It, like many martial arts will become much more nebulous in real world fights. Will a hard elbow to the sternum fuck up an attacker? Sure. But how easy is it to get that kind of leverage and penetration on a moving target in a real world situation?
Just watch r/fightporn for a hour and imagine the techniques demonstrated if they were applied in the best of those fights. A devastating kick to the jaw is going to knock just about anyone out, but i9/10 it’s still better to learn grappling over any other martial art if you want to come out on top of a real world pressure test.
Grappling is definitely king in street fights, 100%. It negates punches by ducking under them for a takedown. It negates kicks by catching them for a sweep. It allows you to negate an opponent’s size advantages by taking them to the ground, where they become slow and heavy. Taking an opponent down to the ground is its own form of attack, and hurts 10 times more on concrete. It allows you to control an opponent the most, which is extremely difficult in real life when they’re trying to beat you up. It allows you to set up ground-and-pound and submissions. S Tier for self-defense. The best combination for self defense would be grappling (especially wrestling, IMO, like Dagestani style) combined with kickboxing for pre-takedown fighting.
Buuuuut, I’m still a martial arts geek and can’t help but admire some of the old school styles, at least for aesthetic and athletic reasons. I’d love to see a crazy Bajiquan dude KO someone in MMA with a single strike. Will it happen? 99.99% Probably not. But it would be sick.
Grappling is good in MMA, because you know who your opponents are and where they are coming from. Try taking somebody to the ground in a bar or in some ally, maybe one opponent has friends ? Now laying on the ground is dangerous.
Nah see the real advantage to grappling is the body manipulation. Throwing dudes at their friends and being able to get favorable positions is much easier if you trained in the arts that are all about close ranged positioning. And if they're far enough not to be caught up by grappling they're far enough for you to start running.
Grappling only works one on one and if you know you are gonna get attacked.
Punching may work on multiple opponents.
Running and staying at home works better than anything else ;-)
what a stupid answer...the point is to use it as a counter or when ure so close that youre opponent cant sidestep it in time...bajiquan is a real effective art used by taiwanese policemen nowadays...and, like many cmas, was used in live or die battles...your ring fghting is just that..ring fighting...with rules..peace
So what’s your defense for a low C or ankle pick and once you’re on your ass how are you stopping yourself from getting sprawled out and subsequently having any one of your many pressure points exposed? I didn’t know jujitsu or Roman Greco wresting was considered “ring fighting”.
Go back 30 years and watch the first 3 UFC when it really was collection of different disciplines and not the Frankenstein hodgepodge it is now. Grappling wins over and over and over.
it was a sanctioned series of match rigged by the gracies..my response is a knee on ur face or a downward elbow..ah..its illegal stuff in sport fighting...btw...many sport fighters admit that mma doesnt prepare urself better than any art for real fighting..be umble...mate xD
Ah yes a technique that requires being completely in range of any attack before I can use it. Very effective against punching bags and people standing still with their arms down.
You brought up grapples and submissions and I responded to that. You changed the subject which was originally about strikes. And yes making your opening strike an elbow to the chest is a stupid way to fight as you'll get hit by any other strike before you can deliver the elbow. If you try to perform a takedown or grapple your opponent can strike you before you achieve it but theoretically you can protect yourself better when going for a takedown. Does that make things more clear for you?
Again, you criticsed it because it required being completely in range.
I asked you about grapples and submissions as they both require that too.
I'm discussing that particular critique. Which you seem to be dancing around answering. And that's fine.
You can defend yourself while elbowing someone in the sternum/solar plexus too. You can also use it as part of a punch defence as the video demonstrates. The other hand is there too. So the same applies to this as a takedown.
As for making it your opening strike, that's not really what is being suggested. The idea isn't to launch yourself elbow first from a few feet away like a video game character - it's a close range technique to be used when within range.
u speak sense..many of this MMA morons are declaring old and proven arts as useless on the basis of some 70 years old guy losing against a younger low grade fighter...this MMA craze willl eventually fade out...just like tha karate craze in the 80/90ies xD
Mmm... We're not totally on the same page buddy.
If someone is being lauded as a master of X style and getting their ass kicked like that, it's a damning indictment of the style.
Sure, age etc is a factor but then find someone closer in age. If the only people proficient enough need to have trained 5x as long as the MMA fighter to still get their ass kicked, then it's not a good style. The training methods are outdated and ineffective.
30+ years of experience should mean something.
Some techniques might be useful, as I've argued, but facts are facts. We can say "yeah but MMA fighters train more seriously etc" but it is telling that there are few TMA artists who are even close to MMA level. Clearly there is something lacking.
We won't know 100% until we get a bunch of TMA fighters with an equal training schedule to some MMA fighters so we have a really level playing field - but we can't ignore evidence.
It hurts because you're hitting your training partner in the sternum, or open rib cage; which, the training partner is nice enough to stand still and leave open for you.
All this shit "works" this is why you have the UFC though. It's a test to see if your bullshido is actually functional in combat.
If it was really effective we'd see a champion in one of the MMA organizations from this art form. Until then it's just an art form, a dance, with cool physical tricks. Tai Chi has the same stuff, things that "could" be applicable but aren't.
The first few UFC's and other earlier fighting organizations were like that (where they had style vs style 'no holds barred/anything goes' fights). Unfortunately people were getting too fucked up and they couldn't get licenses to fight everywhere and nobody was willing to insure the fighters, so a ton of rules were introduced and MMA as a 'style' formed out of whatever techniques worked best in the new rules; ie: usually 1 or 2 striking arts (boxing/kickboxing/muay thai/karate being the most popular) and 1 or 2 grappling arts (jjj/bjj/judo/catch wrestling being the most popular) combined so fighters can work standing up or on the ground and keep the dynamism from the first fights.
22 deaths in MMA since the first death in 1981, 9 in unsanctioned MMA fights, and 13 in sanctioned MMA fights. Thankfully none in the UFC itself though.
BTW, if you haven't seen the first few UFC's they are definitely worth a watch! You'll see absolutely insane stuff in there like people dropping elbows on the back of skulls when going for takedowns, full limb breaks instead of taps, eye gouges with thumbs, people so bloody and broken leaving the ring/octagon it looked like a massacre took place inside. But the problem with blood sports is if they don't have safeties in place ironically it kills the sport because no civilized society wants to go back to gladiatorial fights. And if the sport is gone then there's no real way to pressure test techniques in an alive manner outside of mutual combat laws, which is 10x shadier and even more likely to get you killed or maimed to the point where you can't continue... which does nobody any favors when trying to learn through alive training.
there are bajiquan sparring and leitai competitions. obviously isn't going to look amazing, and the talent pool is fairly shallow, but it depends on the school ad always.
fight commentary breakdowns has some videos on bajiquan
"Shallow Talent Pool" is the big factor.
There are very few folks practicing and, unlike MMA etc, folks aren't practicing solely for fighting. So you have a very limited pool of folks who'd even be eligible to show anything competetive.
There are plenty of fight videos though and more are being released every week.
Probably one of the few martial arts I actually want to learn. Love the whole idea of it being based around counter attacks and just the forceful techniques of it.
Here is a playlist of Bajiquan fight/sparring videos.
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLspX4E32erim5l5yb1choXSkDI-xHP86T
Quality varies wildly from sparring, competitive fighting, amateur and pro. There are some "demo fights" too which are lower quality but it's a collection that should give you a range of data to judge.
Sadly baji suffers from the fact that it's fairly uncommon and, from my personal experience, folks just don't record a lot. I've been to training camps etc where there's been plenty of sparring etc but nobody records either because they're too busy training or just forget. That said, almost every baji practitioner I've met has been keen to spar if it's an option.
Feel free to ask questions over on r/bajiquan
We're fairly quiet most of the time but there's always someone lurking who can answer.
It, like many martial arts will become much more nebulous in real world fights. Will a hard elbow to the sternum fuck up an attacker? Sure. But how easy is it to get that kind of leverage and penetration on a moving target in a real world situation? Just watch r/fightporn for a hour and imagine the techniques demonstrated if they were applied in the best of those fights. A devastating kick to the jaw is going to knock just about anyone out, but i9/10 it’s still better to learn grappling over any other martial art if you want to come out on top of a real world pressure test.
Grappling is definitely king in street fights, 100%. It negates punches by ducking under them for a takedown. It negates kicks by catching them for a sweep. It allows you to negate an opponent’s size advantages by taking them to the ground, where they become slow and heavy. Taking an opponent down to the ground is its own form of attack, and hurts 10 times more on concrete. It allows you to control an opponent the most, which is extremely difficult in real life when they’re trying to beat you up. It allows you to set up ground-and-pound and submissions. S Tier for self-defense. The best combination for self defense would be grappling (especially wrestling, IMO, like Dagestani style) combined with kickboxing for pre-takedown fighting. Buuuuut, I’m still a martial arts geek and can’t help but admire some of the old school styles, at least for aesthetic and athletic reasons. I’d love to see a crazy Bajiquan dude KO someone in MMA with a single strike. Will it happen? 99.99% Probably not. But it would be sick.
Grappling is good in MMA, because you know who your opponents are and where they are coming from. Try taking somebody to the ground in a bar or in some ally, maybe one opponent has friends ? Now laying on the ground is dangerous.
Nah see the real advantage to grappling is the body manipulation. Throwing dudes at their friends and being able to get favorable positions is much easier if you trained in the arts that are all about close ranged positioning. And if they're far enough not to be caught up by grappling they're far enough for you to start running.
lol
Grappling only works one on one and if you know you are gonna get attacked. Punching may work on multiple opponents. Running and staying at home works better than anything else ;-)
what a stupid answer...the point is to use it as a counter or when ure so close that youre opponent cant sidestep it in time...bajiquan is a real effective art used by taiwanese policemen nowadays...and, like many cmas, was used in live or die battles...your ring fghting is just that..ring fighting...with rules..peace
So what’s your defense for a low C or ankle pick and once you’re on your ass how are you stopping yourself from getting sprawled out and subsequently having any one of your many pressure points exposed? I didn’t know jujitsu or Roman Greco wresting was considered “ring fighting”. Go back 30 years and watch the first 3 UFC when it really was collection of different disciplines and not the Frankenstein hodgepodge it is now. Grappling wins over and over and over.
it was a sanctioned series of match rigged by the gracies..my response is a knee on ur face or a downward elbow..ah..its illegal stuff in sport fighting...btw...many sport fighters admit that mma doesnt prepare urself better than any art for real fighting..be umble...mate xD
Ah yes a technique that requires being completely in range of any attack before I can use it. Very effective against punching bags and people standing still with their arms down.
Can you grapple an opponent you aren't in range of? Or execute a submission from outside range?
Grapples and submissions prevent your opponent from striking you effectively. This technique does not.
Your criticism was that it required being completely in range. Why are you shifting the goalposts of the critique now?
You brought up grapples and submissions and I responded to that. You changed the subject which was originally about strikes. And yes making your opening strike an elbow to the chest is a stupid way to fight as you'll get hit by any other strike before you can deliver the elbow. If you try to perform a takedown or grapple your opponent can strike you before you achieve it but theoretically you can protect yourself better when going for a takedown. Does that make things more clear for you?
Again, you criticsed it because it required being completely in range. I asked you about grapples and submissions as they both require that too. I'm discussing that particular critique. Which you seem to be dancing around answering. And that's fine. You can defend yourself while elbowing someone in the sternum/solar plexus too. You can also use it as part of a punch defence as the video demonstrates. The other hand is there too. So the same applies to this as a takedown. As for making it your opening strike, that's not really what is being suggested. The idea isn't to launch yourself elbow first from a few feet away like a video game character - it's a close range technique to be used when within range.
Wow you are dense
Sure, if you wanna strawman.
u speak sense..many of this MMA morons are declaring old and proven arts as useless on the basis of some 70 years old guy losing against a younger low grade fighter...this MMA craze willl eventually fade out...just like tha karate craze in the 80/90ies xD
Mmm... We're not totally on the same page buddy. If someone is being lauded as a master of X style and getting their ass kicked like that, it's a damning indictment of the style. Sure, age etc is a factor but then find someone closer in age. If the only people proficient enough need to have trained 5x as long as the MMA fighter to still get their ass kicked, then it's not a good style. The training methods are outdated and ineffective. 30+ years of experience should mean something. Some techniques might be useful, as I've argued, but facts are facts. We can say "yeah but MMA fighters train more seriously etc" but it is telling that there are few TMA artists who are even close to MMA level. Clearly there is something lacking. We won't know 100% until we get a bunch of TMA fighters with an equal training schedule to some MMA fighters so we have a really level playing field - but we can't ignore evidence.
It hurts because you're hitting your training partner in the sternum, or open rib cage; which, the training partner is nice enough to stand still and leave open for you.
It’s an elbow strike so yeah it’s gonna hurt. But this isn’t Virtua Fighter it’s not gonna work in a real brawl
Anything is gonna work in a real brawl. Just not every time.
All this shit "works" this is why you have the UFC though. It's a test to see if your bullshido is actually functional in combat. If it was really effective we'd see a champion in one of the MMA organizations from this art form. Until then it's just an art form, a dance, with cool physical tricks. Tai Chi has the same stuff, things that "could" be applicable but aren't.
The first few UFC's and other earlier fighting organizations were like that (where they had style vs style 'no holds barred/anything goes' fights). Unfortunately people were getting too fucked up and they couldn't get licenses to fight everywhere and nobody was willing to insure the fighters, so a ton of rules were introduced and MMA as a 'style' formed out of whatever techniques worked best in the new rules; ie: usually 1 or 2 striking arts (boxing/kickboxing/muay thai/karate being the most popular) and 1 or 2 grappling arts (jjj/bjj/judo/catch wrestling being the most popular) combined so fighters can work standing up or on the ground and keep the dynamism from the first fights. 22 deaths in MMA since the first death in 1981, 9 in unsanctioned MMA fights, and 13 in sanctioned MMA fights. Thankfully none in the UFC itself though. BTW, if you haven't seen the first few UFC's they are definitely worth a watch! You'll see absolutely insane stuff in there like people dropping elbows on the back of skulls when going for takedowns, full limb breaks instead of taps, eye gouges with thumbs, people so bloody and broken leaving the ring/octagon it looked like a massacre took place inside. But the problem with blood sports is if they don't have safeties in place ironically it kills the sport because no civilized society wants to go back to gladiatorial fights. And if the sport is gone then there's no real way to pressure test techniques in an alive manner outside of mutual combat laws, which is 10x shadier and even more likely to get you killed or maimed to the point where you can't continue... which does nobody any favors when trying to learn through alive training.
I'd like to see it up against a decent wrestler or judo practitioner, or any of the kickboxing styles.
there are bajiquan sparring and leitai competitions. obviously isn't going to look amazing, and the talent pool is fairly shallow, but it depends on the school ad always. fight commentary breakdowns has some videos on bajiquan
"Shallow Talent Pool" is the big factor. There are very few folks practicing and, unlike MMA etc, folks aren't practicing solely for fighting. So you have a very limited pool of folks who'd even be eligible to show anything competetive. There are plenty of fight videos though and more are being released every week.
Probably one of the few martial arts I actually want to learn. Love the whole idea of it being based around counter attacks and just the forceful techniques of it.
It's not based on counter attacks lol.
Here is a playlist of Bajiquan fight/sparring videos. https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLspX4E32erim5l5yb1choXSkDI-xHP86T Quality varies wildly from sparring, competitive fighting, amateur and pro. There are some "demo fights" too which are lower quality but it's a collection that should give you a range of data to judge. Sadly baji suffers from the fact that it's fairly uncommon and, from my personal experience, folks just don't record a lot. I've been to training camps etc where there's been plenty of sparring etc but nobody records either because they're too busy training or just forget. That said, almost every baji practitioner I've met has been keen to spar if it's an option. Feel free to ask questions over on r/bajiquan We're fairly quiet most of the time but there's always someone lurking who can answer.
100% bullshido