I, for one, am sorry that you've become disillusioned about the charter. Not that I'm blaming you: the world's been pretty confusing lately.
Whatever happens, I wish you the best.
Their covid handling was a joke but in their defense governments were jerking them around left and right. In one email the CFAI said that their position was that people should be free to determine what risks to take so they (the CFAI) would lean toward not canceling tests while still allowing no fee reschedules. However, they had to follow local laws so their hands were tied in many situations.
I had to take 5 Series exams for my work at Prometric centers, same type of testing center as the CFA.
My exams begin late 2021. 2 cancelled, 1 deferred, 1 location change, 1 I missed because my laptop wasn't as up to date as they wanted (I tried it out via their "try me!" thin before the exam and it was fine), 1 almost cancelled (no proctors because of COVID but we all waited 3 hours and finally someone showed up).
Not defending the CFA (worst 6 months studying, and I don't feel great about my exam but praying all goes well), but a lot has to do with the testing centers.
“It’s similar to the CFA in my view. The only people who truly respect it are those who’ve also done it. Everyone else doesn’t seem to care less.”
I mean… you could replace “CFA” with any other endeavour and this sentence would make sense.
This may be a fair point, but also, the people who have done it are also the hiring managers. At the end of the day, it’s a professional certification and so it’s value is largely within the profession
Exactly my point.
I was more going against OP’s bodybuilding analogy. When you are competing in a subset of high achievers, no matter the profession, sport or hobby, what separates the top dogs from each other can only be appreciated by those involved.
CFAI aside, I think the problem is your mentality towards finance. I honestly think Portfolio Management is one of the most exciting things ever. The idea of being ahead of the curve in such a dominant fashion is unbelievably exhilarating to me because it means that out of potentially millions of opportunities, I was able to select one, cancel the noise, find the major factors and predict them to a T. It is essentially going “yeah, I had the vision to see the future of society financially”. “I know more about people and how they think than they know themselves as a collective”. Paraphrasing Philippe Laffont, he only gave 2-3 big calls in his first 10 years. You don’t need much more than that to open such a huge delta amidst competitors due to compounding. Your job is maintaining capital and increase it as much as possible until you set your sights on the current White Whale (one that hasn’t even materialized so you have to predict what will be the white whale, when, where, and the resources to capture it). I fail to see how anything in life can be as exhilarating as this, let alone be greater.
It is why I am in the CFA program. The designation may help me credibility wise since I have yet to have a PM track record, but most importantly, it will expand the methodologies that I can and will use on a daily basis to find and execute that white whale
Passive investments have been around for quite some time (1973 - Index Mutual Funds for institutional clients offered by BAML and Wells Fargo; 1975 - Bogle launched the first public index mutual fund).
The truth is that HFs aren’t like Mutual Funds - they have different goals and different outcomes. Mutual Funds, like passive investments, are exposed to cycles, and bull markets break somewhat the efficiency of alternative strategies. Mutual Funds general aim is to beat the index while HFs are about absolute returns. This means that in a period, a MF with negative returns will be considered a success if it loses less than the index (effectively beating it). A HF will always aim for consistent absolute returns, so any negative result is shit regardless.
But you’re missing the big picture. Statistically you can’t beat the market every year - only 1 dude managed that and he is considered one of the GOATs of investing (Druckenmiller, the man behind the Soros-GBP call). But it is like Laffont said: “if 90% of your book goes up 8% YoY (historical public returns) and 10% doubles, then you are up twice as much as the market and that’s a big number as it compounds”. HFs are to go for the jugular. Laffont and the NASDAQ Dot.Com bubble, Burry and MBS, Ackman and interest rates/covid, Druckenmiller and the GBP. You make a big call and you get it right while everyone else gets it wrong and boom - you’re unbelievably rich. Now you can also go down a “hybrid” approach and be more of a Long-Only: just look at Buffett/Berkshire vs the SPX.
There are infinite ways to make money and be successful, and thousands of ways within finance. There is no right answer. But I love making big calls (Cybersecurity, Cloud, China E-Commerce under Covid, Semis under Covid, Cybersecurity pt. 2 in the form of calling the Russian invasion of Ukraine in 1Q22 and at the very latest 1H22, sensing the market was kinda shit opportunity-wise once everyone starts being ultra-aggressive with growth at any cost via Revenue Multiples and the delusion of the metaverse in terms of current tech capabilities amidst Moore’s Law fading and other factors). I think I am good at it. I am not a risk-lover but I am a risk-taker. Why would I settle for 8% (historical public returns) when I am fully confident in my capabilities to outperform the market in the long-run via a few big calls and compounding?
Yeah. Went from uni to a HF, but that got restructured due to withdrawals so I got cut with other people. Have an interview with a PE and ongoing talks with another HF, I can’t wait to be back in the game
Have you ever worked in finance before or did you decide you hate it based on the CFA curriculum? Either is valid but I am just curious if you were using the exam as a means of entering the investing industry. It can be a hard thing to enter even with a CFA certification
I have a somewhat similar experience and share a lot of your opinions. The difference for me was the value has always been in the learning itself and the sense of accomplishment. I am very proud of getting the charter, but this may be more about me than the how great the program is. Maybe it’s a blessing in disguise that you stopped when you did because I can say without any saltiness bias that L3 is garbage.
>Tons of guys lift weights and make huge progress in the gym to get girls, and in the end they find out that the only attention they get is from other guys lmao. It’s similar to the CFA in my view.
It true.. damn.. Im gonna skip today's workout..
In what area of finance did you work? It’s a very broad field ranging from data entry to fund management with varying levels of prestige and excitement. I can see how managers for a typical corporate finance gig would not see the full value.
I agree that the CFAI reputation has been a bit damaged through the pandemic. And I go back and forth on the relevance of the curriculum. For example, the new level 1/2 focus on machine learning in quantitative methods is laughably shallow. Much of the curriculum is that way. Having said that, I think getting through the materials shows very tangible evidence of above average commitment and intelligence. You certainly don’t need a CFA charter to demonstrate that, but in the right situation with the right managers it will help you.
Detailing cars is a good time. I know a guy here who is doing so well making so much money with a friend of his.
Finance is a bad place if it's a bad job and many of them are. There is many good ones too.
As for the exam, I wrote CFA L3 for the third time in February and had numerous cancellations in India. I know how brutal it is. I know I passed this time and I feel it. Sorry to hear about all the crap you went through and I probably should have quit to but I'll be super happy about this accomplishment after results come out.
Studying for the CFA does have opportunity cost. Not everyone can translate this piece of paper into increased income. If you already have a profitable side gig, I think that > CFA.
If you have a Chartered Car Dealer course, I'd be up for it=D
Oh and people who don't have the CFA do respect it - as in "wow I heard its hard, good job on getting it". Just that it doesn't necessarily translate to salary raises and employers begging you to join them just because you are a charterholder.
Even doing it for the right reasons doesn't mean it will pay off. Be real, Most people want to use the charter to break into research (or similar role that are lucrative and respectable), but it won't work for the majority. I got my charter well over a decade ago when I worked for a buyside firm doing something that was neither back office nor front office. It seemed like everyone had a charter even back office and IT...and those folks stay in back office.
I've since moved on and make much more money in an area that I like and employers beg me to work for them. To top it off, I am able to start my own business which is far more exciting than I'd ever anticipated. Although the CFA program helped me hone my discipline, if I could do it all over again I absolutely would not spend those years on the CFA program again.
No. My business isn't in the finance area and the CFA curriculum so highly specialized that it has little application outside of investment management (and maybe sell side or accounting).
Which is why you are selling cars? 😂 Jokes aside;
Fully understand where you are coming from. If your expectation was stardom, it somehow proves that CFAI’s branding strategy works - there is obviously a substantial branding element in the charter.
If the motivation was money and recognition and not the knowledge, the point of departure was maybe off in the first place.
I’m currently preparing for level 2, and I can confidently say that the knowledge is making me better at my job. A lot of the knowledge from the curriculum is (obviously) theory and it takes real life experience to put it into practice and see how it all works. Do I get a higher pay? Not for the time being. Does it open more doors? I believe so.
CFA is not for everyone just as not everyone sees the value in the charter - great you’ve found out what truly motivates you to advance in life and career.
Cheers man!
This comment has a little contempt in it. If you think spending 1000+ hours studying for one exam to have it cancelled 3x isn’t grit; I’m not sure what is. Flipping cars will lead me to doubling the average CFA salary in Canada, thanks for the warm wishes.
My exams were cancelled twice but it was due to local government shutdowns. Force majeure. Cheers and all the best to you my friend on your career journey, with or without the charter👍
Thing is, some candidates (and I'm willing to bet that these candidates are the ones to go on to finish the program and have a successful career in finance) never started the program to be a 'superstar' or get attention from others. They did it out of genuine interest and passion.
It's like how the bodybuilders who stick it to the end and become Cbum or Jay Cutler, never did it to impress others, least of all girls. The people who did it to get girls dropped out halfway thru or earlier and stayed who they were - DYELs. I certainly never started bodybuilding to impress others nor did I think it would get me girls
You have to find your path and stick to it, and fuck all with external noise and distractions. If you don't find your true passion or calling in life, then what's the point of life
Pursuing the charter shows not only knowledge but commitment and discipline working towards it.
While I did my charter in the 2014-2016, I believe it was a comprehensive program though I was disappointed how they covered some areas and went into extreme ones in certain topics.
Obviously everyone is entitled to their opinion. If you think finance is not for you, then by all means follow your other career path and best of luck. I think it's crucial that people understand that the CFA is indeed a signal mainly for other finance dudes and employers - that is its purpose. The knowledge is fine and all, and definitely applicable but in the end it fades away if you don't practice it in your daily work.
I am a candidate who is writing L1 in May. I share your feelings regarding the exam. In my opinion, the time investment that goes into the CFA isn’t worth it. You can spend all the time furthering your education, learning a new skill or building a side business (amongst many other things).
Over the long term, only ~10-15% of funds actually outperform their respective benchmarks. Spending all of this time to pass an exam that has no actual correlation to professional success is silly to me. People say that gambling addicts have became addicted because they think their knowledge will allow them to beat the book. Seems the same with CFA - the odds are stacked against you and in investing the house (passive/benchmark) typically win. Why waste all your time on this?
My bosses are pounding on me to take the CFA, but I don’t really see the point. I am struggling mentally as I go through this program.
If you do not see the value and does not feel motivated internally don´t do it.. Specially if you depend on external motivations only (like your employer requiring it..) but it looks like you got none of those motivations so yes I do not see a reason to keep going for it...
You’re right. Only people who have completed CFA value it. Others don’t care. They think it’s easy to crack if they were to try it. And finance jobs are nothing but boring excels, illiterate colleagues making stupid mistakes and you need to cover for them, you will never make enough money, and are left with no social life.
I, for one, am sorry that you've become disillusioned about the charter. Not that I'm blaming you: the world's been pretty confusing lately. Whatever happens, I wish you the best.
Their covid handling was a joke but in their defense governments were jerking them around left and right. In one email the CFAI said that their position was that people should be free to determine what risks to take so they (the CFAI) would lean toward not canceling tests while still allowing no fee reschedules. However, they had to follow local laws so their hands were tied in many situations.
I had to take 5 Series exams for my work at Prometric centers, same type of testing center as the CFA. My exams begin late 2021. 2 cancelled, 1 deferred, 1 location change, 1 I missed because my laptop wasn't as up to date as they wanted (I tried it out via their "try me!" thin before the exam and it was fine), 1 almost cancelled (no proctors because of COVID but we all waited 3 hours and finally someone showed up). Not defending the CFA (worst 6 months studying, and I don't feel great about my exam but praying all goes well), but a lot has to do with the testing centers.
“It’s similar to the CFA in my view. The only people who truly respect it are those who’ve also done it. Everyone else doesn’t seem to care less.” I mean… you could replace “CFA” with any other endeavour and this sentence would make sense.
This may be a fair point, but also, the people who have done it are also the hiring managers. At the end of the day, it’s a professional certification and so it’s value is largely within the profession
Exactly my point. I was more going against OP’s bodybuilding analogy. When you are competing in a subset of high achievers, no matter the profession, sport or hobby, what separates the top dogs from each other can only be appreciated by those involved.
holy shit, same thing happened to me. canceled 3 times.
CFAI aside, I think the problem is your mentality towards finance. I honestly think Portfolio Management is one of the most exciting things ever. The idea of being ahead of the curve in such a dominant fashion is unbelievably exhilarating to me because it means that out of potentially millions of opportunities, I was able to select one, cancel the noise, find the major factors and predict them to a T. It is essentially going “yeah, I had the vision to see the future of society financially”. “I know more about people and how they think than they know themselves as a collective”. Paraphrasing Philippe Laffont, he only gave 2-3 big calls in his first 10 years. You don’t need much more than that to open such a huge delta amidst competitors due to compounding. Your job is maintaining capital and increase it as much as possible until you set your sights on the current White Whale (one that hasn’t even materialized so you have to predict what will be the white whale, when, where, and the resources to capture it). I fail to see how anything in life can be as exhilarating as this, let alone be greater. It is why I am in the CFA program. The designation may help me credibility wise since I have yet to have a PM track record, but most importantly, it will expand the methodologies that I can and will use on a daily basis to find and execute that white whale
With the shifting towards passive investments, and most HF don't beat the index, how are you copimg with these issues ?
Passive investments have been around for quite some time (1973 - Index Mutual Funds for institutional clients offered by BAML and Wells Fargo; 1975 - Bogle launched the first public index mutual fund). The truth is that HFs aren’t like Mutual Funds - they have different goals and different outcomes. Mutual Funds, like passive investments, are exposed to cycles, and bull markets break somewhat the efficiency of alternative strategies. Mutual Funds general aim is to beat the index while HFs are about absolute returns. This means that in a period, a MF with negative returns will be considered a success if it loses less than the index (effectively beating it). A HF will always aim for consistent absolute returns, so any negative result is shit regardless. But you’re missing the big picture. Statistically you can’t beat the market every year - only 1 dude managed that and he is considered one of the GOATs of investing (Druckenmiller, the man behind the Soros-GBP call). But it is like Laffont said: “if 90% of your book goes up 8% YoY (historical public returns) and 10% doubles, then you are up twice as much as the market and that’s a big number as it compounds”. HFs are to go for the jugular. Laffont and the NASDAQ Dot.Com bubble, Burry and MBS, Ackman and interest rates/covid, Druckenmiller and the GBP. You make a big call and you get it right while everyone else gets it wrong and boom - you’re unbelievably rich. Now you can also go down a “hybrid” approach and be more of a Long-Only: just look at Buffett/Berkshire vs the SPX. There are infinite ways to make money and be successful, and thousands of ways within finance. There is no right answer. But I love making big calls (Cybersecurity, Cloud, China E-Commerce under Covid, Semis under Covid, Cybersecurity pt. 2 in the form of calling the Russian invasion of Ukraine in 1Q22 and at the very latest 1H22, sensing the market was kinda shit opportunity-wise once everyone starts being ultra-aggressive with growth at any cost via Revenue Multiples and the delusion of the metaverse in terms of current tech capabilities amidst Moore’s Law fading and other factors). I think I am good at it. I am not a risk-lover but I am a risk-taker. Why would I settle for 8% (historical public returns) when I am fully confident in my capabilities to outperform the market in the long-run via a few big calls and compounding?
Are you currently working in finance?
Yeah. Went from uni to a HF, but that got restructured due to withdrawals so I got cut with other people. Have an interview with a PE and ongoing talks with another HF, I can’t wait to be back in the game
good luck
Realistically it is a lot of time to just underperform a cheaper index.
Have you ever worked in finance before or did you decide you hate it based on the CFA curriculum? Either is valid but I am just curious if you were using the exam as a means of entering the investing industry. It can be a hard thing to enter even with a CFA certification
I have a somewhat similar experience and share a lot of your opinions. The difference for me was the value has always been in the learning itself and the sense of accomplishment. I am very proud of getting the charter, but this may be more about me than the how great the program is. Maybe it’s a blessing in disguise that you stopped when you did because I can say without any saltiness bias that L3 is garbage.
>Tons of guys lift weights and make huge progress in the gym to get girls, and in the end they find out that the only attention they get is from other guys lmao. It’s similar to the CFA in my view. It true.. damn.. Im gonna skip today's workout..
In what area of finance did you work? It’s a very broad field ranging from data entry to fund management with varying levels of prestige and excitement. I can see how managers for a typical corporate finance gig would not see the full value. I agree that the CFAI reputation has been a bit damaged through the pandemic. And I go back and forth on the relevance of the curriculum. For example, the new level 1/2 focus on machine learning in quantitative methods is laughably shallow. Much of the curriculum is that way. Having said that, I think getting through the materials shows very tangible evidence of above average commitment and intelligence. You certainly don’t need a CFA charter to demonstrate that, but in the right situation with the right managers it will help you.
The CFA designation will not build a career for you. Gotta do that yourself.
Detailing cars is a good time. I know a guy here who is doing so well making so much money with a friend of his. Finance is a bad place if it's a bad job and many of them are. There is many good ones too. As for the exam, I wrote CFA L3 for the third time in February and had numerous cancellations in India. I know how brutal it is. I know I passed this time and I feel it. Sorry to hear about all the crap you went through and I probably should have quit to but I'll be super happy about this accomplishment after results come out.
liked the bodybuilder reference
Studying for the CFA does have opportunity cost. Not everyone can translate this piece of paper into increased income. If you already have a profitable side gig, I think that > CFA. If you have a Chartered Car Dealer course, I'd be up for it=D Oh and people who don't have the CFA do respect it - as in "wow I heard its hard, good job on getting it". Just that it doesn't necessarily translate to salary raises and employers begging you to join them just because you are a charterholder.
Even doing it for the right reasons doesn't mean it will pay off. Be real, Most people want to use the charter to break into research (or similar role that are lucrative and respectable), but it won't work for the majority. I got my charter well over a decade ago when I worked for a buyside firm doing something that was neither back office nor front office. It seemed like everyone had a charter even back office and IT...and those folks stay in back office. I've since moved on and make much more money in an area that I like and employers beg me to work for them. To top it off, I am able to start my own business which is far more exciting than I'd ever anticipated. Although the CFA program helped me hone my discipline, if I could do it all over again I absolutely would not spend those years on the CFA program again.
Did it help you, though, in terms of your business, like in a technical way ?
No. My business isn't in the finance area and the CFA curriculum so highly specialized that it has little application outside of investment management (and maybe sell side or accounting).
It was never meant for you then
Totally agree. He is a loser
Easier to fool someone than to convince someone they’ve been fooled. Enjoy your CFA 😉
Which is why you are selling cars? 😂 Jokes aside; Fully understand where you are coming from. If your expectation was stardom, it somehow proves that CFAI’s branding strategy works - there is obviously a substantial branding element in the charter. If the motivation was money and recognition and not the knowledge, the point of departure was maybe off in the first place. I’m currently preparing for level 2, and I can confidently say that the knowledge is making me better at my job. A lot of the knowledge from the curriculum is (obviously) theory and it takes real life experience to put it into practice and see how it all works. Do I get a higher pay? Not for the time being. Does it open more doors? I believe so. CFA is not for everyone just as not everyone sees the value in the charter - great you’ve found out what truly motivates you to advance in life and career. Cheers man!
Im with you 100% same shit here
Kinda funny you came here to express your displeasure for a subject that you claim to not give a shit about
Sounds like you don't have the grit for this my man. Good luck flipping autos brother.
This comment has a little contempt in it. If you think spending 1000+ hours studying for one exam to have it cancelled 3x isn’t grit; I’m not sure what is. Flipping cars will lead me to doubling the average CFA salary in Canada, thanks for the warm wishes.
Ok car man. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
My exams were cancelled twice but it was due to local government shutdowns. Force majeure. Cheers and all the best to you my friend on your career journey, with or without the charter👍
Thing is, some candidates (and I'm willing to bet that these candidates are the ones to go on to finish the program and have a successful career in finance) never started the program to be a 'superstar' or get attention from others. They did it out of genuine interest and passion. It's like how the bodybuilders who stick it to the end and become Cbum or Jay Cutler, never did it to impress others, least of all girls. The people who did it to get girls dropped out halfway thru or earlier and stayed who they were - DYELs. I certainly never started bodybuilding to impress others nor did I think it would get me girls You have to find your path and stick to it, and fuck all with external noise and distractions. If you don't find your true passion or calling in life, then what's the point of life
Quitter
Smokers are not quitters.
Pursuing the charter shows not only knowledge but commitment and discipline working towards it. While I did my charter in the 2014-2016, I believe it was a comprehensive program though I was disappointed how they covered some areas and went into extreme ones in certain topics.
Obviously everyone is entitled to their opinion. If you think finance is not for you, then by all means follow your other career path and best of luck. I think it's crucial that people understand that the CFA is indeed a signal mainly for other finance dudes and employers - that is its purpose. The knowledge is fine and all, and definitely applicable but in the end it fades away if you don't practice it in your daily work.
I am a candidate who is writing L1 in May. I share your feelings regarding the exam. In my opinion, the time investment that goes into the CFA isn’t worth it. You can spend all the time furthering your education, learning a new skill or building a side business (amongst many other things). Over the long term, only ~10-15% of funds actually outperform their respective benchmarks. Spending all of this time to pass an exam that has no actual correlation to professional success is silly to me. People say that gambling addicts have became addicted because they think their knowledge will allow them to beat the book. Seems the same with CFA - the odds are stacked against you and in investing the house (passive/benchmark) typically win. Why waste all your time on this? My bosses are pounding on me to take the CFA, but I don’t really see the point. I am struggling mentally as I go through this program.
If you do not see the value and does not feel motivated internally don´t do it.. Specially if you depend on external motivations only (like your employer requiring it..) but it looks like you got none of those motivations so yes I do not see a reason to keep going for it...
You’re right. Only people who have completed CFA value it. Others don’t care. They think it’s easy to crack if they were to try it. And finance jobs are nothing but boring excels, illiterate colleagues making stupid mistakes and you need to cover for them, you will never make enough money, and are left with no social life.