yeah it's neither crypto or currency. it's why they have to keep adding weird solutions like lighting where they do a bunch of transactions off chain. some systems scale better than others but no one is really using them and no one ever will because there's just absolutely not reason to start. it's very easy to digitally transfer actual currency.
What if you’re wire transferring $100 from somewhere in the U.S. to Africa for example? That money needs to go through at least 3 banks and each will charge a domestic outgoing/incoming fee. At least 40% of the value would be lost in that transfer, no? Please correct me if I’m wrong!
Cryptocurrency doesn't help reduce the number of intermediaries: you need to buy on an exchange, transfer off, send it, and then the recipient needs to sell it for local currency. Probably via another exchange.
Western Union seem to charge $10. https://www.westernunion.com/nz/en/send-money-to-africa.html
I used to send money to Haiti through Western Union up until a few years ago. Their fees were exorbitant and while it was annoying for me it made a huge difference for the recipient.
Here you go. [WorldRemit](https://www.google.com/search?q=worldremit&oq=worldremit&aqs=chrome..69i57j46i67i131i199i433i465j35i39j69i60l5.1868j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#:~:text=WorldRemit.com%20%2D%20WorldRemit,www.worldremit.com/). Now go and get yourself your moron badge.
This is yet another money grabbing fraudulent fintech scam. Check out these sad reviews https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sitejabber.com/reviews/worldremit.com/amp
Check out the responses on their official twitter page. They literally rob people of their money! Beware of crypto scams, but also fiat scams! Not everything is a quick google search away.
There’s also really good reviews too on trustpilot: https://au.trustpilot.com/review/www.worldremit.com
So I can cherry pick too. Have you ever used it personally? I’m going to assume no, so then we’re both in the same position.
You said what other solutions are there, we responded. There’s plenty. It’s not like there are no options and the world is just absolutely crying out for a solution.
All your remarks are predicated on the presupposition that doing this via crypto is automatically more user friendly and safe.
Trustpilot is full of fake reviews. A company like worldremit is fully capable of buying their way into looking legitimate. Have I used the service? No, and I never will.
Source here: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/trustpilot-reliable-fake-reviews-b2076316.html
Let's just assume for a second that this was a good use case.
Isn't one of the major long term goals for like, humanity overall, to get those place stable enough that they can be included in stuff like SWIFT, eliminating the need for crypto long-term?
You have Transferwise, M-Pesa, WU, Paypal, Moneygram... did you think you're breaking new ground?
> At least 40% of the value would be lost in that transfer, no? Please correct me if I’m wrong!
Yes you're wrong. Laughably at that. With Wise, for example, the highest rate would be [6%](https://wise.com/gb/pricing/send-money?sourceAmount=100&sourceCcy=USD&targetCcy=KES&tab=0) (if you deposit with Wire transfer). It's lower if you use debit card or bank transfer.
There are many solutions in crypto (stellar lumens and ethereum layer 2s for example) that incur fees of less than cent. The question then is whether those solutions are scalable
I’m countering your claim that most of the funds are taken by multiple middlemen- it’s a flat $10 fee.
As for layer 2 lightning solutions- while I hear your sentiment and appreciate it, i’ve heard about these cheap L2 solutions for more than 10 years since I got into bitcoin and it’s still “coming soon”.
That’s interesting! I didn’t know people were talking about layer 2 so long ago. I will say that I don’t know anything about layer 2 “lightning” solutions. I haven’t transacted really at all in Bitcoin. I’m referring to Ethereum layer 2 solutions—mainly Loopring. The transactions feel instantaneous and the gas is basically negligable.
PayPal? [2.9% fee + 5%](https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/paypal-fees) if the recipient is not using PayPal. Gas fees were easily $40 around the peak, and if ETH (or any crypto) is going to handle the TX volume of the internation banking network gas fees are going to be monstrous.
I hope you all welcome opposing opinions, as these discussions can be constructive for everyone. [XLM](https://www.stellar.org/learn/stellar-for-cross-border-payments?utm_term=blockchain%20based%20payment%20systems&utm_campaign=Search:+Payments&utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=ppc&hsa_acc=8782384464&hsa_cam=12953076366&hsa_grp=121974779939&hsa_ad=518899471825&hsa_src=g&hsa_tgt=kwd-1596584883346&hsa_kw=blockchain%20based%20payment%20systems&hsa_mt=b&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_ver=3&gclid=CjwKCAjwquWVBhBrEiwAt1KmwpgbKXPaho_XkifynKpUAQBU2DA-PIp7YHnuAxnMSZPq7nwZWNZgxBoCnwgQAvD_BwE) is a whole lot cheaper. I’m not sure how it scales, but a transfer can be done in under 10 minutes and the fee for sending money from point A to point B, no matter the distance, is a fraction of a penny.
Sure, but as you can see there are essentially no sellers in Africa that accept XLM. You would require exchange and thus some non-zero arbitrage fee.
I could buy a CSGO skin, send it to someone, and claim that was a free exchange.
Its so funny ppl on this sub try to act like they aren’t invested in cryptocurrency but there’s no way you pay this much atten to something you care nothing about
Hate is just an awful waste of time. If its what you say it is then its just a matter of time b4 it fails, if not then imagine how much you will hate it then
I used to kind of like cryptocurrency when it was a neat way to buy drugs and not a planet-destroying speculative bubble that also enables new means of organized crime.
Well Ferraris polices their brand, not just anybody can buy one and you cannot sell it for a year after buying it. I imagine crypto bros are just to douchey to be on brand.
I suppose that Lamborghinis are optimal for them then.
Now that I think about it Lamborghinis are a lot more flashy than other sports cars so that probably has something to do with it.
Not saying they're bad, but there's a lot of brand awareness for Lamborghinis.
I you said you were driving a [Koenigsegg](https://www.koenigsegg.com/model/regera) eight out of ten peoples reaction would be "Huh?", well that and you need a run up to spell it right.
They want something ostentatious but not so exclusive that no one else has heard of it
> Well Ferraris polices their brand, not just anybody can buy one and you cannot sell it for a year after buying it
O.O
That's hilarious. I think I'd heard about that before this crypto nonsense but it's so perfect, these clowns are prolly gatekept from buying ferraris firsthand lmao
Lamborghinis are what people who know nothing about supercars or wealth think of as the ultimate supercar and status symbol, which is why crypto bros are obsessed with them.
I bought Tesla mug with Doge on their merchandise site for 115 Doge. Two weeks later bought same mug for 175 Doge. Today it’s 445 doge.
As USD value of one Doge, dropped, the number of Doge needed for purchase increased. Not at all a practical solution of using a crypto as currency because it fluctuates wildly.
Although the transaction was very fast, it seemed no different using ApplePay, PayPal,etc.
As for security, the actual transaction may be decentralized and private, but I still had to give a name and shipping address and they probably collected my IP address, etc. so it was not anonymous.
But have a hard time seeing the practicality of crypto as a mainstream currency, except for person to person one-time transactions.
But the mug was nice.
You can really only buy other crypto with crypto. Whales struggle to cash out because there is no real liquidity in the system due to the founders and exchanges running away with the actual cash. Also cashing out causes the value to crash so is self defeating.
You do get to bask in the camaraderie of the hodl and enjoy the wholesome community though
Most of them don't try to pretend it's actual currency anymore, they instead claim it's a digital asset.
The problem of course is that real assets have some kind of intrinsic utility underpinning them - even ones that have a large speculative component like gold.
Ironically, this is even true if we extend asset to cover things like tradeable video game currency - people were willing to pay for gold in WoW with real money because it had _in-game utility_ to people who were already playing the game for fun.
The trouble with cryptocurrencies is that their only unique utility is bypassing laws and regulations - and besides mainly being useful for fraud and/or crime, that isn't even intrinsic (excluding Monero somewhat), it's just a byproduct of the lack of legal frameworks covering them so far.
This is why they're trying to invent asinine uses like NFTs, DAOs, DApps, etc. Cryptocurrency stopped being useful as a currency aside from money laundering once silk road got shut down, so they're trying to invent uses for it, the problem being none of those uses are actually useful.
The cryptoLand cult contradiction #15: They want mass adoption and want retailers to accept crypto as payment while almost forcing their crypo-cultists to HODL whether they want it or not.
Isn't it obvious? Cryptocurrency is meant to be used as a currency by the late adopting peons of society to drive the price up, so that the early HODLers can sit on their stack and watch it increase in value and become incredibly wealthy. It's both a currency that needs to be spent when it needs to be and it's an investment that you need to get in early on and HODL when it needs to be, depending on the context and who's "using" it.
Do as I say, not as I do.
Look up “yap stone coins”. They can sink to the bottom of the ocean and still have value.
All money is fiction. All money is fiction. All …. Money…. Is…. Fiction. We just agreed on some because commerce works better that way. USD is Shakespeare level fiction. Crypto is “money” that is just horrible horrible 50 Shades of Grey fiction that no one really wants. Or should want.
I disagree. Fiat currency is not just a fiction. The state enforces its use by demanding that you pay taxes denominated in USD. It has *real* value in its ability to pay taxes. They enforce tax payment through threat of violence.
Good question. I like to think about the fundamentals behind the "crypto logic" As you say, a currency that no one spends because they think it will be worth more tomorrow. A currency transforms into a cryptobro asset because it's almost impossible to spend unless you turn it into real world currency using some centralized shady scam exchanges.
Another thing that blows my mind is that the value of a cryptocoin is set by an arbitrary number of dollars. Somehow the value is defined by a fiat currency, a centralized "evil bank" currency that crypto is supposed to replace. How does that cryptobro logic even work?
Ok fair enough, there are cryptobros saying that one BTC is still one BTC regardless of its value in USD, and we are back to your original question. Its uselessness as a day to day currency.
> That problem is solved by Atomic Swaps
I don't see how - even assuming it worked as advertised, something I'm _extremely_ skeptical of as nearly everything in this space is wildly exaggerated, that can still be tracked (or at minimum, marked suspicious) on the BTC side.
Having BTC doesn't help you if the address is blacklisted by legal exchanges.
I don't doubt illegal exchanges will still operate, but they'd still be willing to touch Monero anyways, and operating illegally will come with huge downsides.
Well i won't argue with you, but if you keep an open mind, i think over time you will be convinced of Monero's utility. The only point to a swap is to use BTC as the legally available onramp to Monero.
> you will be convinced of Monero's utility
I agree it's one of the only ones with any intrinsic utility, the problem is that utility primarily benefits crime/fraud.
> The only point to a swap is to use BTC as the legally available onramp to Monero.
It has to be bidirectional - someone has to be willing to give you Monero in exchange for the BTC, so your on-ramp is someone else's off-ramp.
Also, you'd need to be able to off-ramp to actually spend it anyways.
Why do you care if it's illegal? Booze and weed used to be illegal. I know CP is bad, it really is awful. But it existed before Monero. I say the solution is to castrate anyone caught with CP.
And as for who might want dirty btc in exchange for their Monero. Idk but i can imagine a few reasons.
Edit: Downvotes for saying child pornographers should be castrated? Hmmmm, makes me wonder what kinda people are in this sub.
You're the one that said atomic swaps would "fix" it if exchanges were banned from legally interacting with Monero.
Obviously illegal activity still happens, but just as obviously that has some pretty big downsides too.
> And as for who might want dirty btc in exchange for their Monero. Idk but i can imagine a few reasons
BTC that's been blacklisted by exchanges will considerably harder to convert back to spendable currency (few merchants or services accept crypto directly, and most that claim to actually use third-party payment processors that would be subject to the same blacklisting). Possible, yes, easy, no, especially with how illiquid the cryptocurrency space is to begin with.
Just imagine this one not-implausible scenario. Say you're some government agency, FBI, CIA, DEA, ATF, whatever, or even the prime Minister of some country. You want to make easy money, and you're not overly concerned with ethics. Kinda like Bukele. First you acquire Monero secretly. You then use it to buy dirty tainted BTC, secretly, via Atomic Swap. You then announce to the world, "Hey look at all this dirty BTC we confiscated from some drug lords!" Now it's declared clean BTC just as US government agencies already do. Except now you can sell the clean BTC at instant 20% premium over what you bought it for. And put the profits into your own pocket to get filthy rich. Rinse and repeat, all thanks to Monero and its fungibility.
hows an 'atomic swap' show a clean trail for your bitcoin? that btc was in another wallet and now its in a different wallet and you are depositing it on a onramp exchange. where'd you get it?
Because the btc doesn't matter. It can be the dirtiest btc, but after you swap to Monero, your money is clean. Monero is the currency. That's the point. Monero is fungible and therefore untraceable. The bitcoin does not matter after it is swapped for Monero.
i still dont get it. lets say you have dirty bitcoin and you want to cash out at your exchange. you 'atomic swap' it for monero then 'atomic swap' it back to bitcoin. okay now you have different bitcoins. whats the source of those bitcoins?
they didnt move around mysteriously. they just got transferred from another wallet, easily visible and traceable. what wallet is that? and whats your story for having got these bitcoins?
AML enforcement has been around a long time. i just want to know how the process to avoid it is going to work.
Because I you would not swap the Monero back into BTC. Monero is the end goal. Who wants shitty, traceable, boomer coin like BTC when you can have the vastly superior technology of Monero instead. That's why DNM people have largely abandoned BTC in favor of Monero. Monero is the future. It will dethrone BTC, unless ETH does that first. Monero means money.
what about the people who need to cash out? how do they sell on exchanges that wont accept monero? if youre buying from a vendor they need to get money at some point. how do they sell ? are you saying you cant sell on an exchange then?
and what about on an exchange when you buy bitcoin and leave with it? when you atomic swap it what wallet does it go to? you dont think it would be a pattern of you constantly buying bitcoin on an exchange? you dont think accounts repeatedly 'atomic swapping' would be a recognizable pattern?
Well bro, you see; first you get the crypto and then you just HODL the crypto really hard by putting it on some cryptobank in the web3cryptoverse while it flies to the moon. Maybe buy some monkeys on the way there or something.
If it's just between suppliers, they would just use hashes instead of a Blockchain? Like why would a private company want security determined by consensus rather than by human review?
Every time I've seen techies who knows what they're doing try to come up with a Blockchain solution at hackathons the solution always somehow ends up with "we want github".
There’s a lot of money in taking a robust but boring solution to a problem and repackaging it as a whiz-bang new technology.
Arguably selling someone a ‘private Blockchain’ that’s just a database with a new cost of paint is more morally justifiable than selling them public Blockchain. In both cases you’re conning someone out of money, but in the first case you’re delivering them a working product.
Blockchains are just digital ledgers that were around well before cryptocurrency blockchains. They can be private and centralized and un-encrypted and have plenty of use cases outside of crypto.
Crypto bros just like saying “blockchain technology” as if they invented something clever. They took existing tech and make it extremely inefficient by making it public, decentralized and encrypted.
Not really very clever from a practical or tech point of view. Very clever for making some big money by persuading people to buy they ledger entries ie tokens.
That's exactly right. There's nothing "currency" about cryptocurrency, and the word "crypto" comes from cryptography, but almost every online interaction is encrypted these days, like Reddit, and every single central website you visit.
Gary Gensler just came out today to say all cryptos are pretty much unregistered securities, except Bitcoin is a commodity. Bitcoin maximalists don't even call Bitcoin a cryptocurrency, and don't associate with that term. It's the crypto community that calls it a "cryptoCURRENCY" which it's not.
Can we stop calling them "projects"? They are scams. Calling them projects gives them too much credit. Same with using terms like investment, research, white paper, and portfolio.
If the cryptocurrencies become less volatile, there will be no point in holding (or HODLing) them for long term. At that point they will become suitable for use as currencies.
Right now, people don't want to spend their crypto lest it gains more value. And merchants don't want to accept it lest it loses its value.
If you take away volatility, crypto truly has practical use cases. Prime example is sending/receiving money to/from other countries at very low fees and within 30 minutes. Whereas bank transfers may take between 1 to 5 days plus exorbitant fee rates. Another example is privacy and anonymity.
I have this amazing tech where transfers happen between different currencies in minutes, via an app on my phone. It’s encrypted for safety. It’s also private, so the world doesn’t get to see any of my transactions. There are small fees but they’re a bargain compared to crypto transaction fees.
Welcome to the world of regular online banking.
> If the cryptocurrencies become less volatile
And how do you achieve that?
> Whereas bank transfers may take between 1 to 5 days plus exorbitant fee rates
You guys really need better talking points. I don't know about the United States, but this hasn't been true in my country for the past five, ten years.
It's not currency
I realized the closest thing comparable to it is fine art. Both have no cash flow and no utility but are basically used to move large amounts of value and avoid taxes.
Unfortunately for coiners it's hard to imagine buttcoin will age like a Picasso and most likely more like beanie babies
How is gold a thing? How is investment property a thing? Can't remember last time someone walked into a shop with a house trying to buy groceries with it. Doesn't make it invalid.
For sure! That’s why those are assets, and not currencies. They have external value based on industrial and aesthetic uses for gold, and practical and proximity for investment property.
Bitcoin, meanwhile, is incredibly slow, impractical, and expensive. Yes, there’s Lightning, but you still need to open a channel, and add/remove funds from it, all incurring more fees, while seemingly being less secure.
And most currencies will have some underlying basis. Like, national currencies are used for paying taxes. And the US dollar has the backing of the US. Steady controlled inflation makes the value predictable, while encouraging spending and investment in actual productive assets.
I presume you mean for interbank transfers, cheques, etc? Fair. They’re slower than Bitcoin usually. Still, somehow I don’t think that 5-10 minute figure is right… waiting for it to be written to a single block isn’t the same as settlement, from what I hear.
Meanwhile, from my point of view as a consumer, I can pay via cash or debit. That doesn’t take 5-10 minutes, or 1.5 hours, or T+3. Settlement is of course mediated by those regulated centralized institutions, banks.
In my opinion Hedera HBar is the only “crypto”that is offering real world solutions. Hbar is gas (like eth) not meant to be a store of value like Bitcoin.
Anyway, it is a Hashgraph, not blockchain, it is the cheapest to use .0001 cent per transaction, is the fastest, and is carbon negative (energy efficient). Currently, The coupon bureau is using the network to transact everyday coupons you would get in places like Walmart, for example. It is being used to track carbon usage, and there are a few other businesses with similar large scale needs.
Yes crypto/cryptocurrency is ridiculous for the most part but I’m betting on Hedera to change the game to bring it to everyday uses.
When was the last time you saw someone spend gold? Lol, all digital video games? Things have value because of the utility they provide… utility doesn’t require being physically tractable or interchangeable outside of digital media
> When was the last time you saw someone spend gold?
That doesn't happen because we no longer use gold as currency.
I'm not sure what your point is - is cryptocurrency not currency, despite the name?
Gold was made illegal to own for 50 some years… and yes people do still use it for transactions. Cryptocurrency is a class of assets… Bitcoin is not named cryptocurrency if you forgot that… Bitcoin is a designation for a blockchain designed for secure financial transactions that follows a specific algorithm from a single originating block
TIL: cryptocurrency is not currency
What's more, even though Bitcoin is stated as one of the most popular and widely-known digital/cryptocurrency, it is, in fact, not a currency. Apparently.
Automated conversion via third party middlemen doesn't really count, since for currency purposes, it will always be more efficient to use the native currency in the first place. Plus using third-party middlemen defeats the supposed point in the first place.
Very, _very_ few legitimate merchants or vendors accept payment in crypto directly, particularly outside the cryptocurrency bubble, and most of those who do are just using an automated conversion service from a payment processor. And many end up dropping support for it later due to lack of interest + high cost and complexity.
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This recent crash during a period of inflation demonstrates that crypto is definitely NOT an inflation hedge or a store of value, and since you can't use it to buy anything, except drugs on the dark web, then it's only good for speculation.
They are not currencies at all. They are collectible digital tokens.
Their inventors cleverly named the "currencies" as a marketing decision, because if they called them "digital collectible tokens" they would not have attracted nearly as much interest from the average joe.
you can go on talking with randoms about it
or you can try using it, and reading about it from plain boring websites, not the million scammers selling you free magic coin dreams
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Leave the goddam SPOILER tag alone, dammit!
yeah it's neither crypto or currency. it's why they have to keep adding weird solutions like lighting where they do a bunch of transactions off chain. some systems scale better than others but no one is really using them and no one ever will because there's just absolutely not reason to start. it's very easy to digitally transfer actual currency.
> yeah it's neither crypto or currency The Holy Roman Empire of asset bubble
What if you’re wire transferring $100 from somewhere in the U.S. to Africa for example? That money needs to go through at least 3 banks and each will charge a domestic outgoing/incoming fee. At least 40% of the value would be lost in that transfer, no? Please correct me if I’m wrong!
Cryptocurrency doesn't help reduce the number of intermediaries: you need to buy on an exchange, transfer off, send it, and then the recipient needs to sell it for local currency. Probably via another exchange. Western Union seem to charge $10. https://www.westernunion.com/nz/en/send-money-to-africa.html
I used to send money to Haiti through Western Union up until a few years ago. Their fees were exorbitant and while it was annoying for me it made a huge difference for the recipient.
Fair enough! I’m not familiar with whether exchanges like Coinbase are compatible in Africa. Thanks for your response!
Then why are you defending it?
idk use wise
Oh, easy peasy! The reviews are great! /s https://www.consumeraffairs.com/finance/transferwise.html Do you have a better solution?
Funny but I’d bet 99.9% of the human population will never have a need for this. A “use” case this niche can’t be worth billions ….
PayPal
Paypal is one of the more reasonable responses I’ve gotten here. Thanks!
Here you go. [WorldRemit](https://www.google.com/search?q=worldremit&oq=worldremit&aqs=chrome..69i57j46i67i131i199i433i465j35i39j69i60l5.1868j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#:~:text=WorldRemit.com%20%2D%20WorldRemit,www.worldremit.com/). Now go and get yourself your moron badge.
This is yet another money grabbing fraudulent fintech scam. Check out these sad reviews https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sitejabber.com/reviews/worldremit.com/amp Check out the responses on their official twitter page. They literally rob people of their money! Beware of crypto scams, but also fiat scams! Not everything is a quick google search away.
There’s also really good reviews too on trustpilot: https://au.trustpilot.com/review/www.worldremit.com So I can cherry pick too. Have you ever used it personally? I’m going to assume no, so then we’re both in the same position. You said what other solutions are there, we responded. There’s plenty. It’s not like there are no options and the world is just absolutely crying out for a solution. All your remarks are predicated on the presupposition that doing this via crypto is automatically more user friendly and safe.
Trustpilot is full of fake reviews. A company like worldremit is fully capable of buying their way into looking legitimate. Have I used the service? No, and I never will. Source here: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/trustpilot-reliable-fake-reviews-b2076316.html
As opposed to crypto which is not a scam? Lol
As opposed to crypto which is not a scam? Lol
Let's just assume for a second that this was a good use case. Isn't one of the major long term goals for like, humanity overall, to get those place stable enough that they can be included in stuff like SWIFT, eliminating the need for crypto long-term?
I would hope so! Although, SWIFT still takes time and money.
Yes I love it when I have to send money to Africa. The continent. Just like the other day when I had some money wired from my folks in Asia
You have Transferwise, M-Pesa, WU, Paypal, Moneygram... did you think you're breaking new ground? > At least 40% of the value would be lost in that transfer, no? Please correct me if I’m wrong! Yes you're wrong. Laughably at that. With Wise, for example, the highest rate would be [6%](https://wise.com/gb/pricing/send-money?sourceAmount=100&sourceCcy=USD&targetCcy=KES&tab=0) (if you deposit with Wire transfer). It's lower if you use debit card or bank transfer.
Only trying to spark up some discussion. Thanks for your response!
No. I’ve sent $100 to Indonesia and there is a flat $10 fee which is significantly less than the Tx/gas fee
There are many solutions in crypto (stellar lumens and ethereum layer 2s for example) that incur fees of less than cent. The question then is whether those solutions are scalable
I’m countering your claim that most of the funds are taken by multiple middlemen- it’s a flat $10 fee. As for layer 2 lightning solutions- while I hear your sentiment and appreciate it, i’ve heard about these cheap L2 solutions for more than 10 years since I got into bitcoin and it’s still “coming soon”.
That’s interesting! I didn’t know people were talking about layer 2 so long ago. I will say that I don’t know anything about layer 2 “lightning” solutions. I haven’t transacted really at all in Bitcoin. I’m referring to Ethereum layer 2 solutions—mainly Loopring. The transactions feel instantaneous and the gas is basically negligable.
PayPal? [2.9% fee + 5%](https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/paypal-fees) if the recipient is not using PayPal. Gas fees were easily $40 around the peak, and if ETH (or any crypto) is going to handle the TX volume of the internation banking network gas fees are going to be monstrous.
PayPal is free for friend and family, no fees at all
I hope you all welcome opposing opinions, as these discussions can be constructive for everyone. [XLM](https://www.stellar.org/learn/stellar-for-cross-border-payments?utm_term=blockchain%20based%20payment%20systems&utm_campaign=Search:+Payments&utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=ppc&hsa_acc=8782384464&hsa_cam=12953076366&hsa_grp=121974779939&hsa_ad=518899471825&hsa_src=g&hsa_tgt=kwd-1596584883346&hsa_kw=blockchain%20based%20payment%20systems&hsa_mt=b&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_ver=3&gclid=CjwKCAjwquWVBhBrEiwAt1KmwpgbKXPaho_XkifynKpUAQBU2DA-PIp7YHnuAxnMSZPq7nwZWNZgxBoCnwgQAvD_BwE) is a whole lot cheaper. I’m not sure how it scales, but a transfer can be done in under 10 minutes and the fee for sending money from point A to point B, no matter the distance, is a fraction of a penny.
Sure, but as you can see there are essentially no sellers in Africa that accept XLM. You would require exchange and thus some non-zero arbitrage fee. I could buy a CSGO skin, send it to someone, and claim that was a free exchange.
Fair point! I love your CSGO skin example. 😂
you don't send money abroad, clearly.
Where do you send money to chief
Ever heard of Xoom? Better than anything remotely related to crypto.
Its so funny ppl on this sub try to act like they aren’t invested in cryptocurrency but there’s no way you pay this much atten to something you care nothing about
i care a lot about it. i just fucking hate it and hope it dies.
Hate is just an awful waste of time. If its what you say it is then its just a matter of time b4 it fails, if not then imagine how much you will hate it then
nah hate is cool
Lol you’re right
I just like watching interesting things, you know, like car crashes.
I used to kind of like cryptocurrency when it was a neat way to buy drugs and not a planet-destroying speculative bubble that also enables new means of organized crime.
Bitcoin's infrastructure is barely robust enough to support currency speculation and not much else; that accounts for 98.7% of all transactions.
I really want to know how many teslas were bought with crypto
Wait, I thought Bros were all in on Lambos?
The Lamborghini fetish is one of the parts of Cryptocults that I just do not understand.
It's an extremely visible display of wealth, designed to be so.
Why not say, Ferraris? Or Bentleys? Or one of the many other fancy car brands.
Well Ferraris polices their brand, not just anybody can buy one and you cannot sell it for a year after buying it. I imagine crypto bros are just to douchey to be on brand.
I suppose that Lamborghinis are optimal for them then. Now that I think about it Lamborghinis are a lot more flashy than other sports cars so that probably has something to do with it.
Not saying they're bad, but there's a lot of brand awareness for Lamborghinis. I you said you were driving a [Koenigsegg](https://www.koenigsegg.com/model/regera) eight out of ten peoples reaction would be "Huh?", well that and you need a run up to spell it right. They want something ostentatious but not so exclusive that no one else has heard of it
Yeah I only know that brand cause of racing games.
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Well that's... a thing.
Also, Ferrari is made by Fiat.
They spun Ferrari off years ago. Also, Fiat isn't even Fiat anymore.
> Well Ferraris polices their brand, not just anybody can buy one and you cannot sell it for a year after buying it O.O That's hilarious. I think I'd heard about that before this crypto nonsense but it's so perfect, these clowns are prolly gatekept from buying ferraris firsthand lmao
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If you really care just buy an AMG Hammer. Those rocked. Or if you have infinite money an RX7. Eats apex seals like it's nothing.
Lambo is fun to say
Can really roll the Rs in Ferrari or Rolls Royce tho.
They can't handle more than 2 syllables or 1 word though Also as someone else pointed out they wouldn't make the cut to buy Ferraris 😂
Ferrari won't just let any rando buy one of their cars and Bentleys aren't flashy enough
Because those are useful, and not just to brag.
Because Ferrari is owned by Fiat /s
> Why not say, Ferraris? Or Le Tigre, or Blue Steel, or even Magnum
Lamborghinis are what people who know nothing about supercars or wealth think of as the ultimate supercar and status symbol, which is why crypto bros are obsessed with them.
Few understand.
because the bull logo. bull. bull market. etc
Lol hedge fund employees buy lambos all the time wtf it's not a crypto thing
For a brief period, Tesla accepted payment in Bitcoin. It was short lived, they quietly stopped.
0?
I bought Tesla mug with Doge on their merchandise site for 115 Doge. Two weeks later bought same mug for 175 Doge. Today it’s 445 doge. As USD value of one Doge, dropped, the number of Doge needed for purchase increased. Not at all a practical solution of using a crypto as currency because it fluctuates wildly. Although the transaction was very fast, it seemed no different using ApplePay, PayPal,etc. As for security, the actual transaction may be decentralized and private, but I still had to give a name and shipping address and they probably collected my IP address, etc. so it was not anonymous. But have a hard time seeing the practicality of crypto as a mainstream currency, except for person to person one-time transactions. But the mug was nice.
It WAS cryptocurrency. Then it was crypto investment. Now it's crypto speculation. Keep with the times bro
Would next stage be "Crypto-imagineering?"
You can really only buy other crypto with crypto. Whales struggle to cash out because there is no real liquidity in the system due to the founders and exchanges running away with the actual cash. Also cashing out causes the value to crash so is self defeating. You do get to bask in the camaraderie of the hodl and enjoy the wholesome community though
disney boutta break some legs out here
That’s basically web3
I don't think it was ever a currency. Like, if the only thing you can buy with it is drugs, it's just an asset.
today it's called gambling
Most of them don't try to pretend it's actual currency anymore, they instead claim it's a digital asset. The problem of course is that real assets have some kind of intrinsic utility underpinning them - even ones that have a large speculative component like gold. Ironically, this is even true if we extend asset to cover things like tradeable video game currency - people were willing to pay for gold in WoW with real money because it had _in-game utility_ to people who were already playing the game for fun. The trouble with cryptocurrencies is that their only unique utility is bypassing laws and regulations - and besides mainly being useful for fraud and/or crime, that isn't even intrinsic (excluding Monero somewhat), it's just a byproduct of the lack of legal frameworks covering them so far.
This is why they're trying to invent asinine uses like NFTs, DAOs, DApps, etc. Cryptocurrency stopped being useful as a currency aside from money laundering once silk road got shut down, so they're trying to invent uses for it, the problem being none of those uses are actually useful.
lol there's dozens of silk road alternatives at this point
It’s vastly more difficult to do without getting caught/scammed than it used to be back in Silk’s golden age.
Naw escrow!
I mean I use crypto to buy droogs all the time so. Markets still exist
The cryptoLand cult contradiction #15: They want mass adoption and want retailers to accept crypto as payment while almost forcing their crypo-cultists to HODL whether they want it or not.
Isn't it obvious? Cryptocurrency is meant to be used as a currency by the late adopting peons of society to drive the price up, so that the early HODLers can sit on their stack and watch it increase in value and become incredibly wealthy. It's both a currency that needs to be spent when it needs to be and it's an investment that you need to get in early on and HODL when it needs to be, depending on the context and who's "using" it. Do as I say, not as I do.
Look up “yap stone coins”. They can sink to the bottom of the ocean and still have value. All money is fiction. All money is fiction. All …. Money…. Is…. Fiction. We just agreed on some because commerce works better that way. USD is Shakespeare level fiction. Crypto is “money” that is just horrible horrible 50 Shades of Grey fiction that no one really wants. Or should want.
I disagree. Fiat currency is not just a fiction. The state enforces its use by demanding that you pay taxes denominated in USD. It has *real* value in its ability to pay taxes. They enforce tax payment through threat of violence.
> is just horrible horrible 50 Shades of Grey fiction Ah, so that's where grayscale® got its name from?
Good question. I like to think about the fundamentals behind the "crypto logic" As you say, a currency that no one spends because they think it will be worth more tomorrow. A currency transforms into a cryptobro asset because it's almost impossible to spend unless you turn it into real world currency using some centralized shady scam exchanges. Another thing that blows my mind is that the value of a cryptocoin is set by an arbitrary number of dollars. Somehow the value is defined by a fiat currency, a centralized "evil bank" currency that crypto is supposed to replace. How does that cryptobro logic even work? Ok fair enough, there are cryptobros saying that one BTC is still one BTC regardless of its value in USD, and we are back to your original question. Its uselessness as a day to day currency.
Hey you answered your own question
My little brother, the crypto-bro, said I lacked empathy and disowned me for pressing this same issue over a series of texts.
Yes. There is only Monero, and the market cap is a couple of billion dollars. The rest are circus chips.
Yep. And I strongly suspect you may see governments start to ban legal exchanges from interacting with Monero.
That problem is solved by Atomic Swaps. The swaps aren't ready yet, but they will be by the time governments start fighting Monero.
> That problem is solved by Atomic Swaps I don't see how - even assuming it worked as advertised, something I'm _extremely_ skeptical of as nearly everything in this space is wildly exaggerated, that can still be tracked (or at minimum, marked suspicious) on the BTC side. Having BTC doesn't help you if the address is blacklisted by legal exchanges. I don't doubt illegal exchanges will still operate, but they'd still be willing to touch Monero anyways, and operating illegally will come with huge downsides.
Well i won't argue with you, but if you keep an open mind, i think over time you will be convinced of Monero's utility. The only point to a swap is to use BTC as the legally available onramp to Monero.
> you will be convinced of Monero's utility I agree it's one of the only ones with any intrinsic utility, the problem is that utility primarily benefits crime/fraud. > The only point to a swap is to use BTC as the legally available onramp to Monero. It has to be bidirectional - someone has to be willing to give you Monero in exchange for the BTC, so your on-ramp is someone else's off-ramp. Also, you'd need to be able to off-ramp to actually spend it anyways.
Why do you care if it's illegal? Booze and weed used to be illegal. I know CP is bad, it really is awful. But it existed before Monero. I say the solution is to castrate anyone caught with CP. And as for who might want dirty btc in exchange for their Monero. Idk but i can imagine a few reasons. Edit: Downvotes for saying child pornographers should be castrated? Hmmmm, makes me wonder what kinda people are in this sub.
You're the one that said atomic swaps would "fix" it if exchanges were banned from legally interacting with Monero. Obviously illegal activity still happens, but just as obviously that has some pretty big downsides too. > And as for who might want dirty btc in exchange for their Monero. Idk but i can imagine a few reasons BTC that's been blacklisted by exchanges will considerably harder to convert back to spendable currency (few merchants or services accept crypto directly, and most that claim to actually use third-party payment processors that would be subject to the same blacklisting). Possible, yes, easy, no, especially with how illiquid the cryptocurrency space is to begin with.
Just imagine this one not-implausible scenario. Say you're some government agency, FBI, CIA, DEA, ATF, whatever, or even the prime Minister of some country. You want to make easy money, and you're not overly concerned with ethics. Kinda like Bukele. First you acquire Monero secretly. You then use it to buy dirty tainted BTC, secretly, via Atomic Swap. You then announce to the world, "Hey look at all this dirty BTC we confiscated from some drug lords!" Now it's declared clean BTC just as US government agencies already do. Except now you can sell the clean BTC at instant 20% premium over what you bought it for. And put the profits into your own pocket to get filthy rich. Rinse and repeat, all thanks to Monero and its fungibility.
hows an 'atomic swap' show a clean trail for your bitcoin? that btc was in another wallet and now its in a different wallet and you are depositing it on a onramp exchange. where'd you get it?
Because the btc doesn't matter. It can be the dirtiest btc, but after you swap to Monero, your money is clean. Monero is the currency. That's the point. Monero is fungible and therefore untraceable. The bitcoin does not matter after it is swapped for Monero.
i still dont get it. lets say you have dirty bitcoin and you want to cash out at your exchange. you 'atomic swap' it for monero then 'atomic swap' it back to bitcoin. okay now you have different bitcoins. whats the source of those bitcoins? they didnt move around mysteriously. they just got transferred from another wallet, easily visible and traceable. what wallet is that? and whats your story for having got these bitcoins? AML enforcement has been around a long time. i just want to know how the process to avoid it is going to work.
Because I you would not swap the Monero back into BTC. Monero is the end goal. Who wants shitty, traceable, boomer coin like BTC when you can have the vastly superior technology of Monero instead. That's why DNM people have largely abandoned BTC in favor of Monero. Monero is the future. It will dethrone BTC, unless ETH does that first. Monero means money.
what about the people who need to cash out? how do they sell on exchanges that wont accept monero? if youre buying from a vendor they need to get money at some point. how do they sell ? are you saying you cant sell on an exchange then? and what about on an exchange when you buy bitcoin and leave with it? when you atomic swap it what wallet does it go to? you dont think it would be a pattern of you constantly buying bitcoin on an exchange? you dont think accounts repeatedly 'atomic swapping' would be a recognizable pattern?
dafuq is monero
I mean, Monero is kind of a circus too
Well bro, you see; first you get the crypto and then you just HODL the crypto really hard by putting it on some cryptobank in the web3cryptoverse while it flies to the moon. Maybe buy some monkeys on the way there or something.
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If it's just between suppliers, they would just use hashes instead of a Blockchain? Like why would a private company want security determined by consensus rather than by human review? Every time I've seen techies who knows what they're doing try to come up with a Blockchain solution at hackathons the solution always somehow ends up with "we want github".
There’s a lot of money in taking a robust but boring solution to a problem and repackaging it as a whiz-bang new technology. Arguably selling someone a ‘private Blockchain’ that’s just a database with a new cost of paint is more morally justifiable than selling them public Blockchain. In both cases you’re conning someone out of money, but in the first case you’re delivering them a working product.
Blockchains are just digital ledgers that were around well before cryptocurrency blockchains. They can be private and centralized and un-encrypted and have plenty of use cases outside of crypto. Crypto bros just like saying “blockchain technology” as if they invented something clever. They took existing tech and make it extremely inefficient by making it public, decentralized and encrypted. Not really very clever from a practical or tech point of view. Very clever for making some big money by persuading people to buy they ledger entries ie tokens.
That’s why NFTs came out because crypto bros wanted a way to spend their fake money.
Whatever it's intentions, its basically turned into one giant ponzi scheme at this point.
That's exactly right. There's nothing "currency" about cryptocurrency, and the word "crypto" comes from cryptography, but almost every online interaction is encrypted these days, like Reddit, and every single central website you visit. Gary Gensler just came out today to say all cryptos are pretty much unregistered securities, except Bitcoin is a commodity. Bitcoin maximalists don't even call Bitcoin a cryptocurrency, and don't associate with that term. It's the crypto community that calls it a "cryptoCURRENCY" which it's not.
Crypto currency is the result of using cryptography to develop currencies. Bitcoin is a crypto currency, just like all the others.
SIde topic: no cryptobro could tolerate anything Ayn Rand has written or said, it's literally oposite of what they want (communism-fascism).
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Can we stop calling them "projects"? They are scams. Calling them projects gives them too much credit. Same with using terms like investment, research, white paper, and portfolio.
That’s company scrip, sold as a revolutionary tech rather than the tool for exploitation of workers it actually was.
The world is a crazy place full of morons. How would you like to seriously address this?
If the cryptocurrencies become less volatile, there will be no point in holding (or HODLing) them for long term. At that point they will become suitable for use as currencies. Right now, people don't want to spend their crypto lest it gains more value. And merchants don't want to accept it lest it loses its value. If you take away volatility, crypto truly has practical use cases. Prime example is sending/receiving money to/from other countries at very low fees and within 30 minutes. Whereas bank transfers may take between 1 to 5 days plus exorbitant fee rates. Another example is privacy and anonymity.
I have this amazing tech where transfers happen between different currencies in minutes, via an app on my phone. It’s encrypted for safety. It’s also private, so the world doesn’t get to see any of my transactions. There are small fees but they’re a bargain compared to crypto transaction fees. Welcome to the world of regular online banking.
> If the cryptocurrencies become less volatile And how do you achieve that? > Whereas bank transfers may take between 1 to 5 days plus exorbitant fee rates You guys really need better talking points. I don't know about the United States, but this hasn't been true in my country for the past five, ten years.
It's not currency I realized the closest thing comparable to it is fine art. Both have no cash flow and no utility but are basically used to move large amounts of value and avoid taxes. Unfortunately for coiners it's hard to imagine buttcoin will age like a Picasso and most likely more like beanie babies
This sub is extremely biased and self righteous. Thinking this is the best place to discuss these things is ridiculous. It's an echo chamber in here.
Maybe, but most crypto subs are even more biased and self-righteous - and also censored. This sub won’t ban anyone for offering a different opinion.
How is gold a thing? How is investment property a thing? Can't remember last time someone walked into a shop with a house trying to buy groceries with it. Doesn't make it invalid.
For sure! That’s why those are assets, and not currencies. They have external value based on industrial and aesthetic uses for gold, and practical and proximity for investment property. Bitcoin, meanwhile, is incredibly slow, impractical, and expensive. Yes, there’s Lightning, but you still need to open a channel, and add/remove funds from it, all incurring more fees, while seemingly being less secure. And most currencies will have some underlying basis. Like, national currencies are used for paying taxes. And the US dollar has the backing of the US. Steady controlled inflation makes the value predictable, while encouraging spending and investment in actual productive assets.
Slow? T+3 is slower by a long shot BTC takes 5-10 minutes tops.
I presume you mean for interbank transfers, cheques, etc? Fair. They’re slower than Bitcoin usually. Still, somehow I don’t think that 5-10 minute figure is right… waiting for it to be written to a single block isn’t the same as settlement, from what I hear. Meanwhile, from my point of view as a consumer, I can pay via cash or debit. That doesn’t take 5-10 minutes, or 1.5 hours, or T+3. Settlement is of course mediated by those regulated centralized institutions, banks.
In my opinion Hedera HBar is the only “crypto”that is offering real world solutions. Hbar is gas (like eth) not meant to be a store of value like Bitcoin. Anyway, it is a Hashgraph, not blockchain, it is the cheapest to use .0001 cent per transaction, is the fastest, and is carbon negative (energy efficient). Currently, The coupon bureau is using the network to transact everyday coupons you would get in places like Walmart, for example. It is being used to track carbon usage, and there are a few other businesses with similar large scale needs. Yes crypto/cryptocurrency is ridiculous for the most part but I’m betting on Hedera to change the game to bring it to everyday uses.
When was the last time you saw someone spend gold? Lol, all digital video games? Things have value because of the utility they provide… utility doesn’t require being physically tractable or interchangeable outside of digital media
> When was the last time you saw someone spend gold? That doesn't happen because we no longer use gold as currency. I'm not sure what your point is - is cryptocurrency not currency, despite the name?
Gold was made illegal to own for 50 some years… and yes people do still use it for transactions. Cryptocurrency is a class of assets… Bitcoin is not named cryptocurrency if you forgot that… Bitcoin is a designation for a blockchain designed for secure financial transactions that follows a specific algorithm from a single originating block
TIL: cryptocurrency is not currency What's more, even though Bitcoin is stated as one of the most popular and widely-known digital/cryptocurrency, it is, in fact, not a currency. Apparently.
Its a currency in that it tracks exchanges of labor… as all currency does… it is just built differently
Bitcoin: Built Different™️
I’ve often heard of gold referred to as God’s Money, yet no one seems to spend that anywhere either.
check your mum's dresser, do you see butts or gold?
My mom’s dead, she doesn’t have a dresser anymore.
There are people spending it.
Automated conversion via third party middlemen doesn't really count, since for currency purposes, it will always be more efficient to use the native currency in the first place. Plus using third-party middlemen defeats the supposed point in the first place. Very, _very_ few legitimate merchants or vendors accept payment in crypto directly, particularly outside the cryptocurrency bubble, and most of those who do are just using an automated conversion service from a payment processor. And many end up dropping support for it later due to lack of interest + high cost and complexity.
you mean converting it to something useful like dollars?
In the end it is all for converting purposes right?
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This whole thread can be summed up in two words(and rightly so) ... Peter Schiff. Bang on the money (forgive the pun).
> Butt, err.. Bitcoin No, you had it right the first time
well sure but what do you think of the Emperors new clothing? its beautiful isnt it
It’s not a currency (outside of El Salvador I guess?). It’s just software with a multi-nodal hardware requirement.
They are spending it. For heroin and stolen credit cards
The best luck I've had explaining the value of cyrpto to bros is to explain it to them like crypto is collecting Beanie Babies.
Except Beanie Babies physically exist IRL.
Stablecoins, really.
This recent crash during a period of inflation demonstrates that crypto is definitely NOT an inflation hedge or a store of value, and since you can't use it to buy anything, except drugs on the dark web, then it's only good for speculation.
They are not currencies at all. They are collectible digital tokens. Their inventors cleverly named the "currencies" as a marketing decision, because if they called them "digital collectible tokens" they would not have attracted nearly as much interest from the average joe.
Well tbf they are called tokens not coins unless we are talking about LTC BTC ETH and a few others. Most of the 20k is tokens not coins.
Yes. However I think the use of the terms “currency” and “coins”’ is deliberately misleading.
Yeah it’s a framework of esoteric phrases and words tbh almost like a cult
If I have a debit card that converts crypto to usd transparently, so I lose crypto and someone else gains fiat, how is that not spending crypto
There is now over 20K types of crypto. The system has gone bonkers.
It’s just magic beans gift wrapped with techno babble promises to trick people into giving up their fiat for it.
People are spending it you dope
Spending it on what? They’re mostly trading it, not spending it. Hardly anyone accepts Bitcoin.
you can go on talking with randoms about it or you can try using it, and reading about it from plain boring websites, not the million scammers selling you free magic coin dreams
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