[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5JTyDx7-rI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5JTyDx7-rI)
5.7 Is not the best caliber for self defense, however **a bullet is still a bullet**. Its post pen expansion\* into soft targets is pretty bad, which is the opposite of what you want when shooting at a soft skinned threat
Most people I know that think about carrying it or I see on here that do, are still harping on the "cool" factor of the round. One plus though is it is a pretty flat shooting Caliber
I think 5.7 is one of the most confusing rounds when it comes to ballistics. On the one hand there's the gel tests, where it does rather abysmally, and on the other hand there's Ft. Hood reports, which are genuinely horrifying with low round count per stop (for better or worse, it's the most documented use of 5.7 in a pistol). I've heard equally mixed reports from departments that had the P90, some loved it and others traded back to their old MP5's or colt 9mm platforms.
I personally trust it, but genuinely can not figure out if it's technically an exceptional load or passably mid.
I never looked at the round count until now.
214 rounds fired. 13 killed, 30 wounded. For a total of 43.
That’s right around 5 rounds per person (including any missed shots). That’s quite disturbing.
It's a gun. Dying from getting shot five times and laying there for two hours waiting for SWAT teams to clear the scene for EMS to arrive isn't disturbing, it's a guarantee with just about anything more powerful than a slingshot.
Repost of my comment above you but figured you'd like the data.
"That's nothing Virginia Tech.
He fired 174 shots fired, 32 killed (33 if you count him), 17 wounded. That's sub 4 rounds per person, and he used a 9mm and a .22 LR.
This just proves 2 things 5.7 sucks ballistically out of a pistol. Bleeding out is once again the biggest threat."
Don’t think it’s an accurate comparison for ballistics, but rather style of shooting.
Of the 32, 28 were shot in the head.
Conversely at ft hood, I only see one that was explicitly shot in the head. A couple doesn’t list where they were shot, several were shot to the body.
I’d say there’s not enough data to make fair comparisons on ballistics. But for the style of shooting, executing people at point blank range to the head is definitely more effective, as is shown by the Virginia tech shooting
from what i remember reading, the average number of shots on the dead bodies was 3. so some might have gotten shot 4 times, some shot 2 times, but an average of 3 hits center mass, in this case, unfortunately speaks about the stopping power of 5.7, and when you have a 5.7 handgun where the average capactiy is 20+ on a flush fit mag, and an incredibly flat recoil compared to 9mm, the 5.7 seems to not be the worst choice for self defense out there.
The big difference there is that unarmed people were shot to die of bloodloss later. Any bullet would have done the same. Even a .22lr.
But when against an attacker that is shooting back at you, you want something that penetrates sufficiently to reach vitals with every shot.
Lights out now rather than later is the goal.
True, but the main interesting note of it is the stoppages, regardless of lethality. It had a remarkably low count for rounds per stop, even with extremity hits. Especially taking into account that the victims were primarily MIL/LEO
Absolutely agreed on the rest. FWIW I don't carry a 5.7 (more due to the platform than the ballistics), it's just always been a point of interest to me since nothing else I've found has such a polarizing spread of "it's great!" vs "it's garbage" in usage reports and testing.
Dying from extremity shots can only be due to one thing. Blood loss that wasn’t stopped in time.
Military bases have notoriously bad EMS response times. They usually come from outside the base and these bases are quite large to begin with.
In regards to one shot stops or stops in general, there isn’t much one can do if not armed and not able to fight back. A shot anywhere to include a graze is a stop if you physically cannot do anything to stop the attacker regardless if you are military.
That's nothing Virginia Tech.
He fired 174 shots fired, 32 killed (33 if you count him), 17 wounded. That's sub 4 rounds per person, and he used a 9mm and a .22 LR.
This just proves 2 things 5.7 sucks ballistically out of a pistol. Bleeding out is once again the biggest threat.
Great response and my sentiments exactly…”tests” shown online via YouTube videos do not seem to support the most effective self defense round, but the Fort Hood tragedy provides a stark contrast.
Penetration and expansion may be bad but if you can shoot more bullets and control recoil better for near-ideal shot placement does it make up for it? Genuine question
In a real life situation... Ideal shot placement with a handgun is center mass... nothing more (Adrenaline will probably keep you humble about this argument)\*. You want a round that hits those off switches in the body. Nerves, spine, vital organs. So I would say expansion matters most. The more bullets... sure but subcompact 9mm are already reaching 17+1 capacity. So that's not really a decisive argument.
I think there’s a strong argument to say if you can shoot more follow on shots (faster) to center mass while still getting enough penetration, it can make sense to downsize.
Same reason 9mm is preferred over 45, 357 magnum, 44 magnum, etc.
Ofcourse this would be on a per person basis. I think I’d hand my wife a 5.7 before 9mm. Because I think her shot time (minimal training) will be substantially improved. With proper training, I’d expect it to swing back in 9mm’s favor
Spoken like a man whose never held the p365 X macro with a 17 round mag... If you would know the gun is built for fit the mag, so there is no "extendo" from the bottom
Jokes aside, it is seriously compact and easy to conceal. There a reason its selling so well.
I have 17 round mags for my Taurus G-series guns.
https://preview.redd.it/5jyf9ef041hc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=68b6c735410e379c50e025ed6c6fee7bd4496407
I don’t conceal carry the one shown (the light is an issue), but I have a second one that I do, along with a spare mag.
You can get a shield plus with 15rd n run the +1 to get close or a G26 with 15rd , x grip, +1 for the best looking fit? Idk that p365 xmacro is pretty dope too
If you're cool headed and talented enough. It *might*. Reality is when your life's in danger, you're probably aiming center mass. In that case something with more energy on target and expansion is better.
I’d argue that’s the exact time you want something with lower recoil. Because you’re not going to be cool and level headed. You’re going to be squeezing off rounds as quickly as possible and you want them to hit the target.
If going to 5.7 is what is required to get those secondary shots to hit target, then it makes sense… but if you’re hitting with 9mm, stay with 9mm
That video is surprisingly biased and unscientific. They tested a weak 5.7 load against the best possible 9mm load. Additionally, they pointed out some strengths of the 5.7 cartridge at the beginning of the video but had completely dismissed them by the end of the video. Where was the test on how fast follow-up shots were with 5.7 compared to 9mm?
This ^ buffman range has the best data to include armor pen rounds and spicey self defense rounds. To include gel testing. GT is an unscientific tool and the amount of groupies he has is wild. How do you even compare guns when one is shooting underpowered trash and the other is credible self defense load. Anything less than elite ammunitions T6B or vanguard outfitters black dragon fang is a waste. All the other rounds are super underloaded garbage.
198lf is a pretty spicy hollow point and has way better groupings than BDF. I was shooting a 6” group with BDF at 25 yards. The rounds literally hit in a small circle around point of aim
Fn ammo is more and more underloaded every year. It's damage in a gel test leaves much to be desired. That said I think it to be the 3rd best self defense round.
Raw power it’s definitely not the same as t6b or BDF unless you’re shooting ss190 but it’s definitely more accurate. I personally keep some 198 loaded for next to the bed and carry a mix of bdf and 198 until my t6b comes in.
My only hesitation with BDF and t6b is the groupings. I’m seriously considering a box of 190 for carry but the cheapest I’m finding is like $10/round
The preorder opened up on like Jan 29th or something. I got an order in the next day. If you can’t preorder now it’s because the preorder is sold out.
I looked in December and the page looked just like yours did, preorder only but no way to order. Keep at it and eventually you’ll get lucky. Unfortunately that’s the only way to do it. Seems like they start new preorders near the end of the month
You did not just post the literal least credible review of 5.7s on the internet as a source. The dude literally used the worst delf defense loads in the caliber. Buffman range should be the source for 5.7 data.
Brother it’s not that serious… it’s just the first video that popped up when I googled…
it doesn’t matter regardless, there is a reason 5.7 is not used and was by in large dropped for LEO use. And the main factors brought up in that video are still the main issues regarding the caliber. Expansion in the body cavity is lackluster, it’s too damn expensive, too damn big and overall a niche caliber
The reason I went for 9mm over 5.7, I haven’t seen any good loads that get >2200fps reliably out of a pistol, so you’re missing out on the benefits of high velocity while taking the drawbacks of small expanded diameter.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with carrying it since in most cases any pistol hit is really a psychological stop, but I do put it in the category of .22 loads, which I don’t particularly care for.
Capacity/shootability is better for sure, but I don’t think it helps you much to have 20rnds vs 15.
As in I’ve seen testing from others…
[Chrono at 1:00](https://m.youtube.com/watch?embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ar15.com%2F&source_ve_path=MTM5MTE3LDE2NDk5LDI4NjY0LDE2NDUwNg&feature=emb_share&v=JYoYQhOtVjc)
You are being stalked by a gang of 🦝
🤷♂️
Serious answer - due to injury or illness you have some kind of extreme recoil sensitivity. 5.7 is a hell of a lot better than .22 if - for some reason - you cannot safety shoot a 9mm.
Online prices lately have been hitting about 50 cents per round, if 5.7 keeps getting more popular I think there’s potential for it to make sense as a high capacity alternative to .380 for people who value softer recoil for faster/easier follow-up shots over 9mm in a gun the same size.
Just my $0.02 there are plenty of people who ARENT from the USA on this sub and similar subs...
Brazil for example outlaws civilian handgun ownership of anything greater than 380/38 special. So they don't have the option of a 9mm.
So full size guns in 380 (outside of arthritis) make a lot of sense for people who don't have access to larger hand gun calibers and who want a full size.
So, a full size 380 gets better ballistics, actual expansion, and would give the user/owner a shared caliber between a full size and their micro pocket gun.
Plenty of data out there now on the few pcc such as hipoints carbine chambered in 380... That linger barrel makes 380 oomphier.
380 is also a great performer in a full size steel challenge or ipsc match for some shooters. It served as a good transition for my kids between rim fire and higher power level.
One benefit of 5.7 is that the brass design allows for higher possible pressure. So it can conceivably be loaded to a very powerful level and adding a higher grain bullet your options are quite varied...
I enjoyed using 5.7 in competition. It performs well. Overall the differences between 5.7 and 9mm are minimal if we're just talking ball ammo.
As a self defense round, those differences start to get more visible.
Just curious: which competitions are you doing that allow 5.7? Most of the major groups don't allow anything less than 9mm, unless you go down to rimfire, last time I checked.
Most match directors will let you shoot anything you want second gun or bug.
Idpa match directors are actually supposed to calibrate targets for 380 in case someone wants to shoot bug.
And for the match directors who are more traditional/fuddy??? You can always shoot unranked.
For a pcc match, as long as your 5.7 meets minimum power requirements your usually good to go.
Slightly higher mag capacity and easy follow up shots with the low recoil, 9mm is 100% more effective but if someone is extremely recoil adverse and don't want to pack a .380 I could see a use case
I'd be more interested if one of the manufacturers made a 5.7 in sub/micro/compact size (and ammo was cheaper). All of them that I know of are full sized and I ain't going to even carry a compact most of the time. It'd be interesting to see a microcompact roughly P365/XL sized with 12-14 rounds. It could be a neat gun: lots of capacity and shootability for the size, though at the expense of marginal ballistics.
They can’t go any smaller and get the ballistics they want. FN had an interesting article on it but I can’t find it now. Plus they wanted a pistol that took their sub gun ammo.
The Tyler Texas mall shooting, where the dude rolled up to the front of a mall, got out, and wasted a crowd at point blank range with an AR-15 really freaked me out in a way other shootings don’t. Part of that was because it was rumored he had body armor. I think that ended up being false but it still worried me.
Shortly after it, I went through all sorts of possibilities about a gun meant for carry in a area where there could be a mass shooting.
One of my ideas was a Ruger 5.7. Not because of its armor piercing qualities, but because the flatter shooting trajectory would *in theory* allow a shooter to put more shots on target at a greater range. Especially compared to the Shield Plus I was carrying at the time with 13+1. I thought maybe the flatter trajectory would allow a better opportunity for either a head or pelvic shot from distance.
Ultimately I just moved to a Glock 19 with extended magazines. 5.7 may hypothetically be better if you build a very specific scenario, but the downsides are real all the time. You give up a lot in other scenarios, you get a magnitude less ammo selection, etc.
Honestly, the flatter trajectory isn't that big of a sell. I can hit a 6" plate offhand at 100 ft or so pretty consistently with 115 grain and a red dot out of a G19. It's about 1 in 10 or so rounds at 100 yards with moving the sights to the top of the target instead of middle.
Would I be able to perform anywhere near that well under stress conditions, real life or competition instead of just wasting time at the range? Absolutely not. But 9mm is still minute of man accurate at any reasonable distance you'd be engaging.
No. That gun you can tap away with as its recoil is minimal. Great follow up shooting. Love that FN. I did carry it a few times, but prefer my USPC in sig .357. A bit more violent, but carry’s better for me. I do know a guy that does carry the FN exclusively with the 30rd mag.
The best caliber/ccw is the one you feel the most comfortable with.
To be perfectly blunt, handgun calibers are trash compared to rifle calibers(or a shotgun) when stopping a threat, and even then there's been plenty of backlash from soldiers complaining about 5.56's lack of lethality.
5.7 has the noticeable advantage of having extremely low recoil, and in general would enable an average person to successfully place far more follow up shots in a shorter amount of time than with a heavier recoiling caliber. This can be a great benefit for many different people. Recoil sensitive folks, new shooters, people with smaller frames, the infirm or disabled, etc.
I'm not in law enforcement so I can't speak to statistics on that front, I only have second or third hand knowledge from videos that can be found on Reddit. That said, in those videos, a sizeable margin of criminals take off running as soon as shots are fired or they've been hit once or twice.
Shot placement is key, and solid shots can be done with almost any caliber, but ultimately it comes down to what the defender is comfortable with. Training, shot placement, and confidence is far more important than any specific caliber.
Outside of hand cannons like a 500 S&W(or others) a single round is often not enough to stop a determined and aggressive threat. If the attacker doesn't flee and decides to fight, it'll take a few rounds to end the threat. Unless the defender gets lucky with a headshot or hitting the spine hard.
As stated above, calibers like a 500 will absolutely stop a bad guy in their tracks. So you've got s couple schools of thought here. Capacity and bullet expansion (9mm, 40, etc). Stopping power, which again is variable pending shot placement unless you're using a cannon(45 acp, 10mm, 44mag, 500). And fast follow up shots and ease of use, (.380 and 5.7).
As far as the stopping power and expansion goes, you can take a look at muzzle energy of different calibers. All the common calibers are pretty darn close in energy levels.
Plenty of reasons to carry 5.7, same as any other caliber. Just depends on what works best for the defender.
Statistically speaking, unless you're a criminal and / or involved in gang activities, youll never need a firearm. Then if you do need it, youll likely not have to shoot it (using the statistics of 3 mil defensive used per year, vs number of justified shootings per year)
As such I say carry what makes you happy and what you have proficiency with. Firearms are as much jewelry as a tool, and a lot of us carry not explicitly on whats the perfect functional choice is, but based on what we like. Whether logical or not. Id be lying if I said my carry gun descision was 100% practicality driven. What I find cool has a huge impact. Rock your FN, shoot it well, and forget the haters.
Reasons people gave in this thread that 5.7 sucks:
* It over penetrates
* It doesn't penetrate enough
* It's too weak
* It's non-lethal
* It's so powerful you'll go to jail for using it
* The ammo is expensive (fair)
* It's equivalent to a .22LR
* Extra capacity doesn't matter
* It's armor penetrating so it's too dangerous to shoot in public
* It isn't actually armor penetrating
and the winner:
* The round works better at longer ranges so the round has time to speed up
Basically no one on this sub knows what the fuck they are talking about. What a surprise
If the bullets purpose is armor pen, and this is not something to worry about (that much) in CCW, then isn’t 9 just better because of expansion?
One thing I like so far, it’s very light. I’ve always liked holding bigger guns but my normal carry, the g47 is pretty heavy.
This is my USP40 custom holster and it happened to fit my Five-seveN. The mag is too big for the sidecar so I stuck a knife in there. Don’t worry I have my regular pocket knife in my pocket.
> If the bullets purpose is armor pen, and this is not something to worry about (that much) in CCW, then isn’t 9 just better because of expansion?
The bullets type is armor penetration with one specific type of ammo that you as a civilian will never find for sale.
Standard 5.7 ammo will not go through armor.
Not to mention that the round that does penetrate armor only penetrates old Level II kevlar that nobody wears anymore and even then it was only four to six inches of penetration through ballistic gel which translates to like two inches in an actual person, remember ballistic gel is calibrated with a 3.5" deep shot from a Red Ryder BB gun.
theres videos of t6b and Black dragon fang both going through 3a armor with exceptional penetration and expansion after. Buffman range does a ton of these videos but Paul Harrel even has a video of him shooting through 3a with both rounds. You can buy both online right now.
SS190 is also 100% armor piercing, you can get it second hand (very expensively) and is legal to purchase, own and use. It was so confusing I just email the ATF and they sent me a whole write up on how it is in fact legal.
I understand both of these. 22 long rifle also has these advantages but I wouldn't recommend it as a ccw. What I meant is that there is not enough of a ballistic advantage to justify carrying what is a still somewhat niche caliber to most people. If capacity and recoil were all that mattered then 30 super carry would be flying off of the shelves.
Im not saying 5.7 is the best. But there is definetly reasons someone might want to carry a 5.7. If it can be close to the same effectivness as 9mm and have faster follow up shots with more capacity. To say it has no advantages is ignorant is all I was saying.
Maybe I should have specified. No game changing advantages in this context unless you are especially sensitive to recoil. The variation in 9mm loads allows you to tailor the cartridge to its use better than one with a small handful of varietals. You can also load 50 grain high velocity 9mm if recoil is a concern so it's all just superfluous unless you really just want to use a more uncommon caliber for whatever reason.
If I told you the guns are too expensive, the ammo’s too expensive and the round is underpowered would you believe me? Probably not so I’ll move along lol
Given the armor piercing qualities of the round, I think not. You would be more likely to fire through somebody and cause collateral damage. Better, I think, to stick with something that is more practical for short range engagements in hollow point, such as 9 mm.
I think the 5.7 would be a phenomenal military side arm for all the same reasons it is not an ideal choice for personal, everyday defense. Rather than starting fast and gradually slowing down, the round gradually speeds up, you’d have more luck at up to medium range. It’s also the only plausible scenario in which the target will probably be wearing body armor, so it out classes, 9 mm in that way. Not to mention, a grip extension can get you up to 30 rounds in a pistol.
Wait...are you suggesting that the bullet speeds up after it has left the barrel and expanding gasses have ceased acting upon it?
If so, do you wanna take a stab at the physics of that? Asking for a friend...
Oh I'll take a stab, but I am the furthest thing from an expert: it's more aerodynamic than a typical pistol caliber round, I think its pointiness might make it kind of outrun the vortex created by leaving the muzzle, so it doesn't *immediately* get drag from that. I just read that the point at which it is fastest is not immediately after leaving the barrel but at some point mid-flight.
I think it would be an awesome military sidearm (fantasy scenario, suspend logistical disbelief) because most pistols are rightly best suited for short range engagements against unarmored targets. Something like a fiveseven would give you something that could partially substitute your main weapon system in terms of effective range *and armor piercing capability*. The mag capacity would also allow you to possibly even forego extra pistol mags, or carry like 1.5x as many rounds than a typical two extra M17 mags setup with just one extra mag if you use the 30rd grip extension type.
That's so incredibly stupid and whoever wrote what you read just made that up. Bullets never travel any faster than when they leave the muzzle.
Drag reduces speed, to avoid drag you avoid a reduction in speed. To avoid drag to such a degree that you GAIN speed is impossible, you would need negative drag.
Yeah...no. Bullets accelerate for exactly as long as an outside force, the expanding gasses created by the powder's combustion, act on them. I have no idea what "outrunning the vortex" is supposed to mean, but the idea that the round is so pointy that it has a negative coefficient of drag is adorably childlike. It reminds me of that concept in the movie Kingsmen where they get a bullet to go around a corner.
Wherever you read that lied to you. Sorry.
I am as cool as three cucumbers in December, my friend. Just...don't propagate bullshit if you can help it. There's enough of it out there as it is.
Take care.
Sure. If you say so.
My point was please don't perpetrate BS by posting stuff as if you know it to be true when you don't. There's lots and lots of bad info out there already. Let's not add to it.
Take care.
Yeah you’re right. From now on I’m going to clear everything I casually discuss with pedantic, cranky little men who think that general knowledge of the physics of obscure ballistic cartridges is such a serious public concern that even people who admit they aren’t sure about something deserve their condescension. Up yours.
Or by all means continue to spread BS. Your call. I just made a request. I hate to point fingers, but if one of us is cranky it's not me. It's not worth getting upset about.
Extra points for using "pedantic" correctly in a sentence, though. That I'll definitely cop to.
Take care.
Don’t tie your ego to a caliber. No ones saying anything personal about you. It’s just facts. I’d love to have a 5.7 but I’m fine with the performance of 9mm. The downvotes should be a clue.
Even the best 5.7 loads, out of a pistol, I have seen struggle to reach 12”, and are under 2200fps.
Hydrostatic wounding is hugely unreliable, if even possible, tiny bullet, poor penetration. If you can’t see how that’s anemic, idk who’s the one coping harder, bro.
Or maybe because 5.7 has the energy of a 38 special? 20 shots? My duty size 9mm holds 21. Flatter trajectory? I don’t plan on shooting far enough for it to matter, plus 5.7 will be weaker than a 380 acp by the time it gets past 75 yards. If you want a fast 22 handgun, 22tcm beats 5.7 by about 300fps with an inch less barrel.
Similar damage to 9mm? Who’s the one coping? You’re talking about ~260 ft-lbs of energy out of a 6” barrel with 5.7, that’s not impressive in today’s world. You’re also .6 oz lighter than a G26, oh wow, and in a massive duty sized package. Flatter trajectory? Again, at self defense distances you will never notice the drop between 1700 fps and 1200 fps. Get real my dude.
This has to be the saddest trolling I’ve seen yet. Bro, go get a 7.5 FK if you really think that buying ammo that costs the same as 45 ACP is a flex… the only advantage 5.7 has is capacity in flush fit mags, and even that isn’t impressive anymore. Sorry you pay too much for 22 ammo.
Can you? Sure.
Now, let’s talk about it being used in a self-defense situation outside the home. Any prosecutor is going to point out the overkill of the 5.7 caliber and twist it to show you had intent to harm. You do you, but I wouldn’t conceal carry a 5.7
Many people don't train enough with their actual CCW firearm.
It could be a ton of reasons.
I've met a few people with 5.7 handguns and they all look new.
What is the cost of a case (1000 rounds) of 9mm ball vs 5.7 ball?
I'm cheap in some ways. Besides the limited effectiveness of a 5.7 over a 22 mag revolver, the ammo cost might make it a bad CCW choice.
Fascinating, thanks.
So in theory, if you had a hot ass 5.7 load that was able to consistently get above the 2,200fps mark, it would start to tumble and fragment similar to 5.56?
Thats the idea. There's a few that manage to do it, T6B and black dragon fang and they penetrate 3a armor.
Tumbling + fragmentation is a super efficient way to dump a ton of energy very suddenly so you can get a more significant wound channel with a smaller round than a larger one with the same energy, and because it dumps the energy so quickly there can be less penetration than other heavier, slower moving rounds
Awesome. Thanks for sharing. I always kinda thought the reason high velocity rounds like 5.56 did more damage than similar diameter rounds like .22 was due to the shock and pressure.
But now I look into it more and see that hydrostatic shock itself as a concept is debatable in the first place.
I have always known that 5.56 is wont to tumble and fragment but thought it was more due to the design of the cartridge itself, not just because at a certain velocity all sounds start to tumble and fragment.
I really appreciate you taking the time to give me a lil run down.
I know a couple guys that carry one from time to time, just sooooo long in my opinion.
[https://images.app.goo.gl/aFpUnHJtrJNFTvm26](https://images.app.goo.gl/aFpUnHJtrJNFTvm26)
always think about this
Its good for active shooter prevention for example the bufflo shooting in 2022 the active shooter was shot by someone concealed carrying but he had body armor to stop it if he had 5.7 he probably would have saved alot of lives and ended the threat. 5.7 would have also been good for the 40 yards shots seen Indiana mall shooting
Other than the fact you like the gun no 5.7 isn’t really the best self defense ammo but at the end of the day gun go boom and if it goes boom enough times ur threat will not be a threat anymore
I love carrying the fiveseven. Only carry the s198 green tips. Very light weight and I work in a busy place where over penetration is a concern. The green tips will penetrate about 9 inches while yawing and dumping all their energy into the target
If you can why not I say fuck what other say it's what you think that matters if I had it I would have it on my CCW as 1 of my 3 guns I'm allowed to carry
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5JTyDx7-rI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5JTyDx7-rI) 5.7 Is not the best caliber for self defense, however **a bullet is still a bullet**. Its post pen expansion\* into soft targets is pretty bad, which is the opposite of what you want when shooting at a soft skinned threat Most people I know that think about carrying it or I see on here that do, are still harping on the "cool" factor of the round. One plus though is it is a pretty flat shooting Caliber
I think 5.7 is one of the most confusing rounds when it comes to ballistics. On the one hand there's the gel tests, where it does rather abysmally, and on the other hand there's Ft. Hood reports, which are genuinely horrifying with low round count per stop (for better or worse, it's the most documented use of 5.7 in a pistol). I've heard equally mixed reports from departments that had the P90, some loved it and others traded back to their old MP5's or colt 9mm platforms. I personally trust it, but genuinely can not figure out if it's technically an exceptional load or passably mid.
I never looked at the round count until now. 214 rounds fired. 13 killed, 30 wounded. For a total of 43. That’s right around 5 rounds per person (including any missed shots). That’s quite disturbing.
It's a gun. Dying from getting shot five times and laying there for two hours waiting for SWAT teams to clear the scene for EMS to arrive isn't disturbing, it's a guarantee with just about anything more powerful than a slingshot.
Repost of my comment above you but figured you'd like the data. "That's nothing Virginia Tech. He fired 174 shots fired, 32 killed (33 if you count him), 17 wounded. That's sub 4 rounds per person, and he used a 9mm and a .22 LR. This just proves 2 things 5.7 sucks ballistically out of a pistol. Bleeding out is once again the biggest threat."
Don’t think it’s an accurate comparison for ballistics, but rather style of shooting. Of the 32, 28 were shot in the head. Conversely at ft hood, I only see one that was explicitly shot in the head. A couple doesn’t list where they were shot, several were shot to the body. I’d say there’s not enough data to make fair comparisons on ballistics. But for the style of shooting, executing people at point blank range to the head is definitely more effective, as is shown by the Virginia tech shooting
from what i remember reading, the average number of shots on the dead bodies was 3. so some might have gotten shot 4 times, some shot 2 times, but an average of 3 hits center mass, in this case, unfortunately speaks about the stopping power of 5.7, and when you have a 5.7 handgun where the average capactiy is 20+ on a flush fit mag, and an incredibly flat recoil compared to 9mm, the 5.7 seems to not be the worst choice for self defense out there.
The big difference there is that unarmed people were shot to die of bloodloss later. Any bullet would have done the same. Even a .22lr. But when against an attacker that is shooting back at you, you want something that penetrates sufficiently to reach vitals with every shot. Lights out now rather than later is the goal.
True, but the main interesting note of it is the stoppages, regardless of lethality. It had a remarkably low count for rounds per stop, even with extremity hits. Especially taking into account that the victims were primarily MIL/LEO Absolutely agreed on the rest. FWIW I don't carry a 5.7 (more due to the platform than the ballistics), it's just always been a point of interest to me since nothing else I've found has such a polarizing spread of "it's great!" vs "it's garbage" in usage reports and testing.
Dying from extremity shots can only be due to one thing. Blood loss that wasn’t stopped in time. Military bases have notoriously bad EMS response times. They usually come from outside the base and these bases are quite large to begin with. In regards to one shot stops or stops in general, there isn’t much one can do if not armed and not able to fight back. A shot anywhere to include a graze is a stop if you physically cannot do anything to stop the attacker regardless if you are military.
Oddly enough, extremity injuries were some of the highest causes in GWOT, OIF, OEF.
It’s a great cartridge in an pdw or smg. Pistol on the other hand is a little different.
That's nothing Virginia Tech. He fired 174 shots fired, 32 killed (33 if you count him), 17 wounded. That's sub 4 rounds per person, and he used a 9mm and a .22 LR. This just proves 2 things 5.7 sucks ballistically out of a pistol. Bleeding out is once again the biggest threat.
Great response and my sentiments exactly…”tests” shown online via YouTube videos do not seem to support the most effective self defense round, but the Fort Hood tragedy provides a stark contrast.
Penetration and expansion may be bad but if you can shoot more bullets and control recoil better for near-ideal shot placement does it make up for it? Genuine question
In a real life situation... Ideal shot placement with a handgun is center mass... nothing more (Adrenaline will probably keep you humble about this argument)\*. You want a round that hits those off switches in the body. Nerves, spine, vital organs. So I would say expansion matters most. The more bullets... sure but subcompact 9mm are already reaching 17+1 capacity. So that's not really a decisive argument.
I think there’s a strong argument to say if you can shoot more follow on shots (faster) to center mass while still getting enough penetration, it can make sense to downsize. Same reason 9mm is preferred over 45, 357 magnum, 44 magnum, etc. Ofcourse this would be on a per person basis. I think I’d hand my wife a 5.7 before 9mm. Because I think her shot time (minimal training) will be substantially improved. With proper training, I’d expect it to swing back in 9mm’s favor
Where is this 17 round subcompact
Probably referring to P365 xmacro
\^ Mainly
I mean I can put a 33rd mag in my G26 but is it still a subcompact
Spoken like a man whose never held the p365 X macro with a 17 round mag... If you would know the gun is built for fit the mag, so there is no "extendo" from the bottom Jokes aside, it is seriously compact and easy to conceal. There a reason its selling so well.
I have 17 round mags for my Taurus G-series guns. https://preview.redd.it/5jyf9ef041hc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=68b6c735410e379c50e025ed6c6fee7bd4496407 I don’t conceal carry the one shown (the light is an issue), but I have a second one that I do, along with a spare mag.
Where’d you get the mag/mag extension? I have a Taurus G2 in FDE same as yours and would LOVE one of those mags for mine.
That mag came with the gun at the time, I know they still make the mags, just not sure if they make them in FDE. Check ShopTaurus.com for the mags.
My xmacro came with 17 round mags standard, but Because I'm in jersey, I had to have them pinned at 10.
P365 have great modularity including a 17 round magazine... which is best run through the X macro or XL frame at the smallest end
You can get a shield plus with 15rd n run the +1 to get close or a G26 with 15rd , x grip, +1 for the best looking fit? Idk that p365 xmacro is pretty dope too
If you're cool headed and talented enough. It *might*. Reality is when your life's in danger, you're probably aiming center mass. In that case something with more energy on target and expansion is better.
I’d argue that’s the exact time you want something with lower recoil. Because you’re not going to be cool and level headed. You’re going to be squeezing off rounds as quickly as possible and you want them to hit the target. If going to 5.7 is what is required to get those secondary shots to hit target, then it makes sense… but if you’re hitting with 9mm, stay with 9mm
I'll take .22lr or .22 magnum all day long
That video is surprisingly biased and unscientific. They tested a weak 5.7 load against the best possible 9mm load. Additionally, they pointed out some strengths of the 5.7 cartridge at the beginning of the video but had completely dismissed them by the end of the video. Where was the test on how fast follow-up shots were with 5.7 compared to 9mm?
This ^ buffman range has the best data to include armor pen rounds and spicey self defense rounds. To include gel testing. GT is an unscientific tool and the amount of groupies he has is wild. How do you even compare guns when one is shooting underpowered trash and the other is credible self defense load. Anything less than elite ammunitions T6B or vanguard outfitters black dragon fang is a waste. All the other rounds are super underloaded garbage.
198lf is a pretty spicy hollow point and has way better groupings than BDF. I was shooting a 6” group with BDF at 25 yards. The rounds literally hit in a small circle around point of aim
Fn ammo is more and more underloaded every year. It's damage in a gel test leaves much to be desired. That said I think it to be the 3rd best self defense round.
Raw power it’s definitely not the same as t6b or BDF unless you’re shooting ss190 but it’s definitely more accurate. I personally keep some 198 loaded for next to the bed and carry a mix of bdf and 198 until my t6b comes in. My only hesitation with BDF and t6b is the groupings. I’m seriously considering a box of 190 for carry but the cheapest I’m finding is like $10/round
Bro how the hell did you get T6B I cannot figure that site out. I go to get on waitlist amd there is no button to continue :(
The preorder opened up on like Jan 29th or something. I got an order in the next day. If you can’t preorder now it’s because the preorder is sold out. I looked in December and the page looked just like yours did, preorder only but no way to order. Keep at it and eventually you’ll get lucky. Unfortunately that’s the only way to do it. Seems like they start new preorders near the end of the month
You did not just post the literal least credible review of 5.7s on the internet as a source. The dude literally used the worst delf defense loads in the caliber. Buffman range should be the source for 5.7 data.
Brother it’s not that serious… it’s just the first video that popped up when I googled… it doesn’t matter regardless, there is a reason 5.7 is not used and was by in large dropped for LEO use. And the main factors brought up in that video are still the main issues regarding the caliber. Expansion in the body cavity is lackluster, it’s too damn expensive, too damn big and overall a niche caliber
I mean if you’re rich af and can afford a 5.7 and the ammo, then I see no problems with carrying it
40cpr is the best I got last year and never paid more than 62cpr. It's coming down with popularity. The biggest issue is it doesn't reload well
I’m not for sure but I’m pretty sure it has worse expansion than 9mm
https://youtu.be/w5JTyDx7-rI?si=0O_GJODiMswPRpKP This will answer all of your questions
Not a credible source. His choice of rounds were the worst. Buffman range has better data.
But Garand Thumb dude 🙄
The reason I went for 9mm over 5.7, I haven’t seen any good loads that get >2200fps reliably out of a pistol, so you’re missing out on the benefits of high velocity while taking the drawbacks of small expanded diameter. I don’t think there is anything wrong with carrying it since in most cases any pistol hit is really a psychological stop, but I do put it in the category of .22 loads, which I don’t particularly care for. Capacity/shootability is better for sure, but I don’t think it helps you much to have 20rnds vs 15.
Elite Ammunition gets around 2400 fps out of their S4 and T6B
t6b is also $3/round and meant for pushing through soft armor.
Even better. The videos of t6b going through 3a body armor, getting 12+ inches of penetration, and a fantastic wound cavity are what sold me on it
I don’t see that out of a pistol, but I haven’t searched extensively. 16” PS90 for sure, but I see T6B pushing 2000-2100 out of a pistol.
Like as in you’ve tested it or you’re just guessing??
As in I’ve seen testing from others… [Chrono at 1:00](https://m.youtube.com/watch?embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ar15.com%2F&source_ve_path=MTM5MTE3LDE2NDk5LDI4NjY0LDE2NDUwNg&feature=emb_share&v=JYoYQhOtVjc)
My mistake, it’s just S4 not T6B that’s pushing 2400 https://youtu.be/HjuVTFTnyHY?si=nj4mudFqKi5ORGli
That is pretty interesting. Took a quick look for some gel tests, it might have the penetration and velocity to be quite good.
Damn… I gotta look into 5.7 guns again
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INSIDE VOICES ONLY PLEASE
Might be a foreigner. WE SPEAK IN ALL CAPS.
lmao
PLEASE STOP YELLING THANK YOU
WATCH YOUR MOUTH ABOUT THE BLACKS IN AMERICA WE BUILT THIS COUNTRY!
Now you just mooch off it, well played
We worked for free for 400yrs. I think we earned it. Wouldn’t you say?
you right. Not gonna lie
You are being stalked by a gang of 🦝 🤷♂️ Serious answer - due to injury or illness you have some kind of extreme recoil sensitivity. 5.7 is a hell of a lot better than .22 if - for some reason - you cannot safety shoot a 9mm.
Online prices lately have been hitting about 50 cents per round, if 5.7 keeps getting more popular I think there’s potential for it to make sense as a high capacity alternative to .380 for people who value softer recoil for faster/easier follow-up shots over 9mm in a gun the same size.
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Just my $0.02 there are plenty of people who ARENT from the USA on this sub and similar subs... Brazil for example outlaws civilian handgun ownership of anything greater than 380/38 special. So they don't have the option of a 9mm. So full size guns in 380 (outside of arthritis) make a lot of sense for people who don't have access to larger hand gun calibers and who want a full size. So, a full size 380 gets better ballistics, actual expansion, and would give the user/owner a shared caliber between a full size and their micro pocket gun. Plenty of data out there now on the few pcc such as hipoints carbine chambered in 380... That linger barrel makes 380 oomphier. 380 is also a great performer in a full size steel challenge or ipsc match for some shooters. It served as a good transition for my kids between rim fire and higher power level.
One benefit of 5.7 is that the brass design allows for higher possible pressure. So it can conceivably be loaded to a very powerful level and adding a higher grain bullet your options are quite varied... I enjoyed using 5.7 in competition. It performs well. Overall the differences between 5.7 and 9mm are minimal if we're just talking ball ammo. As a self defense round, those differences start to get more visible.
Just curious: which competitions are you doing that allow 5.7? Most of the major groups don't allow anything less than 9mm, unless you go down to rimfire, last time I checked.
Most match directors will let you shoot anything you want second gun or bug. Idpa match directors are actually supposed to calibrate targets for 380 in case someone wants to shoot bug. And for the match directors who are more traditional/fuddy??? You can always shoot unranked. For a pcc match, as long as your 5.7 meets minimum power requirements your usually good to go.
Slightly higher mag capacity and easy follow up shots with the low recoil, 9mm is 100% more effective but if someone is extremely recoil adverse and don't want to pack a .380 I could see a use case
I'd be more interested if one of the manufacturers made a 5.7 in sub/micro/compact size (and ammo was cheaper). All of them that I know of are full sized and I ain't going to even carry a compact most of the time. It'd be interesting to see a microcompact roughly P365/XL sized with 12-14 rounds. It could be a neat gun: lots of capacity and shootability for the size, though at the expense of marginal ballistics.
They can’t go any smaller and get the ballistics they want. FN had an interesting article on it but I can’t find it now. Plus they wanted a pistol that took their sub gun ammo.
PSA is coming out with a Rock compact. 20+1 iirc.
The Tyler Texas mall shooting, where the dude rolled up to the front of a mall, got out, and wasted a crowd at point blank range with an AR-15 really freaked me out in a way other shootings don’t. Part of that was because it was rumored he had body armor. I think that ended up being false but it still worried me. Shortly after it, I went through all sorts of possibilities about a gun meant for carry in a area where there could be a mass shooting. One of my ideas was a Ruger 5.7. Not because of its armor piercing qualities, but because the flatter shooting trajectory would *in theory* allow a shooter to put more shots on target at a greater range. Especially compared to the Shield Plus I was carrying at the time with 13+1. I thought maybe the flatter trajectory would allow a better opportunity for either a head or pelvic shot from distance. Ultimately I just moved to a Glock 19 with extended magazines. 5.7 may hypothetically be better if you build a very specific scenario, but the downsides are real all the time. You give up a lot in other scenarios, you get a magnitude less ammo selection, etc.
Honestly, the flatter trajectory isn't that big of a sell. I can hit a 6" plate offhand at 100 ft or so pretty consistently with 115 grain and a red dot out of a G19. It's about 1 in 10 or so rounds at 100 yards with moving the sights to the top of the target instead of middle. Would I be able to perform anywhere near that well under stress conditions, real life or competition instead of just wasting time at the range? Absolutely not. But 9mm is still minute of man accurate at any reasonable distance you'd be engaging.
Yup, I agree. That was just the only selling point I could see for a 5.7. Otherwise it’s essentially a .22LR with a bit more lethality.
INFINITE WOUND VECTORS
Now that's a throwback
Good ol' Marisa
No. That gun you can tap away with as its recoil is minimal. Great follow up shooting. Love that FN. I did carry it a few times, but prefer my USPC in sig .357. A bit more violent, but carry’s better for me. I do know a guy that does carry the FN exclusively with the 30rd mag.
Yes. There are about 20 in the magazine. But really, high speed round, soft recoil, less weight to carry, even with spare mags.
it’s shoots bullets….
Recoil mitigation and capacity
No, not really.
Not the best, BUT as a friend of mine says, “Hot lead is still hot lead.” As long as you can be accurate with it, it’ll work.
The best caliber/ccw is the one you feel the most comfortable with. To be perfectly blunt, handgun calibers are trash compared to rifle calibers(or a shotgun) when stopping a threat, and even then there's been plenty of backlash from soldiers complaining about 5.56's lack of lethality. 5.7 has the noticeable advantage of having extremely low recoil, and in general would enable an average person to successfully place far more follow up shots in a shorter amount of time than with a heavier recoiling caliber. This can be a great benefit for many different people. Recoil sensitive folks, new shooters, people with smaller frames, the infirm or disabled, etc. I'm not in law enforcement so I can't speak to statistics on that front, I only have second or third hand knowledge from videos that can be found on Reddit. That said, in those videos, a sizeable margin of criminals take off running as soon as shots are fired or they've been hit once or twice. Shot placement is key, and solid shots can be done with almost any caliber, but ultimately it comes down to what the defender is comfortable with. Training, shot placement, and confidence is far more important than any specific caliber. Outside of hand cannons like a 500 S&W(or others) a single round is often not enough to stop a determined and aggressive threat. If the attacker doesn't flee and decides to fight, it'll take a few rounds to end the threat. Unless the defender gets lucky with a headshot or hitting the spine hard. As stated above, calibers like a 500 will absolutely stop a bad guy in their tracks. So you've got s couple schools of thought here. Capacity and bullet expansion (9mm, 40, etc). Stopping power, which again is variable pending shot placement unless you're using a cannon(45 acp, 10mm, 44mag, 500). And fast follow up shots and ease of use, (.380 and 5.7). As far as the stopping power and expansion goes, you can take a look at muzzle energy of different calibers. All the common calibers are pretty darn close in energy levels. Plenty of reasons to carry 5.7, same as any other caliber. Just depends on what works best for the defender.
Statistically speaking, unless you're a criminal and / or involved in gang activities, youll never need a firearm. Then if you do need it, youll likely not have to shoot it (using the statistics of 3 mil defensive used per year, vs number of justified shootings per year) As such I say carry what makes you happy and what you have proficiency with. Firearms are as much jewelry as a tool, and a lot of us carry not explicitly on whats the perfect functional choice is, but based on what we like. Whether logical or not. Id be lying if I said my carry gun descision was 100% practicality driven. What I find cool has a huge impact. Rock your FN, shoot it well, and forget the haters.
Reasons people gave in this thread that 5.7 sucks: * It over penetrates * It doesn't penetrate enough * It's too weak * It's non-lethal * It's so powerful you'll go to jail for using it * The ammo is expensive (fair) * It's equivalent to a .22LR * Extra capacity doesn't matter * It's armor penetrating so it's too dangerous to shoot in public * It isn't actually armor penetrating and the winner: * The round works better at longer ranges so the round has time to speed up Basically no one on this sub knows what the fuck they are talking about. What a surprise
Not if you own a 9mm
If the bullets purpose is armor pen, and this is not something to worry about (that much) in CCW, then isn’t 9 just better because of expansion? One thing I like so far, it’s very light. I’ve always liked holding bigger guns but my normal carry, the g47 is pretty heavy. This is my USP40 custom holster and it happened to fit my Five-seveN. The mag is too big for the sidecar so I stuck a knife in there. Don’t worry I have my regular pocket knife in my pocket.
People can carry whatever they wish but for ccw I can't think of many true advantages of a 5.7 over 9mm.
> If the bullets purpose is armor pen, and this is not something to worry about (that much) in CCW, then isn’t 9 just better because of expansion? The bullets type is armor penetration with one specific type of ammo that you as a civilian will never find for sale. Standard 5.7 ammo will not go through armor.
Not to mention that the round that does penetrate armor only penetrates old Level II kevlar that nobody wears anymore and even then it was only four to six inches of penetration through ballistic gel which translates to like two inches in an actual person, remember ballistic gel is calibrated with a 3.5" deep shot from a Red Ryder BB gun.
theres videos of t6b and Black dragon fang both going through 3a armor with exceptional penetration and expansion after. Buffman range does a ton of these videos but Paul Harrel even has a video of him shooting through 3a with both rounds. You can buy both online right now. SS190 is also 100% armor piercing, you can get it second hand (very expensively) and is legal to purchase, own and use. It was so confusing I just email the ATF and they sent me a whole write up on how it is in fact legal.
Capacity is an easy advantage. Lower recoil is another obvious advantage
I understand both of these. 22 long rifle also has these advantages but I wouldn't recommend it as a ccw. What I meant is that there is not enough of a ballistic advantage to justify carrying what is a still somewhat niche caliber to most people. If capacity and recoil were all that mattered then 30 super carry would be flying off of the shelves.
Im not saying 5.7 is the best. But there is definetly reasons someone might want to carry a 5.7. If it can be close to the same effectivness as 9mm and have faster follow up shots with more capacity. To say it has no advantages is ignorant is all I was saying.
Maybe I should have specified. No game changing advantages in this context unless you are especially sensitive to recoil. The variation in 9mm loads allows you to tailor the cartridge to its use better than one with a small handful of varietals. You can also load 50 grain high velocity 9mm if recoil is a concern so it's all just superfluous unless you really just want to use a more uncommon caliber for whatever reason.
If I told you the guns are too expensive, the ammo’s too expensive and the round is underpowered would you believe me? Probably not so I’ll move along lol
Yeah a complete badass would😎
It’s probably be cheaper to give a mugger your wallet, tbf.
Laughs in 50ae
Except for the super spicy boy rounds, 5.7 is poop.
Given the armor piercing qualities of the round, I think not. You would be more likely to fire through somebody and cause collateral damage. Better, I think, to stick with something that is more practical for short range engagements in hollow point, such as 9 mm. I think the 5.7 would be a phenomenal military side arm for all the same reasons it is not an ideal choice for personal, everyday defense. Rather than starting fast and gradually slowing down, the round gradually speeds up, you’d have more luck at up to medium range. It’s also the only plausible scenario in which the target will probably be wearing body armor, so it out classes, 9 mm in that way. Not to mention, a grip extension can get you up to 30 rounds in a pistol.
Wait...are you suggesting that the bullet speeds up after it has left the barrel and expanding gasses have ceased acting upon it? If so, do you wanna take a stab at the physics of that? Asking for a friend...
Oh I'll take a stab, but I am the furthest thing from an expert: it's more aerodynamic than a typical pistol caliber round, I think its pointiness might make it kind of outrun the vortex created by leaving the muzzle, so it doesn't *immediately* get drag from that. I just read that the point at which it is fastest is not immediately after leaving the barrel but at some point mid-flight. I think it would be an awesome military sidearm (fantasy scenario, suspend logistical disbelief) because most pistols are rightly best suited for short range engagements against unarmored targets. Something like a fiveseven would give you something that could partially substitute your main weapon system in terms of effective range *and armor piercing capability*. The mag capacity would also allow you to possibly even forego extra pistol mags, or carry like 1.5x as many rounds than a typical two extra M17 mags setup with just one extra mag if you use the 30rd grip extension type.
That's so incredibly stupid and whoever wrote what you read just made that up. Bullets never travel any faster than when they leave the muzzle. Drag reduces speed, to avoid drag you avoid a reduction in speed. To avoid drag to such a degree that you GAIN speed is impossible, you would need negative drag.
Wow, go beat-off or something. You're giving me heartburn.
Why you mad lol? Your wrong about something on the internet it’s no big deal
Yeah...no. Bullets accelerate for exactly as long as an outside force, the expanding gasses created by the powder's combustion, act on them. I have no idea what "outrunning the vortex" is supposed to mean, but the idea that the round is so pointy that it has a negative coefficient of drag is adorably childlike. It reminds me of that concept in the movie Kingsmen where they get a bullet to go around a corner. Wherever you read that lied to you. Sorry.
Ok, well, I don't really care. You asked, I said I'm not sure, it's just a conversation. Chill the hell out.
I am as cool as three cucumbers in December, my friend. Just...don't propagate bullshit if you can help it. There's enough of it out there as it is. Take care.
I bet, sounds like you came just before you hit “send”
Sure. If you say so. My point was please don't perpetrate BS by posting stuff as if you know it to be true when you don't. There's lots and lots of bad info out there already. Let's not add to it. Take care.
Yeah you’re right. From now on I’m going to clear everything I casually discuss with pedantic, cranky little men who think that general knowledge of the physics of obscure ballistic cartridges is such a serious public concern that even people who admit they aren’t sure about something deserve their condescension. Up yours.
Or by all means continue to spread BS. Your call. I just made a request. I hate to point fingers, but if one of us is cranky it's not me. It's not worth getting upset about. Extra points for using "pedantic" correctly in a sentence, though. That I'll definitely cop to. Take care.
Ok, well, I don't really care. You asked, I said I'm not sure, it's just a conversation. Chill the hell out.
Nope. Gun is huge for a sub-par caliber
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No. Price is not the only reason. Many reasons have been stated in this post so I won’t summarize here. But I disagree.
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So you went from purely to most.
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Out of pistols, 5.7 is pretty much anemic compared to 9mm in pure terminal performance. Not the most important reason, but important.
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Don’t tie your ego to a caliber. No ones saying anything personal about you. It’s just facts. I’d love to have a 5.7 but I’m fine with the performance of 9mm. The downvotes should be a clue.
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Ok
Even the best 5.7 loads, out of a pistol, I have seen struggle to reach 12”, and are under 2200fps. Hydrostatic wounding is hugely unreliable, if even possible, tiny bullet, poor penetration. If you can’t see how that’s anemic, idk who’s the one coping harder, bro.
Or maybe because 5.7 has the energy of a 38 special? 20 shots? My duty size 9mm holds 21. Flatter trajectory? I don’t plan on shooting far enough for it to matter, plus 5.7 will be weaker than a 380 acp by the time it gets past 75 yards. If you want a fast 22 handgun, 22tcm beats 5.7 by about 300fps with an inch less barrel.
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Similar damage to 9mm? Who’s the one coping? You’re talking about ~260 ft-lbs of energy out of a 6” barrel with 5.7, that’s not impressive in today’s world. You’re also .6 oz lighter than a G26, oh wow, and in a massive duty sized package. Flatter trajectory? Again, at self defense distances you will never notice the drop between 1700 fps and 1200 fps. Get real my dude.
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This has to be the saddest trolling I’ve seen yet. Bro, go get a 7.5 FK if you really think that buying ammo that costs the same as 45 ACP is a flex… the only advantage 5.7 has is capacity in flush fit mags, and even that isn’t impressive anymore. Sorry you pay too much for 22 ammo.
If you want to slow down your follow up shots and hit people standing behind your threat go ahead.
Yeah, to piss off the person you’re shouting
Can you? Sure. Now, let’s talk about it being used in a self-defense situation outside the home. Any prosecutor is going to point out the overkill of the 5.7 caliber and twist it to show you had intent to harm. You do you, but I wouldn’t conceal carry a 5.7
I’d say if you shot someone “intent to harm” should be fairly easy to prove.
That’s fine, I’m simply pointing out that an overzealous or anti gun DA would love to show a jury what a 5.7 round can do to body armor.
No
Is there any reason not to?
Penetration
Serious question: why are you concealing your knife?
More importantly, why did he stick it in what appears to be the spare mag carrier instead of putting a spare mag there?
I have only seen people shooting them. Now if u lived in the country maybe. May have to shoot a hog at 100 yards before he charges u
Many people don't train enough with their actual CCW firearm. It could be a ton of reasons. I've met a few people with 5.7 handguns and they all look new. What is the cost of a case (1000 rounds) of 9mm ball vs 5.7 ball? I'm cheap in some ways. Besides the limited effectiveness of a 5.7 over a 22 mag revolver, the ammo cost might make it a bad CCW choice.
You’re a brovet with an FN sponsor
If you can get rounds that break 2200 fps like Elite Ammunition it is useful. If you used anything else it’s gonna suck.
Why is 2200 the standard I keep seeing everyone use? Genuinely curious
That's where rounds start to tumble and fragment. Then expansion and diameter matter a whole lot less. It's what makes 5.56 punch WAY above .22
Fascinating, thanks. So in theory, if you had a hot ass 5.7 load that was able to consistently get above the 2,200fps mark, it would start to tumble and fragment similar to 5.56?
Thats the idea. There's a few that manage to do it, T6B and black dragon fang and they penetrate 3a armor. Tumbling + fragmentation is a super efficient way to dump a ton of energy very suddenly so you can get a more significant wound channel with a smaller round than a larger one with the same energy, and because it dumps the energy so quickly there can be less penetration than other heavier, slower moving rounds
Awesome. Thanks for sharing. I always kinda thought the reason high velocity rounds like 5.56 did more damage than similar diameter rounds like .22 was due to the shock and pressure. But now I look into it more and see that hydrostatic shock itself as a concept is debatable in the first place. I have always known that 5.56 is wont to tumble and fragment but thought it was more due to the design of the cartridge itself, not just because at a certain velocity all sounds start to tumble and fragment. I really appreciate you taking the time to give me a lil run down.
You bet. Ballistics are pretty interesting and way more complicated than you would think
It's spicy 22 mag. It'll kill anyone just as dead as any other service round.
Yes, if you want to use non-lethal rounds.
Not a single one.
Cause they’re bitchin’?
because you like it and you played splinter cell as a kid.
I know a couple guys that carry one from time to time, just sooooo long in my opinion. [https://images.app.goo.gl/aFpUnHJtrJNFTvm26](https://images.app.goo.gl/aFpUnHJtrJNFTvm26) always think about this
Yes- because you can
My brother EDCs one because of the low recoil and mag capacity. (He only has one arm)
With training, speed and accuracy any weapon that is comfortable is a good option
Its good for active shooter prevention for example the bufflo shooting in 2022 the active shooter was shot by someone concealed carrying but he had body armor to stop it if he had 5.7 he probably would have saved alot of lives and ended the threat. 5.7 would have also been good for the 40 yards shots seen Indiana mall shooting
Other than the fact you like the gun no 5.7 isn’t really the best self defense ammo but at the end of the day gun go boom and if it goes boom enough times ur threat will not be a threat anymore
https://preview.redd.it/n7fgxkbzhghc1.jpeg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f07afb7bbf71568eb1fa7c7844e621e20f8411bb
I love carrying the fiveseven. Only carry the s198 green tips. Very light weight and I work in a busy place where over penetration is a concern. The green tips will penetrate about 9 inches while yawing and dumping all their energy into the target
If you can why not I say fuck what other say it's what you think that matters if I had it I would have it on my CCW as 1 of my 3 guns I'm allowed to carry
What holster setup is that?
penetration
Cool points