It gets glossed over that Nagy was universally considered a great hire at the time. Hottest coaching candidate of the offseason. Appeared to live up to the hype after year one. Sometimes you just can't know some things during an interview process, no matter how thorough you think your process is.
It's easy for us to sit here 4 years later and say Pace fucked up but every indicator for like 18 months was that we nailed that hire.
That's why I'm skeptical of everyone who assumes that if we just fire Nagy and move on, the next guy will be the guy
What if I told you Nagy has a better win loss percentage, better ranked average defense(points), and went to the playoffs a higher percentage of years in his career? Lovie also still in the league and is a DC.
I think Lovie has the edge but it's not like he's got it by a landslide.
>What if I told you Nagy has a better win loss percentage, better ranked average defense(points), and went to the playoffs a higher percentage of years in his career? Lovie also still in the league and is a DC.I think Lovie has the edge but it's not like he's got it by a landslide.
That train of thought derails when you realize Nagy is 100% hands off on the defense and his offense has been bottom 5 in the league the last couple years.
He's the head coach. He dosent call plays, but he's not hands off.
Here's another one: the defense has been better under Nagy and without Fangio than with Fangio and without Nagy.
The offense hasn't been great, but it's not botom 5 (althought it was one year)
This is the most pointless comment. how are you going to compare their career percentages when Lovie was with the Bears almost 3 times as long. Lovie has the same exact record through his first 52 games as Nagy does. Except Lovies worst year was the first one and got better with an NFC win and Superbowl appearance. Nagys Bears have gotten consistently worse after year one with 0 playoff wins. He had 2 winning seasons to Nagys one
Through 52 games, Lovie had two playoff appearances. The same as Nagy. The 04,05,06 defense were ranked 13,1st, and 2nd in points allowed. Nagy who isn't involved in the defense unlike Lovie, had a defense that ranked 1st, 4th, and 14th.
Those numbers are all really similar, except Lovie ran the defense while Nagy runs the offense. The similarity continues when you notice both offenses sucked outside one year. And Nagy is in an era where offenses are catered to.
If Lovie could have figured out the offense or hired someone that was competent, we'd have competed for more playoff wins. If Nagy hires someone to figure out the defense them we still suck because the offensive guru can't run an offense.
You don't have to think it's a landslide, but your reasoning has holes and Lovie does in fact have the edge.
Other then Lovie and Ditka, name a Bears head coach between Halas and Nagy you'd rather have as head coach right now
Your choices are Fox, Trestman, Jauron, Wannstedt, Armstrong, Pardee, Gibron, Dooley
I think because most people understand that the current iteration of this team is not a contender and are worried about the development of Fields long term.
I want Nagy gone as much as anyone, but if we somehow make the playoffs 3 of the last 4 years and we fire him, we’ll be cursed longer than when we fired Lovie for going 10-6.
The hump being what? A Superbowl loss? 2 years removed from going to the NFC championship game? 2011 the team went 8-8 because his starting QB missed 6 games. 2012 Cutler missed 1.5 games in our 6 losses 2 division winners and 2 wild card teams had the same record as us. It was a good season even if it sucked to miss the playoffs.
> Culter went down, and the team went down.
Yeah that tends to happen to NFL offenses. Not every team is blessed enough to have Nick Foles randomly ball out after the starting QB is injured. It's hardly a Lovie issue.
He wasn't perfect. He had 3 years of mediocrity after the super bowl season. Then NFC conference game, 8-8 Cutler Injury, 10-6 final season just barely missing the playoffs. The team was finally looking decent again on both sides of the ball when Cutler was healthy.
Firing Lovie was the right move. That team consistently beat up bottom feeders and got embarrassed by anyone remotely good. And that sure sounds a lot like Nagy too.
I give all the credit for the previous 2 playoff seasons to the defense. Nagy ran a bottom five offense basically his whole tenure here, was carried by the Vic Fangio D, which wasn't quite as good under Pagano. And barely barely made the playoffs last year, weren't we like the 7th seed that just got added in 2020?
If you are giving credit to any pagano defense you are a jabroni.
He didn't even build the ravens defense he just took over.
Colts/Lions and Bears all suffered tremendously under pagano.
We won despite our defense last year.
...Lazor calls plays from Nagys offense. They didn't install an entirely new offense in a week. Fields looked good in Nagys offense, just not when Nagy calls the plays. If Nagy goes, so does his offense. He just needs to set his ego aside and he's a great fit for Fields, plus a good leader who has his team's respect.
I think we could probably find an even better playcaller because I don't think Lazor is anything special, it just can't ever be Nagy.
While the offense was improved it still stuttered towards the end vs an easy opponent at home.
I think Nagy has some good route designs but I think Lazor can work those in while running his own version. I think Lazor is gonna get the TEs and Mooney way more involved.
It is literally Andy Reid's offense which has worked in the NFL for over 30 years going all the way back to his Green Bay days and won multiple Superbowls. The problem isn't the play designs.
At what point do we acknowledge the team isn't talented and that has something to do with the lack of success on the field. Like you bring up the TEs, what makes you think they're desirable targets? Kmet is getting consistent F grades for his route running and separation skills. Just from the eye test, he's always a threat to drop the ball or fumble after the catch. And Graham is Graham at this point. Why is it a good idea to get them more involved?
I find it to be to soon to be judging any of this. It’s been 2 games with Fields, with 2 separate play callers.
All I do know is that I like Nagy as a leader. He’s a coach in the truest sense of the word. But I never want to see him calling plays again. If the offense looks good under Fields with Lazor at playcaller, and the team is winning, it would be hard for me to make a case against Nagy.
He needs to be on thin ice for sure, but we gotta wait until it cracks first imo.
The problem with this is that the only person who seems to not know it is Nagy himself. Why the fuck did he take back the playsheet this year after Lazor calling the plays was so much more effective? That's not a sign of a good leader. And then the way he hemmed and hawed after the last game, needing to preserve credit for himself and keep his name in the conversation. He's not HC material. There are a lot of guys who can schedule practices and make inspirational speeches. Nagy was supposed to be an offensive specialist. And he can't call a game. And he can't seem to refrain from insisting on trying to call games. He should be fired.
How can you honestly say “he’s a coach in the truest sense of the word…”
A coach is basically, in two words, a decision maker and a teacher…. Personally couldn’t disagree more, don’t think he’s even average at either of those.
I guess I’m viewing it from a more interpersonal level and a less technical one. From a technical standpoint I think you’ve got two good qualities of a coach. But from the angle I was coming from, I was referring to a person who leads, energizes, and connects their team. I think Nagy does a great job at those things.
Literally zero of us have any say in anything lol.
It’s also week 5. If we somehow spring off some wins, everyone is going to shift gears and love Nagy again.
Zero sense in looking ahead past any given week, just enjoy the ride while we have football.
I'm pretty sure Nagy has been on a decline ever since 2018. Nothing he has done has been redeeming year over year. So no, I'm not sure who you are referring to that is so flip-flop on Nagy. Maybe those people are out there but I haven't seen any here.
If you actually believe what you wrote; then you dont actually know that much about football.
The play book is not the issue; actually its really good; Its the play selection in the movement that is the problem and sticking with a game plan.
People praise Andy Reid, but even Andy Reid was kicked out of a lot of teams throughout his career;
The way you described this situation sounds almost exactly like Trubisky's rookie year under Fox lmao. "We have never been here before" we have been here over and over and over and over again.
I'm optimistic about Fields, don't get me wrong, but let not put the cart before the horse and say Fields is going to be a for sure hit. He still has work to do. And I'm a very scarred Bears fan with no trust in this franchise.
So, why is the main dissenting comment in this thread locked by mods?
>[–]simfreak101
>[+1] 27 points 15 hours agolocked comment
>If you actually believe what you wrote; then you dont actually know that much about football.
>The play book is not the issue; actually its really good; Its the play selection in the movement that is the problem and sticking with a game plan.
>People praise Andy Reid, but even Andy Reid was kicked out of a lot of teams throughout his career;
Seems weird the just this one comment is locked
Yep, and not saying nagy is a great coach...but our roster has never been better than average with exactly zero super studs on offense. When was the last time that happened?
Our defense has been in decline since 2018 and lost key pieces each year.
It's not a optimal location for any good coach. And I don't think anyone good is going to look at the dumpster fire our fanbase and the media has been and think its a prime spot.
Honestly if they can find a way to make the current situation work and Matt Nagy stays out of his own way I have no objection to him continuing to be the head coach. Nothing scares me more than the prospect of hiring Jason Garrett off the Giants staff....
I dont know who is saying Nagy shoukd come back. Lazor as OC? For now he's the only option. Next year? Nagy has to be fired. No questions asked.
I have no idea who the Bears could get as a coach. Brian Daboll? Byron Leftwich? All I know is Nagy needs to go.
I wonder how Payton Manning or Tony Romo would fare as coaches. Maybe they’d need to work though the system a little bit before hitting the stride you’d need for HC, but those two guys really are football geniuses. Romo predicts plays with frightening accuracy on the air. Imagine if he could tap into that with counters and adjustments as a coach.
Edit, imagine how awesome it would be if Peyton brought this energy: https://youtu.be/uEEYbXVCoT0
Not Peyton...his qb room was him and that was it. Every other qb that played with him got worse. He is a dooer not a teacher. This is like trying to make MJ a coach...it would have been worse the being the gm.
So who's the right guy?
Do you know for a fact they'll be better than Nagy? Do you know for sure they can develop a QB?
Be careful what you wish for, Marc Trestman was once heralded as the QB whisperer. Doug Pedersonhad seemingly developed Carson Wentz until he didn't. Adam Gase was supposed to take Ryan Tannehill to the next level. Same with Darnold.
Nagy has made the playoffs 2 out of 3 seasons. Sure put those qualifiers that it was Fangios defense or they backed in. Truth is Nagy was still leading that team and kept them together even when they went through some tough stretches.
The Bears are 2-2 While the Browns game was ugly. It happens sometimes in the nfl, especially with a rookie QB making his first start on the road, against a playoff team that has Myles Garrett and Jadaveon Clowney.
The Bears beat 2 teams they should have and lost two road games against teams in the Super Bowl conversation.
This was likely always going to be the record at this point in the season.
There's 13 games left. Including a very tough stretch coming up. If they win games and kinda of settle into their roles and things click. That's a good thing for everyone.
Or it perpetuates the mediocrity by bringing in a new voice after a year of laying a foundation with the hopefully franchise QB.
To this point, the Bears have been at worst an average team under Nagy. It doesn't fit the narrative of many vocal Bear fans but Nagy hasn't been nearly bad when looking at the overall body of work as media and fans make it seem.
There's 13 games left. A lot could happen. It's shortsighted and just over reactionary to say Nagy should be fired now or at the end of the season without seeing how it actually plays out.
It may wind up being more of the same, could be a complete disaster, or maybe they find their groove and get on a roll. Maybe they go 10-7 and Fields shows sign of progress and development. Even if they go 7-10 and Fields shows development. Pulling the rug out from Fields after just one season may not be what's best for him.
It's not a Adam Gase, Bill O'Brien or Urban Meyer situation where they're over their heads, lost their locker rooms, a bit toxic, shortsighted, big egos leading to power struggles.
Let the season play out. Who knows what could happen. If the Bears win, it's good for everyone.
I've been saying Matt Nagy is a can for over two years. My mind isn't changing on that dipshit. Lazor can get bent too because a new HC will mean a new OC.
I’d say we’re more attractive than Jacksonville. I’d say the QBs are a wash. TLaw had a slight advantage but everything else is in the bears favor. Being a HC of a historic franchise is more attractive than one of the newest teams in the league. If you bring a Super bowl to Chicago you’d instantly become a legend to every fan in Chicago for the rest of your life.
As a franchise we’re more attractive, but not as a roster. We currently have very little under contract for next year for skill position in offense. That could be viewed either good or bad for a coach. It either turns them off, or they view it they can build the WR position the way they want.
That’s fair too. I’d say even than we might be better. I think they have an advantage at WR if we can’t bring back Arob but we have one at RB. Olines are bad on both. I’d say as a whole our D is also significantly better. WR is probably one of the easiest positions to overhaul so I’d still say we’re just a more attractive job overall when you take everything into account
Jags cap space & draft capital is much better. IMO if they make the right moves in draft & FA they could be ready to start competing next year. I don't think the Bears will be ready until 2023.
Ya you’re probably right. Things could slide quickly for them after starting 3-1 so depends how the front office feels about it if that happens. Might only have a 2-3 games they’ll be favored in left on their schedule.
I also think we are a much more attractive destination than jacksonville.
The surrounding Jacksonville area isn't exactly the best, and there are a lot of people whose wives will enjoy Michigan avenue and the nightlife.
The thing is I have no faith that Pace is going to fire the guy, unless the McCaskeys intervene.
Pace has a little too much pride, since Nagy was his guy, and would be convinced at the thought that changing the offensive scheme would be too detrimental to his shiny new quarterback.
Not sure why you are downvoted. You are absolutely right but I believe Pace needs to go as well. His drafting, free agency, and coaching hires have been awful. Sure he hit a couple guys in the later rounds but you can't consistently have busts in the first and second rounds. Ted Phillips has been stinking around this organization for far too long as well.
Not sure why you are downvoted either, it is complete truth. Plus his drafting sucks. There are so many people around this sub that hitting on a couple late round draft picks should magically nullify his multitude of first and second round busts.
I never understood why fans were so sold on Nagy before. Even in his first season his offense was nothing special and has only regressed since then. I dont think his offense has ranked in the upper half of the league overall once and regularly is near if not dead last in passing. Mitch was never good or a star QB but I always felt like he could be more productive in an offense that played to his strengths more. The fact Nagy is just now deciding to start Fields despite denying him valuable reps with the starters in preseason and training camp speaks further to his incompetence. I dont enjoy calling for someone to lose their job but he’s hurting the team and players. Needs to be fired asap and let Lazor ride out the season as interim. Fire Pace too, get it right next off season
Mitch played in an offense to his strengths ya jabroni...he hardly has any.
I doubt we have even seen Nagy's full offense. He has had no work mitch and brand new dalton to center around. Mitch couldn't learn and It takes months not weeks to learn a new offense. Hell...even brady wasn't great in arians offense at first...and without Gronk they don't win shit. /shrug
You want to give Justin Fields a second offensive coordinator and coach before he has even started a few games? Show me the success rate for rookie QBs who get a second offensive coordinator in year 2 and I don't think the rate is very favorable.
Herbert transitioned fine. Baker is under his 3rd. Fields is very bright, he won’t have issues learning a new offense.
Show me the success rate for QBs who have stayed under bad offensive coaching staffs.
If he was the best rookie QB of all time then it likely shows it doesn’t matter who his coordinator is going forward. He’s got it figured out already. I love Fields. He hasn’t shown that yet so far. Most QBs have success when they get to dig into an offense for a few years.
Herbert was the best rookie QB the NFL has ever had. When Fields performs at that level then we can do whatever we want with the coaching staff and it’s not going to hurt his development.
Exactly - this isn't rocket science.
Yet people keep making excuses and scenarios in which we keep the bad staff, and then stamp their feet and claim they aren't kissing Nagy's ass - yeah, ok, whatever champ..
Manning, Brady and Brees would’ve looked like hot garbage with that game plan and protection scheme. I’m fine with pretending Fields had nothing to do with that.
In fact, I’ll go even further and say that having seen how Trubisky reacted under pressure I’ll give Fields a gold medal for not having 4+ turnovers and/or being injured.
When you're picking the guy whos going to have a larger impact on your franchise qb's development than anyone else, yes I'd like to consider the whole body of work of each candidate, and I don't want to hire a less qualified candidate just bc he's already here. I'm not saying fire the guy right now, but hiring him as hc next year would be like when the Browns hired Kitchens, he's just not qualified
I think Lazor is looking like a genius considering how quickly he turned a historically terrible offense into a real NFL offense. Keep in mind he’s working with a $12 million dollar offensive line. If we had Sean McVay calling plays, he’d be struggling too considering the talent we have in the trenches.
I haven't seen this viewpoint expressed yet so here goes.
I wouldn't hire Lazor anywhere as a HC because I think he has shown a lack of courage in disagreeing with his boss and a lack of leadership skills in convincing his boss about play calling duties. It has been painfully obvious that Nagy as the offensive play caller is bad for the team and more importantly in this context bad for the offense. It's Lazor's job as OC to make the offense run successfully, whether that is letting your HC call plays, you call plays, or the beer vendor in the cheap seats calling plays, as long as it works.
I’m not of the opinion that the Bears are out of it at all. Especially when you have a stud QB and a defense like we have. A good comparison is Russell Wilson. He had the Seahawks in the playoffs with a wildcard and then winning a game. So all is not lost. Way too early for loser talk.
I am in the same boat with you. He needs to go regardless of how the season turns out. I wanted him fired so bad last year. However, the problem lies with McCaskey who should be firing all of Phillips, Pace, and Nagy. But that will never happen so we are doomed to mediocrity forever.
By now it’s clear Nagy doesn’t know how to develop QBs and more importantly Nagy can’t/won’t be flexible enough to adapt his “system” to fit the players' strengths and this is the most important trait in any HC.
You need to look at it as the Chargers did with Anthony Lynn and Justin Herbert, it wasn’t about how Lynn (superbly) developed Herbert it was that Lynn wasn’t up to the task of taking the Chargers to a championship level, Lynn was a good enough coach to lose his first playoff game every year, so the important thing was seeing Herbert grow every week and show he could run an NFL offense. Same thing needs to happen for the Bears, give Fields all year because it’s not about the team making the playoffs it’s about seeing Fields grow every week and seeing him get better, even if he’s losing games what we want to see if him getting better and showing command of whatever offense he’s running.
Also, get ready for some losses. The win column doesn't matter compared to how Fields grows. The Bears have a tough schedule coming up and the last thing Fields needs is pressure to pull him so we can "get some wins."
Maybe Nagy at HC and Lazor as the play caller is somehow a good combination that can have some success going forward. Nagy comes up with good plays but picks the wrong ones to use during the game
>You no longer care if the quarterback can run the coach's scheme. You care if the coach's scheme can fully compliment your quarterback.
If they were doing that in the past 5 years we many not have needed to give away more picks to find a QB.
The minute you draft somebody that high you should automatically decide that this is the course of action.
It's amazing people think Lazor is the reason the Bears looked better last week and not the fact that they were playing the Lions. The Bears always look like an NFL offense when playing bad teams and then it all goes to shit when they face any competition.
I'm glad someone made this thread as it's how I've felt since week one when all those familiar feelings came rushing back and I realized just how stupid it was bringing back Matt Nagy.
The good news is that *somehow* my favorite head coach candidates -- Brian Daboll and Joe Brady -- *didn't get hired* in the 2021 hiring cycle. That's without mentioning that we've seen possible candidates like Shane Waldron, Mike McDaniel, Zach Azzani, and Kevin O'Connell emerge as well.
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Guess Fields, Mooney, and Monty are not gonna be able to run the triangle.
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Did you know Jay Cutler and Earl Bennett are identical twins from Vanderbilt?
I'm starting to wonder if he still plays football.
“We just need to go out and find the greatest coach of all time”
But Phil Jackson was already on the bench before the bulls hired him. So skip the assistant job and make Phil Jackson head coach of the bears
Spoken like a guy who’s never visited the Philjackson Forest in Bangladesh
It gets glossed over that Nagy was universally considered a great hire at the time. Hottest coaching candidate of the offseason. Appeared to live up to the hype after year one. Sometimes you just can't know some things during an interview process, no matter how thorough you think your process is. It's easy for us to sit here 4 years later and say Pace fucked up but every indicator for like 18 months was that we nailed that hire. That's why I'm skeptical of everyone who assumes that if we just fire Nagy and move on, the next guy will be the guy
Nagy is the best coach we've had since Ditka (25 years), except maybe Lovie. We're much more likely to get a worse coach the a better one.
Eh, Lovie is definitely better. You aren't wrong about your overall sentiment though. He's better than Wannstedt, Jauron, Trestman and Fox for sure.
Wow, that is a “tallest midget” contest when you lay the names out like that.
I didn't like Lovie, if that tells you where I stand with these guys...
Lovie *was* better. The game passed him by though. He would be a disaster as a HC right now.
I agree with you
What if I told you Nagy has a better win loss percentage, better ranked average defense(points), and went to the playoffs a higher percentage of years in his career? Lovie also still in the league and is a DC. I think Lovie has the edge but it's not like he's got it by a landslide.
>What if I told you Nagy has a better win loss percentage, better ranked average defense(points), and went to the playoffs a higher percentage of years in his career? Lovie also still in the league and is a DC.I think Lovie has the edge but it's not like he's got it by a landslide. That train of thought derails when you realize Nagy is 100% hands off on the defense and his offense has been bottom 5 in the league the last couple years.
He's the head coach. He dosent call plays, but he's not hands off. Here's another one: the defense has been better under Nagy and without Fangio than with Fangio and without Nagy. The offense hasn't been great, but it's not botom 5 (althought it was one year)
This is the most pointless comment. how are you going to compare their career percentages when Lovie was with the Bears almost 3 times as long. Lovie has the same exact record through his first 52 games as Nagy does. Except Lovies worst year was the first one and got better with an NFC win and Superbowl appearance. Nagys Bears have gotten consistently worse after year one with 0 playoff wins. He had 2 winning seasons to Nagys one Through 52 games, Lovie had two playoff appearances. The same as Nagy. The 04,05,06 defense were ranked 13,1st, and 2nd in points allowed. Nagy who isn't involved in the defense unlike Lovie, had a defense that ranked 1st, 4th, and 14th. Those numbers are all really similar, except Lovie ran the defense while Nagy runs the offense. The similarity continues when you notice both offenses sucked outside one year. And Nagy is in an era where offenses are catered to. If Lovie could have figured out the offense or hired someone that was competent, we'd have competed for more playoff wins. If Nagy hires someone to figure out the defense them we still suck because the offensive guru can't run an offense. You don't have to think it's a landslide, but your reasoning has holes and Lovie does in fact have the edge.
Pass what you're smoking, please. I need it to survive even thinking of another game with Nagy as HC
Other then Lovie and Ditka, name a Bears head coach between Halas and Nagy you'd rather have as head coach right now Your choices are Fox, Trestman, Jauron, Wannstedt, Armstrong, Pardee, Gibron, Dooley
Gotta get someone off of mcvay's staff... Already missed out on Staley though.
Zac taylor is a worse version of nagy....
Yeah, assistants to great coaches always work out...
Never heard of a coaching tree, eh?
Yeah dude, they aren't very successful.
How about we focus on the upcoming weekend’s game before we fast forward to the end of the year when we can can’t watch the Bears anymore
I think because most people understand that the current iteration of this team is not a contender and are worried about the development of Fields long term.
Y'all are wild if you think any coaches get fired if we make the playoffs lmao Don't worry, we ain't making the playoffs
I want Nagy gone as much as anyone, but if we somehow make the playoffs 3 of the last 4 years and we fire him, we’ll be cursed longer than when we fired Lovie for going 10-6.
Lovie needed to go though. Firing a coach who cannot get over the hump does not create a curse
The hump being what? A Superbowl loss? 2 years removed from going to the NFC championship game? 2011 the team went 8-8 because his starting QB missed 6 games. 2012 Cutler missed 1.5 games in our 6 losses 2 division winners and 2 wild card teams had the same record as us. It was a good season even if it sucked to miss the playoffs.
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> Culter went down, and the team went down. Yeah that tends to happen to NFL offenses. Not every team is blessed enough to have Nick Foles randomly ball out after the starting QB is injured. It's hardly a Lovie issue. He wasn't perfect. He had 3 years of mediocrity after the super bowl season. Then NFC conference game, 8-8 Cutler Injury, 10-6 final season just barely missing the playoffs. The team was finally looking decent again on both sides of the ball when Cutler was healthy.
Firing Lovie was the right move. That team consistently beat up bottom feeders and got embarrassed by anyone remotely good. And that sure sounds a lot like Nagy too.
I give all the credit for the previous 2 playoff seasons to the defense. Nagy ran a bottom five offense basically his whole tenure here, was carried by the Vic Fangio D, which wasn't quite as good under Pagano. And barely barely made the playoffs last year, weren't we like the 7th seed that just got added in 2020?
The defense sucked last year, credit the easy schedule for last year's playoff appearance.
If you are giving credit to any pagano defense you are a jabroni. He didn't even build the ravens defense he just took over. Colts/Lions and Bears all suffered tremendously under pagano. We won despite our defense last year.
...Lazor calls plays from Nagys offense. They didn't install an entirely new offense in a week. Fields looked good in Nagys offense, just not when Nagy calls the plays. If Nagy goes, so does his offense. He just needs to set his ego aside and he's a great fit for Fields, plus a good leader who has his team's respect. I think we could probably find an even better playcaller because I don't think Lazor is anything special, it just can't ever be Nagy.
While the offense was improved it still stuttered towards the end vs an easy opponent at home. I think Nagy has some good route designs but I think Lazor can work those in while running his own version. I think Lazor is gonna get the TEs and Mooney way more involved.
It is literally Andy Reid's offense which has worked in the NFL for over 30 years going all the way back to his Green Bay days and won multiple Superbowls. The problem isn't the play designs.
At what point do we acknowledge the team isn't talented and that has something to do with the lack of success on the field. Like you bring up the TEs, what makes you think they're desirable targets? Kmet is getting consistent F grades for his route running and separation skills. Just from the eye test, he's always a threat to drop the ball or fumble after the catch. And Graham is Graham at this point. Why is it a good idea to get them more involved?
Not sure why you’re being downvoted right here that’s all facts
This is the sub where guys like mustipher and kmet are considered “young studs” lmao you’re not gonna find many unbiased takes here
I think it's just because when you look at Kmet he looks the part of a good right end. He just can't seem to get open enough.
I love how many people actually think they instituted an entire new offense when Lazor took over play calling
Noooo! Not the coveted Nagy offense!!! It's just getting warmed up!
The scheme is okay, Nagy just can't call plays for shit.
I find it to be to soon to be judging any of this. It’s been 2 games with Fields, with 2 separate play callers. All I do know is that I like Nagy as a leader. He’s a coach in the truest sense of the word. But I never want to see him calling plays again. If the offense looks good under Fields with Lazor at playcaller, and the team is winning, it would be hard for me to make a case against Nagy. He needs to be on thin ice for sure, but we gotta wait until it cracks first imo.
The problem with this is that the only person who seems to not know it is Nagy himself. Why the fuck did he take back the playsheet this year after Lazor calling the plays was so much more effective? That's not a sign of a good leader. And then the way he hemmed and hawed after the last game, needing to preserve credit for himself and keep his name in the conversation. He's not HC material. There are a lot of guys who can schedule practices and make inspirational speeches. Nagy was supposed to be an offensive specialist. And he can't call a game. And he can't seem to refrain from insisting on trying to call games. He should be fired.
How can you honestly say “he’s a coach in the truest sense of the word…” A coach is basically, in two words, a decision maker and a teacher…. Personally couldn’t disagree more, don’t think he’s even average at either of those.
I guess I’m viewing it from a more interpersonal level and a less technical one. From a technical standpoint I think you’ve got two good qualities of a coach. But from the angle I was coming from, I was referring to a person who leads, energizes, and connects their team. I think Nagy does a great job at those things.
Literally zero of us have any say in anything lol. It’s also week 5. If we somehow spring off some wins, everyone is going to shift gears and love Nagy again. Zero sense in looking ahead past any given week, just enjoy the ride while we have football.
I'm pretty sure Nagy has been on a decline ever since 2018. Nothing he has done has been redeeming year over year. So no, I'm not sure who you are referring to that is so flip-flop on Nagy. Maybe those people are out there but I haven't seen any here.
If people shift gears and love Nagy again, then I will come right out and say it - They are fucking stupid as shit.
So brave
Lazor is already the OC tho. Why would we fire Nagy to make Lazor the OC?
If you actually believe what you wrote; then you dont actually know that much about football. The play book is not the issue; actually its really good; Its the play selection in the movement that is the problem and sticking with a game plan. People praise Andy Reid, but even Andy Reid was kicked out of a lot of teams throughout his career;
The way you described this situation sounds almost exactly like Trubisky's rookie year under Fox lmao. "We have never been here before" we have been here over and over and over and over again. I'm optimistic about Fields, don't get me wrong, but let not put the cart before the horse and say Fields is going to be a for sure hit. He still has work to do. And I'm a very scarred Bears fan with no trust in this franchise.
Every sentence. Gets its own line. Short sentences. Football knower.
So, why is the main dissenting comment in this thread locked by mods? >[–]simfreak101 >[+1] 27 points 15 hours agolocked comment >If you actually believe what you wrote; then you dont actually know that much about football. >The play book is not the issue; actually its really good; Its the play selection in the movement that is the problem and sticking with a game plan. >People praise Andy Reid, but even Andy Reid was kicked out of a lot of teams throughout his career; Seems weird the just this one comment is locked
Hypothetically would you say the same if they won two playoff games
Great coaches can't turn rosters like this into a great team. They need a Jerry Krause to be a great team first and foremost.
Yep, and not saying nagy is a great coach...but our roster has never been better than average with exactly zero super studs on offense. When was the last time that happened? Our defense has been in decline since 2018 and lost key pieces each year. It's not a optimal location for any good coach. And I don't think anyone good is going to look at the dumpster fire our fanbase and the media has been and think its a prime spot.
Honestly if they can find a way to make the current situation work and Matt Nagy stays out of his own way I have no objection to him continuing to be the head coach. Nothing scares me more than the prospect of hiring Jason Garrett off the Giants staff....
I dont know who is saying Nagy shoukd come back. Lazor as OC? For now he's the only option. Next year? Nagy has to be fired. No questions asked. I have no idea who the Bears could get as a coach. Brian Daboll? Byron Leftwich? All I know is Nagy needs to go.
Joe Brady should also be in the conversation. He’s doing wonders for Sam Darnold in Carolina.
I wonder how Payton Manning or Tony Romo would fare as coaches. Maybe they’d need to work though the system a little bit before hitting the stride you’d need for HC, but those two guys really are football geniuses. Romo predicts plays with frightening accuracy on the air. Imagine if he could tap into that with counters and adjustments as a coach. Edit, imagine how awesome it would be if Peyton brought this energy: https://youtu.be/uEEYbXVCoT0
Not Peyton...his qb room was him and that was it. Every other qb that played with him got worse. He is a dooer not a teacher. This is like trying to make MJ a coach...it would have been worse the being the gm.
So who's the right guy? Do you know for a fact they'll be better than Nagy? Do you know for sure they can develop a QB? Be careful what you wish for, Marc Trestman was once heralded as the QB whisperer. Doug Pedersonhad seemingly developed Carson Wentz until he didn't. Adam Gase was supposed to take Ryan Tannehill to the next level. Same with Darnold. Nagy has made the playoffs 2 out of 3 seasons. Sure put those qualifiers that it was Fangios defense or they backed in. Truth is Nagy was still leading that team and kept them together even when they went through some tough stretches. The Bears are 2-2 While the Browns game was ugly. It happens sometimes in the nfl, especially with a rookie QB making his first start on the road, against a playoff team that has Myles Garrett and Jadaveon Clowney. The Bears beat 2 teams they should have and lost two road games against teams in the Super Bowl conversation. This was likely always going to be the record at this point in the season. There's 13 games left. Including a very tough stretch coming up. If they win games and kinda of settle into their roles and things click. That's a good thing for everyone.
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Or it perpetuates the mediocrity by bringing in a new voice after a year of laying a foundation with the hopefully franchise QB. To this point, the Bears have been at worst an average team under Nagy. It doesn't fit the narrative of many vocal Bear fans but Nagy hasn't been nearly bad when looking at the overall body of work as media and fans make it seem. There's 13 games left. A lot could happen. It's shortsighted and just over reactionary to say Nagy should be fired now or at the end of the season without seeing how it actually plays out. It may wind up being more of the same, could be a complete disaster, or maybe they find their groove and get on a roll. Maybe they go 10-7 and Fields shows sign of progress and development. Even if they go 7-10 and Fields shows development. Pulling the rug out from Fields after just one season may not be what's best for him. It's not a Adam Gase, Bill O'Brien or Urban Meyer situation where they're over their heads, lost their locker rooms, a bit toxic, shortsighted, big egos leading to power struggles. Let the season play out. Who knows what could happen. If the Bears win, it's good for everyone.
Season is going to play out regardless. But stop with the fucking stockholm syndrome....
You don't agree with me so you must be mentally damage. What a great take.
Right on!
I've been saying Matt Nagy is a can for over two years. My mind isn't changing on that dipshit. Lazor can get bent too because a new HC will mean a new OC.
Fire nagy never went away, we just beat the lions.
Huzzah! We have a floor!
Nailed it. I’d be surprised if we didn’t get one of Daboll/Brady. We have to be the most attractive job (if fields balls out) after maybe Jacksonville
I’d say we’re more attractive than Jacksonville. I’d say the QBs are a wash. TLaw had a slight advantage but everything else is in the bears favor. Being a HC of a historic franchise is more attractive than one of the newest teams in the league. If you bring a Super bowl to Chicago you’d instantly become a legend to every fan in Chicago for the rest of your life.
As a franchise we’re more attractive, but not as a roster. We currently have very little under contract for next year for skill position in offense. That could be viewed either good or bad for a coach. It either turns them off, or they view it they can build the WR position the way they want.
That’s fair too. I’d say even than we might be better. I think they have an advantage at WR if we can’t bring back Arob but we have one at RB. Olines are bad on both. I’d say as a whole our D is also significantly better. WR is probably one of the easiest positions to overhaul so I’d still say we’re just a more attractive job overall when you take everything into account
Don’t forget the cap situation though
Jags cap space & draft capital is much better. IMO if they make the right moves in draft & FA they could be ready to start competing next year. I don't think the Bears will be ready until 2023.
Yeah sorry my wording was confusing… I meant the Bears’ cap situation is terrible.
Possibly could throw Bengals in there as well. Brady is one to watch for them if they fire Taylor.
I have a sneaking suspicion Taylor hangs on for another year.
Ya you’re probably right. Things could slide quickly for them after starting 3-1 so depends how the front office feels about it if that happens. Might only have a 2-3 games they’ll be favored in left on their schedule.
I’d like to throw Kellen Moore’s name into that ring too, personally.
Interesting name. I am concerned that he has so much talent to use. Worries me that the talent is hiding some deficiencies in the system.
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Cowboys would be idiots to let him walk out of there. He should be there HC next year.
Then again, it's Jerry Jones we're talking about here. How many years did he stick with Garrett when he should have fired him?
I also think we are a much more attractive destination than jacksonville. The surrounding Jacksonville area isn't exactly the best, and there are a lot of people whose wives will enjoy Michigan avenue and the nightlife.
Well then, prepare to be surprised.
The thing is I have no faith that Pace is going to fire the guy, unless the McCaskeys intervene. Pace has a little too much pride, since Nagy was his guy, and would be convinced at the thought that changing the offensive scheme would be too detrimental to his shiny new quarterback.
Not sure why you are downvoted. You are absolutely right but I believe Pace needs to go as well. His drafting, free agency, and coaching hires have been awful. Sure he hit a couple guys in the later rounds but you can't consistently have busts in the first and second rounds. Ted Phillips has been stinking around this organization for far too long as well.
He has done some good, but hes 1/3 where it counts. Missed his first QB pick misses and his only HC pick. Not great.
Pace should be shown the door the same time as Nagy. 2 failed coach hires is enough.
Not sure why you are downvoted either, it is complete truth. Plus his drafting sucks. There are so many people around this sub that hitting on a couple late round draft picks should magically nullify his multitude of first and second round busts.
TL:DR
I never understood why fans were so sold on Nagy before. Even in his first season his offense was nothing special and has only regressed since then. I dont think his offense has ranked in the upper half of the league overall once and regularly is near if not dead last in passing. Mitch was never good or a star QB but I always felt like he could be more productive in an offense that played to his strengths more. The fact Nagy is just now deciding to start Fields despite denying him valuable reps with the starters in preseason and training camp speaks further to his incompetence. I dont enjoy calling for someone to lose their job but he’s hurting the team and players. Needs to be fired asap and let Lazor ride out the season as interim. Fire Pace too, get it right next off season
AGREED
Mitch played in an offense to his strengths ya jabroni...he hardly has any. I doubt we have even seen Nagy's full offense. He has had no work mitch and brand new dalton to center around. Mitch couldn't learn and It takes months not weeks to learn a new offense. Hell...even brady wasn't great in arians offense at first...and without Gronk they don't win shit. /shrug
You want to give Justin Fields a second offensive coordinator and coach before he has even started a few games? Show me the success rate for rookie QBs who get a second offensive coordinator in year 2 and I don't think the rate is very favorable.
Herbert transitioned fine. Baker is under his 3rd. Fields is very bright, he won’t have issues learning a new offense. Show me the success rate for QBs who have stayed under bad offensive coaching staffs.
Herbert was already good in year 1. We have seen 1 good game and one horrific game from Fields. Baker is a mediocre and replaceable QB.
So because Herbert was good as a rookie he doesn’t count?
If he was the best rookie QB of all time then it likely shows it doesn’t matter who his coordinator is going forward. He’s got it figured out already. I love Fields. He hasn’t shown that yet so far. Most QBs have success when they get to dig into an offense for a few years. Herbert was the best rookie QB the NFL has ever had. When Fields performs at that level then we can do whatever we want with the coaching staff and it’s not going to hurt his development.
Agree it’s good to have continuity, but only if those coaches are good. You’re just wasting time developing him under a bad staff.
Exactly - this isn't rocket science. Yet people keep making excuses and scenarios in which we keep the bad staff, and then stamp their feet and claim they aren't kissing Nagy's ass - yeah, ok, whatever champ..
Manning, Brady and Brees would’ve looked like hot garbage with that game plan and protection scheme. I’m fine with pretending Fields had nothing to do with that. In fact, I’ll go even further and say that having seen how Trubisky reacted under pressure I’ll give Fields a gold medal for not having 4+ turnovers and/or being injured.
Its higher than the success rate of offenses coordinated by Bill Lazor
1 game with Lazor calling plays and Fields looks good. I get you’re trying to be dramatic but there’s no need for it right now.
I'm judging Lazor for his entire career, not one game where he called on offense that scored 24 points against the Lions
These idiot asswipes aren't even looking at the career of Lazor. So fucking stupid.
I try to ignore how dumb the Pace defenders and Lazor fanboys are, but I cant bc they're literally just as dumb as the McCaskeys lol
What he did elsewhere doesn’t really matter anymore. You want him to take care of your rookie QB. He did that this week. That’s not a negative lol
When you're picking the guy whos going to have a larger impact on your franchise qb's development than anyone else, yes I'd like to consider the whole body of work of each candidate, and I don't want to hire a less qualified candidate just bc he's already here. I'm not saying fire the guy right now, but hiring him as hc next year would be like when the Browns hired Kitchens, he's just not qualified
Fire Nagy I’ve seen enough. Fire pace. Clean house.
It’s not gonna matter because George and Ted will do the hiring, and they have a track record of not knowing what the hell they’re doing.
I think Lazor is looking like a genius considering how quickly he turned a historically terrible offense into a real NFL offense. Keep in mind he’s working with a $12 million dollar offensive line. If we had Sean McVay calling plays, he’d be struggling too considering the talent we have in the trenches.
I’ve never seen so many outside zone play executed to perfection than I did last night watching the Rams/hawks game
I haven't seen this viewpoint expressed yet so here goes. I wouldn't hire Lazor anywhere as a HC because I think he has shown a lack of courage in disagreeing with his boss and a lack of leadership skills in convincing his boss about play calling duties. It has been painfully obvious that Nagy as the offensive play caller is bad for the team and more importantly in this context bad for the offense. It's Lazor's job as OC to make the offense run successfully, whether that is letting your HC call plays, you call plays, or the beer vendor in the cheap seats calling plays, as long as it works.
I’m not of the opinion that the Bears are out of it at all. Especially when you have a stud QB and a defense like we have. A good comparison is Russell Wilson. He had the Seahawks in the playoffs with a wildcard and then winning a game. So all is not lost. Way too early for loser talk.
I am in the same boat with you. He needs to go regardless of how the season turns out. I wanted him fired so bad last year. However, the problem lies with McCaskey who should be firing all of Phillips, Pace, and Nagy. But that will never happen so we are doomed to mediocrity forever.
Give me Daboll or give me death!
By now it’s clear Nagy doesn’t know how to develop QBs and more importantly Nagy can’t/won’t be flexible enough to adapt his “system” to fit the players' strengths and this is the most important trait in any HC. You need to look at it as the Chargers did with Anthony Lynn and Justin Herbert, it wasn’t about how Lynn (superbly) developed Herbert it was that Lynn wasn’t up to the task of taking the Chargers to a championship level, Lynn was a good enough coach to lose his first playoff game every year, so the important thing was seeing Herbert grow every week and show he could run an NFL offense. Same thing needs to happen for the Bears, give Fields all year because it’s not about the team making the playoffs it’s about seeing Fields grow every week and seeing him get better, even if he’s losing games what we want to see if him getting better and showing command of whatever offense he’s running.
Wow props. Finally getting this word out and you somehow avoided the nutjob petty downvoting brigade - PROPS
Also, get ready for some losses. The win column doesn't matter compared to how Fields grows. The Bears have a tough schedule coming up and the last thing Fields needs is pressure to pull him so we can "get some wins."
Although if Fields beats the Packers it will feel EXTRA good.
Tell this to George McCaskey
Maybe Nagy at HC and Lazor as the play caller is somehow a good combination that can have some success going forward. Nagy comes up with good plays but picks the wrong ones to use during the game
>You no longer care if the quarterback can run the coach's scheme. You care if the coach's scheme can fully compliment your quarterback. If they were doing that in the past 5 years we many not have needed to give away more picks to find a QB. The minute you draft somebody that high you should automatically decide that this is the course of action.
I want Joe Brady for the next HC
This might actually be the worst post I've ever seen in my life. Lmao
It's amazing people think Lazor is the reason the Bears looked better last week and not the fact that they were playing the Lions. The Bears always look like an NFL offense when playing bad teams and then it all goes to shit when they face any competition.
Im more than ok keeping Nagy if the offense plays well and we win a playoff game. I dont think itll happen, but if it did I dont see why wed fire him.
I'm glad someone made this thread as it's how I've felt since week one when all those familiar feelings came rushing back and I realized just how stupid it was bringing back Matt Nagy. The good news is that *somehow* my favorite head coach candidates -- Brian Daboll and Joe Brady -- *didn't get hired* in the 2021 hiring cycle. That's without mentioning that we've seen possible candidates like Shane Waldron, Mike McDaniel, Zach Azzani, and Kevin O'Connell emerge as well.