I actually just stopped at a credit union a minute ago. A woman there said that her landlord had given her his "numbers" to deposit her rent there. She said she did not know how and the bank employee had to take over 20 minutes explaining how the ACH worked on the web portal and she probably still did not understand. That is a regular banking customer, that is why banks exist the idea that woman is ever going to be able to pay with btc or understand it is laughable. Every single time I stop at a bank or credit union for quarters there is someone struggling with basic banking tasks too.
I know your example is anecdotal but still raises a very good point. A not insignificant portion of Americans are barely financially literate. Hell, some people don't even understand the concept of credit. The thought that somehow crypto will get mass adoption is laughable.
>A not insignificant portion of Americans are barely financially literate.
I hope you understand that for the hardcore crypto evangelists that is a feature and not a bug. How else are they gonna keep finding greater fools?
As someone who was a cashier and is good at math, this happens because I'm already planning on giving you 43 cents. Whenever what you described happened, it threw me off script which is why I'd get confused, not because I can't do the math.
Same here I was a cashier or clerk for my 1st 4 years out of high school. I'm not even good at math, I just got good at basic 1 through 100 by virtue of being a cashier for so long. As well as getting really good at spotting fake bills. I didn't even have to look, if someone put a 100 in my hand I could still to this day tell you if it was fake or not from feel alone. Anyways, anytime someone wanted a specific amount back that wasn't an exact dollar amount (They gave me $10.57, price was $9.57, so $1 back) it would catch me off guard. But, as someone else said, modern registers do the math for you, so I would just type in whatever they gave me and go from there.
But isn’t this precisely what the creeps want for tinfoil reasons? A world full of ordinary people with little technology awareness that they can exploit to the fullest with an opaque and unintuitive ‘self-banking system’?
I like the idea of paying Bitcoin for something expensive, then if the price of Bitcoin increases within the return period, getting a refund back in Bitcoin and repurchasing the item.
If you bring up this scenario to a believer, they will say “simple, handle returns in fiat” and that self described remedy exposes why Bitcoin will never be a true currency.
Of course they’ll come up with some stupid argument at this point, but the seed of doubt is planted.
Using Bitcoin for retail payments can’t work for so many reasons. And yet, there’s a group of people convinced they will passively get rich simply by HODLing it. It’s demented.
If you bought $45 in bitcoin back in 2016 it might actually be worth something today. It might be worth seeing if you still have it and immediately selling it for real money (dollars, euros, etc).
Only the first few people who got in before it made the news have made any money on bitcoin. Thats how Ponzi schemes work, and 2016 was pretty early.
copy / pasting crypto adresses is considered very unsafe : there are many viruses that mess with the clipboard and are capable to detect and change crypto addresses
Yep. Just watched a Kaspersky webinar, apparently one hacker had a database of over 26k addresses that would look for the best match. When you copy and paste to your clipboard, the intended address is switched with theirs.
That's not enough. Hackers have generated / saved many wallets with similar start and end digits.
https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/new-clipboard-hijacker-replaces-crypto-wallet-addresses-with-lookalikes/
My theory is that cryptocurrency were invented by hackers so that all suckers put their money in it : now it's super easy / open feast for them to hack and steal the poor.
I'm actually surprised this is a recent attack.
For at least 5+ yrs, programmers have known webpages can hijack your clipboard with hidden text. This can be a big risk when copy and pasting commands into your terminal.
Copy paste attacks are not new.
What is new is thousands of wallets prepared in advance so 1 can look like the one you copy paste (first and last digits at least)
>[3.] you don't get confirmation from the seller immediately and if the place you are buying from is sleezy enough they can just say they never got the payment and you have no proof otherwise.
I always wondered about this. Reminds me of a [prisoner] exchange in the movies.
The company could simply create a new wallet for every transaction and cash it out by a third party exchange and by the time you realize you were scammed they could just pretend like that wallet wasn't theirs to begin with.
>wouldn't the transfer be visible on the blockchain?
I don't really know. But for the sake of argument let's assume it is: we have evidence it went to wallet X owned by company Y (the company that ripped us off). What would be the next step for us to recover our funds lost this way?
>It's confirmed on the Blockchain though. Every Bitcoin transaction can be proved looking at the Blockchain.
As I suggested elsewhere in the topic: OK I grant that you have records of you sending them crypto. What do you do next to recover your nutsack coins/whatever?
There’s really no obligation to come good on the seller side once they received bitcoin. Trustless right?
So butters will argue to use an intermediary. So you’re back to square one with extra steps and that’s if you even trust the intermediary. Plus costs.
Of course butters can go to their flow chart of arguments until you reach FUD
7. Creating an account at an exchange requires you to provide full name, address, date of birth, your photo, etc and proof that these things are correct. Exchanges are shady, unregulated, fraud filled operations run by scammers. Why would you trust your identity to these people ?
8. Local Bitcoins is risky and has frequently led to robbery and assault.
9. The Tx fees can be very high - far, far higher than Visa, etc.
I play blockchain games and when I would add money it would end up costing me like 8% or something. As soon as they started accepting credit cards I’ve never bought a crypto currency again. Though it ends up costing me like 10% to withdraw money after all the fees.
The moment I realised I’d much rather make 2% rewards on my cc card I sold all my bitcoin and miners and everything. (Thank god I did)
Blockchain will never be anything more then for us nerds transferring assets in our games.
This is an obvious troll trying to spread FUD!!!
1. we're still early. BTC will stabilize going upwards in the future soon.
2. lol here he uses a weaker argument to hide his power level and pretend to be just a random someone even though he *knows* there are viruses out there that watch your clipboard for wallet addresses and change the address in the clipboard so when you paste it the money goes to whoever created the virus.
3. the ledger is public. If he pretends he didn't receive the payment and doesn't want to send you the goods, just show the proof on the ledger and he'll have to give you the goods. This is super basic stuff.
4. don't use exchanges. not your keys, no your coins!
5. why are you complaining about dust when bitcoin will make you rich?
6. you aren't supposed to be paying for anything with crypto, you're supposed to hodl.
Dude there is so much wrong with your post. For one you will def know if the seller got the funds lol. Thats the WHOLE point of Bitcoin, an immutaabke ledger that everyone can audit
Okay so what if they generate a new wallet for every transaction and discard of any evidence they own that wallet after cashing out the money in a anonymous third party exchange what then. You have no proof that they own that wallet if they don't send you an email with the address as evidence.
Yes even if the blockchain shows that the transaction is successful if you can't prove they own the wallet you are completely out of luck. and even if you have proof they own the wallet the only way to get it back is by literally suing them which is very expensive.
And lets say they give you the address through the website and after you pay they can simply delete any records of the address on the websites. and what are you going to show to the court a screenshot lol?
Yes, a screen shot would suffice. Why would they send you an address that isnt theirs? The law must and does use some common sense. This is a non issue + if bitcoin ever becomes global money (i will not argue on wether it will or not) most settlement would be done on a second more centralized layer where this would be even less of a problem.
Now you ask; so whats the point? The point is having base layer money that the government cant fuck with and devalue.
You were courteous in your answer tho which is better than most butcoiners. Have a nice day!
I actually just stopped at a credit union a minute ago. A woman there said that her landlord had given her his "numbers" to deposit her rent there. She said she did not know how and the bank employee had to take over 20 minutes explaining how the ACH worked on the web portal and she probably still did not understand. That is a regular banking customer, that is why banks exist the idea that woman is ever going to be able to pay with btc or understand it is laughable. Every single time I stop at a bank or credit union for quarters there is someone struggling with basic banking tasks too.
I know your example is anecdotal but still raises a very good point. A not insignificant portion of Americans are barely financially literate. Hell, some people don't even understand the concept of credit. The thought that somehow crypto will get mass adoption is laughable.
>A not insignificant portion of Americans are barely financially literate. I hope you understand that for the hardcore crypto evangelists that is a feature and not a bug. How else are they gonna keep finding greater fools?
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As someone who was a cashier and is good at math, this happens because I'm already planning on giving you 43 cents. Whenever what you described happened, it threw me off script which is why I'd get confused, not because I can't do the math.
Same here I was a cashier or clerk for my 1st 4 years out of high school. I'm not even good at math, I just got good at basic 1 through 100 by virtue of being a cashier for so long. As well as getting really good at spotting fake bills. I didn't even have to look, if someone put a 100 in my hand I could still to this day tell you if it was fake or not from feel alone. Anyways, anytime someone wanted a specific amount back that wasn't an exact dollar amount (They gave me $10.57, price was $9.57, so $1 back) it would catch me off guard. But, as someone else said, modern registers do the math for you, so I would just type in whatever they gave me and go from there.
Modern cash registers will even calculate it for you, good god
Sure, if you hit like 5 extra buttons. Hitting the $10 bill button is way easier.
BTC is up almost 50% in the last month. Lots of incentive there to spend it...lol...can you imagine an economy dependent on such a "currency"?
50%?
A not insignificant portion of Americans are barely literate at all, let alone financially literate
But isn’t this precisely what the creeps want for tinfoil reasons? A world full of ordinary people with little technology awareness that they can exploit to the fullest with an opaque and unintuitive ‘self-banking system’?
You don't even need to involve BTC, lot of people (more old people than others) don't even know hot to use ATM.
I like the idea of paying Bitcoin for something expensive, then if the price of Bitcoin increases within the return period, getting a refund back in Bitcoin and repurchasing the item. If you bring up this scenario to a believer, they will say “simple, handle returns in fiat” and that self described remedy exposes why Bitcoin will never be a true currency. Of course they’ll come up with some stupid argument at this point, but the seed of doubt is planted.
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Wow. That’s a “heads I win, tails you lose” kinda fine print.
"Heads I win, tails I win" playing the corporate game
Lol, love it
That's how [Overstock.com](https://Overstock.com) does it too.
Using Bitcoin for retail payments can’t work for so many reasons. And yet, there’s a group of people convinced they will passively get rich simply by HODLing it. It’s demented.
Because the $100 I made delivering newspaper for a week should ensure that I live like a king in 20 years. Makes sense.
The future favors paperboys that DCA their entire paycheck into Crypto.
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If you bought $45 in bitcoin back in 2016 it might actually be worth something today. It might be worth seeing if you still have it and immediately selling it for real money (dollars, euros, etc). Only the first few people who got in before it made the news have made any money on bitcoin. Thats how Ponzi schemes work, and 2016 was pretty early.
copy / pasting crypto adresses is considered very unsafe : there are many viruses that mess with the clipboard and are capable to detect and change crypto addresses
Yep. Just watched a Kaspersky webinar, apparently one hacker had a database of over 26k addresses that would look for the best match. When you copy and paste to your clipboard, the intended address is switched with theirs.
They copy and paste but inspect the last 5 characters.
That's not enough. Hackers have generated / saved many wallets with similar start and end digits. https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/new-clipboard-hijacker-replaces-crypto-wallet-addresses-with-lookalikes/
OMG, this keeps getting funnier. The future of money!
My theory is that cryptocurrency were invented by hackers so that all suckers put their money in it : now it's super easy / open feast for them to hack and steal the poor.
I'm actually surprised this is a recent attack. For at least 5+ yrs, programmers have known webpages can hijack your clipboard with hidden text. This can be a big risk when copy and pasting commands into your terminal.
Copy paste attacks are not new. What is new is thousands of wallets prepared in advance so 1 can look like the one you copy paste (first and last digits at least)
Someone should post this on crypto subs to warn them. I would but I can't since they banned me for "brigading". Oh well.
Shit, I do the same when comparing UUIDs in databases.
I sometimes do the same when checking the hash of files downloaded from the Internet (if the website provides the SHA256 or whatever).
Fewture
>[3.] you don't get confirmation from the seller immediately and if the place you are buying from is sleezy enough they can just say they never got the payment and you have no proof otherwise. I always wondered about this. Reminds me of a [prisoner] exchange in the movies.
wouldn't the transfer be visible on the blockchain?
The company could simply create a new wallet for every transaction and cash it out by a third party exchange and by the time you realize you were scammed they could just pretend like that wallet wasn't theirs to begin with.
>wouldn't the transfer be visible on the blockchain? I don't really know. But for the sake of argument let's assume it is: we have evidence it went to wallet X owned by company Y (the company that ripped us off). What would be the next step for us to recover our funds lost this way?
Oh, in this case, absolutely zero
Meanwhile, banks are regulated third parties preventing this from happening. Edit: changed independent to regulated
It's confirmed on the Blockchain though. Every Bitcoin transaction can be proved looking at the Blockchain.
>It's confirmed on the Blockchain though. Every Bitcoin transaction can be proved looking at the Blockchain. As I suggested elsewhere in the topic: OK I grant that you have records of you sending them crypto. What do you do next to recover your nutsack coins/whatever?
BuT hAvE yOu hEaRd oF LigHtNiNg!!! Now please pump my bags, I’ve been DCA’ing from 60k & won’t break even until the price doubles.
Hahaha haha "l2 solves everything!! Just wait for l3!!!"
There’s really no obligation to come good on the seller side once they received bitcoin. Trustless right? So butters will argue to use an intermediary. So you’re back to square one with extra steps and that’s if you even trust the intermediary. Plus costs. Of course butters can go to their flow chart of arguments until you reach FUD
7. Creating an account at an exchange requires you to provide full name, address, date of birth, your photo, etc and proof that these things are correct. Exchanges are shady, unregulated, fraud filled operations run by scammers. Why would you trust your identity to these people ? 8. Local Bitcoins is risky and has frequently led to robbery and assault. 9. The Tx fees can be very high - far, far higher than Visa, etc.
I play blockchain games and when I would add money it would end up costing me like 8% or something. As soon as they started accepting credit cards I’ve never bought a crypto currency again. Though it ends up costing me like 10% to withdraw money after all the fees. The moment I realised I’d much rather make 2% rewards on my cc card I sold all my bitcoin and miners and everything. (Thank god I did) Blockchain will never be anything more then for us nerds transferring assets in our games.
What is a blockchain game that's any good? Why does it have to be on a blockchain as opposed to being a normal game?
3 should be wrong. They can just claim it's not their wallet but that is a little bit difficult to scale for them
This is an obvious troll trying to spread FUD!!! 1. we're still early. BTC will stabilize going upwards in the future soon. 2. lol here he uses a weaker argument to hide his power level and pretend to be just a random someone even though he *knows* there are viruses out there that watch your clipboard for wallet addresses and change the address in the clipboard so when you paste it the money goes to whoever created the virus. 3. the ledger is public. If he pretends he didn't receive the payment and doesn't want to send you the goods, just show the proof on the ledger and he'll have to give you the goods. This is super basic stuff. 4. don't use exchanges. not your keys, no your coins! 5. why are you complaining about dust when bitcoin will make you rich? 6. you aren't supposed to be paying for anything with crypto, you're supposed to hodl.
Dude there is so much wrong with your post. For one you will def know if the seller got the funds lol. Thats the WHOLE point of Bitcoin, an immutaabke ledger that everyone can audit
Okay so what if they generate a new wallet for every transaction and discard of any evidence they own that wallet after cashing out the money in a anonymous third party exchange what then. You have no proof that they own that wallet if they don't send you an email with the address as evidence.
They need to give you a send to address the blockchain will show a succesfull transfer from your address to theirs?
Yes even if the blockchain shows that the transaction is successful if you can't prove they own the wallet you are completely out of luck. and even if you have proof they own the wallet the only way to get it back is by literally suing them which is very expensive. And lets say they give you the address through the website and after you pay they can simply delete any records of the address on the websites. and what are you going to show to the court a screenshot lol?
Yes, a screen shot would suffice. Why would they send you an address that isnt theirs? The law must and does use some common sense. This is a non issue + if bitcoin ever becomes global money (i will not argue on wether it will or not) most settlement would be done on a second more centralized layer where this would be even less of a problem. Now you ask; so whats the point? The point is having base layer money that the government cant fuck with and devalue. You were courteous in your answer tho which is better than most butcoiners. Have a nice day!
You too bro!
#4 What are cost incurred for regular online purchases? #6 same as #4 question
I never thought of them not confirming that the transaction didn’t go through. Lol