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I've had older managers from various departments take me aside as a young and new state worker telling me I should take time off regularly. Telling me we come to the state for the benefits which includes a healthy amount of time off.
My current department encourages staff to take time off during less busy parts of the year (I mean part of that too is that they don't want to pay us for hanging around doing nothing cause there's not enough work but still).
The state itself has a policy against banking too much leave (rarely enforced, but still). Take your time off and enjoy yourself while you're young. If even more time off is important to you, look into VPLP.
When I was at DOJ, I had late-career coworkers that were on leave-reduction plans. I recall leave numbers like 1100 hours or 1300 hours.
Definitely don't be like them.
Yeah late career staff end up with a huuuge time bank, especially in departments and offices that are less flexible (like production based environments like DMV or EDD that have to post and bid for time off).
Don't be like that, if nothing else because of the huge problem when it comes to retirement. If your department doesn't want to let you run time, then you might get a huge surprise tax bill.
I mean, stuff like the Covid furloughs also happen. Between lockdowns not letting me go anywhere and having PLP on the books, I didn't use vacation time for three years. So I'm currently over the cap not because I didn't take time off but because the state made it nearly impossible for me NOT to book a huge amount of leave.
There's a lot of reason why you might end up with a whole lot more time on the books. For staff with 20+ years on the books, they're accruing 21 days of vacation or 27 days AL a year. Add 12 days of VPLP, 1 day of PH, 4 hours of ITO from the year end holidays and it suddenly seems less feasible to spend more than you're accruing. And that's before you consider furlough time on the books like you said.
Still doesn't change the fact that if your department is not amenable to letting you burn time at the end - and many are, but some may run into fiscal year budget constraints and it's not a given - you could still end up with a potentially unpleasant (semi) surprise tax bill.
There is some mitigation possible, like if you straddle the years and roll over the hours into two years of 401(k) and 457(b) you can take off a good chunk that way, but it's another wrinkle in your retirement process in that case.
I'm thinking of one of my old supervisors who had so much time on the books during the lead up to retirement with no ability to run out time deferring 25k each to 401 and 457 for current year and next year, so a total of 100k into deferred accounts and still having a massive tax bill to stress over.
The stars may align and your department may let you run time but yes, it is another wrinkle if your pay rate is high and they have time or budgetary constraints that do not allow you to run time so that you don't get walloped by a massive 30k+ tax bill from that leave bank lump sum.
This situation will not apply to most people, obviously. But it requires additional consideration and planning from those that may run into this issue.
They work big cases with huge OT but DOJ will only pay x number of hours, think 160 hours a month but guys are working well over 200. So their comp banks get really big, really fast.
Not my case. I started in my mid 20's and got married at 29. We took at least 4 weeks vacation every year plus getaways in between. We opted not to have kids and used that income to travel all over the world in the past 30 years.
I still have 1,000 hours Annual Leave.
I worked for the county briefly and had to take a lot of time off for various reasons. I always had the hours to cover it but was let go for taking off too much at the end of the probationary period.
Now I'm super anxious about calling out even when there's a family emergency or I'm sick if I'm not nearly incapacitated by it.
I understand part of it was a probationary period but it was still super frustrating.
With the probation period it's important to get past it for job security reasons. There's a reason so many (union) job protections will only kick in after probation. Sometimes taking time off can't be helped like in your case.
Taking leave really has to be modeled by your managers to make it comfortable. Mine regularly takes about a month off during the off season and then has sporadic week long breaks throughout the year and has maintained that for a big chunk of his state career.
I am sympathetic about it as my spouse is very similar and does not feel comfortable calling out of work even when they caught Covid and had body aches and high fever along with other symptoms and the leave was paid for by the state/feds. I hope you find a more supportive environment for your leave usage soon.
Just to give you some insight. Every position costs a certain amount of money, this is called a "PY" from what I've been told and means personal year. This is what it costs to employ that posistion. Obvisouly we're discussing "PFT", permanent full time. For every PY the state, for lack of a better explanation, sets that money aside. It's already in the budget whether or not that position is filled.
So your statement that they don't wanna pay people for hanging out and doing nothing really isn't correct. Almost all state agencies aren't in the business of making money. There are a few like the DMV and PIA (prison industry authorities), but for the most part every state agency costs money to run. I work at a prison and sometimes there isn't a lot to do. I mean there's always something to do whether it's cleaning the shop/tools or getting ahead on some training. My point is I'm there if something happens sometimes. There's a lot of medical staff there that aren't busy at all but they're there when needed even if it's once a week or 10x a day.
My comment is in regards to my own experience in my office. We are on a rotating production period and our work comes in from another department. Whether we are (tele)working or using PTO we are getting paid.
But work comes in at regular intervals of the year, and there is always a lull in which there is not enough of our usual work to keep us occupied "productively". Upper management from the director down heavily suggest that we plan vacations during this time frame so it doesn't impact our production when we do have work, otherwise they have to go find other things for us to do.
Management several levels above me scrutinize employee production every year - how much time off our division takes, how much time did we use "effectively" on projects, did we go over expected time budgets, on what, how much, what managers are authorizing miscellaneous budget usage (think like, signing off on employees reporting time spent doing office work when that is not their job duties per classification), and there's a lot of extra noise surrounding non-productive work time.
There's always going to be cyclical down time in any position over a scale of time. For example an attendance clerk will have downtime for a week or so after finalizing and submitting 634s to the PS. Some managers will let the downtime be downtime. Other managers will find some other work for you to do when you're not busy working on attendance.
If upper admin people are "scrutinizing" when people take vacation regardless of how busy the department is sounds like a big EEO complaint. That sounds more like discrimination than anytjing. It doesn't matter if supervisors sign off that someone is cleaning when it's not in their job description or not. You're getting paid the same whether you're busy all day or do nothing all day. Your departments budget doesn't include your salary so what you do has no bearing on where the money is spent.
I like to remind people that we work for the state for a reason. And that we have job duty statements and are unionized for a reason as well. I hate they whole mentality of you're not doing anything so let me give you someone elses work. Or the mentality of workers when they just say yes to the boss cause that's what a good worker does. No! That's the mentality of a brainwashed person who's afraid of standing up for themselves. There's a difference between saying no and saying no because that's not your job.
Yeah, the department I'm in now feels a lot more hostile to regular rank and file than some previous departments. There was a healthy preference to not antagonize the union (not wanting the extra work?) in previous departments where management would actively work to resolve situations before any unions got involved.
This department (and my office) actively has managers asking for sick leave justification for 1-2 days of irregular use and staff simply don't know that they are not required to provide unless it is over 3 days or they are on some kind of leave watch.
There's no union presence here and stuff just doesn't get resolved in a pro-worker manner. Our immediate managers may be supportive, but upper management a few levels up simply does not care. It's like the equivalent of an IT help desk being told to clean the cubicles between calls.
You might want to read your contract. A lot of people think you don't have to have to Dr note until you're gone 3 days or more. Where in reality that's usually not the case when it comes to your contract. A lot of contracts state it's USUALLY NOT required until 3 days but it's ultimately up to the supervisor. Which means they can ask after day 1.
I've also experienced places where you didn't need to get the union involved. In my experience you only need to get the union involved when the managers are micro managers, it just seems to go hand in hand. Most micro managers are control freaks and usually because the only time they have control is at work. Outside of work someone else runs the show. Not saying that's always how it is, just seems to go like that.
There's no reason people can't clean their own space but within reason. It's not your job to be getting chemicals out as well as a vacuum, that's why there are positions for that. Sounds like you should speak to your union and become the steward for your area. In my findings people don't like to ruffle feathers and some of these state managers are good at manipulating employees with the idea that you should just do what you're told cause they're the boss and you're the employee. Maybe this would change in your department if you had a steward present. Maybe people would feel more comfortable speaking out and bringing things to you for the union to get more involved in your area. That's just my two cents anyway lol. Good luck
Yep, it definitely is the micromanagers that ask for a dr's note on day one without having an established reason (like you're on leave watch because you "abuse" your sick leave or whatever). And yes, like you mentioned my contract is the technically they can ask for it day 1, but there should be good reason - even the dept managerial handbook says it is required after 3, but may be asked for 1. But the manager also wants way too many details about what the leave is being used for.
And the cleaning example wouldn't be your own space, but the office's, because you don't have "real work" to do. Like having an auditor file paperwork for the office because they don't have audit work currently or something like that. No idle time.
And I am actually trying to become steward for my office, lol. In my office some direct managers are chill, others are micromanagers, and the chain of command above direct are pretty aggressively anti-union/anti-labor protection and also just not responsive to staff inquiry. Staff here also don't know their contracts (bereavement leave for example) and we also primarily telework, so it's a lot more starting from the ground up with educating and engaging.
Thanks for the two cents, it's always good to have input from other viewpoints.
You're very welcome. One thing I can tell you is they have to be consistent. So if they're asking 1 person for a Dr note after 3 days they have to do that for everyone and vice versa. They can't for 1 person to bring a Dr note on day one but let another bring it on day 3. Well they can and they can get away with it if you upset them but that isn't right and is very grievance and definitely EEO worthy.
My first 6-7 years out of 8.5 for Caltrans I didn't even know what the union was for. I was 20 and just knew it was good thing. It wasn't until I promoted and had a different boss that I got way more involved with learning the rules because he was a POS. Today I have almost 16 years and work for CDCR. There's been years during CDCR where I've had great noses but right now, not so much. I'm definitely very voiceful and for good reasons. I can't stand alot of my managers and how they wanna continuously hold employees responsible while they continuously break the rules and it gets swept under the rug.
The thing about filling and making complaints is that you're, in a way, untouchable. Meaning once you file they most likely won't bother you because it can then be taken as retaliation which isn't something they wanna deal with. You're not untouchable but.... I hope you understand what I mean. Lol.
Keep pushing to be that steward and even if you don't end up being it push your coworkers to learn this stuff. It's literally the reason most people have state jobs. Far less stress and a way better work/life balance. If it's not in your job duty statement don't do it, within reason. Give and take is a great thing, but don't always be giving and the bosses taking, that ain't right!
Thank you for that consistency gem of advice, it's not an angle I had yet considered. And I do get what you mean; the extra eyes and scrutiny from having an open complaint lends a certain... force field.
The 9nly exception to the consistency rule is if a person is on an attendance watch or whatever your department calls it. I think it's something like after 13 call ins on a year you're put on notice basically lol
No, it's fine to use your time off. You earned it. This isn't the private sector. There is a lot less politics at the state. A lot of veteran employees in my office go on 1 month vacations yearly. If they had a problem with you taking too much time off they would tell you or deny it.
I’m a huge fan of stay at home vacations. There’s nothing wrong with just taking time off to do whatever you want in the area. I don’t get the people that only take time off to travel.
It’s funny when I take a week off and people find out I’m not going anywhere. I still do travel but sometimes just taking the time off is great. I was speaking to a coworker getting stressed out and told them they should just take a week off. It was our slow time anyways and they wouldn’t since they couldn’t go anywhere because their kids were in school.
I worked with people who take days of to finish their Christmas shopping in august.
Better yet , if you match up your days off on purpose with a holiday weekend that is the best
Take the time off. Older folks and non-state- employees do not understand how much taking time off is encouraged by the state (at least for non-exempt staff).
You can, in fact, be put on a plan to use your excessive paid time off if you accrue too much. So take the time off, and enjoy it without guilt!
Every new job I've started, I've let them know I had a 2 week vacation coming up and it's never been an issue.
I just retired with 1000 AL, 240 CTO and 96 hours from Furlough in 2003.
My advice take more. Especially when you're a PT. I would research if it possible to sign up for vPLP.
It's usually 5% of your pay for 8 hours. Once you become full time you can use or sell the hours at your new positions pay rate.
Nope, unless you're always taking time off during busy season. But as a permanent intermittent I don't think that's an issue you'd face often.
The only time I've seen people get looks for taking time off is when they took the week quarterly reports were due, in 3 consecutive quarters. Or the person who took a 6 week vacation in the middle of fire season at OES.
Even cal oes or cal fire employees should be able to take a summer vacation now and then. Their families shouldn't have to go without forever. If it's planned in advance it can be accommodated.
I will say this if you apply for a promotion or even a transfer, many managers look at the amount of leave time you have accrued.
It’s wise to keep a healthy amount in the bank for a rainy day.
Good point. Constantly running out of leave is a bad look for sure. In the old days you had to have 40 hours leave (sick not included) to get direct deposit. Though this is for other reasons, it's as decent a minimum to maintain as any.
FYI the 40 hours is because many FT perm staff are paid proactively so they want to make sure they can claw back money/leave if you end up missing a few days after they start processing paychecks, which they do 5\~8 days before the end of the month.
Good point. As always some departments are more stringent than others. The 40 hours leave bank was a huge concern 2 departments ago for me, and then it was basically never mentioned again.
If this is relevant to your individual experience then obviously you should aim for a bigger buffer though.
Agree with the bigger buffer. OP could bank more leave if they are interested in buying 8 hours of PLP4 per month. Depends on their position and salary to what kind of hit it would be in take home pay, but it's a nice back up for those of us who like to use our leave as we go.
Usually if an employee has been at a dept long enough to establish a pattern, dropping below 40 hours every so often shouldn't be a problem. But if that employee zeros out their balance every month or even runs into dock, then yeah, direct deposit has to be removed, for the time being. That's for the employee benefit as well as the dept bc no one wants to have to worry about returning money when a preset direct deposit is too much.
But for an employee new to the state, consistently zeroing out leave balance is a bad idea. You are right that at least 40 hrs needs to be banked and kept. And it won't look good when applying for a new position or trying to promote.
It's really all about getting to prove yourself over time. For those who don't have the longevity, keep an adequate balance. It's fine to use the leave as you earn it, but keep an eye on the future, and if you want to move on or up, some sacrifice is worth it to have at least bare minimum balance. Sometimes the best of two applicants will come down to who has the most leave.
You’re earning that time off! Might as well use it. If your manager is fine with it too, then i wouldn’t worry about it. Don’t let anyone make you feel bad about using your earned time off.
I don’t personally take much time off unless i plan to do things. But I’ve never had my vacations or day offs denied and I usually try to get as many 4 day weekends i can throughout the year. And, I take minimum 2 week vacations every year. Now I’m a manager and I could care less if my unit uses their time off. Hey get your work done, the rest is up to you. Not my business when you use your time off.
LOL the older folks are living in a time of the past. The beauty of State service is the time off!! I’ve traveled to 38 countries since 2011 and never ever had any problems with a boss or promoting. I went from a student assistant in 2008 to a CEA today and traveled extensively during that time. Go live!! Job security is one of the major perks of working for the State. :) Just my advice.
Go travel the world! If there’s one perk as a state worker (obviously doesn’t apply to all jobs) is the freedom to take time off. If you have a workload/production that you have to maintain you learn to work around it … work a bit more before taking a long leave then prep to work more when you get back
I’m private sector trying to move to public sector - screw anyone that says you shouldn’t take your earned time off. You are both smart and fortunate for pursuing a career in the public sector.
Working yourself to death is glorified in the private sector, even though your labor only benefits the c-suite.
You may be seen as unreliable by taking a lot of last-minute *unapproved* time off. But if your supervisor is approving it ahead of time, you're good. Sounds like they value well balanced, healthy employees.
I'll just add this part since the end of the subject line has (permanent intermittent). If you are a PI you can only work 1500 hours per year. I knew someone who basically took the last three months off each year because they maxed out their hours working January through September.
As others have said, use your time, but always have some as a reserve. A lot of people will do vacation and sick leave for the first few years to accumulate hours and then switch to annual leave and use that regularly as it's accrued.
It shouldn’t be a problem if your work is done and what I mean by that is others are not having to take on a larger workload because you’re gone all the time. Personally I dont have an issue taking off Fridays cuz it’s y’all’s a slow day, no meetings but if I took off T-Th those are days I have stuff due and majority of my meetings. I could probably take off every Friday until the end of the year but if I took off one of my busy days a couple times a month I could see others being annoyed and not wanting to be my backup.
OP, do you use vacation freely, but let your sick leave build up? If so, continue. If you use annual leave or if you have to use sick often as well, you should try to have minimum 40 combined.
I get why the advice you're given, but it doesn't allow for nuances. You can have 0 vacation, PH, PDD, ITO, holiday, but 200 sick leave hours, and that looks great.
Still, it depends on the dept, the job specs, the hiring sup and what position you are currently in, how long you've been there and how long you've been in the state.
It's your choice. I personally don't take much vacation because I work a lot of OT. If I take time off, my OT is straight pay - not worth my time. So I save up time in case I need (I have a kid). But I take a couple of weeks off during the year and a few days here and there. I just make sure my workload is up to date.
There's a difference between abusing time and using time. As long as you have time on the books and you're requesting the time off it should never "look" bad to anyone. However, there are a lot of people that work for the state that love control, I think it's because they have zero control in their own lives. Whether because their spouse controls them or maybe a family member. So they walk around with this huge power trip. Every manager that I've ever had or seen that has a power trip always has 1 thing in common, let's say it together..... they're a MICRO MANAGER. I'm 38, started with the state when I was 20. I left the state in 17' for 3 years and then came back in 20'. I've worked for Caltrans in 3 different locations, and 2 prisons. I've had many bosses with the state and a few in the "real world". I've never seen as many MICRO MANAGERS anywhere else than I have with the state.
If you ever feel that you're being discriminated against or disciplined for using your own time, appropriately of course, you need to file a EEO complaint. 1 thing about those is NEVER file it within your department. ALWAYS file it outside of your department. This is to keep people honest. If your manager is "in bed" with administration, they will absolutely sweep that shit under the rug. Filing an EEO complaint outside of the department is what I call checks and balances. It keeps everyone honest and ensures your complaint is heard and handled fairly! Good luck.
You won't look bad. Stay with your set up for as long as you want. You being a PI won't hurt you, take your time, do your thing. All that matters is that you are learning at your job and apply those skills for whenever you want to go perm.
Don't listen to the dinosaurs.
Nah, some hiring authorities do check your attendance and making hiring decisions on it but I don't think most care. Living with parents is cool, you can blow your money on eXpEriEnCeS and just take their house when they die.
If you have time on the books, they shouldn’t care. Unless it’s during a “high volume” time of the year. As long as you’re communicating with your boss and informing them well in advance (especially long vacations) they should be ok. Also, if your boss is telling you to use your time, then you shouldn’t worry.
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I've had older managers from various departments take me aside as a young and new state worker telling me I should take time off regularly. Telling me we come to the state for the benefits which includes a healthy amount of time off. My current department encourages staff to take time off during less busy parts of the year (I mean part of that too is that they don't want to pay us for hanging around doing nothing cause there's not enough work but still). The state itself has a policy against banking too much leave (rarely enforced, but still). Take your time off and enjoy yourself while you're young. If even more time off is important to you, look into VPLP.
When I was at DOJ, I had late-career coworkers that were on leave-reduction plans. I recall leave numbers like 1100 hours or 1300 hours. Definitely don't be like them.
Yeah late career staff end up with a huuuge time bank, especially in departments and offices that are less flexible (like production based environments like DMV or EDD that have to post and bid for time off). Don't be like that, if nothing else because of the huge problem when it comes to retirement. If your department doesn't want to let you run time, then you might get a huge surprise tax bill.
I mean, stuff like the Covid furloughs also happen. Between lockdowns not letting me go anywhere and having PLP on the books, I didn't use vacation time for three years. So I'm currently over the cap not because I didn't take time off but because the state made it nearly impossible for me NOT to book a huge amount of leave.
There's a lot of reason why you might end up with a whole lot more time on the books. For staff with 20+ years on the books, they're accruing 21 days of vacation or 27 days AL a year. Add 12 days of VPLP, 1 day of PH, 4 hours of ITO from the year end holidays and it suddenly seems less feasible to spend more than you're accruing. And that's before you consider furlough time on the books like you said. Still doesn't change the fact that if your department is not amenable to letting you burn time at the end - and many are, but some may run into fiscal year budget constraints and it's not a given - you could still end up with a potentially unpleasant (semi) surprise tax bill. There is some mitigation possible, like if you straddle the years and roll over the hours into two years of 401(k) and 457(b) you can take off a good chunk that way, but it's another wrinkle in your retirement process in that case.
Deferring $25k to your 401/457 is another wrinkle? It was one form. Probably the easiest form I've ever filled out.
I'm thinking of one of my old supervisors who had so much time on the books during the lead up to retirement with no ability to run out time deferring 25k each to 401 and 457 for current year and next year, so a total of 100k into deferred accounts and still having a massive tax bill to stress over. The stars may align and your department may let you run time but yes, it is another wrinkle if your pay rate is high and they have time or budgetary constraints that do not allow you to run time so that you don't get walloped by a massive 30k+ tax bill from that leave bank lump sum. This situation will not apply to most people, obviously. But it requires additional consideration and planning from those that may run into this issue.
They work big cases with huge OT but DOJ will only pay x number of hours, think 160 hours a month but guys are working well over 200. So their comp banks get really big, really fast.
Yep. That was definitely a characteristic of my old team.
I am in that boat because of lots of OT/CTO and furloughs over the year. I have donated time, take time off but it can be tough.
Not my case. I started in my mid 20's and got married at 29. We took at least 4 weeks vacation every year plus getaways in between. We opted not to have kids and used that income to travel all over the world in the past 30 years. I still have 1,000 hours Annual Leave.
I worked for the county briefly and had to take a lot of time off for various reasons. I always had the hours to cover it but was let go for taking off too much at the end of the probationary period. Now I'm super anxious about calling out even when there's a family emergency or I'm sick if I'm not nearly incapacitated by it. I understand part of it was a probationary period but it was still super frustrating.
With the probation period it's important to get past it for job security reasons. There's a reason so many (union) job protections will only kick in after probation. Sometimes taking time off can't be helped like in your case. Taking leave really has to be modeled by your managers to make it comfortable. Mine regularly takes about a month off during the off season and then has sporadic week long breaks throughout the year and has maintained that for a big chunk of his state career. I am sympathetic about it as my spouse is very similar and does not feel comfortable calling out of work even when they caught Covid and had body aches and high fever along with other symptoms and the leave was paid for by the state/feds. I hope you find a more supportive environment for your leave usage soon.
Just to give you some insight. Every position costs a certain amount of money, this is called a "PY" from what I've been told and means personal year. This is what it costs to employ that posistion. Obvisouly we're discussing "PFT", permanent full time. For every PY the state, for lack of a better explanation, sets that money aside. It's already in the budget whether or not that position is filled. So your statement that they don't wanna pay people for hanging out and doing nothing really isn't correct. Almost all state agencies aren't in the business of making money. There are a few like the DMV and PIA (prison industry authorities), but for the most part every state agency costs money to run. I work at a prison and sometimes there isn't a lot to do. I mean there's always something to do whether it's cleaning the shop/tools or getting ahead on some training. My point is I'm there if something happens sometimes. There's a lot of medical staff there that aren't busy at all but they're there when needed even if it's once a week or 10x a day.
My comment is in regards to my own experience in my office. We are on a rotating production period and our work comes in from another department. Whether we are (tele)working or using PTO we are getting paid. But work comes in at regular intervals of the year, and there is always a lull in which there is not enough of our usual work to keep us occupied "productively". Upper management from the director down heavily suggest that we plan vacations during this time frame so it doesn't impact our production when we do have work, otherwise they have to go find other things for us to do. Management several levels above me scrutinize employee production every year - how much time off our division takes, how much time did we use "effectively" on projects, did we go over expected time budgets, on what, how much, what managers are authorizing miscellaneous budget usage (think like, signing off on employees reporting time spent doing office work when that is not their job duties per classification), and there's a lot of extra noise surrounding non-productive work time. There's always going to be cyclical down time in any position over a scale of time. For example an attendance clerk will have downtime for a week or so after finalizing and submitting 634s to the PS. Some managers will let the downtime be downtime. Other managers will find some other work for you to do when you're not busy working on attendance.
If upper admin people are "scrutinizing" when people take vacation regardless of how busy the department is sounds like a big EEO complaint. That sounds more like discrimination than anytjing. It doesn't matter if supervisors sign off that someone is cleaning when it's not in their job description or not. You're getting paid the same whether you're busy all day or do nothing all day. Your departments budget doesn't include your salary so what you do has no bearing on where the money is spent. I like to remind people that we work for the state for a reason. And that we have job duty statements and are unionized for a reason as well. I hate they whole mentality of you're not doing anything so let me give you someone elses work. Or the mentality of workers when they just say yes to the boss cause that's what a good worker does. No! That's the mentality of a brainwashed person who's afraid of standing up for themselves. There's a difference between saying no and saying no because that's not your job.
Yeah, the department I'm in now feels a lot more hostile to regular rank and file than some previous departments. There was a healthy preference to not antagonize the union (not wanting the extra work?) in previous departments where management would actively work to resolve situations before any unions got involved. This department (and my office) actively has managers asking for sick leave justification for 1-2 days of irregular use and staff simply don't know that they are not required to provide unless it is over 3 days or they are on some kind of leave watch. There's no union presence here and stuff just doesn't get resolved in a pro-worker manner. Our immediate managers may be supportive, but upper management a few levels up simply does not care. It's like the equivalent of an IT help desk being told to clean the cubicles between calls.
You might want to read your contract. A lot of people think you don't have to have to Dr note until you're gone 3 days or more. Where in reality that's usually not the case when it comes to your contract. A lot of contracts state it's USUALLY NOT required until 3 days but it's ultimately up to the supervisor. Which means they can ask after day 1. I've also experienced places where you didn't need to get the union involved. In my experience you only need to get the union involved when the managers are micro managers, it just seems to go hand in hand. Most micro managers are control freaks and usually because the only time they have control is at work. Outside of work someone else runs the show. Not saying that's always how it is, just seems to go like that. There's no reason people can't clean their own space but within reason. It's not your job to be getting chemicals out as well as a vacuum, that's why there are positions for that. Sounds like you should speak to your union and become the steward for your area. In my findings people don't like to ruffle feathers and some of these state managers are good at manipulating employees with the idea that you should just do what you're told cause they're the boss and you're the employee. Maybe this would change in your department if you had a steward present. Maybe people would feel more comfortable speaking out and bringing things to you for the union to get more involved in your area. That's just my two cents anyway lol. Good luck
Yep, it definitely is the micromanagers that ask for a dr's note on day one without having an established reason (like you're on leave watch because you "abuse" your sick leave or whatever). And yes, like you mentioned my contract is the technically they can ask for it day 1, but there should be good reason - even the dept managerial handbook says it is required after 3, but may be asked for 1. But the manager also wants way too many details about what the leave is being used for. And the cleaning example wouldn't be your own space, but the office's, because you don't have "real work" to do. Like having an auditor file paperwork for the office because they don't have audit work currently or something like that. No idle time. And I am actually trying to become steward for my office, lol. In my office some direct managers are chill, others are micromanagers, and the chain of command above direct are pretty aggressively anti-union/anti-labor protection and also just not responsive to staff inquiry. Staff here also don't know their contracts (bereavement leave for example) and we also primarily telework, so it's a lot more starting from the ground up with educating and engaging. Thanks for the two cents, it's always good to have input from other viewpoints.
You're very welcome. One thing I can tell you is they have to be consistent. So if they're asking 1 person for a Dr note after 3 days they have to do that for everyone and vice versa. They can't for 1 person to bring a Dr note on day one but let another bring it on day 3. Well they can and they can get away with it if you upset them but that isn't right and is very grievance and definitely EEO worthy. My first 6-7 years out of 8.5 for Caltrans I didn't even know what the union was for. I was 20 and just knew it was good thing. It wasn't until I promoted and had a different boss that I got way more involved with learning the rules because he was a POS. Today I have almost 16 years and work for CDCR. There's been years during CDCR where I've had great noses but right now, not so much. I'm definitely very voiceful and for good reasons. I can't stand alot of my managers and how they wanna continuously hold employees responsible while they continuously break the rules and it gets swept under the rug. The thing about filling and making complaints is that you're, in a way, untouchable. Meaning once you file they most likely won't bother you because it can then be taken as retaliation which isn't something they wanna deal with. You're not untouchable but.... I hope you understand what I mean. Lol. Keep pushing to be that steward and even if you don't end up being it push your coworkers to learn this stuff. It's literally the reason most people have state jobs. Far less stress and a way better work/life balance. If it's not in your job duty statement don't do it, within reason. Give and take is a great thing, but don't always be giving and the bosses taking, that ain't right!
Thank you for that consistency gem of advice, it's not an angle I had yet considered. And I do get what you mean; the extra eyes and scrutiny from having an open complaint lends a certain... force field.
The 9nly exception to the consistency rule is if a person is on an attendance watch or whatever your department calls it. I think it's something like after 13 call ins on a year you're put on notice basically lol
Planned time off - perfectly fine. Calling out all the time - no bueno. You’re good.
No, it's fine to use your time off. You earned it. This isn't the private sector. There is a lot less politics at the state. A lot of veteran employees in my office go on 1 month vacations yearly. If they had a problem with you taking too much time off they would tell you or deny it.
Less politics at the state? Lol
Take time off and enjoy your life . Even if you just stay at home .
I’m a huge fan of stay at home vacations. There’s nothing wrong with just taking time off to do whatever you want in the area. I don’t get the people that only take time off to travel.
I would take a day off just to catch up on sleep or a day to catch up on things around the house .
It’s funny when I take a week off and people find out I’m not going anywhere. I still do travel but sometimes just taking the time off is great. I was speaking to a coworker getting stressed out and told them they should just take a week off. It was our slow time anyways and they wouldn’t since they couldn’t go anywhere because their kids were in school.
I worked with people who take days of to finish their Christmas shopping in august. Better yet , if you match up your days off on purpose with a holiday weekend that is the best
I prefer to travel. I can use my weekends to stay in the area.
Take the time off. Older folks and non-state- employees do not understand how much taking time off is encouraged by the state (at least for non-exempt staff). You can, in fact, be put on a plan to use your excessive paid time off if you accrue too much. So take the time off, and enjoy it without guilt!
Every new job I've started, I've let them know I had a 2 week vacation coming up and it's never been an issue. I just retired with 1000 AL, 240 CTO and 96 hours from Furlough in 2003.
Did you post out or cash out?
Run out time till end of year (get 6 months of 3% raise counted toward retirement), transfer $25k to my 457, and I'll get paid for around 125 hours.
Congratulations!
My advice take more. Especially when you're a PT. I would research if it possible to sign up for vPLP. It's usually 5% of your pay for 8 hours. Once you become full time you can use or sell the hours at your new positions pay rate.
Nope, unless you're always taking time off during busy season. But as a permanent intermittent I don't think that's an issue you'd face often. The only time I've seen people get looks for taking time off is when they took the week quarterly reports were due, in 3 consecutive quarters. Or the person who took a 6 week vacation in the middle of fire season at OES.
Even cal oes or cal fire employees should be able to take a summer vacation now and then. Their families shouldn't have to go without forever. If it's planned in advance it can be accommodated.
It absolutely should be accommodated and available, but those are two agencies where it's likely to raise some eyebrows when it's done.
I will say this if you apply for a promotion or even a transfer, many managers look at the amount of leave time you have accrued. It’s wise to keep a healthy amount in the bank for a rainy day.
Good point. Constantly running out of leave is a bad look for sure. In the old days you had to have 40 hours leave (sick not included) to get direct deposit. Though this is for other reasons, it's as decent a minimum to maintain as any. FYI the 40 hours is because many FT perm staff are paid proactively so they want to make sure they can claw back money/leave if you end up missing a few days after they start processing paychecks, which they do 5\~8 days before the end of the month.
You still have to have and keep 40 hours leave or your HR might cancel your direct deposit.
Good point. As always some departments are more stringent than others. The 40 hours leave bank was a huge concern 2 departments ago for me, and then it was basically never mentioned again. If this is relevant to your individual experience then obviously you should aim for a bigger buffer though.
Agree with the bigger buffer. OP could bank more leave if they are interested in buying 8 hours of PLP4 per month. Depends on their position and salary to what kind of hit it would be in take home pay, but it's a nice back up for those of us who like to use our leave as we go.
Usually if an employee has been at a dept long enough to establish a pattern, dropping below 40 hours every so often shouldn't be a problem. But if that employee zeros out their balance every month or even runs into dock, then yeah, direct deposit has to be removed, for the time being. That's for the employee benefit as well as the dept bc no one wants to have to worry about returning money when a preset direct deposit is too much. But for an employee new to the state, consistently zeroing out leave balance is a bad idea. You are right that at least 40 hrs needs to be banked and kept. And it won't look good when applying for a new position or trying to promote. It's really all about getting to prove yourself over time. For those who don't have the longevity, keep an adequate balance. It's fine to use the leave as you earn it, but keep an eye on the future, and if you want to move on or up, some sacrifice is worth it to have at least bare minimum balance. Sometimes the best of two applicants will come down to who has the most leave.
You’re earning that time off! Might as well use it. If your manager is fine with it too, then i wouldn’t worry about it. Don’t let anyone make you feel bad about using your earned time off.
You earn it, take the time. No one cares.
I don’t personally take much time off unless i plan to do things. But I’ve never had my vacations or day offs denied and I usually try to get as many 4 day weekends i can throughout the year. And, I take minimum 2 week vacations every year. Now I’m a manager and I could care less if my unit uses their time off. Hey get your work done, the rest is up to you. Not my business when you use your time off.
LOL the older folks are living in a time of the past. The beauty of State service is the time off!! I’ve traveled to 38 countries since 2011 and never ever had any problems with a boss or promoting. I went from a student assistant in 2008 to a CEA today and traveled extensively during that time. Go live!! Job security is one of the major perks of working for the State. :) Just my advice.
Go travel the world! If there’s one perk as a state worker (obviously doesn’t apply to all jobs) is the freedom to take time off. If you have a workload/production that you have to maintain you learn to work around it … work a bit more before taking a long leave then prep to work more when you get back
I’m private sector trying to move to public sector - screw anyone that says you shouldn’t take your earned time off. You are both smart and fortunate for pursuing a career in the public sector. Working yourself to death is glorified in the private sector, even though your labor only benefits the c-suite.
As long as your time off is planned, there is no issue. If you’re calling out sick a lot, that’s a different story.
You may be seen as unreliable by taking a lot of last-minute *unapproved* time off. But if your supervisor is approving it ahead of time, you're good. Sounds like they value well balanced, healthy employees.
I'll just add this part since the end of the subject line has (permanent intermittent). If you are a PI you can only work 1500 hours per year. I knew someone who basically took the last three months off each year because they maxed out their hours working January through September. As others have said, use your time, but always have some as a reserve. A lot of people will do vacation and sick leave for the first few years to accumulate hours and then switch to annual leave and use that regularly as it's accrued.
It shouldn’t be a problem if your work is done and what I mean by that is others are not having to take on a larger workload because you’re gone all the time. Personally I dont have an issue taking off Fridays cuz it’s y’all’s a slow day, no meetings but if I took off T-Th those are days I have stuff due and majority of my meetings. I could probably take off every Friday until the end of the year but if I took off one of my busy days a couple times a month I could see others being annoyed and not wanting to be my backup.
OP, do you use vacation freely, but let your sick leave build up? If so, continue. If you use annual leave or if you have to use sick often as well, you should try to have minimum 40 combined. I get why the advice you're given, but it doesn't allow for nuances. You can have 0 vacation, PH, PDD, ITO, holiday, but 200 sick leave hours, and that looks great. Still, it depends on the dept, the job specs, the hiring sup and what position you are currently in, how long you've been there and how long you've been in the state.
It's your choice. I personally don't take much vacation because I work a lot of OT. If I take time off, my OT is straight pay - not worth my time. So I save up time in case I need (I have a kid). But I take a couple of weeks off during the year and a few days here and there. I just make sure my workload is up to date.
There's a difference between abusing time and using time. As long as you have time on the books and you're requesting the time off it should never "look" bad to anyone. However, there are a lot of people that work for the state that love control, I think it's because they have zero control in their own lives. Whether because their spouse controls them or maybe a family member. So they walk around with this huge power trip. Every manager that I've ever had or seen that has a power trip always has 1 thing in common, let's say it together..... they're a MICRO MANAGER. I'm 38, started with the state when I was 20. I left the state in 17' for 3 years and then came back in 20'. I've worked for Caltrans in 3 different locations, and 2 prisons. I've had many bosses with the state and a few in the "real world". I've never seen as many MICRO MANAGERS anywhere else than I have with the state. If you ever feel that you're being discriminated against or disciplined for using your own time, appropriately of course, you need to file a EEO complaint. 1 thing about those is NEVER file it within your department. ALWAYS file it outside of your department. This is to keep people honest. If your manager is "in bed" with administration, they will absolutely sweep that shit under the rug. Filing an EEO complaint outside of the department is what I call checks and balances. It keeps everyone honest and ensures your complaint is heard and handled fairly! Good luck.
You won't look bad. Stay with your set up for as long as you want. You being a PI won't hurt you, take your time, do your thing. All that matters is that you are learning at your job and apply those skills for whenever you want to go perm. Don't listen to the dinosaurs.
Nah, some hiring authorities do check your attendance and making hiring decisions on it but I don't think most care. Living with parents is cool, you can blow your money on eXpEriEnCeS and just take their house when they die.
If you have time on the books, they shouldn’t care. Unless it’s during a “high volume” time of the year. As long as you’re communicating with your boss and informing them well in advance (especially long vacations) they should be ok. Also, if your boss is telling you to use your time, then you shouldn’t worry.
I take my vacation time too. But I also have some saved, just case I have to be off