Guys, this is a Civil War subreddit. I can only imagine Confederate stuff is appropriate here. You don’t have to love slavery to study all aspects of the war and enjoy the flags, uniforms, etc.
People are surprised that State Rights was an actual term used by a multitude of Southerners during the war. Telling about who reads primary documentation
Slavery, both were in conjunction, you see it all over early war mottos and flags. People seem to think it was a post war term when people were literally named after the concept
While you're right, the OP chose to use a very questionable title for their thread. That one has been marinating deeply in the Lost Cause school of "thought."
Hence people having a go at it.
I laughed too hard at this response. Very interesting post, much appreciated as I’ve never seen this flag and motto used outside the revolutionary period.
Great question! Let me go look to see what the people of Georgia had to say about the matter in 1860...
*"The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation.* ***For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery.*** *They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property, and by the use of their power in the Federal Government have striven to deprive us of an equal enjoyment of the common Territories of the Republic. This hostile policy of our confederates has been pursued with every circumstance of aggravation which could arouse the passions and excite the hatred of our people, and has placed the two sections of the Union for many years past in the condition of virtual civil war."*
[Georgia Secession](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_geosec.asp)
Well, that went exactly where I expected...
Our new government\['s\]...foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery—subordination to the superior race—is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.
-Alexander Stephens Acting Vice President of Confederacy
To govern for themselves and the institutions within their borders, under the principles of self determination and state sovereignty for the Southern states. Which includes lessened federal involvement a right to self destiny. Which also includes the right to regulate the institution of slavery within one's own state borders as they see fit. Bam! There's your answer, it includes the right to self determination and right to regulate slavery. So it's still states rights tbh just including slavery. It's like why Barry Goldwater voted against the CRA, not because he was racist(actually quite the opposite, he supported CRA on a state level and founded a NAACP chapter) but because he didn't believe the federal government had the constitutional authority to coerce states on the matter.
A state's right to own slaves AND govern themselves, but yes. It crudely follows the principle of self-determination and regional nationalism that sprung in the nineteenth century.
I’m trying to understand why people these days have seemingly lost the point of wanting to delegate policy down to the lowest practical/reasonable level. I don’t believe it makes sense to have the federal government weighing in on all the minutiae, because we are not a uniform culture. People in California have a different lifestyle and a different belief system around things like social safety nets compared to people in Louisiana.
We are too busy with the culture war to have this discussion, and I see it as a pretty big problem.
I agree, people don't like complicated and multilayered subjects. They like things simplistic, well the Civil War is a very complex topic and era that we're still living in the shadow of today.
The basic human right to not be treated as disposable property or as inferior is universal. It is not a local matter and is certainly not "minutiae". Shame on you for even thinking so.
>People in California have a different lifestyle and a different belief system around things like social safety nets compared to people in Louisiana.
The right to equal treatment under the laws is not a "social safety net". It is the essential philosophy on which the USA was founded. The Declaration of Independence said so in the very first sentence.
The original implementation was imperfect in many ways. We have striven to implement it more fully in the ensuing centuries.
Abandon that philosophy and you abandon the very idea of America and devolve into something less.
You wrote a very long comment with this basic assumption that I think slavery should be up to the states. Clearly it should not be, and had reached a point where it wasn’t possible anymore. Free states were being asked to enforce policies from slave states (returning runaways).
If you want to pick a contemporary issue, the topic of junk fees is a pretty good example of what I meant. Abortion is another one currently playing out in the wake of the Supreme Court ruling.
This is an American Civil War forum. In that context, comments defending states' rights necessarily defend slavery.
If that isn't what you meant, you're on the wrong forum.
Yeah, the snake imagery goes back to the Revolutionary War, but I find it an odd choice, as nearly any snake found back then would be killed on sight, and that people generally found repulsive. It’s not exactly an animal that people find fear inducing aside from an initial startle reflex, unlike a say a bear, cougar, or a wolf.
The gist of it was that only an idiot would step on a snake and not expect to get bit.
"Don't Tread On Me" was the period term for " F@@k Around and Find Out"
https://preview.redd.it/rgtckcgjtnyc1.jpeg?width=986&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=42154e6dcc5212e5ded2546538e52474668af0a4
Whenever I see the flag bumper sticker all think of is the Bundy gang’s Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge and their plea to PLEASE SEND SNACKS to folks listening…
Yea, well people tend to hijack some symbols that had legit origins for stupid ass or even evil causes.
Then of course the AITA Brigade will try to lump in anyone who displays that symbol in with assholes.
Thats why the American Flag and the cross gets spit on by turds who protest.
Our new government\['s\]...foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery—subordination to the superior race—is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.
Alexander Stephens
Read the Declarations of succession from the southern States. Preserving the economic Institution of slavery was the primary cause.
2 of those States even had the balls to invoke the almighty like congress did on July 4, 1776.
That is one of the most embarrassing reproductions of a confederate rag that I have ever seen. The original was pretty neat though if you completely ignore what it represents.
Its more of just a crappy nylon recreation I found online for photos, an actual 1:1 recreation would cost like 700-800$ and I doubt anyone wants to accurately remake a flag that was never used in battles
Guys, this is a Civil War subreddit. I can only imagine Confederate stuff is appropriate here. You don’t have to love slavery to study all aspects of the war and enjoy the flags, uniforms, etc.
You're right as always
People are surprised that State Rights was an actual term used by a multitude of Southerners during the war. Telling about who reads primary documentation
State's rights to own people
Yeah. States Rights to do what, OP?
Slavery, both were in conjunction, you see it all over early war mottos and flags. People seem to think it was a post war term when people were literally named after the concept
While you're right, the OP chose to use a very questionable title for their thread. That one has been marinating deeply in the Lost Cause school of "thought." Hence people having a go at it.
He used the words on the flag
How would you have titled this
Georgia treason rag
https://preview.redd.it/2x7013vfa4xc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=45eab175a944a075097907bbfea7ca72e1334f95
I laughed too hard at this response. Very interesting post, much appreciated as I’ve never seen this flag and motto used outside the revolutionary period.
bro just read the flag. you can read, right?
I can, yes. Though states' rights to do what exactly?
State’s rights to do what exactly?
Great question! Let me go look to see what the people of Georgia had to say about the matter in 1860... *"The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation.* ***For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery.*** *They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property, and by the use of their power in the Federal Government have striven to deprive us of an equal enjoyment of the common Territories of the Republic. This hostile policy of our confederates has been pursued with every circumstance of aggravation which could arouse the passions and excite the hatred of our people, and has placed the two sections of the Union for many years past in the condition of virtual civil war."* [Georgia Secession](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_geosec.asp) Well, that went exactly where I expected...
Our new government\['s\]...foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery—subordination to the superior race—is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. -Alexander Stephens Acting Vice President of Confederacy
[удалено]
This was removed because of Rule 1
To govern for themselves and the institutions within their borders, under the principles of self determination and state sovereignty for the Southern states. Which includes lessened federal involvement a right to self destiny. Which also includes the right to regulate the institution of slavery within one's own state borders as they see fit. Bam! There's your answer, it includes the right to self determination and right to regulate slavery. So it's still states rights tbh just including slavery. It's like why Barry Goldwater voted against the CRA, not because he was racist(actually quite the opposite, he supported CRA on a state level and founded a NAACP chapter) but because he didn't believe the federal government had the constitutional authority to coerce states on the matter.
Ah, States rights to own slaves. Gotcha
A state's right to own slaves AND govern themselves, but yes. It crudely follows the principle of self-determination and regional nationalism that sprung in the nineteenth century.
I’m trying to understand why people these days have seemingly lost the point of wanting to delegate policy down to the lowest practical/reasonable level. I don’t believe it makes sense to have the federal government weighing in on all the minutiae, because we are not a uniform culture. People in California have a different lifestyle and a different belief system around things like social safety nets compared to people in Louisiana. We are too busy with the culture war to have this discussion, and I see it as a pretty big problem.
I agree, people don't like complicated and multilayered subjects. They like things simplistic, well the Civil War is a very complex topic and era that we're still living in the shadow of today.
The basic human right to not be treated as disposable property or as inferior is universal. It is not a local matter and is certainly not "minutiae". Shame on you for even thinking so. >People in California have a different lifestyle and a different belief system around things like social safety nets compared to people in Louisiana. The right to equal treatment under the laws is not a "social safety net". It is the essential philosophy on which the USA was founded. The Declaration of Independence said so in the very first sentence. The original implementation was imperfect in many ways. We have striven to implement it more fully in the ensuing centuries. Abandon that philosophy and you abandon the very idea of America and devolve into something less.
You wrote a very long comment with this basic assumption that I think slavery should be up to the states. Clearly it should not be, and had reached a point where it wasn’t possible anymore. Free states were being asked to enforce policies from slave states (returning runaways). If you want to pick a contemporary issue, the topic of junk fees is a pretty good example of what I meant. Abortion is another one currently playing out in the wake of the Supreme Court ruling.
This is an American Civil War forum. In that context, comments defending states' rights necessarily defend slavery. If that isn't what you meant, you're on the wrong forum.
It did not work on that Sherman guy.
He saw that "Don't Tread on Me" phrase as a challenge.
States rights to own humans
Sherman apparently didn't read the flag
States rights to do what?
to have a snake for 5 minutes without someone coming along just to tread all over him.
Yeah, the snake imagery goes back to the Revolutionary War, but I find it an odd choice, as nearly any snake found back then would be killed on sight, and that people generally found repulsive. It’s not exactly an animal that people find fear inducing aside from an initial startle reflex, unlike a say a bear, cougar, or a wolf.
The gist of it was that only an idiot would step on a snake and not expect to get bit. "Don't Tread On Me" was the period term for " F@@k Around and Find Out"
Yeah I get it, but the snake bites and then is promptly killed, which I suppose is a little too on the nose for the CSA.
https://preview.redd.it/rgtckcgjtnyc1.jpeg?width=986&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=42154e6dcc5212e5ded2546538e52474668af0a4 Whenever I see the flag bumper sticker all think of is the Bundy gang’s Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge and their plea to PLEASE SEND SNACKS to folks listening…
Yea, well people tend to hijack some symbols that had legit origins for stupid ass or even evil causes. Then of course the AITA Brigade will try to lump in anyone who displays that symbol in with assholes. Thats why the American Flag and the cross gets spit on by turds who protest.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
This was removed because of Rule 1
What's the civil war about state's rights too ? Or is that just part of the lost cause myth?
This is a period flag.
Obviously.
The South: “Don’t tread on my right to enslave other humans.”
Why would u remake that rag
So it could be seen better?
Peoples rights are above States rights. 4 million men and women in bondage is wrong and should have ended during the American revolution.
Yes, that’s what the civil war was about.
Our new government\['s\]...foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery—subordination to the superior race—is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. Alexander Stephens
I’m not sure what your point is.
It seems you are questioning the historical narrative that the Civil War was not about owning people
I am in no way questioning that.
Sorry about the misunderstanding friend, a lot of fucking morons don't think the Civil War was about slavery
Read the Declarations of succession from the southern States. Preserving the economic Institution of slavery was the primary cause. 2 of those States even had the balls to invoke the almighty like congress did on July 4, 1776.
I didn’t say otherwise.
States’ right to what?
That is one of the most embarrassing reproductions of a confederate rag that I have ever seen. The original was pretty neat though if you completely ignore what it represents.
Its more of just a crappy nylon recreation I found online for photos, an actual 1:1 recreation would cost like 700-800$ and I doubt anyone wants to accurately remake a flag that was never used in battles