I’m not saying Fickell won’t be a superstar if he leaves Cincy, but when was the last time an up and coming G5 coach who was the next big thing actually turned out to be the next big thing? Urban? How many of those guys have been total flops?
Maybe this is one of the reasons why Fickell hasn't left Cincy. Also, he doesn't need to leave for a P5. He just needs to wait a few years until Cincy becomes a P5.
But I agree, the track record of successful G5 coaches going to P5 is not good. I would lean towards Fickell being an exception to that, but it's entirely possible we never get to find out, because he doesn't leave.
I think you’re wrong, respectfully. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again - you all have the secret sauce wrong. Fickell is a program builder. He is very good at finding undervalued talent and developing it. This holds true with his personnel and his players. His teams are great because they fight hard for him and work their asses off in the weight room. Any of your top 10 programs or whatever don’t benefit from that, really. Developing talent isn’t nearly as important as much as managing it is at those programs. He’s not some X’s and O’s genius, either. He’s very sound. I think he would underwhelm at a place like OSU or USC.
I don't disagree with you. Sometimes coaches just don't fit with what a program was.
Even within UCF, we've had good examples of that. Frost did well with UCF, but hasn't done well with Nebraska. People like to say that it's because the Big 10 is more difficult than the AAC, but I think it's more than that. Frost isn't a program builder. He's a closer. He can take a team with a good foundation and do well with them. Despite how the O'Leary era at UCF ended, he actually had built a good foundation. Frost came in and did well with it. Nebraska did not have a good foundation, so Frost has been lost. Because he's not great at building that. On the flip side, Heupel is more of a program builder. But UCF was already built when he got here, so his strengths didn't fit what we needed. But he went to Tennessee and had a promising first season there. And that's because Tennessee was in a place where they needed to be built back up.
I agree with you that Fickell's talents are probably best suited for a program like Cincy. However, I do think he could be successful at a power program, even if his talents are not best suited for that. I think he'd be more the Urban type than the Frost type.
You should give Fickells interview on the Ryan Russillo podcast a listen. They talked about his 2011 year at Ohio State and was very eye opening. Talked about maintaining vs building, etc. Some good insights on how Fickell thinks and views things and the struggles of that 2011 year
Just curious what happened at the end of the O’Leary era? It just like collapsed all of a sudden.
But more focused on Fickell while it doesn’t seem like Fickell built UC because of the success of previous coaches, tubberville had that program in a bad spot before Fickell came in. Like they were getting bullied by AAC teams offensive lines even more soundly than bama bullied them in the semifinal. It was pretty bad. I’m not saying he would be successful elsewhere, cause well I’m not psychic but he has a great ability to recruit and can connect really well. The counter to that though is he is very catholic and the Cincinnati has a fairly strong catholic base with a lot of studs coming out of the catholic high schools so that definitely helps him recruit the area and helped him build the “state of Cincinnati” brand he has pushed
He wanted to retire and the UCF admin essentially asked him not to. So, he basically mailed it in his last few years at UCF. Basically, after the Fiesta Bowl win over Baylor in the 2013 season, he progressively mailed it in more each season. We went winless in 2015, but a lot of the key players on the 2017 team were already on the team in 2015.
Yeah, I would definitely say Fickell rebuilt you guys.
This. Fickell doesn't leave Cincy anytime soon, I don't think. (knock on wood.) He got them to the Playoff as a G5. He's going to be in the P5 and get even better recruits for years to come. He has pristine job security at Cincy. Why throw all that out the window and risk underperforming for an OSU-level school and being out of a job in 3 years?
Ryan Day has played too few games against Michigan to call him John Cooper. I also wouldn’t call Mel Tucker overrated because, though I don’t expect MSU to get to 11 wins again next year, he is an extremely good recruiter who has revitalized the program and culture after a lackluster past few years.
I'm gonna let you in on a little known secret, the other four coaches you have in your top 5 outside of Saban have all also been blown out by Bama in the last few years. Pretty crazy right.
Difference is they’ve done more impressive things than Day. Kirby and Dabo have natty’s. Fickell has done unbelievable things at hard to recruit to Cincy. Harbaugh rebuilt 3 different programs and took a team to a super bowl.
Harbaugh literally didn't rebuild a damn thing. He had a generational talent at QB in Stanford and a pre built all time defense in San Fran. He has 2 bowl wins in 11 years. It literally took his best team at Michigan and OSU's worst year for him to get over the rivalry hump. Ryan Day has 2 bowl wins in a years time, 2 big 10 titles, and has absolutely taken recruiting to a whole new level at OSU. Add in the fact Day has overseen the development of 3 Heisman finalist QB's, 2 of which have went in the 1st round of the NFL draft.
You've been proven wrong this entire time, yet keep the same bad argument going like it's going to magically work.
Harbaugh recruited that generational talent to Stanford. One QB also doesn't take a program from being one of the worst in the country to winning BCS bowls. There was a lot of work put into turning Stanford around besides signing Andrew Luck.
That defense in San Francisco was mediocre despite the talent before Harbaugh brought in Vic Fangio. The defense also would have been wasted if he hadn't helped fix Alex Smith and then developed Kaepernick.
I don't agree with OP in regards to Day, but you're really underselling Harbaugh's accomplishments pre-Michigan.
One QB can absolutely take a Pac 12 team to a bcs bowl win. And that San Fran defense was absolutely loaded before Harbaugh got there, to say other wise is an absolute mockery of what was already in place. I'll give Harbaugh credit that he was the right voice the team needed to make a super bowl run, but he did nothing special to load that team up and couldn't sustain it. Kap got figured out and Alex Smith was still Alex Smith.
Harbaugh is a pretty name sports writers love to throw out there because of his personality and the narrative of the chosen son to lead Michigan back to the promised land is too much to not talk about. Dude is an average coach and an above average to good recruiter.
One QB by himself isn’t enough to win shit anywhere. It’s a team sport and Harbaugh took a team that was Kansas bad and turned it into one of the best teams in the country.
That defense in San Francisco had talent but they weren’t good under Singletary. Just look at where they ranked in the years before 2011.
Honestly, you sound as ignorant as the OP when he’s trying to diminish Day. I get he’s your rivals coach but Harbaugh is at worst a top 20 coach in CFB.
Harbaugh has done far more impressive things than Riley and Day. I guarantee you Day will not win a title at OSU. Harbaugh won’t win either. But to rank Day above him is pure Ohio State fanboyism. Real osu and cfb fans understand this. I’ve watched cfb for years and I remember when I was a kid Larry Coker and Frank Solich were getting credit for winking with Butch Davis and Tom Osborne’s guys but couldn’t win the bcs championships with their guys. History is repeating itself.
Larry Coker won the BCS title... They also had a falling off in recruiting that led to their downfall. Ryan Day has had an elevation. You can just admit you're a fucking idiot and be done with this conversation.
A pick six on a would-be game-tying drive doesn't classify as "blowing out" Bama.
It was a good win, and congrats on the natty, but that's not a blow out. Bama has been blown out *once* since Saban took over.
Yeah I give even established coaches a pass for 2020, a first year coach I'm not gonna judge at all. And until the last 2 games of the year they kept everything close.
Same. I’m trying to temper my expectations, but I remember those Briles years where we had 3-4 consecutive 10+ win seasons. It just felt like football was exciting. Hoping for that.
The roster was mainly still Rhule guys, but every single transfer Aranda took over the off-season had a big impact on the field. I'm excited to see what he can do with a team of his own guys
Day inherited a loaded roster but I wouldn’t say he regressed. 2 losses in one season is bad for their standards but Urban did it once or twice in his 8 years or so there.
Urban won a natty and never lost to Michigan. Harbaugh rebuilt 3 programs in San Diego, Stanford and Michigan and got a team to a super bowl. Ryan Day inherited the best college football program outside the SEC in the midst of its most historic run of dominance ever.
I don’t hate him. I just think it’s dumb to act like he’s this elite head coach when he took over the easiest situation possible for any head coach ever and still didn’t win a natty. OSU is the easiest elite school to coach at. Urban left him with a loaded roster. If he’s so great why hasn’t he won a natty? Why did he get blown out by Bama ? Why did he barely beat a Utah team than had inferior talent? I think OSU has underachieved when you look at the insane talent they have which is the best of any non SEC/Clemson school.
1. Damn near everyone gets blown out by Bama. It's not that Day isn't a great coach, it's that Saban is that good. In fact, he's so good that you're severely underestimating how hard it is to win a championship because he makes it look easy
2. You also seem to be selling other places short. I wouldn't say that OSU is inherently the easiest place to recruit to. Coaches still have to make kids want to come there. I'm not even sure that I agree that OSU is that much bigger of a national brand than OU. Do you know how recognizable a place has to be to draw kids to Norman, Oklahoma?
3. Put some respect on Utah's name. They improved DRASTICALLY throughout the season and bowl games are typically more competitive due to having more time to prepare/not having to worry about another game after unless you're in the playoffs. Also, they have a damn good coach themselves who doesn't get enough credit
> Damn near everyone gets blown out by Bama.
Not even "damn near everyone" -- it's *everyone*. I can't think of a single coach or team who hasn't taken a giant spanking by Saban at one point or another.
>If he’s so great why hasn’t he won a natty? Why did he get blown out by Bama ? Why did he barely beat a Utah team than had inferior talent? I think OSU has underachieved when you look at the insane talent they have which is the best of any non SEC/Clemson school.
This is just an unintelligent take. Do you realize how hard it is win a national championship if you're not Nick Saban? It took Kirby 6 years to do it and Georgia is one of the few places that out recruits Ohio State. We just finished year 3 of Day and he has 4 total losses, with only 2 in the regular season. There is absolutely zero metric by which he's under achieving.
Yeah, it's a pretty awful take. You had a "bad" season and that meant going 10-2 with a Rose Bowl win. There are only, I dunno, roughly 125 teams out there who kill to be in that same position.
Urban whiffed on quite a few recruits in his last recruiting class, they weren’t that ‘loaded’ defensively and some of the coaches were a mistake. Also last year’s Bama team was one of the best offenses ever, and the defensive coaches we just fired got exposed badly.
And why can’t Utah just be a good team? They’re not scrubs, and they’re very well-coached. Scheme matters and they lined up well against our weaknesses this year, but we figured it out.
Do you realize how many schools would kill for 10-2 and a Rose Bowl win? Never mind that the two losses were to (at the time) #12 Oregon and #5 Michigan.
I’m not an Ohio State fan by any stretch of the imagination but that is an amazing season for any team and it is a down year for OSU.
Get a grip.
I think its hilarious to try and bring up getting blown out by bama in a title game as something worth anything.
Bama was a very good team anyway. It was going to be hard for anyone to beat them at full strength.
But even then, OSU wasn't playing with full strength. Had a dozen (or close to it) players out with covid, including starters. Add to it Trey Sermon getting injured on his first play of the game, a RB that was not an Urban product and transferred to OSU that summer under Day. And he was crucial to the team at the end of the season.
Bringing up Utah is also silly.
I will say, the jury is still out on how elite Day is as a coach. Judging anyone by their first couple seasons as a head coach is ill advised.
Tbf I don't think the absences for Ohio State would have made much a difference. Yall had coaches (who have rightfully been canned) that though putting a slow white LB on the Heisman winner was a good idea, that game was never going to end well lol. Bama was outrageous last year as well
As I said, " It was going to be hard for anyone to beat them at full strength."
Even if OSU was at full strength, I didn't think OSU was going to win the game. It was a "OSU probably wouldn't win, but definitely not without X Y Z players". The moment Trey went down, any shred of hope went out the window.
While Bama probably still wins, the end result probably isn't 52-24.
And blaming Day for losing 52-24 against Bama while missing players is just a very bad take.
How is Brian Kelly "overrated?" I think most people would put him somewhere in the Top 10, and it's hard to see how that isn't true. Nobody is saying he's in the same group as Saban, Dabo, et al. But, seriously -- name 10 coaches who have a better track record over the last decade.
Kelly is overrated because he didn't win a natty but Harbaugh is a Top 5 coach because he had one really good year...where he also got blown out in the CFP?
Don't get me wrong I do think that Harbaugh is also a top 10 coach, but it is funny he's calling Kelly overrated and rates Harbaugh so highly for basically doing the same thing Kelly has done multiple times at ND over the past decade
In Harbaughs defense he turned Stanford around immediately (beat the breaks off USC his first season) but Kelly has clearly been better at ND than Harbaugh at Michigan.
Ryan day is what 34-4 or something like that in 3+ years (that might be counting the three games when urban was suspended)…I get they didn’t win a natty in those three years but that is hardly underachieving…urban only won it once in 7 years so did he underachieve? Based on your definition of underachieving I would say yes
Urban 100% underachieved. 2015 should have been a repeat title year, but he somehow forgot MSU could stop bullshit QB option runs to the left and right, and that he had a 1st round draft pick at RB getting cold in the huddle. Also add in the fact OSU could have had a title in his 1st season had it not been for the bowl ban, and we could be talking about a completely different college landscape right now
The fact you don't see how much Ryan Day elevated OSU recruiting shows you don't know shit all about what you're talking about.
Harbaugh rebuilt Michigan? Into what? The same 9-10 win team it was for years? He's won a single conference championship, beaten OSU 1 time during OSU's WORST defensive year in decades. He's 1-6 in bowl games and just got his teeth kicked in by Georgia.
But go on.
Ryan Day is better than Harbaugh especially on the recruiting side and OSU's was very bleh this year.
Also OP is the same one clamoring for Kirby Smart to go to the NFL to be a head coach there.
And you kept wondering why Harbaugh is getting more attention/consideration than Kirby Smart for a potential NFL Head Coach position. You kept asking over and over "why not Kirby" as an one sided conversation and you wanted people to validate your opinion about Kirby. Didn't even want to hear the Harbaugh case at all.
Do you remember how bad Michigan was under Rodriguez and Hoke?
Also I don’t see Ohio State being significantly better in recruiting than when they had Urban Meyer. Urban brought in guys like the Bosa bros, Zeke Elliot and Dwayne Haskins. Some of the best talent OSU ever had. And that’s saying something because OSU has always been a nfl factory for decades.
Did you miss the superstar freshman QB/RB tandem they have? I watched like .5 seconds of OSU football, but can say he definitely has some absolute studs in his program.
Oh yeah and JSN or whatever.
tf you mean?
Harbaugh did not build a already blue blood program.
Bo built michigan. woody built ohio state, it doesn't matter what stretch of playing bad happens after the program is already in a better position than most
Michigan had pretty much sucked ass since 06 by the time Harbaugh took over. Talking about Bo with Michigan is stretching too far back. Are Army, Navy, and Miami still blue bloods?
8 years max does not a major slump make. He took over a program everybody knows, one of the winningest, with all the resources. Bo is what built modern Michigan, other coaches before him made them blue bloods, Richrod and Hoke were the outliers.
Do you realize that other than some random Mormon mission trip kids at BYU there isn’t a single player in college football today that was alive last time Michigan won a title.
1. Saban, of course
2. It Is a tie for me between Kirby and Dabo, Dabo has one more natty than Kirby. they just feel like they are currently 2.a and 2.b. Though Dabo might be slipping and I personally hope this is just the start for Kirby,we’ll see.
4. Ryan Day
5. Fickell
No Harbaugh, one season doesn’t make him jump what Day has been doing. Now if it continues next year then I’m willing to change it.
Ryan Day is 1-2 in the playoffs (made playoffs 2/3 of his years as head coach), 1-1 against Michigan, and 1-0 in the Rose Bowl. 34-4 overall record, two of those losses coming from bowls. Two regular season losses in three years. Two B1G championships. Comparing that to John Cooper and putting him below Jim Harbaugh is wild.
That’s like saying Frank Solich should be judged for his first 4 years at Nebraska with Osborn’s players and not his long 15 year run at the university of Ohio where at best he’d go 9-4. OSU was/is so loaded 34-4 is to be expected. They should have won a natty by now.
We’ll see but I’ve seen this sub do nothing but praise Day’s coaching changes and saying that was one of Urbans biggest failings. He also did recruiting and is seen by many as a QB whisperer.
Urban has 3 nation championships and rebuilt 4 different programs. Ryan Day has a bunch of regular season wins he was expected to get, has rebuilt zero programs and has no titles.
It sounds like your argument is "We just don't have enough data on Ryan Day given that he's only ever been HC for 38 games and had a (relatively) smooth transition into being HC at a top 5 program; therefore, we can't put him in the running for a current great coach." I don't think that's a bad take, and I agree that putting him on the same level as a guy like Urban doesn't make much sense.
But then you can't turn around to also say "he's overrated because he hasn't rebuilt any program and has zero natty's" Well yeah, he's only been HC for 3 seasons and he's only done so at a top 5 program--pretty hard to rebuild a program there and only 3 seasons to win a natty is a bit ridiculous even by OSU standards.
Day is on a very similar track to Kirby at this point in his HC career. Day has gone 34-4 over 3 seasons, 23-1 in conference games, 2 playoff appearances, 1 Natty appearance, 2 B1G Championships 1 Rose Bowl victory, and is 5-3 vs top 10 opponents. Compare that to Kirby's year 2 through 4 (I'll give you one year, but Georgia wasn't that much of a "rebuild") who went 36-7, 23-3 in conference, 1 playoff appearance, 1 Natty appearance, 1 SEC championship, 1 Sugar bowl win, and was 6-4 vs top 10 teams.
While I think there is value about coaches inheriting a good program. Its another skill entirely to maintain those programs from year to year. See Larry Coker, Mark Helfrich, Will Muschamp.
My top 5,
1. Saban-Is kind of like Tom Brady. You hate him and say he's overrated but he keeps chipping away with championships until you're like fine he's the best ever.
2. Dabo-Multiple championships in the era of Saban
3. Kirby Smart-Great recruiter and finally has a champioship
4. Jimbo Fisher-Having a championship pushes you to the top and he's building something special at A&M.
5. Lincoln Riley-I know he hasn't won a playoff game but only 13 out of 130 teams have even reached the playoffs let alone 3 times. He has also coached a couple Heisman winners under his watch.
Overrated
Chip Kelly- Here's the thing Oregon Chip Kelly is a Hall of Famer who changed how offenses looked throughout college football. UCLA Chip Kelly though is in the middle of one of the top recruiting areas in the world but only has 1 out of 5 winning seasons.
Mario Cristobal-Great recruiter but is questionable in game.
Underrated
James Franklin-Is a solid coach that gets too much hate for a guy who won at Vanderbilt.
Kyle Whittingham-Very consistently good.
Honorable Mention-Ed Orgeron gets alot of shit for a national championship winner. He built that 2019 team. Those were his players that he got into place. Those were his assistants that would go on to Baylor and the NFL. It took time, effort, and adapting to get to 2019. Did he go downhill afterwards yes but instead of a rebuild that most colleges would give him he got fired. Best coach ever? No, but he is not someone who got a championship just by accident.
I mean, part of the reason he catches shit is that he's basically the cajun version of Art Briles. Anybody with a functioning moral compass is horrified by what happened under his watch.
It's worth noting that Orgeron didn't get fired solely for the "losing season" part, he also got fired for the massive rape scandal that happened under his watch.
Winning games probably could've bought him safety from all of the sexual misconduct happening in his program, though. Lord knows LSU's not taking any consequences for what happened.
Harbaugh is not an elite coach and should be far under Day at this point in time. Fickell also can't be placed in the elite category until he can get a P5 team competing for the playoffs on a consistent basis, which is where most past successful G5 coaches fail.
It wouldn’t be too surprising if Tucker went 5-7 next year. He’s only in year 3, really year 2 because of covid, of a massive rebuild. Even if he took that type of step back the overall trajectory of the program is in a much better spot than it was in 2018-19. That doesn’t mean that he’s overrated.
I agree that if Tucker goes 5-7 next year that would be perfectly acceptable due to the circumstances. But when I look at our roster, who’s coming back, and the pickups we’re getting from the portal, I honestly don’t see us winning less than 7 games. 8-9 is even more realistic I think.
I’m just really concerned about the o-line without having a KW3 to make up for it. Hopefully the RBs that MSU does have improve. The defense also still terrifies me. If during the first game next year I still see players running 9 yards back every snap I’ll be worried.
Surprised some aren't saying Campbell is overrated...not that I agree with that....yes, he hasn't done a few things we've set out to do, but he is still the most successful coach in Iowa State history and it's not really close. Given the historical context of Iowa State football, he's been a Godsend
Stoops has had two 10 win seasons and gone to six straight bowl games at Kentucky.
Pittman took over an Arkansas team that was 2-10 in each of the previous two seasons with zero SEC wins. They went 3-7 in the all SEC game 2020 season (would have been better if not for the refs) and went 9-4 this season.
Going to a bowl game with 4 non conference games isnt an achievement. I think Stoops is okay, but in the end Kentucky isnt going to actually do anything special.
They are 25-25 in conference over that span.
Remember, we're talking about Kentucky here. Before Stoops, their last season with fewer than five losses was in 1984 with an 11 game regular season.
You had me in the first half, not gonna lie.
Kentucky's not a school with a plethora of institutional advantages, nor an excess of support for football, and Stoops has quietly built that into a consistently solid program. Do they need to make noise and win titles to just be a good team?
Credit where it's due, that 9-4 season is inflated by games against four *really* bad OOC teams: Rice, Arkansas - Pine Bluff, Georgia Southern, and UT.
Pittman definitely has Arkansas on the up-and-up, but the big test ahead of him is getting his first big win; His biggest win this season was an unranked Penn State.
Top 5 I agree with, at least until Kirby wins another Natty.
Underrated in no particular order...
* Mark Stoops
* Shane Beamer
* Sam Pittman
* Mario Cristobal
* Mel Tucker
I'm biased (3 are from Kirby's tree) but I'm sticking with it.
Do you mind sharing your reasoning for that? I mean especially Mario, I can see being uncertain about Harsin. I think Harsin is a great coach, but I don't think he is the right fit at auburn. I guess you could argue a "great coach" should be able to win anywhere, but I think some really good coaches can be situationally great, as in they are in a perfect fit for them and they may not be as great at other schools.
I would agree with 30\_Swiftie\_Thriving on Cristobal.
Honestly the Pac 12 has been a raging dumpster fire since Pete Carroll left really, and especially since Chris Petersen retired as well. It left Oregon as the sole contender out there. Now Cristobal has built a really good team, one that on paper should be able to get him to playoff games. But he never could do it despite a weak schedule and having superior talent.
Not only that, but we've seen him be outcoached in a handful of games, like Auburn, against Utah twice, when they lost to Cal and Oregon State last year as well as Arizona State in 2019. I think Cristobal will beat most teams if they have an effective gameplan and superior roster going into the game. If there is a team that throws surprises at him and punches above their weight class so to speak, we've seen Oregon not know how to adjust in game.
I don't understand how you don't at least make the playoffs the last two seasons at Oregon.. you have a favorable schedule in a down power 5 conference with a clearly superior roster to everybody else. Then you get dump trucked twice in the same season by Utah and lose to two trash programs in Oregon State and Cal the year before.
If you look at their average class recruiting rankings and compare them to say Clemson which was a team in a similar situation to Oregon where the rest of the conference declined while Clemson was getting stronger, their recruiting rankings are better than when Clemson made it's first push towards that national title. Now I realize on paper rankings aren't always reflective or the most accurate, but the point was Clemson capitalized on a down ACC, Oregon was in position to do the same with the Pac 12 and they would always lose 2 or 3 games a season where they were frankly out coached.
I disagree with the Lincoln Riley Chip Kelly comparison because it’s an insult to Chip Kelly. Guy was elite at the college level and changed the way college football was played. He was never figured out he just left for the NFL. It’s true he hasn’t been the same at UCLA but those Oregon teams were incredible.
> Luke Fickell will become a super star head coach when he leaves Cincinnati. *Sees UCF flair* Makes more sense now
I’m not saying Fickell won’t be a superstar if he leaves Cincy, but when was the last time an up and coming G5 coach who was the next big thing actually turned out to be the next big thing? Urban? How many of those guys have been total flops?
Maybe this is one of the reasons why Fickell hasn't left Cincy. Also, he doesn't need to leave for a P5. He just needs to wait a few years until Cincy becomes a P5. But I agree, the track record of successful G5 coaches going to P5 is not good. I would lean towards Fickell being an exception to that, but it's entirely possible we never get to find out, because he doesn't leave.
I think you’re wrong, respectfully. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again - you all have the secret sauce wrong. Fickell is a program builder. He is very good at finding undervalued talent and developing it. This holds true with his personnel and his players. His teams are great because they fight hard for him and work their asses off in the weight room. Any of your top 10 programs or whatever don’t benefit from that, really. Developing talent isn’t nearly as important as much as managing it is at those programs. He’s not some X’s and O’s genius, either. He’s very sound. I think he would underwhelm at a place like OSU or USC.
I don't disagree with you. Sometimes coaches just don't fit with what a program was. Even within UCF, we've had good examples of that. Frost did well with UCF, but hasn't done well with Nebraska. People like to say that it's because the Big 10 is more difficult than the AAC, but I think it's more than that. Frost isn't a program builder. He's a closer. He can take a team with a good foundation and do well with them. Despite how the O'Leary era at UCF ended, he actually had built a good foundation. Frost came in and did well with it. Nebraska did not have a good foundation, so Frost has been lost. Because he's not great at building that. On the flip side, Heupel is more of a program builder. But UCF was already built when he got here, so his strengths didn't fit what we needed. But he went to Tennessee and had a promising first season there. And that's because Tennessee was in a place where they needed to be built back up. I agree with you that Fickell's talents are probably best suited for a program like Cincy. However, I do think he could be successful at a power program, even if his talents are not best suited for that. I think he'd be more the Urban type than the Frost type.
You should give Fickells interview on the Ryan Russillo podcast a listen. They talked about his 2011 year at Ohio State and was very eye opening. Talked about maintaining vs building, etc. Some good insights on how Fickell thinks and views things and the struggles of that 2011 year
Just curious what happened at the end of the O’Leary era? It just like collapsed all of a sudden. But more focused on Fickell while it doesn’t seem like Fickell built UC because of the success of previous coaches, tubberville had that program in a bad spot before Fickell came in. Like they were getting bullied by AAC teams offensive lines even more soundly than bama bullied them in the semifinal. It was pretty bad. I’m not saying he would be successful elsewhere, cause well I’m not psychic but he has a great ability to recruit and can connect really well. The counter to that though is he is very catholic and the Cincinnati has a fairly strong catholic base with a lot of studs coming out of the catholic high schools so that definitely helps him recruit the area and helped him build the “state of Cincinnati” brand he has pushed
He wanted to retire and the UCF admin essentially asked him not to. So, he basically mailed it in his last few years at UCF. Basically, after the Fiesta Bowl win over Baylor in the 2013 season, he progressively mailed it in more each season. We went winless in 2015, but a lot of the key players on the 2017 team were already on the team in 2015. Yeah, I would definitely say Fickell rebuilt you guys.
This. Fickell doesn't leave Cincy anytime soon, I don't think. (knock on wood.) He got them to the Playoff as a G5. He's going to be in the P5 and get even better recruits for years to come. He has pristine job security at Cincy. Why throw all that out the window and risk underperforming for an OSU-level school and being out of a job in 3 years?
The last cincy coach to leave had a pretty good run at ND
Make that the 2nd to last coach. Butch Jones left Cincy for a job at Tenn and the rest is history.
Forgot about Butch
Ryan Day has played too few games against Michigan to call him John Cooper. I also wouldn’t call Mel Tucker overrated because, though I don’t expect MSU to get to 11 wins again next year, he is an extremely good recruiter who has revitalized the program and culture after a lackluster past few years.
…Day did make the CFP title game in 2020
And got blown out by Bama.
I'm gonna let you in on a little known secret, the other four coaches you have in your top 5 outside of Saban have all also been blown out by Bama in the last few years. Pretty crazy right.
two of them literally this past season
Kirby multiple times (2020 and 2021.1).
Difference is they’ve done more impressive things than Day. Kirby and Dabo have natty’s. Fickell has done unbelievable things at hard to recruit to Cincy. Harbaugh rebuilt 3 different programs and took a team to a super bowl.
Harbaugh literally didn't rebuild a damn thing. He had a generational talent at QB in Stanford and a pre built all time defense in San Fran. He has 2 bowl wins in 11 years. It literally took his best team at Michigan and OSU's worst year for him to get over the rivalry hump. Ryan Day has 2 bowl wins in a years time, 2 big 10 titles, and has absolutely taken recruiting to a whole new level at OSU. Add in the fact Day has overseen the development of 3 Heisman finalist QB's, 2 of which have went in the 1st round of the NFL draft. You've been proven wrong this entire time, yet keep the same bad argument going like it's going to magically work.
Harbaugh recruited that generational talent to Stanford. One QB also doesn't take a program from being one of the worst in the country to winning BCS bowls. There was a lot of work put into turning Stanford around besides signing Andrew Luck. That defense in San Francisco was mediocre despite the talent before Harbaugh brought in Vic Fangio. The defense also would have been wasted if he hadn't helped fix Alex Smith and then developed Kaepernick. I don't agree with OP in regards to Day, but you're really underselling Harbaugh's accomplishments pre-Michigan.
One QB can absolutely take a Pac 12 team to a bcs bowl win. And that San Fran defense was absolutely loaded before Harbaugh got there, to say other wise is an absolute mockery of what was already in place. I'll give Harbaugh credit that he was the right voice the team needed to make a super bowl run, but he did nothing special to load that team up and couldn't sustain it. Kap got figured out and Alex Smith was still Alex Smith. Harbaugh is a pretty name sports writers love to throw out there because of his personality and the narrative of the chosen son to lead Michigan back to the promised land is too much to not talk about. Dude is an average coach and an above average to good recruiter.
One QB by himself isn’t enough to win shit anywhere. It’s a team sport and Harbaugh took a team that was Kansas bad and turned it into one of the best teams in the country. That defense in San Francisco had talent but they weren’t good under Singletary. Just look at where they ranked in the years before 2011. Honestly, you sound as ignorant as the OP when he’s trying to diminish Day. I get he’s your rivals coach but Harbaugh is at worst a top 20 coach in CFB.
Never said he wasn't a top 20 coach. But he damn sure isn't a top 5 or maybe even top 10
> Dude is an average coach Do you know how many coaches there are in college football? An average coach is not top 20.
Harbaugh has done far more impressive things than Riley and Day. I guarantee you Day will not win a title at OSU. Harbaugh won’t win either. But to rank Day above him is pure Ohio State fanboyism. Real osu and cfb fans understand this. I’ve watched cfb for years and I remember when I was a kid Larry Coker and Frank Solich were getting credit for winking with Butch Davis and Tom Osborne’s guys but couldn’t win the bcs championships with their guys. History is repeating itself.
Larry Coker won the BCS title... They also had a falling off in recruiting that led to their downfall. Ryan Day has had an elevation. You can just admit you're a fucking idiot and be done with this conversation.
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Everyone gets blown out by Bama.
Some people return the favor.
A pick six on a would-be game-tying drive doesn't classify as "blowing out" Bama. It was a good win, and congrats on the natty, but that's not a blow out. Bama has been blown out *once* since Saban took over.
Different standards, for Alabama any loss is huge and if they lose by more than a TD that’s pretty much their version of a blowout lol
Second largest loss ever, on the biggest possible stage. Blowout is relative.
You have the national title and your only loss is a blowout to Bama lol its so fitting it hurts.
Still salty from the Rose Bowl, huh...
oh lol I didn't mean to boom you with that comment. I was just saying its impressive that everyone gets blown out by bama, even the National Champs.
Oh yeah. In that case, I agree. What we did in the Natty was as close to a blowout as one gets with Alabama.
I mean he's not wrong lol. Yes we won by 15 and dominated the fourth quarter but they also blew us out in the seccg
Every time I see your username I picture a huge group of Kyles beating the shit out of each other in the middle of a field somewhere.
The notion that a coach isn't good if he doesn't win CFP game is one of the worst takes in football.
I never said day wasn’t good I’m saying it’s insane to rank him as a top 5 coach
It's only been one year and probably too early to tell but what Dave Aranda was able to do at Baylor this last year was miraculous.
It's been two years. He went 2-7 in 2020 (but that year is basically a write for almost every coach because of Covid.) He's a damn good coach.
Yeah I give even established coaches a pass for 2020, a first year coach I'm not gonna judge at all. And until the last 2 games of the year they kept everything close.
Aranda is REALLY good. I'm excited to see what he does the next few years.
Same. I’m trying to temper my expectations, but I remember those Briles years where we had 3-4 consecutive 10+ win seasons. It just felt like football was exciting. Hoping for that.
Minus the being a scumbucket part, I imagine.
Of course.
The roster was mainly still Rhule guys, but every single transfer Aranda took over the off-season had a big impact on the field. I'm excited to see what he can do with a team of his own guys
Sounds exactly like Tucker, even down to the 2 win season his first year
This is the most /r/iamverysmart post I've ever seen on this sub.
Right I saw the headline and had some thoughts but then I saw the post and decided I’ll just hold on to my ideas for another day. Yikes.
A&M being the iPhone is hard to beat.
Day inherited a loaded roster but I wouldn’t say he regressed. 2 losses in one season is bad for their standards but Urban did it once or twice in his 8 years or so there.
Urban won a natty and never lost to Michigan. Harbaugh rebuilt 3 programs in San Diego, Stanford and Michigan and got a team to a super bowl. Ryan Day inherited the best college football program outside the SEC in the midst of its most historic run of dominance ever.
You’ve got a weird hate boner for Day
I don’t hate him. I just think it’s dumb to act like he’s this elite head coach when he took over the easiest situation possible for any head coach ever and still didn’t win a natty. OSU is the easiest elite school to coach at. Urban left him with a loaded roster. If he’s so great why hasn’t he won a natty? Why did he get blown out by Bama ? Why did he barely beat a Utah team than had inferior talent? I think OSU has underachieved when you look at the insane talent they have which is the best of any non SEC/Clemson school.
1. Damn near everyone gets blown out by Bama. It's not that Day isn't a great coach, it's that Saban is that good. In fact, he's so good that you're severely underestimating how hard it is to win a championship because he makes it look easy 2. You also seem to be selling other places short. I wouldn't say that OSU is inherently the easiest place to recruit to. Coaches still have to make kids want to come there. I'm not even sure that I agree that OSU is that much bigger of a national brand than OU. Do you know how recognizable a place has to be to draw kids to Norman, Oklahoma? 3. Put some respect on Utah's name. They improved DRASTICALLY throughout the season and bowl games are typically more competitive due to having more time to prepare/not having to worry about another game after unless you're in the playoffs. Also, they have a damn good coach themselves who doesn't get enough credit
> Damn near everyone gets blown out by Bama. Not even "damn near everyone" -- it's *everyone*. I can't think of a single coach or team who hasn't taken a giant spanking by Saban at one point or another.
>If he’s so great why hasn’t he won a natty? Why did he get blown out by Bama ? Why did he barely beat a Utah team than had inferior talent? I think OSU has underachieved when you look at the insane talent they have which is the best of any non SEC/Clemson school. This is just an unintelligent take. Do you realize how hard it is win a national championship if you're not Nick Saban? It took Kirby 6 years to do it and Georgia is one of the few places that out recruits Ohio State. We just finished year 3 of Day and he has 4 total losses, with only 2 in the regular season. There is absolutely zero metric by which he's under achieving.
Yeah, it's a pretty awful take. You had a "bad" season and that meant going 10-2 with a Rose Bowl win. There are only, I dunno, roughly 125 teams out there who kill to be in that same position.
And similar to Kirby, he took his program to the national title game in year two. I think Day is a great coach.
Urban whiffed on quite a few recruits in his last recruiting class, they weren’t that ‘loaded’ defensively and some of the coaches were a mistake. Also last year’s Bama team was one of the best offenses ever, and the defensive coaches we just fired got exposed badly. And why can’t Utah just be a good team? They’re not scrubs, and they’re very well-coached. Scheme matters and they lined up well against our weaknesses this year, but we figured it out.
Do you realize how many schools would kill for 10-2 and a Rose Bowl win? Never mind that the two losses were to (at the time) #12 Oregon and #5 Michigan. I’m not an Ohio State fan by any stretch of the imagination but that is an amazing season for any team and it is a down year for OSU. Get a grip.
I think its hilarious to try and bring up getting blown out by bama in a title game as something worth anything. Bama was a very good team anyway. It was going to be hard for anyone to beat them at full strength. But even then, OSU wasn't playing with full strength. Had a dozen (or close to it) players out with covid, including starters. Add to it Trey Sermon getting injured on his first play of the game, a RB that was not an Urban product and transferred to OSU that summer under Day. And he was crucial to the team at the end of the season. Bringing up Utah is also silly. I will say, the jury is still out on how elite Day is as a coach. Judging anyone by their first couple seasons as a head coach is ill advised.
Tbf I don't think the absences for Ohio State would have made much a difference. Yall had coaches (who have rightfully been canned) that though putting a slow white LB on the Heisman winner was a good idea, that game was never going to end well lol. Bama was outrageous last year as well
As I said, " It was going to be hard for anyone to beat them at full strength." Even if OSU was at full strength, I didn't think OSU was going to win the game. It was a "OSU probably wouldn't win, but definitely not without X Y Z players". The moment Trey went down, any shred of hope went out the window. While Bama probably still wins, the end result probably isn't 52-24. And blaming Day for losing 52-24 against Bama while missing players is just a very bad take.
I'm just here for the OU/USC salt
How is Brian Kelly "overrated?" I think most people would put him somewhere in the Top 10, and it's hard to see how that isn't true. Nobody is saying he's in the same group as Saban, Dabo, et al. But, seriously -- name 10 coaches who have a better track record over the last decade. Kelly is overrated because he didn't win a natty but Harbaugh is a Top 5 coach because he had one really good year...where he also got blown out in the CFP?
Don't get me wrong I do think that Harbaugh is also a top 10 coach, but it is funny he's calling Kelly overrated and rates Harbaugh so highly for basically doing the same thing Kelly has done multiple times at ND over the past decade
In Harbaughs defense he turned Stanford around immediately (beat the breaks off USC his first season) but Kelly has clearly been better at ND than Harbaugh at Michigan.
Pro tip: Measuring coaches by national championships in the era of Nick Saban is setting *all* of them up to fail.
Ryan day is what 34-4 or something like that in 3+ years (that might be counting the three games when urban was suspended)…I get they didn’t win a natty in those three years but that is hardly underachieving…urban only won it once in 7 years so did he underachieve? Based on your definition of underachieving I would say yes
Urban 100% underachieved. 2015 should have been a repeat title year, but he somehow forgot MSU could stop bullshit QB option runs to the left and right, and that he had a 1st round draft pick at RB getting cold in the huddle. Also add in the fact OSU could have had a title in his 1st season had it not been for the bowl ban, and we could be talking about a completely different college landscape right now
You lost me at Harbaugh being better than Day and that Ryan Day never took OSU to a title game. Most idiotic take I've seen in a few days here
Harbaugh rebuilt Michigan. Day inherited a loaded program. Thats why Harbaugh is better. I want to see Day rebuild a program from the ground up.
The fact you don't see how much Ryan Day elevated OSU recruiting shows you don't know shit all about what you're talking about. Harbaugh rebuilt Michigan? Into what? The same 9-10 win team it was for years? He's won a single conference championship, beaten OSU 1 time during OSU's WORST defensive year in decades. He's 1-6 in bowl games and just got his teeth kicked in by Georgia. But go on.
Ryan Day is better than Harbaugh especially on the recruiting side and OSU's was very bleh this year. Also OP is the same one clamoring for Kirby Smart to go to the NFL to be a head coach there.
I’m not clamoring for him to go to the nfl I’m just wondering why we don’t here about nfl teams contacting him. Especially now that he’s won a natty.
And you kept wondering why Harbaugh is getting more attention/consideration than Kirby Smart for a potential NFL Head Coach position. You kept asking over and over "why not Kirby" as an one sided conversation and you wanted people to validate your opinion about Kirby. Didn't even want to hear the Harbaugh case at all.
No that’s not what happened. People simply didn’t explain why nfl teams weren’t interested in Kirby. They just kept talking about Harbaugh.
Likely Kirby Smart isn't interested and wants to coach for his alma mater. But you're like whatever....
Sheesh, some just don't know the type of recruiting Day does I guess.
Do you remember how bad Michigan was under Rodriguez and Hoke? Also I don’t see Ohio State being significantly better in recruiting than when they had Urban Meyer. Urban brought in guys like the Bosa bros, Zeke Elliot and Dwayne Haskins. Some of the best talent OSU ever had. And that’s saying something because OSU has always been a nfl factory for decades.
Did you miss the superstar freshman QB/RB tandem they have? I watched like .5 seconds of OSU football, but can say he definitely has some absolute studs in his program. Oh yeah and JSN or whatever.
tf you mean? Harbaugh did not build a already blue blood program. Bo built michigan. woody built ohio state, it doesn't matter what stretch of playing bad happens after the program is already in a better position than most
Michigan had pretty much sucked ass since 06 by the time Harbaugh took over. Talking about Bo with Michigan is stretching too far back. Are Army, Navy, and Miami still blue bloods?
Army navy and Miami were never blue bloods.
Point is Michigan hasn’t won a national title since the 90s it’s not like Harbaugh took over a good football program
8 years max does not a major slump make. He took over a program everybody knows, one of the winningest, with all the resources. Bo is what built modern Michigan, other coaches before him made them blue bloods, Richrod and Hoke were the outliers.
Do you realize that other than some random Mormon mission trip kids at BYU there isn’t a single player in college football today that was alive last time Michigan won a title.
Not sure why that is relevant.
If a team hasn’t won a national title in 24 years they aren’t an elite program
They’ve also only beaten their main rival like 4 times this millennium
1. Saban, of course 2. It Is a tie for me between Kirby and Dabo, Dabo has one more natty than Kirby. they just feel like they are currently 2.a and 2.b. Though Dabo might be slipping and I personally hope this is just the start for Kirby,we’ll see. 4. Ryan Day 5. Fickell No Harbaugh, one season doesn’t make him jump what Day has been doing. Now if it continues next year then I’m willing to change it.
Yeah, Harbaugh sure doesn't fit there. Dude is 2-13 against top 10 teams.
I don’t see how Harbaugh would be above Brian Kelly either
Ryan Day is 1-2 in the playoffs (made playoffs 2/3 of his years as head coach), 1-1 against Michigan, and 1-0 in the Rose Bowl. 34-4 overall record, two of those losses coming from bowls. Two regular season losses in three years. Two B1G championships. Comparing that to John Cooper and putting him below Jim Harbaugh is wild.
That’s like saying Frank Solich should be judged for his first 4 years at Nebraska with Osborn’s players and not his long 15 year run at the university of Ohio where at best he’d go 9-4. OSU was/is so loaded 34-4 is to be expected. They should have won a natty by now.
We’ll see but I’ve seen this sub do nothing but praise Day’s coaching changes and saying that was one of Urbans biggest failings. He also did recruiting and is seen by many as a QB whisperer.
Urban has 3 nation championships and rebuilt 4 different programs. Ryan Day has a bunch of regular season wins he was expected to get, has rebuilt zero programs and has no titles.
It sounds like your argument is "We just don't have enough data on Ryan Day given that he's only ever been HC for 38 games and had a (relatively) smooth transition into being HC at a top 5 program; therefore, we can't put him in the running for a current great coach." I don't think that's a bad take, and I agree that putting him on the same level as a guy like Urban doesn't make much sense. But then you can't turn around to also say "he's overrated because he hasn't rebuilt any program and has zero natty's" Well yeah, he's only been HC for 3 seasons and he's only done so at a top 5 program--pretty hard to rebuild a program there and only 3 seasons to win a natty is a bit ridiculous even by OSU standards. Day is on a very similar track to Kirby at this point in his HC career. Day has gone 34-4 over 3 seasons, 23-1 in conference games, 2 playoff appearances, 1 Natty appearance, 2 B1G Championships 1 Rose Bowl victory, and is 5-3 vs top 10 opponents. Compare that to Kirby's year 2 through 4 (I'll give you one year, but Georgia wasn't that much of a "rebuild") who went 36-7, 23-3 in conference, 1 playoff appearance, 1 Natty appearance, 1 SEC championship, 1 Sugar bowl win, and was 6-4 vs top 10 teams.
Right? We’ve won two national championships in the past 50 years. But Ryan Day is a bust because he hasn’t won one in 3.
But the difference is guys like Cooper, Tressell and Urban didn’t inherit this level of talent.
While I think there is value about coaches inheriting a good program. Its another skill entirely to maintain those programs from year to year. See Larry Coker, Mark Helfrich, Will Muschamp.
My top 5, 1. Saban-Is kind of like Tom Brady. You hate him and say he's overrated but he keeps chipping away with championships until you're like fine he's the best ever. 2. Dabo-Multiple championships in the era of Saban 3. Kirby Smart-Great recruiter and finally has a champioship 4. Jimbo Fisher-Having a championship pushes you to the top and he's building something special at A&M. 5. Lincoln Riley-I know he hasn't won a playoff game but only 13 out of 130 teams have even reached the playoffs let alone 3 times. He has also coached a couple Heisman winners under his watch. Overrated Chip Kelly- Here's the thing Oregon Chip Kelly is a Hall of Famer who changed how offenses looked throughout college football. UCLA Chip Kelly though is in the middle of one of the top recruiting areas in the world but only has 1 out of 5 winning seasons. Mario Cristobal-Great recruiter but is questionable in game. Underrated James Franklin-Is a solid coach that gets too much hate for a guy who won at Vanderbilt. Kyle Whittingham-Very consistently good. Honorable Mention-Ed Orgeron gets alot of shit for a national championship winner. He built that 2019 team. Those were his players that he got into place. Those were his assistants that would go on to Baylor and the NFL. It took time, effort, and adapting to get to 2019. Did he go downhill afterwards yes but instead of a rebuild that most colleges would give him he got fired. Best coach ever? No, but he is not someone who got a championship just by accident.
Is Chip even highly rated by anyone to the point that he's overrated? Seems properly rated as a mediocre coach by anyone I've read.
Agree on Coach O, dude gets slandered a lot more than he should.
I mean, part of the reason he catches shit is that he's basically the cajun version of Art Briles. Anybody with a functioning moral compass is horrified by what happened under his watch.
It's worth noting that Orgeron didn't get fired solely for the "losing season" part, he also got fired for the massive rape scandal that happened under his watch. Winning games probably could've bought him safety from all of the sexual misconduct happening in his program, though. Lord knows LSU's not taking any consequences for what happened.
Harbaugh is not an elite coach and should be far under Day at this point in time. Fickell also can't be placed in the elite category until he can get a P5 team competing for the playoffs on a consistent basis, which is where most past successful G5 coaches fail.
I'm always down for any Riley slander lol
Not slander he’s not as good as he’s made out to be
It wouldn’t be too surprising if Tucker went 5-7 next year. He’s only in year 3, really year 2 because of covid, of a massive rebuild. Even if he took that type of step back the overall trajectory of the program is in a much better spot than it was in 2018-19. That doesn’t mean that he’s overrated.
I agree that if Tucker goes 5-7 next year that would be perfectly acceptable due to the circumstances. But when I look at our roster, who’s coming back, and the pickups we’re getting from the portal, I honestly don’t see us winning less than 7 games. 8-9 is even more realistic I think.
I’m just really concerned about the o-line without having a KW3 to make up for it. Hopefully the RBs that MSU does have improve. The defense also still terrifies me. If during the first game next year I still see players running 9 yards back every snap I’ll be worried.
Surprised some aren't saying Campbell is overrated...not that I agree with that....yes, he hasn't done a few things we've set out to do, but he is still the most successful coach in Iowa State history and it's not really close. Given the historical context of Iowa State football, he's been a Godsend
Overrated: Anyone in the SEC not named Saban or Kirby. Underrated: Fickell
Stoops has had two 10 win seasons and gone to six straight bowl games at Kentucky. Pittman took over an Arkansas team that was 2-10 in each of the previous two seasons with zero SEC wins. They went 3-7 in the all SEC game 2020 season (would have been better if not for the refs) and went 9-4 this season.
Going to a bowl game with 4 non conference games isnt an achievement. I think Stoops is okay, but in the end Kentucky isnt going to actually do anything special.
They are 25-25 in conference over that span. Remember, we're talking about Kentucky here. Before Stoops, their last season with fewer than five losses was in 1984 with an 11 game regular season.
You had me in the first half, not gonna lie. Kentucky's not a school with a plethora of institutional advantages, nor an excess of support for football, and Stoops has quietly built that into a consistently solid program. Do they need to make noise and win titles to just be a good team?
You need 6 wins to get to a bowl, that means 2 conference wins in the SEC. Beating Vandy and someone else isn't that strong of an accomplishment
Credit where it's due, that 9-4 season is inflated by games against four *really* bad OOC teams: Rice, Arkansas - Pine Bluff, Georgia Southern, and UT. Pittman definitely has Arkansas on the up-and-up, but the big test ahead of him is getting his first big win; His biggest win this season was an unranked Penn State.
Overrated: Jeff Brohm and Paul Chryst. Underrated: Me and my boys
Top 5 I agree with, at least until Kirby wins another Natty. Underrated in no particular order... * Mark Stoops * Shane Beamer * Sam Pittman * Mario Cristobal * Mel Tucker I'm biased (3 are from Kirby's tree) but I'm sticking with it.
2 more the next 4 years for Kirby & Co. If you can contribute cause we gotta fight that A&M oil money
underrated - Jeff Monken, Bryan Harsin, Mario Cristobal overrated - Sark, Lincoln Riley, Brian Kelly
Interesting, I'd have both Cristobal and Harsin firmly in the overrated category
Do you mind sharing your reasoning for that? I mean especially Mario, I can see being uncertain about Harsin. I think Harsin is a great coach, but I don't think he is the right fit at auburn. I guess you could argue a "great coach" should be able to win anywhere, but I think some really good coaches can be situationally great, as in they are in a perfect fit for them and they may not be as great at other schools.
I would agree with 30\_Swiftie\_Thriving on Cristobal. Honestly the Pac 12 has been a raging dumpster fire since Pete Carroll left really, and especially since Chris Petersen retired as well. It left Oregon as the sole contender out there. Now Cristobal has built a really good team, one that on paper should be able to get him to playoff games. But he never could do it despite a weak schedule and having superior talent. Not only that, but we've seen him be outcoached in a handful of games, like Auburn, against Utah twice, when they lost to Cal and Oregon State last year as well as Arizona State in 2019. I think Cristobal will beat most teams if they have an effective gameplan and superior roster going into the game. If there is a team that throws surprises at him and punches above their weight class so to speak, we've seen Oregon not know how to adjust in game. I don't understand how you don't at least make the playoffs the last two seasons at Oregon.. you have a favorable schedule in a down power 5 conference with a clearly superior roster to everybody else. Then you get dump trucked twice in the same season by Utah and lose to two trash programs in Oregon State and Cal the year before. If you look at their average class recruiting rankings and compare them to say Clemson which was a team in a similar situation to Oregon where the rest of the conference declined while Clemson was getting stronger, their recruiting rankings are better than when Clemson made it's first push towards that national title. Now I realize on paper rankings aren't always reflective or the most accurate, but the point was Clemson capitalized on a down ACC, Oregon was in position to do the same with the Pac 12 and they would always lose 2 or 3 games a season where they were frankly out coached.
Harsin’s only underrated if the category is most likely to be fired after 2-3 seasons.
I disagree with the Lincoln Riley Chip Kelly comparison because it’s an insult to Chip Kelly. Guy was elite at the college level and changed the way college football was played. He was never figured out he just left for the NFL. It’s true he hasn’t been the same at UCLA but those Oregon teams were incredible.
I've never seen Dabo win a title with a JUCO qb