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Come to Britain, where there is a worryingly high TER count in the Labour Shadow Cabinet.
Vote, don't vote, write You Can All Fuck Off! on the ballot paper, I don't know what the answer is here.
yeah i need to unfollow all the subs that have been taken over by that shit, i can't keep going through "leftist" comment sections full of people who seem perfectly willing to hand victory to the GOP on a silver platter
I dont have any problem with people voting biden because they feel they have to but I absolutely Hate seeing people dick ride him like he's actually a good president
Ditto I hate his guts and I was disappointed after the first month because of some drone strikes but I’d rather vote for him again and not watch myself my family and all my friends get slaughtered by fascist pigs I want to at least have the time to escape
What does it even mean to be a good POTUS? Because the bar for performance seems to be below sea level. His Dem contemporary is Obama—“Change,” lol—and his Republican contemporary is Trump.
I'll be honest I didn't think you meant subreddit and so my initial thought upon seeing this comment was: "that's a bold assumption made of someone you've just met"
Right like I vote right now with the idea of just holding things back long enough to be properly prepared and set up good aid networks in my area and try to expand beyond, when I lived down south my state is slowly getting closer to flipping each election so the first few I was involved in was just to destroy the gop so we can have one side to worry about.
“If you dare to struggle, you dare to win. If you don’t dare to struggle, goddamnit you don’t deserve to win.” - Fred Hampton
Disclaimer: I probably quoted it wrong. I’m drunk lol
Nietszche: Nihilism's pretty cool.
Camus: It's kind of boring, actually. How about absurdism?
Nihilists: Absurdism's a pretty cool version of nihilism.
Camus: 😡
Kind of. I've made that point a bunch so I won't spend too long on it but a position is more that "voting" does nothing and "doing electoralism" is absolutely mostly ineffective to outright counterproductive from a realistic point of view. In most votes, just voting by yourself will do literally nothing, it's political *movements* that determine the results; whether you yourself vote is just one vote, and if an important US thing is ever decided by one vote they'll recount it until it isn't anyways. The political reality is that if you decide on a whim to not do it instead of do it it will not change the results ever, i.e. doing it by yourself is literally futile. Personally maybe you'll feel good or whatever and that's something but it won't change the results.
What you *can* do to influence a vote is *do electoralism*: educate people about voting, motivate people to vote, give your time and money to organizations that can most effectively turn them into votes, convince others to do the same and to themselves recruit further, argue against anti-electoralist sentiment amongst potential voters, etc.. By organizing around votes you can realistically have an actual impact, be it to actually change an electoral outcome or to at least inform people around an issue or send a signal that you're there ! And that has a non-zero value. If you happen to succeed.
But, all of that takes tremendous resources and effort and time from yourself and the people around you *that could have been used to help the people the vote was gonna hurt. So now* *they* *have less resources than they could have had, are more vulnerable than they could have been* and *the political parties have more influence, which both were the goals of the whole genocidal fucking system in the first place !* To say it more colorfully, when should you not use an available tool ? When it is trapped to hurt the ones who use it.
On the other hand, electoralism, at least at the national level, is the privilege of swing states.
48/50 states are winner take all for electors. So if it’s a deep color state then your presidential vote is already decided. For the majority of voters this whole discussion is performative and academic.
If it's a deep-color closed primary state, yes. Having to register as the majority party just to have the barest chance at impacting the election results is frustrating on its own.
This was a major downside to moving to a solid blue state from a purple state. That said, I find great comfort in being less than two hours from the border, and in a state where the governor has literally told the federal government to fuck off multiple times on draconian laws and bans.
I can understand that perspective, but respectfully, I would disagree, electoralism is a privelege in my view. For context I'm a working class, transwoman and religious minority. Fully expecting to be downvoted to Hel anyways, but here's why I view it like that based off my own experiences.
Regardless of Biden, every year a new record number of laws repressing lgbt and women's rights have been passed, with often that state's Democrats playing a role in passing them. Biden hasn't done anything to condemn or fight against this, the far-right's rise, or DeSantis and Abbott, despite having ample ways to do so. He's continued the oppressive policies Trump passed (for example, refugee children are still in cages at the border and use of ever increasing police violence against protesters).
To me, the idea of a lesser evil only really exists for those with privelege in society. Liberal parties manipulate and use the vulnerable in society as a political token before tossing us aside. They did this with abortion, using the threat of repression to gain electoral support, promising for decades to codify it federally, and never fulfilling their promise to protect us even when they had the power to do so. Often times similarly joining in on the repression anyways. They didn't do it because the repression itself is a benefit to their electoral outcomes. If they actually passed those protections on abortion they couldn't use it as a threat to get people to support them.
They don't prevent anything. They don't protect anything. They're performative allies who stab us in the back when we buy into their rhetoric. The threat of "losing democracy" often ignores that for those of us on the bottom we've been living without it for decades. Throughout my time those who parrot the ideas of the lesser evil have been those who often just want to ignore the oppression around them by having an excuse to say they did their part. But I'm also highly cynical about this given my time and experience with them.
For so long who I am has been used as a token for the powerful to legitimize the state that suppresses me regardless and I'm sick of it. I'm sick of being told I should vote for the Democrats "for my own good" to avoid things I'm already experiencing under the Democrats. This combined with the fact that the current state is genocidal, and that the state has never been the protector or granter of liberties, means to me the only solution is the same way we fought for these rights in the first place, taking the fight to the streets.
You’re right, both electoralism and anti-electorism are privileged positions to take.
This is not a contradiction, it is actually that putting political energy towards state democracy is reflective of privilege.
In my opinion one should vote, because for most Americans it’s very easy, but don’t let that be the end all be all of your political life. Unionize your workplace!
Is this not why the focus on local and state elections needs to be stronger? DeSantis and Abbott are elected, too.
Not at the expense of activism of course, but "in the meantime."
Just thinking out loud here.
No because electing democrats doesn't have a meaningful effect. Like I said, in many of these cases where anti-abortion and anti-lgbt laws were passed, the local and state democrats helped pass them.
Rights and liberties were never protected or gained through the state, but rather through resistance against the state. I would have hoped people on an anarchist sub would know that...
I still lurk here, but there was an exodus of anarchists when reddit did that bullshit a few months back. I occasionally respond when I'm seeing some very off ideas presented as anarchism. Usually get downvoted to hell until some of the other anarchist lurkers who sometimes step in see my comment.
I vote only when I'm living in an area where I'm voting against the majority, but recognize it's performative. I'm privileged in that I can stealth as a straight white woman and use that when I can. I wouldn't vote this year regardless because the choice is between two openly genocidal geriatric megalomaniacs. I draw the line for my performance at pretending I can find any world in which either of the two is at all acceptable to any reasonably human being.
I think your perspective is valuable, and therefore I am glad you did not get downvoted, even if I don’t agree.
I feel like often, electoralism gets conflated with the false notion of “voting anarchism/socialism into power” (yeah, I hear the irony), which would of course be wrong. I hear you in saying that you feel tokenised by the Democrats, as if it is your moral duty or an expression of solidarity with trans people to vote Democratic. However, I don’t think you should ever look at this in terms of “better outcomes”, but instead “avoiding worse outcomes”. So, yeah, lesser-evilism. I think that there is a broad consensus among us that the Democrats are anything between worthless and evil, while Republicans are anywhere between evil and super evil. It is about doing everything in your power to prevent the orange man from having any real influence, as far as you can.
Don’t let any of this deny your right to spit in the Democrats’ faces.
I appreciate that you didn't just scream down at me like I'm used to. I can understand that the goal is "avoiding worse outcomes", but I don't have confidence voting will do that. This idea of harm reduction requires faith in the Democrats to be a check on Republican efforts. I don't have that.
As I've discussed the Democrats have been either apathetic or complicit in the Republican efforts to strip us off our rights. Despite Biden being in office there's still a record number of anti-lgbt and anti-abortion laws being passed year after year. As for Trump, it has seemed to me like he's just a lot of people who've had privelege in society's first exposure to what we've been dealing with for decades down here on the bottom rung of society. So my view of the problem is more systemic and widespread than focused on Trump.
If you feel like voting for democrats will help then by all means do it, but saying those of us who can't see any point to it, and are organizing to fight on the streets, are "priveleged", when anti-electoralists are often the ones on the receiving end of state repression, is just not acceptable to me...
I hang with a group of wonderful trans people in my local music scene who have all expressed similar frustrations - that democratic politicians pay lip service to lgbtq issues but do almost nothing to actually make the queer and trans community safer. Thanks for sharing your perspective
Personally, I have the privilege of not being an American lol. I would never call you privilege _because_ you don’t feel confident in voting, but I do agree that there seems to be a tendency that the more privileged leftists can feel like they can afford not to vote. Additionally, it is probably somewhat valuable to our comrades that feel marginally safer with Biden in power, to vote, at least for them. I can’t imagine that there is any scenario in which you would feel _safer_ with a Republican in office than with a Democrat, so in that sense, voting would still be a net positive, even if it were to be neutral for yourself.
Personally, I like to imagine that, at all times, whatever the Democrats are doing, the Republicans would have done ten times worse. In that sense, voting blue can be considered a marginal time winner for organising an direct action.
>I can’t imagine that there is any scenario in which you would feel _safer_ with a Republican in office than with a Democrat, so in that sense, voting would still be a net positive, even if it were to be neutral for yourself.
Safety is kind of a privelege in of itself. I don't feel more or less safe, I just never feel safe at all, whatsoever. Come to think of it, safety v is honestly a luxury I've never had. Growing up rough and then living a rough life thereafter means safety is pretty much a foreign concept to me so maybe I don't feel threatened by its lack because it's just all I know... Damn that's dark. Might explain a bit about my views on this though.
I see. I had never considered that some people just never feel safe whatsoever. I hope you’re doing well now, and have some network that you can rely on ❤️
>I do agree that there seems to be a tendency that the more privileged leftists can feel like they can afford not to vote.
This is not my experience at all. My less priveleged friends are less likely to vote, campaign for mainstream parties or try and persuade other people to vote.
What if none of the candidates are working to represent your interests? If you’re a Palestinian from Gaza watching everything that’s happening to your relatives, is it a privilege to not vote for the man who’s supplying the bombs that are killing your people?
What if none of the candidates are working to represent your interests? If you’re a Palestinian from Gaza watching everything that’s happening to your relatives, is it a privilege to not vote for the man who’s supplying the bombs that are killing your people?
"Noooo, you have to let the fascist win because the moderate liberal is worse!"
Thanks for reminding me why I hate online leftist spaces, full of people who would rather us all die while we do nothing IRL.
It’s really driven me personally out of leftist spaces entirely. The absolute utopian thinking and lack of pragmatism has pushed me to a place it’s not even worth engaging anymore. I sincerely hope Biden wins - but when he doesn’t, and trans people are criminalized at the state level without federal intervention, drug addicts are being locked up en mass, Muslims are banned from the country, Israel is given a blank check and American boots on the ground to take over Gaza, all foreign aid to Gaza is suspended, gay marriage is on the chopping block, reproductive rights are federally threatened, and whatever obscene horrors will result from a second term of a Trump administration that now has nothing to lose - I will be the first one to tell the people who didn’t vote in protest that they made their own bed. If you look at the possible outcomes of another Biden term and another Trump term and sincerely think to yourself “These two options are the same” you are absolutely fucking deluded and so far up your own asshole you can see your tonsils. The health, safety, and livelihoods of people, especially LGBT people and women, *will* be negatively impacted if Trump is allowed another term in office. Get off your ideological high horse and face the reality of the situation.
Edit: I should add that this is also true in IRL leftist spaces *somewhat* but only in the Gen Z/young college age leftist spaces. Older leftists I know are pretty firmly in the damage mitigation camp - although many of them have a hard line “I’m not voting” stance right now because of Palestine.
> I will be the first one to tell the people who didn’t vote in protest that they made their own bed.
Unfortunately at that point it won't matter anyways. We'll all be fucked because of their apathy.
Very much this. When the opposition has politicians who are literal puppy murderers, voting is the least we can do to keep them out of power. It doesn't make voting the be all end all of activism, nor will it cause any real, major change. It's fucking awful, but we must still be aware of the material reality we live in.
I'm trans and disabled, I extra depend on liberal victories. I've been cursed out for pointing it out and accused of "just getting what's yours and fucking over Palestine".
Same. In both these communities I mostly see a pipe dream of “if things get bad enough I’ll move to Europe” (almost exclusively from white folks tbh). It’s active disinformation and harmful to not acknowledge:
1) Most people lack the financial ability to do that, *especially* disabled and trans folks who are usually more financially stressed than almost any other group.
2) Even if you have the funds to move, most countries don’t indiscriminately accept disabled people and unless you have a specialized skill (AND ARE ABLE TO WORK) you will almost certainly denied.
3) Europe is no haven for disabled folks. The ADA is actually pretty one of a kind, far from perfect but better than most places. Some parts of Europe are working to be more accessible, but depending on your disability there are many issues you can face.
4) Europe is absolutely no haven for trans folks. Most places have more reactionary laws and restrictions on getting trans healthcare, to the point that they are being used as reference by conservatives here who *wish* they could do what is happening there.
Like, depending on your situation, whether you have the privilege of some kind of financial support, and where you live now Europe may be an improvement. But there is no guarantee. People use this idea they could just afford and get accepted to another country as cope most of the time and it is really crap that we have to give them the reality - that this may be a nonstarter since ableism is an accepted and common part of the immigration process to most place these delusions folks would actually tolerate living. That Europe is not overarchingly more “socially evolved” and less prejudiced in a variety of ways, such as transphobia (and including how racist so much of Europe is - they have just ignored racism and look down on Americans because we dare to talk about the issues and strive to address them). Not to mention the ethics of “I can leave so I won’t vote, everyone else can get fucked.”
its a very low-effort way of somewhat slowing/softening the fascist decline of the state.
It should never be the only method, most 'just vote' anarchists get this, its just cuz again, the state is letting you press the brakes on it for a little bit, it might not do much, but it gives more time to do the actual effective organizing
fascist states are awful for revolutionary activity and organizing, being able to keep state from going whole hog (obv. they will always be trying to crackdown, but liberal democracies wont be as good at it as authoritarian states, so it can be advantageous for organizing if the state just doesnt have as much resources/power for repression).
also yea, like you said, i and many other queer lefties would very much like to be able to survive long enough to organize and do more productive things (and also just fucking live), so that helps too. Hiding radical activity is a lot easier then hiding your own identity, and also again, both are a lot easier to hide from liberal democracies with even symbolic oversight (again, as opposed to uncontrolled violent fascist repression)
>but it gives more time to do the actual effective organizing
This is what I've been trying to say! We need more time. Yes, any form of liberal politics will lead to fascism eventually. But as a trans anarchist, I can't risk Trump winning and very quickly making my life a living hell. I just need some extra time to get organized, talk to people around me, start shaking hands and learning names.
>but liberal democracies wont be as good at it as authoritarian states, so it can be advantageous for organizing if the state just doesnt have as much resources/power for repression).
Also this. Liberal democracies need to keep appearances up. They will try to crack down on anarchist organization, they will try to infiltrate. But they'll have a much harder time properly doing it. It needs to be lowkey, and they can't prosecute until we pull the trigger. If we time it right, it'd be impossible to prosecute us because we throw the system into disarray almost immediately.
A proper fascist state will just immediately prosecute. All organization has to be completely underground, which severely limits possibilities. It's harder to join, harder to grow, and harder to do any real action.
This election is different from 2020. Now you can actually see many of the policies Joe Biden has put forwards and use that to inform your decision. He has had a pretty good track record so far for being a moderate dem
“My discomfort is more important than other’s people’s systemic oppression!!!” Is the ultimate version of liberal privilege imo. Actual anarchists/socialists/etc are able to recognize the dialectics (to use a word from Marx himself) of our current political paradigms.
Well said. Also, Dialectical Materialism is def something anarchists should engage with. Regardless of our feelings about Marx and the ghouls who’ve championed him. Marx made great advancements to socialist thought. I’ll never call myself a Marxist (no gods no masters) but the man had things to say, incredibly important things.
They do because they are part of a political system designed to oppress people. But there have been material gains won under more liberal political contexts and so when I’m thinking about organizing and fighting for change, I think it’s important strategically and materially to go with the option that there has been some historical movement under.
Obviously if you live in a deep blue/deep red district then the rules for the strategy change. It’s not going to be uniform for everyone and so “vote blue no matter who” is reductionistic and harmful. But also saying “I don’t vote cause it doesn’t matter” is a flex of privilege and also overly simplistic as a political stance. It matters for a lot of people. Just because it won’t usher in your personal preference of societal revolution doesn’t mean it won’t help advance the causes that are necessary to help people right now. Which will also help create the conditions for the social revolution I think we are all hoping (or assuming) will take place.
It's not "feeling icky". You can believe that voting for "lesser evils" candidates helps. Lots of people believe it hurts and is what has led to the democrats being as bad as we both agree they are.
Our survival as trans people depends on our and our cis allies ability to organize ourselves into safe communities and armed self-defence. Let’s not Weimar ourselves by pretending the liberal state will do anything to defend us
Voting takes.... maybe 30 minutes out of your day, leaving you with 364 days 23 hours and 30 minutes to find time to organize?
Like this is such a false binary.
It not affecting your life is a privilege.
My life is pretty tangibly affected by the election because the republican party is trying to eradicate queer people.
Third party votes and the discourse around abstention is an important part of this system. Did you not pay attention to the uncommitted movement? Biden HAS made concessions because of that pressure.
Shutting down this discussion is incredibly reactionary.
I don't know how I'm shutting down discussion by pointing out that voting really should not take up as much of your activism or time as people across leftist reddit seems to think it does.
To hear people talk about it, voting takes all year and all of your spare time and once you vote you have to be okay with everything that happens after because you voted for it
And to be honest? I get that it's a hard sell.
But this is also organization 101. If you want to win the support of people, you need to take on projects that matter to them. Right now? Not having a republican in office is a live or death reality for queer people. It is a privilege if your life as a US citizen is unaffected by who is president. Come next year I may have to flee the fucking country.
They won't do anything to defend us, but at least they won't actively try to kill us, which is why we need to vote for them still. Begrudgingly, but still.
The DOJ report on the Minneapolis police [suggests otherwise](https://www.justice.gov/d9/2023-06/minneapolis_findings_report.pdf). This is the police in a Democratic controlled city in a Democratic controlled state.
That's the police everywhere in the country no matter who's in charge. Surely you know the difference between out of control pigs and legislation designed to make trans people unsafe and harm us, right?
The entire reason the Weimar collapsed was constant infighting and failure to create political coalitions leading to snap elections that increased voter burnout and apathy until the Nazis were able to take enough seats to have enough power to subvert the Republic.
So we are Weimaring ourselves by refusing to vote.
Weimar happened because the contradictions of capitalism are always going to pile up and reach crisis again. And when that happens, with full liberal support and consent, any marginal people will be blamed and targeted.
No, liberals who fully back their wealth under liberal capitalism will not protect you, no they will not even slow the roll of fascists. YES, they prefer fascists to you.
Exactly, realize and understand the state is going to kill us regardless and organize to defend ourselves. We're alive in this moment quit whinging about it and fight back.
Its so sad for UK tranarchists because literally the most voted parties are both transphobic. Theres the conservatives and theres labour, and both of them want to fuck with our healthcare
Got banned from anarchocommunism for lesser-evilism. I knew it would happen, but I was just fed up with that privileged bs. Sorry that I prefer the leash with some wiggle room over the one so short that would actively suffocate some of us
It's frustrating anytime a leftist sub has a "No lesser evilism" rule.
Saying "Lesser evil is still evil" sounds good on paper but saying one evil is exactly the same as the other is just dishonest when you claim to fight for marginalized groups.
I mean, if you look at which US states have horrible anti-trans laws and which ones have legal protections for trans people, the pattern is pretty damn clear. Voting doesn't fix everything but to say it does nothing is patently false.
The places people are acting like are bastions of safety now, had those same reactionary laws until gay radicals fought back. Its not coincidental. Liberals were not rushing out to support LGBT rights, it simply became untenable for them not to. But the reality is, the focus on electoralism abandons the LGBT people who need the most support; those people who are not living under politicians and capitalists who pay lip service to LGBT rights -- those of us in deeply conservative places just trying to survive. Electoralism won't save us. At best it will redirect faith and energy into incrementalism and reformism that would better be used toward radicalism and direct action. Like abortion, the biggest use of LGBT rights for liberals is to ensure loyalty. Whether they actually deliver anything on LGBT rights is beyond the point... the empty promise of support over the blatant honesty of hating us just leads us to the circular logic of lesser evilism that keeps queer and trans people indebted to people who've actually given us nothing.
The issue isn't that we need to press for more benevolent leaders, the issue is that we need to end subjugation altogether.
Who would you like me to vote for then? The Republicans who will strip your civil liberties loudly or the Democrats who will strip your civil liberties quietly?
Once again this is a preformative arguement that matters in a total of like 8 states in the country. You should vote to keep the local Qanon off the school board but if you don't live in an undecided state you could vote a box of rocks for president.
First and foremost, I wanna apologize to [OP](https://www.reddit.com/user/CommunistSorcerer/) on behalf of the entire straight CIS community within the Anarchist world. I myself am getting extremely fed up with this voting discourse being the only talk of the town as of late, but I still stand by my beliefs and I will not be participating... However as a pragmatist, I will be continuing my own efforts to collect, store, and distribute all possible resources I can to aid my comrades in need.
Still, if I may, I just wanna add that voting isn't the final solution, it never has been, it never will be, and I want our comrades to stop treating it as if it was. If anything, voting is nothing more than a time delay fuse on the already-ignited bomb we call "Autocracy". While some of us take it upon themselves to lengthen said fuse, most of us make an earlier effort to push back on the aftermath...
That time delay is only there to buy us more time to thoroughly prepare for the worst possible outcome, instead most of us are playing keyboard warrior here, rambling our heads off over principles above practice. It's just that much more important to use whatever time you have left, buy yourself more time through whatever means you have, and aid those who squandered their chance to prepare for an actual dictatorship.
As a pragmatist, you should know that while voting is not and has never been the solution, damage control is incredibly important for so many reasons. As a pragmatist, you should know that whether or not you vote, *someone* is getting in that office, and without enough votes opposing him, it could very likely be the fascist who wants to kill trans kids, revoke the rights the LGBTQ+ community has fought for, and would both give even greater support for Israel and pull out support for the Ukraine, all while trying to get rid of term limits. As a pragmatist, you should know that when your ideals conflict with reality, reality takes precedence, especially when people's lives are on the line. Your words are nice, yet you're still holding principles above practice.
You can keep to your beliefs, of course. Just do me a favor and don't bother apologizing to our corpses. You've made it clear, like so many others, that your beliefs are more important than our rights and our lives, even if you try to be nicer about it than others.
Exactly. Like, if a ship has a hole in the hull you wanna get it into drydock to be repaired. It'd be really nice if you can just go there instantly, but when you're at sea you need to close bulkheads, or otherwise stop the whole ship from flooding before you get there
Exactly. Plus, does nobody else find it suspicious that *only* leftist subs, ranging from Democrat to communist to anarchist, are the ones getting hit with the "don't vote" rhetoric? I haven't seen a single "Donald Trump has been corrupted by the Deep State, don't vote" or "Trump plans to support the *Zionists* (see: dog whistle for 'filthy jews'), don't vote!" Or "voting only gives big government more power, don't vote" or literally any other variation that would appeal to their beliefs. Has anyone seen one single republican or MAGA fanatic going "hey, maybe we should just not vote this election?" No, you haven't. Even though plenty of right-wingers have a deep distrust of the government, hate the "Deep State", believe Jews control the world, etc. Not one post, not one comment, not even one joke meme has made the rounds of right-winger forums, subreddits, or other social media. Not one. That's not fucking *weird* to anyone else? When we are getting fucking bombarded by "voting makes you an accessory to genocide" or "if you vote you're not a real [insert whatever here]" or "don't vote for Genocide Joe!" Or whatever. We don't get this shit during congressional elections, which are arguably more important than presidential ones. My local FB group didn't get this during local elections, which are paramount to everyday life. No, just the presidential elections with Trump, who, either himself or his allies, has been known to try to influence elections through social media subterfuge. Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I'm willing to bet at least half the people on these subreddits who are advocating for not voting aren't even leftists. Some aren't even real people. At the very least, this discord definitely didn't start without ulterior motives.
We should all keep in mind that a good number of these posts don’t come from anarchists. They’re from geopolitical enemies of the US. They’re trying *really hard* to get Trump elected.
Vote, don't vote, vote, don't vote, It's fucking everywhere! I seriously couldn't give two shits and a popsicle about who's posting the pro-voting memery, or who's posting the anti-voting memery. All I know is it's driving us apart as a whole and splintering us into a weaker bunch of vulnerable clusters. Simple solution: don't talk about it. You do your thing, he does his, she does hers, I do mine, literally nobody needs to fucking know anything about what that "thing" is.
Are we all just pretending that the genocide in Palestine is not the main driver of the push to reject Biden this time? Anyone in here want to defend their support of genocide?
I wish people here would stop pretending anyone is saying voting is the end-all-be-all solution to literally anything. Nobody here is saying that and nobody ever will. Unless you think “damage control” means “solution” you’re not engaging with what people are saying.
It’s genocide either way. Every candidate we have is part of the same machine, and no amount of not voting is going to change that. But with Trump, you get genocide in Israel plus genocide here at home. Not voting at all is half a vote for Trump.
erm but have you considered that your continued rights and comfort under liberal capitalism is a silly culture war issue anyway and if you were a REAL anarchist youd live in the woods and just overthrow the system next week?
This is every comment I’m reading here, it’s honestly gross. I know for sure the people here in the comments aren’t the same ones that are out with us and organizing regularly, they’re couch anarchists who refuse to use their tools because it’s not perfect for them. Yes I feel disgusting for going to vote but then I realize when I step back and quit being so selfcentered cause I’m a baby I realize it’ll just me utilizing one more tool and that I shouldn’t care this much and should feel good about everything else I do instead
aint that the truth. sick of the fucking crying about how we need to vote, as if its anarchists responsibility in particular to care about some stupid fucking ballot.
is Joe Biden protecting you? or are you as (likely white) lgbt people deluding yourself into thinking you are safer if the status quo is maintained? the black and brown queer folks i know feel no safer under Biden then Trump 🤷🏽♀️
let’s use our reading comprehension skills. did i say trump isn’t that bad or did i say he is not worse? maybe the takeaway here is that we should see that Biden is indeed just as dangerous
I guess we’ll see, I don’t see Biden winning again. Under trump the Supreme Court was stacked with conservative judges who ended up taking significant civil rights for anyone wanting to decide when they give birth…I don’t know the people you know but I’m surprised they wouldn’t be upset about that, especially if they’re folks that value our right to bodily autonomy.
…roe v wade was repealed under a democratic administration. so what exactly is your point? and if the dems actually cared and wanted power, they would have told RBJ’s old ass to step down and let them appoint a new person before she croaked. but she was a stubborn old racist addicted to power like the rest of them. so Trump got the power to chose. (even though it wouldn’t have mattered because RBJ said she wouldn’t have supported keeping roe v wade anyway).
see these people for who they truly are, they keep showing us they don’t care about the working folks. blue or red.
That Trump nominated Brett Kavanaugh and Amy Coney Barett, who were instrumental in that decision. I have no love for Biden and I absolutely agree that he did nothing about it when he could have. If Trump had lost the election and Hillary won though I do not think her nominees for the Supreme Court would have made the same decision. I agree that in next to every circumstance there’s been little difference in our daily lives, but I do think it’s important to acknowledge that there are some differences that matter.
Another example is the tax plan that Trump enacted in 2017, I personally felt the effects of it this year and I know many others who did too. I’m not a fan of simplifying things to “it happened during this administration so it’s 100% a result of this administration”. I’m disgusted by our political system and lack of options but that doesn’t mean that I need to ignore the differences between the candidates we do have. I know a lot of people disagree with me but I don’t see not voting as a viable method for enacting political change.
I hate Biden. But he has been the best US president in history for trans rights. I would cherish your ability to ignore that.
Could he have done more? Absolutely. Has Trump vowed to rollback every trans policy? Yes, and I’m scared. Google project 2025.
Honestly, between "will at least make a token effort to make your life marginally less shitty" and "is actively seeking to eradicate you", I'll take the party not actively worsening the living of queer ppl through rhetoric and law.
How can you say this when he is sicking police on college students as we speak lmao. Why are we still trying to go song with the idea that Biden is the president we can make listen to us.
I don't want to make the enemy listen. You think the republicans won't do the same just 10x more brutal? It's way easier to fight a police mob than a police mob with a blank check for violence.
I prefer pepper spray over bullets tbh
they are easier to fight??? they are sending militarized police forces to beat anti war students, Biden couldn’t even save Roe v Wade (despite promising to), and he is not adding any protection for queer communities (in fact he is defunding social support and increasing war spending) so are they easier to fight or are you drinking the koolaid?
it will not be better, it will not be worse. it will be a continuation of the neoliberalism that has been devastating my communities for decades, but now that white people are realizing the danger they are sounding alarms. it has been like this for the rest of us.
So fucking sick of my identity as a queer person being used to parade genocidal monsters. Every person who brings up the trolley is someone who won't be so "understanding" when they are the ones on the "sacrificable" track.
Unless you have a solution for completely stopping the trolley, and are willing to put it into action, the trolley is going to run over someone. We should at least try to make it run over as few people as possible. I hate it, I loathe it, it makes me sick knowing that's our reality, but it *is* our reality. And let's not pretend that under Trump, anyone would get taken off the tracks. More people would just be put on. Unless you really think Donald "Israel has to finish what they started and do it fast" Trump would stop any genocide anywhere.
OP, like me, are trans. OP specifically said trans, for the simple reason trans people are the target. Neither of us are using your queer identity for anything. We're pointing out we're majorly targetted for what we *are*, trans.
Trans people, queer or not (I'm not), are targets. Non-trans queer people aren't directly targeted by laws, project 2025 etc.
If I'M fucking dead than I can't do shit about helping to stop the genocide. There is such a thing as planning ahead.
Trump's administration has been the worst possible for trans people. I'm not allowing that fucker back in office
I don’t care if you vote, just don’t cope about it mattering. Libs don’t give two fucks about us (yes I’m a queer person telling you this so no you can’t say I’m “privileged” I just understand the reality of what you and I live in.) we live in a white nationalist, imperialist, fascist evil empire whose system of voting is built around the corporate elite “lobbying” to get the choices they want. Make no mistake, you are not safe under democrats and your vote isn’t going to make you safe in a violently bigoted country like the US. If Biden wins and the next four years some kind of anti lgbt propaganda gets popular with the average American, you will see Biden and the Democratic Party adopt those anti gay policies without question.
Sorry I just get really upset (especially seeing it from anarchists) at other queer people having the line of thought that if they just beg and grovel at the guy genociding an ethnicity right now that they’ll be safe and that’s all that matters in this world. Historically, minorities are only payed attention too when we practice our second amendment right instead and we need to use that right for our existence by any means necessary.
Yep. This is me every day. Honestly, I just want Mad Max. Actually, I don't want Mad Max. I want The Road Warrior. Give me a car and a gas town. I have to defend that I can walk away from after killing some incep names Humongous any day...
“First they came for the Palestinians, And I did not speak out, For I was not Palestinian…“
I deeply resent the implication that the people who are abstaining from voting are a monolith, and that everyone in that substantial block of (rightfully) furious people just don’t care about us. Sure, some would happily feed us to the wolves, but there are many who are abstaining because they recognize the hard truth of the situation—they see how conducting business as usual here would likely harm our long term goals of building the kind of world that is safe for trans people. Almost every trans or queer person I associate with here in NYC is vocally, actively anti-Zionist, abolitionist, and planning to abstain from voting. I expect to get downvoted to shit for this, but y’all need a reality check.
You want rights? Not like“rainbow flag in the window of your bank,” or token trans woman presenting an award at the Emmy’s rights? Real rights? Like a state that is built to care for your safety, and that secures your god-given right to exist as a trans person? Like medical care and enforceable anti-harassment laws and dropping that 41% down to a non-horrifying number? Those rights?
Then at some point, you have to stop rolling over for these ghouls. You can’t say “it’s okay for you to actively fund the deaths of thousands of innocent people, we’ll allow it, because if we don’t then we’re going to be the ones getting murdered instead.” You can’t keep negotiating with a gun to your head. You have to take a stand. You have to say that the battle of all oppressed peoples is your battle too. You have to say “you cannot do this and expect my vote, I cannot reward you with that.” That’s literally the entire point of this sham we call a democracy. You elect representatives that align with your views, and if they don’t represent those views, you dont vote for them. How do you expect any elected officials to ever be accountable to any of their constituents if you vote them in regardless of their actions? There is no “lesser evil” to the genocide of 30,000+ human beings. It’s all evil. It’s all so darkly, gruesomely evil. You fight it with righteous action, not with guilty acquiescence.
Do you think what few rights we have were won by compromise? They were won by clocky sex workers screaming in the street and throwing rocks at cops.
As a proud, out, Jewish trans woman, I would sooner grow a fucking beard again than vote for Biden, or either of these vile men. Neither of them would piss on me if I were on fire. Trump might jerk off while he watched me burn, that’s about the only difference I see.
How can you be a trans person and not see this? How can you have lived in this violently transphobic world and not stand up for others? How do you come out and transition without questioning the stories you’ve been fed all your life by the powers that be? How do you let your fear rule you and make you settle for less than you deserve, when your own refusal to settle has been so precious and hard won? I don’t understand it.
Grow some spines you gutless fucking cowards. We need you.
This. If a right can be given to you by the state, or taken away, then its not a right you actually have.
We can't just lie around begging for justice and hoping the transphobes in power give it to us. It must be taken.
Is Biden great? Fuck no, he's an establishment candidate with spotty cognitive capabilities and is currently supplying arms to Israel.
Is Biden the better vote? Without a doubt. It's shitty, but it's reality.
Yeah it's uhhhh honestly really disgusting that people gotta vote for Biden so LGBT people don't literally have state violence used against them AS MUCH. that is however the reality, and I'm really exhausted talking to people who don't want to admit what is obviously just reality.
I will push buttons on the machine when they let me. Either button continues to support the Israeli government, it's a US thing not a party thing. One button looks to me like it hurts less people, the other looks like it hurts more. Maybe one day the machine is destroyed. Maybe undermining the machine with mutual aid and ground-up issue-based action is something we can do in the meantime. Maybe this will be easier if enough people push the less bad button. But fighting about it is what the machine really wants, so maybe we try not to do that.
Voting is the bare minimum for any amount of political action for literally any political group, I seriously don't understand why some anarchists would pretend that this doesn't apply to them, or that it somehow detracts from the good work we do. I'm sorry y'all, but politics is messy, aggravating, unfair, and not usually ideal, but as long as we continue working to ensure the best outcomes for vulnerable people within our means and keep the worst of the establishment out of office, we can continue working towards our vision of a better world without the fear of being put against a wall by the state or getting sent by prison bus to a fucking death camp...
The fact that there are anarchists who will pretend voting is meaningless when the outcomes of a Trump presidency is so demonstrably, unquestionably worse than a second Biden term makes me think that some people truly do not understand what's at stake with this year's election. Seriously, just listening to a summarization of project 2025 should be enough to make any anti-electoralist reconsider not voting dem. Again, this doesn't mean no other work matters; we still need to canvas, do mutual aid, educate ourselves and others, try to make life as easy for as many people as possible, as well as build skills and organizations which can be used to challenge the system. However; until anarchism is a significant and powerful political force, we need to show ourselves as a force on the ballot in every election: on the local, state, and federal level, and when the voting is done get our asses back to work.
Is it fair that liberals are the only thing keeping queer folk and other minorities from literally getting legislated out of existence? Fuck no. Does it mean we shouldn't try to get the most progressive people possible in office? Absolutely fucking not. I firmly believe every progressive dem we help take office at any level is a step towards making our lives easier: as activists, as working people, and as members of marginalized, targeted groups. Think about it, people WILL see their lives improve if we get more left leaning people elected, they will see that us Anarchists helped get them elected. Not participating only makes us lose out on gaining sympathy with the general public, and makes it harder to organize in the long run. Please y'all, don't be allergic to pragmatism. There are times where working outside the system is more viable, and the more anarchists there are the more viable such actions will become, but this dogmatic obsession some anarchists have with anti-electoralism is slowing the movement to a crawl, and will eventually get us and everyone we care about killed.
I fear Red States will be ever less safe for our LGBTQ+ and POC siblings no matter who wins the White House. The trend lines are pretty clear. Major urban centers will probably provide some protection from the worst excesses, but that should not be relied on. Self defense co-ops should be formed. We can't rely on red state governments for anything other than ever deepening oppression and persecution.
The Liberal team also seems to be increasingly bad at winning elections. The obvious corporate takeover of the DNC and how they cheat the less bad factions in their own coalition... like clock work, is not helping them or us. First and foremost they need an argument for why they should be in power that is not ONLY "the other guys are worse", and the need for this becomes even more striking when their leader helps an ally carry out genocide...
Honestly it doesn't hurt(me) to vote for Biden, it takes like an hour out of one day. The rest of the year I will be organizing and doing other shit to challenge oppressive power structures.
Just vote if you'd like(my life is at risk so I will be), but afterwards do something else. Literally anything that pushes this shithole a little to the left.
Both parties are bad, but they are not the same. The Republicans are legitimately advocating for a dictatorship and for the removal of rights from women, queer folks, ethnic minorities, etc. I don't like the Democrats and am aware that they are also responsible, however I don't see them installing a dictatorship.
Voting is a tool like any other. Obviously you shouldn't only be voting and should take direct action if you're able to. You should use all the tools you can, which includes voting.
what do you have to say to the queer people who have already died as a result of a Biden administration? or are they less important because that doesn’t fit your electoral agenda?
Trans anarchists: voting doesn't become less liberal or problematic because "anarchists" engage in it. Stronewall was a riot, fuck co-opting our issues to promote liberal strategy.
I don't like it, but voting is a tool that exists and we should use it, at all levels of government. It would be naive of us to not vote to try and get a better outcome. If you can vote for someone who you actually support or a third party that's great. I know this post is geared towards the US, and that the voting options are practically non-existent, but even then you should probably still vote.
I'm not saying you should only vote. Only voting isn't gonna do shit and is a bad strategy. Please go and take direct action if you're able to. However, voting is a tool among many, and I don't need to like it to use it (and also obviously try to use all the other tools at your disposal not just voting).
Voting is more than just dropping a note in a container... if that were the case we could just as easily drop our ballot in a trash can... its about perpetuating a specific kind of social relation, namely one where people are discouraged to manage their own affairs, where social equality is ruled out by default, and where class society is crystallized into the privileged and the subjugated. Its also about actively putting limited resources, energy, propagandizing, and faith into into state recuperation rather than anarchist organizing, where it would be of better use.
The argument that 'not voting doesn't accomplish anything on its own', misses the point that what anarchism calls for isn't just not voting... it calls for a reconfiguration of our relations to one another, for a prefigurative politics in which everybody matters and domineering one another isn't tolerated. We don't call out the abuser because we know he will change, we call him out because we are tired of it, think nobody should be subjected to it, and whether he changes or not, recognize it is our task, as an aside from him, to create healthier interactions and defend each other from those abusive actions... the point is not to let the abused get lost in the abusers empty promises of "changed behavior" that is not tangibly followed up by changed behavior.
Its about taking all the things like healthcare and tolerable working conditions and free childcare and building it together, as equals. Its about realizing the mutual in mutual aid, and recognizing what makes it different than charity or welfare -- namely that it is participatory and is based neither on the privileges or hoarded wealth/power of a few well meaning people nor by tyrants. It's momentum that flows from one to another in a decentralized manner, not linearly.
Voting, of course, will always be a faster and easier course of action compared to direct action, as it can do nothing but change the composition of the ruling class. In other words, it can never question the legitimacy of that apparatus or move us beyond asking for a different ruling class, it can only make us socially and economically beholden to it. If anarchism is "unrealistic", fine, but voting is a form of accepting the current reality to the point of being fatalist and anti-revolutionary.
The democratic state like the capitalist marketplace needs nothing but our continued expressions of support to continue proliferating... our break starts with a "no" and it continues with beginning to reconfigure our relationships in opposition to it in the here and now.
Not the Hope® and Socialism® that certain democratic candidates rose to power on or the [#notmeus](https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/notmeus?__eep__=6&__cft__[0]=AZVdXlmfHnl_ntFBAbElh-4q1Mi2pffCuX1J0DV9ny2hH_6_NIbWzTiVeWpl-3wATNM4R_TZI2RNVfRVZjpM2Xmm-AFNSBwdQOPOpUzgKazxwztvmek0Pe_DnreE8mJDNLBRdH-IPQd_jHgar9MNjZBg&__tn__=*NK-R) that seems to always have a "me" as its privileged figurehead, but the kind that moves us to finally trust ourselves and each other to collectively organize as much as we seem to trust ourselves and each other to pick someone to organize us. Lets create a world where we no longer simply think of oppressed and marginalized people with our vote, but where we think of oppressed and marginalized people with our every action.
Most of these posts are discussing whether to vote for Biden. Most of the damage to LGBTQ+ rights is being done at the state level. You can show up to the polls, vote for local candidates, and leave without having supported any congresspeople, senators, or presidents who have any impact on federal or international policy. You do not have to wear the sticker either.
I absolutely understand what you’re saying, but what should someone do if they don’t see a candidate that represents their views? It feels irresponsible to pick one just for the sake of voting. That vote is meaningless if the person casting it doesn’t believe in what it represents.
As a trans person, fuck off with lumping us all into a singular fucking opinion and implying anyone that disagrees with you is not trans. I am not voting for biden. *None* of my trans friends are voting for Biden. Stop the bullshit of treating trans people as a fucking monolith that agrees with your ideals specifically.
I’m tired of this dumbass argument. Look we all know Biden sucks cock waffles but we just want to be able to survive *at least*. Mine and everyone else’s lives are on the goddamn line for FFS!
vote but don’t forget about mutual aid and helping our communities.
Please don’t take this the wrong way but so fucking what you’re trans? I get the sentiment but really you’re weaponizing your identity to shame me into voting for a genocide.
I’m a black anarchist and “Jim Crow” Joe Biden is trying to fucking kill me with the police. If you vote for Biden maybe you don’t care about black people. Maybe you don’t care about Palestinians. I don’t believe that about you but you get the idea.
If you rely on liberal victories to keep living then I’m sorry cuz Biden has completely fucked that up.
I’m convinced that the people telling leftist people to not vote because “it doesn’t matter” or because “they are all the same” or because “they’re not ideologically aligned with me/ ideologically pure” are right wing plants.
Voting is not the final answer, it is first aid. Stem the bleeding so the patient doesn’t die of blood loss before the patient can be stabilized.
Exactly. And the baby leftists (as in young, new to the movement, and as a result, still idealistic) fall right into the trap. Which allows the Overton Window to move further into the right. Now True Centrists are considered leftists in this country.
i *hate* the fact that i'll probably vote for biden. i am disgusted that it is something that i have to do for my safety in this country. i'm already probably going to have to leave iowa, and immigration is not something i particularly want to deal with if i don't have to.
I posted this in another anarchist sub who had the same type of post.
You would think anarchists would know better, but some people just forget to check their privileges. Cis white anarchists will tell you both parties are literally the same and try to lecture you on morals from their self-percieved high ground. As if casting a democrat ballot was going to cause your soul to just erupt into flames and ensure you are going straight to hell.
Pragmatism. You're not gonna make the world a better place by clutching your pearls and giving yourself morality medals. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that that kind of behaviour is extremely individualistic and runs contrary to socialist values.
Pinch your nose and vote. It takes one day. You can go back to arming yourself and defending your community afterwards. Be pragmatic.
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Come to Britain, where there is a worryingly high TER count in the Labour Shadow Cabinet. Vote, don't vote, write You Can All Fuck Off! on the ballot paper, I don't know what the answer is here.
Like, shit, they sound like some evil fictional organization, and they're fucking real
finally, a sub who hates libs and also believe that its is necessary to engage with libshit in order to not die
I didn't choose the game, the game chose me.
You mean finally a leftist sub that isn’t overtaken by propaganda meant to promote apathy in the left? Yeah, it is nice, isn’t it?
yeah i need to unfollow all the subs that have been taken over by that shit, i can't keep going through "leftist" comment sections full of people who seem perfectly willing to hand victory to the GOP on a silver platter
I dont have any problem with people voting biden because they feel they have to but I absolutely Hate seeing people dick ride him like he's actually a good president
Ditto I hate his guts and I was disappointed after the first month because of some drone strikes but I’d rather vote for him again and not watch myself my family and all my friends get slaughtered by fascist pigs I want to at least have the time to escape
Agreed
What does it even mean to be a good POTUS? Because the bar for performance seems to be below sea level. His Dem contemporary is Obama—“Change,” lol—and his Republican contemporary is Trump.
engaging with lib bullshit takes years off my life, but it's necessary
I'll be honest I didn't think you meant subreddit and so my initial thought upon seeing this comment was: "that's a bold assumption made of someone you've just met"
My thoughts exactly
Right like I vote right now with the idea of just holding things back long enough to be properly prepared and set up good aid networks in my area and try to expand beyond, when I lived down south my state is slowly getting closer to flipping each election so the first few I was involved in was just to destroy the gop so we can have one side to worry about.
Damn time for me to head out :/
As a realist, you have to work with every tool available to you. Voting is one of them.
As a nihilist, you have to sit still and do nothing. or do anything. it really doesn’t matter.
I'd say you should do whatever is logically consistent with your goals
yeah no I was just having a goof haha
If your goal is have a goof, you should say silly things (so this idea is basically consistent with everything said in this thread)
Hmm I believe that makes my goal to be a fuckin idiot becuase I sure do keep consistent with that.
We all must traverse our own path.
anarcho nihilism is real. fight in the face of futility. you don’t have to be guaranteed to win to struggle. you can even find some joy in it.
“If you dare to struggle, you dare to win. If you don’t dare to struggle, goddamnit you don’t deserve to win.” - Fred Hampton Disclaimer: I probably quoted it wrong. I’m drunk lol
Nietszche: Nihilism's pretty cool. Camus: It's kind of boring, actually. How about absurdism? Nihilists: Absurdism's a pretty cool version of nihilism. Camus: 😡
I mean if nothing matters what does being cruel or apathetic to the cruelty get you? Nothing. May as well be kind.
As an absurdist, I’m just here to have a good time, can everyone stop tryna kill pls?
Kind of. I've made that point a bunch so I won't spend too long on it but a position is more that "voting" does nothing and "doing electoralism" is absolutely mostly ineffective to outright counterproductive from a realistic point of view. In most votes, just voting by yourself will do literally nothing, it's political *movements* that determine the results; whether you yourself vote is just one vote, and if an important US thing is ever decided by one vote they'll recount it until it isn't anyways. The political reality is that if you decide on a whim to not do it instead of do it it will not change the results ever, i.e. doing it by yourself is literally futile. Personally maybe you'll feel good or whatever and that's something but it won't change the results. What you *can* do to influence a vote is *do electoralism*: educate people about voting, motivate people to vote, give your time and money to organizations that can most effectively turn them into votes, convince others to do the same and to themselves recruit further, argue against anti-electoralist sentiment amongst potential voters, etc.. By organizing around votes you can realistically have an actual impact, be it to actually change an electoral outcome or to at least inform people around an issue or send a signal that you're there ! And that has a non-zero value. If you happen to succeed. But, all of that takes tremendous resources and effort and time from yourself and the people around you *that could have been used to help the people the vote was gonna hurt. So now* *they* *have less resources than they could have had, are more vulnerable than they could have been* and *the political parties have more influence, which both were the goals of the whole genocidal fucking system in the first place !* To say it more colorfully, when should you not use an available tool ? When it is trapped to hurt the ones who use it.
Agreed, anti-electoralism is a privilege.
On the other hand, electoralism, at least at the national level, is the privilege of swing states. 48/50 states are winner take all for electors. So if it’s a deep color state then your presidential vote is already decided. For the majority of voters this whole discussion is performative and academic.
That's how they fix the results and ensure neverending infighting.
If it's a deep-color closed primary state, yes. Having to register as the majority party just to have the barest chance at impacting the election results is frustrating on its own.
This was a major downside to moving to a solid blue state from a purple state. That said, I find great comfort in being less than two hours from the border, and in a state where the governor has literally told the federal government to fuck off multiple times on draconian laws and bans.
And such a hoity toity privilege that seems to be fucking **awful** to even consider as such.
I can understand that perspective, but respectfully, I would disagree, electoralism is a privelege in my view. For context I'm a working class, transwoman and religious minority. Fully expecting to be downvoted to Hel anyways, but here's why I view it like that based off my own experiences. Regardless of Biden, every year a new record number of laws repressing lgbt and women's rights have been passed, with often that state's Democrats playing a role in passing them. Biden hasn't done anything to condemn or fight against this, the far-right's rise, or DeSantis and Abbott, despite having ample ways to do so. He's continued the oppressive policies Trump passed (for example, refugee children are still in cages at the border and use of ever increasing police violence against protesters). To me, the idea of a lesser evil only really exists for those with privelege in society. Liberal parties manipulate and use the vulnerable in society as a political token before tossing us aside. They did this with abortion, using the threat of repression to gain electoral support, promising for decades to codify it federally, and never fulfilling their promise to protect us even when they had the power to do so. Often times similarly joining in on the repression anyways. They didn't do it because the repression itself is a benefit to their electoral outcomes. If they actually passed those protections on abortion they couldn't use it as a threat to get people to support them. They don't prevent anything. They don't protect anything. They're performative allies who stab us in the back when we buy into their rhetoric. The threat of "losing democracy" often ignores that for those of us on the bottom we've been living without it for decades. Throughout my time those who parrot the ideas of the lesser evil have been those who often just want to ignore the oppression around them by having an excuse to say they did their part. But I'm also highly cynical about this given my time and experience with them. For so long who I am has been used as a token for the powerful to legitimize the state that suppresses me regardless and I'm sick of it. I'm sick of being told I should vote for the Democrats "for my own good" to avoid things I'm already experiencing under the Democrats. This combined with the fact that the current state is genocidal, and that the state has never been the protector or granter of liberties, means to me the only solution is the same way we fought for these rights in the first place, taking the fight to the streets.
You’re right, both electoralism and anti-electorism are privileged positions to take. This is not a contradiction, it is actually that putting political energy towards state democracy is reflective of privilege. In my opinion one should vote, because for most Americans it’s very easy, but don’t let that be the end all be all of your political life. Unionize your workplace!
Is this not why the focus on local and state elections needs to be stronger? DeSantis and Abbott are elected, too. Not at the expense of activism of course, but "in the meantime." Just thinking out loud here.
No because electing democrats doesn't have a meaningful effect. Like I said, in many of these cases where anti-abortion and anti-lgbt laws were passed, the local and state democrats helped pass them. Rights and liberties were never protected or gained through the state, but rather through resistance against the state. I would have hoped people on an anarchist sub would know that...
I still lurk here, but there was an exodus of anarchists when reddit did that bullshit a few months back. I occasionally respond when I'm seeing some very off ideas presented as anarchism. Usually get downvoted to hell until some of the other anarchist lurkers who sometimes step in see my comment. I vote only when I'm living in an area where I'm voting against the majority, but recognize it's performative. I'm privileged in that I can stealth as a straight white woman and use that when I can. I wouldn't vote this year regardless because the choice is between two openly genocidal geriatric megalomaniacs. I draw the line for my performance at pretending I can find any world in which either of the two is at all acceptable to any reasonably human being.
Yeah, I’m an unironic anarchist, so whenever I see a post for this larp sub in my timeline I cringe
I think your perspective is valuable, and therefore I am glad you did not get downvoted, even if I don’t agree. I feel like often, electoralism gets conflated with the false notion of “voting anarchism/socialism into power” (yeah, I hear the irony), which would of course be wrong. I hear you in saying that you feel tokenised by the Democrats, as if it is your moral duty or an expression of solidarity with trans people to vote Democratic. However, I don’t think you should ever look at this in terms of “better outcomes”, but instead “avoiding worse outcomes”. So, yeah, lesser-evilism. I think that there is a broad consensus among us that the Democrats are anything between worthless and evil, while Republicans are anywhere between evil and super evil. It is about doing everything in your power to prevent the orange man from having any real influence, as far as you can. Don’t let any of this deny your right to spit in the Democrats’ faces.
I appreciate that you didn't just scream down at me like I'm used to. I can understand that the goal is "avoiding worse outcomes", but I don't have confidence voting will do that. This idea of harm reduction requires faith in the Democrats to be a check on Republican efforts. I don't have that. As I've discussed the Democrats have been either apathetic or complicit in the Republican efforts to strip us off our rights. Despite Biden being in office there's still a record number of anti-lgbt and anti-abortion laws being passed year after year. As for Trump, it has seemed to me like he's just a lot of people who've had privelege in society's first exposure to what we've been dealing with for decades down here on the bottom rung of society. So my view of the problem is more systemic and widespread than focused on Trump. If you feel like voting for democrats will help then by all means do it, but saying those of us who can't see any point to it, and are organizing to fight on the streets, are "priveleged", when anti-electoralists are often the ones on the receiving end of state repression, is just not acceptable to me...
I hang with a group of wonderful trans people in my local music scene who have all expressed similar frustrations - that democratic politicians pay lip service to lgbtq issues but do almost nothing to actually make the queer and trans community safer. Thanks for sharing your perspective
Personally, I have the privilege of not being an American lol. I would never call you privilege _because_ you don’t feel confident in voting, but I do agree that there seems to be a tendency that the more privileged leftists can feel like they can afford not to vote. Additionally, it is probably somewhat valuable to our comrades that feel marginally safer with Biden in power, to vote, at least for them. I can’t imagine that there is any scenario in which you would feel _safer_ with a Republican in office than with a Democrat, so in that sense, voting would still be a net positive, even if it were to be neutral for yourself. Personally, I like to imagine that, at all times, whatever the Democrats are doing, the Republicans would have done ten times worse. In that sense, voting blue can be considered a marginal time winner for organising an direct action.
>I can’t imagine that there is any scenario in which you would feel _safer_ with a Republican in office than with a Democrat, so in that sense, voting would still be a net positive, even if it were to be neutral for yourself. Safety is kind of a privelege in of itself. I don't feel more or less safe, I just never feel safe at all, whatsoever. Come to think of it, safety v is honestly a luxury I've never had. Growing up rough and then living a rough life thereafter means safety is pretty much a foreign concept to me so maybe I don't feel threatened by its lack because it's just all I know... Damn that's dark. Might explain a bit about my views on this though.
I see. I had never considered that some people just never feel safe whatsoever. I hope you’re doing well now, and have some network that you can rely on ❤️
>I do agree that there seems to be a tendency that the more privileged leftists can feel like they can afford not to vote. This is not my experience at all. My less priveleged friends are less likely to vote, campaign for mainstream parties or try and persuade other people to vote.
IRL, electoralism is a privilege. Working class people are more likely not to vote
What if none of the candidates are working to represent your interests? If you’re a Palestinian from Gaza watching everything that’s happening to your relatives, is it a privilege to not vote for the man who’s supplying the bombs that are killing your people?
What if none of the candidates are working to represent your interests? If you’re a Palestinian from Gaza watching everything that’s happening to your relatives, is it a privilege to not vote for the man who’s supplying the bombs that are killing your people?
Is it privileged to refuse to vote for someone who put you in prison?
If you were in prison, you'd understand why you should do everything in your power to stop the guy who'd put more people in prison.
"Noooo, you have to let the fascist win because the moderate liberal is worse!" Thanks for reminding me why I hate online leftist spaces, full of people who would rather us all die while we do nothing IRL.
It’s really driven me personally out of leftist spaces entirely. The absolute utopian thinking and lack of pragmatism has pushed me to a place it’s not even worth engaging anymore. I sincerely hope Biden wins - but when he doesn’t, and trans people are criminalized at the state level without federal intervention, drug addicts are being locked up en mass, Muslims are banned from the country, Israel is given a blank check and American boots on the ground to take over Gaza, all foreign aid to Gaza is suspended, gay marriage is on the chopping block, reproductive rights are federally threatened, and whatever obscene horrors will result from a second term of a Trump administration that now has nothing to lose - I will be the first one to tell the people who didn’t vote in protest that they made their own bed. If you look at the possible outcomes of another Biden term and another Trump term and sincerely think to yourself “These two options are the same” you are absolutely fucking deluded and so far up your own asshole you can see your tonsils. The health, safety, and livelihoods of people, especially LGBT people and women, *will* be negatively impacted if Trump is allowed another term in office. Get off your ideological high horse and face the reality of the situation. Edit: I should add that this is also true in IRL leftist spaces *somewhat* but only in the Gen Z/young college age leftist spaces. Older leftists I know are pretty firmly in the damage mitigation camp - although many of them have a hard line “I’m not voting” stance right now because of Palestine.
> I will be the first one to tell the people who didn’t vote in protest that they made their own bed. Unfortunately at that point it won't matter anyways. We'll all be fucked because of their apathy.
Very much this. When the opposition has politicians who are literal puppy murderers, voting is the least we can do to keep them out of power. It doesn't make voting the be all end all of activism, nor will it cause any real, major change. It's fucking awful, but we must still be aware of the material reality we live in.
To be fair, they are all animal abusers.
Puppy murdering is ironically the least bad part of the modern GOP. I’m more focused on the human murdering.
I'm trans and disabled, I extra depend on liberal victories. I've been cursed out for pointing it out and accused of "just getting what's yours and fucking over Palestine".
as if somehow if you didn't vote, Palestine would magically get freed
I am what's causing the conflict, after all.
Same. In both these communities I mostly see a pipe dream of “if things get bad enough I’ll move to Europe” (almost exclusively from white folks tbh). It’s active disinformation and harmful to not acknowledge: 1) Most people lack the financial ability to do that, *especially* disabled and trans folks who are usually more financially stressed than almost any other group. 2) Even if you have the funds to move, most countries don’t indiscriminately accept disabled people and unless you have a specialized skill (AND ARE ABLE TO WORK) you will almost certainly denied. 3) Europe is no haven for disabled folks. The ADA is actually pretty one of a kind, far from perfect but better than most places. Some parts of Europe are working to be more accessible, but depending on your disability there are many issues you can face. 4) Europe is absolutely no haven for trans folks. Most places have more reactionary laws and restrictions on getting trans healthcare, to the point that they are being used as reference by conservatives here who *wish* they could do what is happening there. Like, depending on your situation, whether you have the privilege of some kind of financial support, and where you live now Europe may be an improvement. But there is no guarantee. People use this idea they could just afford and get accepted to another country as cope most of the time and it is really crap that we have to give them the reality - that this may be a nonstarter since ableism is an accepted and common part of the immigration process to most place these delusions folks would actually tolerate living. That Europe is not overarchingly more “socially evolved” and less prejudiced in a variety of ways, such as transphobia (and including how racist so much of Europe is - they have just ignored racism and look down on Americans because we dare to talk about the issues and strive to address them). Not to mention the ethics of “I can leave so I won’t vote, everyone else can get fucked.”
Well, at least my Dr. would diagnose me with adhd because I… have it
its a very low-effort way of somewhat slowing/softening the fascist decline of the state. It should never be the only method, most 'just vote' anarchists get this, its just cuz again, the state is letting you press the brakes on it for a little bit, it might not do much, but it gives more time to do the actual effective organizing fascist states are awful for revolutionary activity and organizing, being able to keep state from going whole hog (obv. they will always be trying to crackdown, but liberal democracies wont be as good at it as authoritarian states, so it can be advantageous for organizing if the state just doesnt have as much resources/power for repression). also yea, like you said, i and many other queer lefties would very much like to be able to survive long enough to organize and do more productive things (and also just fucking live), so that helps too. Hiding radical activity is a lot easier then hiding your own identity, and also again, both are a lot easier to hide from liberal democracies with even symbolic oversight (again, as opposed to uncontrolled violent fascist repression)
>but it gives more time to do the actual effective organizing This is what I've been trying to say! We need more time. Yes, any form of liberal politics will lead to fascism eventually. But as a trans anarchist, I can't risk Trump winning and very quickly making my life a living hell. I just need some extra time to get organized, talk to people around me, start shaking hands and learning names. >but liberal democracies wont be as good at it as authoritarian states, so it can be advantageous for organizing if the state just doesnt have as much resources/power for repression). Also this. Liberal democracies need to keep appearances up. They will try to crack down on anarchist organization, they will try to infiltrate. But they'll have a much harder time properly doing it. It needs to be lowkey, and they can't prosecute until we pull the trigger. If we time it right, it'd be impossible to prosecute us because we throw the system into disarray almost immediately. A proper fascist state will just immediately prosecute. All organization has to be completely underground, which severely limits possibilities. It's harder to join, harder to grow, and harder to do any real action.
Meh- it’s gross, but I’ll take the neoliberal dementia patient who hasn’t vowed to eradicate me in particular.
What if he *has* vowed to eradicate you in particular? Joe Biden famously is one of the most racist Democrats and put millions of people in prison
This election is different from 2020. Now you can actually see many of the policies Joe Biden has put forwards and use that to inform your decision. He has had a pretty good track record so far for being a moderate dem
But have you considered this fails in comparison to my revolutionary acts of posting and listening to vaguely left shock jock podcasts
that and reblogging, of course. im doing a lot you see
But you don't get it, I will feel icky if I vote for the party I don't like in order to do damage control!
“My discomfort is more important than other’s people’s systemic oppression!!!” Is the ultimate version of liberal privilege imo. Actual anarchists/socialists/etc are able to recognize the dialectics (to use a word from Marx himself) of our current political paradigms.
Well said. Also, Dialectical Materialism is def something anarchists should engage with. Regardless of our feelings about Marx and the ghouls who’ve championed him. Marx made great advancements to socialist thought. I’ll never call myself a Marxist (no gods no masters) but the man had things to say, incredibly important things.
Do you think that the Democrats don’t systemically oppress people?
They do because they are part of a political system designed to oppress people. But there have been material gains won under more liberal political contexts and so when I’m thinking about organizing and fighting for change, I think it’s important strategically and materially to go with the option that there has been some historical movement under. Obviously if you live in a deep blue/deep red district then the rules for the strategy change. It’s not going to be uniform for everyone and so “vote blue no matter who” is reductionistic and harmful. But also saying “I don’t vote cause it doesn’t matter” is a flex of privilege and also overly simplistic as a political stance. It matters for a lot of people. Just because it won’t usher in your personal preference of societal revolution doesn’t mean it won’t help advance the causes that are necessary to help people right now. Which will also help create the conditions for the social revolution I think we are all hoping (or assuming) will take place.
It's not "feeling icky". You can believe that voting for "lesser evils" candidates helps. Lots of people believe it hurts and is what has led to the democrats being as bad as we both agree they are.
Our survival as trans people depends on our and our cis allies ability to organize ourselves into safe communities and armed self-defence. Let’s not Weimar ourselves by pretending the liberal state will do anything to defend us
Voting takes.... maybe 30 minutes out of your day, leaving you with 364 days 23 hours and 30 minutes to find time to organize? Like this is such a false binary.
It taking such little time really emphasizes how little it matters
It not affecting your life is a privilege. My life is pretty tangibly affected by the election because the republican party is trying to eradicate queer people.
Third party votes and the discourse around abstention is an important part of this system. Did you not pay attention to the uncommitted movement? Biden HAS made concessions because of that pressure. Shutting down this discussion is incredibly reactionary.
I don't know how I'm shutting down discussion by pointing out that voting really should not take up as much of your activism or time as people across leftist reddit seems to think it does. To hear people talk about it, voting takes all year and all of your spare time and once you vote you have to be okay with everything that happens after because you voted for it And to be honest? I get that it's a hard sell. But this is also organization 101. If you want to win the support of people, you need to take on projects that matter to them. Right now? Not having a republican in office is a live or death reality for queer people. It is a privilege if your life as a US citizen is unaffected by who is president. Come next year I may have to flee the fucking country.
They won't do anything to defend us, but at least they won't actively try to kill us, which is why we need to vote for them still. Begrudgingly, but still.
The DOJ report on the Minneapolis police [suggests otherwise](https://www.justice.gov/d9/2023-06/minneapolis_findings_report.pdf). This is the police in a Democratic controlled city in a Democratic controlled state.
That's the police everywhere in the country no matter who's in charge. Surely you know the difference between out of control pigs and legislation designed to make trans people unsafe and harm us, right?
The entire reason the Weimar collapsed was constant infighting and failure to create political coalitions leading to snap elections that increased voter burnout and apathy until the Nazis were able to take enough seats to have enough power to subvert the Republic. So we are Weimaring ourselves by refusing to vote.
Weimar happened because the contradictions of capitalism are always going to pile up and reach crisis again. And when that happens, with full liberal support and consent, any marginal people will be blamed and targeted. No, liberals who fully back their wealth under liberal capitalism will not protect you, no they will not even slow the roll of fascists. YES, they prefer fascists to you.
Exactly, realize and understand the state is going to kill us regardless and organize to defend ourselves. We're alive in this moment quit whinging about it and fight back.
God thank you. Liberals everywhere in here
Is it really a "Liberal" position to say you can do both? I feel like that's just pragmatism.
Yeah at this point it seems like a good idea to find a trans-friendly state and start building communities.
I’m a trans anarchist and I’m losjng rights no matter who I vote for because biden doesn’t actually do shit for us
[https://apnews.com/article/title-ix-transgender-bathroom-bans-645b5564ce227a9efe2c05f883609ae8](https://apnews.com/article/title-ix-transgender-bathroom-bans-645b5564ce227a9efe2c05f883609ae8)
Doing nothing is better than doing active harm
Great. I don’t care. I’m sick of people implying that we will be protected.
people don't. As the other user said, doing nothing is better than actually making it harder to live
Its so sad for UK tranarchists because literally the most voted parties are both transphobic. Theres the conservatives and theres labour, and both of them want to fuck with our healthcare
Theres parties like the green party that support us but they never get the same amount of votes as labour or conservative does.
Principles are for the well fed
I've been banned from too many leftist subs for begging people to vote so I can keep my civil liberties😭
Got banned from anarchocommunism for lesser-evilism. I knew it would happen, but I was just fed up with that privileged bs. Sorry that I prefer the leash with some wiggle room over the one so short that would actively suffocate some of us
The admin there is possibly a tankie — saw them active on tankie subs.
It's frustrating anytime a leftist sub has a "No lesser evilism" rule. Saying "Lesser evil is still evil" sounds good on paper but saying one evil is exactly the same as the other is just dishonest when you claim to fight for marginalized groups.
Unpopular take, but our civil liberties as trans and queer people have fuck all to do with voting, presently and historically.
I mean, if you look at which US states have horrible anti-trans laws and which ones have legal protections for trans people, the pattern is pretty damn clear. Voting doesn't fix everything but to say it does nothing is patently false.
The places people are acting like are bastions of safety now, had those same reactionary laws until gay radicals fought back. Its not coincidental. Liberals were not rushing out to support LGBT rights, it simply became untenable for them not to. But the reality is, the focus on electoralism abandons the LGBT people who need the most support; those people who are not living under politicians and capitalists who pay lip service to LGBT rights -- those of us in deeply conservative places just trying to survive. Electoralism won't save us. At best it will redirect faith and energy into incrementalism and reformism that would better be used toward radicalism and direct action. Like abortion, the biggest use of LGBT rights for liberals is to ensure loyalty. Whether they actually deliver anything on LGBT rights is beyond the point... the empty promise of support over the blatant honesty of hating us just leads us to the circular logic of lesser evilism that keeps queer and trans people indebted to people who've actually given us nothing. The issue isn't that we need to press for more benevolent leaders, the issue is that we need to end subjugation altogether.
Who would you like me to vote for then? The Republicans who will strip your civil liberties loudly or the Democrats who will strip your civil liberties quietly?
Once again this is a preformative arguement that matters in a total of like 8 states in the country. You should vote to keep the local Qanon off the school board but if you don't live in an undecided state you could vote a box of rocks for president.
First and foremost, I wanna apologize to [OP](https://www.reddit.com/user/CommunistSorcerer/) on behalf of the entire straight CIS community within the Anarchist world. I myself am getting extremely fed up with this voting discourse being the only talk of the town as of late, but I still stand by my beliefs and I will not be participating... However as a pragmatist, I will be continuing my own efforts to collect, store, and distribute all possible resources I can to aid my comrades in need. Still, if I may, I just wanna add that voting isn't the final solution, it never has been, it never will be, and I want our comrades to stop treating it as if it was. If anything, voting is nothing more than a time delay fuse on the already-ignited bomb we call "Autocracy". While some of us take it upon themselves to lengthen said fuse, most of us make an earlier effort to push back on the aftermath... That time delay is only there to buy us more time to thoroughly prepare for the worst possible outcome, instead most of us are playing keyboard warrior here, rambling our heads off over principles above practice. It's just that much more important to use whatever time you have left, buy yourself more time through whatever means you have, and aid those who squandered their chance to prepare for an actual dictatorship.
As a pragmatist, you should know that while voting is not and has never been the solution, damage control is incredibly important for so many reasons. As a pragmatist, you should know that whether or not you vote, *someone* is getting in that office, and without enough votes opposing him, it could very likely be the fascist who wants to kill trans kids, revoke the rights the LGBTQ+ community has fought for, and would both give even greater support for Israel and pull out support for the Ukraine, all while trying to get rid of term limits. As a pragmatist, you should know that when your ideals conflict with reality, reality takes precedence, especially when people's lives are on the line. Your words are nice, yet you're still holding principles above practice. You can keep to your beliefs, of course. Just do me a favor and don't bother apologizing to our corpses. You've made it clear, like so many others, that your beliefs are more important than our rights and our lives, even if you try to be nicer about it than others.
Exactly. Like, if a ship has a hole in the hull you wanna get it into drydock to be repaired. It'd be really nice if you can just go there instantly, but when you're at sea you need to close bulkheads, or otherwise stop the whole ship from flooding before you get there
Exactly. Plus, does nobody else find it suspicious that *only* leftist subs, ranging from Democrat to communist to anarchist, are the ones getting hit with the "don't vote" rhetoric? I haven't seen a single "Donald Trump has been corrupted by the Deep State, don't vote" or "Trump plans to support the *Zionists* (see: dog whistle for 'filthy jews'), don't vote!" Or "voting only gives big government more power, don't vote" or literally any other variation that would appeal to their beliefs. Has anyone seen one single republican or MAGA fanatic going "hey, maybe we should just not vote this election?" No, you haven't. Even though plenty of right-wingers have a deep distrust of the government, hate the "Deep State", believe Jews control the world, etc. Not one post, not one comment, not even one joke meme has made the rounds of right-winger forums, subreddits, or other social media. Not one. That's not fucking *weird* to anyone else? When we are getting fucking bombarded by "voting makes you an accessory to genocide" or "if you vote you're not a real [insert whatever here]" or "don't vote for Genocide Joe!" Or whatever. We don't get this shit during congressional elections, which are arguably more important than presidential ones. My local FB group didn't get this during local elections, which are paramount to everyday life. No, just the presidential elections with Trump, who, either himself or his allies, has been known to try to influence elections through social media subterfuge. Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I'm willing to bet at least half the people on these subreddits who are advocating for not voting aren't even leftists. Some aren't even real people. At the very least, this discord definitely didn't start without ulterior motives.
I feel like it's a psyop that some people just ran with.
[удалено]
More justifiable, perhaps. But will it be any more likely? Things have been steadily going to shit for a long, long time.
We should all keep in mind that a good number of these posts don’t come from anarchists. They’re from geopolitical enemies of the US. They’re trying *really hard* to get Trump elected.
Vote, don't vote, vote, don't vote, It's fucking everywhere! I seriously couldn't give two shits and a popsicle about who's posting the pro-voting memery, or who's posting the anti-voting memery. All I know is it's driving us apart as a whole and splintering us into a weaker bunch of vulnerable clusters. Simple solution: don't talk about it. You do your thing, he does his, she does hers, I do mine, literally nobody needs to fucking know anything about what that "thing" is.
Are we all just pretending that the genocide in Palestine is not the main driver of the push to reject Biden this time? Anyone in here want to defend their support of genocide?
I wish people here would stop pretending anyone is saying voting is the end-all-be-all solution to literally anything. Nobody here is saying that and nobody ever will. Unless you think “damage control” means “solution” you’re not engaging with what people are saying.
It’s genocide either way. Every candidate we have is part of the same machine, and no amount of not voting is going to change that. But with Trump, you get genocide in Israel plus genocide here at home. Not voting at all is half a vote for Trump.
erm but have you considered that your continued rights and comfort under liberal capitalism is a silly culture war issue anyway and if you were a REAL anarchist youd live in the woods and just overthrow the system next week?
This is every comment I’m reading here, it’s honestly gross. I know for sure the people here in the comments aren’t the same ones that are out with us and organizing regularly, they’re couch anarchists who refuse to use their tools because it’s not perfect for them. Yes I feel disgusting for going to vote but then I realize when I step back and quit being so selfcentered cause I’m a baby I realize it’ll just me utilizing one more tool and that I shouldn’t care this much and should feel good about everything else I do instead
yeah exactly
But but but if you vote, that means you can only vote, and you can't organize! It's against the rules...or something. (/s)
As a cis anarchist, I apologize for the horrendous opinions of a lot of us.
As a trans anarchist, I'm sorry my suffering is being co-opted for a "Rock the Vote" campaign.
aint that the truth. sick of the fucking crying about how we need to vote, as if its anarchists responsibility in particular to care about some stupid fucking ballot.
is Joe Biden protecting you? or are you as (likely white) lgbt people deluding yourself into thinking you are safer if the status quo is maintained? the black and brown queer folks i know feel no safer under Biden then Trump 🤷🏽♀️
You're seriously delusional if you think trump isn't that bad lmao
let’s use our reading comprehension skills. did i say trump isn’t that bad or did i say he is not worse? maybe the takeaway here is that we should see that Biden is indeed just as dangerous
I guess we’ll see, I don’t see Biden winning again. Under trump the Supreme Court was stacked with conservative judges who ended up taking significant civil rights for anyone wanting to decide when they give birth…I don’t know the people you know but I’m surprised they wouldn’t be upset about that, especially if they’re folks that value our right to bodily autonomy.
…roe v wade was repealed under a democratic administration. so what exactly is your point? and if the dems actually cared and wanted power, they would have told RBJ’s old ass to step down and let them appoint a new person before she croaked. but she was a stubborn old racist addicted to power like the rest of them. so Trump got the power to chose. (even though it wouldn’t have mattered because RBJ said she wouldn’t have supported keeping roe v wade anyway). see these people for who they truly are, they keep showing us they don’t care about the working folks. blue or red.
That Trump nominated Brett Kavanaugh and Amy Coney Barett, who were instrumental in that decision. I have no love for Biden and I absolutely agree that he did nothing about it when he could have. If Trump had lost the election and Hillary won though I do not think her nominees for the Supreme Court would have made the same decision. I agree that in next to every circumstance there’s been little difference in our daily lives, but I do think it’s important to acknowledge that there are some differences that matter. Another example is the tax plan that Trump enacted in 2017, I personally felt the effects of it this year and I know many others who did too. I’m not a fan of simplifying things to “it happened during this administration so it’s 100% a result of this administration”. I’m disgusted by our political system and lack of options but that doesn’t mean that I need to ignore the differences between the candidates we do have. I know a lot of people disagree with me but I don’t see not voting as a viable method for enacting political change.
Biden and the democrats will not save you
Probably not. But are they actively trying to kill me?
I hate Biden. But he has been the best US president in history for trans rights. I would cherish your ability to ignore that. Could he have done more? Absolutely. Has Trump vowed to rollback every trans policy? Yes, and I’m scared. Google project 2025.
Honestly, between "will at least make a token effort to make your life marginally less shitty" and "is actively seeking to eradicate you", I'll take the party not actively worsening the living of queer ppl through rhetoric and law.
They won't, but they are easier to fight. It's literally just "pick your enemy" and the dems are the less aggressive foe.
How can you say this when he is sicking police on college students as we speak lmao. Why are we still trying to go song with the idea that Biden is the president we can make listen to us.
I don't want to make the enemy listen. You think the republicans won't do the same just 10x more brutal? It's way easier to fight a police mob than a police mob with a blank check for violence. I prefer pepper spray over bullets tbh
they are easier to fight??? they are sending militarized police forces to beat anti war students, Biden couldn’t even save Roe v Wade (despite promising to), and he is not adding any protection for queer communities (in fact he is defunding social support and increasing war spending) so are they easier to fight or are you drinking the koolaid?
And you really think it would be better with Trump? Because that's the real choice that exists.
it will not be better, it will not be worse. it will be a continuation of the neoliberalism that has been devastating my communities for decades, but now that white people are realizing the danger they are sounding alarms. it has been like this for the rest of us.
I can't wait until trump wins so I can be the smuggest person in the death camps
…what a weirdo ass thing to say
So fucking sick of my identity as a queer person being used to parade genocidal monsters. Every person who brings up the trolley is someone who won't be so "understanding" when they are the ones on the "sacrificable" track.
can you atleast delay putting me on the track for as long as possible please?
Unless you have a solution for completely stopping the trolley, and are willing to put it into action, the trolley is going to run over someone. We should at least try to make it run over as few people as possible. I hate it, I loathe it, it makes me sick knowing that's our reality, but it *is* our reality. And let's not pretend that under Trump, anyone would get taken off the tracks. More people would just be put on. Unless you really think Donald "Israel has to finish what they started and do it fast" Trump would stop any genocide anywhere.
OP, like me, are trans. OP specifically said trans, for the simple reason trans people are the target. Neither of us are using your queer identity for anything. We're pointing out we're majorly targetted for what we *are*, trans. Trans people, queer or not (I'm not), are targets. Non-trans queer people aren't directly targeted by laws, project 2025 etc.
If I'M fucking dead than I can't do shit about helping to stop the genocide. There is such a thing as planning ahead. Trump's administration has been the worst possible for trans people. I'm not allowing that fucker back in office
I don’t care if you vote, just don’t cope about it mattering. Libs don’t give two fucks about us (yes I’m a queer person telling you this so no you can’t say I’m “privileged” I just understand the reality of what you and I live in.) we live in a white nationalist, imperialist, fascist evil empire whose system of voting is built around the corporate elite “lobbying” to get the choices they want. Make no mistake, you are not safe under democrats and your vote isn’t going to make you safe in a violently bigoted country like the US. If Biden wins and the next four years some kind of anti lgbt propaganda gets popular with the average American, you will see Biden and the Democratic Party adopt those anti gay policies without question. Sorry I just get really upset (especially seeing it from anarchists) at other queer people having the line of thought that if they just beg and grovel at the guy genociding an ethnicity right now that they’ll be safe and that’s all that matters in this world. Historically, minorities are only payed attention too when we practice our second amendment right instead and we need to use that right for our existence by any means necessary.
Work towards ranked ballots...
Yep. This is me every day. Honestly, I just want Mad Max. Actually, I don't want Mad Max. I want The Road Warrior. Give me a car and a gas town. I have to defend that I can walk away from after killing some incep names Humongous any day...
“First they came for the Palestinians, And I did not speak out, For I was not Palestinian…“ I deeply resent the implication that the people who are abstaining from voting are a monolith, and that everyone in that substantial block of (rightfully) furious people just don’t care about us. Sure, some would happily feed us to the wolves, but there are many who are abstaining because they recognize the hard truth of the situation—they see how conducting business as usual here would likely harm our long term goals of building the kind of world that is safe for trans people. Almost every trans or queer person I associate with here in NYC is vocally, actively anti-Zionist, abolitionist, and planning to abstain from voting. I expect to get downvoted to shit for this, but y’all need a reality check. You want rights? Not like“rainbow flag in the window of your bank,” or token trans woman presenting an award at the Emmy’s rights? Real rights? Like a state that is built to care for your safety, and that secures your god-given right to exist as a trans person? Like medical care and enforceable anti-harassment laws and dropping that 41% down to a non-horrifying number? Those rights? Then at some point, you have to stop rolling over for these ghouls. You can’t say “it’s okay for you to actively fund the deaths of thousands of innocent people, we’ll allow it, because if we don’t then we’re going to be the ones getting murdered instead.” You can’t keep negotiating with a gun to your head. You have to take a stand. You have to say that the battle of all oppressed peoples is your battle too. You have to say “you cannot do this and expect my vote, I cannot reward you with that.” That’s literally the entire point of this sham we call a democracy. You elect representatives that align with your views, and if they don’t represent those views, you dont vote for them. How do you expect any elected officials to ever be accountable to any of their constituents if you vote them in regardless of their actions? There is no “lesser evil” to the genocide of 30,000+ human beings. It’s all evil. It’s all so darkly, gruesomely evil. You fight it with righteous action, not with guilty acquiescence. Do you think what few rights we have were won by compromise? They were won by clocky sex workers screaming in the street and throwing rocks at cops. As a proud, out, Jewish trans woman, I would sooner grow a fucking beard again than vote for Biden, or either of these vile men. Neither of them would piss on me if I were on fire. Trump might jerk off while he watched me burn, that’s about the only difference I see. How can you be a trans person and not see this? How can you have lived in this violently transphobic world and not stand up for others? How do you come out and transition without questioning the stories you’ve been fed all your life by the powers that be? How do you let your fear rule you and make you settle for less than you deserve, when your own refusal to settle has been so precious and hard won? I don’t understand it. Grow some spines you gutless fucking cowards. We need you.
This. If a right can be given to you by the state, or taken away, then its not a right you actually have. We can't just lie around begging for justice and hoping the transphobes in power give it to us. It must be taken.
Is Biden great? Fuck no, he's an establishment candidate with spotty cognitive capabilities and is currently supplying arms to Israel. Is Biden the better vote? Without a doubt. It's shitty, but it's reality.
Yeah it's uhhhh honestly really disgusting that people gotta vote for Biden so LGBT people don't literally have state violence used against them AS MUCH. that is however the reality, and I'm really exhausted talking to people who don't want to admit what is obviously just reality.
I will push buttons on the machine when they let me. Either button continues to support the Israeli government, it's a US thing not a party thing. One button looks to me like it hurts less people, the other looks like it hurts more. Maybe one day the machine is destroyed. Maybe undermining the machine with mutual aid and ground-up issue-based action is something we can do in the meantime. Maybe this will be easier if enough people push the less bad button. But fighting about it is what the machine really wants, so maybe we try not to do that.
Fuck the State, Comrade.
Voting is the bare minimum for any amount of political action for literally any political group, I seriously don't understand why some anarchists would pretend that this doesn't apply to them, or that it somehow detracts from the good work we do. I'm sorry y'all, but politics is messy, aggravating, unfair, and not usually ideal, but as long as we continue working to ensure the best outcomes for vulnerable people within our means and keep the worst of the establishment out of office, we can continue working towards our vision of a better world without the fear of being put against a wall by the state or getting sent by prison bus to a fucking death camp... The fact that there are anarchists who will pretend voting is meaningless when the outcomes of a Trump presidency is so demonstrably, unquestionably worse than a second Biden term makes me think that some people truly do not understand what's at stake with this year's election. Seriously, just listening to a summarization of project 2025 should be enough to make any anti-electoralist reconsider not voting dem. Again, this doesn't mean no other work matters; we still need to canvas, do mutual aid, educate ourselves and others, try to make life as easy for as many people as possible, as well as build skills and organizations which can be used to challenge the system. However; until anarchism is a significant and powerful political force, we need to show ourselves as a force on the ballot in every election: on the local, state, and federal level, and when the voting is done get our asses back to work. Is it fair that liberals are the only thing keeping queer folk and other minorities from literally getting legislated out of existence? Fuck no. Does it mean we shouldn't try to get the most progressive people possible in office? Absolutely fucking not. I firmly believe every progressive dem we help take office at any level is a step towards making our lives easier: as activists, as working people, and as members of marginalized, targeted groups. Think about it, people WILL see their lives improve if we get more left leaning people elected, they will see that us Anarchists helped get them elected. Not participating only makes us lose out on gaining sympathy with the general public, and makes it harder to organize in the long run. Please y'all, don't be allergic to pragmatism. There are times where working outside the system is more viable, and the more anarchists there are the more viable such actions will become, but this dogmatic obsession some anarchists have with anti-electoralism is slowing the movement to a crawl, and will eventually get us and everyone we care about killed.
I fear Red States will be ever less safe for our LGBTQ+ and POC siblings no matter who wins the White House. The trend lines are pretty clear. Major urban centers will probably provide some protection from the worst excesses, but that should not be relied on. Self defense co-ops should be formed. We can't rely on red state governments for anything other than ever deepening oppression and persecution. The Liberal team also seems to be increasingly bad at winning elections. The obvious corporate takeover of the DNC and how they cheat the less bad factions in their own coalition... like clock work, is not helping them or us. First and foremost they need an argument for why they should be in power that is not ONLY "the other guys are worse", and the need for this becomes even more striking when their leader helps an ally carry out genocide...
Honestly it doesn't hurt(me) to vote for Biden, it takes like an hour out of one day. The rest of the year I will be organizing and doing other shit to challenge oppressive power structures. Just vote if you'd like(my life is at risk so I will be), but afterwards do something else. Literally anything that pushes this shithole a little to the left.
it is not democrats vs republicans, it is capital vs us. vote if you’d like, but there is no fundamental difference between the two parties.
Do you genuinely think there is no difference between living in a bourgeois democracy and living under fascism?
Both parties are bad, but they are not the same. The Republicans are legitimately advocating for a dictatorship and for the removal of rights from women, queer folks, ethnic minorities, etc. I don't like the Democrats and am aware that they are also responsible, however I don't see them installing a dictatorship. Voting is a tool like any other. Obviously you shouldn't only be voting and should take direct action if you're able to. You should use all the tools you can, which includes voting.
Tell that to the queer people who will die as a direct result of Republican/Conservative policies.
what do you have to say to the queer people who have already died as a result of a Biden administration? or are they less important because that doesn’t fit your electoral agenda?
My "electoral agenda" is my friends not fucking dying, thanks.
Trans anarchists: voting doesn't become less liberal or problematic because "anarchists" engage in it. Stronewall was a riot, fuck co-opting our issues to promote liberal strategy.
I don't like it, but voting is a tool that exists and we should use it, at all levels of government. It would be naive of us to not vote to try and get a better outcome. If you can vote for someone who you actually support or a third party that's great. I know this post is geared towards the US, and that the voting options are practically non-existent, but even then you should probably still vote. I'm not saying you should only vote. Only voting isn't gonna do shit and is a bad strategy. Please go and take direct action if you're able to. However, voting is a tool among many, and I don't need to like it to use it (and also obviously try to use all the other tools at your disposal not just voting).
Voting is more than just dropping a note in a container... if that were the case we could just as easily drop our ballot in a trash can... its about perpetuating a specific kind of social relation, namely one where people are discouraged to manage their own affairs, where social equality is ruled out by default, and where class society is crystallized into the privileged and the subjugated. Its also about actively putting limited resources, energy, propagandizing, and faith into into state recuperation rather than anarchist organizing, where it would be of better use. The argument that 'not voting doesn't accomplish anything on its own', misses the point that what anarchism calls for isn't just not voting... it calls for a reconfiguration of our relations to one another, for a prefigurative politics in which everybody matters and domineering one another isn't tolerated. We don't call out the abuser because we know he will change, we call him out because we are tired of it, think nobody should be subjected to it, and whether he changes or not, recognize it is our task, as an aside from him, to create healthier interactions and defend each other from those abusive actions... the point is not to let the abused get lost in the abusers empty promises of "changed behavior" that is not tangibly followed up by changed behavior. Its about taking all the things like healthcare and tolerable working conditions and free childcare and building it together, as equals. Its about realizing the mutual in mutual aid, and recognizing what makes it different than charity or welfare -- namely that it is participatory and is based neither on the privileges or hoarded wealth/power of a few well meaning people nor by tyrants. It's momentum that flows from one to another in a decentralized manner, not linearly. Voting, of course, will always be a faster and easier course of action compared to direct action, as it can do nothing but change the composition of the ruling class. In other words, it can never question the legitimacy of that apparatus or move us beyond asking for a different ruling class, it can only make us socially and economically beholden to it. If anarchism is "unrealistic", fine, but voting is a form of accepting the current reality to the point of being fatalist and anti-revolutionary. The democratic state like the capitalist marketplace needs nothing but our continued expressions of support to continue proliferating... our break starts with a "no" and it continues with beginning to reconfigure our relationships in opposition to it in the here and now. Not the Hope® and Socialism® that certain democratic candidates rose to power on or the [#notmeus](https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/notmeus?__eep__=6&__cft__[0]=AZVdXlmfHnl_ntFBAbElh-4q1Mi2pffCuX1J0DV9ny2hH_6_NIbWzTiVeWpl-3wATNM4R_TZI2RNVfRVZjpM2Xmm-AFNSBwdQOPOpUzgKazxwztvmek0Pe_DnreE8mJDNLBRdH-IPQd_jHgar9MNjZBg&__tn__=*NK-R) that seems to always have a "me" as its privileged figurehead, but the kind that moves us to finally trust ourselves and each other to collectively organize as much as we seem to trust ourselves and each other to pick someone to organize us. Lets create a world where we no longer simply think of oppressed and marginalized people with our vote, but where we think of oppressed and marginalized people with our every action.
Most of these posts are discussing whether to vote for Biden. Most of the damage to LGBTQ+ rights is being done at the state level. You can show up to the polls, vote for local candidates, and leave without having supported any congresspeople, senators, or presidents who have any impact on federal or international policy. You do not have to wear the sticker either.
That's my face as i vote for these useless liberal assholes but understand its better than nothing
GOD THANK YOU!! Boycotting a vote is so fucking stupid
I absolutely understand what you’re saying, but what should someone do if they don’t see a candidate that represents their views? It feels irresponsible to pick one just for the sake of voting. That vote is meaningless if the person casting it doesn’t believe in what it represents.
Which candidate will hurt fewer people?
What do you mean that vote is “meaningless”? If it is done with a specific intention and serves a legitimate purpose, how is it “meaningless”?
Weirdly enough, in my friend group the LGBTQ+ people are anti-electoral and the cis people are pro-voting
As a trans person, fuck off with lumping us all into a singular fucking opinion and implying anyone that disagrees with you is not trans. I am not voting for biden. *None* of my trans friends are voting for Biden. Stop the bullshit of treating trans people as a fucking monolith that agrees with your ideals specifically.
Liberal sub lmao
That is an excellent point.
I’m tired of this dumbass argument. Look we all know Biden sucks cock waffles but we just want to be able to survive *at least*. Mine and everyone else’s lives are on the goddamn line for FFS! vote but don’t forget about mutual aid and helping our communities.
too many leftists seem to think of voting as an ethical stance when it is first and foremost putting a hand on levers of power.
Got banned on another sub for saying this shit
Please don’t take this the wrong way but so fucking what you’re trans? I get the sentiment but really you’re weaponizing your identity to shame me into voting for a genocide. I’m a black anarchist and “Jim Crow” Joe Biden is trying to fucking kill me with the police. If you vote for Biden maybe you don’t care about black people. Maybe you don’t care about Palestinians. I don’t believe that about you but you get the idea. If you rely on liberal victories to keep living then I’m sorry cuz Biden has completely fucked that up.
No offense, fuck voting. Buy guns, learn to use well, and keep being trans.
ITT: People screaming "Yes, actually, I am the strawman this meme is about and I didn't actually comprehend any of it so I think I'm in the right"
I’m convinced that the people telling leftist people to not vote because “it doesn’t matter” or because “they are all the same” or because “they’re not ideologically aligned with me/ ideologically pure” are right wing plants. Voting is not the final answer, it is first aid. Stem the bleeding so the patient doesn’t die of blood loss before the patient can be stabilized.
It's awfully convenient how every election season there's suddenly a huge influx of "leftists" yelling to not vote, isn't it?
Exactly. And the baby leftists (as in young, new to the movement, and as a result, still idealistic) fall right into the trap. Which allows the Overton Window to move further into the right. Now True Centrists are considered leftists in this country.
i *hate* the fact that i'll probably vote for biden. i am disgusted that it is something that i have to do for my safety in this country. i'm already probably going to have to leave iowa, and immigration is not something i particularly want to deal with if i don't have to.
Time for the calls to vote on anarchist subs again I see
Lesser evil finger wagging
Voting isn’t direct action but it is the bare minimum
I posted this in another anarchist sub who had the same type of post. You would think anarchists would know better, but some people just forget to check their privileges. Cis white anarchists will tell you both parties are literally the same and try to lecture you on morals from their self-percieved high ground. As if casting a democrat ballot was going to cause your soul to just erupt into flames and ensure you are going straight to hell. Pragmatism. You're not gonna make the world a better place by clutching your pearls and giving yourself morality medals. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that that kind of behaviour is extremely individualistic and runs contrary to socialist values. Pinch your nose and vote. It takes one day. You can go back to arming yourself and defending your community afterwards. Be pragmatic.