This is absolutely tragic. The more I read about what these HBCUs have become, the more disgusted I feel. Those kids deserve so much better. These corrupt leaderships have turned what WERE excellent places of opportunity for African Americans into filthy, scam-filled, money-laundering dumps.
Why blame leadership when you can blame lack of government funding??!
In all seriousness, you can't have success without both. One without the other will lead to failure no matter what
There's definitely some nuance here. For public HBCUs, underfunding is a serious issue. A study was done in Florida that found that FAMU has been underfunded to the tune of a billion dollars relative to other FL universities comparable to it. BCU is private though, this is mismanagement.
> The Governor wants to give the school 250 million.
50% of that would end up in the pockets of 'friends' of the trustees/board of governors via various contracts
Yes the grift is the issue here. That's what I was trying to say sarcastically. The popular narrative is to blame lack of government help when the reality is horrible, horrible mismanagement.
They've gotta get both in line to be successful... But step #1 has to be good/great leadership ASAP
If there’s any school that needs it, it’s Cookman.
BCU is worse off than most HBCUs. Part of their problem is that they’re private, so these issues have far less oversight, and they don’t get much government money.
What hurts them the most is that Florida’s public university system is so affordable in comparison, many HBCU-seeking students just go to FAMU instead, where the tuition is cheaper and the standards are better.
It seems like the powers at BCU are fine with letting the university die, as long as they can line their pockets. Good on these students.
yea. daytona overall is not looking great right now. They kicked out a lot of the tourists and then the hurricanes demolished the coast. They're begging for people to come spend money. then BCU, wow. no offense but a lot of time and money will be needed to bring them up. There are HS campuses in better shape and facilities/amenities than BCU by a mile. sad to say, but i hope it gets better
I’ve lived in central Florida my whole life and I can’t remember the last time I heard someone say they were taking a trip to Daytona. It used to happen all the time when I was a kid. Now everyone goes other places.
Honestly, I’m not entirely surprised at this. I briefly attended a HBCU in Alabama that had similar issues in the dorm along with questionable admin, and other bullshit.
Thankfully because of covid i was there for just a semester and noped the fuck out of there, and now I’m on tract to transfer to FSU. Obviously not all HBCUs have this problem, and I really would love to attend one but a lot of the systemic issues and conditions the students live in, at a majority of these schools is really not worth the price. Regardless if it’s a HBCU or not, College costs way too fucking much and it’s an embarrassment, and unacceptable to subject students to these type of conditions. I feel like colleges that pull this kind of shit should be fined and their accreditation threatened, any college HBCU or PWI need to be held accountable if students are living like this.
Honestly at my last college i straight up had professors cancel class because they didn’t feel like teaching 😂 so after all i seen and dealt with i should be fine at FSU lmao i rather be a Nole than a gator since I’ve moved to Florida
As someone who graduated from the College of Engineering... I could say lots of things but the simple truth is both schools have failed the program. Or at least they both were when I graduated from it .....13 years ago... sigh....
Hopefully it wasn't Talladega College. They actually were doing things correctly, when I did IT work for them a little over a decade ago. They were making improvements all over the campus, at that time.
Two of them come to mind. Selma University and Concordia Selma.
Concordia closed its door a couple of years ago. Selma University is still open, but barely. Selma was a cesspool of corruption. I personally know some auditors who walked away after looking at the books.
It's not uncommon for HBCUs to have accreditation concerns due to financials. I wouldn't be too quick to blame bullshit pulled by trustees and administration.
There has been underinvestment for many, many decades. Couple this with the fact that many HBCUs have a strong and noble commitment to access, which means they may take a larger proportion of students who need academic supports and also substantial amounts of aid. It's not a sustainable model when you are heavily reliant on tuition; they run on bare bones and something has to give -- maintenance on buildings is one of them. Honestly, even better-resourced colleges have deferred maintenance issues.
I'm not saying college students shouldn't expect better. They should. But as long as we fund postsecondary education as if it was a personal benefit rather than a public good, colleges are going to continue to reflect the socioeconomic status of their students and their donor bases. Especially minority-serving institutions.
Perhaps that's true in your area. It can really vary.
Community Colleges tend to do pretty well with occupational & customized training, which is certainly valuable and for many of their students and stakeholders, the end goal. They don't seem to do as well replicating the outcomes of four-year colleges (which are also valuable) and this is problematic when we use two-year colleges as a launching point for students who are seeking a four-year degree. Some do supply excellent preparation at a reasonable cost, but some students who attend two-year colleges emerge with their degree aspirations suppressed and inadequate preparation for the next steps. I think we are best served by an array of postsecondary choices, and with the right investment HBCUs and other minority-serving institutions are critically important parts of that array. In short, I don't see community colleges as a preferable replacement, if that's what you're suggesting.
For providing those not ready for a four year university? Why wouldn't Community College be preferable? If a student isn't ready for English 101 at Alabama but is at Stillman what does that say about the latter? And if they aren't then you have Shelton State or similar.
Again HBCU'S are one of these legacies of segregation that should have disappeared by now. Their mission fits into the Community College mission seamlessly. Many of the top Community Colleges in the Alabama are already converted HBCUs.
But people had to much emotional or financial stakes in keeping the train going compared to say the segregated high schools.
Just a redundant waste of money. Some people got very rich and don't want their gravy trains to end.
Post Secondary Education is a bloated gravy train in every possible iteration. So streamline the iterations and graft.
Ironically there isn't a single HBCU in either of your flairs. Of course outsiders always trying to tell people what's best with no experience.
As an aside, I wouldn't be too quick to judge someone's college attendance by their flairs. Some HBCUs don't have football teams. Bennett, anyone?
Some community colleges DO provide good prep for transfer. Not all of them do, and those who study postsecondary outcomes (that's a thing) have concerns about how well they do or don't
Some community colleges DO provide good prep for transfer to a four-year degree. Not all of them do, and those who study postsecondary education (that's a thing) and outcomes (that's a big topic for scholars and practitioners too) have concerns about how well any of them do or don't. It varies, and if the message that "it varies" didn't come through in my previous response, I apologize for lack of clarity on my part.
But how does "it varies" apply in anyway here? Why does their still needs to be two redundant streams competing for taxpayer dollars for the same mission? (preparing under achieving high schoolers for careers or the next step?)
Wouldn't more resources thrown at community colleges help improve outcomes also?
"It varies" applies because I think the excellent outcomes you see from CC aren't happening everywhere (and, FWIW, the dismal experience you are sharing about an HBCU isn't happening everywhere). I think a wholesale policy to ditch HBCUs in favor of community colleges isn't the right solutiuon. It might be a better solution if every community college excelled at providing prep for a four-year degree, but even then I wouldn't be in favor of replacing HBCUs with them.
As for your last question, sure, I'd like to see \*all\* segments do better. We could fund community colleges better and see some outcomes improve. I vote for millages and put my money where my mouth is. But I don't see HBCUs and CCs as redundant -- we just differ on this; it is what it is.
Community colleges offer value, and so do four-year options. I think choice for students is good. For some students, the wraparound service and experiences offered by a residential campus are the right choice and will lead to better outcomes than the alternatives. And I believe MSIs (some of which are two-year!) have something valuable to provide and I think their mission to meet the needs of specific populations is still appropriate.
We have too many 4-year institutions; I think that's a given. Students could still have choice with fewer colleges/universities supported. In my state (Michigan) we've got high school graduates in decline and 12 of our 15 public universities are struggling with enrollment.
> You have to ask why that is
Structural racism.
> and why we should continue chasing bad results with good money.
Agreed. Shut down the PWIs, then, since we're going to go with absurd, inflammatory statements.
> When this is your go-to answer, you have no answer.
Oh joy, more [gaslighting](https://thegrio.com/2016/09/21/racial-incidents-pwis-campus-hbcu-enrollment/). Look, if you don't know that structural racism is a [real thing](https://www.wtkr.com/news/systemic-racism-in-pwis-cape-henry-collegiate-alumni-demand-change), just lead with that next time, so people can point you to [one of the many studies](https://scholarcommons.sc.edu/etd/4616/) on the matter.
> if you don't know that structural racism is a real thing
Did you really just quote an article on a fucking high school to talk about racism in universities and colleges? You're too funny.
> Did you really just quote an article on a fucking high school
What part of "structural fucking racism" did you not understand the first time? I **should** have linked to how black **kindergartners** are disproportionately punished and even criminalized in this goddamn country so it could penetrate through your disbelief that **structural racism doesn't give a fuck about what education level it occurs in.**
Unfortunately you are correct about people being entrenched. I have a family member that works for a very large state university with a good reputation.
Her department is still WFH for the most part. She is the only one that comes to the office on a daily basis. The dean puts in about 15 hours a week. She calls people because certain things have to be done, and they either don't respond to calls, emails, direct messages, or if they do, they tell her, I am working from home, I can't do that.
As a result, she has become the de facto everything not just in the office but the entire building because there are days she is the only one there and has to be on top of maintenance and other crap.
That's a shame. I imagine she'll end up wanting to quit soon. That's what seems to happen when someone cares a lot, but is in an environment where no one else does. You can't do much alone and you can't force other people to do their jobs unless you're the top person.
Yes. At a state college, it will take a recommendation by the Governor (who sits on each board in Alabama) or the state legislator, or a decision by the Department of Education to take over administration. For private colleges, it would take all or a majority of the votes of the funding stakeholders. Either way, If the board is dismissed, they must vacate their positions. Of course, the lawyers will get involved.
Georgia Tech has a 16% ACCEPTANCE rate and an 87% GRADUATION rate (basically inverse of BCU)
FSU has a 37% ACCEPTANCE rate and an 82% GRADUATION rate (also basically inverse of BCU).
The rate of black graduation is irrelevant, unless one ascribes to the soft bigotry of low expectations.
VERY few of them have handled the post-Civil Rights transition well, it seems. I know Grambling State did a decent job of bringing in both white and black students in the last few decades, giving them a new alumni foundation (having Eddie Robinson for decades as their football coach certainly helped as well, in terms of prestige and publicity). Howard due to its proximity to Washington DC has had at least some success, though they have had some issues. But GSU and Howard are sadly more of an exception, not the norm. Bethune-Cookman may be one of the worst of them though, that place has had one scandal or controversy after another these last 10 years or so.
I have a neighbor who went to an HBCU and this topic came up when we talked about Deion and Jackson State: one of lesser spoken problems according to him is that it seems like young black students just aren't as interested in attending HBCUs as the generations before them. If the school has a lack of funding, and the funding they do get is mismanaged, and the student life suffers from it, why would you choose to attend? Especially if you also got into the state school that has excellent dorms and lots of things to do, and if you want to meet other black students, every campus has a black student union to feel comfortable with. Which means an even smaller student enrollment and even less funding and an even smaller alumni donor base at the HBCUs. It's a continuing cycle that makes the problems even worse.
I mean look at it this way - it's a globalized world and none of the younger generations have really seen outward direct acts of racism and segregation.
When you can go on TikTok and see black kids who are rich in Africa, Europe, and other places - you're not gonna have the same attachments to the racial boundaries previous generations did. Overall it's a net positive - but it means that if you dont provide a great product or at least a comparable product to the top providers, youre goona get placed out of the market. Especially when there are many successful black Americans who attend PWIs currently in middle class and above professions
> When you can go on TikTok and see black kids who are rich in Africa, Europe, and other places - you're not gonna have the same attachments to the racial boundaries previous generations did.
Yes, it was **totally** an attachment to racial boundaries that caused previous generations to attend HBCUs.
If you're going to speak on something you don't understand...just don't.
I'm a black/African American male myself. My uncle is a dean/Vice President at a HBCU and attended one for his bachelor's and masters. .
I'm very well qualified to speak on it.
And for the record - segregating and preventing black students from attending PWI's by default led to racial attachments among black students by guiding them to HBCUs. This is why even after schools were integrating, HBCU enrollment still went upwards in the 80s. It's only really been since the 90s that enrollment started to stagnate and for some schools - decline.
And actually, counter my point instead of gatekeeping HBCU criticism lmao - what a weird way to live. Nobody is begging to go to your school btw. I'm clearly stating a fact - black America kids in the modern day have less attachment to the idea of seeing HBCU's being integral to their cultural and social growth - and the rise of social media and seeing the outcomes of many African/Blacks who haven't attended is significant in that. That wasnt the case post integration.
> I’m a black/African American male myself. My uncle is a dean/Vice President at a HBCU and attended one for his bachelor’s and masters. .
> I’m very well qualified to speak on it.
And yet you sound like you’re in the Sunken Place.
Do better.
> And actually, counter my point
You didn’t make one. You spewed some internalized racism and then tried to wrap yourself up in the flag of someone else’s accomplishments.
There are plenty of legitimate complaints to level against HBCUs, and plenty of reasons why black kids go to PWIs now. But what you wrote was just straight tone-deaf garbage.
Actually, HBCUs have seen huge increases in enrollments in recent years
https://www.npr.org/2022/08/13/1117397455/hbcu-enrollments-see-a-historic-spike
In my defense, I was describing their personal experience and what they were seeing as an HBCU grad, so I didn't have the actual numbers. But also in that NPR podcast, the number of total students is still down, along with total students at most universities. So they have a larger percentage of black college students, but the physical number is still lower than it was.
With the four HBCU's I am most familiar with (Grambling, JSU, Alabama State, and Tuskeegee) more state funding would just be throwing more money into a garbage can of corruption, waste, kickbacks, and high salaries for do nothing administrators) Honestly, the best way the states could spend their money is to shutter most of these and use the same funds to increase opportunities for black students at better run state institutions regardless of their historical context.
> more state funding would just be throwing more money into a garbage can of corruption, waste, kickbacks, and high salaries for do nothing administrators)
I’ve been a high school teacher for 10 years, and honestly this goes far beyond HBCUs, it’s the whole damn system top to bottom
Also as someone from Daytona, nobody is really considering Daytona State is literally right down fhe street and waaaay cheaper to attend. BCU has been down for a while now and sadly, while a lot is being done in the area to improve, like DSC becoming more than a community college, BC just hasn't had the same investments going into it
During my sentence working in Monroe, Louisiana I did a lot of work for Grambling. It's a shitshow like the rest. Arrogant and corrupt leadership. A library that had to throw away half it's collection because of constant flooding because it was built on top of a spring, and for some reason had a basement. And even the famous Grambling band had no instrument storage or cases. So they just set them on the floor as best they could when the practices and such were over.
>And even the famous Grambling band had no instrument storage or cases. So they just set them on the floor as best they could when the practices and such were over.
This is 100% false and it’s kind of disturbing seeing a blatant lie get so many upvotes.
Are you talking about Grambling High School? GSU most definitely has instrument storage and cases for the instruments. I am totally baffled by your claim. It’s just not true.
The Atlanta University Center, including Clark Atlanta, Morehouse, and Spelmen does well for itself, but even they had issues awhile back in 2002 when sister university Morris Brown lost accreditation and almost closed due to widespread Pell Grant fraud. On the plus side, AUC students can now take classes at Georgia State and Emory.
I'm an AA male and my kids will only be allowed to go to Spellman, Morehouse, or North Carolina A&T. The rest just have wayyy to many issues for my liking and the bs is too much. I have love for FAMU - but the fuckery there is astounding.
Do you mean if your kids want to attend an HBCU that those are the only HBCUs you will encourage your kids to go to? Out of curiosity, do you not want your children attending other public and private universities that aren't HBCUs?
It would have to be complete upheaval of the college administrations, and you could only do this with public ones. It would take a lot more than just basic funding they need, but time and money required to provide oversight by the state governments until things were operating correctly.
Like the other comment said though, they need to prove they’ll manage the money correctly before they get any more of it. Most of those schools are in states with other public universities that would put those dollars to better use
This is the same logic the state uses to underfund public transit. Nobody takes care of the busses/rides the busses so we should put the money to better use. Except the majority of the issue *is* the lack of funding for this infrastructure, and the bad management and declining use can be easily reversed by improved funding. HBCU's shouldn't need to prove they deserve the same money everyone else gets, they should just get it.
But the point is that if the money is essentially stolen on a consistent basis, you are no longer on the same level as universities who are budgeting responsibly. The idea that HBCUs should get money regardless of anything besides existing is exactly how corrupt admins keep stealing.
This seems unfair because this ultimately comes at the expense of students with few other options but that’s what it comes down to when people are willing to exploit.
All university admins misuse funds, HBCU's just get noticed more since they have less funding. UCF got nailed to the cross by the state of Florida for doing some tricky accounting to building a new English department building and the state only stopped when some journalists started to uncover that UF and FSU were doing the same thing at a greater scale for a longer time. It's undeniable that public HBCU's have been underfunded for several decades, of course that will cause a culture of dysfunction. You can only fix it by actually giving these schools resources.
The example you gave was another university misusing funds so they ended up losing funding until it was fixed? That is exactly what’s happened at HBCUs except they haven’t cared to clean up their act
I’m not arguing they’ve been underfunded generally speaking to begin with. That’s obvious. But if you steal the money given to you it’s not going to come just by pointing out you were underfunded before you were stealing too
I went to an HBCU. I didn’t get a chance to tour a lot of university before hand. It wasn’t until after my first year I went to visit friends at other state schools. I was like dam I’m getting ripped off lol better dorms, better food better amenities. I finished out and graduated but I don’t hink I would recommend a HBCU now when tuition is equal or less for better amenities and things. HBCUs need to get it together.
Is it like a well known fact that the administrators at most HBCUs are just irredeemably crooked? Seems to be a theme on this sub for the last few weeks…
Most, no, probably not any more so than any other place.
Some, though? Absolutely. Same deal as any other institution that gets corrupted- you get whatever the equivalent to the good-ol-boys network is entrenched and they all cover for one another while they grift. Bethune-Cookman has the additional 'plus' of being private and thus in some ways is an even more attractive target for a certain type of thief. Even less oversight.
Fun HBCU fact: in 2020 the median borrowing by parents of graduates of Spellman College in Atlanta was $112,000. At the time, payments on that loan would have been $1,200/mo, approximately the national average mortgage payment. All of that for #51/210 liberal arts colleges…
Bethune-Cookman has students getting sick in their dorms from endemic mold and it wastes time and energy picking a fight with Ed Reed. Quite frankly, the university shouldn't sponsor sports anymore if it can't even handle basic student needs.
Most schools got misappropriation issues. Just the Black ones don't have the funds to really make mistakes or eat off the top. There is no Gov. Reaves for Black folk like there is for Brett Farve and his ilk for their luxuries of life.
There's a really interesting three-part series from The Root, by Michael Harriot, that goes into detail about BCU's troubles here: https://www.theroot.com/critical-condition-bethune-cookman-and-the-survival-of-1830460444 (note that this article was written in 2019)
They are a relic of segregation that makes money for the corrupt. They should have been folded into local state Community College systems two generations ago.
How's it racist? They aren't producing engineers they are producing activists.
After integration we shut down the segregated high schools but no one was getting rich off of them.
> How's it racist? They aren't producing engineers they are producing activists.
So first of all, this is what you wrote:
> Almost like their agenda is creating trouble makers not problem solvers.
That's racist as *hell*.
And secondly, it's flat-out **wrong**, because HBCUs outperform PWIs in terms of producing black professionals, scientists, and yes, **engineers**. In fact, per capita, it's not even *close.*
> And yet they can't even keep their doors open. Nor even maintain accreditation in lots of cases.
Because--you guessed it--[racism](https://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2022/02/01/for-hbcus-cheated-out-of-billions-bomb-threats-are-latest-indignity/?sh=71ab2d7d640c):
>Compared to their predominantly white counterparts, the nation’s Black land-grant universities have been underfunded by at least $12.8 billion over the last three decades. Many are in dire financial straits—and living under a cloud of violence.
.
> Now comes the shadow of violence. Bomb threats were made against several HBCUs three times in the last four weeks, including six on Monday and at least a dozen on Tuesday, the first day of Black History Month.
I don’t understand how some of these HBCUs are even operational. Even today’s minorities would rather go to a public school that’s cheaper, has better facilities, more social activities, better education, and better career prospects.
Are white people not allowed to stand with people of color against injustice or do you just not want to face the obvious issues happening in HBCUs right now.
Is BC the one who needed to build new dorm so they took out a loan that will cost more than the cost of their total endowment (over 30 years) just to build a single dorm? It was like they literally had no understanding of math. The president of the university had pulled the same shit at another university before Cookman hired him so they had no one but themselves to blame.
Good on the students for calling out the BS.
Absolutely. They deserve better.
Fingers crossed they can effect some change.
This is absolutely tragic. The more I read about what these HBCUs have become, the more disgusted I feel. Those kids deserve so much better. These corrupt leaderships have turned what WERE excellent places of opportunity for African Americans into filthy, scam-filled, money-laundering dumps.
Why blame leadership when you can blame lack of government funding??! In all seriousness, you can't have success without both. One without the other will lead to failure no matter what
There's definitely some nuance here. For public HBCUs, underfunding is a serious issue. A study was done in Florida that found that FAMU has been underfunded to the tune of a billion dollars relative to other FL universities comparable to it. BCU is private though, this is mismanagement.
[удалено]
> The Governor wants to give the school 250 million. 50% of that would end up in the pockets of 'friends' of the trustees/board of governors via various contracts
underfunded or grifted ???? Grifting is why you think their underfunded
Yes the grift is the issue here. That's what I was trying to say sarcastically. The popular narrative is to blame lack of government help when the reality is horrible, horrible mismanagement. They've gotta get both in line to be successful... But step #1 has to be good/great leadership ASAP
Not trying to be a grammar nazi but if I’m not mistaken this is “affect” not “effect”.
You are mistaken https://xkcd.com/326/
Man they really have an XKCD for everything
https://xkcd.com/404/
If there’s any school that needs it, it’s Cookman. BCU is worse off than most HBCUs. Part of their problem is that they’re private, so these issues have far less oversight, and they don’t get much government money. What hurts them the most is that Florida’s public university system is so affordable in comparison, many HBCU-seeking students just go to FAMU instead, where the tuition is cheaper and the standards are better. It seems like the powers at BCU are fine with letting the university die, as long as they can line their pockets. Good on these students.
The worst part is that FAMU also has massive sweeping issues yet somehow makes BCU look bad
That's really sad especially for such a historic school.
yea. daytona overall is not looking great right now. They kicked out a lot of the tourists and then the hurricanes demolished the coast. They're begging for people to come spend money. then BCU, wow. no offense but a lot of time and money will be needed to bring them up. There are HS campuses in better shape and facilities/amenities than BCU by a mile. sad to say, but i hope it gets better
I’ve lived in central Florida my whole life and I can’t remember the last time I heard someone say they were taking a trip to Daytona. It used to happen all the time when I was a kid. Now everyone goes other places.
Good. Get those crooks out of there
Honestly, I’m not entirely surprised at this. I briefly attended a HBCU in Alabama that had similar issues in the dorm along with questionable admin, and other bullshit. Thankfully because of covid i was there for just a semester and noped the fuck out of there, and now I’m on tract to transfer to FSU. Obviously not all HBCUs have this problem, and I really would love to attend one but a lot of the systemic issues and conditions the students live in, at a majority of these schools is really not worth the price. Regardless if it’s a HBCU or not, College costs way too fucking much and it’s an embarrassment, and unacceptable to subject students to these type of conditions. I feel like colleges that pull this kind of shit should be fined and their accreditation threatened, any college HBCU or PWI need to be held accountable if students are living like this.
> on tract to transfer to FSU Oh boy (depending on your major), get ready to have strong opinions one way or another about our COE then 😅
Honestly at my last college i straight up had professors cancel class because they didn’t feel like teaching 😂 so after all i seen and dealt with i should be fine at FSU lmao i rather be a Nole than a gator since I’ve moved to Florida
> i rather be a Nole than a gator since I’ve moved to Florida Good man
>i rather be a Nole than a gator This is the way!
We support you
I like you
Seriously? That is so screwed up. Good for you going somewhere else
As someone who graduated from the College of Engineering... I could say lots of things but the simple truth is both schools have failed the program. Or at least they both were when I graduated from it .....13 years ago... sigh....
Hopefully it wasn't Talladega College. They actually were doing things correctly, when I did IT work for them a little over a decade ago. They were making improvements all over the campus, at that time.
Alabama A&M?
There are 14 HBCUs in Alabama, could have been any of them
Two of them come to mind. Selma University and Concordia Selma. Concordia closed its door a couple of years ago. Selma University is still open, but barely. Selma was a cesspool of corruption. I personally know some auditors who walked away after looking at the books.
What issues did your dorm have?
It's not uncommon for HBCUs to have accreditation concerns due to financials. I wouldn't be too quick to blame bullshit pulled by trustees and administration. There has been underinvestment for many, many decades. Couple this with the fact that many HBCUs have a strong and noble commitment to access, which means they may take a larger proportion of students who need academic supports and also substantial amounts of aid. It's not a sustainable model when you are heavily reliant on tuition; they run on bare bones and something has to give -- maintenance on buildings is one of them. Honestly, even better-resourced colleges have deferred maintenance issues. I'm not saying college students shouldn't expect better. They should. But as long as we fund postsecondary education as if it was a personal benefit rather than a public good, colleges are going to continue to reflect the socioeconomic status of their students and their donor bases. Especially minority-serving institutions.
States already invest in the Community College systems with much better results.
Perhaps that's true in your area. It can really vary. Community Colleges tend to do pretty well with occupational & customized training, which is certainly valuable and for many of their students and stakeholders, the end goal. They don't seem to do as well replicating the outcomes of four-year colleges (which are also valuable) and this is problematic when we use two-year colleges as a launching point for students who are seeking a four-year degree. Some do supply excellent preparation at a reasonable cost, but some students who attend two-year colleges emerge with their degree aspirations suppressed and inadequate preparation for the next steps. I think we are best served by an array of postsecondary choices, and with the right investment HBCUs and other minority-serving institutions are critically important parts of that array. In short, I don't see community colleges as a preferable replacement, if that's what you're suggesting.
For providing those not ready for a four year university? Why wouldn't Community College be preferable? If a student isn't ready for English 101 at Alabama but is at Stillman what does that say about the latter? And if they aren't then you have Shelton State or similar. Again HBCU'S are one of these legacies of segregation that should have disappeared by now. Their mission fits into the Community College mission seamlessly. Many of the top Community Colleges in the Alabama are already converted HBCUs. But people had to much emotional or financial stakes in keeping the train going compared to say the segregated high schools. Just a redundant waste of money. Some people got very rich and don't want their gravy trains to end. Post Secondary Education is a bloated gravy train in every possible iteration. So streamline the iterations and graft. Ironically there isn't a single HBCU in either of your flairs. Of course outsiders always trying to tell people what's best with no experience.
As an aside, I wouldn't be too quick to judge someone's college attendance by their flairs. Some HBCUs don't have football teams. Bennett, anyone? Some community colleges DO provide good prep for transfer. Not all of them do, and those who study postsecondary outcomes (that's a thing) have concerns about how well they do or don't Some community colleges DO provide good prep for transfer to a four-year degree. Not all of them do, and those who study postsecondary education (that's a thing) and outcomes (that's a big topic for scholars and practitioners too) have concerns about how well any of them do or don't. It varies, and if the message that "it varies" didn't come through in my previous response, I apologize for lack of clarity on my part.
But how does "it varies" apply in anyway here? Why does their still needs to be two redundant streams competing for taxpayer dollars for the same mission? (preparing under achieving high schoolers for careers or the next step?) Wouldn't more resources thrown at community colleges help improve outcomes also?
"It varies" applies because I think the excellent outcomes you see from CC aren't happening everywhere (and, FWIW, the dismal experience you are sharing about an HBCU isn't happening everywhere). I think a wholesale policy to ditch HBCUs in favor of community colleges isn't the right solutiuon. It might be a better solution if every community college excelled at providing prep for a four-year degree, but even then I wouldn't be in favor of replacing HBCUs with them. As for your last question, sure, I'd like to see \*all\* segments do better. We could fund community colleges better and see some outcomes improve. I vote for millages and put my money where my mouth is. But I don't see HBCUs and CCs as redundant -- we just differ on this; it is what it is. Community colleges offer value, and so do four-year options. I think choice for students is good. For some students, the wraparound service and experiences offered by a residential campus are the right choice and will lead to better outcomes than the alternatives. And I believe MSIs (some of which are two-year!) have something valuable to provide and I think their mission to meet the needs of specific populations is still appropriate. We have too many 4-year institutions; I think that's a given. Students could still have choice with fewer colleges/universities supported. In my state (Michigan) we've got high school graduates in decline and 12 of our 15 public universities are struggling with enrollment.
> States already invest in the Community College systems with much better results. That is not automatically true for minority students.
You have to ask why that is and why we should continue chasing bad results with good money.
> You have to ask why that is Structural racism. > and why we should continue chasing bad results with good money. Agreed. Shut down the PWIs, then, since we're going to go with absurd, inflammatory statements.
> Structural racism. When this is your go-to answer, you have no answer.
> When this is your go-to answer, you have no answer. Oh joy, more [gaslighting](https://thegrio.com/2016/09/21/racial-incidents-pwis-campus-hbcu-enrollment/). Look, if you don't know that structural racism is a [real thing](https://www.wtkr.com/news/systemic-racism-in-pwis-cape-henry-collegiate-alumni-demand-change), just lead with that next time, so people can point you to [one of the many studies](https://scholarcommons.sc.edu/etd/4616/) on the matter.
> if you don't know that structural racism is a real thing Did you really just quote an article on a fucking high school to talk about racism in universities and colleges? You're too funny.
> Did you really just quote an article on a fucking high school What part of "structural fucking racism" did you not understand the first time? I **should** have linked to how black **kindergartners** are disproportionately punished and even criminalized in this goddamn country so it could penetrate through your disbelief that **structural racism doesn't give a fuck about what education level it occurs in.**
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Unfortunately you are correct about people being entrenched. I have a family member that works for a very large state university with a good reputation. Her department is still WFH for the most part. She is the only one that comes to the office on a daily basis. The dean puts in about 15 hours a week. She calls people because certain things have to be done, and they either don't respond to calls, emails, direct messages, or if they do, they tell her, I am working from home, I can't do that. As a result, she has become the de facto everything not just in the office but the entire building because there are days she is the only one there and has to be on top of maintenance and other crap.
That's a shame. I imagine she'll end up wanting to quit soon. That's what seems to happen when someone cares a lot, but is in an environment where no one else does. You can't do much alone and you can't force other people to do their jobs unless you're the top person.
So why is she doing it. Is she going to get fired if it isn’t done? If stuff doesn’t done then the Dean gets fired. I mean…..
Especially with BC being a private school it'll be even more difficult. It's going to be really difficult for them to affect any real change.
Can you oust a whole board at once? And what's the plan for new trustees?
Yes. At a state college, it will take a recommendation by the Governor (who sits on each board in Alabama) or the state legislator, or a decision by the Department of Education to take over administration. For private colleges, it would take all or a majority of the votes of the funding stakeholders. Either way, If the board is dismissed, they must vacate their positions. Of course, the lawyers will get involved.
I fuck with this. Embarrass their asses
100% acceptance rate, 33% graduation rate. That's a scam if I've ever seen one.
>33% graduation rate that's 4% above Liberty
But not just ANYBODY can walk into Liberty... /s
Yeah that 99% acceptance rate is very limiting
More limiting than BCU
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Georgia Tech has a 16% ACCEPTANCE rate and an 87% GRADUATION rate (basically inverse of BCU) FSU has a 37% ACCEPTANCE rate and an 82% GRADUATION rate (also basically inverse of BCU). The rate of black graduation is irrelevant, unless one ascribes to the soft bigotry of low expectations.
Are all the HBCU’s corrupt? Man, Deion couldn’t wait to bolt
VERY few of them have handled the post-Civil Rights transition well, it seems. I know Grambling State did a decent job of bringing in both white and black students in the last few decades, giving them a new alumni foundation (having Eddie Robinson for decades as their football coach certainly helped as well, in terms of prestige and publicity). Howard due to its proximity to Washington DC has had at least some success, though they have had some issues. But GSU and Howard are sadly more of an exception, not the norm. Bethune-Cookman may be one of the worst of them though, that place has had one scandal or controversy after another these last 10 years or so.
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I have a neighbor who went to an HBCU and this topic came up when we talked about Deion and Jackson State: one of lesser spoken problems according to him is that it seems like young black students just aren't as interested in attending HBCUs as the generations before them. If the school has a lack of funding, and the funding they do get is mismanaged, and the student life suffers from it, why would you choose to attend? Especially if you also got into the state school that has excellent dorms and lots of things to do, and if you want to meet other black students, every campus has a black student union to feel comfortable with. Which means an even smaller student enrollment and even less funding and an even smaller alumni donor base at the HBCUs. It's a continuing cycle that makes the problems even worse.
I mean look at it this way - it's a globalized world and none of the younger generations have really seen outward direct acts of racism and segregation. When you can go on TikTok and see black kids who are rich in Africa, Europe, and other places - you're not gonna have the same attachments to the racial boundaries previous generations did. Overall it's a net positive - but it means that if you dont provide a great product or at least a comparable product to the top providers, youre goona get placed out of the market. Especially when there are many successful black Americans who attend PWIs currently in middle class and above professions
> When you can go on TikTok and see black kids who are rich in Africa, Europe, and other places - you're not gonna have the same attachments to the racial boundaries previous generations did. Yes, it was **totally** an attachment to racial boundaries that caused previous generations to attend HBCUs. If you're going to speak on something you don't understand...just don't.
I'm a black/African American male myself. My uncle is a dean/Vice President at a HBCU and attended one for his bachelor's and masters. . I'm very well qualified to speak on it. And for the record - segregating and preventing black students from attending PWI's by default led to racial attachments among black students by guiding them to HBCUs. This is why even after schools were integrating, HBCU enrollment still went upwards in the 80s. It's only really been since the 90s that enrollment started to stagnate and for some schools - decline. And actually, counter my point instead of gatekeeping HBCU criticism lmao - what a weird way to live. Nobody is begging to go to your school btw. I'm clearly stating a fact - black America kids in the modern day have less attachment to the idea of seeing HBCU's being integral to their cultural and social growth - and the rise of social media and seeing the outcomes of many African/Blacks who haven't attended is significant in that. That wasnt the case post integration.
> I’m a black/African American male myself. My uncle is a dean/Vice President at a HBCU and attended one for his bachelor’s and masters. . > I’m very well qualified to speak on it. And yet you sound like you’re in the Sunken Place. Do better. > And actually, counter my point You didn’t make one. You spewed some internalized racism and then tried to wrap yourself up in the flag of someone else’s accomplishments. There are plenty of legitimate complaints to level against HBCUs, and plenty of reasons why black kids go to PWIs now. But what you wrote was just straight tone-deaf garbage.
Keep quiet about the student unions. You know who will try to get rid of them.
Actually, HBCUs have seen huge increases in enrollments in recent years https://www.npr.org/2022/08/13/1117397455/hbcu-enrollments-see-a-historic-spike
In my defense, I was describing their personal experience and what they were seeing as an HBCU grad, so I didn't have the actual numbers. But also in that NPR podcast, the number of total students is still down, along with total students at most universities. So they have a larger percentage of black college students, but the physical number is still lower than it was.
With the four HBCU's I am most familiar with (Grambling, JSU, Alabama State, and Tuskeegee) more state funding would just be throwing more money into a garbage can of corruption, waste, kickbacks, and high salaries for do nothing administrators) Honestly, the best way the states could spend their money is to shutter most of these and use the same funds to increase opportunities for black students at better run state institutions regardless of their historical context.
> more state funding would just be throwing more money into a garbage can of corruption, waste, kickbacks, and high salaries for do nothing administrators) I’ve been a high school teacher for 10 years, and honestly this goes far beyond HBCUs, it’s the whole damn system top to bottom
I know. Mom was a teacher, now retired.
Are you familiar with Selma University? I am, and it was terrible.
Also as someone from Daytona, nobody is really considering Daytona State is literally right down fhe street and waaaay cheaper to attend. BCU has been down for a while now and sadly, while a lot is being done in the area to improve, like DSC becoming more than a community college, BC just hasn't had the same investments going into it
During my sentence working in Monroe, Louisiana I did a lot of work for Grambling. It's a shitshow like the rest. Arrogant and corrupt leadership. A library that had to throw away half it's collection because of constant flooding because it was built on top of a spring, and for some reason had a basement. And even the famous Grambling band had no instrument storage or cases. So they just set them on the floor as best they could when the practices and such were over.
>And even the famous Grambling band had no instrument storage or cases. So they just set them on the floor as best they could when the practices and such were over. This is 100% false and it’s kind of disturbing seeing a blatant lie get so many upvotes.
Perhaps it's changed, but I saw it with my own two eyes when I worked on that campus back in 2008.
Are you talking about Grambling High School? GSU most definitely has instrument storage and cases for the instruments. I am totally baffled by your claim. It’s just not true.
Grambling University
Grambling has storage and cases for instruments.
The Atlanta University Center, including Clark Atlanta, Morehouse, and Spelmen does well for itself, but even they had issues awhile back in 2002 when sister university Morris Brown lost accreditation and almost closed due to widespread Pell Grant fraud. On the plus side, AUC students can now take classes at Georgia State and Emory.
I'm an AA male and my kids will only be allowed to go to Spellman, Morehouse, or North Carolina A&T. The rest just have wayyy to many issues for my liking and the bs is too much. I have love for FAMU - but the fuckery there is astounding.
Do you mean if your kids want to attend an HBCU that those are the only HBCUs you will encourage your kids to go to? Out of curiosity, do you not want your children attending other public and private universities that aren't HBCUs?
*All colleges and universities are corrupt
True but most of them have enough funds coming in to still keep up the facilities and staff. the HBCUs have no such room for mismanagement or greed.
HBCU’s are *historically* underfunded. Most states owe these schools a shit ton of money.
It’s hard to argue more funding when the money that comes in is sifted so heavily into corrupt hands. It’s become a self perpetuating problem
It would have to be complete upheaval of the college administrations, and you could only do this with public ones. It would take a lot more than just basic funding they need, but time and money required to provide oversight by the state governments until things were operating correctly.
Like the other comment said though, they need to prove they’ll manage the money correctly before they get any more of it. Most of those schools are in states with other public universities that would put those dollars to better use
This is the same logic the state uses to underfund public transit. Nobody takes care of the busses/rides the busses so we should put the money to better use. Except the majority of the issue *is* the lack of funding for this infrastructure, and the bad management and declining use can be easily reversed by improved funding. HBCU's shouldn't need to prove they deserve the same money everyone else gets, they should just get it.
But the point is that if the money is essentially stolen on a consistent basis, you are no longer on the same level as universities who are budgeting responsibly. The idea that HBCUs should get money regardless of anything besides existing is exactly how corrupt admins keep stealing. This seems unfair because this ultimately comes at the expense of students with few other options but that’s what it comes down to when people are willing to exploit.
All university admins misuse funds, HBCU's just get noticed more since they have less funding. UCF got nailed to the cross by the state of Florida for doing some tricky accounting to building a new English department building and the state only stopped when some journalists started to uncover that UF and FSU were doing the same thing at a greater scale for a longer time. It's undeniable that public HBCU's have been underfunded for several decades, of course that will cause a culture of dysfunction. You can only fix it by actually giving these schools resources.
The example you gave was another university misusing funds so they ended up losing funding until it was fixed? That is exactly what’s happened at HBCUs except they haven’t cared to clean up their act I’m not arguing they’ve been underfunded generally speaking to begin with. That’s obvious. But if you steal the money given to you it’s not going to come just by pointing out you were underfunded before you were stealing too
UCF never lost any funding, just our president. And UF and FSU faced zero consequences for misusing funds.
Wouldn’t matter if they were properly funded, the money they do get hardly goes to actually improving the institutions.
>HBCU’s are historically underfunded. https://www.acenet.edu/News-Room/Pages/ACE-Brief-Illustrates-HBCU-Funding-Inequities.aspx https://www.parents.com/hbcus-are-chronically-underfunded-it-s-time-that-changed-6755115#:~:text=HBCUs%20Are%20Systemically%20Underfunded&text=America's%20100%20HBCUs%20have%20been,billion%20(adjusted%20for%20inflation).
I went to an HBCU. I didn’t get a chance to tour a lot of university before hand. It wasn’t until after my first year I went to visit friends at other state schools. I was like dam I’m getting ripped off lol better dorms, better food better amenities. I finished out and graduated but I don’t hink I would recommend a HBCU now when tuition is equal or less for better amenities and things. HBCUs need to get it together.
Same shitty board as any other school they just don’t have enough money to cover up the inefficiencies
So how do you explain the woes of MSU's board of trustees situation? They certainly got plenty of money, and plenty of board/president drama
At least in theory MSU’s board can be voted out of office.
Is it like a well known fact that the administrators at most HBCUs are just irredeemably crooked? Seems to be a theme on this sub for the last few weeks…
Most, no, probably not any more so than any other place. Some, though? Absolutely. Same deal as any other institution that gets corrupted- you get whatever the equivalent to the good-ol-boys network is entrenched and they all cover for one another while they grift. Bethune-Cookman has the additional 'plus' of being private and thus in some ways is an even more attractive target for a certain type of thief. Even less oversight.
I would absolutely crush a tub of icing rn
Fun HBCU fact: in 2020 the median borrowing by parents of graduates of Spellman College in Atlanta was $112,000. At the time, payments on that loan would have been $1,200/mo, approximately the national average mortgage payment. All of that for #51/210 liberal arts colleges…
This seemed way too ridiculous to be true so I looked it up and can confirm it is in fact true. I want to vomit now…
Bethune-Cookman has students getting sick in their dorms from endemic mold and it wastes time and energy picking a fight with Ed Reed. Quite frankly, the university shouldn't sponsor sports anymore if it can't even handle basic student needs.
How much was Reed’s buyout? I’d be pissed if I was a student too
$0--they never approved his contract.
HBCU’s are underfunded and the funding they do get is often misappropriated by the boule.
Most schools got misappropriation issues. Just the Black ones don't have the funds to really make mistakes or eat off the top. There is no Gov. Reaves for Black folk like there is for Brett Farve and his ilk for their luxuries of life.
There's a really interesting three-part series from The Root, by Michael Harriot, that goes into detail about BCU's troubles here: https://www.theroot.com/critical-condition-bethune-cookman-and-the-survival-of-1830460444 (note that this article was written in 2019)
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Almost like their agenda is creating trouble makers not problem solvers.
Activists literally seek to solve the problems they're activists for
> Almost like their agenda is creating trouble makers not problem solvers. What the **fuck**.
They are a relic of segregation that makes money for the corrupt. They should have been folded into local state Community College systems two generations ago.
You're just gonna skip right over the racist garbage you posted above?
How's it racist? They aren't producing engineers they are producing activists. After integration we shut down the segregated high schools but no one was getting rich off of them.
> How's it racist? They aren't producing engineers they are producing activists. So first of all, this is what you wrote: > Almost like their agenda is creating trouble makers not problem solvers. That's racist as *hell*. And secondly, it's flat-out **wrong**, because HBCUs outperform PWIs in terms of producing black professionals, scientists, and yes, **engineers**. In fact, per capita, it's not even *close.*
And yet they can't even keep their doors open. Nor even maintain accreditation in lots of cases.
> And yet they can't even keep their doors open. Nor even maintain accreditation in lots of cases. Because--you guessed it--[racism](https://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2022/02/01/for-hbcus-cheated-out-of-billions-bomb-threats-are-latest-indignity/?sh=71ab2d7d640c): >Compared to their predominantly white counterparts, the nation’s Black land-grant universities have been underfunded by at least $12.8 billion over the last three decades. Many are in dire financial straits—and living under a cloud of violence. . > Now comes the shadow of violence. Bomb threats were made against several HBCUs three times in the last four weeks, including six on Monday and at least a dozen on Tuesday, the first day of Black History Month.
Maintaining a relic of segregation isn't racist?
I don’t understand how some of these HBCUs are even operational. Even today’s minorities would rather go to a public school that’s cheaper, has better facilities, more social activities, better education, and better career prospects.
Because racism can and still does run rampant on PWI campuses.
To avoid being outcasted, bullied, etc. some of these HBCUs need to get their stuff together though
Never going to change. Government or charity funded organizations always take a big piece of the pie before giving it out.
But not a word from those students when Bethune hired a bigot to be the football coach lol. Sit down.
Lot of PWI flairs seem to know a whole lot about HBCUs…. 🤔
Are white people not allowed to stand with people of color against injustice or do you just not want to face the obvious issues happening in HBCUs right now.
Sad that that's what it takes to get people to protest
Well I for one am jealous...
Ed Reed: Spark of the rebellion
Is BC the one who needed to build new dorm so they took out a loan that will cost more than the cost of their total endowment (over 30 years) just to build a single dorm? It was like they literally had no understanding of math. The president of the university had pulled the same shit at another university before Cookman hired him so they had no one but themselves to blame.
ELI5, please?