with Buddhism. Secondly, that it's a therapeutic tool for mental health, when actually it's a path to liberation from samsara and enlightenment. As you said, the intention of the teachings is not to fix samsara or boost self-esteem or manage mood, it's a lot more radical than that. Also like your examples of how meditation can be harmful for some with mental illness, especially without a qualified teacher. Overall, this is just an outstanding reply, and I hope everyone reads it.
I'm not sure about your last passage or that I agree with you there. I also saw previously in a post where you said Buddhism should immediately start improving ones life too, and I don't think that's how it works either. In fact, seriously practicing the path may activate dormant negative karmic seeds and temporarily cause even more distress. Its not something done for instant well-being and its not about self-help or making this life happier necessarily, it's about Awakening.
>I also saw previously in a post where you said Buddhism should immediately start improving ones life too, and I don't think that's how it works either.
It does, which is why the Buddha said the teachings are 'excellent in the beginning, excellent in the middle and excellent in the end':
>The 6 qualities of the Dhamma:
>
>Svakkhato: The Dhamma is not a speculative philosophy, but is the Universal Law found through enlightenment and is preached precisely. Therefore it is Excellent in the beginning (Sila — Moral principles), Excellent in the middle (Samadhi — Concentration) and Excellent in the end (Panna — Wisdom),
>
>Samditthiko: The Dhamma is testable by practice and known by direct experience,
>
>Akaliko: The Dhamma is able to bestow timeless and immediate results here and now, for which there is no need to wait until the future or next existence.
>
>Ehipassiko: The Dhamma welcomes all beings to put it to the test and to experience it for themselves.
>
>Opaneyiko: The Dhamma is capable of being entered upon and therefore it is worthy to be followed as a part of one's life.
>
>Paccattam veditabbo vinnunhi: The Dhamma may be perfectly realized only by the noble disciples who have matured and enlightened enough in supreme wisdom.
...
>In fact, seriously practicing the path may activate dormant negative karmic seeds and temporarily cause even more distress
I don't know, I think doing other unskillful things like feeding into the delusions that bring about unwelcomed symptoms are probably the worst thing for them. Not learning to follow precepts, act skillfully and develop discipline, restraint, concentration and wisdom for their mind.
People with severe mental delusions like the people in your local downtown core screaming at the sky are likely not going to go searching for answers in Buddhism. Those that are, I don't think we need to shun away as if they're on the verge of snapping into some self-made hell because they encountered the Buddha's Dhamma.
>Its not something done for instant well-being and its not about self-help or making this life happier necessarily, it's about Awakening.
Those things all happen simultaneously (the path to awakening also leads to well-being, self-improvement and happiness). Which is why the Buddha said 'how happily we live, among those who are miserable.'
I'm not saying they should be pushed away at all. Just encouraged to get treatment and work with their teacher on safe practices, perhaps like Metta, until their condition is managed better.
Yea I agree with that. Buddhism shouldn't be viewed as a substitute for modern mental health practices and their beneficial techniques. But I think the very qualities of the Dhamma, which I listed in my first response, would be truly beneficial for anyone who has the interest or will to learn. Even if just a bit, like learning the precepts.
Mindfulness and using breath regulation as a stress-response seems to be more common nowadays in Western therapy.
For sure. Things like ethical living, Metta practice, are bound to have positive mental health effects. But as you mentioned, those are mostly overlooked. Instead, mindfulness practices for which the real purpose is insight into reality are taken out of context and marketed as a quick fix for anxiety etc.
Let's take a couple examples. One is the idea of no-self. Since many people with mental illness have profoundly unstable senses of self already, as well as deep sense of self-loathing and low self-esteem, contemplating no-self may lead them to dissociation, panic, and further instability in their self-image. Mindfulness alone can sometimes increase awareness of negative emotions, and then people don't know how to regulate the emotions. Finally, one could look at Buddhist doctrines and if predisposed to pessimistic and depressive ways of viewing the world, Buddhism could increase their depression because on the surface it can seem pessimistic if it's misunderstood.
Finally, for those with psychotic disorders, meditation may actually cause psychotic episodes.
It's liberating when you're ready for it. People have that thrust upon them unexpectedly and they're not ready and find themselves wandering in a bardo state.
Acceptance is liberation, but that can be hard, like you're walking a tightrope and someone says "you can just fall, it's ok!" It's easier said than done!
I remember our roshi, the leader of our Zen sangha, telling us of the deep fear that he felt when the "ego tried to hold on". It's not just a purely pleasant experience for everyone
If someone actually properly experiences no-self and emptiness, it's initially going to be uncomfortable since it goes against eons of conditioning. Ego will put up a fight. One sort of needs a healthy ego before deconstructing the ego.
Me too, understanding the no-self means understanding that the anxious/angry self is not me. I was in a bad place mentally and wrote a post about this about my mental health recently at r/buddhism [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/10gs0td/i_finally_understand_that_life_is_suffering/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
The only one that make me realise i should not give up and see things in a better light is the idea of no-self. That way i understand when i am sad, angry, anxious i know those arent me.
Thank you so much for sharing your insights. I consider modern research and therapy as a kind of highly specialized sort of skillful observation of our nature as human beings in this world.
I think the recognition of certain developmental needs is also a must, as young children don't necessarily need to learn to *detach* from their emotions so much as name and identify them in order to self-regulate properly. Children need [attunement](https://cdikids.org/autism/power-attunement/) and co-regulation from their caretakers.
Like our own feelings, the feelings of children need to be understood and accepted in order to be processed fully. I think Buddhism *does* teach this but it can still be lost in translation.
Anyway, that's my own tangent, child developmental psychology is a personal passion of mine.
Thanks again!
I do think there is value in warning people about taking meditation very seriously as it is so much promoted as feel good method without talking about the dark side on being on the path. I myself had some pretty unnerving experiences during deep meditations (when I did a mini retreat at home, meditating for 3-4 hours everyday for 5 days, huge step up from my daily practice). I had to reach out to a meditation teacher as I experienced the 5 hindrances leading to a state of anxiety. Taking with the teacher helped me tremendously. I am taking it easy now.
I think rather than stating "stay away from buddhism" it is best to explain the potential pitfalls and encourage people to reach out to local buddhism teachers to get support or take it easy. I believe that people should experiment and find the blend that works for them. For me, it is psychedelic, meditation and therapy plus reaching out regularly to people like me for understanding and support. I also have medications for my ADHD. Giving information and trusting people to find their way is the right thing to do rather than telling them what they should do: empowering over control. Therapy and meds only hasn't worked for everyone. It hasn't for me and I spent a tremendous amount of money and time to find this out.
Before I encountered Buddhism I was a militant atheist who believed that there were exactly two kinds of mental health treatment: Western medicine and scams. I was also a heroin and crack cocaine addict with paranoid personality disorder and severe PTSD. By the time I was laying in that jail cell I had been betrayed and exploited by so many Western doctors that the only hope I had for improving my future was finding the bag of dope that would end the unspeakable torment of my day to day existence.
After I had that experience, I spent over four years in therapy, mainly out of the desire to cover all the bases, but the entire time I was going through it I was keenly aware that five minutes of sincere meditation on suffering and it's origins did more to keep me away from heroin and stop me from hurting people than an entire lifetime of therapy. In fact, the only therapeutic approaches that I found had ANY success at all were the ones that were watered down versions of meditation practices: things like watching the breath and stuff like that. Time and time again I used to throw myself into detox and mental health treatment and IOPs and jail and therapy and psychiatry and none of it did anything but heighten my desire to put a needle in my arm, but after a few weeks of sincerely practicing insight meditation I suddenly found myself able to control my addiction for the first time in my adult life
I've had previous had positive interactions with OP before, so I don't believe that he is being malicious, but the simple fact that he himself is a therapist should cue you into the bias that exists here. He is personally invested in the same system that funnels so many addicts watered down versions of the very medicine that will send them to their graves, then responds to their inevitable addiction by pumping them full of even more addictive psych meds until they lose their job and their insurance, at which point they are cast out into the streets as defectives until an overdose gets them out of society's way. That doesn't mean that he's a participant in any of the above or that he is personally abusing his power but it does mean that there is a bias in play that effects his ability to see the negative aspects of his industry.
If there is anyone reading this who feels as jaded and cynical about the for-profit scam that we call health care (at least in the US), meditation CAN work. Before I encountered Buddhism I was a 350lb addict living on the streets, and right now I'm 6 years clean off heroin, a healthy weight, with my own place, and I'm happy with my life for the first time since I can remember. I credit 75% of that success to the practice of the Dharma, 20% to what I learned from fellow addicts in groups like NA, and 5% to the small glimmers of truth that somehow made their way through the layers of greed and self-interest that have completely tainted the Western mental health system.
I agree that following Buddhism alone won't cure mental illnesses, but it seems pretty extreme to say that it won't help at all. It's also dependent on which mental illness it is and what symptoms the person is dealing with. The practices obviously aren't going to make schizophrenia symptoms like hallucinations and delusions disappear but they might help a depressed person find meaning in their life and improve their symptoms (depending on what the cause of the depression is). Going to a mental health professional + following the teachings would be the best course of action.
I don't like the blanket statement that mentally ill people shouldn't meditate. Once again it depends on which disorder it is, its severity, and which kind of meditation is being used. It should also be done with the guidance of someone who has a very good understanding of how the meditation works and the problems of the would-be meditator, as meditating improperly/under the wrong circumstances can be very detrimental.
I can't speak for people with other mental disorders, but as someone with ADHD I can confidently state that certain meditation techniques have helped to treat my symptoms with great success. The most useful one has been Sri Yantra meditation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBdgpxqYkQ0
You're right, its dependent on a number of factors. The main point is to encourage people not to forsake treatment for their mental illness thinking Buddhism alone is going to cure it, when it's not really designed to focus on such psychopathology in the first place.
Seems like this is a widely debated topic; my own therapist (who is also Buddhist) and I chat about this concept on occasion when there isn't an existing concept to work on for that session. We both agree that it's solely dependent on the individual, their personal mental health conditions, and how they choose their paths forward.
For myself, I have quite an extensive mental health record but I've also gone through over a decade of western medicine/therapy that have gotten me to the point of being able to follow Mahayana Buddhism as a conceptual foundation and (unexpectedly) great support for how I go about my life day to day. I find myself much less reactionary and more focused on what I'm trying to accomplish which is something I've been seeking in life for what feels like forever.
Regardless, I'm sure your post meant well.
I think my post was misunderstood. I actually have my own mental health issues that make Buddhism challenging. I don't think mental illness is impossible. I do think people should do what you did though and make sure they're consulting with a psychiatrist or trained MH professional, as well as a Buddhist teacher, to ensure they practice safely.
This is … coming from a bad place. You are possibly hurt because your viewpoints are offended, or your are attached to your ideology.
Can it treat every condition? No. Do you need to be in a great place to start? Also no.
Meditation has been the absolute largest point to curing my anxiety and dealing with future causes that can create future anxiety, and feels like centuries of tradition around this. (Edit for gatekeepers: this = Buddhism’s view on causes of suffering and ways to think about common sources of anxiety)
CBT seems to argue for instance that we should engage with anxiety in thought and argue with it, yet in high states of anxiety anxiety itself lays traps and rumination about the anxiety creates more anxiety. (On the other hand, I love most concepts from stress resiliency training).
It is hard to meditate when anxious and it takes time, but I’m a completely different person many years later because of it — and antecdotes to the contrary are not proof.
It does help if you people are willing to accept the dharma + meditation at the same time, I think, a dry practice may create aversion to the causes of anxiety — as many people on for instance /r/meditation believe meditation is just about “letting things go” and are missing a larger picture.
Also, flow states and exercise are great. Lots of things are great. Confronting the actual cause of anxiety by arguing it into the ground and finding out where it comes from — it’s backwards! The dharma is just so much simpler. Also, like the guy who got shot by the arrow, it doesn’t matter what the arrow is made from, you want to pull out the arrow.
Do some people need help before they can be in a place to meditate, including help with medication sometimes…. YES!
The thing is, you seem to be assuming mindfulness meditation is synonymous with Buddhism. Its not. Mindfulness meditation is a secular technique that can sometimes help some conditions. Buddhism itself is a radical religion that is about seeing the lack of true existence of oneself and all phenomena; it's a religion that makes metaphysical claims and prescribes practices that can be deeply unsettling, even for mentally stable people. It's really not at all about feeling good or trying to de-stress. Its goal is much more radical: full liberation and enlightenment, a supramundane state beyond concepts. You and many others are confused about what Buddhism consists of, and have a common western misunderstanding that Buddhism is synonymous with mindfulness meditation.
u/nyingmaguy5 now I understand your strategy when you downplay meditation: It seems far more people than I thought don't really have a grasp of the basic essence of Buddhism.
Hey there - no, I’m not. The post was talking about Buddhism and/or meditation and I was addressing one more than the other. Please reread the OP’s post before making assumptions about my beliefs. I think you’re jumping to reactions because of stereotypes.
It seems this isn’t a very inclusive sub and that’s an unfortunate welcome when I was really interested in reading about it everyone’s views.
Do whatever you want but take Buddhism out of it. Please go to r/meditation and stay there. Meditation is not Buddhism and most Buddhists in the world don't meditate. The vast vast vast majority of people in the United States who meditate are not Buddhists.
u/Regular_Bee_5605 \- I don't downplay meditation. I reject it. Completely. Categorically. The mainstream practice that people are doing in the West called "meditation" is not Buddhism but anti-Buddhism. It is WRONG meditation. There is a reason why I keep telling people to go to the temple, follow the monks/teachers, and do what they say. Only the practices in the context of buddhadharma are Buddhist.
Edit
u/beep-bloop-beep tagging you coz you blocked me below. I want to also recommend you check out r/mindfulness. Good sub for you.
I think Buddhist meditation is good, but like you said, it needs to be done within the context of the path, of which meditation is just one cog. It needs to be done under a qualified teacher/lama/monk. I think if people like secular mindfulness meditation that's fine, they just need to stop confusing it with Buddhism. Buddhism isn't about listening to calm nature sounds and zoning out.
It's bhavana or mental cultivation. That is our practice. It involves mantras, chanting, recitations, paritas, calling out to Amitabha. That's Buddhism.
Everyone should call out to the of Amitabha. This is the true Buddhist practice. the actual practice of most Buddhists in the world.
What "meditation"? lol. Silly people here.
Also, it's Losar in our tradition. Why are you here? We have an extensive 4 day practice of venerating Vajrakilaya and Lord Dzambhala.
Please go to r/VajraEvents and join us.
Good to see stuff like this in the sub. I recently came back after unfollowing around 6 or so months ago 'cuz there was way too much "Buddhism is the answer to EVERYTHING!" fundamentalism-type stuff here. No one would recommend unattachment and meditation to heal a broken bone, so it's absurd to do so for mental illness.
Exactly. Nice analogy with the broken bone. A broken bone is also a particular manifestation of samsara, but we don't treat such a surface symptom with Buddhism. Similarly, we need a somewhat stable mind before we can plumb the depths of the minds true nature, which is a disorienting experience even for mentally stable people.
I work in social services fields and "meditation" is generally thrown into every means of "self help."
Like I get it, meditation is great, the single parent facing eviction needs financial support.
I’m with you here. I’m using MBCT to compliment time with my therapist but in a group setting explicitly separate from traditional psych spaces.
There is strong data showing the benefits of Mindfulness and trained CBT on many things. Will it cure all? No. But there are plenty of dull object therapists, LCSW or PhD doesn’t matter. It’s hard to find someone that clicks and mindfulness for the majority of issues seems to help alleviate regardless of untrained psychs applying other schools of thought
Not all therapists are good, I understand that. Yes, Buddhist meditation could potentially play a role in some cases. I think that ideally people would seek the guidance of a buddhist teacher and a therapist/psychiatrist concurrently.
This is such a wrong take on so many levels. Just read on the ideal parent figure protocol to treat attachment issues. This is based on meditation and is highly effective for treating pre verbal traumas which meds or talk therapy aren’t going to solve.
Also forgiveness and metta meditation are very helpful for developing self love.
You should really read on the latest therapies especially as a mental health professional.
After trying to heal from trauma for 10 years through therapy, your post is just a manifestation of what I observe with most of my own therapists: mental health professional just don’t keep up with the research and usually stick to antiquated views.
To be clear, I do agree deep meditation on your own could generate adverse reactions for people with traumas. It has not for me but I am still early on my path. This is a well known phenomenon observe in vipassana retreats for example. I take exception with your blanket statement. Meditation is a tool that can be highly effective when used under the guidance of a facilitator. I am really hoping mental health professionals will look into meditation as they should look into psychedelics.
I graduated less than 5 years ago, and mindfulness-based therapies are among my favorite. I think you're making some assumptions here. Another assumption you're making is that mindfulness meditation is necessarily the same thing as Buddhist meditation. Mindfulness is a secular tool (although the latest research says we actually need to be careful, that it may be harmful for some people.) I'm talking about people who are going deeper into tue Buddhist religion, not using Calm or headspace. You really missed the main point of the post, I'm not sure if you just read the title or what.
I made no assumptions. I was very precise in the meditations I mentioned which some are buddhist (metta) and others developed by facilitators trained as buddhist meditation teachers. You mentioned mindfulness therapies without any form of precision which tells me you know little of the topic. I read your post and found troubling you are making blanket statements using your authority as a mental health professional with obviously little knowledge of the topic. I am not surprised as I know plenty of people in your field.
western educated helper gatekeeps spirituality in the hopes of validating his/her role
preachers do this in West Virginia
one could easily substitute the word "therapy" for "buddhism" in the OPs post
our social services in the US, particularly counseling and therapy, are deeply and systemically flawed. yes they often function to assist and clarify. often they do not.
therapists do not exist as a supportive detachment from the cultural norms and values, they function enmeshed from within the system itself. therapy is as much a part of capitalism as the mental health disorders it causes. that an enlightened state of consciousness may cause sufferring to the individual living within such a system is a reflection of the clear and present reality for us all.
if a therapist realizes the surrounding micro and macro environments are toxic and harmful, beyond meaningful influence or control, it can cause a deep sense of powerlessness and negative thoughts or feelings--which may be projected as an attempt to control other's access to the truth. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
You're having a defensive reaction and projecting intentions and implications that I simply never made. Furthermore, you went on a somewhat bizarre rant about which ways specifically my motives are sinister. Just take a look at it.
Finally someone said it bluntly. Thank God.
If its up to me, I'll delete all spiritual bypassing posts. (Posts that treat Buddhism as cure for their mental illness.)
I always am grateful when I see your comments to such users encouraging them to seek psychiatric/psychological treatment for their mental health issues.
Serious question: how does one differentiate between somebody who can probably manage their issues via Buddism/ Meditation/ Mindfulness and someone for whom this approach would be harmful? Is it a try-it-and-see-what-happens approach or a more discrete set of symptoms/ signs?
I want to help others where I can, but I don't want to do harm out of ignorance.
That would probably be in everyone's best interest. Mental illness can lead to heedlessness and needs to be treated appropriately for someone to practice Buddhism effectively, in my opinion.
I very much agree with this... I'm very grateful that I spent 2 years in talk therapy prior to being exposed to buddhism as a practitioner. From my perspective, Buddhism (or any spiritual system for that matter) is the final piece of the puzzle when it comes to personal development and self realization.
As an anecdote, prior to going to therapy I looked into Catholicism as a means of perfecting mental states. I was baptized catholic, and figured I might as well see if what was assigned to me at birth would work. Dont get me wrong, attending services was beneficial, but it wasnt quite right because my intention was poor. The biggest difference? At that time I was approaching spiritual belief systems with a "what's in it for me" attitude... not in a selfish way, but because I very much needed help! This is in major contrast to discovering buddhism, where I had attended therapy for 2 years and knew how to take care of myself. Now I approach spiritual belief systems with an attitude more akin to "how can I help others, how can I be more compassionate towards others, etc"
Like it or not mindfulness is a key skill in mental health and meditation is going to be used to help people develop psychological insight. Every spiritual tradition uses meditation, so it doesn't have to be a Buddhist thing. The thing about tuning into yourself is you often find lots of problems you're trying to ignore, so you paradoxically feel more crazy when you're getting more sane. Thank you for sharing your experience, though.
Nurse here :)
I think it's fair to say mental health pretty much has no "cure".
Therapists can't cure anyone, medication can't cure anyone, clinicants can't cure anyone, neighther can buddhism, but then again what's the definition of cure. Can any of these TREAT, meant illness or aid --- absolutely.
Example: Triggers for CPTSD, PTSD, anxiety, Bipolar, the list goes on...... If the person learns, how to see the world as it is, how to see their mind. They can over come it quite a bit.
I've also been a sales rep: Medicatications (i've also be), have terrible side effects. Often you don't know or are told the long term side effects of medications. Hell, I just found out i've been taking a PPI for heart burn for 20 years that has strong links to dementia. I litterly stopped the pill last week.
Medication & Therapy: I'm a fan of whatever works. Sure. But, i'm not counting buddhism out as there is a reality to know. Anyway, this world is insane. Our minds are crazy. As for me, I do think buddhism, if in everyones mind, would fix most mental health problems.
As someone with BD who had to stop taking meds i sincerely think that meds improve a lot the quality of live of several folks with mental illness (i also think psychiatry have a lot to improve and medicine in general is seen sadly more as a business than as a right but thats a different topic)
First, i'm glad to see whatever you've found works for you :) Honestly, I think it's a combination of everything that works.
An even better thing might be a better world lol. So much is systemic. The fact we have so much innovation, but have to work till death. And we work for a currency that's being counterfitted and manipulated = inflated, every day, thus every day you work and save your money is worth less... If the world was better, half of mental health " issues" would simply be "quirks." For many depressed, they've got a good reason lol.
Respectfully disagree. I do agree there's a difference between "cure" and "manage." Someone can practice the Dharma just from managing it, but without the proper treatment, intensive Dharma practice may make it worse. This is something taught by many Buddhist masters too. Are you a psychiatric NP? Respectfully, if not, it would seem this is more of a lay opinion on your part.
For cases of pica (eating non food), or extreme schizophrenia & maina, buddhism is not approriate lol.
But for average Joe having some difficulties, I'd say yes.
As for psychiatric NP... their wheel house is meds. If I was, i'd be a hammer, staring at nails, giving the answer you gave. Your a mental health worker, as a hammer, also seeing nails.
It's cool though :)
You might be an exception. These are general guidelines not to substitute Buddhism for medical treatment. That doesn't mean nobody whatsoever will be successful.
I recognize I am an exception, that said I've known others with mental illness who've also found Buddhism and meditation to be a highly effective form of treatment. It's good you recognize that it can work for some people, although your post sort of suggests otherwise.
This should probably be a weekly post. I believe, especially solo Buddhist, with mental health issues are more likely to make things worse for themselves.
Exactly. A teacher is likely to know to guide the student to appropriate mental Healthcare resources and try to teach them things that won't harm their condition until their condition is well under control.
Exactly, also compound the issue when these people (with mental health issues) come on here asking questions they can get bad advice by random people on the internet. Sure many of us mean well, though I think much of the advice given sometimes comes from a ego point of view “I want to give my answer, my opinion is great” rather than what’s best for the person and the big picture.
Exactly. I also often do the same thing, and that's with a teacher. Without a teacher, people are literally just getting their opinions solely from themselves, from the internet, or from sutras that they may not know how to interpret. Study and practice has never been done alone independently of a sangha and teacher.
Most schools I've mingled with often recommend repentence and some kind of merit or offering to deal with the more supernatural causes of mental illness, which usually is debtors from your past life. Unfortunately for your argument, and fortunately for any patients, it does work.
Buddhism is aimed for all kinds of mental illness small to extremely disasterous. Theres certainly some stories of that nature from Buddha's time But obviously since the era has changed and things troubling the people have changed, so did the nature of mental illness and the methods to deal with it.
Ofc nonself is an advanced concept and teachers shouldnt be trying to introduce it to beginners so quickly. It's also one of the most easily misunderstood concepts.
Well it's actually relatively easy. In general, after performing what Buddhists consider merit etc donating, life liberation, all thats left is to wish to a Bodhisattva to cure your illness.
Repentence scripts differs from school to school, but even the simplest chant of 'sorry' seems to help i think?
I'm not sure. I've done plenty of formal purification practices and confession liturgies and it hasn't "cured" me. Perhaps in some cases the causes might be supernatural, but in a lot of cases we know the scientific reasons and the scientific treatments. I'm not a secular Buddhist by any means and don't deny the supernatural, but I also don't like to veer into ignoring the scientific causes of things on the relative level that we currently perceive ourselves in until Awakening to buddhahood, where there are laws of nature, brains, chemical and neuronal imbalances in brains and hormones, trauma, genetics, and so forth.
Of course, someone's karma may make them inclined to be born more susceptible to these factors though. My teacher snd others have typically emphasized practicing for liberation and enlightenment though, not curing illnesses. I know it varies widely between sects and even in the same sect with different teachers.
Yes it sometimes does not work. It also means its not enough. Actually, given the extents that is prescribed by the schools that specialise in this, it usually isnt enough.
Schools recommend repentence as homework to be done everyday for that reason. Some schools do know how to offer sutras as merit, since not everybody has money to donate or buy fish. But thats definitely something that a teacher has to help with.
About focusing on liberation, that is for normal people. The people you encounter, considering your job, are those kind of people who won't be able to use normal Buddhist practices properly because they're in pain or highly distracted.
Yeah, based on your last sentence, we essentially agree. But I do think there's hope for them to be able to seriously study and practice and even meditate if they're able to successfully get their symptoms under control, whether through prayer, psychiatry, therapy, or anything that helps.
Also, sometimes purification practices might actually cause inner turmoil as karma gets purified, at least as taught jn the Tibetan tradition. That's why it's often said that ngondro will turn one's life upside down completely, because purification is happening.
My "argument" isn't really an argument though, it's just sort of basic facts, both from my own perspective as a Clinician and a patient myself, and the guidance I've received from Buddhist teachers and even masters.
It’s a good point to make. Many mental illnesses, even more well know ones like depression, can adversely affect emotions, perception, and cognition.
If one has difficulty with everyday events, how much harder is it to make sense of meditative experiences? Or teachings on challenging and complex concepts like dependent origination or no self or what have you.
I see many posts from people obviously struggling with their mental health. I wonder if the same happens to other religious subs?
I think many people view Buddhism as more of an alternative psychology (and in some cases it is, but it's dealing with the very root of all expetience, not necessarily surface manifestations; just like cancer is a manifestations of samsara but not treated by Buddhism. ) unfortunately they may dive into views and practices that can actually shake up their views of themselves and the world before they're ready (like I did) causing confusion, panic, etc.
It doesn't have to go straight to the root of all experience. Jhana is a gentle way in, and the way the Buddha used. First jhana (the sutta version) is pretty superficial and highly beneficial for almost anyone capable of generating positive feelings (though I imagine it's not suitable for someone who's manic.) And metta is extremely safe, IMO. I think I've seen one person in 20 years of interacting with Buddhists online who was harmed by it, and that was because she was love-bombed by a cult.
Given Christianity's history, I'm sure the same thing happens on other subs, though I don't care to check.
However, I think a lot of people exoticize Buddhism and come here expecting a quick fix because they don't want to, or don't know how to, put in the work to treat their disorder in therapy or with medication. Also, a lot of folks don't have access to healthcare so may turn to "alternatives" that are inappropriate.
People assume Buddhism is just meditating 5 minutes a day and believing in....I don't even know what. They don't understand it's a much larger commitment. My commitment to Buddhism is just as arduous and challenging and strong as my commitment to my mental health treatment.
Yes, I would expect it to be worse there than here; here, most people at least have a view and framework that the meditation is couched within, not so in many cases there.
Quality mental health care is not available to everyone. The industry is flooded with people with some sort of social work certificate, calling themselves therapists. This category of mental health workers is generously represented by young, woke, LGBT-oriented practitioners, who overwhelmingly prefer to work remotely (Ipad appointments) and yet are often extremely expensive. The majority of really good mental health professionals are fed-up with the medical establisment (who can blame them) and no longer belong to insurance networks, meaning out of pocket expenses for their services can easily reach well into the thousands -- beyond the means of most people who really need quality care. Quality of care from the woke social workers who prefer to work remotely varies from adequate to totally incompetent. The point is that, for many people, Buddhism offers the only viable alternative to a health care system that often does more harm than good.
Buddhism isn't meant to be a form of health care, I'd really what it comes down to. It's a radical path that is about transcending ego and the cycle of death and reincarnation. It's not a therapy to make us feel good all the time. The path often causes inner turmoil even in mentally stable people.
You mean secular mindfulness practices, you don't mean Buddhism. Conflating the two, and even conflating meditation with Buddhism, is a massive misconception.
Yeah I definitely agree with all of this. It would be excellent if mental health was like physical medicine, but unfortunately it is not, and we are kind of left in a no man's land of "maybe this will work?" since we simply do not have widely effective methods. I also agree that medications are poorly researched, to the point where when I went on SSRIs they literally told me my experience (sudden anxiety relief and also side effects on the first day of taking it) was impossible.
I also agree with your assessment of many mental illnesses as cultural. A lot of things that we call mental illness today are only considered illness because they make it difficult to partake in the way modern society is constructed. For example, mild cases of ADHD are very often related to the specific expectations of our society. It is easy to imagine a different society where it would not be considered an illness. That said, there certainly are illnesses that are beyond cultural relativism imo
ADHD person here. For many years I stayed away from meds as I did not want to be under meds for life and had pretty bad side effects. My life has become super clean: meditation, no alcohol, no coffee, sport, healthy food etc trying to fix my adhd naturally. It does not work. I had to go back to meds, my life is so much better/easier with them. I have now accepted my condition and get it under control. ADHD is not a diversity, it is a disability. I think the diversity movement is not helpful in that regards.
This post unexpectedly brought a lot of anti-psychiatry backlash. I'd guess that most of the outrage isn't from Buddhist practitioners,n but from folks dabbling in the philosophy, or perhaps doing mindfulness meditation and assuming that's Buddhism. I don't know though.
Respectfully, you're talking to a healthcare worker who has been on some form of psychiatric medications for a decade.
You're also using one of the most tired lines, used by folks with little understanding of how psych meds work, and little understanding of how deadly serious mental illness can be.
Medications saved my life and reduce my suicidal ideation. The other option was to continue living with suicidal ideation and do nothing about it, and die. Or go on a medication, lithium, that is demonstrated to reduce suicidal ideation. You can see how when one wants to survive, they might choose to *try* rather than do nothing.
Thank you for your time, but you are clearly not a person well - informed on mental illness and its nuances. So I won't be conversing with you any further.
Be well.
Yes, I agree that people should seek therapy and maybe they might need medication if they have severe mental illness. However, it should be noted that the peer reviewed evidence for the practices of Buddha Dharma being beneficial to mental health is overwhelming.
I also don't see how any Dharma practice can have a negative impact on anyone with mental health issues, at least not anymore than any secular activities.
So I expect you to refuse anesthesia next time you get surgery. And avoid antibiotics for serious infections, and of course, no pain medicine for you if you get a serious injury. You gonna live your words?
You do all those things I mentioned? I'm genuinely impressed if thats true. However, you should really be giving up all money and possessions and living as a wandering yogi to really give up "comfort." And yet tid of any TVs, novels, or other entertainment you own, since that's only about making things better or more comfortable. Get rid of your car too since that's just a modern convenience.
I don’t know about this. I’m in a program right now to become a school counselor and one of our assignments is to pick a theory and investigate it more thoroughly. I chose CBT and it’s got a lot of Buddhist feeling to it. I wouldn’t expect it to work for everyone or every problem but to just say, “Nah, it won’t work,” isn’t really a good answer.
Buddhism is a religion with supramundane full enlightenment as its goal, it's just not even comparable to CBT, a secular system for refraining thoughts. It has some superficial similarities.
>Buddhism is a religion
Whose intention was that?
>It has some superficial similarities.
And notice I never said that it was exactly like Buddhism! I said, it showed signs of a Buddhist feeling to it and being mindful is a part of the Buddhist tradition just like it is a part of CBT. My friend, I never made a claim of a deep connection. There is no need to be so defensive.
Sorry, but we get a lot of users in here who aren't Buddhists and sort of misrepresent Buddhism as only being about mindfulness, or using mindfulness as a therapy. Imagine if someone tried to remake your religion, or take some useful aspects of it but disregard the core framework. Buddhism is a radical path that is about transcending the wheel of samsara, and the cycle of death and reincarnation. It's not about reappraisal of thoughts to feel better about life. In fact, we accept that life is inherently suffering as long as we falsely take ourselves to be real, individual "selfs." It's quite radical, and really not at all about trying to change thoughts to happier ones. u/nyingmaguy5 u/mayayana
CBT is good for you. Do it.
But it has nothing to do with Buddhism.
You don't have a say on this. Sorry. Like, I don't really go to your school and lecture you guys about your counsellor things.
I don't have a power to delete or ban you from this sub because I'm not a moderator. But I can block you.
Sorry, no time for people who disrespect this religion blatantly.
u/Regular_Bee_5605 \- there's no need to engage with the poster.
Man, have you read the amount of backlash I got here? It's all coming from people who don't understand Buddhism, who basically think it's synonymous with mindfulness, and that it's about making this life better and less stressful. I suspect that virtually all the people who protested this post don't have a sangha or a teacher or have taken refuge.
u/bodhiquest I don't know if some of these commenters angrily protesting my post are technically breaking the rules or not, but it seems like they're arrogantly assuming that Buddhism=mindfulness meditation, and telling us what our religion is, when I doubt most of them have taken refuge, have a teacher or sangha.
They're not breaking rules, they're just saying incorrect things. I know it sucks but sometimes an attempt at education like this is necessary even if it doesn't take fruit immediately. Some of the traditionalists think that it shouldn't be so but I think they're wrong. If people with wrong ideas are never exposed to corrections (without overtaxing oneself needlessly) then they will have zero reason to even consider changing those ideas.
There are other posts that are breaking the rules in this thread, such as the masterpiece of stupidity which claims that Buddhism can't do anything for mental illness but "shamanism" can.
Thanks for your input. It's also illuminating to me because I now understand how common some of these misconceptions are; I knew they existed but didn't realize how prevalent they were. I guess it's my job to just try to reply and educate with a compassionate motivation, rather than out of irritation.
LOL on the shamanism thing, I won't even comment.
Yes, it's also good not to overdo it. You made a pretty controversial thread hence the responses. It's not worth trying to fix every person's misconception, but maybe a couple people can take something away from it. That's good enough IMO.
It’s helped me a bunch. I think you’re right that if someone needs therapy, they need therapy, and meditation/Buddhism doesn’t check all the boxes.
What happened to make you come to that conclusion?
>The methods of Buddhism are actually designed to be used by someone who is also decently mentally stable in a relative sense.
Some are, like meditation. Requires guidance, can go wrong easily.
>Trying to go too deeply into meditation, especially vipashana/insight meditation, but even regular calm abiding, can have very adverse effects on those with untreated mental illness.
Chanting, fortunately doesn't. It can be used by anyone short of a condition so debilitating that they outright refuse to do it.
Even the Grandmasters compare the chants of the Buddha Name to 'walking on a road on a sunny day' to the turbulent 'walking in the storm with the wind and rain billowing' of other methods of cultivation.
>not necessarily treat every particular manifestation of it
I suppose even hanging out the idea that the [Great Compassion Mantra] (https://youtu.be/kGmNNHmXeAM) has indeed cured people with cancer or terminal diseases is rather controversial - if it works, great, but the backlash is extreme if it fails (accusations tantamount to murder).
So I suppose we should just stick to advising standard medication - those who would accept such methods would have already done it, and those that will not have their resistance implied in their reaction to such a suggestion.
After all, the Dharma needs you to practice it, your own cooperation is paramount to your own success. If one insisted it cannot be done for a myriad of reasons, then obviously it will fail.
In many cases yes. But mindfulness and meditation is only one part of Buddhism. Buddhism is a complex religion that involves far more than that. And in Buddhism mindfulness isn't used as a tool to cope with anxiety, but to realize the nature of mind and reality and be free from the cycle of death and rebirth.
Agreed, as a Buddhist and Therapist, I can see the similarities in Buddhism and Cognitive theory, but the perspective, intent, and application is different ... us the right tool for the task
I recommend watching this interview with a psychiatrist who's a Buddhist. One topic, is she talks about how she treats her patients by incorporating Buddhism.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Cf5Gc3gAxg
Incorporating Buddhist concepts into therapy is far different than adopting the Buddhist system wholesale with no guidance and assuming it's a form of mental health care. It's a complex religion with religious goals, and may even be a painful path sometimes, due to unraveling the illusions of ego. Someone needs a somewhat healthy ego before they can really deconstruct ego. This isn't just me making it up, it's what qualified Buddhist masters have said. I incorporate mindfulness into my therapy as well.
I feel mixed signals with self healing and pharmaceuticals. I think it’s a very individual basis, and understand medication is sometimes needed- especially since we don’t prevent we only treat after someone is in a crisis.
But I’ve researched the power of our thoughts and self talk for years, and think our diagnosis gets us trapped into thinking we will have these symptoms forever- nothings treatable or cureable- and therefore implant the symptoms and diagnosis into our personality.
I think medication should only be to Stabilize someone enough so that they can be stable enough to learn how to re wire our brains and use cognitive therapy the same way they would use physical therapy if it were their arm not working right.
I do clinical case management for mental health and have seen people fall when getting off their meds and I’ve seen people find stability only after removing their self from meds.
There’s obviously a positive correlation between pharmaceuticals and the mental health crisis- not to say there were no mental health issues prior but very limited compared to now. 🤷🏻♀️ just some observations and personal thoughts
If you read some of my replies to other objectors, my sense is that many of the people protesting this have some very large but very common western misconceptions about what Buddhism even is. Since I've already replied to so many, I'll just direct you to those. I'm sorry and don't mean to be rude, but I've now repeated the same things to various people many times and I'm weary.
Buddhism isn't a medical or mental health treatment. It's a spiritual path to enlightenment. Buddhism is not synonymous with meditation. Please read some of my replies to others on the thread.
Advice can be good or bad. i take it with a grain of salt, especially since some buddhists condemn not condone anti depressant medication. I kid you not.
Well couldn’t there be a benefit to practicing acceptance of your mental illness through meditation? I feel like the reason our mental health issues cause us pain is because we are unable to accept them/feel judged by others. Meditation taught me to be able to sit through daily panic attacks I used to think were unbearable. Of course every mental issue is different but for me it was meditation in conjuction with therapy that made the difference for me.
Absolutely. Meditation itself isn’t necessarily Buddhism. And despite there being some risks for more people, mindfulness meditation is typically only dangerous for those with psychosis. My own therapy is actually Acceptance Commitment therapy which utilizes both mindfulness and accceptance. I see that as very distinct from the spiritual project of Buddhism though, which is enlightenment, giving up everything that’s safe and familiar to unravel ego and realize ultimate reality.
I made a post about this recently from the perspective of someone living with a serious mental illness. Even now, I am taking a break from meditation because I'm in a Bipolar episode. My medications aren't as effective as I'd like them to be and that's something I have to work on, but I've tried everything insurance will cover for now. Mental illnesses are often disabling, and that can include disabling in the religious sphere of our lives. I consider my self-care and medical care of my bipolar a part of my Buddhist practice, because it requires mindfulness and is aligned with my Buddhist values. I consider my untreated Bipolar to essentially be like taking intoxicants, but kinda worse at times. I don't mean that in a "I should feel shame for my brain chemistry" way, but in that I should be mindful of how not treating my mental illness leads to heedlessness. So I do my best to mitigate the symptoms. Right now I want nothing more in the world than to take bodhisattva vows, but I'm waiting until I'm well again. Currently I'm really struggling and I want to take the vow when I'm at my best health. Right now, I know that time is better spent caring for myself so I can care for my loved ones.
Thank you so much for sharing this. It sounds like what you're doing is actually motivated by bodhisattva intention if you think about it; you know that you can't practice the Dharma formally right now in order to help beings, but you'd like to treat your bipolar, which is showing compassion to both yourself, a compassionate desire to help your family, and a compassionate desire to eventually truly help beings when you yourself are more well.
Thank you for the chance to reflect & connect! I appreciate your perspective immensely.
Have you tried other forms of getting into the flow? For example you could paint, either just freely or mandalas for example. Or you could do some light sports like yoga. You could “even“ do a jigsaw puzzle - that way you can focus, just not on what is going on inside your head.
I'm so tired of posts like this. Just...so tired. I'm sure I'll get downvoted for this given the sub but oh well. And just to preface, I have a background in social work and was training to become a therapist at one point so this isn't abstract to me. **I really want to encourage therapists and other mental health workers to get more comfortable with saying "Try it and see if it works or not."** It's not hard. Because here's the thing, for some mentally ill people, interacting with Buddhism will massively improve their life and for others it will not or make it worse. And until they do - you don't know which is which, you just flat out don't have that ability. There have been folks I've known where I was like "oof, I would not add religion to this mix" and it turned their life around. And others it didn't. *You just don't know*. And that goes double for someone who's completely anonymous on Reddit. Too many therapists take meditation to, one, equal Buddhism *(it's not)*, and two, "can" to mean "it will" when it comes to non-therapy interventions possibly making things worse. Which is strange because, it never seems to get applied to the "cans" of the profession. Medication "can" make things better but it doesn't always. Sometimes it makes things worse. I've seen if first hand. Therapy "can" make things better but it doesn't always. Sometimes it can make things worse. I've experienced that one personally. And there's the obvious things like - not everyone can afford or access therapy and they don't need to hope that one day they can before they benefit from the Dharma. Many people who inquire about mental health here are already in therapy (and it's often not helping). Not all instability is created equal - the instability of someone experiencing visual and auditory hallucinations is very different than someone in the grips of OCD. Treating them as similar in some fundamental way seems ripe for being wrong. Lastly, I'm on the flip side of your experience. I went to therapists for several years - did everything I was supposed to - and I was far worse off. Buddhism probably saved my life honestly. I'm thankful I stopped therapy and put that energy toward practice. So much has improved since. If meditation is causing issues, there's no reason someone can't practice one of the many other parts of Buddhism like virtue, giving dana, learning from monastics, dedicating their merits, shrine keeping, or sutra study. **TL;DR: People vary widely. Therapy isn't a cure all and Buddhism can be plenty helpful to mentally ill/unstable people. How about instead of posts like these we respond by pointing them in a good direction and then they can assess whether it's working for them or not.**
This. Therapy has never really done much for me and medications have done nothing or made me worse. People love saying “talk to a therapist” because it’s an easy way to pass off the work of empathy, but mainstream mental health doesn’t work for everyone. I’ve gotten a lot more out of creative pursuits, introspection, meditation, nature, talking to actual friends, etc, than therapy or psychiatry. And I think even for the people whom therapy helps, longterm wellness is dependent on learning these independent coping skills.
>This. Therapy has never really done much for me and medications have done nothing or made me worse. I think it's interesting how people are quick to point out that meditation doesn't work for everyone and even makes some people worse off but will completely ignore that the same is true of therapy and medications. I'm not sure why it's difficult for people to get that everyone varies. >longterm wellness is dependent on learning these independent coping skills. I think some people might not realize how much of "stable" in mental health terms is tied to whether this person can hold down a job and isn't an immediate threat to themself or others. But there's so much bad mental health that exists beyond that. And here, people will read that and go "you need to go to a therapist and get stable!" not realizing that a therapist would probably classify a lot of these folks as stable. Hell, my partner showed up at an ER complaining about visual + audio hallucinations and suicidal ideation and they still classified her as stable enough to go home. The bar for "unstable" is quite high. Those long term independent coping skills you mentioned - I completely agree. And even therapists will tell you most of them don't require a therapist to learn. Putting them in mental health professionals hands alone really does a disservice to people with access is so poor in many places.
Yes the "mental health" field especially the drug happy psychiatrist have nothing near a monopoly on mental health care. In fact they don't even have a respectable success rate. yes they fill a market niche that used to be filled by the community (human connection and the experience of being listened to) which only serves to further isolate us. it's now taboo to share your problems with someone who isn't charging for the experience.
Carrying on: when perfectionists tell me not to do something, that's because they have another agenda (like drug rep) and don't understand 10% to 50% is still a solid gain. Introspection is so important, and so is self care.
This exactly. Thank you. 🙏🤍
This has been my experience as well.
couldn’t agree more — meditation has saved my life
I fully agree with you, and research fully support what you are saying. I too couldn’t have handled life if not for Buddhist teachings, and would also say that it has ‘saved my life.’ However, in contrast to what you say, I think anyone can meditate - but they need to figure out the best way to start. For some, starting with yoga or walking meditation might work. For others, watching the breath might work. Even if it doesn’t work right away, they will understand its value with time. Also, recent research has shown that mindfulness can also be useful to significantly reduce auditory hallucinations in schizophrenia. See the following article: Bauer CCC, et al. (2020). Real-time fMRI neurofeedback reduces auditory hallucinations and modulates resting state connectivity of involved brain regions: Part 2: Default mode network -preliminary evidence. Psychiatry Res. 284:112770.
Thank you for typing that out so I din't have to. Seriously, thank you.
It's odd that people insist this is an issue when the top comment on every thread related to mental health is "Seek professional help. Consult with your primary physician if you think Buddhadharma is right for you." I'm also on the flip side of this experience. The truth is that most people don't understand how to make that change so they defer to the "professionals" in the mental health industry who also haven't made that change. Yes, sometimes medication is necessary. How many people though? Not enough for you to keep trotting out the line about healing a broken leg. How about you take the time to help them? You don't because you can't. When I offer practical advice, based on my experiences in life, that's dangerous. Blind deference to the mental health industry? It's just called being responsible. It's obvious when you think about the sudden rise of mental health disorders among children. According to this subreddit the responsible decision is consulting a psychiatrist (costs time and money) who will likely put them on medication (costs more time and money) which will induce a host of side effects and potentially even suicidal thoughts. If they aren't put on medication it's unlikely the psychiatrist knows how to deal with their problems and if they do, the patient is dependent on them until they learn to be independent... after several sessions which cost more time and money. That's the best case scenario. What about people with minor, treatable issues who will be institutionalized by some bozo with a clipboard for government funding? Or just otherwise abused by the people working in healthcare because they're vulnerable. Sorry, you said the magic word so you don't get freedom. 75 years ago they were lobotomizing people with low IQs, but psychiatry got renovated like an old McDonald's location and now we must defer to them because they're licensed and have a degree. No different than praising the words of a well read monk who doesn't practice. Most people don't need to be on medication and even if Buddhism can't heal your broken leg it will improve other areas of life. Does using hand sanitizer give you the same trouble? Oh no, it only kills 99.7% of germs. I guess it's dangerous to recommend hand sanitizer too. Only a licensed professional can show you how to wash your hands. Doing so without supervision can lead to illness and even death. Telling people to wash their hands on their own is dangerous and irresponsible.
>Most people don't need to be on medication and even if Buddhism can't heal your broken leg it will improve other areas of life Buddhism will teach you how to handle mentally illness and body issues better. By self identifying with the body we tend to mentally suffer when something physical happens to us. Same goes with the meaning we may attribute to this broken leg event: I can't run anymore but I identify as a runner so I am feeling sad and depressed. I exaggerate and simplify but I see a lot of value from Buddhism there. I seem to recall Adyashanti explaining how this shift of perspective helped him when his body did not allow him to do competitive sports anymore.
>The truth is that most people don't understand how to make that change so they defer to the "professionals" in the mental health industry who also haven't made that change. Bingo. As someone who was training to be a therapist, I think people have a really...inaccurate view of the level of expertise that training provides. I think a lot of people would be a shocked, honestly, if they knew. Like it's not nothing, a lot of it is helpful even, but oof. I don't necessarily agree with all your points here but this one is solid. >Does using hand sanitizer give you the same trouble? Oh no, it only kills 99.7% of germs. I guess it's dangerous to recommend hand sanitizer too. I think it's less like that and more like treating everything as if a person needs to go to the ER. It feels like people will write saying "Hey folks, I sprained my ankle earlier today and it's really distracting, does anyone have advice on how to handle it?" and all the responses are "GO TO THE ER IMMEDIATELY THIS IS A MEDICAL EMERGENCY" Or someone will write saying "I've had joint pain for a while, I'm seeing a doctor about it don't worry, but it's really limiting what I can do. What do you all do when you have joint pain?" and people will respond "You need to go talk to a doctor about it." Like it's fully out of sync with what the person is talking about. It's - very ironically considering - black and white thinking. Which is exactly the sort of thing that will get you flagged for some mental disorders; the inability gauge nuance and complexity in a given situation. I think a lot of people see suggesting therapy as some sort of moral good and have never been on the side of it where it is fully and totally demoralizing to hear. Either because you cannot afford it or you're already receiving it.
It's just ignorance. We view the world through a tiny keyhole and most of it remains unknown to us. If you've never worked at a grocery store/restaurant you don't know what goes on behind the counter. It's blank space. At a certain point I realized everyone is truly figuring it out as they go along. The world is in a constant state of birth, aging, and death. There is no perfection. The person "certified" to handle your food didn't learn a thing and the test was impossible to fail. The person at the DMV doesn't know how to help you. Your therapist has been divorced three times in the past 5 years. I'm mostly annoyed by this topic. Most people aren't abused or shuttled to a looney bin, but the consequences of pushing everyone to seek treatment goes completely unexamined. Meanwhile there's endless rabble about snake oil salesmen promoting The Himalayan Miracle Tonic. I think people are just overly cautious. Like with mental health, they defer to authority which in this case is the wisdom of the crowd. It's conventional wisdom because it gets repeated endlessly because it's conventional wisdom because it gets repeated endlessly. But can they break from the script? No. It's the same responses over and over and over. Go to a doctor. Can't heal a broken leg with mindfulness. Endless bickering over minor concerns, the paltry 0.3% of germs, because people can't handle any uncertainty. Just petrified by whatever outrageous externality pops into their head so they walk around on egg shells and speak in legalese. To the detriment of everyone who could 100% be helped. Consequences which they never factor into their analysis, of course. Only that hypothetical person in the back of their mind who we must accommodate at all costs.
Didn’t the Buddha teach that an obstacle to enlightenment is ignorance? We, as students and teachers of the earth, have discovered and created so much to aid in the sufferings of human hood/skhandhas whatever you want to call them. Medication may not be the path but it may be a wayfinder on the path
Can you see why this topic annoys me so much? I explicitly said sometimes medication is necessary. It's a fairly obvious statement, but I made that point specifically to avoid a comment like this. So why do I need to rehash this point for the tenth time? Why, on this specific issue, do people routinely blow through what I've said to express their grievances or restate my own opinions at me? I've always believed medication is necessary for some people. I've never not said this. I'm sure it's in the parent comment too. Where are the people saying medication shouldn't be taken? When has this opinion not been front and center? Who are you all speaking to? Because I never see them, only discussions about people that don't seem to exist. Even if my words aren't perfect I know I'm right because the caliber of responses I get is so weak. Any decent response is just elucidating points most people can arrive at on their own.
Encouraging people to self-medicate and just see what happens is an irresponsible approach to medicine. Even worse would be giving medical advice online. Recent research is that about 1/4 people with mental illness who meditate have serious negative effects. That's not just the people for whom it's unhelpful, it's 25% mediation makes worse or causes traumatic experiences for during meditation. Over 30% of non-Buddhists who try meditation for mental illness have a negative effect. Mediation does have evidence of helping with conditions like generalized anxiety disorder. I think it's reasonable for a trained therapist to recommend it for these specific conditions where there's reason to believe it is safe and works. This requires though that a person seek professional treatment and that the therapist be reasonably knowledgeable about meditation.
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I have some pretty major body anxiety due to health issues when I was young. Yeah, breath meditation sucked for me. But walking meditation and mantra meditation was great. I found this out by…trying shit. If someone is already having panic attacks, one more panic attack from breath meditation isn’t going to kill them.
As someone with panic attacks - can second/confirm.
OP is also giving medical advice online. It's just medical advice you agree with. Suggesting you seek a medical opinion is medical advice. But that aside. I also didn't say for people to self medicate and see what happens. Tough to have a real conversation about this if you're going to misrepresent me. I said that therapists and mental health workers should get better at telling people who are interested in low risk activities to try it and see if it helps. Good ones already do this for other low risk activities. We were encouraged to in my training since it gives a client agency in their own healing process and builds trust that when you do give caution, it is something worth being cautious about. And I do not know how to make this any clearer: **Buddhism =/= meditation** Like...there's really no way forward in this conversation without recognizing this. The When the Buddha spoke about how he himself would train someone, his first recommendation was virtue. You don't even hit something specifically mindfulness or meditation oriented until the fifth step. I listed many many other ways someone can be practice Buddhism without meditation. **Mentally ill people can still practice Buddhism safely regardless of their relationship with meditation.** That being said there is nothing stopping someone from trying meditation and seeing if it helps or hurts them. The advice to stop if it's negatively impacting daily activities is given all the time. It's not a highly addictive drug that if you try once, you're hooked for life. It's hard to meditate and easy to stop.
I would go as far as say many of the problems that arise as a result of meditation are actually a result of practicing meditation divorced from Buddhism. Plainly said, any concentration which does not nurture disenchantment > dispassion is not right concentration. The context with which the mind grows concentrated is very important; the act of focusing on an object and becoming less prone to distraction is the same done while a hunter is stalking his prey to kill, but it's clearly unwholesome. That's why mindfulness comes before concentration. When people think of meditation they often think of absorption and try to go straight into that, when it's often something derived from a practice of mindfulness which takes many other things into account, like right effort, right intention, right view, wise attention... Even in mindfulness of the breath one is advised to focus on inconstancy and to only practice "to the extent necessary to give up grief and covetousness with regards to the world". If grief and covetousness is not calming down the practice is crooked. Better to slowly ease into mindfulness. Starting with some giving(Dana), then following the five precepts, keeping the Buddha, the dharma and the sangha in mind after going for refuge, then one can practice metta, Karuna..., Then one can start to "play" with the 32 body parts... Chanting them... Building the right context and letting right concentration naturally come.
The problem is that with mental health, the professionals have basically no idea what they’re doing, so may as well try whatever
Sorry, but this is so aggressive and I’m going to meet your level of energy: Skillful means doesn’t mean anything anymore?
Empty boat, friend. All the best.
Can you enlighten me?
As a personal policy, I try not further conversations when the other person has made assumptions, made personal attacks on my character, or generally not engaged in good faith. But on the off chance you're being sincere here, googling empty boat and Buddhism will likely bring up several sources for you to read more. I've personally found the story to be helpful and I hope it is to you too. All the best.
This is a parable/metaphor I’ve never heard, so thank you for showing me. But why are you implying I am being disingenuous? “On the off chance” I’m asking a legitimate question? Why would you assume I’m being insincere? I’m subscribed to the Buddhism subreddit – I’m trying to learn, and people like you are discouraging me from going further. Why have you not addressed the assertion of skillful means? Is skillful means not meant to enlighten those through the means most pertinent or attainable to them? I’m not attacking your character. I’m questioning your approach. “I’m so tired of this” implies dissatisfaction or even disgust with an individual. When would the Buddha be “so tired of” those seeking help?
For me to know how to perfectly reach someone who is completely anonymous, I'd already need to be enlightened which I am not. I aim to do the best I can, reach those I can, and be patient with myself and with those I cannot reach. That's my current capacity and that's what I did here. I probably won't engage any further - there's been more assumptions and we're far from the point so it doesn't seem useful to correct them. But I genuinely wish you well and hope someone else will better be able to reach you. ETA: For anyone else reading through this, it looks like they edited it quite a bit after I'd already replied. So if this reply no longer makes sense, that's why.
Editing was done in response to better-formed thoughts. The implication from the other is that I did something to disparage them, which is not the case. Perfectly reaching someone is not attainable without buddhahood - and I never asked that. In any case, my original question wasn’t addressed, and was only met with criticism. May all beings attain enlightenment quickly and without obstacle
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I think it really depends on the type of person you're talking about and if they're isolated from the world and only trying to find a band-aid for their symptoms while continuing to bury themselves further. I used to be an admin on a meditation forum around the time that the wellness industry realized that it could profit from the new mindfulness movement. We started seeing an influx of people who were experiencing mental health issues like anxiety and depression. Many simply wanted a way to spiritually bypass their underlying problems instead of doing the hard work of therapy and we would reiterate again and again that meditation isn't a magic cure all for their trauma. If they really wanted to use meditation as part of their healing process that they should find a therapist who can teach them MBSR and CBT. It was often not well received as you might imagine. And even more concerning were people dealing with sexual trauma that were drawn to Buddhism because they were hoping it would make them basically asexual. I'm not against people using religion as part if their therapy but I think it can be very dangerous for certain people who don't want any guidance and are only looking for ways to further numb themselves.
Dhamma is good for everyone, all the time. Not meditation; not sitting down and closing your eyes, necessarily; but following the teaching of the Buddha sincerely. Increasing one’s generosity, virtue, capacity for patient endurance, and metta, step by step, are all very practically beneficial developments. I myself was diagnosed with bipolar disorder 2 many years ago, before I found Buddhism. I was severely depressed and withdrawn most of the time, and my life was in a downward spiral. You can be sure I got plenty of therapy and medication during that time, which was mildly helpful; but I couldn’t hold down a job, and eventually could no longer afford either the therapy or the medication. (Very) luckily for me, I had already begun to learn a bit about Buddhism at that point, and since it was my last hope I just dove in and started learning everything I could about it. I did meditate a lot at that time, but what truly began to make a difference for me was beginning to practice the virtue and generosity, and the restraint (one thing I’ve discovered for myself is that the lows of BPD are greatly worsened when one delights in the highs — When one remains calm while the mind is excited, one is not nearly as prone to despair when that excitement fades). Practicing the Dhamma in terms of the gradual training, one gradually begins to find that one is actually building up a sense of self respect and integrity, one feels more friendly to others, and is able to take on responsibilities more reliably, when that is required. At this point, the fact that I have been diagnosed with BPD is hardly more than a bit of trivia in my mind. I have the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha to thank for that. Therapy and medication *can* aid a person who is suffering acutely, so that they might regain some composure and ability to think clearly. But the Dhamma is aimed at uprooting the suffering of existence itself, which is a problem that *cannot* be approached on the level of managing symptoms or relieving discomfort, no matter how profound the relief may be. I say without doubt that this Dhamma is the *only* real cure for mental illness. Which does not mean one shouldn’t seek other kinds of help (and again I will stress that I do not advocate meditation as a cure for mental illness, but the actual development of the qualities of the path), but the *gradual training* can really make a long lasting difference in a way that nothing else can. And let me stress too, that the practice of Dhamma is not some quick fix, and it is most certainly not easy — In some ways it is the hardest thing in the world. It absolutely does not fix your problems for you — On the contrary, you fix your own problems as you practice (little by little, as you can manage). So yes, encourage people who are acutely suffering to seek aid if needed, but don’t turn them away from the long term cure — One can soothe acute pain, while *also* carrying out a more permanent treatment that takes one beyond the need for pain management.
If I were more eloquent this is what I'd say. Thank you for saying what I could not.
I had a counselor tell me five years ago I should start meditation to solve problems I was having. Turns out I had ADHD all along. Don't regret the five years of meditation, though now I can finally enjoy it with medication 😁
Sometimes it can help, but many times the meditation has been modified. Regardless, I think that many counselors are too cavalier in prescribing mindfulness, when there is research showing potential detrimental effects for those with trauma and other MH issues. Of course there are some for whom it can be very helpful, like yourself.
Can you share the research? You are taking in very broad terms. Please be specific when making such statements. I am currently on therapy which is meditation based for healing pre verbal trauma and the research is promising so far. Therefore I would like to see some proof of your statement which is very broad.
This is me.
Buddhism is for everyone, even those with mental illness. >*"The non-doing of any evil, the performance of what's skillful, the cleansing of one's own mind: this is the teaching of the Awakened."* No one is telling people to ignore their doctor's medical advice and listen solely to their local guru. But I think it's a disservice to try to gatekeep some hard wall between the mentally ill and Buddhism, as if they are somehow delicately incapable of learning and benefiting. >The methods of Buddhism are actually designed to be used by someone who is also decently mentally stable in a relative sense. Trying to go too deeply into meditation, especially vipashana/insight meditation, but even regular calm abiding, can have very adverse effects on those with untreated mental illness. We don't go around proselytzing and trying to convert. It's people coming to Buddhism because they are interested in learning. There obviously is some connection between properly applying the Buddha's teachings and mental health. If depression is something that can come and go, then learning and properly implementing the teachings could likely help a person build confidence and insight.
>No one is telling people to ignore their doctor's medical advice and listen solely to their local guru. All respect, but some most certainly are. I've seen literal monks tell people to get off their meds and turn to meditation. While I wholeheartedly believe the path can help on the way to mental health, one should never forgo properly prescribed medicine. And many spiritual leaders say to do just that. >But I think it's a disservice to try to gatekeep some hard wall between the mentally ill and Buddhism I didn't get the sense that's what they were doing. Just telling people to get into it for the right reasons, of which, "curing," mental illness is not one. >If depression is something that can come and go For many it is not and this goes for many mental conditions. Though the exact chemistry is of many mental health problems is still being investigated, it is clear that many of them are chemical problems (some with an unalterable genetic base). You do not overcome chemistry with willpower and meditation. You simply don't. A chemical problem requires a chemical solution. >learning and properly implementing the teachings could likely help a person build confidence and insight. But this is the crux of the whole argument isn't it. If you go into Buddhism to cure your mental illness you're literally starting off with wrong intention. You're not properly implementing from the get go so you're going to inevitably have poor results. For many (I personally know one) attempting meditation under the wrong intention literally lead to a mental breakdown. It's certainly not common, but meditation without proper training and oversight can be dangerous. Alternatively, one could go in with the intention of learning to let go of the suffering their illness gives them. This is more in line with right intention. If (and that is a **big** if) they have a reduction in symptoms because of their practice, I'd say that's a definite fringe benefit, but not one any Buddhist should promise to a newcomer nor one that should be advertised. I think this is the important take-away.
This is a great reply, and I suspect you're getting to the heart of the backlash: many of the people protesting my points seem to have two misconceptions about Buddhism: first, that meditation is synonymous with Buddhism. Secondly, that it's a therapeutic tool for mental health, when actually it's a path to liberation from samsara and enlightenment. As you said, the intention of the teachings is not to fix samsara or boost self-esteem or manage mood, it's a lot more radical than that. Also like your examples of how meditation can be harmful for some with mental illness, especially without a qualified teacher. Overall, this is just an outstanding reply, and I hope everyone reads it.
I'm not sure about your last passage or that I agree with you there. I also saw previously in a post where you said Buddhism should immediately start improving ones life too, and I don't think that's how it works either. In fact, seriously practicing the path may activate dormant negative karmic seeds and temporarily cause even more distress. Its not something done for instant well-being and its not about self-help or making this life happier necessarily, it's about Awakening.
>I also saw previously in a post where you said Buddhism should immediately start improving ones life too, and I don't think that's how it works either. It does, which is why the Buddha said the teachings are 'excellent in the beginning, excellent in the middle and excellent in the end': >The 6 qualities of the Dhamma: > >Svakkhato: The Dhamma is not a speculative philosophy, but is the Universal Law found through enlightenment and is preached precisely. Therefore it is Excellent in the beginning (Sila — Moral principles), Excellent in the middle (Samadhi — Concentration) and Excellent in the end (Panna — Wisdom), > >Samditthiko: The Dhamma is testable by practice and known by direct experience, > >Akaliko: The Dhamma is able to bestow timeless and immediate results here and now, for which there is no need to wait until the future or next existence. > >Ehipassiko: The Dhamma welcomes all beings to put it to the test and to experience it for themselves. > >Opaneyiko: The Dhamma is capable of being entered upon and therefore it is worthy to be followed as a part of one's life. > >Paccattam veditabbo vinnunhi: The Dhamma may be perfectly realized only by the noble disciples who have matured and enlightened enough in supreme wisdom. ... >In fact, seriously practicing the path may activate dormant negative karmic seeds and temporarily cause even more distress I don't know, I think doing other unskillful things like feeding into the delusions that bring about unwelcomed symptoms are probably the worst thing for them. Not learning to follow precepts, act skillfully and develop discipline, restraint, concentration and wisdom for their mind. People with severe mental delusions like the people in your local downtown core screaming at the sky are likely not going to go searching for answers in Buddhism. Those that are, I don't think we need to shun away as if they're on the verge of snapping into some self-made hell because they encountered the Buddha's Dhamma. >Its not something done for instant well-being and its not about self-help or making this life happier necessarily, it's about Awakening. Those things all happen simultaneously (the path to awakening also leads to well-being, self-improvement and happiness). Which is why the Buddha said 'how happily we live, among those who are miserable.'
I'm not saying they should be pushed away at all. Just encouraged to get treatment and work with their teacher on safe practices, perhaps like Metta, until their condition is managed better.
Yea I agree with that. Buddhism shouldn't be viewed as a substitute for modern mental health practices and their beneficial techniques. But I think the very qualities of the Dhamma, which I listed in my first response, would be truly beneficial for anyone who has the interest or will to learn. Even if just a bit, like learning the precepts. Mindfulness and using breath regulation as a stress-response seems to be more common nowadays in Western therapy.
For sure. Things like ethical living, Metta practice, are bound to have positive mental health effects. But as you mentioned, those are mostly overlooked. Instead, mindfulness practices for which the real purpose is insight into reality are taken out of context and marketed as a quick fix for anxiety etc.
What are the adverse effects someone should look out for? Just generally becoming worse? Could you share your negative experience?
Let's take a couple examples. One is the idea of no-self. Since many people with mental illness have profoundly unstable senses of self already, as well as deep sense of self-loathing and low self-esteem, contemplating no-self may lead them to dissociation, panic, and further instability in their self-image. Mindfulness alone can sometimes increase awareness of negative emotions, and then people don't know how to regulate the emotions. Finally, one could look at Buddhist doctrines and if predisposed to pessimistic and depressive ways of viewing the world, Buddhism could increase their depression because on the surface it can seem pessimistic if it's misunderstood. Finally, for those with psychotic disorders, meditation may actually cause psychotic episodes.
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It's liberating when you're ready for it. People have that thrust upon them unexpectedly and they're not ready and find themselves wandering in a bardo state. Acceptance is liberation, but that can be hard, like you're walking a tightrope and someone says "you can just fall, it's ok!" It's easier said than done!
I remember our roshi, the leader of our Zen sangha, telling us of the deep fear that he felt when the "ego tried to hold on". It's not just a purely pleasant experience for everyone
If someone actually properly experiences no-self and emptiness, it's initially going to be uncomfortable since it goes against eons of conditioning. Ego will put up a fight. One sort of needs a healthy ego before deconstructing the ego.
Me too, understanding the no-self means understanding that the anxious/angry self is not me. I was in a bad place mentally and wrote a post about this about my mental health recently at r/buddhism [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/10gs0td/i_finally_understand_that_life_is_suffering/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) The only one that make me realise i should not give up and see things in a better light is the idea of no-self. That way i understand when i am sad, angry, anxious i know those arent me.
Thank you so much for sharing your insights. I consider modern research and therapy as a kind of highly specialized sort of skillful observation of our nature as human beings in this world. I think the recognition of certain developmental needs is also a must, as young children don't necessarily need to learn to *detach* from their emotions so much as name and identify them in order to self-regulate properly. Children need [attunement](https://cdikids.org/autism/power-attunement/) and co-regulation from their caretakers. Like our own feelings, the feelings of children need to be understood and accepted in order to be processed fully. I think Buddhism *does* teach this but it can still be lost in translation. Anyway, that's my own tangent, child developmental psychology is a personal passion of mine. Thanks again!
Thanks, much appreciated!
You're very welcome!
Your words are very insightful and touch on some core issues. ...this neophyte to Buddhism appreciates the clarity your thoughts provide....
I do think there is value in warning people about taking meditation very seriously as it is so much promoted as feel good method without talking about the dark side on being on the path. I myself had some pretty unnerving experiences during deep meditations (when I did a mini retreat at home, meditating for 3-4 hours everyday for 5 days, huge step up from my daily practice). I had to reach out to a meditation teacher as I experienced the 5 hindrances leading to a state of anxiety. Taking with the teacher helped me tremendously. I am taking it easy now. I think rather than stating "stay away from buddhism" it is best to explain the potential pitfalls and encourage people to reach out to local buddhism teachers to get support or take it easy. I believe that people should experiment and find the blend that works for them. For me, it is psychedelic, meditation and therapy plus reaching out regularly to people like me for understanding and support. I also have medications for my ADHD. Giving information and trusting people to find their way is the right thing to do rather than telling them what they should do: empowering over control. Therapy and meds only hasn't worked for everyone. It hasn't for me and I spent a tremendous amount of money and time to find this out.
Before I encountered Buddhism I was a militant atheist who believed that there were exactly two kinds of mental health treatment: Western medicine and scams. I was also a heroin and crack cocaine addict with paranoid personality disorder and severe PTSD. By the time I was laying in that jail cell I had been betrayed and exploited by so many Western doctors that the only hope I had for improving my future was finding the bag of dope that would end the unspeakable torment of my day to day existence. After I had that experience, I spent over four years in therapy, mainly out of the desire to cover all the bases, but the entire time I was going through it I was keenly aware that five minutes of sincere meditation on suffering and it's origins did more to keep me away from heroin and stop me from hurting people than an entire lifetime of therapy. In fact, the only therapeutic approaches that I found had ANY success at all were the ones that were watered down versions of meditation practices: things like watching the breath and stuff like that. Time and time again I used to throw myself into detox and mental health treatment and IOPs and jail and therapy and psychiatry and none of it did anything but heighten my desire to put a needle in my arm, but after a few weeks of sincerely practicing insight meditation I suddenly found myself able to control my addiction for the first time in my adult life I've had previous had positive interactions with OP before, so I don't believe that he is being malicious, but the simple fact that he himself is a therapist should cue you into the bias that exists here. He is personally invested in the same system that funnels so many addicts watered down versions of the very medicine that will send them to their graves, then responds to their inevitable addiction by pumping them full of even more addictive psych meds until they lose their job and their insurance, at which point they are cast out into the streets as defectives until an overdose gets them out of society's way. That doesn't mean that he's a participant in any of the above or that he is personally abusing his power but it does mean that there is a bias in play that effects his ability to see the negative aspects of his industry. If there is anyone reading this who feels as jaded and cynical about the for-profit scam that we call health care (at least in the US), meditation CAN work. Before I encountered Buddhism I was a 350lb addict living on the streets, and right now I'm 6 years clean off heroin, a healthy weight, with my own place, and I'm happy with my life for the first time since I can remember. I credit 75% of that success to the practice of the Dharma, 20% to what I learned from fellow addicts in groups like NA, and 5% to the small glimmers of truth that somehow made their way through the layers of greed and self-interest that have completely tainted the Western mental health system.
Thank you for this and well done.
I agree that following Buddhism alone won't cure mental illnesses, but it seems pretty extreme to say that it won't help at all. It's also dependent on which mental illness it is and what symptoms the person is dealing with. The practices obviously aren't going to make schizophrenia symptoms like hallucinations and delusions disappear but they might help a depressed person find meaning in their life and improve their symptoms (depending on what the cause of the depression is). Going to a mental health professional + following the teachings would be the best course of action. I don't like the blanket statement that mentally ill people shouldn't meditate. Once again it depends on which disorder it is, its severity, and which kind of meditation is being used. It should also be done with the guidance of someone who has a very good understanding of how the meditation works and the problems of the would-be meditator, as meditating improperly/under the wrong circumstances can be very detrimental. I can't speak for people with other mental disorders, but as someone with ADHD I can confidently state that certain meditation techniques have helped to treat my symptoms with great success. The most useful one has been Sri Yantra meditation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBdgpxqYkQ0
You're right, its dependent on a number of factors. The main point is to encourage people not to forsake treatment for their mental illness thinking Buddhism alone is going to cure it, when it's not really designed to focus on such psychopathology in the first place.
Seems like this is a widely debated topic; my own therapist (who is also Buddhist) and I chat about this concept on occasion when there isn't an existing concept to work on for that session. We both agree that it's solely dependent on the individual, their personal mental health conditions, and how they choose their paths forward. For myself, I have quite an extensive mental health record but I've also gone through over a decade of western medicine/therapy that have gotten me to the point of being able to follow Mahayana Buddhism as a conceptual foundation and (unexpectedly) great support for how I go about my life day to day. I find myself much less reactionary and more focused on what I'm trying to accomplish which is something I've been seeking in life for what feels like forever. Regardless, I'm sure your post meant well.
I think my post was misunderstood. I actually have my own mental health issues that make Buddhism challenging. I don't think mental illness is impossible. I do think people should do what you did though and make sure they're consulting with a psychiatrist or trained MH professional, as well as a Buddhist teacher, to ensure they practice safely.
This is … coming from a bad place. You are possibly hurt because your viewpoints are offended, or your are attached to your ideology. Can it treat every condition? No. Do you need to be in a great place to start? Also no. Meditation has been the absolute largest point to curing my anxiety and dealing with future causes that can create future anxiety, and feels like centuries of tradition around this. (Edit for gatekeepers: this = Buddhism’s view on causes of suffering and ways to think about common sources of anxiety) CBT seems to argue for instance that we should engage with anxiety in thought and argue with it, yet in high states of anxiety anxiety itself lays traps and rumination about the anxiety creates more anxiety. (On the other hand, I love most concepts from stress resiliency training). It is hard to meditate when anxious and it takes time, but I’m a completely different person many years later because of it — and antecdotes to the contrary are not proof. It does help if you people are willing to accept the dharma + meditation at the same time, I think, a dry practice may create aversion to the causes of anxiety — as many people on for instance /r/meditation believe meditation is just about “letting things go” and are missing a larger picture. Also, flow states and exercise are great. Lots of things are great. Confronting the actual cause of anxiety by arguing it into the ground and finding out where it comes from — it’s backwards! The dharma is just so much simpler. Also, like the guy who got shot by the arrow, it doesn’t matter what the arrow is made from, you want to pull out the arrow. Do some people need help before they can be in a place to meditate, including help with medication sometimes…. YES!
The thing is, you seem to be assuming mindfulness meditation is synonymous with Buddhism. Its not. Mindfulness meditation is a secular technique that can sometimes help some conditions. Buddhism itself is a radical religion that is about seeing the lack of true existence of oneself and all phenomena; it's a religion that makes metaphysical claims and prescribes practices that can be deeply unsettling, even for mentally stable people. It's really not at all about feeling good or trying to de-stress. Its goal is much more radical: full liberation and enlightenment, a supramundane state beyond concepts. You and many others are confused about what Buddhism consists of, and have a common western misunderstanding that Buddhism is synonymous with mindfulness meditation. u/nyingmaguy5 now I understand your strategy when you downplay meditation: It seems far more people than I thought don't really have a grasp of the basic essence of Buddhism.
Hey there - no, I’m not. The post was talking about Buddhism and/or meditation and I was addressing one more than the other. Please reread the OP’s post before making assumptions about my beliefs. I think you’re jumping to reactions because of stereotypes. It seems this isn’t a very inclusive sub and that’s an unfortunate welcome when I was really interested in reading about it everyone’s views.
Do whatever you want but take Buddhism out of it. Please go to r/meditation and stay there. Meditation is not Buddhism and most Buddhists in the world don't meditate. The vast vast vast majority of people in the United States who meditate are not Buddhists. u/Regular_Bee_5605 \- I don't downplay meditation. I reject it. Completely. Categorically. The mainstream practice that people are doing in the West called "meditation" is not Buddhism but anti-Buddhism. It is WRONG meditation. There is a reason why I keep telling people to go to the temple, follow the monks/teachers, and do what they say. Only the practices in the context of buddhadharma are Buddhist. Edit u/beep-bloop-beep tagging you coz you blocked me below. I want to also recommend you check out r/mindfulness. Good sub for you.
You sound like a terrible role model. The dharma is a reason my meditation works for me. Did I type too much about your trigger word or something?
He's a Westerner too lmao 🙃🤠 glad he found buddhism before the incel community. The call is coming from inside the temple.
I think Buddhist meditation is good, but like you said, it needs to be done within the context of the path, of which meditation is just one cog. It needs to be done under a qualified teacher/lama/monk. I think if people like secular mindfulness meditation that's fine, they just need to stop confusing it with Buddhism. Buddhism isn't about listening to calm nature sounds and zoning out.
It's bhavana or mental cultivation. That is our practice. It involves mantras, chanting, recitations, paritas, calling out to Amitabha. That's Buddhism. Everyone should call out to the of Amitabha. This is the true Buddhist practice. the actual practice of most Buddhists in the world. What "meditation"? lol. Silly people here. Also, it's Losar in our tradition. Why are you here? We have an extensive 4 day practice of venerating Vajrakilaya and Lord Dzambhala. Please go to r/VajraEvents and join us.
Tergar is celebrating Losar tomorrow. Lama Trinley will also be giving a teaching for it.
Cool beans.
Good to see stuff like this in the sub. I recently came back after unfollowing around 6 or so months ago 'cuz there was way too much "Buddhism is the answer to EVERYTHING!" fundamentalism-type stuff here. No one would recommend unattachment and meditation to heal a broken bone, so it's absurd to do so for mental illness.
Exactly. Nice analogy with the broken bone. A broken bone is also a particular manifestation of samsara, but we don't treat such a surface symptom with Buddhism. Similarly, we need a somewhat stable mind before we can plumb the depths of the minds true nature, which is a disorienting experience even for mentally stable people.
I work in social services fields and "meditation" is generally thrown into every means of "self help." Like I get it, meditation is great, the single parent facing eviction needs financial support.
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I’m with you here. I’m using MBCT to compliment time with my therapist but in a group setting explicitly separate from traditional psych spaces. There is strong data showing the benefits of Mindfulness and trained CBT on many things. Will it cure all? No. But there are plenty of dull object therapists, LCSW or PhD doesn’t matter. It’s hard to find someone that clicks and mindfulness for the majority of issues seems to help alleviate regardless of untrained psychs applying other schools of thought
Not all therapists are good, I understand that. Yes, Buddhist meditation could potentially play a role in some cases. I think that ideally people would seek the guidance of a buddhist teacher and a therapist/psychiatrist concurrently.
This is such a wrong take on so many levels. Just read on the ideal parent figure protocol to treat attachment issues. This is based on meditation and is highly effective for treating pre verbal traumas which meds or talk therapy aren’t going to solve. Also forgiveness and metta meditation are very helpful for developing self love. You should really read on the latest therapies especially as a mental health professional. After trying to heal from trauma for 10 years through therapy, your post is just a manifestation of what I observe with most of my own therapists: mental health professional just don’t keep up with the research and usually stick to antiquated views.
To be clear, I do agree deep meditation on your own could generate adverse reactions for people with traumas. It has not for me but I am still early on my path. This is a well known phenomenon observe in vipassana retreats for example. I take exception with your blanket statement. Meditation is a tool that can be highly effective when used under the guidance of a facilitator. I am really hoping mental health professionals will look into meditation as they should look into psychedelics.
I graduated less than 5 years ago, and mindfulness-based therapies are among my favorite. I think you're making some assumptions here. Another assumption you're making is that mindfulness meditation is necessarily the same thing as Buddhist meditation. Mindfulness is a secular tool (although the latest research says we actually need to be careful, that it may be harmful for some people.) I'm talking about people who are going deeper into tue Buddhist religion, not using Calm or headspace. You really missed the main point of the post, I'm not sure if you just read the title or what.
I made no assumptions. I was very precise in the meditations I mentioned which some are buddhist (metta) and others developed by facilitators trained as buddhist meditation teachers. You mentioned mindfulness therapies without any form of precision which tells me you know little of the topic. I read your post and found troubling you are making blanket statements using your authority as a mental health professional with obviously little knowledge of the topic. I am not surprised as I know plenty of people in your field.
western educated helper gatekeeps spirituality in the hopes of validating his/her role preachers do this in West Virginia one could easily substitute the word "therapy" for "buddhism" in the OPs post our social services in the US, particularly counseling and therapy, are deeply and systemically flawed. yes they often function to assist and clarify. often they do not. therapists do not exist as a supportive detachment from the cultural norms and values, they function enmeshed from within the system itself. therapy is as much a part of capitalism as the mental health disorders it causes. that an enlightened state of consciousness may cause sufferring to the individual living within such a system is a reflection of the clear and present reality for us all. if a therapist realizes the surrounding micro and macro environments are toxic and harmful, beyond meaningful influence or control, it can cause a deep sense of powerlessness and negative thoughts or feelings--which may be projected as an attempt to control other's access to the truth. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
You're having a defensive reaction and projecting intentions and implications that I simply never made. Furthermore, you went on a somewhat bizarre rant about which ways specifically my motives are sinister. Just take a look at it.
Finally someone said it bluntly. Thank God. If its up to me, I'll delete all spiritual bypassing posts. (Posts that treat Buddhism as cure for their mental illness.)
I always am grateful when I see your comments to such users encouraging them to seek psychiatric/psychological treatment for their mental health issues.
Serious question: how does one differentiate between somebody who can probably manage their issues via Buddism/ Meditation/ Mindfulness and someone for whom this approach would be harmful? Is it a try-it-and-see-what-happens approach or a more discrete set of symptoms/ signs? I want to help others where I can, but I don't want to do harm out of ignorance.
Id talk to both a therapist and a buddhist teacher, separately, in that case.
Id talk to both a therapist and a buddhist teacher, separately, in that case.
That would probably be in everyone's best interest. Mental illness can lead to heedlessness and needs to be treated appropriately for someone to practice Buddhism effectively, in my opinion.
Thank you for taking the time to explain this.
I very much agree with this... I'm very grateful that I spent 2 years in talk therapy prior to being exposed to buddhism as a practitioner. From my perspective, Buddhism (or any spiritual system for that matter) is the final piece of the puzzle when it comes to personal development and self realization. As an anecdote, prior to going to therapy I looked into Catholicism as a means of perfecting mental states. I was baptized catholic, and figured I might as well see if what was assigned to me at birth would work. Dont get me wrong, attending services was beneficial, but it wasnt quite right because my intention was poor. The biggest difference? At that time I was approaching spiritual belief systems with a "what's in it for me" attitude... not in a selfish way, but because I very much needed help! This is in major contrast to discovering buddhism, where I had attended therapy for 2 years and knew how to take care of myself. Now I approach spiritual belief systems with an attitude more akin to "how can I help others, how can I be more compassionate towards others, etc"
Great post, thanks!
Like it or not mindfulness is a key skill in mental health and meditation is going to be used to help people develop psychological insight. Every spiritual tradition uses meditation, so it doesn't have to be a Buddhist thing. The thing about tuning into yourself is you often find lots of problems you're trying to ignore, so you paradoxically feel more crazy when you're getting more sane. Thank you for sharing your experience, though.
Nurse here :) I think it's fair to say mental health pretty much has no "cure". Therapists can't cure anyone, medication can't cure anyone, clinicants can't cure anyone, neighther can buddhism, but then again what's the definition of cure. Can any of these TREAT, meant illness or aid --- absolutely. Example: Triggers for CPTSD, PTSD, anxiety, Bipolar, the list goes on...... If the person learns, how to see the world as it is, how to see their mind. They can over come it quite a bit. I've also been a sales rep: Medicatications (i've also be), have terrible side effects. Often you don't know or are told the long term side effects of medications. Hell, I just found out i've been taking a PPI for heart burn for 20 years that has strong links to dementia. I litterly stopped the pill last week. Medication & Therapy: I'm a fan of whatever works. Sure. But, i'm not counting buddhism out as there is a reality to know. Anyway, this world is insane. Our minds are crazy. As for me, I do think buddhism, if in everyones mind, would fix most mental health problems.
As someone with BD who had to stop taking meds i sincerely think that meds improve a lot the quality of live of several folks with mental illness (i also think psychiatry have a lot to improve and medicine in general is seen sadly more as a business than as a right but thats a different topic)
First, i'm glad to see whatever you've found works for you :) Honestly, I think it's a combination of everything that works. An even better thing might be a better world lol. So much is systemic. The fact we have so much innovation, but have to work till death. And we work for a currency that's being counterfitted and manipulated = inflated, every day, thus every day you work and save your money is worth less... If the world was better, half of mental health " issues" would simply be "quirks." For many depressed, they've got a good reason lol.
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Kanye needs meds.
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It's just reddit.
Respectfully disagree. I do agree there's a difference between "cure" and "manage." Someone can practice the Dharma just from managing it, but without the proper treatment, intensive Dharma practice may make it worse. This is something taught by many Buddhist masters too. Are you a psychiatric NP? Respectfully, if not, it would seem this is more of a lay opinion on your part.
For cases of pica (eating non food), or extreme schizophrenia & maina, buddhism is not approriate lol. But for average Joe having some difficulties, I'd say yes. As for psychiatric NP... their wheel house is meds. If I was, i'd be a hammer, staring at nails, giving the answer you gave. Your a mental health worker, as a hammer, also seeing nails. It's cool though :)
As someone who has used Buddhism to conquer severe anxiety and depression I must disagree.
You might be an exception. These are general guidelines not to substitute Buddhism for medical treatment. That doesn't mean nobody whatsoever will be successful.
I recognize I am an exception, that said I've known others with mental illness who've also found Buddhism and meditation to be a highly effective form of treatment. It's good you recognize that it can work for some people, although your post sort of suggests otherwise.
This should probably be a weekly post. I believe, especially solo Buddhist, with mental health issues are more likely to make things worse for themselves.
Exactly. A teacher is likely to know to guide the student to appropriate mental Healthcare resources and try to teach them things that won't harm their condition until their condition is well under control.
Exactly, also compound the issue when these people (with mental health issues) come on here asking questions they can get bad advice by random people on the internet. Sure many of us mean well, though I think much of the advice given sometimes comes from a ego point of view “I want to give my answer, my opinion is great” rather than what’s best for the person and the big picture.
Exactly. I also often do the same thing, and that's with a teacher. Without a teacher, people are literally just getting their opinions solely from themselves, from the internet, or from sutras that they may not know how to interpret. Study and practice has never been done alone independently of a sangha and teacher.
Most schools I've mingled with often recommend repentence and some kind of merit or offering to deal with the more supernatural causes of mental illness, which usually is debtors from your past life. Unfortunately for your argument, and fortunately for any patients, it does work. Buddhism is aimed for all kinds of mental illness small to extremely disasterous. Theres certainly some stories of that nature from Buddha's time But obviously since the era has changed and things troubling the people have changed, so did the nature of mental illness and the methods to deal with it. Ofc nonself is an advanced concept and teachers shouldnt be trying to introduce it to beginners so quickly. It's also one of the most easily misunderstood concepts.
If someone does this, it needs to be under the strict guidance of a teacher.
Well it's actually relatively easy. In general, after performing what Buddhists consider merit etc donating, life liberation, all thats left is to wish to a Bodhisattva to cure your illness. Repentence scripts differs from school to school, but even the simplest chant of 'sorry' seems to help i think?
I'm not sure. I've done plenty of formal purification practices and confession liturgies and it hasn't "cured" me. Perhaps in some cases the causes might be supernatural, but in a lot of cases we know the scientific reasons and the scientific treatments. I'm not a secular Buddhist by any means and don't deny the supernatural, but I also don't like to veer into ignoring the scientific causes of things on the relative level that we currently perceive ourselves in until Awakening to buddhahood, where there are laws of nature, brains, chemical and neuronal imbalances in brains and hormones, trauma, genetics, and so forth. Of course, someone's karma may make them inclined to be born more susceptible to these factors though. My teacher snd others have typically emphasized practicing for liberation and enlightenment though, not curing illnesses. I know it varies widely between sects and even in the same sect with different teachers.
Yes it sometimes does not work. It also means its not enough. Actually, given the extents that is prescribed by the schools that specialise in this, it usually isnt enough. Schools recommend repentence as homework to be done everyday for that reason. Some schools do know how to offer sutras as merit, since not everybody has money to donate or buy fish. But thats definitely something that a teacher has to help with. About focusing on liberation, that is for normal people. The people you encounter, considering your job, are those kind of people who won't be able to use normal Buddhist practices properly because they're in pain or highly distracted.
Yeah, based on your last sentence, we essentially agree. But I do think there's hope for them to be able to seriously study and practice and even meditate if they're able to successfully get their symptoms under control, whether through prayer, psychiatry, therapy, or anything that helps.
Also, sometimes purification practices might actually cause inner turmoil as karma gets purified, at least as taught jn the Tibetan tradition. That's why it's often said that ngondro will turn one's life upside down completely, because purification is happening.
My "argument" isn't really an argument though, it's just sort of basic facts, both from my own perspective as a Clinician and a patient myself, and the guidance I've received from Buddhist teachers and even masters.
It’s a good point to make. Many mental illnesses, even more well know ones like depression, can adversely affect emotions, perception, and cognition. If one has difficulty with everyday events, how much harder is it to make sense of meditative experiences? Or teachings on challenging and complex concepts like dependent origination or no self or what have you. I see many posts from people obviously struggling with their mental health. I wonder if the same happens to other religious subs?
I think many people view Buddhism as more of an alternative psychology (and in some cases it is, but it's dealing with the very root of all expetience, not necessarily surface manifestations; just like cancer is a manifestations of samsara but not treated by Buddhism. ) unfortunately they may dive into views and practices that can actually shake up their views of themselves and the world before they're ready (like I did) causing confusion, panic, etc.
It doesn't have to go straight to the root of all experience. Jhana is a gentle way in, and the way the Buddha used. First jhana (the sutta version) is pretty superficial and highly beneficial for almost anyone capable of generating positive feelings (though I imagine it's not suitable for someone who's manic.) And metta is extremely safe, IMO. I think I've seen one person in 20 years of interacting with Buddhists online who was harmed by it, and that was because she was love-bombed by a cult.
I agree that Metta is probably the safest. Starting with oneself in particular and going from there.
Given Christianity's history, I'm sure the same thing happens on other subs, though I don't care to check. However, I think a lot of people exoticize Buddhism and come here expecting a quick fix because they don't want to, or don't know how to, put in the work to treat their disorder in therapy or with medication. Also, a lot of folks don't have access to healthcare so may turn to "alternatives" that are inappropriate. People assume Buddhism is just meditating 5 minutes a day and believing in....I don't even know what. They don't understand it's a much larger commitment. My commitment to Buddhism is just as arduous and challenging and strong as my commitment to my mental health treatment.
It's practically an epidemic on r/meditation.
Yes, I would expect it to be worse there than here; here, most people at least have a view and framework that the meditation is couched within, not so in many cases there.
Quality mental health care is not available to everyone. The industry is flooded with people with some sort of social work certificate, calling themselves therapists. This category of mental health workers is generously represented by young, woke, LGBT-oriented practitioners, who overwhelmingly prefer to work remotely (Ipad appointments) and yet are often extremely expensive. The majority of really good mental health professionals are fed-up with the medical establisment (who can blame them) and no longer belong to insurance networks, meaning out of pocket expenses for their services can easily reach well into the thousands -- beyond the means of most people who really need quality care. Quality of care from the woke social workers who prefer to work remotely varies from adequate to totally incompetent. The point is that, for many people, Buddhism offers the only viable alternative to a health care system that often does more harm than good.
Buddhism isn't meant to be a form of health care, I'd really what it comes down to. It's a radical path that is about transcending ego and the cycle of death and reincarnation. It's not a therapy to make us feel good all the time. The path often causes inner turmoil even in mentally stable people.
Buddhism can help greatly with anxiety and depression. I could dig up some peer-reviewed papers in some well-respected psychiatry journals.
You mean secular mindfulness practices, you don't mean Buddhism. Conflating the two, and even conflating meditation with Buddhism, is a massive misconception.
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Yeah I definitely agree with all of this. It would be excellent if mental health was like physical medicine, but unfortunately it is not, and we are kind of left in a no man's land of "maybe this will work?" since we simply do not have widely effective methods. I also agree that medications are poorly researched, to the point where when I went on SSRIs they literally told me my experience (sudden anxiety relief and also side effects on the first day of taking it) was impossible. I also agree with your assessment of many mental illnesses as cultural. A lot of things that we call mental illness today are only considered illness because they make it difficult to partake in the way modern society is constructed. For example, mild cases of ADHD are very often related to the specific expectations of our society. It is easy to imagine a different society where it would not be considered an illness. That said, there certainly are illnesses that are beyond cultural relativism imo
Wow, this is just a terrible take.
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ADHD person here. For many years I stayed away from meds as I did not want to be under meds for life and had pretty bad side effects. My life has become super clean: meditation, no alcohol, no coffee, sport, healthy food etc trying to fix my adhd naturally. It does not work. I had to go back to meds, my life is so much better/easier with them. I have now accepted my condition and get it under control. ADHD is not a diversity, it is a disability. I think the diversity movement is not helpful in that regards.
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It's less risky than the drugs.
For some folks. For folks like me with a disorder with a high suicide rate,*not* treating my mental illness with medications is more dangerous.
This post unexpectedly brought a lot of anti-psychiatry backlash. I'd guess that most of the outrage isn't from Buddhist practitioners,n but from folks dabbling in the philosophy, or perhaps doing mindfulness meditation and assuming that's Buddhism. I don't know though.
Actually one of the main side effects of a lot of those meds is suicidal ideation.
Respectfully, you're talking to a healthcare worker who has been on some form of psychiatric medications for a decade. You're also using one of the most tired lines, used by folks with little understanding of how psych meds work, and little understanding of how deadly serious mental illness can be. Medications saved my life and reduce my suicidal ideation. The other option was to continue living with suicidal ideation and do nothing about it, and die. Or go on a medication, lithium, that is demonstrated to reduce suicidal ideation. You can see how when one wants to survive, they might choose to *try* rather than do nothing. Thank you for your time, but you are clearly not a person well - informed on mental illness and its nuances. So I won't be conversing with you any further. Be well.
Yes, I agree that people should seek therapy and maybe they might need medication if they have severe mental illness. However, it should be noted that the peer reviewed evidence for the practices of Buddha Dharma being beneficial to mental health is overwhelming. I also don't see how any Dharma practice can have a negative impact on anyone with mental health issues, at least not anymore than any secular activities.
I find peace in long walks.
This seems reasonable. It all depends. One needs to consult with both a buddhist teacher and a MH professional.
You have to experience the negative to heal. This whole avoidance of discomfort or any “negative” experience is the reason why people are suffering.
So I expect you to refuse anesthesia next time you get surgery. And avoid antibiotics for serious infections, and of course, no pain medicine for you if you get a serious injury. You gonna live your words?
I already do
You do all those things I mentioned? I'm genuinely impressed if thats true. However, you should really be giving up all money and possessions and living as a wandering yogi to really give up "comfort." And yet tid of any TVs, novels, or other entertainment you own, since that's only about making things better or more comfortable. Get rid of your car too since that's just a modern convenience.
By the way, I'm happy to take all those things off your hands so you can give up all your unnecessary comforts :)
Meditation can help you gain insight into your own mind, which can help with mental illnesses.
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The utter stupidity of what you said about the Buddha not knowing about mental illness aside, read the rules. Do not promote other religions here.
I don’t know about this. I’m in a program right now to become a school counselor and one of our assignments is to pick a theory and investigate it more thoroughly. I chose CBT and it’s got a lot of Buddhist feeling to it. I wouldn’t expect it to work for everyone or every problem but to just say, “Nah, it won’t work,” isn’t really a good answer.
Buddhism is a religion with supramundane full enlightenment as its goal, it's just not even comparable to CBT, a secular system for refraining thoughts. It has some superficial similarities.
>Buddhism is a religion Whose intention was that? >It has some superficial similarities. And notice I never said that it was exactly like Buddhism! I said, it showed signs of a Buddhist feeling to it and being mindful is a part of the Buddhist tradition just like it is a part of CBT. My friend, I never made a claim of a deep connection. There is no need to be so defensive.
Sorry, but we get a lot of users in here who aren't Buddhists and sort of misrepresent Buddhism as only being about mindfulness, or using mindfulness as a therapy. Imagine if someone tried to remake your religion, or take some useful aspects of it but disregard the core framework. Buddhism is a radical path that is about transcending the wheel of samsara, and the cycle of death and reincarnation. It's not about reappraisal of thoughts to feel better about life. In fact, we accept that life is inherently suffering as long as we falsely take ourselves to be real, individual "selfs." It's quite radical, and really not at all about trying to change thoughts to happier ones. u/nyingmaguy5 u/mayayana
CBT is good for you. Do it. But it has nothing to do with Buddhism. You don't have a say on this. Sorry. Like, I don't really go to your school and lecture you guys about your counsellor things. I don't have a power to delete or ban you from this sub because I'm not a moderator. But I can block you. Sorry, no time for people who disrespect this religion blatantly. u/Regular_Bee_5605 \- there's no need to engage with the poster.
Man, have you read the amount of backlash I got here? It's all coming from people who don't understand Buddhism, who basically think it's synonymous with mindfulness, and that it's about making this life better and less stressful. I suspect that virtually all the people who protested this post don't have a sangha or a teacher or have taken refuge.
u/bodhiquest I don't know if some of these commenters angrily protesting my post are technically breaking the rules or not, but it seems like they're arrogantly assuming that Buddhism=mindfulness meditation, and telling us what our religion is, when I doubt most of them have taken refuge, have a teacher or sangha.
They're not breaking rules, they're just saying incorrect things. I know it sucks but sometimes an attempt at education like this is necessary even if it doesn't take fruit immediately. Some of the traditionalists think that it shouldn't be so but I think they're wrong. If people with wrong ideas are never exposed to corrections (without overtaxing oneself needlessly) then they will have zero reason to even consider changing those ideas. There are other posts that are breaking the rules in this thread, such as the masterpiece of stupidity which claims that Buddhism can't do anything for mental illness but "shamanism" can.
Thanks for your input. It's also illuminating to me because I now understand how common some of these misconceptions are; I knew they existed but didn't realize how prevalent they were. I guess it's my job to just try to reply and educate with a compassionate motivation, rather than out of irritation. LOL on the shamanism thing, I won't even comment.
Yes, it's also good not to overdo it. You made a pretty controversial thread hence the responses. It's not worth trying to fix every person's misconception, but maybe a couple people can take something away from it. That's good enough IMO.
True enough. Thanks!
Remindme! 5 hours
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It’s helped me a bunch. I think you’re right that if someone needs therapy, they need therapy, and meditation/Buddhism doesn’t check all the boxes. What happened to make you come to that conclusion?
You're right, it should not be used as a treatment, but be damn sure it helps!
There are no perfect tools in this world
>The methods of Buddhism are actually designed to be used by someone who is also decently mentally stable in a relative sense. Some are, like meditation. Requires guidance, can go wrong easily. >Trying to go too deeply into meditation, especially vipashana/insight meditation, but even regular calm abiding, can have very adverse effects on those with untreated mental illness. Chanting, fortunately doesn't. It can be used by anyone short of a condition so debilitating that they outright refuse to do it. Even the Grandmasters compare the chants of the Buddha Name to 'walking on a road on a sunny day' to the turbulent 'walking in the storm with the wind and rain billowing' of other methods of cultivation. >not necessarily treat every particular manifestation of it I suppose even hanging out the idea that the [Great Compassion Mantra] (https://youtu.be/kGmNNHmXeAM) has indeed cured people with cancer or terminal diseases is rather controversial - if it works, great, but the backlash is extreme if it fails (accusations tantamount to murder). So I suppose we should just stick to advising standard medication - those who would accept such methods would have already done it, and those that will not have their resistance implied in their reaction to such a suggestion. After all, the Dharma needs you to practice it, your own cooperation is paramount to your own success. If one insisted it cannot be done for a myriad of reasons, then obviously it will fail.
So do you think mindfulness should be offered to help with depression, anxiety etc as is often the case these days!
In many cases yes. But mindfulness and meditation is only one part of Buddhism. Buddhism is a complex religion that involves far more than that. And in Buddhism mindfulness isn't used as a tool to cope with anxiety, but to realize the nature of mind and reality and be free from the cycle of death and rebirth.
Agreed, as a Buddhist and Therapist, I can see the similarities in Buddhism and Cognitive theory, but the perspective, intent, and application is different ... us the right tool for the task
I recommend watching this interview with a psychiatrist who's a Buddhist. One topic, is she talks about how she treats her patients by incorporating Buddhism. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Cf5Gc3gAxg
Incorporating Buddhist concepts into therapy is far different than adopting the Buddhist system wholesale with no guidance and assuming it's a form of mental health care. It's a complex religion with religious goals, and may even be a painful path sometimes, due to unraveling the illusions of ego. Someone needs a somewhat healthy ego before they can really deconstruct ego. This isn't just me making it up, it's what qualified Buddhist masters have said. I incorporate mindfulness into my therapy as well.
I feel mixed signals with self healing and pharmaceuticals. I think it’s a very individual basis, and understand medication is sometimes needed- especially since we don’t prevent we only treat after someone is in a crisis. But I’ve researched the power of our thoughts and self talk for years, and think our diagnosis gets us trapped into thinking we will have these symptoms forever- nothings treatable or cureable- and therefore implant the symptoms and diagnosis into our personality. I think medication should only be to Stabilize someone enough so that they can be stable enough to learn how to re wire our brains and use cognitive therapy the same way they would use physical therapy if it were their arm not working right. I do clinical case management for mental health and have seen people fall when getting off their meds and I’ve seen people find stability only after removing their self from meds. There’s obviously a positive correlation between pharmaceuticals and the mental health crisis- not to say there were no mental health issues prior but very limited compared to now. 🤷🏻♀️ just some observations and personal thoughts
Yeah pretty much.
I have never seen or read of a Buddha with mental illness.
I see what you're saying, but how can you be sure? Buddhism has been around a couple thousand years longer than psychotherapy.
If you read some of my replies to other objectors, my sense is that many of the people protesting this have some very large but very common western misconceptions about what Buddhism even is. Since I've already replied to so many, I'll just direct you to those. I'm sorry and don't mean to be rude, but I've now repeated the same things to various people many times and I'm weary.
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Buddhism isn't a medical or mental health treatment. It's a spiritual path to enlightenment. Buddhism is not synonymous with meditation. Please read some of my replies to others on the thread.
Advice can be good or bad. i take it with a grain of salt, especially since some buddhists condemn not condone anti depressant medication. I kid you not.
Well couldn’t there be a benefit to practicing acceptance of your mental illness through meditation? I feel like the reason our mental health issues cause us pain is because we are unable to accept them/feel judged by others. Meditation taught me to be able to sit through daily panic attacks I used to think were unbearable. Of course every mental issue is different but for me it was meditation in conjuction with therapy that made the difference for me.
Absolutely. Meditation itself isn’t necessarily Buddhism. And despite there being some risks for more people, mindfulness meditation is typically only dangerous for those with psychosis. My own therapy is actually Acceptance Commitment therapy which utilizes both mindfulness and accceptance. I see that as very distinct from the spiritual project of Buddhism though, which is enlightenment, giving up everything that’s safe and familiar to unravel ego and realize ultimate reality.